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Welcome to Question Time which tonight comes from Carlisle. | :00:08. | :00:21. | |
Sitting round the table with me tonight, the leader | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
The general secretary of Britain's biggest union, | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
And from the free market think-tank, the Institute | :00:33. | :00:42. | |
of Economic Affairs, Kate Andrews. | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
As always, watching from home, you can make comments | :00:46. | :01:01. | |
about what you hear on our Facebook site, on Twitter or text 83981, | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
press the Red Button to see what others are saying. | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
I always thought this Red Button was on the television set, | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
I expect you know that, but I've never tried to do that, | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
This is a question from somebody we haven't seen | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
Well, hopefully not, especially if the Prime Minister | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
I mean I think, first of all, we need to make certain | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
that we don't get into a project fear about Brexit. | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
That was the mistake that the remain campaign made last time. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Brexit is with us, we are leaving the European Union, | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
but the important thing, as far as I'm concerned, | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
is to make certain that it's a Brexit that works | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
It's a Brexit that defends jobs, investment, defends our communities | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
and, most importantly of course, defends workers' rights. | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
That's something that at the moment the Government's approach, | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
the Prime Minister's approach, being a so-called hard Brexit, | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
appears to be not listening - not listening to employers, | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
I understand the Prime Minister would not want to show her hand. | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
I'm a negotiator, you need to keep things close to your chest, | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
but there needs to be parliamentary scrutiny at different stages | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
and it's vitally important that the voice of working people | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
Wherever I go in manufacturing at the moment, companies are saying | :02:33. | :02:45. | |
that they are concerned about the future, | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
the uncertainty, the lack of investment that might come. | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
I'll give you a very quick example, David. | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
I met with the president of Ford Europe, just before | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
Christmas, he tells me that Ford have just made a decision to invest | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
I asked him were we going to get a chunk of that. | :03:03. | :03:12. | |
He said, at the moment, the word from Detroit is, no, | :03:13. | :03:14. | |
we can't invest in Britain because we are concerned | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
I met 200 of my senior shop stewards and conveners last Saturday | :03:18. | :03:30. | |
from the automotive sector, a jewel in the manufacturing crown | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
at the moment, and already we've got BMW talking about the new electric | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
We've even got Nissan, the company that we thought, | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
and we were delighted that they'd reached an agreement | :03:47. | :03:48. | |
with the Government, now saying that, depending | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
on what Brexit is, they will review their position. | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
So you don't sound very optimistic, but we'll come back | :03:53. | :03:54. | |
But, Ruth Davidson, a divorce turning messy? | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
I mean, what's been really strange about the Brexit debate... | :03:58. | :04:06. | |
Well, I think that you saw from the tone | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
of the Prime Minister yesterday, it was a conciliatory tone. | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
You saw from Donald Tusk, when he accepted the letter, | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
he said that his overwhelming feeling was sadness. | :04:15. | :04:16. | |
I think we have to recognise that this isn't a zero-sum game. | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
This isn't if somebody wins, somebody else loses. | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
In fact, if it turns into a point scoring fight, | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
I think what's really interesting in this is, | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
it has united people across a whole different spectrum. | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
So I'm the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party, | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
I stood on a platform last year with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
of London, I'm sitting next to Len McCloskey here today, | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
three very different sets of politics across the spectrum, | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
but three things we all have in common. | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
We were all remainers, we all recognise that Brexit | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
is happening and the UK will leave the European Union and we all | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
believe that there is a positive outcome that can happen if we go | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
about these negotiations in the right way. | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
That's nothing to do with our politics, but that's | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
Now, it will be difficult, it will be complex, but I think | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
that we have to support and input to the Prime Minister to make sure | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
that she's got the best negotiating hand and, | :05:05. | :05:06. | |
no matter where you are, we can help with that. | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
But it also means - and Len's quite right - | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
it means we should be making sure that we're looking at this | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
But Len was saying he knows how to negotiate, of course he does, | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Was the Prime Minister right to raise security? | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
We've had a number of questions on that, as one of the things that | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
might be withdrawn if the Government didn't get what it wanted? | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
I think that's a misrepresentation of what was said. | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
What the Prime Minister was saying - "In security terms, | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened." | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
What it means is we need to make sure that we get an agreement. | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
This something the Prime Minister put out in her Lancaster House | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
She put the 12 points that were so important for us. | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
Now, we know that we're - and this is again where it comes | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
back to the zero-sum game - we know that we're all safer | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
if we do get a deal and we work together. | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
We know that we all lose out if we start trying to score points | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
So that's why making sure that it's not - | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
whatever Mr Brown said - a messy divorce, that we don't | :06:08. | :06:20. | |
I'll come to members of the audience in just a moment. | :06:21. | :06:40. | |
Well, I agree with Ruth, but that is exactly | :06:41. | :06:40. | |
what the Government is doing and I think - What is exactly | :06:41. | :06:40. | |
I think they've played a very dangerous game | :06:41. | :06:41. | |
Well, scoring points, trying to turn this into a zero-sum gain. | :06:42. | :06:41. | |
When they were asked to clarify what that line meant in the letter, | :06:42. | :06:42. | |
the Home Secretary said, "we are the largest contributor | :06:43. | :06:42. | |
to Europol, so if we left, then we'd take our information with us." | :06:43. | :06:42. | |
That is quite clearly a Government that seems to be threatening | :06:43. | :06:42. | |
that we would remove our co-operation on security matters | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
from the EU if we don't get the free trade agreement that we want. | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
Now, that is - if you think about that for a moment, | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
That is a Prime Minister who appears to be suggesting | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
that we would side with terrorists and that we would prevent other | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
European countries from getting information that may | :07:00. | :07:00. | |
keep their citizens safe, knowing full well that in return | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
that would prevent us from getting access that would keep our | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
The Prime Minister has had 24-hours to clarify that | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
that's not what she meant, she hasn't done it, | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
If she didn't mean that, she needs to explain why | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
she included this astonishing phrase in her letter yesterday and chose | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
to make empty threats to the 27 countries that we are currently | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
seeking to reach a trade agreement with. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
Which ever way you look at this - Lisa, that's nonsense, | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
- which ever way you look at this, it's an act | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
of serious self-harm to the United Kingdom. | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
It is absolute nonsense, it's the worst type of scaremongering. | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
The only British politicians that are siding with terrorists, | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
as you put it, are your leader and your Shadow Chancellor - | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
Not a single member - Are the only British politicians | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
that side with terrorists in this country. | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
Incredibly cheap, and not a single member of your party has been | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
out on the airwaves, in the last 24-hours, | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
denying that the Prime Minister is threatening to withdraw | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
co-operation from our European neighbours unless we | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
What they have said is that we need to ensure that we get co-operation | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
Just to clarify, in what respect are you saying that | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell side with terrorists? | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
They walked the past the people that wore the British Army uniforms | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
and they walked up to the bombers with the balaclavas | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
I think you should do well to defend your own party at the moment. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
The woman in the centre, at the back there. | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
Given that Theresa May has said this, is it wise to go ahead | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
with the plan for more than doubling the size of the Sellafield site | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
with three new nuclear reactors that are now, | :08:41. | :08:41. | |
we're told, to be built by the South Koreans? | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
The woman in red there, on the right. | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
Is not one of the problems that this divorce is going to be based | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
It's going to take at least two years negotiation | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
Yeah, of course, it will take two years because that's | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
part of the process, part of Article 50. | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
The original question was - is this divorce going to get messy? | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
Well, there are certain people and certain parties | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
within our own House of Commons who want it to be as messy | :09:17. | :09:16. | |
as possible in an attempt to ensure that we actually never leave | :09:17. | :09:17. | |
the European Union and they really want to keep us in. | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
I think what's happening here at the moment is posturing, | :09:25. | :09:33. | |
it's the phoney war, people are setting out | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
But, in the end, money always talks and I think we will come to a good | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
We have a huge trading deficit with the EU, | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
We're its biggest marketplace and, indeed, there are four | :09:44. | :09:53. | |
to six million jobs on the continent which are dependent on our trade. | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
And if we do sign that deal, it will be mutually beneficial, | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
not just for the EU, but for us as well. | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
But the great thing is, after that, we can then go on and sign trade | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
We can reconnect with the rest of the world - | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
with India, with China, with the United States. | :10:10. | :10:10. | |
We've got a great future as a result are of Brexit, | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
but it has to be the Brexit that people voted for on June 23rd. | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
That is a Brexit whereby we get full control of our borders, | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
a real return to our democracy, full control of our waters, | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
once again and, as I say, take our seat back on the world | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
trade organisation and sign trade deals all over the globe. | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
Gordon Brown, you asked the question, what do you think? | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
I think sometimes there can be a very big difference | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
between economic theory and practical politics | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
and we've already just heard, just going round the panel, | :10:47. | :10:48. | |
it's getting a bit messy amongst the panel, never mind | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
when the actual real players get down to lock horns. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
What do you fear when you say "messy"? | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
That the United Kingdom could be a much poorer, | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
In theory, it could work well, but in practice I fear it might not. | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
I'm cautiously optimistic, certainly more optimistic than Len. | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
And, hopefully, to cheer your spirits a bit, more investment has | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
been coming to the UK since the referendum, | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
?16 billion extra in foreign investment has come here. | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
London was, once again, named the financial capital | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
and centre of the world just this week. | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
So I'm cautiously optimistic, but you're completely | :11:27. | :11:27. | |
We haven't left yet, it's going to be a two year process. | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
Divorces can get very messy when personalities get involved, | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
but if the politicians think of the children or us, so to speak, | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
The UK Government could do something tomorrow, | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
now that we triggered Article 50, to make it very clear that they want | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
a good Brexit on good terms and they should immediately give EU | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
nationals right to remain in this country regardless | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
Some will argue that this is ceding ground, that she must wait | :11:56. | :12:08. | |
until the European Union agrees to do it for UK citizens, | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
but I have to say, if Theresa May were to do that tomorrow | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
and her Government were to do that tomorrow and the EU | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
were to refuse UK nationals, I think even the likes | :12:18. | :12:19. | |
of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron would change their minds | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
about the referendum result because that would not want to be | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
a club that we would want to be a part of. | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
I read today in the papers that Francois Hollande stated | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
that he has his own agenda within his own country | :12:37. | :12:38. | |
Of course, there's a general election next month and I know that | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
Germany has a general election in September, Italy next February. | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
Do you think the changing of guard is going to change the dynamics | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
of the actual negotiations because people are going to say | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
different things, maybe a new party will come in and maybe push the, | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
sort of, agenda to a different, sort of, different way, really? | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
Yeah, it's a very fluent situation within the political arena, | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
right throughout Europe at the moment. | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
Kate's just said the Government could do something tomorrow. | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
I tell you what else the Government could do tomorrow. | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
They could make it clear that workers' rights | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
I'm going to come to that question, so I'm going to actually | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
We'll come to it, it's the next question we've got here. | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
Ruth Davidson, do you just want to comment on this business | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
that the Prime Minister could now, immediately today, say that EU | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
nationals could stay here, the point that she made? | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
I think, if it were up to me, you know, I would have liked | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
to have seen it done, but I'm not the Prime Minister | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
of the country and I don't also have responsibility for the hundreds | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
of thousands of Brits that live abroad. | :13:40. | :13:41. | |
She's got to balance the responsibilities she has | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
for people currently living in Britain as well as people who are | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
You would liked to have seen her do that? | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
Like I say, if it were down to me, but then I'm not carrying | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
the responsibility that she has and I don't have to, in my sense, | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
I don't have to balance the same responsibilities that she does. | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
She might find a lot more goodwill overseas if she was prepared | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
How much danger will there be to workers' rights | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
Len, I will come to you because you've raised it twice already. | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
Kate Andrews, the danger to workers' right after the Great Repeal Bill. | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
How much danger do you think there'll be because the British | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
parliament will be able to change anything and everything | :14:26. | :14:27. | |
But also, very importantly, you will be able to vote | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
for new politicians, for a new parliament if you don't | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
I think it's incredibly unlikely that the regulations | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
we're bringing over, especially when it's | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
related to workers' rights, are going to be dramatically rolled | :14:43. | :14:44. | |
back or repealed in the United Kingdom. | :14:45. | :14:46. | |
I think this is a country that very much upholds workers' rights | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
The idea, simply because it's coming to the United Kingdom ,they're | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
going to be thrown out, I just don't fully buy that. | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
I really do think that we need to be implementing sunset clauses | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
into this Great Repeal Bill which means that bureaucrats can't | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
sit around and take a long time to decide which workers' rights | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
are good for the UK and which ones need to be expanded and which ones | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
If we implement these sunset clauses, it can get bureaucrats | :15:12. | :15:24. | |
to make these decisions sooner rather than later and then you, | :15:25. | :15:25. | |
the British people, will get to know what deal you're getting and bring | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
in new representation if that's what you want. | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
Paul Nuttall, Theresa May has talked about if things go badly we'd | :15:32. | :15:33. | |
have the freedom to set competitive tax and embrace policies that | :15:34. | :15:34. | |
Would they include changes to workers' rights, the number | :15:35. | :15:35. | |
of hours people could work, that kind of thing in | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
I don't think they do, beyond that, calling it the great repeal Bill is | :15:38. | :15:51. | |
wrong, it should be called the great incorporation bill because we are | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
incorporating EU law into British law, we are not really repealing | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
anything. It's a huge job. Please don't underestimate how big this is. | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
There's been 52,000 pieces of EU legislation which have affected this | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
country since 19906 alone. The majority of this, of the work on | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
this will be mainly technical. It's taken out mentions of EU | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
institutions such as the European Parliament, the European Council and | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
commission which are incorporated into these pieces of law which will | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
no longer be relevant once we have left the European Union. But, also | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
remember when it comes to workers' rights, a lot of workers' rights | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
were put in place before we were members of the European economic, | :16:34. | :16:42. | |
such as workers' rights, equal pay. I encourage the Government, don't | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
mess around with workers' rights during this debate or this work on | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
the great repeal bill. If you do want to change workers' rights, take | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
it to Parliament after we've left the European, let's then have a | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
debate and we can go forward then into the 2020 general election on | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
that platform and see how they get on. But that is a good thing, David | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
because... All right. We can have an election on it because at least it's | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
democratic, unlike the European Commission, which meets in secret | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
and initiates its own laws. We have your point. | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
APPLAUSE. Anyone who believes that this is not | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
going to be used to attack workers' rights is not living in the real | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
world. Leading members of the Conservative Party have already | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
indicated that they're looking forward to reducing the frightening | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
thing is... Who's said what? A number of leading members, Liam Fox | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
for one, a number of leading members have said that a lot of workers' | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
rights are nothing more than regulations that restrict business | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
and the reality is that if we don't make it clear that we are going to | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
defend the rites of British people, Kate says that we are well known for | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
workers' rights, we have the worst protected workforce in the whole of | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
Europe, despite the fact that we are the nation that, having defeated | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
fascism at the end of the Second World War, gave Europe all of the | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
freedoms they currently have. Yet German workers, Italian workers, | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
French and all the rest of them, have got better protections than | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
British workers. So my challenge to the Prime Minister, and I'm hoping | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
Ruth and others will agree with me, is to put people's mind at rest by | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
making it clear that all workers' rights that are going to be | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
transferred indomestic rights will have the same protections as the | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
fixed term Parliament act which means that 66% of Parliament would | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
be needed to change those current rights. If she did that tomorrow, | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
that would go a long way to ease people's concerns. My fear is she | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
may not do it. All right. So you want to see laws passed by | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
Westminster, abandoning the normal 50% plus 1 and going to this 60%, so | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
it's two thirds for particular laws? There is a precedent within... All | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
right. Legislation to do that. Ruth Davidson? The great repeals act will | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
give ministers an opportunity and they have already said they are | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
going to modify some of the laws. Ministers can do that and courts | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
can, without any reference to parent. That's the fear. That's what | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
we have got to defend. APPLAUSE. | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
Ruth Davidson? I know that Len's in the mid offal an election right now | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
but let's bring this back down-to-earth for a second. He talks | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
about leading members of the Conservative Party and what they've | :19:44. | :19:45. | |
said. Let's look at the leading member of the Conservative Party | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
which is the Prime Minister and exactly what she's said. She's said | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
that workers' rites currently inshrined under EU law will be | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
coming imported wholesale to the United Kingdom. With modifications. | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
They'll be maintain and protected. She's said they can be built upon | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
and extended. Let's not fear monger. She's been absolutely categorically | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
clear. Let's not try and win votes off the back of this, Len, yes? It's | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
about protecting workers, it's about protecting workers' rites. She's | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
quiveren that assurance. I'll fight for my members and workers' rights. | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
She's talked about modifications. Let's clarify | :20:30. | :20:31. | |
ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Hang on. What is modifications? You | :20:32. | :20:40. | |
are the one that's making the... She said. She said it. You can't give us | :20:41. | :20:51. | |
any examples. The Prime Minister initially said she was going to lift | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
employment law out of Europe and put it in to domestic legislation. Music | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
to my ears. She then said, we lift the laws, put them into domestic | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
legislation with some modifications. Can I read this out to you? Len, | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
you've had your turn. A as we translate the body of European law | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
into domestic ing arelayingses, we'll ensure workers' rights are | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
fully protected and maintained. Stop scaremongering. It's not | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
scaremongering. APPLAUSE. | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
Len, you've had your say. You, mam? Len says that our workers' rights | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
aren't the best in the world. However, everybody from all over the | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
world wants to come and work in the UK so they must be good. I'll read a | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
quote back to Ruth. We are clear about what we want from Europe. We | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
say yes to the single market. That was the manifesto that your Prime | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
Minister and you stood on in the last election. That is the manifesto | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
that the Prime Minister is busy ripping up without having been | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
elected herself as she goes about these negotiations about Brexit. | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
There is a whole host of issues from the single market to raising | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
national insurance contributions. She's already in the very short time | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
she's been in office gone back on her word. I think there is another | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
reason nobody on this panel has raised yet, why we should be | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
seriously concerned about the profoundly undemocratic nature of | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
the great repeal Bill. Yes it's true that the Prime Minister is planning | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
to take 40 years of laws that we've negotiated with our European union | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
counterparts and transcribed them into this bill but she's also giving | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
herself as part of this process huge sweeping powers to make | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
retrospective changes to that legislation with virtually no | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
scrutiny. The upshot of this is that when she and her Tory ministers go | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
off to negotiate trade deals with people like China and the United | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
States, all it will take is for those Governments to say to her, | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
scrap those rights and we'll give you your trade deal and she will | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
have given herself the power to do it. I say this - she's got a mandate | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
to leave the EU and it's right now that we respect that and that we | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
move on and work out how to get the best teal for Britain. This | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
unelected Prime Minister has absolutely no mandate to drive down | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
the living standards, jobs and living conditions. Do you want to | :23:33. | :23:42. | |
answer? The Prime Minister has laid out what it is she wants to achieve. | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
She's said in the first instance she'll take all of the European law | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
that does exist and create it into UK law so there is no holes in | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
our... Sorry, I was thinking of the single market. Lisa said she was on | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
record as saying... It's in the Tory party manifesto. Gave her her | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
mandate to govern. 17 .5 million people voted to leave the European | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
Union OK. Now, in large part, not everybody, but in large part, much | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
of that was based on changes to immigration. The other 27 nations | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
have said that to stay part of the single market, the four freedoms, | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
which includes free movement of people are indiv Isible. The Prime | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
Minister said she'll seek a free trade agreement with the European | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Union so we are able to export and trade with the other member states. | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
Why should we believe that? You, there? It said in the papers today | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
they are going to push up to 1,000 pieces of legislation through | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
without scrutiny. I'm concerned the Conservatives will have sole | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
authority to push the pieces of legislation through. | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
APPLAUSE. Paul Nuttall, are you in favour of | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
the repatriation and the legislation without scrutiny? Well, obviously | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
without democratic scrutiny, it causes concern. However, David Davis | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
has made it perfectly clear that those pieces of legislation, they'll | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
just be technical changes in terms of taking European Union terms out | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
of, for example, European Parliament, European Council and | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
what not. How do you know they'll be technical and won't slip in other | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
things? I'm going on the word of David Davis on this, but the point | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
Lisa made before about the Conservatives breaking a manifesto | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
pledge in 2015 of keeping us in the single market, I just don't buy it | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
because the world is a very different place now, people voted to | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
leave the European Union, they knew they were voting to leave the single | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
market. David Cameron said voting to leave the EU means leaving the | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
single market. Osborne said the same. Michael Gove said the same. | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
Boris Johnson said the same. Total rewriting of history. It's not. Even | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
in the leaflet the Government sent to every single household at the | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
cost of ?9 million to the taxpayer, it said quite clearly, leaving the | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
European Union means leaving the single market. | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
APPLAUSE. Kate? Look, these Henry VIII laws | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
which is what they are being called where the Government is bringing | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
over legislation but change it slightly because we may not have a | :26:16. | :26:25. | |
law with the same name, there is no functioning opposition and nobody | :26:26. | :26:27. | |
will be held to account. APPLAUSE. | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
Unless you want to abandon every piece of EU legislation and start | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
from scratch it would be incredibly dangerous to the workers' rights, | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
you have to bring them over and change them. The big point is that | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
you will now have the ability, if you don't like the way they are | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
being changed or if you think the Government is making too many | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
liberties, you get to vote and change it. How? In the general | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
election. There is no general election. There is no functioning | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
opposition. Len McCluskey, do you have a functioning opposition? You | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
have given 15 months to jeer bin to change his ways -- Jeremy Corbyn 15 | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
months to change his ways? I said baize Jeremy Corbyn is the only | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
political litre I've ever met, including unfortunately people on | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
this platform who don't have an ego, I've indicated that Jeremy himself | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
would be someone who'd want to look at the situation in say 15 months' | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
time. Hang on, before you leave that, why do you want to wait 15 | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
months? Because we are talking about Jeremy Corbyn being elected by | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
landslide victory on two occasions now. My union, my executive | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
supporters, the policy conference with over 1,000 delegates | :27:46. | :27:47. | |
overwhelmingly supported him a second time. Why? Because what his | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
views and policies are coincide with what Unite wants. He's | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
anti-austerity, so are my members. He's in favour of an industrial | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
strategy. What is with this 15 months business? He wants to save | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
the National Health Service. So do my members. But what happens 15 | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
months from now? I'll tell you what. He has been unmercifully attacked | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
day in day out by the right-wing media since he was elected. But I | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
want to remind everyone, your audience and viewers at home, first | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
of all, the problems in the Labour Party didn't start with Jeremy | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
Corbyn being elected, they started 20 years ago when we started to lose | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
the support of ordinary working people. I would make this point. | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
Before the disastrous coup that happened last summer, the opinion | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
polls, Labour were neck and neck. One thing is clear. The Britishlike | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
rat will not vote for a party that is divided and so the message within | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
the Labour Party, the Parliamentary Labour Party and the rest of the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
party is that we have to unite, unite behind policies. I think you | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
have made the point. Sorry to stop you. See if a decent honest man can | :28:59. | :29:07. | |
break through this horrible media barrier to put those points. | :29:08. | :29:08. | |
APPLAUSE. All right. This horrible, horrible | :29:09. | :29:16. | |
media barrier, as you put it, also included Lisa Nandy leaving the | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
Shadow Cabinet and supporting somebody else for the leadership. So | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
what do you say? Tubb obvious that I don't agree with Len. We have had | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
the leadership contest -- it's obvious. We were on different sides | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
in the debate and I certainly don't agree that we were doing well in the | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
opinion polls before I left the Shadow Cabinet. I think there is a | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
responsibility on us all to do better, to be really honest with | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
you, not without being an opposition to the Government but providing a | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
clear alternative. What I would like to say to you is this, there is | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
quite a narrative developing in British politics at the moment which | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
I think is quite lazy and I think is quite dangerous, that there is no | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
real opposition to this Government at the moment. I have to say this, | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
that that is not what I see when I go down to Parliament on a weekly | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
basis because in the last few weeks, I've seen Labour MPs working with | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
MPs from all of the different political parties, dragging the | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
Government against their will into Parliament to hold them to account | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
on issues on everything from Brexit to the National Health Service. We | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
have worked with SNP MPs, we have worked with liberal MPs, we have | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
worked with backbench Tory MPs, a small handful of whom occasionally | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
find a conscience, and we have worked with much bigger groups of | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
people outside including Len's Trade Union. That is how we win. | :30:34. | :30:42. | |
I'm interested in Len who is a believer in Jeremy Corbyn talking | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
about opinion polls. Today, Jeremy Corbyn's been in office abouts 18 | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
months. 18 months into Ed Miliband's leadership the Labour Party was | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
polling 44% and it was 10% ahead of the Tories it went on to lose the | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
next election. Today the Labour Party is polling at 26% and it is 18 | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
points behind the Tory party. So that's the size of the drop off that | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
there has been in Labour. You might think Because of divisions. It's | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
because of lack of leadership. You might think I love this. I don't. | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
Yes, I'm a Tory but a democrat. The Labour Party is having a disservice | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
to itself by keeping Jeremy Corbyn in place a disservice to our country | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
and democracy. It relies upon the idea if the Government falls there | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
is a Government in waiting ready to go. It relies on that tension | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
between Government and Opposition to walk a line. I hear a new coming | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
person in the Labour Party that will be the next leader. Whether it's | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
Clive Lewis or Lisa Nandy. Do something about it and get in there. | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
If it's not going to be you, back someone else. This country needs a | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
new Labour Party leader. APPLAUS That is the I think ringing | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
endorsement I need like a hole in the head, to be honest. I just | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
spoiled it for you. The woman in the second row from the back. I have the | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
greatest sympathy for Lisa I think you're in a Government you dwoont to | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
be part of it. For Len saying Jeremy Corbyn not having an ego. The Labour | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
Party is an absolute disgrace it's fine standing by policies wanting to | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
support our NHS if you are never going to get elected it's pointless. | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
I'm a paid up Labour Party he member and it's absolute disgrace to see | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
the state of Labour at the moment. The man in blue. The Labour Party is | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
a total disgrace. It's not doing the job it is being paid for nor is | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. Len say it is will take 15 months to sort him out. Will | :32:45. | :32:53. | |
it be 15 months to have a Brexit to remove Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
Party? The woman there. Is it time that David Miliband came back? Is | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
that what you would like to see? Not personally, no. Why do you suggest | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
it then? Spicing things up. Destroy Labour or help them? I think they | :33:08. | :33:28. | |
are doing a good enough job of destroying themselves at the moment? | :33:29. | :33:29. | |
Domestic politics, another question. Before we go to this question. | :33:30. | :33:30. | |
Question Time will be in Gillingham next week. We were going to be in | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
Maidstone. If you were thinking of coming to Maidstone think again, go | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
over the motorway and come to Gillingham. That is next week. There | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
is a pause for Easter. We will be in Oxford on the 27th April. The | :33:38. | :33:39. | |
details on the screen. I will give them at the end. If you are in | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
Gillingham or in that area and want to come, this is your chance. Let us | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
have a question from Hani Cox. With no MPs and Brexit achieved, is Ukip | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
finished? Your turn, Paul, to take the rap. | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
APPLAUSE. He lost Douglas Carswell, he has nos MPs. Leader of a party | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
that has no MPs in the House of Commons even though he is an MP? All | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
right, you don't have to repeat it! At least my own parliamentary party | :34:12. | :34:20. | |
is united! Look, Ukip doesn't need an MP to be influential. OK. Let's | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
not forget back in January 2013 Ukip forced the then British Prime | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
Minister, David Cameron, into giving a referendum he never wanted to give | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
it. He only gave that referendum because Ukip was chomping at the | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
heels of the Conservative Party going up in the polls doing well in | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
local elections and we forced that issue without having Ukip back sides | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
in the House of Commons. We will continue to influence politics. We | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
will continue to be the guard dogs of Brexit in an attempt to ensure we | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
get the Brexit people voted for on June 23rd. We believe we have great | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
opportunities going forward, moving into Labour working-class areas. We | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
are speaking before about Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour Party. We feel | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
they don't represent working people any more. There is a huge bank of | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
patriotic working people who feel, no affinity, with a guy who says | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
nice things about the ire ya or a Shadow Home Secretary who thinks | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
anyone who voted Brexit is a racist. We have great opportunities. We are | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
a 12% in the opinion polls. Membership continues - 10%. No, 12% | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
yesterday. 10% this week. One point behind the Liberal Democrats. Whose | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
poll? I think it was YouGov yesterday. It was 10%? A different | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
one then polls, if you believe them. You live and die by the polls. We | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
have big elections coming up in May. I really do believe that you haven't | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
seen the end of Ukip. I have read our awe bit are you so many times we | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
always come back and we always come back stronger. What is your view? I | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
think they are finished. Paul Nuttall you said yes I agree with | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
everything Theresa May said. What is the point of Ukip? He said that | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
today actually. I have to come back on that. This is really important. | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
Is it? Yes, I do agree with everything Theresa May said. What we | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
know about Theresa May is she is always very good at talking the | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
talk, when it comes to walking the walk she always fails. Look at her | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
record as Home Secretary. Ruth Davidson, thank you. I hope it's the | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
end of Ukip, I really do. I'm listening to Paul here talking about | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
we are the guard dogs of Brexit we come back and we come back stronger. | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
You have lost your only MP. You lost a by-election in what you said was | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
the Brexit capital of Britain. It's time to put it to bed. You have a | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
honeymoon at the moment. It's the longest honeymoon in the history of | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
politics, actually. That honeymoon won't last. Politics will come back | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
- I'm not waking up next to you in the morning, Paul, I'll tell you | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
that. As soon as she back slides on Brexit I believe she will barter | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
things away. What is the backbone of Ukip? When I think of a divided | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
Labour Party I can make guesses to what they will agree upon. | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
Redistribution, to some extent, for the Tories it's similar. Low-taxes, | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
business freedoms, to some extent. We Ukip, post-Brexit it's hard to | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
know what that is unless they are going to become the anti-immigration | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
party. That platform alone will not do well in the UK. It's ridiculous | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
to think that Ukip is the party of workers' rights. The SNP get caught | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
up in these grand speeches about independence they forget about | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
policies that govern on a day-to-day basis. Fundamentally, I don't see | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
them sticking around. All right. Ukip seems to be getting into | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
trouble until a lot of different ways. Yesterday Neil Hamilton said | :37:57. | :38:12. | |
the... Suicide if they suffered as a result of Brexit. You, sir. Paul, | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
you have lost your only MP. You have lost your cloth cap. There is no | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
future in it for you. Len. I agree with the young man at the back. I | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
think Ukip is finished. Ukip is a pressure group. The only two things | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
that you can think of it is they wanted out of Europe. We are out of | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
of Europe and foreigners are at fault for everything. Kate is | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
right,let idea that Ukip represent the working-class people of this | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
nation is an absolute joke. It's unions who represent workers. It's | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
Ukip who use workers. I'm going to put a challenge to you Paul. Go on. | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
I wouldn't like the audience or viewers at home to believe that Paul | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Nuttall represents my great city of Liverpool. A city that has for | :39:09. | :39:20. | |
decades and decades welcomed people from all over the world. So I | :39:21. | :39:36. | |
challenge be you to stand in Liverpool at the next election. Not | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
only will you not win, you will lose (inaudible) # A rhetorical | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
challenge. I stood in limp time and time, I live in Liverpool. They | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
always rejected you. Liverpool is a safe Labour city. Ukip have a big | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
future going forward. We are the only party who stand up - Sorry. | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
Nobody is the party of working people right now. I mean, it's | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
certainly not Labour. They talk about the cost of living, but all | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
the policies that they want to bring in will probably up your cost of | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
living. The Tories are - Scrapping zero-hours. ?10 minimum wage. You | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
want to get rid of jobs. Through zero-hours. Coming from a right-wing | :40:17. | :40:24. | |
think-tank like yours... Looking at the number of people signing up to | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
unions between 16 and 35 it's tiny 17%, 25-34, 5%, 16-25. Let us move | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
on. Lisa nannedy has not had a word to say about Ukip. I haven't got a | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
good word to say. I think there is a real problem for Ukip because they | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
were a party that was very clearly held together by this real anger and | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
opposition to the European Union. I've sat on platforms with Paul and | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
many of his colleagues over the years and I've heard every single | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
question they have been asked - how would you protect Sure Start and | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
rebuilding the NHS. Their mantra, we will leave the European Union. They | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
have little to say. . That is what we have seen. Over the last few | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
months we have seen that not only do they have little to say about not | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
protecting our public services they have little tole say about how we | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
build a Britain post-Brexit that is an absolute disgrace, Paul. Are they | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
finished in your view? If we drive this country's economy off a cliff | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
and crash out of the EU in two years' time with no deal, this is | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
working people's jobs. It's their lives. It's their families and | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
public services. You have been one of the leading voices driving us | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
into this position o. You at least have a responsibility to have | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
something to say to help put it right. We are going on. Sorry. | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
Michael Johnson, please. Yes. Sergeant Blackman, Marine A, is | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
about to be released. Does the country really understand the nasty, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
harsh reality of modern war? Are you in favour of his being released? | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
Absolutely. I think he was stitched up. I think it's justice being done | :42:06. | :42:32. | |
right now. Ruth Davidson. Honestly I don't believe if you haven't been in | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
conflict you can't understand the nature of conflict. We are so far | :42:38. | :42:37. | |
now from the society that was of my generation where there was a number | :42:38. | :42:38. | |
of people who had been in conflict and who understood it and were able | :42:39. | :42:39. | |
to have those conversations, that golden thread of ex-service | :42:40. | :42:39. | |
personnel that we often seek to misunderstand. I can't comment | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
knowledgeably on that case. I don't think anyone that wasn't in the | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
court room can comment knowledgeably on it or anyone not in his platoon | :42:50. | :42:59. | |
too can comment on it. Can see. When we look at some of the stuff that sl | :43:00. | :43:00. | |
happening in Northern Ireland and other cases with Iraq and others, we | :43:01. | :43:00. | |
need to if we are asking our young men and women to do desperate things | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
in unbelievable circumstances and make life-and-death decisions, yes | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
they are trained for, they weigh heavily on them, they need to know | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
they have protections when they come and won't be chased 10, 20 years | :43:14. | :43:23. | |
after the fact. That's away from Marine A and whether that was a | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
stitch-up. Len. The Geneva Convention is extremely important. | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
It's there to make certain that during conflict and war any criminal | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
behaviour will be dealt with. But it is the truth, I don't think anybody | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
is going to be unhappy about Marine A. His wife who has exposed the | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
trauma and, it must be unimaginable, the type of trauma that our | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
soldiers, our armed forces are exposed to and what they see. I | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
think raises a serious issue about mental health. Ruth, you have done | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
work on this yourself. I'm hoping that this will lead to the | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
Government looking at the whole question of mental health, which is | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
becoming more and more an issue. I want to make this point as well. | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
Most wars are wrong, but it's the politicians who are to blame for | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
wars, not our armed forces. The reality here is that we should make | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
certain that many of the cases we hear about of ex-soldiers, living on | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
the streets now, unable to cope because of mental stress, is | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
something we need to start to take seriously. In my own union we've | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
currently embarked upon a number of projects. I met with 20 companies | :44:48. | :44:56. | |
and our shop stewards because of mental health stress developing. Out | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
of this I hope will come some good. I hope politicians won't be so quick | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
to jump to war and send our young men and women into conflicts that, | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
as you rightly say, are now unimaginable the traumas they have | :45:10. | :45:56. | |
to go through. All right. Marine A had a murder conviction reduced to | :45:57. | :45:57. | |
manslaughter. He was used as a political pawn. If the circumstances | :45:58. | :45:57. | |
had been different he actually saved those 24 people who would have been | :45:58. | :45:58. | |
called out to rescue the Taliban fighter. I think it was a mercy | :45:59. | :45:58. | |
killing by shooting that man on the ground. He would have died anyway. | :45:59. | :45:59. | |
The problem is, what would Kate Andrews? I don't believe in | :46:00. | :46:21. | |
trial by media. None of us were part of the jury or the judge. So if this | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
new evidence came forward that Marine A was very sick and they've | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
decided to downgrade his sentence to manslaughter, then that is it, we | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
have to believe that is the right thing to do, we have to support the | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
justice system in that way. To the larger question about whether or not | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
we should reduce our expectations for soldiers or keep them incredibly | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
high, I mean obviously it's the latter. What happened in Westminster | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
last week was such a testament to the British people that medics were | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
taking care of the attacker and the terrorist next to his victims | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
because of the standards of this country. We don't leave people | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
behind. In the case of Marine A, it's the biggest disappointment that | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
we let him down in his sickness and weren't there for him to the wider | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
point of lowering our standards, never, that's not what Britain's | :47:10. | :47:10. | |
about. APPLAUSE. | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
I believe that if he was in that environment and under the stresses | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
and the illness that he had, I think once you've been shot at, he was | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
quite within his right to shoot back, maybe not how he did it but of | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
course shoot back. All right, the man behind you? I mean it comes down | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
to the events in Westminster last week, does the media not have a | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
bigger responsibility, you know, we are exposing people's lives and | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
national security is at risk based on some of the coverage, I thought | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
it was disgusting, based on how much we need to know about how Theresa | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
May was led out of Parliament, do we really need to know that. We made | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
this guy a martyr last week. The woman up there? Or a man, I can't | :47:56. | :48:04. | |
quite see. Surely the Government should be looking after our | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
soldiers, they are going to war for us, we have had people in Northern | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
Ireland currently under investigation, it's terrible. The | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
Geneva convention? We should apply it but Blackman should have been | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
looked after. Lisa Nandy? Just on the latest point there, that that | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
gentleman made over there, one of the things I found most troubling | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
about the aftermath of the Westminster attacks was the images | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
circulated, not just on social media but amongst mainstream media as well | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
about which clearly identified victims. If you'd known known some | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
of the people, you would recognise the clothing. The idea that we'd do | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
that to families is horrendous. On the question about Marine A, I think | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
this case raises troubling questions about how we treat our Armed Forces | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
because the picture that emerged from the court case, and I agree | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
with Kate and Ruth that we can't know the full details about having | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
been privy to that information. The picture that emerged was of a man | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
who had a recognisable treatable condition who'd been left on the | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
frontline in a situation of serious, extreme stress, with what appears to | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
be very little oversight or support either. If that is true, then that | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
is an absolute disgrace, not just for that man and his family, but | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
also for all of the members of the armed force who is Len rightly says | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
rely on the Geneva convention for their protection, to protect them | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
from retaliation attacks and to protect them when they are held | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
prisoner and to uphold the good name of our Armed Forces. It's right that | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
the process around the court case couldn't do anything to address | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
that, but our Government can. Now that this case is over, we have to | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
make sure that something positive comes out of what has been a | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
terrible, terrible case for everybody concerned and that we | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
support our troops better and uphold the reputation of our Armed Forces. | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
APPLAUSE. Paul, briefly? I I pretty much agree | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
with everything that has been said around this I believe that. There | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
was a clear lack of leadership out in Afghanistan. I feel very sorry | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
for Marine A. He obviously had psychological issues as a result of | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
what he seen but it does paint the bigger picture which is we don't | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
look after our boys and girls when they return home. 7,000 veterans | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
slept rough last night. It's a disgrace, it needs to be sorted and | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
I call on the Government to do something about it. | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
APPLAUSE. We have got time to get this | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
question in from Christine Kay, please? | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
Is the recent health England decision to charge for glue tonne | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
free foods and other products the beginnings of pay-as-you-go NHS? | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
That is right, that is Simon Stevens saying GPs won't prescribe certain | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
medicines that you can get cheaply in supermarkets. Is this the | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
beginning of pay-as-you-go NHS? We have five minutes to talk about | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
this, we talk about the NHS quite a lot but let's go around the table, | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
first? You? The review has identified a real problem which is | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
that it appears that we are spending more on prescribing drugs than we | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
would spend if we just simply got people to buy them over-the-counter. | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
But identifying the problem doesn't mean that we then leap to the right | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
solution and it seems to me there is a real problem with the solution in | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
this case which is that we are then asking people essentially to pay for | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
prescriptions, many of whom would have been entitled to them for free | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
as prescriptions. Some of these things sound very frivolous, but | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
medical hand creams for example, if you've got a skin condition, can be | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
incredibly important. I'm worried this represents the thin end of the | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
wedge. The truth is that we are not funding our National Health Service | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
properly, whatever the Government says, and we mustn't introduce | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
rationing by the back door. APPLAUSE. | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
Kate Andrews? I don't think that sunscreen and fish oils are a | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
legitimate prescription on the NHS when people are being denied cancer | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
treatment because they're too expensive. | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
APPLAUSE. There is a very serious problem here | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
in Britain with the National Health Service. It's crumbling around us | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
all and stories like this and the head of the NHS coming out saying | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
crackdowns on band-aids and indigestion tablets is going to save | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
the NHS is borderline satire. The UK is not unique in its universal | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
delivery of health carefree at the point of access, you do not pay if | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
you can't afford it, it's not unique in that sense at all but it is | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
unique in the sense that nobody else has adopted it. The UK needs to not | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
look to America but to France, Europe, Belgium and Switzerland and | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
Germany where cancer patients are significantly more likely to survive | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
where your likeliness to be able to see a doctor in a good amount of | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
time is through the roof. It's time for a real conversation about | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
reform. If that includes spending more money fine but not on a broken | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
system. I speak to the politicians on the stage tonight that this | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
conversation has not had enough and I believe it's finally time because | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
the system is crumbling around us and something needs to change. | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
APPLAUSE. You, there? I think the erosion of | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
the NHS in the UK in particular the north of England has already long | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
ago begun. I mean, for instance, in Whitehaven, which is 40 miles from | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
here, anyone in emergency situations or a mother in a desperate situation | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
having a baby in an ambulance faces a 40-mile journey of an hour to | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
Carlisle to have that baby in a consultant-led maternity department. | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
Now, that is not carefree at the point of need for people in Cumbria. | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
We need to protect our NHS and I'm sorry but that's not going to come | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
from vale vatisation, it's going to come from investment -- | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
privatisation, it's going to come from investment. | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes, I mean obviously there is | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
a worry that it's the beginning of pay-as-you-go for the NHS. If you | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
talk about glue tonne free foods, they're quite expensive, although I | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
do tend to agree that you shouldn't get sunscreen or cod liver oil on | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
the NHS or anything like that. The problem we have got with the NHS is | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
that it needs investment and the other problem is that Labour signed | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
us up to the crazy PFI deals. Every pound out of every ten is going to | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
pay off the debt... Its very existence... I won't take lectures | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
from someone who has spent their career trying to... Hold on. Ruth | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
Davidson? I think I take the point up there from the woman talking | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
about a 40-mile round trip, in Scotland, with Caithness, it's over | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
100 miles. Let's talk about the issue Christine raised? The issue is | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
to take a lot of the decisions out of the hands of politicians so you | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
don't have hysterical he shade she said which is what this is beginning | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
to turn into on this bloody panel. That is why you have ideas that | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
National Institute for Clinical Excellence making decisions about | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
what is the best course of treatment for people to be made available free | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
at the point of delivery. That is why actually I'm not a clinician, | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
these sorts of decisions should be taken out of the hands of elected | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
politicians and put in the hands of people with the qualifications in | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
order to make the decisions to keep the NHS best. Is it the beginning of | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
pay-as-you-go? At the moment you are already paying for prescriptions in | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
England an Wales at a level that is different to... Different across the | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
country. If for example you are prescribed something that costs less | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
than a prescription, you pay the prescription cost for it because | :56:13. | :56:14. | |
somebody else is getting a medicine that costs more than the price of a | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
prescription. At the moment, there are already people who're, you know, | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
it's not the cost of the medicine but the cost of the prescription. | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
The young woman at the back is right. Privatisation is well down | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
the road in our National Health Service and what we should be | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
campaigning for is the renalisation of our Public Services, our NHS, | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
with more money. I'll tell you where the money should come from, the | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
money should come from tax avoidance and tax evasion. The super rich and | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
the corporate elite who rob from the Treasury ?40 billion a year. | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
APPLAUSE. Let that... If the Government could | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
only spend half its energy on that instead of attacking ordinary | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
working people 1% pay rise for our NHS people, the very he rose that | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
raced out of -- heroes that raced out of St Thomas' Hospital last week | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
disregarding their own safety to help people told this week that | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
they've got to cut their standard of living. Attack the rich, make them | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
pay their taxes and invest in our National Health Service. | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
APPLAUSE. Ruth, just before we end, a quick | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
answer, is there ?40 billion a year to come from the rich who aren't | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
paying taxes? We are cracking down. Is there ?40 billion 20 today be got | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
out? There's a lot more to be done. How much? I cannot tell you the | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
figure. We have to thenned, sorry, our time is up. -- we have to end | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
there. Sorry, our time is up. That answer. Hangs in the balance. | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
Independent fiscal bodies tell us that. We are not allowed to trust | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
them because they are experts. Not any more. We couldn't trust the | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
experts. We have to stop. Our time is up, sorry. We are in Gillingham | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
next Thursday, not Maidstone but Gillingham. We have the leader of | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron on the panel, among others. After that, | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
the next programme is in Oxford on April 27th. I hope you can come to | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
Gillingham next week or three weeks later to Oxford. Go to the website, | :58:26. | :58:35. | |
the address is there: Radio 5-5 Lynners, the debate goes on until | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
1am. My thanks to all of you on this panel, to all who came to Carlisle, | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
still here in England and until next Thursday, from Question Time, good | :58:49. | :58:49. | |
night. Marine Le Pen has her eyes | :58:50. | :59:19. | |
on the French presidency. As she tries to distance herself | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
from her party's controversial past, | :59:23. | :59:26. |