30/03/2017 Question Time


30/03/2017

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Welcome to Question Time which tonight comes from Carlisle.

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Sitting round the table with me tonight, the leader

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of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson.

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The general secretary of Britain's biggest union,

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And from the free market think-tank, the Institute

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of Economic Affairs, Kate Andrews.

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As always, watching from home, you can make comments

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about what you hear on our Facebook site, on Twitter or text 83981,

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press the Red Button to see what others are saying.

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I always thought this Red Button was on the television set,

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I expect you know that, but I've never tried to do that,

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This is a question from somebody we haven't seen

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Well, hopefully not, especially if the Prime Minister

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I mean I think, first of all, we need to make certain

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that we don't get into a project fear about Brexit.

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That was the mistake that the remain campaign made last time.

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Brexit is with us, we are leaving the European Union,

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but the important thing, as far as I'm concerned,

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is to make certain that it's a Brexit that works

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It's a Brexit that defends jobs, investment, defends our communities

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and, most importantly of course, defends workers' rights.

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That's something that at the moment the Government's approach,

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the Prime Minister's approach, being a so-called hard Brexit,

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appears to be not listening - not listening to employers,

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I understand the Prime Minister would not want to show her hand.

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I'm a negotiator, you need to keep things close to your chest,

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but there needs to be parliamentary scrutiny at different stages

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and it's vitally important that the voice of working people

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Wherever I go in manufacturing at the moment, companies are saying

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that they are concerned about the future,

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the uncertainty, the lack of investment that might come.

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I'll give you a very quick example, David.

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I met with the president of Ford Europe, just before

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Christmas, he tells me that Ford have just made a decision to invest

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I asked him were we going to get a chunk of that.

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He said, at the moment, the word from Detroit is, no,

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we can't invest in Britain because we are concerned

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I met 200 of my senior shop stewards and conveners last Saturday

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from the automotive sector, a jewel in the manufacturing crown

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at the moment, and already we've got BMW talking about the new electric

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We've even got Nissan, the company that we thought,

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and we were delighted that they'd reached an agreement

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with the Government, now saying that, depending

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on what Brexit is, they will review their position.

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So you don't sound very optimistic, but we'll come back

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But, Ruth Davidson, a divorce turning messy?

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I mean, what's been really strange about the Brexit debate...

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Well, I think that you saw from the tone

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of the Prime Minister yesterday, it was a conciliatory tone.

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You saw from Donald Tusk, when he accepted the letter,

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he said that his overwhelming feeling was sadness.

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I think we have to recognise that this isn't a zero-sum game.

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This isn't if somebody wins, somebody else loses.

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In fact, if it turns into a point scoring fight,

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I think what's really interesting in this is,

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it has united people across a whole different spectrum.

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So I'm the leader of the Scottish Conservative Party,

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I stood on a platform last year with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor

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of London, I'm sitting next to Len McCloskey here today,

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three very different sets of politics across the spectrum,

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but three things we all have in common.

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We were all remainers, we all recognise that Brexit

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is happening and the UK will leave the European Union and we all

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believe that there is a positive outcome that can happen if we go

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about these negotiations in the right way.

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That's nothing to do with our politics, but that's

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Now, it will be difficult, it will be complex, but I think

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that we have to support and input to the Prime Minister to make sure

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that she's got the best negotiating hand and,

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no matter where you are, we can help with that.

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But it also means - and Len's quite right -

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it means we should be making sure that we're looking at this

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But Len was saying he knows how to negotiate, of course he does,

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Was the Prime Minister right to raise security?

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We've had a number of questions on that, as one of the things that

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might be withdrawn if the Government didn't get what it wanted?

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I think that's a misrepresentation of what was said.

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What the Prime Minister was saying - "In security terms,

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a failure to reach agreement would mean our co-operation

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in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened."

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What it means is we need to make sure that we get an agreement.

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This something the Prime Minister put out in her Lancaster House

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She put the 12 points that were so important for us.

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Now, we know that we're - and this is again where it comes

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back to the zero-sum game - we know that we're all safer

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if we do get a deal and we work together.

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We know that we all lose out if we start trying to score points

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So that's why making sure that it's not -

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whatever Mr Brown said - a messy divorce, that we don't

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I'll come to members of the audience in just a moment.

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Well, I agree with Ruth, but that is exactly

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what the Government is doing and I think - What is exactly

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I think they've played a very dangerous game

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Well, scoring points, trying to turn this into a zero-sum gain.

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When they were asked to clarify what that line meant in the letter,

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the Home Secretary said, "we are the largest contributor

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to Europol, so if we left, then we'd take our information with us."

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That is quite clearly a Government that seems to be threatening

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that we would remove our co-operation on security matters

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from the EU if we don't get the free trade agreement that we want.

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Now, that is - if you think about that for a moment,

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That is a Prime Minister who appears to be suggesting

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that we would side with terrorists and that we would prevent other

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European countries from getting information that may

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keep their citizens safe, knowing full well that in return

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that would prevent us from getting access that would keep our

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The Prime Minister has had 24-hours to clarify that

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that's not what she meant, she hasn't done it,

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If she didn't mean that, she needs to explain why

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she included this astonishing phrase in her letter yesterday and chose

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to make empty threats to the 27 countries that we are currently

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seeking to reach a trade agreement with.

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Which ever way you look at this - Lisa, that's nonsense,

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- which ever way you look at this, it's an act

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of serious self-harm to the United Kingdom.

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It is absolute nonsense, it's the worst type of scaremongering.

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The only British politicians that are siding with terrorists,

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as you put it, are your leader and your Shadow Chancellor -

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Not a single member - Are the only British politicians

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that side with terrorists in this country.

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Incredibly cheap, and not a single member of your party has been

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out on the airwaves, in the last 24-hours,

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denying that the Prime Minister is threatening to withdraw

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co-operation from our European neighbours unless we

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What they have said is that we need to ensure that we get co-operation

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Just to clarify, in what respect are you saying that

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Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell side with terrorists?

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They walked the past the people that wore the British Army uniforms

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and they walked up to the bombers with the balaclavas

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I think you should do well to defend your own party at the moment.

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The woman in the centre, at the back there.

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Given that Theresa May has said this, is it wise to go ahead

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with the plan for more than doubling the size of the Sellafield site

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with three new nuclear reactors that are now,

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we're told, to be built by the South Koreans?

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The woman in red there, on the right.

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Is not one of the problems that this divorce is going to be based

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It's going to take at least two years negotiation

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Yeah, of course, it will take two years because that's

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part of the process, part of Article 50.

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The original question was - is this divorce going to get messy?

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Well, there are certain people and certain parties

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within our own House of Commons who want it to be as messy

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as possible in an attempt to ensure that we actually never leave

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the European Union and they really want to keep us in.

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I think what's happening here at the moment is posturing,

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it's the phoney war, people are setting out

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But, in the end, money always talks and I think we will come to a good

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We have a huge trading deficit with the EU,

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We're its biggest marketplace and, indeed, there are four

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to six million jobs on the continent which are dependent on our trade.

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And if we do sign that deal, it will be mutually beneficial,

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not just for the EU, but for us as well.

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But the great thing is, after that, we can then go on and sign trade

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We can reconnect with the rest of the world -

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with India, with China, with the United States.

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We've got a great future as a result are of Brexit,

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but it has to be the Brexit that people voted for on June 23rd.

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That is a Brexit whereby we get full control of our borders,

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a real return to our democracy, full control of our waters,

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once again and, as I say, take our seat back on the world

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trade organisation and sign trade deals all over the globe.

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Gordon Brown, you asked the question, what do you think?

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I think sometimes there can be a very big difference

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between economic theory and practical politics

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and we've already just heard, just going round the panel,

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it's getting a bit messy amongst the panel, never mind

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when the actual real players get down to lock horns.

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What do you fear when you say "messy"?

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That the United Kingdom could be a much poorer,

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In theory, it could work well, but in practice I fear it might not.

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I'm cautiously optimistic, certainly more optimistic than Len.

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And, hopefully, to cheer your spirits a bit, more investment has

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been coming to the UK since the referendum,

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?16 billion extra in foreign investment has come here.

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London was, once again, named the financial capital

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and centre of the world just this week.

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So I'm cautiously optimistic, but you're completely

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We haven't left yet, it's going to be a two year process.

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Divorces can get very messy when personalities get involved,

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but if the politicians think of the children or us, so to speak,

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The UK Government could do something tomorrow,

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now that we triggered Article 50, to make it very clear that they want

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a good Brexit on good terms and they should immediately give EU

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nationals right to remain in this country regardless

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Some will argue that this is ceding ground, that she must wait

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until the European Union agrees to do it for UK citizens,

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but I have to say, if Theresa May were to do that tomorrow

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and her Government were to do that tomorrow and the EU

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were to refuse UK nationals, I think even the likes

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of Nick Clegg and Tim Farron would change their minds

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about the referendum result because that would not want to be

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a club that we would want to be a part of.

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I read today in the papers that Francois Hollande stated

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that he has his own agenda within his own country

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Of course, there's a general election next month and I know that

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Germany has a general election in September, Italy next February.

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Do you think the changing of guard is going to change the dynamics

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of the actual negotiations because people are going to say

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different things, maybe a new party will come in and maybe push the,

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sort of, agenda to a different, sort of, different way, really?

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Yeah, it's a very fluent situation within the political arena,

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right throughout Europe at the moment.

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Kate's just said the Government could do something tomorrow.

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I tell you what else the Government could do tomorrow.

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They could make it clear that workers' rights

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I'm going to come to that question, so I'm going to actually

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We'll come to it, it's the next question we've got here.

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Ruth Davidson, do you just want to comment on this business

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that the Prime Minister could now, immediately today, say that EU

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nationals could stay here, the point that she made?

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I think, if it were up to me, you know, I would have liked

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to have seen it done, but I'm not the Prime Minister

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of the country and I don't also have responsibility for the hundreds

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of thousands of Brits that live abroad.

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She's got to balance the responsibilities she has

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for people currently living in Britain as well as people who are

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You would liked to have seen her do that?

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Like I say, if it were down to me, but then I'm not carrying

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the responsibility that she has and I don't have to, in my sense,

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I don't have to balance the same responsibilities that she does.

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She might find a lot more goodwill overseas if she was prepared

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How much danger will there be to workers' rights

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Len, I will come to you because you've raised it twice already.

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Kate Andrews, the danger to workers' right after the Great Repeal Bill.

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How much danger do you think there'll be because the British

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parliament will be able to change anything and everything

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But also, very importantly, you will be able to vote

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for new politicians, for a new parliament if you don't

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I think it's incredibly unlikely that the regulations

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we're bringing over, especially when it's

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related to workers' rights, are going to be dramatically rolled

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back or repealed in the United Kingdom.

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I think this is a country that very much upholds workers' rights

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The idea, simply because it's coming to the United Kingdom ,they're

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going to be thrown out, I just don't fully buy that.

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I really do think that we need to be implementing sunset clauses

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into this Great Repeal Bill which means that bureaucrats can't

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sit around and take a long time to decide which workers' rights

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are good for the UK and which ones need to be expanded and which ones

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If we implement these sunset clauses, it can get bureaucrats

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to make these decisions sooner rather than later and then you,

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the British people, will get to know what deal you're getting and bring

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in new representation if that's what you want.

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Paul Nuttall, Theresa May has talked about if things go badly we'd

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have the freedom to set competitive tax and embrace policies that

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Would they include changes to workers' rights, the number

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of hours people could work, that kind of thing in

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I don't think they do, beyond that, calling it the great repeal Bill is

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wrong, it should be called the great incorporation bill because we are

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incorporating EU law into British law, we are not really repealing

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anything. It's a huge job. Please don't underestimate how big this is.

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There's been 52,000 pieces of EU legislation which have affected this

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country since 19906 alone. The majority of this, of the work on

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this will be mainly technical. It's taken out mentions of EU

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institutions such as the European Parliament, the European Council and

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commission which are incorporated into these pieces of law which will

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no longer be relevant once we have left the European Union. But, also

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remember when it comes to workers' rights, a lot of workers' rights

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were put in place before we were members of the European economic,

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such as workers' rights, equal pay. I encourage the Government, don't

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mess around with workers' rights during this debate or this work on

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the great repeal bill. If you do want to change workers' rights, take

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it to Parliament after we've left the European, let's then have a

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debate and we can go forward then into the 2020 general election on

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that platform and see how they get on. But that is a good thing, David

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because... All right. We can have an election on it because at least it's

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democratic, unlike the European Commission, which meets in secret

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and initiates its own laws. We have your point.

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APPLAUSE. Anyone who believes that this is not

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going to be used to attack workers' rights is not living in the real

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world. Leading members of the Conservative Party have already

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indicated that they're looking forward to reducing the frightening

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thing is... Who's said what? A number of leading members, Liam Fox

:17:39.:17:42.

for one, a number of leading members have said that a lot of workers'

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rights are nothing more than regulations that restrict business

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and the reality is that if we don't make it clear that we are going to

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defend the rites of British people, Kate says that we are well known for

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workers' rights, we have the worst protected workforce in the whole of

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Europe, despite the fact that we are the nation that, having defeated

:18:10.:18:12.

fascism at the end of the Second World War, gave Europe all of the

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freedoms they currently have. Yet German workers, Italian workers,

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French and all the rest of them, have got better protections than

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British workers. So my challenge to the Prime Minister, and I'm hoping

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Ruth and others will agree with me, is to put people's mind at rest by

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making it clear that all workers' rights that are going to be

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transferred indomestic rights will have the same protections as the

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fixed term Parliament act which means that 66% of Parliament would

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be needed to change those current rights. If she did that tomorrow,

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that would go a long way to ease people's concerns. My fear is she

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may not do it. All right. So you want to see laws passed by

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Westminster, abandoning the normal 50% plus 1 and going to this 60%, so

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it's two thirds for particular laws? There is a precedent within... All

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right. Legislation to do that. Ruth Davidson? The great repeals act will

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give ministers an opportunity and they have already said they are

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going to modify some of the laws. Ministers can do that and courts

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can, without any reference to parent. That's the fear. That's what

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we have got to defend. APPLAUSE.

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Ruth Davidson? I know that Len's in the mid offal an election right now

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but let's bring this back down-to-earth for a second. He talks

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about leading members of the Conservative Party and what they've

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said. Let's look at the leading member of the Conservative Party

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which is the Prime Minister and exactly what she's said. She's said

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that workers' rites currently inshrined under EU law will be

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coming imported wholesale to the United Kingdom. With modifications.

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They'll be maintain and protected. She's said they can be built upon

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and extended. Let's not fear monger. She's been absolutely categorically

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clear. Let's not try and win votes off the back of this, Len, yes? It's

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about protecting workers, it's about protecting workers' rites. She's

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quiveren that assurance. I'll fight for my members and workers' rights.

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She's talked about modifications. Let's clarify

:20:30.:20:31.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Hang on. What is modifications? You

:20:32.:20:40.

are the one that's making the... She said. She said it. You can't give us

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any examples. The Prime Minister initially said she was going to lift

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employment law out of Europe and put it in to domestic legislation. Music

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to my ears. She then said, we lift the laws, put them into domestic

:21:03.:21:06.

legislation with some modifications. Can I read this out to you? Len,

:21:07.:21:12.

you've had your turn. A as we translate the body of European law

:21:13.:21:16.

into domestic ing arelayingses, we'll ensure workers' rights are

:21:17.:21:19.

fully protected and maintained. Stop scaremongering. It's not

:21:20.:21:22.

scaremongering. APPLAUSE.

:21:23.:21:30.

Len, you've had your say. You, mam? Len says that our workers' rights

:21:31.:21:36.

aren't the best in the world. However, everybody from all over the

:21:37.:21:40.

world wants to come and work in the UK so they must be good. I'll read a

:21:41.:21:48.

quote back to Ruth. We are clear about what we want from Europe. We

:21:49.:21:52.

say yes to the single market. That was the manifesto that your Prime

:21:53.:21:56.

Minister and you stood on in the last election. That is the manifesto

:21:57.:21:59.

that the Prime Minister is busy ripping up without having been

:22:00.:22:05.

elected herself as she goes about these negotiations about Brexit.

:22:06.:22:13.

There is a whole host of issues from the single market to raising

:22:14.:22:16.

national insurance contributions. She's already in the very short time

:22:17.:22:19.

she's been in office gone back on her word. I think there is another

:22:20.:22:23.

reason nobody on this panel has raised yet, why we should be

:22:24.:22:27.

seriously concerned about the profoundly undemocratic nature of

:22:28.:22:30.

the great repeal Bill. Yes it's true that the Prime Minister is planning

:22:31.:22:36.

to take 40 years of laws that we've negotiated with our European union

:22:37.:22:40.

counterparts and transcribed them into this bill but she's also giving

:22:41.:22:45.

herself as part of this process huge sweeping powers to make

:22:46.:22:49.

retrospective changes to that legislation with virtually no

:22:50.:22:52.

scrutiny. The upshot of this is that when she and her Tory ministers go

:22:53.:22:57.

off to negotiate trade deals with people like China and the United

:22:58.:23:01.

States, all it will take is for those Governments to say to her,

:23:02.:23:06.

scrap those rights and we'll give you your trade deal and she will

:23:07.:23:09.

have given herself the power to do it. I say this - she's got a mandate

:23:10.:23:15.

to leave the EU and it's right now that we respect that and that we

:23:16.:23:19.

move on and work out how to get the best teal for Britain. This

:23:20.:23:23.

unelected Prime Minister has absolutely no mandate to drive down

:23:24.:23:32.

the living standards, jobs and living conditions. Do you want to

:23:33.:23:42.

answer? The Prime Minister has laid out what it is she wants to achieve.

:23:43.:23:45.

She's said in the first instance she'll take all of the European law

:23:46.:23:49.

that does exist and create it into UK law so there is no holes in

:23:50.:23:53.

our... Sorry, I was thinking of the single market. Lisa said she was on

:23:54.:23:59.

record as saying... It's in the Tory party manifesto. Gave her her

:24:00.:24:04.

mandate to govern. 17 .5 million people voted to leave the European

:24:05.:24:08.

Union OK. Now, in large part, not everybody, but in large part, much

:24:09.:24:12.

of that was based on changes to immigration. The other 27 nations

:24:13.:24:16.

have said that to stay part of the single market, the four freedoms,

:24:17.:24:23.

which includes free movement of people are indiv Isible. The Prime

:24:24.:24:28.

Minister said she'll seek a free trade agreement with the European

:24:29.:24:31.

Union so we are able to export and trade with the other member states.

:24:32.:24:36.

Why should we believe that? You, there? It said in the papers today

:24:37.:24:41.

they are going to push up to 1,000 pieces of legislation through

:24:42.:24:46.

without scrutiny. I'm concerned the Conservatives will have sole

:24:47.:24:48.

authority to push the pieces of legislation through.

:24:49.:24:51.

APPLAUSE. Paul Nuttall, are you in favour of

:24:52.:24:55.

the repatriation and the legislation without scrutiny? Well, obviously

:24:56.:25:00.

without democratic scrutiny, it causes concern. However, David Davis

:25:01.:25:06.

has made it perfectly clear that those pieces of legislation, they'll

:25:07.:25:11.

just be technical changes in terms of taking European Union terms out

:25:12.:25:14.

of, for example, European Parliament, European Council and

:25:15.:25:18.

what not. How do you know they'll be technical and won't slip in other

:25:19.:25:21.

things? I'm going on the word of David Davis on this, but the point

:25:22.:25:26.

Lisa made before about the Conservatives breaking a manifesto

:25:27.:25:29.

pledge in 2015 of keeping us in the single market, I just don't buy it

:25:30.:25:33.

because the world is a very different place now, people voted to

:25:34.:25:37.

leave the European Union, they knew they were voting to leave the single

:25:38.:25:41.

market. David Cameron said voting to leave the EU means leaving the

:25:42.:25:44.

single market. Osborne said the same. Michael Gove said the same.

:25:45.:25:49.

Boris Johnson said the same. Total rewriting of history. It's not. Even

:25:50.:25:53.

in the leaflet the Government sent to every single household at the

:25:54.:25:57.

cost of ?9 million to the taxpayer, it said quite clearly, leaving the

:25:58.:26:03.

European Union means leaving the single market.

:26:04.:26:05.

APPLAUSE. Kate? Look, these Henry VIII laws

:26:06.:26:11.

which is what they are being called where the Government is bringing

:26:12.:26:15.

over legislation but change it slightly because we may not have a

:26:16.:26:25.

law with the same name, there is no functioning opposition and nobody

:26:26.:26:27.

will be held to account. APPLAUSE.

:26:28.:26:34.

Unless you want to abandon every piece of EU legislation and start

:26:35.:26:38.

from scratch it would be incredibly dangerous to the workers' rights,

:26:39.:26:41.

you have to bring them over and change them. The big point is that

:26:42.:26:45.

you will now have the ability, if you don't like the way they are

:26:46.:26:49.

being changed or if you think the Government is making too many

:26:50.:26:53.

liberties, you get to vote and change it. How? In the general

:26:54.:26:56.

election. There is no general election. There is no functioning

:26:57.:27:00.

opposition. Len McCluskey, do you have a functioning opposition? You

:27:01.:27:07.

have given 15 months to jeer bin to change his ways -- Jeremy Corbyn 15

:27:08.:27:11.

months to change his ways? I said baize Jeremy Corbyn is the only

:27:12.:27:17.

political litre I've ever met, including unfortunately people on

:27:18.:27:22.

this platform who don't have an ego, I've indicated that Jeremy himself

:27:23.:27:25.

would be someone who'd want to look at the situation in say 15 months'

:27:26.:27:29.

time. Hang on, before you leave that, why do you want to wait 15

:27:30.:27:35.

months? Because we are talking about Jeremy Corbyn being elected by

:27:36.:27:38.

landslide victory on two occasions now. My union, my executive

:27:39.:27:45.

supporters, the policy conference with over 1,000 delegates

:27:46.:27:47.

overwhelmingly supported him a second time. Why? Because what his

:27:48.:27:52.

views and policies are coincide with what Unite wants. He's

:27:53.:27:56.

anti-austerity, so are my members. He's in favour of an industrial

:27:57.:28:00.

strategy. What is with this 15 months business? He wants to save

:28:01.:28:04.

the National Health Service. So do my members. But what happens 15

:28:05.:28:10.

months from now? I'll tell you what. He has been unmercifully attacked

:28:11.:28:14.

day in day out by the right-wing media since he was elected. But I

:28:15.:28:19.

want to remind everyone, your audience and viewers at home, first

:28:20.:28:24.

of all, the problems in the Labour Party didn't start with Jeremy

:28:25.:28:27.

Corbyn being elected, they started 20 years ago when we started to lose

:28:28.:28:31.

the support of ordinary working people. I would make this point.

:28:32.:28:37.

Before the disastrous coup that happened last summer, the opinion

:28:38.:28:41.

polls, Labour were neck and neck. One thing is clear. The Britishlike

:28:42.:28:46.

rat will not vote for a party that is divided and so the message within

:28:47.:28:50.

the Labour Party, the Parliamentary Labour Party and the rest of the

:28:51.:28:54.

party is that we have to unite, unite behind policies. I think you

:28:55.:28:58.

have made the point. Sorry to stop you. See if a decent honest man can

:28:59.:29:07.

break through this horrible media barrier to put those points.

:29:08.:29:08.

APPLAUSE. All right. This horrible, horrible

:29:09.:29:16.

media barrier, as you put it, also included Lisa Nandy leaving the

:29:17.:29:19.

Shadow Cabinet and supporting somebody else for the leadership. So

:29:20.:29:22.

what do you say? Tubb obvious that I don't agree with Len. We have had

:29:23.:29:27.

the leadership contest -- it's obvious. We were on different sides

:29:28.:29:32.

in the debate and I certainly don't agree that we were doing well in the

:29:33.:29:35.

opinion polls before I left the Shadow Cabinet. I think there is a

:29:36.:29:41.

responsibility on us all to do better, to be really honest with

:29:42.:29:44.

you, not without being an opposition to the Government but providing a

:29:45.:29:47.

clear alternative. What I would like to say to you is this, there is

:29:48.:29:50.

quite a narrative developing in British politics at the moment which

:29:51.:29:55.

I think is quite lazy and I think is quite dangerous, that there is no

:29:56.:29:57.

real opposition to this Government at the moment. I have to say this,

:29:58.:30:01.

that that is not what I see when I go down to Parliament on a weekly

:30:02.:30:06.

basis because in the last few weeks, I've seen Labour MPs working with

:30:07.:30:10.

MPs from all of the different political parties, dragging the

:30:11.:30:13.

Government against their will into Parliament to hold them to account

:30:14.:30:17.

on issues on everything from Brexit to the National Health Service. We

:30:18.:30:22.

have worked with SNP MPs, we have worked with liberal MPs, we have

:30:23.:30:26.

worked with backbench Tory MPs, a small handful of whom occasionally

:30:27.:30:30.

find a conscience, and we have worked with much bigger groups of

:30:31.:30:33.

people outside including Len's Trade Union. That is how we win.

:30:34.:30:42.

I'm interested in Len who is a believer in Jeremy Corbyn talking

:30:43.:30:47.

about opinion polls. Today, Jeremy Corbyn's been in office abouts 18

:30:48.:30:52.

months. 18 months into Ed Miliband's leadership the Labour Party was

:30:53.:30:56.

polling 44% and it was 10% ahead of the Tories it went on to lose the

:30:57.:30:59.

next election. Today the Labour Party is polling at 26% and it is 18

:31:00.:31:06.

points behind the Tory party. So that's the size of the drop off that

:31:07.:31:12.

there has been in Labour. You might think Because of divisions. It's

:31:13.:31:16.

because of lack of leadership. You might think I love this. I don't.

:31:17.:31:21.

Yes, I'm a Tory but a democrat. The Labour Party is having a disservice

:31:22.:31:26.

to itself by keeping Jeremy Corbyn in place a disservice to our country

:31:27.:31:30.

and democracy. It relies upon the idea if the Government falls there

:31:31.:31:33.

is a Government in waiting ready to go. It relies on that tension

:31:34.:31:38.

between Government and Opposition to walk a line. I hear a new coming

:31:39.:31:41.

person in the Labour Party that will be the next leader. Whether it's

:31:42.:31:47.

Clive Lewis or Lisa Nandy. Do something about it and get in there.

:31:48.:31:51.

If it's not going to be you, back someone else. This country needs a

:31:52.:31:56.

new Labour Party leader. APPLAUS That is the I think ringing

:31:57.:32:00.

endorsement I need like a hole in the head, to be honest. I just

:32:01.:32:04.

spoiled it for you. The woman in the second row from the back. I have the

:32:05.:32:10.

greatest sympathy for Lisa I think you're in a Government you dwoont to

:32:11.:32:14.

be part of it. For Len saying Jeremy Corbyn not having an ego. The Labour

:32:15.:32:20.

Party is an absolute disgrace it's fine standing by policies wanting to

:32:21.:32:24.

support our NHS if you are never going to get elected it's pointless.

:32:25.:32:29.

I'm a paid up Labour Party he member and it's absolute disgrace to see

:32:30.:32:33.

the state of Labour at the moment. The man in blue. The Labour Party is

:32:34.:32:39.

a total disgrace. It's not doing the job it is being paid for nor is

:32:40.:32:44.

Jeremy Corbyn. Len say it is will take 15 months to sort him out. Will

:32:45.:32:53.

it be 15 months to have a Brexit to remove Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour

:32:54.:32:56.

Party? The woman there. Is it time that David Miliband came back? Is

:32:57.:33:02.

that what you would like to see? Not personally, no. Why do you suggest

:33:03.:33:07.

it then? Spicing things up. Destroy Labour or help them? I think they

:33:08.:33:28.

are doing a good enough job of destroying themselves at the moment?

:33:29.:33:29.

Domestic politics, another question. Before we go to this question.

:33:30.:33:30.

Question Time will be in Gillingham next week. We were going to be in

:33:31.:33:32.

Maidstone. If you were thinking of coming to Maidstone think again, go

:33:33.:33:34.

over the motorway and come to Gillingham. That is next week. There

:33:35.:33:37.

is a pause for Easter. We will be in Oxford on the 27th April. The

:33:38.:33:39.

details on the screen. I will give them at the end. If you are in

:33:40.:33:41.

Gillingham or in that area and want to come, this is your chance. Let us

:33:42.:33:49.

have a question from Hani Cox. With no MPs and Brexit achieved, is Ukip

:33:50.:33:56.

finished? Your turn, Paul, to take the rap.

:33:57.:34:03.

APPLAUSE. He lost Douglas Carswell, he has nos MPs. Leader of a party

:34:04.:34:06.

that has no MPs in the House of Commons even though he is an MP? All

:34:07.:34:11.

right, you don't have to repeat it! At least my own parliamentary party

:34:12.:34:20.

is united! Look, Ukip doesn't need an MP to be influential. OK. Let's

:34:21.:34:26.

not forget back in January 2013 Ukip forced the then British Prime

:34:27.:34:30.

Minister, David Cameron, into giving a referendum he never wanted to give

:34:31.:34:34.

it. He only gave that referendum because Ukip was chomping at the

:34:35.:34:37.

heels of the Conservative Party going up in the polls doing well in

:34:38.:34:41.

local elections and we forced that issue without having Ukip back sides

:34:42.:34:45.

in the House of Commons. We will continue to influence politics. We

:34:46.:34:49.

will continue to be the guard dogs of Brexit in an attempt to ensure we

:34:50.:34:54.

get the Brexit people voted for on June 23rd. We believe we have great

:34:55.:34:58.

opportunities going forward, moving into Labour working-class areas. We

:34:59.:35:02.

are speaking before about Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour Party. We feel

:35:03.:35:06.

they don't represent working people any more. There is a huge bank of

:35:07.:35:12.

patriotic working people who feel, no affinity, with a guy who says

:35:13.:35:17.

nice things about the ire ya or a Shadow Home Secretary who thinks

:35:18.:35:21.

anyone who voted Brexit is a racist. We have great opportunities. We are

:35:22.:35:24.

a 12% in the opinion polls. Membership continues - 10%. No, 12%

:35:25.:35:31.

yesterday. 10% this week. One point behind the Liberal Democrats. Whose

:35:32.:35:35.

poll? I think it was YouGov yesterday. It was 10%? A different

:35:36.:35:41.

one then polls, if you believe them. You live and die by the polls. We

:35:42.:35:45.

have big elections coming up in May. I really do believe that you haven't

:35:46.:35:51.

seen the end of Ukip. I have read our awe bit are you so many times we

:35:52.:35:54.

always come back and we always come back stronger. What is your view? I

:35:55.:36:01.

think they are finished. Paul Nuttall you said yes I agree with

:36:02.:36:05.

everything Theresa May said. What is the point of Ukip? He said that

:36:06.:36:12.

today actually. I have to come back on that. This is really important.

:36:13.:36:16.

Is it? Yes, I do agree with everything Theresa May said. What we

:36:17.:36:19.

know about Theresa May is she is always very good at talking the

:36:20.:36:23.

talk, when it comes to walking the walk she always fails. Look at her

:36:24.:36:27.

record as Home Secretary. Ruth Davidson, thank you. I hope it's the

:36:28.:36:32.

end of Ukip, I really do. I'm listening to Paul here talking about

:36:33.:36:37.

we are the guard dogs of Brexit we come back and we come back stronger.

:36:38.:36:42.

You have lost your only MP. You lost a by-election in what you said was

:36:43.:36:46.

the Brexit capital of Britain. It's time to put it to bed. You have a

:36:47.:36:51.

honeymoon at the moment. It's the longest honeymoon in the history of

:36:52.:36:55.

politics, actually. That honeymoon won't last. Politics will come back

:36:56.:37:00.

- I'm not waking up next to you in the morning, Paul, I'll tell you

:37:01.:37:06.

that. As soon as she back slides on Brexit I believe she will barter

:37:07.:37:12.

things away. What is the backbone of Ukip? When I think of a divided

:37:13.:37:15.

Labour Party I can make guesses to what they will agree upon.

:37:16.:37:19.

Redistribution, to some extent, for the Tories it's similar. Low-taxes,

:37:20.:37:25.

business freedoms, to some extent. We Ukip, post-Brexit it's hard to

:37:26.:37:28.

know what that is unless they are going to become the anti-immigration

:37:29.:37:32.

party. That platform alone will not do well in the UK. It's ridiculous

:37:33.:37:38.

to think that Ukip is the party of workers' rights. The SNP get caught

:37:39.:37:42.

up in these grand speeches about independence they forget about

:37:43.:37:46.

policies that govern on a day-to-day basis. Fundamentally, I don't see

:37:47.:37:53.

them sticking around. All right. Ukip seems to be getting into

:37:54.:37:56.

trouble until a lot of different ways. Yesterday Neil Hamilton said

:37:57.:38:12.

the... Suicide if they suffered as a result of Brexit. You, sir. Paul,

:38:13.:38:20.

you have lost your only MP. You have lost your cloth cap. There is no

:38:21.:38:27.

future in it for you. Len. I agree with the young man at the back. I

:38:28.:38:32.

think Ukip is finished. Ukip is a pressure group. The only two things

:38:33.:38:41.

that you can think of it is they wanted out of Europe. We are out of

:38:42.:38:47.

of Europe and foreigners are at fault for everything. Kate is

:38:48.:38:50.

right,let idea that Ukip represent the working-class people of this

:38:51.:38:55.

nation is an absolute joke. It's unions who represent workers. It's

:38:56.:38:59.

Ukip who use workers. I'm going to put a challenge to you Paul. Go on.

:39:00.:39:03.

I wouldn't like the audience or viewers at home to believe that Paul

:39:04.:39:08.

Nuttall represents my great city of Liverpool. A city that has for

:39:09.:39:20.

decades and decades welcomed people from all over the world. So I

:39:21.:39:36.

challenge be you to stand in Liverpool at the next election. Not

:39:37.:39:41.

only will you not win, you will lose (inaudible) # A rhetorical

:39:42.:39:44.

challenge. I stood in limp time and time, I live in Liverpool. They

:39:45.:39:49.

always rejected you. Liverpool is a safe Labour city. Ukip have a big

:39:50.:39:53.

future going forward. We are the only party who stand up - Sorry.

:39:54.:39:59.

Nobody is the party of working people right now. I mean, it's

:40:00.:40:02.

certainly not Labour. They talk about the cost of living, but all

:40:03.:40:05.

the policies that they want to bring in will probably up your cost of

:40:06.:40:09.

living. The Tories are - Scrapping zero-hours. ?10 minimum wage. You

:40:10.:40:16.

want to get rid of jobs. Through zero-hours. Coming from a right-wing

:40:17.:40:24.

think-tank like yours... Looking at the number of people signing up to

:40:25.:40:31.

unions between 16 and 35 it's tiny 17%, 25-34, 5%, 16-25. Let us move

:40:32.:40:36.

on. Lisa nannedy has not had a word to say about Ukip. I haven't got a

:40:37.:40:41.

good word to say. I think there is a real problem for Ukip because they

:40:42.:40:45.

were a party that was very clearly held together by this real anger and

:40:46.:40:52.

opposition to the European Union. I've sat on platforms with Paul and

:40:53.:40:55.

many of his colleagues over the years and I've heard every single

:40:56.:40:59.

question they have been asked - how would you protect Sure Start and

:41:00.:41:04.

rebuilding the NHS. Their mantra, we will leave the European Union. They

:41:05.:41:08.

have little to say. . That is what we have seen. Over the last few

:41:09.:41:12.

months we have seen that not only do they have little to say about not

:41:13.:41:16.

protecting our public services they have little tole say about how we

:41:17.:41:21.

build a Britain post-Brexit that is an absolute disgrace, Paul. Are they

:41:22.:41:25.

finished in your view? If we drive this country's economy off a cliff

:41:26.:41:29.

and crash out of the EU in two years' time with no deal, this is

:41:30.:41:32.

working people's jobs. It's their lives. It's their families and

:41:33.:41:37.

public services. You have been one of the leading voices driving us

:41:38.:41:40.

into this position o. You at least have a responsibility to have

:41:41.:41:44.

something to say to help put it right. We are going on. Sorry.

:41:45.:41:51.

Michael Johnson, please. Yes. Sergeant Blackman, Marine A, is

:41:52.:41:55.

about to be released. Does the country really understand the nasty,

:41:56.:42:01.

harsh reality of modern war? Are you in favour of his being released?

:42:02.:42:05.

Absolutely. I think he was stitched up. I think it's justice being done

:42:06.:42:32.

right now. Ruth Davidson. Honestly I don't believe if you haven't been in

:42:33.:42:37.

conflict you can't understand the nature of conflict. We are so far

:42:38.:42:37.

now from the society that was of my generation where there was a number

:42:38.:42:38.

of people who had been in conflict and who understood it and were able

:42:39.:42:39.

to have those conversations, that golden thread of ex-service

:42:40.:42:39.

personnel that we often seek to misunderstand. I can't comment

:42:40.:42:43.

knowledgeably on that case. I don't think anyone that wasn't in the

:42:44.:42:49.

court room can comment knowledgeably on it or anyone not in his platoon

:42:50.:42:59.

too can comment on it. Can see. When we look at some of the stuff that sl

:43:00.:43:00.

happening in Northern Ireland and other cases with Iraq and others, we

:43:01.:43:00.

need to if we are asking our young men and women to do desperate things

:43:01.:43:07.

in unbelievable circumstances and make life-and-death decisions, yes

:43:08.:43:09.

they are trained for, they weigh heavily on them, they need to know

:43:10.:43:13.

they have protections when they come and won't be chased 10, 20 years

:43:14.:43:23.

after the fact. That's away from Marine A and whether that was a

:43:24.:43:29.

stitch-up. Len. The Geneva Convention is extremely important.

:43:30.:43:34.

It's there to make certain that during conflict and war any criminal

:43:35.:43:40.

behaviour will be dealt with. But it is the truth, I don't think anybody

:43:41.:43:45.

is going to be unhappy about Marine A. His wife who has exposed the

:43:46.:43:51.

trauma and, it must be unimaginable, the type of trauma that our

:43:52.:43:57.

soldiers, our armed forces are exposed to and what they see. I

:43:58.:44:04.

think raises a serious issue about mental health. Ruth, you have done

:44:05.:44:08.

work on this yourself. I'm hoping that this will lead to the

:44:09.:44:12.

Government looking at the whole question of mental health, which is

:44:13.:44:16.

becoming more and more an issue. I want to make this point as well.

:44:17.:44:21.

Most wars are wrong, but it's the politicians who are to blame for

:44:22.:44:28.

wars, not our armed forces. The reality here is that we should make

:44:29.:44:34.

certain that many of the cases we hear about of ex-soldiers, living on

:44:35.:44:38.

the streets now, unable to cope because of mental stress, is

:44:39.:44:42.

something we need to start to take seriously. In my own union we've

:44:43.:44:47.

currently embarked upon a number of projects. I met with 20 companies

:44:48.:44:56.

and our shop stewards because of mental health stress developing. Out

:44:57.:45:01.

of this I hope will come some good. I hope politicians won't be so quick

:45:02.:45:04.

to jump to war and send our young men and women into conflicts that,

:45:05.:45:09.

as you rightly say, are now unimaginable the traumas they have

:45:10.:45:56.

to go through. All right. Marine A had a murder conviction reduced to

:45:57.:45:57.

manslaughter. He was used as a political pawn. If the circumstances

:45:58.:45:57.

had been different he actually saved those 24 people who would have been

:45:58.:45:58.

called out to rescue the Taliban fighter. I think it was a mercy

:45:59.:45:58.

killing by shooting that man on the ground. He would have died anyway.

:45:59.:45:59.

The problem is, what would Kate Andrews? I don't believe in

:46:00.:46:21.

trial by media. None of us were part of the jury or the judge. So if this

:46:22.:46:25.

new evidence came forward that Marine A was very sick and they've

:46:26.:46:29.

decided to downgrade his sentence to manslaughter, then that is it, we

:46:30.:46:32.

have to believe that is the right thing to do, we have to support the

:46:33.:46:36.

justice system in that way. To the larger question about whether or not

:46:37.:46:39.

we should reduce our expectations for soldiers or keep them incredibly

:46:40.:46:43.

high, I mean obviously it's the latter. What happened in Westminster

:46:44.:46:49.

last week was such a testament to the British people that medics were

:46:50.:46:53.

taking care of the attacker and the terrorist next to his victims

:46:54.:46:56.

because of the standards of this country. We don't leave people

:46:57.:47:01.

behind. In the case of Marine A, it's the biggest disappointment that

:47:02.:47:05.

we let him down in his sickness and weren't there for him to the wider

:47:06.:47:09.

point of lowering our standards, never, that's not what Britain's

:47:10.:47:10.

about. APPLAUSE.

:47:11.:47:18.

I believe that if he was in that environment and under the stresses

:47:19.:47:23.

and the illness that he had, I think once you've been shot at, he was

:47:24.:47:27.

quite within his right to shoot back, maybe not how he did it but of

:47:28.:47:32.

course shoot back. All right, the man behind you? I mean it comes down

:47:33.:47:37.

to the events in Westminster last week, does the media not have a

:47:38.:47:41.

bigger responsibility, you know, we are exposing people's lives and

:47:42.:47:43.

national security is at risk based on some of the coverage, I thought

:47:44.:47:48.

it was disgusting, based on how much we need to know about how Theresa

:47:49.:47:52.

May was led out of Parliament, do we really need to know that. We made

:47:53.:47:55.

this guy a martyr last week. The woman up there? Or a man, I can't

:47:56.:48:04.

quite see. Surely the Government should be looking after our

:48:05.:48:07.

soldiers, they are going to war for us, we have had people in Northern

:48:08.:48:10.

Ireland currently under investigation, it's terrible. The

:48:11.:48:16.

Geneva convention? We should apply it but Blackman should have been

:48:17.:48:22.

looked after. Lisa Nandy? Just on the latest point there, that that

:48:23.:48:25.

gentleman made over there, one of the things I found most troubling

:48:26.:48:29.

about the aftermath of the Westminster attacks was the images

:48:30.:48:34.

circulated, not just on social media but amongst mainstream media as well

:48:35.:48:39.

about which clearly identified victims. If you'd known known some

:48:40.:48:44.

of the people, you would recognise the clothing. The idea that we'd do

:48:45.:48:49.

that to families is horrendous. On the question about Marine A, I think

:48:50.:48:52.

this case raises troubling questions about how we treat our Armed Forces

:48:53.:48:56.

because the picture that emerged from the court case, and I agree

:48:57.:49:01.

with Kate and Ruth that we can't know the full details about having

:49:02.:49:04.

been privy to that information. The picture that emerged was of a man

:49:05.:49:11.

who had a recognisable treatable condition who'd been left on the

:49:12.:49:17.

frontline in a situation of serious, extreme stress, with what appears to

:49:18.:49:20.

be very little oversight or support either. If that is true, then that

:49:21.:49:25.

is an absolute disgrace, not just for that man and his family, but

:49:26.:49:29.

also for all of the members of the armed force who is Len rightly says

:49:30.:49:34.

rely on the Geneva convention for their protection, to protect them

:49:35.:49:37.

from retaliation attacks and to protect them when they are held

:49:38.:49:42.

prisoner and to uphold the good name of our Armed Forces. It's right that

:49:43.:49:45.

the process around the court case couldn't do anything to address

:49:46.:49:48.

that, but our Government can. Now that this case is over, we have to

:49:49.:49:53.

make sure that something positive comes out of what has been a

:49:54.:49:56.

terrible, terrible case for everybody concerned and that we

:49:57.:50:00.

support our troops better and uphold the reputation of our Armed Forces.

:50:01.:50:08.

APPLAUSE. Paul, briefly? I I pretty much agree

:50:09.:50:13.

with everything that has been said around this I believe that. There

:50:14.:50:16.

was a clear lack of leadership out in Afghanistan. I feel very sorry

:50:17.:50:22.

for Marine A. He obviously had psychological issues as a result of

:50:23.:50:26.

what he seen but it does paint the bigger picture which is we don't

:50:27.:50:30.

look after our boys and girls when they return home. 7,000 veterans

:50:31.:50:34.

slept rough last night. It's a disgrace, it needs to be sorted and

:50:35.:50:37.

I call on the Government to do something about it.

:50:38.:50:43.

APPLAUSE. We have got time to get this

:50:44.:50:48.

question in from Christine Kay, please?

:50:49.:50:52.

Is the recent health England decision to charge for glue tonne

:50:53.:50:57.

free foods and other products the beginnings of pay-as-you-go NHS?

:50:58.:51:02.

That is right, that is Simon Stevens saying GPs won't prescribe certain

:51:03.:51:06.

medicines that you can get cheaply in supermarkets. Is this the

:51:07.:51:10.

beginning of pay-as-you-go NHS? We have five minutes to talk about

:51:11.:51:14.

this, we talk about the NHS quite a lot but let's go around the table,

:51:15.:51:21.

first? You? The review has identified a real problem which is

:51:22.:51:27.

that it appears that we are spending more on prescribing drugs than we

:51:28.:51:31.

would spend if we just simply got people to buy them over-the-counter.

:51:32.:51:34.

But identifying the problem doesn't mean that we then leap to the right

:51:35.:51:39.

solution and it seems to me there is a real problem with the solution in

:51:40.:51:42.

this case which is that we are then asking people essentially to pay for

:51:43.:51:48.

prescriptions, many of whom would have been entitled to them for free

:51:49.:51:53.

as prescriptions. Some of these things sound very frivolous, but

:51:54.:51:56.

medical hand creams for example, if you've got a skin condition, can be

:51:57.:52:02.

incredibly important. I'm worried this represents the thin end of the

:52:03.:52:06.

wedge. The truth is that we are not funding our National Health Service

:52:07.:52:08.

properly, whatever the Government says, and we mustn't introduce

:52:09.:52:11.

rationing by the back door. APPLAUSE.

:52:12.:52:19.

Kate Andrews? I don't think that sunscreen and fish oils are a

:52:20.:52:23.

legitimate prescription on the NHS when people are being denied cancer

:52:24.:52:26.

treatment because they're too expensive.

:52:27.:52:30.

APPLAUSE. There is a very serious problem here

:52:31.:52:34.

in Britain with the National Health Service. It's crumbling around us

:52:35.:52:40.

all and stories like this and the head of the NHS coming out saying

:52:41.:52:45.

crackdowns on band-aids and indigestion tablets is going to save

:52:46.:52:49.

the NHS is borderline satire. The UK is not unique in its universal

:52:50.:52:53.

delivery of health carefree at the point of access, you do not pay if

:52:54.:52:57.

you can't afford it, it's not unique in that sense at all but it is

:52:58.:53:03.

unique in the sense that nobody else has adopted it. The UK needs to not

:53:04.:53:08.

look to America but to France, Europe, Belgium and Switzerland and

:53:09.:53:12.

Germany where cancer patients are significantly more likely to survive

:53:13.:53:15.

where your likeliness to be able to see a doctor in a good amount of

:53:16.:53:18.

time is through the roof. It's time for a real conversation about

:53:19.:53:22.

reform. If that includes spending more money fine but not on a broken

:53:23.:53:25.

system. I speak to the politicians on the stage tonight that this

:53:26.:53:29.

conversation has not had enough and I believe it's finally time because

:53:30.:53:34.

the system is crumbling around us and something needs to change.

:53:35.:53:38.

APPLAUSE. You, there? I think the erosion of

:53:39.:53:43.

the NHS in the UK in particular the north of England has already long

:53:44.:53:47.

ago begun. I mean, for instance, in Whitehaven, which is 40 miles from

:53:48.:53:52.

here, anyone in emergency situations or a mother in a desperate situation

:53:53.:53:56.

having a baby in an ambulance faces a 40-mile journey of an hour to

:53:57.:54:02.

Carlisle to have that baby in a consultant-led maternity department.

:54:03.:54:05.

Now, that is not carefree at the point of need for people in Cumbria.

:54:06.:54:09.

We need to protect our NHS and I'm sorry but that's not going to come

:54:10.:54:15.

from vale vatisation, it's going to come from investment --

:54:16.:54:18.

privatisation, it's going to come from investment.

:54:19.:54:20.

APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes, I mean obviously there is

:54:21.:54:25.

a worry that it's the beginning of pay-as-you-go for the NHS. If you

:54:26.:54:30.

talk about glue tonne free foods, they're quite expensive, although I

:54:31.:54:34.

do tend to agree that you shouldn't get sunscreen or cod liver oil on

:54:35.:54:37.

the NHS or anything like that. The problem we have got with the NHS is

:54:38.:54:44.

that it needs investment and the other problem is that Labour signed

:54:45.:54:50.

us up to the crazy PFI deals. Every pound out of every ten is going to

:54:51.:54:56.

pay off the debt... Its very existence... I won't take lectures

:54:57.:55:03.

from someone who has spent their career trying to... Hold on. Ruth

:55:04.:55:09.

Davidson? I think I take the point up there from the woman talking

:55:10.:55:14.

about a 40-mile round trip, in Scotland, with Caithness, it's over

:55:15.:55:20.

100 miles. Let's talk about the issue Christine raised? The issue is

:55:21.:55:23.

to take a lot of the decisions out of the hands of politicians so you

:55:24.:55:28.

don't have hysterical he shade she said which is what this is beginning

:55:29.:55:31.

to turn into on this bloody panel. That is why you have ideas that

:55:32.:55:35.

National Institute for Clinical Excellence making decisions about

:55:36.:55:38.

what is the best course of treatment for people to be made available free

:55:39.:55:41.

at the point of delivery. That is why actually I'm not a clinician,

:55:42.:55:45.

these sorts of decisions should be taken out of the hands of elected

:55:46.:55:49.

politicians and put in the hands of people with the qualifications in

:55:50.:55:52.

order to make the decisions to keep the NHS best. Is it the beginning of

:55:53.:55:58.

pay-as-you-go? At the moment you are already paying for prescriptions in

:55:59.:56:02.

England an Wales at a level that is different to... Different across the

:56:03.:56:08.

country. If for example you are prescribed something that costs less

:56:09.:56:12.

than a prescription, you pay the prescription cost for it because

:56:13.:56:14.

somebody else is getting a medicine that costs more than the price of a

:56:15.:56:19.

prescription. At the moment, there are already people who're, you know,

:56:20.:56:22.

it's not the cost of the medicine but the cost of the prescription.

:56:23.:56:26.

The young woman at the back is right. Privatisation is well down

:56:27.:56:30.

the road in our National Health Service and what we should be

:56:31.:56:35.

campaigning for is the renalisation of our Public Services, our NHS,

:56:36.:56:38.

with more money. I'll tell you where the money should come from, the

:56:39.:56:44.

money should come from tax avoidance and tax evasion. The super rich and

:56:45.:56:49.

the corporate elite who rob from the Treasury ?40 billion a year.

:56:50.:56:53.

APPLAUSE. Let that... If the Government could

:56:54.:57:01.

only spend half its energy on that instead of attacking ordinary

:57:02.:57:05.

working people 1% pay rise for our NHS people, the very he rose that

:57:06.:57:11.

raced out of -- heroes that raced out of St Thomas' Hospital last week

:57:12.:57:14.

disregarding their own safety to help people told this week that

:57:15.:57:18.

they've got to cut their standard of living. Attack the rich, make them

:57:19.:57:24.

pay their taxes and invest in our National Health Service.

:57:25.:57:30.

APPLAUSE. Ruth, just before we end, a quick

:57:31.:57:34.

answer, is there ?40 billion a year to come from the rich who aren't

:57:35.:57:40.

paying taxes? We are cracking down. Is there ?40 billion 20 today be got

:57:41.:57:44.

out? There's a lot more to be done. How much? I cannot tell you the

:57:45.:57:48.

figure. We have to thenned, sorry, our time is up. -- we have to end

:57:49.:57:54.

there. Sorry, our time is up. That answer. Hangs in the balance.

:57:55.:57:59.

Independent fiscal bodies tell us that. We are not allowed to trust

:58:00.:58:03.

them because they are experts. Not any more. We couldn't trust the

:58:04.:58:07.

experts. We have to stop. Our time is up, sorry. We are in Gillingham

:58:08.:58:12.

next Thursday, not Maidstone but Gillingham. We have the leader of

:58:13.:58:15.

the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron on the panel, among others. After that,

:58:16.:58:20.

the next programme is in Oxford on April 27th. I hope you can come to

:58:21.:58:25.

Gillingham next week or three weeks later to Oxford. Go to the website,

:58:26.:58:35.

the address is there: Radio 5-5 Lynners, the debate goes on until

:58:36.:58:40.

1am. My thanks to all of you on this panel, to all who came to Carlisle,

:58:41.:58:48.

still here in England and until next Thursday, from Question Time, good

:58:49.:58:49.

night. Marine Le Pen has her eyes

:58:50.:59:19.

on the French presidency. As she tries to distance herself

:59:20.:59:22.

from her party's controversial past,

:59:23.:59:26.

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