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Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Gillingham. | :00:08. | :00:17. | |
And we have a full house tonight. co-leader of the Green | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
Party Jonathan Bartley, Gerard Coyne, running for the | :00:21. | :00:35. | |
leadership of the Unite union, and businesswoman and broadcaster | :00:36. | :00:44. | |
Michelle Dewberry. APPLAUSE. | :00:45. | :00:59. | |
Thank you, and of course you know this well from home, you can take | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
part in the debate either on Facebook, Twitter or text, or push | :01:03. | :01:11. | |
the red button. I have asked the panellists not to speak at too great | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
length because I want you to have the opportunity to -- tonight. Our | :01:15. | :01:27. | |
first question. Labour proposes tax -- taxing private school fees to | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
fund school meals for all children, is this fair? I think this is an | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
example of a half baked Labour gimmick and I think it is misjudged. | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
The evidence behind it is very doubtful. It was piloted in two | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
areas of deprivation, new and Durham, and the expert behind the | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
research said it would be an overstatement to roll it out | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
universally around the country because it would be very expensive. | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
I also don't think it is fair to put VAT on independent schools because | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
many of them will close. About half a million children go to these | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
schools, if they close they will be going to state schools which puts | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
pressure on state schools. I think the Labour Party need to go back to | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
the drawing board, think about how this money can be better used, and | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
getting more teachers and raising standards, and actually think about | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
more effective uses of the money. APPLAUSE. | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
When the Tory leadership campaign was on, you voted for Michael Gove, | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
didn't you? I did. And it was his idea VAT should be put on school | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
fees. Well, I do support Michael Gove in many ways but I do disagree | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
with him on this. The independent sector does provide some good | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
services and we want to encourage them to do more to support smaller | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
schools and state schools, but I don't think imposing VAT on them is | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
the right way to improve standards in all of our schools which is what | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
we really want to see. Tim Farron. In terms of what the money will be | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
spent on, free school meals for children throughout primary | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
education, this is staggering news that the Labour Party had a good | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
idea. I say that because the Liberal Democrats when we were in coalition | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
made sure preschool children do have free school meals. Why are they a | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
good idea? Firstly it increases educational attainment for young | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
children, it also deals with the Tickner of being on free school | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
meals for everybody, plenty of evidence also that coming off free | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
school meals if you take a low-paid job means it is a benefit trap... | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
The question is about putting VAT on private education. I don't think the | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
Labour Party have done their homework. The danger is if you try | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
to raise the money to pay for this from children going to private | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
schools and the outcome is that fewer people go to private schools, | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
there won't be as much money in the system. The real issue is there is 3 | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
billion being taken out of our schools and we are losing thousands | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
of teachers in the next three years, that's the priority. | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
APPLAUSE. Actually this idea was in the Green Party manifesto in 2010, | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
and we would go further and remove the charitable status from private | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
schools and make them pay corporation tax, and also a lovely | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
because they are getting huge benefits from teachers in teacher | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
training, then they go to the private schools and the private | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
schools get those teachers for free. It's only right they pay a levy. It | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
is fair, if you give universal free school meals to children you are | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
providing that collective sense, it is important we see education in its | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
broadest sense as communal togetherness, but it also means we | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
can claw back the extra money we need through progressive taxation so | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
the richest may be getting the free school meals but they also pay and | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
it goes back into the system. Universality is an important point. | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
I know some people that send their kids to private school, not many but | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
I know they work really hard to get that money together to give their | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
kids the best education. Diane knows how expensive it is. This means they | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
won't be able to do it, but you work hard for your kids. It is well-known | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
Diane sent her child to private school, what do you make of this? I | :06:08. | :06:17. | |
think it is perfectly fair. And as you say I sent my son to private | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
school and I would have been happy to pay more for the scheme like | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
this. The first thing about universal free school meals is it | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
helps working families, who are just getting by but they are not eligible | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
for free school meals because they are not on benefit. The other thing | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
no one mentions is there are important health benefits. If you go | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
to Sweden, they have completely free school meals and they have much | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
better public health outcomes than we do. Finally, as you have herd, it | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
improves academic outcomes. It is completely fair, very good idea and | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
I think it would prove to be very popular. | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
APPLAUSE. Was it one you stole from the Green | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
Party? Did you steal it from Michael Gove? No, we didn't steal it from | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
anybody, it has been brought in in Islington and Southwark for many | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
years now. We already have this in infant schools because when we were | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
in Government we did it, the main difference is we want to be in | :07:28. | :07:38. | |
power. What I don't understand is why we are having this discussion | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
because surely it is the parents' responsibility to feed their | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
children, not the state. Gerard Coyne. Yes, it is fair, and possibly | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
as one of the few members of this panel that went to comprehensive | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
school, I have never understood why private schools have charitable | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
status. Many are operating like businesses and I think they should | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
be taxed like businesses. The money should be reinvested in the state | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
sector. As a teacher I'm extremely concerned about class sizes and as a | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
parent as well, and I absolutely agree that if you are to tax and | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
make private school education more expensive, unfortunately it is going | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
to punish those parents perhaps unlike Diane who are just affording | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
to send their children to those schools, and therefore they will go | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
into state education. I'm lucky I am in a school that is committed to | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
keeping class sizes low. And you think there would be a real problem? | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
Yes, there's only so many places, people struggling to get their | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
children into schools anyway, it will only increase the pressure. I | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
think VAT on private schools is long overdue, it should have been put in | :09:00. | :09:08. | |
place a long time ago. In terms of whether this is the right way of | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
doing it, when Labour were asked what would be the capital | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
expenditure needed to get all of these private schools with the | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
proper catering facilities to do this, they had no idea of the cost | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
of the capital expenditure so the policy needs a lot more thinking | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
through. I think the real injustice is not taxing the private schools | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
but the fact we have a government which is complacent with children | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
going to school hungry because the parents are not being paid enough. | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
There are plenty of families working maximum hours but they are not being | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
paid enough to feed their children the appropriate amount. | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
APPLAUSE. I am also a teacher, I have been | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
teaching for 17 years now, I teach in the secondary sector. It can be | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
very hard to teach children that have not eaten. The dynamics in the | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
classroom can be seriously affected, you get students who are tired, they | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
fall asleep, that then comes back onto the teacher in terms of us | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
having to motivate the students and get them engaged. Sometimes you try | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
your best to do that but because they have not had breakfast or | :10:21. | :10:31. | |
lunch, it can go the other way and they can become hyperactive. | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
I think there are currently three years of schools that get free | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
school meals and I think it is unfair that only half the school is. | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
The idea behind putting VAT on school fees, which is the point, | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
nobody thinks children should go to school hungry, but the idea is | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
whether that on private education is the right way. I think it is. I | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
think we should go on to another question and have a question from | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
Natasha Khan. What action can we take to prevent the Assad regime | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
executing another chemical attack on their own people? | :11:18. | :11:29. | |
APPLAUSE. Suella Fernandes. I think the images we have seen this week of | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
women and children being killed, shows this is a chemical attack by | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
President Assad, they are unforgettable acts of monstrous | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
brutality which are unforgivable. I'm very pleased the UK is taking a | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
lead in trying to get the international community to take | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
action. We have helped to convene an emergency session of the UN Security | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
Council to talk about this, and we have also co-sponsored a UN Security | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
Council resolution to condemn this. I think the international community | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
coming together in this way will send a strong message that Assad has | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
to go. What did you say? That's the microphone to the lady. You haven't | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
answered my question, with all due respect. Statements of condemnation | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
are all very nice, what action can we now take? These people have | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
suffered long enough. APPLAUSE. There are options. Don't | :12:31. | :12:47. | |
forget, in 2013 military action was considered by Parliament against | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
President Assad, but I have to say members of this panel voted against | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
that action and maybe we wouldn't be in this situation if Parliament have | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
secured that action then so we are where we are. Diane Abbott. | :13:00. | :13:08. | |
Of course we want to take action but I have to remind you that Western | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
countries going into the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
trying to stop humanitarian outrages have not been a happy history, and | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
in almost every case there has been more violence and more humanitarian | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
outrages than before they went in. And that's why I wasn't willing to | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
vote for other women's children to go to war in Syria. In the end the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
only people that Assad is going to listen to are the Russians, and | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
internationally we must put pressure on the Russians to call their state | :13:49. | :14:00. | |
to heal and stop this atrocity. We have had two American presidents, | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
Obama in 2012 saying a red line was chemical weapons, nothing happened, | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
we now have President Trump saying this chemical attack crosses many | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
lines, many, many lines, repeated. It's not funny, it is the way he | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
talks, but you have two presidents saying something should be done. If | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
the UK Government won't take military action, do you think the | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
Americans should? I can't speak for Donald Trump, as | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
you can imagine. Yes, I can imagine. The European Union with Britain... | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
America, people that understand about foreign policy in America know | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
that in the end, only the Russians will pull Assad back and it would be | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
deceiving this audience to say that putting British troops on the ground | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
would have a good end. APPLAUSE. | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
You, Sir? We all laugh at President Trump but maybe he could do some | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
good. He can't be any more disastrous than Obama because it was | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Obama that withdrew all the troops from Iraq create ago vacuum of | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
power. We have North Korea launching missiles into the ocean now. We have | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
got Isis killing people across Western Europe and Assad | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
slaughtering his own people. How much worse can it get? Militia Snell | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
I don't want the UK to go to military war with Syria. I just | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
don't want the consequences of that, I just don't want that to happen. So | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
a couple of points on this. I think you cannot tell somebody there is a | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
red line and if you cross it do absolutely nothing about it because | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
when you do that, it means that people know that they can act with | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
impunity which is the situation we are in now. So Syria, they're a | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
member of the chemical weapons convention, they're a consequences | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
-- there are consequences that should be happening. For example, | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
the UN Security Council's imposed sanctions and Russia's blocked them | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
seven times now which is absolutely outrageous. Action number one that | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
we should be taking is, we should be following on with the sanctions, | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
Russia have to stop blocking them. That's point one. Point two, we have | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
got an opportunity with Donald Trump, we have a brand-new Trump | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
administration, he can redefine his red lines and make it absolutely | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
clear, this is our red lines and if you break them, there will be | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
consequences, then what you do is follow up with the consequences, end | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
of story. APPLAUSE. | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
Tim Farron I'll come to you in a moment. The American Secretary of | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
State tillerson said this evening that steps are under way to remove | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
Assad, do you have any confidence that the Americans could actually | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
remove? The Kremlin tonight has said that its support for Assad is not | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
unconditional so that is interesting. But Natasha's question | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
is, what will we actually do. Michelle's talked about something | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
that we could and should do. Fundamentally the thing that we | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
could do quickly a UN Resolution is to create a no-fly zone and | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
humanitarian zone within Syria. You could use, included in that mission, | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
UK planes that are already in the region because I absolutely accept, | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
as Diane says, and as others I'm sure believe also, that a unilateral | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
action here by Trump or by the UK and America together would very | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
likely be counterproductive. However, doing nothing would be just | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
as appalling. Is there a possibility that civilians could be killed? Is | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
there an uncertainty about that? Is there an absolute certainty that | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Assad will continue to murder his own people? And gas children as we | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
saw in the news this morning like the kids who I saw escape from Assad | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
when I met them on Lesbos a few years ago, yes, absolutely that will | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
happen. That's the certainty. The only thing that is unacceptable is | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
that we do nothing. APPLAUSE. | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
OK. You, Sir? Surely part of the rob is the fact that we have a UN which | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
all the panel have mentioned, which is proved over time to be toothless, | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
spineless and never actually achieve anything. We get UN peace-keeping | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
forces, they don't do anything. We get UN Resolutions, we get word of | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
condemnation spoken from the UN but nothing is actually ever... You | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
would rather see what, the Americans answer and the... I'm not sure how | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
exactly you would solve the problem, really, but there needs to be | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
cooperation between international forces and overall, globally | :18:34. | :18:35. | |
accepted international police force that is prepared to go in there and | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
say, if you breach human rights, we will come and get you. All right. | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
Gerard Coyne? Natasha, I think anyone that saw that father putting | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
his two sons and the rest of his family who had died choking to death | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
on souring gas, could not help but want for some action, you know. That | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
is absolutely what everybody in the British public with some of those | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
images would be thinking. The real city that when we look back at 2013 | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
and have hindsight on that, there was equally at that time an outrage | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
about the gas attack and an international consensus. There was a | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
lost opportunity around that international consensus and filling | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
that gap was Russia. After that, it happened. The fact that that gap was | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
then taken over by Russia's intervention in support of Assad | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
caused the situation to get worse. What we now have to do is build that | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
international consensus again to make sure that nerve agents like | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
Sarin are never, ever used again. And that is not... But how? That is | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
not necessarily about troops on the ground. That is the point I'm | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
making, lots of words but how? It's not about having troops on the | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
ground but it is about the fact that the United Nations definitely has a | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
role in this. Yes, but it's it'sless. The reality is, without | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
the UN involvement in that, you are not going to get the consensus. Yes, | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
but you need the UN to do something. Jonathan Bartley? I share your | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
frustration and we are all in agreement that there is no easy | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
magic wand we can wave. What is frustrating is that there is no | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
long-term plan from this Government. We had votes in 2013 and 2015, we | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
have known this has been going on for six yearings, what could we be | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
doing? Freezing the assets of those with blood on their hands, the | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
Russians and the banks, we could be doing that. We could be having an | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
arms embargo on the Middle East. There aren't arms directly going | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
into Syria. If we are bombing Daesh, as we are in that area, we should at | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
least be taking our fair share of refugees. | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
APPLAUSE. The man in the white shirt in the | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
back row on the far side? Are you suggesting that we are going to risk | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
going to war with Russia to intervene over Syria? | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
I think that's what we are actually talking about. You are talking about | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
troops on the ground, or, you know, no-fly zones. If you have a no-fly | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
zone, American planes will be shooting down Russia's forces. I'm | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
not sure that we are going to be willing to go to war with Russia. | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
That is the problem with a no fly zone, people think it's an easy | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
option. There are Russian planes above Syria. We'll be tangling with | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
Russian aircraft. I think we have to realise that there's no simple | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
answer but I think issues like freezing Russian assets, you know, | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
London is a money-laundering centre. We have tried freezing Russia's | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
assets or Ukraine, Crimea. We need to do it properly. You, Sir, in the | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
checked shirt? Clearly Assad's regime has been abusing their | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
citizens, similarly to Saddam Hussein did, but Isis are actually | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
already on the ground there. So if we intervene, as we did in Iraq, | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
everyone knows the mess that's been created. How on earth is it going to | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
be any better than Syria, given that Isis are already there? | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
OK. I would hate for us to do military action in Syria at the | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
moment. I would personally be afraid of the ramifications, that would be | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
my absolute last resort if I was ever to be in charge of those | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
decisions which I hope never to be. There is an issue though, we are all | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
of us, stung and affected by the Iraq war and the sense that there | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
was an illegal and I would say counterproductive British | :22:47. | :22:48. | |
involvement leadership of that war, and that's made us and politicians | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
and maybe society as a whole squeamish about intervening when | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
they jolly well should intervene. The reality is those people will be | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
continued to be killed by Assad unless he thinks something is there | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
to stop it. Your party voted against the war? Because it was illegal and | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
counterproductive. We led the cause for intervention in Kosovo. So what | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
are you saying about this one, let us be clear? We should be using the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
United nations to take action to make sure we police a no-fly zone. | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
Who will police it? The reality is, on the ground, who knows what is | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
possible but all credible options should be looked at because the | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
message Assad has got so far is that he's got complete immunity. I've met | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
refugees, whether in the Far East of the continent in Greece or indeed | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
here around the corner in Gravesend. I can't look those kids in the eye | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
and not want to do something about the cause of their misery. | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
APPLAUSE. Right, we must go on and leave that | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
extremely distressing question. Just before we go on, I should say about | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
Question Time's plans so that you can make a note if you want to. We | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
are not going to be on the air because of Easter in the next two | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
weeks. We are in oaksed for on the 27th, the week after that we are in | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
Wigan and there is the address on the screen. I'll give it again at | :24:12. | :24:21. | |
the end. Oxford and Wigan thee and four weeks from now. Flick Foreman, | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
please, your question? Why are we paying for brex it? We voted to | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
leave so just leave. APPLAUSE. | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
All right. Why are we paying for Brexit, we voted to leave so just | :24:36. | :24:54. | |
leave? You voted to leave didn't you? I wanted us the take control | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
over our own laws and boreders and to get out of the jurisdiction of | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
the European Court of Justice. I'm really glad that the country also | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
saw that... Yes, but what about the question? So, in terms of paying to | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
leave, I don't think that there is any kind of paying to leave. We are | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
going to be gaining by leaving. We've seen today that there are... | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
You believe the boss? I'm very pleased that the... Hold on, hold | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
on. Make your point? There is talk of boar rogue ?50 billion to leave | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
to EU. The leaving fee? Yes, the leaving fee. There are better ideas | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
to spend that money, the NHS, social care and me, I'm a was pill, I want | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
my pension -- WASPI. The Government keeps saying there is no money for | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
this country. We are desperate. Why should we go without our pensions so | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
that we can give the European Union ?50 billion? Not on my watch. | :26:00. | :26:13. | |
Have another go? It's been manufacturered, this, and it doesn't | :26:14. | :26:21. | |
seem likely that there will be such a Bill for ?50 billion, it's part of | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
project fear, health warning, don't believe it. You know, we pay into | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
the European Investment Bank and so actually we are going to get a wind | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
fall from leaving, so I think that the scaremongering about having to | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
pay to leave is just not true. We have a lot to gain. Our best days | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
lie ahead and we are going to be enjoying the freedoms and enjoying | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
the benefits that we gain from leaving. | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
APPLAUSE. Gerard Coyne, do you think we should | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
pay to leave? The reality is that we are going to hear a lot of this over | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
the next two years where, as a negotiator I recognise where once I | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
one side puts something forward, another side puts something else | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
forward. You are going to see negotiations for some time. My | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
concern is the uncertainty around the Brexit process, which is an | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
issue for my members and for industry in the country in general. | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
Actually, the sooner we put the suggestion around having to pay to | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
leave or indeed whether we have assets in the rest of the EU that we | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
can claim back, as soon as we get that out of the way and get on with | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
the process of actually making sure that industry and the employment and | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
economy of the UK gets on with the job, then that's the most important | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
thing for me. We are going to see a lot more of this. | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
You, Sir, in the second row from the back? The man with spectacles? I | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
read that the European Union believed that they have | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
international courts on their side to be able to force Britain to pay | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
this leaving fee-type thing. Is this correct? Is Do you think we should | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
ignore legal opinion on it? The UK legal courts are saying that we | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
don't have to pay it, but international courts are saying we | :28:19. | :28:28. | |
do have to pay it. Michelle Dewberry trained as a lawyer, who do you | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
think? I didn't train as a lawyer but I did vote. We are far into the | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
Brexit process and I want to almost just calm down a little bit and not | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
get so hysterical about every single thing that'll come from either side | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
of the fence because we are entering into a negotiation. We are about, I | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
don't know, a couple of days into setting out our ideas of what the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
negotiation could look like. So far we have had stories about | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
potentially going to war, we are talking about divorce bills and it's | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
just like, calm down. So I think what we need to do is just, we are | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
in a negotiation, lots of people are going to be asking for lots of | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
different things, they probably are not going to get them. Terminology | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
is quite important. We are not divorce billing or paying to leave, | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
will we have some contractual commitments that we will have to | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
pay? Possibly. Are they going to be ?50 billion? I don't know. And nor | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
does anybody else. So don't get swept away with the kind of hysteria | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
that's surrounding it. Keep calm and see what happens. | :29:30. | :29:30. | |
APPLAUSE. The man in the grey. I can't help | :29:31. | :29:43. | |
but feel that this topic of conversation only fans the flames in | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
the sense of we have the far right, the National party in France at the | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
moment, we had elections in most parts of Europe within the EU, they | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
seemed to go towards the right-wing populism thing. The world is | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
watching what we are doing at the moment and they will be saying, look | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
what they are making the UK do paving this massive bill. They are | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
trying to treat us like this, we need to get out of the EU, all they | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
want is our money. I think it's important to raise the | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
question why the Remain campaign didn't set up these issues in the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
referendum campaign. If they were set out more clearly and succinctly, | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
the short-sighted decision that was made in terms of voting to leave | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
would not be made. I would like to see a more positive EU campaign. | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
Sorry, I didn't get your name. I think we have seen a right-wing coup | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
in this country already with the Government pushing a right wing | :30:50. | :31:00. | |
Brexit. The issues we have seen... It is not an extreme Brexit. The | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
issue over Gibraltar I think will be a symbol of the problems with this | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
process. Gibraltar either have to sacrifice their sovereignty, which | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
they don't want, or they have to sacrifice the freedom of movement on | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
which their economy depends. 12,000 people come into Gibraltar everyday | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
to work and their economy depends on it. Think about Ireland and the | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
issues around the border there, we are one week into Brexit and I think | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
the wheels are already coming the Brexit bus. Tim, I'm coming to you, | :31:38. | :31:46. | |
eat you say the wheels are coming off the bus, you know how the | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
country voted, should that be ignored? They didn't vote for a | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
country that was less prosperous. How do you know how prosperous the | :31:57. | :32:05. | |
country will be? How do you know what people voted for? The | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
Government has already said we will have to lose potentially a third of | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
our environmental protections. You are assuming people voted the way | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
they did, you don't like the way they voted so you are assuming the | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
worst motives. Maybe they knew what they were doing. You cannot say they | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
didn't know what they were doing. Both sides voted in good faith, and | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
I think there was a terrible referendum campaign and people were | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
misled, but we did have the option of staying in the single market and | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
leaving. This version of Brexit which the Government are pushing | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
forward... Stop talking down our country, stop patronising voters, | :32:51. | :32:57. | |
let's be more positive. Tim Farron. Am I right in saying if we don't | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
leave the European Union we don't have to pay ?50 billion? If so, I | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
will hire a bus and stick it on the side of it. If you lose, you should | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
accept the result with good grace and you don't give up. If you | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
believe... Not my figures but the Conservative government's figures, | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
of course I would resist a one-off ?50 billion payment, but the | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
Government 's own figures saying 100 billion extra per year in debt | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
because of the choice of a hard Brexit. Theresa May is not enacting | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
the will of the people. If you are being generous she is interpreting | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
the will of the people. The single market was not on the ballot paper, | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
maybe you wanted out of it, maybe not, we don't know because you | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
weren't asked. That is why, if you want a Democrat you do not want to | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
allow the politicians to rubber-stamp this stitch up in two | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
years' time, you want the people to decide. I just wanted to ask, do you | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
think Brexit will have an impact on the NHS workforce at all? Diane | :34:13. | :34:20. | |
Abbot. Responding to that specifically, we have in the NHS and | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
social care workforce I think it is 80,000 social care workers and | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
40,000 doctors from the EU. If we had an end of free movement | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
tomorrow, certainly social care in London and the south-east would | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
collapse so it will have an effect. The problem is even before we have | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
gone into negotiation, EU doctors and EU social care workers are | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
leaving their jobs. Universities are finding people from Europe are not | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
applying for jobs so it is having an effect now. Let me say this in | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
response to the question about will we have to pay. The Labour Party | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
voted to trigger Article 50 because we respect the result of the | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
referendum. I am one of the few members of Parliament who voted | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
against the Maastricht Treaty because there are elements of Europe | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
I have always been sceptical about. Gerard said there is uncertainty, | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
one thing that is certain is we have Treaty obligations to the EU. These | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
are legal obligations, and I don't know how much money we are up for | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
for having signed this treaty, but they are treaty obligations. The | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
other thing that is certain is this, on the question of freedom of | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
movement, and people have different views about freedom of movement | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
because they see it as a euphemism for immigration and such, but on the | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
question of freedom of movement, without it we will not have access | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
to the single market and thousands of Gerard's members will lose their | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
jobs in companies like euro Eurobus. There is a lot of fear and | :36:02. | :36:17. | |
worry about this but some things are facts and the importance of access | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
to the single market is a fact. Just to come back on the issue around | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
freedom of movement, I have said that somebody who voted for Remain I | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
have accepted the result of the referendum and said OK, we face up | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
to the of that. One of the realities around that is you cannot have | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
access to the single market without freedom of movement, and most | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
people, certainly in the context of the discussion after the referendum, | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
felt migration was an issue and that's why they voted. In terms of | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
the specific issue around the NHS, I have argued the case we should | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
ensure those European migrants who are here should stay, just as the | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
same situation for UK nationals living in the EU. We have a golden | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
opportunity in terms of its skills agenda for our nation. For too long, | :37:11. | :37:26. | |
two decades, employers have had the opportunity to recruit outside of | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
the UK, they have taken skills off-the-shelf from Europe instead of | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
investing in the workforce and the long-term unemployed. We now have | :37:32. | :37:32. | |
the chance to do that and we should not waste | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
two years, we should start the process now. I would like to ask | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
Diane Abbott, you say you respect the will of the people, but do you | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
have any remorse or apology to make for the disgusting lie you made | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
against me and millions of innocent people who voted Leave when you said | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
that because they voted Leave they don't like the look of foreign | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
people, they must be racist or xenophobe. I voted to leave not | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
because of the colour of their skin, it was to leave the European Union. | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
You have caused so much distress and hurt to me, it is a disgrace. One of | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
the people I most admired in politics was Tony Benn and if he was | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
alive today he would have voted to come out of the EU, so I would never | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
say people would vote to come out because they were racist... The | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
month after the accident vote we had a 41% rise in race hate, we saw the | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
terrible killing of the Kurdish boy in Croydon. I'm not saying there | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
weren't good reasons to come out, but let's be clear about the rise in | :38:45. | :38:53. | |
hate crimes that we have seen since. It was very irresponsible of you to | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
stir up this unfounded suggestion that people who voted to leave the | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
European Union are somehow racist, and that the awful killing in | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
Croydon was motivated by Brexit, there is no proof of that and it is | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
irresponsible and disrespectful. APPLAUSE. | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
Suella, you are not listening to me. I would never say people like Tony | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
Benn were racist, and it is not me saying there was a 41% rise in hate | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
crime, it was the Metropolitan Police. Do you think they asked | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
erring up hatred? When we say hate crime, you have websites where | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
people can press big red buttons and register a hate crime because people | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
conceive they are getting logged, validated, and I am fed up with | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
Brexit getting the blame for everything. I want to make a point | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
and it is not about hate crime, I'm taking it back to something else. I | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
have heard you talk about extreme Brexit, you talk about hard Brexit, | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
and I am fed up with it. We were asked if we wanted to be in the | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
European Union, yes or no. I voted out, it doesn't make me better or | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
worse, more intelligent or less intelligent than anybody else, it | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
makes me untitled is my opinion. Brexit for me means leaving the | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
European Union, it doesn't mean me moving house, it is not extreme, it | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
is not hard, it is Rex it, we are just leaving the EU and its | :40:40. | :40:41. | |
associated bodies. APPLAUSE. | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
The last week should have proved to you that it is not that | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
straightforward. The bottom line is this, when this point is proved is | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
that Brexit has divided the country in a cultural way, in a nasty way, | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
and it breaks my heart. I want Britain to be united in or out of | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
Europe. Being in the single market is worth ?100 billion a year to the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
United Kingdom, the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that. If I was | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
the Prime Minister of a country that had a score draw, people have voted | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
Leave but narrowly, what would you do? Go for an extreme Brexit or try | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
to bring the country together and have a modest approach towards | :41:31. | :41:42. | |
having a membership of the single market? That is what you would do if | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
you are trying to bring Britain together and not divided. Tim, | :41:46. | :41:47. | |
regardless of you cannot go through Rex it kicking and screaming or not, | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
we are leaving the EU, so it's a natural time to make us come | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
together, not go against the Government, and we are leaving, | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
regardless of the single market or not. Get over it. We had a | :41:59. | :42:07. | |
discussion. I respect your view is different | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
from mine, but what I would like you to do is, if you believe strongly in | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
your view, put it in the manifesto, and we can decide, have another | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
referendum and people will decide if they want to vote for it. | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
For me, we should ask the European Union to justify their demand. I | :42:31. | :42:40. | |
think there is a whole area of policy areas where we should | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
negotiate, we cannot work on our own, but we should bear in mind that | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
the European Union is only 7% of the world population. Diane Abbott, you | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
deliberately, just like Nick Clegg two weeks ago, you are confusing | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
access to the single market... The statement you made is factually | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
incorrect. We must move on to another question. With benefits cuts | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
on the sick, disabled and vulnerable, are we returning to | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
Dickensian times? APPLAUSE. | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
The benefits cuts that take effect today, affecting Windows and third | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
children, all the rest of it. Gerard Coyne. Yes, we are, I think so. The | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
reality is we are facing a situation where there are 13.5 million people, | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
defined by the Rowntree foundation as being in poverty. 7 million of | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
those in the UK are working at the moment so the reality that the | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
attacks on tax credits that come through this week will have a direct | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
impact on so many families in this country, added to which some of the | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
measures brought in in relation to the two child limit, it has been | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
reported in the news today that there is an eight page document that | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
is required if you are going over the two child limit, if you have | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
been a victim of rape or forced her worst sex. That is unbelievable, it | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
is barbaric to suggest that somebody who has endured that has to justify | :44:31. | :44:39. | |
claiming benefit over that two child limit, so yes we have gone | :44:40. | :44:40. | |
backwards. Sewell? -- Sewell la? We need to | :44:41. | :44:55. | |
make it fairer and distribute it amongst the people who genuinely | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
need it but also help them on to working so that work pays in a | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
fairer way -- Suella Hernandez. The changes we are seeing today do that. | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
They try and resolve historic unfairness whereby those people | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
who're in the middle, so we have got people who can't work, people who | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
can, people who're disabled or ill but can do a bit and are on the | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
route to working. This is about redistributing and making it fairer, | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
a more sustainable way for providing for them so they can get back into | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
work. We need to be reasonable with how we spend benefits and welfare | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
because we need to make work pay. That is what gives people the | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
dignity, making people more able to work even if they've got | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
disabilities, even if they've got illness but also supporting those | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
people who're vulnerable so they don't feel they are being abandoned. | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
One of the changes you are bringing in today is about the employment | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
support allowance, the work related activity group. These are people who | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
this Government accepts are too sick or too ill or too disabled to work | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
at this moment. And you are introducing a 33% cut in their | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
benefit today. That is despicable, outrageous, that you would talk on | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
the one hand about getting people into employment... | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
APPLAUSE. If you told me 20 years ago that we | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
would be living in a country where there are a million emergency food | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
bank parcels given out a year, 100,000 people relying on food banks | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
to get food for their families, I would not have believed you. How've | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
we come to this state? These are people who're in work. I want to | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
finish this, because these are people who're in work trying to work | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
but who aren't being paid enough either through benefits or work, | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
it's despicable. APPLAUSE. | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
Actually, what we are doing is using the money more effectively. Personal | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
support packages, costing ?330 million will be there for people | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
who're disabled who want to work. We have introduced the taper on | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
Universal Credit so people will be able to keep more of what they earn. | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
You have got to look at it in the round. It's got to be reasonable and | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
we have got to make it fair. Diane Abbott, what do you make of the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
changes, particularly to the third child, widows down from 20 years of | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
support to 18 months. Is he right to point to the employment? The changes | :47:27. | :47:34. | |
are the Tories are making are cruel and unfair. We are living in a | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
society where people on welfare are being demonised and people forget | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
actually that maybe 40% of people on welfare are old age pensioners, not | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
WASPI women as the lady mentioned there, but they are pensioner, | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
another 10-20% are taking in-work benefits but bit by bit with | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
programmes like Benefits Street and the way politicians are talking, we | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
are encouraged to demonise people. As for the idea that we want work to | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
pay, work is not paying. That's why thousands of people, working people, | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
every week have to go to food banks. We have got more people in work, the | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
national living wage has gone up and that's because of the strong economy | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
that the Conservatives have overseen. What sort of work, Suella? | :48:25. | :48:32. | |
Under Labour, unemployment rose. Michelle Dewberry? I support your | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
view in terms of getting people into work and the rest of it and I'm a | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
fan of that, that is brilliant, but you have to also understand there | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
are some people for whatever reason who're not able to work and it makes | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
me feel really uncomfortable actually that we would tackle those | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
people that for whatever reason need that welfare to support themselves, | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
support their family, going after disabled people while simultaneously | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
not investing the same amount of time and energy, the lad corporates | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
who're avoiding tax and evading tax. APPLAUSE. | :49:06. | :49:13. | |
Tim Farron It's really important to remember who it is that gets hit by | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
this, this is people with Alzheimer's, young people, | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
18-21-year-olds who without Housing Benefit all the housing charities | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
say there'll be a rise in street homelessness as a consequence of all | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
of this and people who've lost their husband, wife, father or mother of | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
their child losing vast amounts of support. This says something really | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
horrible about Britain, Cruel Britannia. We should be ashamed of | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
this. APPLAUSE. | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
I am somebody who wants a strong economy and all the evidence around | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
the world is that the countries with strong welfare safety nets allow | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
business people, entrepreneurs, to take bigger risks because they know | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
they won't fall too far. If you have an ever-shrinking state, an | :50:02. | :50:03. | |
undermined welfare state which unpicks all the things that were put | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
together after the war, then you make a harder environment for | :50:08. | :50:09. | |
business people to do well. This is bad for our morality as a country | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
and our success as a country. APPLAUSE. | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
Some points from the audience then we'll move on. You in blue? You will | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
be saving over ?500 million with these tax cuts, where will that | :50:24. | :50:31. | |
money be spent? ?5 billion a year. I think it was directed at Suella. | :50:32. | :50:38. | |
Sorry. If we are talking about cuts in corporation tax, that's been | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
spent over and over by Labour. We have got to reduce public spending | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
and I'm glad that under this Conservative Government we have | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
managed to cut the deficit by two thirds and get our house back in | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
order. A strong economy underlines everything that we do when it comes | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
to Public Services. By tackling the weakest members of society... | :51:01. | :51:01. | |
APPLAUSE. No. We are providing packages for | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
people who're disabled and who want to get back into work, we are | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
investing in our NHS and our schools. That's all because we've | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
got a strong economy. Trust any of these parties and I trust you, I | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
tell you, we'll see the economy tag and it will be job losses that will | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
suffer at the end of the day. The man in the white shirt at the back? | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
The simple solution showerly is to spend our overseas aid money on our | :51:30. | :51:38. | |
own people -- the solution surely. You think that would... It would | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
alleviate a lot. You are meant not to disagree with the public but I | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
disagree. My sense is, who are the people we should at least target to | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
save money, the poorest people in the world, I don't think so. What | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
does that say about Britain, just as much as targeting the bereaved, | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
those with Alzheimer's and those that need Housing Benefit. If we | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
contract our economy, we should tax those who've got the most, not the | :52:05. | :52:06. | |
least. APPLAUSE. | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
We've got four or five minutes left. Jennifer's question, please? Should | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
Ken Livingstone be expelled from the Labour Party? Ah! Should Ken | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
Livingstone be expelled? I wonder who we should go to on this first? | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
Diane Abbott! LAUGHTER. | :52:25. | :52:33. | |
There is an argument... Yes or no! ? There is an argument about talking | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
less about Ken Livingstone because he actually enjoys it. OK. But what | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
I would say is this - Ken's insistence on making totally | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
spurious and hurtful and hate-mongering links between Hitler | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
and Zionism has appalled most of us in the Labour Party. What's worse, | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
he keeps on repeating it. He keeps on repeating it. I do not have a say | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
of whether he gets expelled but he's coming up once again before our NCC | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
who are the Labour Party body which decides on these things... Why | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
weren't they able to decide this time? Why do they have to do it all | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
over again, the third time he's been up? It says a lot about the Labour | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
Party. No, it says a lot about Ken Livingstone. Diane, just explain | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
that the NCC makes the decision. Nay take the decision? Yes. Why did they | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
take the decision they did? I didn't see the evidence in front of them. ? | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
You have just described the evidence. No, no, no, no, no, I | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
didn't see the entire evidence. Ken is prepared to go to court. They | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
clearly didn't feel they had a strong enough case. But it's going | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
to come back in front of the committee. But let's be clear, the | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
Labour Party is appalled by - not just what Ken's said, but he's kept | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
repeating it. Yes or no? If he is expelled from the party, and, you | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
know, let's be clear, the Should he be expelled? If Ken is I don't think | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
you are going to get the answer yes or no. Should I answer the question. | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
What is your view? Yes he should go. OK. Why do you think he should go? | :54:29. | :54:36. | |
It's an affront to the six million Jews that lost their lives and their | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
families in the Holocaust. What is going wrong? There is an issue about | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
anti-Semitism. During my campaign to stand for General Secretary of | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
Unite, I've been subjected to hate crime as a result of speaking to a | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
Jewish newspaper. Now, that is a real issue and if we don't deal with | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
it, and we don't send a clear message as was said by the member of | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
the audience, he has to go and we should show him the door and Diane, | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
we have to kick him out. OK. | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
All right. Tim Farron briefly? Yes, he should go. It's very clear that | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
whether Ken is an anti-Semitic person or not, his rhetoric | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
undoubtedly breeds exactly the kind of thing Gerard is talking about and | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
gives people on the far right too succour to believe it's OK to say | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
this kind of stuff. It's quite sad. Whatever you think of his politics, | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
he was a pretty good Mayor of London, this was a relatively | :55:40. | :55:41. | |
serious man who 'll now be remembered as somebody who's some | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
kind of borderline racist, what a massive tragedy. Has he changed | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
since you worked for him? Or worked with him? No, Ken was a great Mayor | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
of London, he really was. And it's very sad for those that have known | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
him for decades to see what has happened. But when Gerard says that | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
the Labour Party has a problem with institutional racism, I'm sorry that | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
you feel... I said anti-Semitism. One and the same. When you say that, | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
I'm sorry you feel the need to attack your party. I'm proud of the | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
Labour Party's record on fighting racism and anti-Semitism. That's why | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
I feel Ken Livingstone needs to be dealt with hopefully with a little | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
less talking. I would prefer if he dealt with this issue properly. | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
Suella briefly? A Labour Party issue? It's bigger than Ken | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
Livingstone, he should apologise and should be expelled. They have had a | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
problem with it, Shami Chakrabarti wrote a report about anti-Semitism, | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
it's renowned by a whitewash by the Jews and she was awarded with a | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
peerage. That sends a toxic message that it's OK. Have you read it? Have | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
you read it? Jeremy Corbyn says he's friends with Hamas and Hezbollah, | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
he's got a liberal lack of moral leadership, that's the cause of it. | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
He needs to develop a backbone and take action so show that zero | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
tolerance is a reaction, not an illusion. You wanted to speak on | :57:15. | :57:22. | |
this point? Do do think he should be expelled. I won't make political | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
points but there is an issue we have to address as a country around | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
anti-Semitism and the rise in hate and we have to face up to. I don't | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
believe the referendum, going back to that, I don't believe that was | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
the cause of hate crime. It's like the geneny came out of the bottle | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
and it's about decades of this whipping up and not challenging it | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
hard enough and we are reaping what we have sown. There is a broader | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
question we must address as a country. Michelle? | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
APPLAUSE. I think that the Labour Party is | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
letting people down so much now in so many different ways and this is | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
just another example of it. I think that if you think that somebody's | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
done something wrong, and they're deemed to have done something | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
wrong... Are you saying Ken is an anti-Semitism person? It doesn't | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
matter, he's bringing your party into disrepute. Your party is a joke | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
for numerous different reasons. This is just one of them and you have got | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
to get some credibility, some backbone. He shouldn't be there and | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
I'm sure you know that as well as I do. I'm going to have to stop this | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
because our time is up. I'm sorry about that. Apologies to those who | :58:33. | :58:42. | |
have your hands up. Question Time will be back after Easter. We take a | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
two-week break now. We are in Oxford on April 27th and Wigan on 4th May. | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
The website address is on the screen and the telephone number if you want | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
to get in touch to take part. Question Time extra time goes on. | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
Here in Gillingham, the debate ends, so thanks to the panelists, and all | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
of you who came here and, until 27th April, good night. | :59:11. | :59:19. |