04/05/2017 Question Time

Welcome to Question Time and tonight, we are in Wigan.

On our panel here, the man in charge of Brexit, the Secretary of State

for Exiting the EU, the Conservative David Davis. Labour's Shadow

Business Secretary, Rebecca Long-Bailey. The leader of Ukip,

Paul Nuttall. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the boss of

Siemens UK, Juergen Maier. Thank you very much. Just before we

start, remember you can join in these debates. Twitter, our hashtag

is bbcqt. On Facebook search for BBC Question Time. Press the red button

and see what others are saying. Mark Buckley please, our first question

comes from you. Considering the recent rhetoric coming from Europe,

do we need a bloody difficult woman to negotiate Brexit?

APPLAUSE. Well, before we come to the

politicians, Juergen Maier, do we need a bloody difficult woman to

negotiate Brexit? Well what I think we need above all is, we need a

little bit more calm and we need a little bit more rational debate.

Now, that doesn't mean that it can't get difficult and, you know, clearly

there are going to be difficult players on both sides. But in the

end, what is going to get us through these very important and very

difficult negotiations is if both sides just spend more time

understanding each other's position and that also means that we in the

UK have to spend much, much more time understanding where is the EU

coming from on this, we have to understand that on our side and when

we do that, we've got a chance of getting a good deal and we damn well

need to get a good deal. APPLAUSE.

So, as an outsider to this, was the Prime Minister right to say on the

steps to the BBC, that the next person to find out she's a bloody

difficult woman would be Jean-Claude Juncker? Was that a sensible thing

to say, or was that provocative in the way you don't want to see the

negotiations conducted? Well, the way that I see it is, we are in an

election, you know, and we've had a week where emotions just ran a

little bit high. I guess it is to be expected at this point that you get

a bit of positioning. That's what you get in tough negotiations. But

I'm pretty confident that when we, after the elections, when we get

into the real debate, I think it will be what's right for the

country, not what's right for your own political party and we'll get

some calm and proper debate, I hope. Rebecca Long-Bailey? Well, look, I

think the displays that we've seen over the last 48-hours have been

very worrying, suggesting quite an unstable approach taken by the Prime

Minister. What's even more worrying is that she was using the EU as an

electioneering tool, one of the biggest decisions this country's had

to make. And even more worrying than that, were the comments we'd heard

had been made by Juncker. He said that at the recent meeting she

wasn't fully briefed. Apparently Angela Merkel said she lived in

another galaxy in terms of the things she was putting forward. But

ultimately, what we need to see now is a Government that puts

collaboration and patriotism at the part of our Brexit negotiations so

that they get a deal for the many, not the few, and turn us into a tax

haven which is the threats we have had from Philip Hammond. We need

patriotism in terms of British industry. We want the see the

Government giving industry the tools it needs to succeed. For example, we

asked the Government to provide support for reshoring UK supply

chains to make sure manufacturer was brought back to this country and

brought down costs for this country. The Government seems intent on

offering bespoke deals to one or two businesses and leaving the rest to

rot. That's not an industrial strategy. We asked them to plug the

skills gap to make sure businesses had the skills and we had a high

skilled workforce ready to go. They cut the adult skills budget by ?1.

36 billion. Before we get into too much detail, let us deal with the we

of attitude and the Prime Minister said she's a bloody difficult woman,

quoting what Ken Clarke said about her. Would Jeremy Corbyn be a bloody

difficult man negotiating Brexit? I think you need to have a mixture of

being very robust and pursuing the needs your country has, alongside an

air of winning friends and influencing people, shall I say and

Theresa May certainly hasn't displayed the charisma we need to

negotiate our way through these talks. OK.

APPLAUSE. David Davis? Well, let's go back to

the start of this. There was the dinner. I was at the dinner. I won't

tell you much about it because it was supposedly private. What came

out afterwards was a leak. It was a misleading briefing to position the

commission in one position and trying to undermine the position of

the British Government. And the response to that by the Government,

by the Prime Minister was, we simply said we don't recognise this. That

was all. It was very polite. And for 48-hours we stuck to that. Why? We

want to keep this stable, calm and sensible, like Rebecca said, so we

get the outcome for both sides. That's been our stance all the way

through. Then we had further briefings, we are going to have to

pay ?100 billion, the Prime Minister won't be able to negotiate. The line

was then crossed. What was happening was that the Commission was trying

to bully the British people and the British people will not be bullied

and the Government will not allow them to be so she made the point she

made and she was right to do so. Now, at the end of this, what we are

aiming for is a very good deal. A very good deal for the British

people. Based on what they voted on in the referendum, taking back

control of our laws, borders and money, and deliver ago comprehensive

Free Trade Agreement protecting all business and to give us the security

we need that we have currently. So for all those reasons we are very

lucky we have got a bloody difficult woman and I think we are very

good... APPLAUSE.

A lot of hands up. Let me hear from one or two members of the audience?

You, there? I think it's a bit rush Rebecca, you are sat there saying

Theresa May wasn't fully briefed after Labour's performance on

reeling out some of her policies this week.

OK. And you on the right? It just seems to me she said that phrase as

a device in the general election to make sure all the people that want

Brexit and want a hard Brexit vote for her. She's not said that device

to actually help us negotiate with the EU. That's right...

APPLAUSE. You, Sir, at the back? To me, the

statement she came out with shows a lack of negotiating skills. I

thought negotiation was people sitting around a table trying to

achieve the best outcome for all parties. She's adopting Donald

Trump's tactics and we know what he does to negotiators, he drops a big

bomb on somebody. We don't want that. It won't work, that.

What about the EU Commission President saying Brexit can't be a

success and she's living in another galaxy, that's aggressive too? Well,

she is. Oh, she is? For many other reasons. But she doesn't actually

say anything of substance, she comes out with sound bites all of the

time. It's globals. It was said... You, Sir? Can Theresa May deliver on

Brexit because she's never delivered on a promise in her life, as far as

I can see. APPLAUSE.

David Davis, a brief answer from you then the other members of the panel

I haven't spoken to. Never deliver on a promise. She was Home Secretary

in over six years in which crime came down by 30%. That's pretty good

delivering. Did it go down throughout Europe... Hang on. The

point about negotiating. The man was saying up there, you have to accept

in this process that there'll be difficult times. I've said a dozen

times in the House of Commons, there'll be times in this when it

will get tough and they'll try to test out our patience and

willingness to play the game. The real skill in the negotiations is

finding the area where both sides benefit. What Juergen does every day

in his business, where both sides benefit. That's what we've done.

We've said we want the European Union to succeed. We've said we'll

be a good European citizen even though we are not in the European

Union. We have said we want a free trade deal to help everybody, not

just the one. That's what a good negotiator does and that's what we

are going to deliver on. Leanne Wood?

I think this was more to do with the election than to do with the EU

negotiations and I think it's irresponsible to use something like

this as big as this and important as this as an election issue.

APPLAUSE. Of course she said they were trying

to interfere in the British election. Do you think that? I don't

accept that if I'm honest. I think that she's trying to approach this

with quite an aggressive attitude, it's the wrong attitude, it's not

the attitude that's going to get the best deal. She needs to be much more

open-minded and I think this is quite an English nationalist

approach and Rebecca talked earlier about the need for patriotism. It's

quite clear that Theresa May is speaking on behalf of England.

That's clear to me. That's why she's 10% ahead in Wales then, the leading

party in Wales is now the Conservative Party? If you are

referring to a poll that Kim out recently, let's wait and see the

next poll because there are big questions as to the voracity of

that. Let's wait to see the result - even better. Yes, the local

elections. If we are talking about patriotism, we have Theresa May

speaking on behalf of nationalism, the SNPs speak on behalf of

Scotland. What Wales needs now is someone to speak on behalf of Wales.

We've been ignored and neglected as a country through all of this

process and it's vital now that in this election Wales sends a large

team of Plaid Cymru MPs to Westminster to defend the Welsh

national interest because at the moment our needs are getting

completely ignored in all of this. The woman in blue? People say she's

a difficult woman and it's a smoke screen her bringing in more

austerity. If she wins the general election there'll be more cuts and

austerity. I agree... And privatisation as well. Paul Nuttall?

Remember the question Mark asked - do we need a bloody difficult woman

to negotiate Brexit? Well, on Theresa May's record, I would say

that she's a failure actually. You look at her record as Home

Secretary. This was the Home Secretary who said that she would

get the numbers of people coming to this country down to the tens of

thousands. Last year it was a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne. So

her record isn't that great. What we do need is someone who will go into

these negotiations and actually be prepared to walk away, walk away if

we don't get the deal we want. APPLAUSE.

Because frankly, no deal is better than a bad deal. You are quoting her

aren't you? That's what she said? No. The difference is, I mean it. I

don't think she does. The EU is showing its true colours here.

Within the space of 48-hours, our divorce bill went from ?50 billion

to ?100 billion. OK. Now, they're on dodgy legal ground with this anyway

but we shouldn't be paying the divorce bill into an organisation

whereby we have given it in membership fees alone ?183 billion

since 1973. We've got ?9 billion tied up in the European Investment

Bank, we I don't know some of the EU's real estate. They have ?156

billion worth of real estate in Europe. We shouldn't be paying a

divorce bill to this organisation. Real who we are, Great Britain, the

seventh largest economy in the world and the Prime Minister should go

into these negotiations confident that she can get the best deal

possible. APPLAUSE.

Let's stick with this but maybe we'll come back to what went on at

Number Ten as David Davis described it. Robert Langley, your question,

please? How much is too much, ?50 billion, ?60 billion or ?100

billion? David, I'm not going to do

the negotiation here. The aim of this exercise, remember,

is to get a successful outcome, not just to talk

about the successful outcome. And we are determined

to get the successful But the point he raised

is actually a very good one, that in the course of this exercise,

which Leanne thought was perfectly reasonable behaviour

by the European Union, they upped the ante from 50 to 100

with no reason whatsoever, except as an intimidation play

in a negotiation. So we're not going to get

into debating that. We're going to say we want

talk about free trade, because that's beneficial

to both sides. The history of the European Union

is trying to make other countries pay for the privilege of trading

with them, when free trade Remember, they sell 290 billion

to us, we sell 230 billion to them. So Paul's right, we have a strong

hand, that's where we stand. I find it laughable

that the Conservatives are commenting on the Brexit

campaign and commenting on how much we have to pay

to exit the European Union, when they were the ones who actually

said, "This is how much money we're going to give back to the NHS

as a result of that". Or is it just this that

you are complaining about? We may come to the NHS later

on in the programme. Well, look, I think we're living

in cloud cuckoo land if we think we're going to get away

without paying anything at all. I don't know what the exact figure's

going to be but this highlights the importance of having a skilful

negotiator on our side in the form of a Prime Minister, somebody that

can negotiate obligations down. I'd highlight the importance

of making sure that we adhere to our obligations, because let's

remember, we're going to be making trade deals

across the world and we have to look like a partner that keeps

up our side of the bargain, otherwise nobody will want to sign

any free trade agreements with us. But I also want to go back

to a point David made And he talked about policing

and how crime has fallen. In the last year, violence against

the person has increased by 19%. Let's look at some of

the other obligations... Hang on, that's not

the question I asked you, which is what is Labour's position

on the 50, 60 or 100 billion? Because you can talk

about Theresa May until the cows come home, but people want to know

what Labour thinks, too. We need to make sure

we are in a strong position to negotiate, and we need to make

sure we win friends and influence Of course, but do you have any idea

of the kind of figure that Well, as I say, it's all part

of the negotiations. Well, David, is 100

billion acceptable? What figure have you said that

you're going to set as a benchmark? You want me to give

a minimum amount here. That's a very good

tactic in negotiations, Which, I'm afraid,

is a demonstration. Labour have had six different

positions on this in the course It's a decision not just

on what is said publicly, it's Do you trust Theresa May to do

this, or do you trust And that's a decision

the British people will make. You poured scorn on the upping

from 50 to 100 billion. You would treat 100 billion

as beyond the pale? That's all I want to know,

so you are putting down a benchmark. I think we're in danger of having

the wrong conversation here. At the end of the day,

I think there is going We don't know what

that is going to be. David Davis, you've said yourself

there are some liabilities There are some support programmes

that the EU has made So, therefore, we have to pay

for that for a period of time. But what I would like to hear much

more about is what is the vision Because once we have

decided what that vision is, it might just make the fact

that we have to make some contribution a little

bit more palatable. For example, we definitely do want

to continue to have a relationship We probably want to have

a relationship about climate change. We probably want to continue

to participate in some I am not here arguing in any way

that we want to stay part of the single market,

but there are certain areas. So let's have a vision for those,

describe them, and then we can get on to a conversation

of how much we really owe. Juergen is exactly right

and that is something that The vision here is a global Britain

that trades with the whole world. Remember, nearly 60% of our trade

now is with other parts of the world, most of which we don't

have a free-trade agreement with. So in the next few years we will be

developing the basis of free trade agreements with the fastest-growing

parts of the world, the Indian The areas where actually Wales

is selling most at the moment. But don't forget, 44% of our trade

is still with the European Union, vitally important for British

businesses, and we need to find And that's the point

about the comprehensive free trade agreement,

it's designed to protect what we have whilst freeing us up

to actually develop markets We have the English language,

the culture, the Commonwealth, So it's a real vision for a great

future for this country The danger is that it will be

like TTIP, the trade deal with America that was rejected,

which risked opening up And the Tories have failed

to guarantee not opening up I want to go to the audience,

but David Davis, you began talking a bit about the dinner party

at Number Ten. It was reported that the President

of the EU Commission said, "Brexit cannot be a success",

and that Theresa May It doesn't sound very promising

at the start of negotiations. I'm not going to talk about

the dinner party, as you call it. It was very convivial,

as you could watch when they came out, everyone was joking

and laughing together. So a lot of this briefing

has been nonsense. But the point you made

about his comment about it cannot be a success, early on in this process,

immediately after the referendum, there was talk about

punishing Britain. Then they realised that was perhaps

not particularly acceptable to British people and they talked

instead about Britain cannot be allowed to do better

outside than inside. Frankly, that's not

for them to decide. How we do outside is down to us,

as an independent nation standing Don't you want to try and have

a good relationship with the EU? With all these billions

being mentioned, with the French election and the possible

Marine Le Pen getting in, if there's a referendum

and they come out and they do a Frexit, what I'm wondering is,

if it's a domino effect, is it the last man standing gets

all the money? I'm a little tired of

listening to a bad Brexit Why don't we just let these

guys get on with it. All we hear is rhetoric

in the newspaper, on the television. In a month's time we are going

to have a confirmation Let them get on with it

and we'll see where it takes Not stop talking about it,

but hard and soft, the rhetoric isn't doing

us any good. I think the fact that the EU

is asking for any money for Britain undertaking a democratic exercise

is frankly ridiculous, and it shows that we're dealing

with bloody difficult men. That was the question

that Robert asked. That's like asking in a divorce

settlement before you go to court, does one partner get half the house,

a quarter of the house, I mean, the point of negotiation

is to be like adults, to sit around a table and to try

and sort things out And going into these

negotiations with the attitude the Prime Minister has got,

all superior, we are better than them over there in Europe,

is the wrong way to go about it. The only people that will end

up with all the money in all of this are the lawyers,

like they do in a real divorce. We don't know how much that will be

yet, but we do know that that promise of ?350 million

that was on that bus, that they said would go

to the NHS every week, that is the figure that they rowed

back on straight away. And many people that I know

in the constituency I represent back in Wales are desperate to see money

go back into the NHS. And they voted for Brexit

on the basis of a lie. I think what we are forgetting

is that David Cameron proved beyond any doubt,

it's the EU who won't negotiate. He came back saying

he'd got a good deal. I'll take a couple more points

and I want to move on. I come to you waving at me,

not because you are waving but because you have

had your hand up. At the end of the day,

Europe are trying to make an example out of Britain to try to prevent

other member states doing exactly what we've done

and having their own Brexits. And where was the person

with the tattoos? Until a professional outside body

adds up both assets and liabilities, who can have any idea

what the bill can be? The interesting quote of the week

was from Juncker when he said that The reason why he is saying

that is because they are terrified, because if Brexit is a success

and we are a beacon of light for the rest of the European Union,

then France will go next, then Sweden will go,

then Denmark will go and the whole And as for going into these

negotiations, we can be confident. We have a huge trading deficit

with the European Union. In many ways, they need us

more than we need them. The six million jobs

on the continent which are Now, this might be a devious

organisation, it might be a bullying organisation,

but it isn't a stupid organisation. And I think people like David can go

into these negotiations confident that we can get a really good deal

for the British people. Just to say before I do,

next week we're going to be in Edinburgh and the week

after that we are in Norwich. The details of how to apply

are on the screen and I will Now here is a topic we have had

a number of questions on. Why is the media refusing to portray

Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light? In case you missed it,

why is the media refusing to portray Well, I'm afraid they are reflecting

a view not just of the media but of three quarters

of the Labour Party who passed a vote of no

confidence in him last year. My own opposite number,

Keir Starmer, who is the shadow Brexit secretary, resigned last year

and the words he gave were because he didn't think that

Jeremy Corbyn could provide the leadership to negotiate

a decent deal on Brexit. So I'm afraid what they are

reflecting is a commonly held view. Now, look, I actually

like Jeremy Corbyn. I took him to Washington with me

when we got the release of the last British resident in Guantanamo Bay,

and he was hopeful on that. But I'm afraid, in terms

of actually leading a country, in terms of delivering

on a government, in terms of making decisions, Brexit alone,

six positions in nine months, he simply hasn't proved

able to do the job. Laura, what's your

complaint about the media? Nobody is listening to his policies

and all the Conservatives seem to be doing is, like, portraying him

in a negative light. They're not doing their own thing,

they're just abusing him. And is that the papers, radio,

television, everything? I'm in business and my role is not

to take political sides. I see my role as working

with whichever political party to help create a strong

British economy. I think Jeremy Corbyn is clearly

a man of strong conviction. I think in terms of business,

what I would like to see is a little bit less of the "Business is nasty

and you don't all pay your taxes". Of course, we know there

are incidents of that but the truth is that business

is a huge value creator. We pay, as business,

when you take our corporation tax, National Insurance, all those tax,

three quarters of all the taxes raised by the country

is generated through business. We are a very important

engine of the economy, and I would like to see a little bit

more partnership of how we can work together

and achieve economic growth. Laura says that the media

are being unfair to Jeremy Corbyn, You know, I think the media

will just pick up anything At the end of the day,

I think our audience here today and the British population

is intelligent to see through that and to make their decision based

on the policies and based on the manifestos, and not what

you're reading in the Daily Mail. APPLAUSE.

OK. Leanne Wood? I think that the right and the far

right on the march, not just here in the UK, but in other parts of the EU

as well and in America, I think the media are reflecting that and anyone

who's not on the right or the far right seems to be getting it. My

colleague Nicola Sturgeon is getting a hard time as well. She's been

described as one of the most difficult women in politics and I

think part of that is around the way the media portray her. I would like

to see a more balanced media, more balanced ideas. I think social media

can help with some of that because it's not going through a filter. But

I don't think the leader of the Labour Party is helping himself by

refusing to participate in the electoral TV debates if the Prime

Minister doesn't turn up. I think they should be both empty chaired if

they don't show, but what they are doing by refusing to turn up is

turning down that platform to put across your policy ideas, reducing

the range of opinion available to people. There are large numbers of

people who watch those television debates that might not access

politics in any other way. I think it's important for democracy that

they go ahead with the full range of opinion that's available.

APPLAUSE. The woman there? I would like to

say, I voted in the last general election, I'm voting in this general

election and I would like to say, Jeremy Corbyn really turned my head

to politics. He speaks about what is real and I don't think it's a case

of the press being against him, I think it's just the case that

no-one's reporting what Labour's actually standing for, people are

voting for personalities and lies, rather than...

APPLAUSE. Rebecca Long-Bailey, the question,

is the media refusing to portray Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light.

You may want to pick up on what Leanne said, he's not doing himself

much of a service by refusing to debate with other party leaders?

I'll be honest, it's been a struck until the media since Jeremy was

elected leader. The media have focussed on divisions and people

arguing with people within the party rather than reporting on our

policies. We have a fight on our hands in this election, we are

fighting for every single vote. While Theresa May is refusing to do

TV debates and having stage-managed events, Jeremy is travelling the

country showing how he'll represent Britain. This election is a choice,

it's about having a Britain for the many, which is what the Labour Party

believes in, where wealth and prosperity is shared, or it's a Tory

Britain that only looks after a privileged few. And to come back to

the point about business, it breaks my heart to hear you say that

because we have been fighting to get our business message out there. We

were at the front of the queue when it came to business rates, we were

talking about how businesses were really being pushed to the edge of a

cliff. We asked for manufacturing industries and other industries to

be given support in the exemption of plant and machinery to grow their

businesses because we think that Government and business in

collaboration can deliver the future Britain needs, it will deliver the

high-paid, high-skilled economy that these people need.

APPLAUSE. Sorry, you didn't answer why he

won't debate, even though Theresa May isn't there in the studio, why

won't he debate with the others to get his ideas across? I think Jeremy

having Theresa May taken the decision that he's taken he felt

that it was necessary to go out and meet the people and develop his

policies and discuss them with the general public. It's not one or the

other, I'll be doing both. I'll be meeting the people and being

involved in television debates. We are the opposition, we are the only

chance of getting rid of the Tory party and Jeremy felt in order to

get a fair hearing he needed to have a debate with Theresa May so if she

comes to the debates a and I think she should because the British

public need to hear what she has to say and she should be held to

account, then Jeremy will be there as well. Politicians need to stop

the mud-slinging. They quote this week mutton headed old mud lump, it

does nobody any favour, it grabs headlines. It sets bad examples to

children, we tell them not the bully and yet you're bullying each other

in. The midst of all this we are losing the debates because the press

are picking up on the mud slinging backwards and forwards, there's

nothing reported about the policies and we need to hear the policies in

adult grown-up debate. The TV debates are important. Yes, you on

the gangway? Without debate, there can't be any scrutiny. Exactly.

Theresa May's refused to debate Jeremy Corbyn. Silly sound bites are

not match against honesty and integrity.

APPLAUSE. That's why Mrs May will not debate

with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. Because she does not have any policies. But

she will on the other hand, as far as we know, at this stage, and it's

not certain, debate with a Question Time audience. So she will argue her

case with you and you and you and you. Why won't she debate Corbyn

then? OK, I don't know the answer to that one. You, Sir, in the middle? I

think my concern and I think a lot of people in the country would like

to see Jeremy Corbyn because he will answer a question. All I've seen of

Theresa May is dodge, Don, dodge, she hasn't answered anything

directly. The BBC interview the other day, why can't we have

politicians that will give us a direct answer like Jeremy Corbyn?

APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes. Do you know, I sort of

feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn, I have to say. I think he's an honourable,

principled man, I disagree with his principles. And the problem he's got

is that, although the press or the media are plunging the knife in his

chest, his own party are plunging the knife in his back all the time

so he goes on TV talking about Trident then he's being contradicted

an hour later boy they are members of his Shadow Cabinet.

on the manifestos, and not what you're reading in the Daily Mail.

You've got the Blairites who want a bit of Corbyn.

You've got Corbyn himself who is in effect a throwback to a bygone era.

But at least with Corbyn you've got a clear choice in this election,

because unfortunately what happened with politics during the Blairite

era is that everyone rushed to the Centre.

I mean, there's a clear choice with Jeremy Corbyn as leader

You could give me ten Jeremy Corbyns over any Tony Blair, any day.

The use of food banks has increased under this Tory government.

Should we hang our heads in shame that as one of the richest

countries in the world, people are queueing for food?

Juergen, would you like to start on that?

The answer is that it's a real tragic situation, isn't it,

that we've not been able to raise living standards, and we have

and we have more in-work poverty than we have had before.

However, we need to find a solution to that.

And this is definitely an issue where, you know,

we need to really raise above party politics, and there is a really

And that is that we have, for decades, actually not focused

on what is it that generates wealth in this country.

And one of the key things that generates wealth is manufacturing.

It's high-technology industries, which export,

which create high-value jobs, which create productivity.

And through those mechanisms, we can actually raise wages

And we have not had a strategic approach for that,

which has to be long-term, so it has to be across governments,

And we need a much, much stronger focus on that,

and only through that can we start raising living standards again.

Wendy Doherty, David Davis, put it very vividly.

Shouldn't we hang our heads in shame that in one of the richest

countries in the world, people are queueing for free food?

And nobody is comfortable with the idea of using food banks.

Let me pick up on Juergen's point, because he has a point,

that in the Western world we have to think much harder, be more agile

about encouraging business, encouraging wealth creation.

And that's what Theresa May, actually one of the unique things

about her, in terms of leader of the Tory party, is she believes

She believes in creating the foci for development,

the innovation, the research, apprenticeships, all of these

things central to her approach to Conservatism.

You can't do it without wealth creation.

At the other end, the thing that brings people out of poverty is not,

It's getting up to do a job that brings self-respect, brings money.

And we've got 2.8 million more people in work today than we had

when we came into power, the highest level of employment ever

in our country and the lowest level of unemployment for over a decade.

When the Prime Minister appeared on Andrew Marr's programme,

he quoted to her the Royal College of Nursing saying that nurses

were even turning to food banks, employed nurses were turning

And her reply was, there are many complex reasons.

Presumably people go to food banks because they are hungry.

People have short-term cash issues, all sorts of things.

The complexity of individual people's lives.

But that doesn't mean it's something you want to see.

The main reason that people are going to food banks

is because there are delays with paying benefits and there have

been changes to social security with the pernicious Tory welfare

reforms which have cut money to people with disabilities.

They've cut money to the children whose parents have been bereaved.

They've cut money to any third, fourth or fifth child in a family,

unless the mother can prove that she was raped when that

And if we give the Tories a bigger mandate in this election,

There's been a lot of conversation about industry being the main way

of us avoiding the use of food banks.

However, what happens when those people using the food banks

are your public sector workers, where industry isn't

We seem to have stopped caring firstly about those

that need caring for, and secondly for the people that

And we seem to have no answer to that currently.

I have not visited a food bank before but I have

And the vast majority of them that do go for free food smoke,

Some people use food banks who are in work.

Last night I travelled through Wigan town centre to Hindley and I saw ten

people sitting in doorways, obviously not watching Sky.

The benefit system as we refer to it is the main reason people

are falling out of society and living on the streets.

There's been an exponential increase in homelessness, and it's

Well I'm telling you, it's a purposely designed

policy of creating more dismay and discomfort.

And this man is not an unintelligent man, and he knows what's going on.

The party that introduced the living wage, which is actually

raising people's wages, the party that is creating a welfare

system that's trying to give people an to get back to work.

-- trying to give people an incentive to get back to work.

Of course there's a homeless problem.

Well, and we've been building more houses

to help with that, too, 313,000 houses in

Well, look, we are in Wigan tonight and I'm sure many of the audience

members have read the famous book the Road to Wigan Pier

by George Orwell where in the 1930s he travelled across the country

to see how people, often in work, were living in destitution.

There's a group of people recreating his footsteps.

Recently they visited a Staffordshire food bank.

And in that food bank they met a man who walked seven

He was on a zero-hours contract, often turned away and had to walk

He was 50 and he'd spent 15 years fighting for Britain

Now, is this the kind of Britain he deserves,

where he is forced to rely on charity?

I think it's absolutely shameful that we have food

banks on our streets, that we aren't building an economy

that will keep people sustained, that we've got a government that

hands out tax breaks to a wealthy elite whilst cutting the benefits

And I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made

about investing in business and industry to create

those high-paid, high skilled jobs of the future,

but unfortunately this government isn't delivering that.

We're one of the lowest countries in the OECD in terms of investment

in industry and innovation at 1.7% of GDP.

Our competitors around the world are on 3%.

So to deliver the economy that this country deserves and to share

the wealth equally around the regions and nations,

we need to elect a Labour government so that we can invest

Quite clearly there is a problem with homelessness in this country.

There's lots of issues surrounding why people end up homeless,

mental health issues, there can be issues

Obviously people being put out of work as well.

Clearly, there isn't enough houses in Britain.

The problem that we've got is that we've had a massive population boom,

and that does go back to the issue of how many people

But equally, we haven't built enough houses over the years.

We need a real council house building programme.

And we're sitting here in Wigan tonight.

This is part of my constituency, I am an MEP for the north-west.

And I just feel as if we've been left behind.

Because everything in this country, all of the money, everything

What we want to see is not only real devolved power

The Tories had this Northern powerhouse,

I'll give you an example just before I finish.

In London they are spending ?5,000 per head on infrastructure.

In the north-east of England it's about ?400.

We need to get the money out of London and out of places

-- we need to get it out to places like the north-west of England.

One point from the woman in the third row and then we'll go

The issue of food banks, you say it's about job creation,

Surely it's going to get worse because with artificial

intelligence, jobs in the service sector are going to be impacted.

Anything that is repeatable, a robot can do it.

Well, you raise a very good point here, and this is exactly why

we need a much stronger focus on investing and innovation and R

Because actually my calculation is that as long as we invest very

well, we can actually create more jobs than we displace

through the implementation of these technologies.

But we have to, with that, create the new industries.

We have to create instead of having the manufacturing jobs.

It will be jobs who are writing software, creating

We have to create new jobs in technologies like

Here in Wigan there some companies creating brand-new textiles

And more of that can create more jobs, highly paid jobs,

more tax income, which will pay for more welfare,

I said earlier on when it was briefly

mentioned by one or two of you that we would come

Rebecca Crabtree, with a rather different take on the usual

As a portrayed saviour of the NHS, how does the Labour Party plan

to combat an NHS culture of wastage, inefficiency and poor

It's a question that everybody around

Paul Nuttall, what do you say to that?

While you have a chance to think, Paul!

Well, the question is, obviously behind Rebecca's question

is that the NHS has a culture of wastage, inefficiency

It's no good just putting money into it.

Well, you have to start by putting money into it. People are getting

older, the demands on the health service are greater. More high-tech

medicine has to be delivered, which is expensive. So you do have to put

money in and that starts with the economy. If you don't deliver the

money, do not have enough created in the economy, you can't do it. We put

in 10 billion so far. We are talking about your 350 million a week, at 10

billion is more than the Labour Party promised that the last

election. Out of that, to be fair, talking about inefficiency, the

health service is actually delivering, according to independent

reviews, better major care, better outcomes than three years ago, five

years ago, ten years ago. So we should be fair, it is doing a good

job, it is still a world leader in many respects. Beyond that, we have

to keep innovating. We have a proposal, sustainability and

transformation partnerships, which will actually improve delivery on

the ground. Labour are opposing it, even though they supported it six

months ago. But that sort of reform will deliver better outcomes again.

They are improving but they will improve even further. Rebecca, come

back to your question. You are missing the point that just putting

money into something is not the solution. Much of the money is

wasted because we have not got enough nurses, midwives, and the

money is being wasted on agency staff, who get paid approximately

three times the wage. APPLAUSE

And that is what I mean about inefficiency in the NHS.

It is not run like a business. Rebecca Long Bailey, you say you are

putting money into the NHS but it is not run like a business and the

money will be wasted, Rebecca says. There has been a narrative put out

about the NHS for some time in terms of inefficiency and wastage. There

can always be changes made to make systems more efficient, but it seems

it has come out of Jeremy Hunt's playbook. Remember, he co-authored a

book calling for the privatisation of the NHS, so we know where the

rhetoric is coming from and what is. The picture of the child lying on

two plastic chairs in an A corridor haunts me and many in the

audience, I'm sure, because that is the extent of the NHS crisis. We

have over 1 million vulnerable people who cannot look after

themselves because of cuts to social care. The crisis was of this

government was Mac making. They were setting it up for privatisation.

They orchestrated a top-down reorganisation which cost ?3 billion

and did not have a positive outcome. Can you point to any privatisation?

They cut ?600 million from mental health and 4.6 billion from social

care. They are driving it into the sea. Can you point to any? The rate

of use of non-NHS health care was much higher, the growth rate was

much higher under Tony Blair's Labour than it has been under the

Conservative coalition governments. So how can you point to this as

supposedly some sort of privatisation initiative? There no

facts behind your argument. I would read Jeremy Hunt's book if you have

not looked at it. It is a race to was an American -based insurance

system that is privatised. And we haven't got it. The lady quite

properly raised the issue of the demand on the health service. 11,000

more doctors, over 12,000 more nurses and midwives since we have

been empowered. That is not privatisation, that is public money

put in for public service, delivering better outcomes for

people suffering from dreadful diseases. Juergen Maier. I watch

this programme pretty much every week and it seems we have the same

debate every week. And I don't think we are going to resolve it by saying

we need to throw many more billions into the service, which is exactly

the point that you are asking. I think there is a fundamental issue

here, and when I compare the National health system here too that

I have experienced in Germany and Austria, a fundamental difference is

that we just do not put the focus on preventative health. And what that

means is that our hospitals, our health service is just overloaded,

so they don't have any time to actually sort out their

efficiencies, which is your point. I think there is a solution, and the

solution is potentially happening right here in Greater Manchester.

This will be one of the first evolved city regions where there

will be the funding for both social care and the National health has --

and the national health system will be under one responsible T. That is

the first time there will be an incentive in the system to make sure

that we do more preventative medicine, to make sure that people

do not end up in hospital and do not end up with the actual social care,

after-care type of issues. I think that is the way we have to go to get

more efficiency. The NHS is its workers. That is what this

government is not putting money into. 1% pay rise again this year.

That is for the last seven years, 1%, which is devaluing the wages of

nurses, encouraging people to go on banks and to go to agencies, to

leave the country. There is a shortage of doctors and nurses but

you will not give us a pay rise. APPLAUSE

We only have a couple of minutes left.

The first thing you could do is to merge social care and health care.

In January there were 1 million people lying in hospital beds who

could not leave because they had nowhere else to go. It's insane. The

problem we have is that when Labour came to power in 1997 we were

spending 33,000,000,000-a-year on the NHS, and when they left we were

spending 99 billion. The problem is that they stuffed the NHS with pen

pushers, bureaucrats and managers, OK.

APPLAUSE I have to stop you, Paul.

He wants to privatise the NHS. He has said in the past that he wants

to privatise the NHS. Our NHS needs defending. It is a risk of

privatisation and has been underfunded. I agree that there is

waste in terms of agency staff and locums, and we need investment in

staff. Isn't it interesting that those on the top of the pay grade

get decent paying creases, while those at the bottom are those who

have had the pay freeze? APPLAUSE

Very quickly, because we have 30 seconds left.

A lot of the problem is streamlining they are trying to do with the NHS.

That little boy might have been waiting for a bed in another

district general because there was no bed in his hospital -- his

hospital that he was in A for, because they closed the beds and

moved it to a different one and were waiting for an anvil him. This is

the streamlining causing a backlog of patients in A At the back. The

main issue that we have and we are bypassing is the amount of people

that are in this country. We are a very tiny country with too many

people, and the funding with the NHS does not recognise that. As Paul has

just noted, it was Labour and Tony Blair who opened our borders and

that rose dramatically, so how are we going to do that? You are more

likely to have an immigrant treating you. People that want to work in

that sector. We have a shortage of doctors. We need more immigrants.

The don't want to work there because there is too much pressure. As has

been said, we always debate this on Question Time and we have run out of

time before we have got through everyone with their hand up.

Apologies, but our time is up. We will be in Edinburgh next week and

Norwich the week after, so come and join us there. Edinburgh and

Norwich. On the screen is the website and the number to apply. If

you are listening on five live on medium wave, if you are able to get

it, which I never can, the debate carries on until the early hours of

the morning and it is very exciting and vivid when you catch it. My

thanks to our panel and to all of you who came to Wigan to take part.

Until next Thursday, good night.