04/05/2017 Question Time


04/05/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Wigan. On the panel are David Davis, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Paul Nuttall, Leanne Wood and the CEO of Siemens UK Juergen Maier.


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Transcript


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Welcome to Question Time and tonight, we are in Wigan.

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On our panel here, the man in charge of Brexit, the Secretary of State

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for Exiting the EU, the Conservative David Davis. Labour's Shadow

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Business Secretary, Rebecca Long-Bailey. The leader of Ukip,

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Paul Nuttall. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the boss of

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Siemens UK, Juergen Maier. Thank you very much. Just before we

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start, remember you can join in these debates. Twitter, our hashtag

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is bbcqt. On Facebook search for BBC Question Time. Press the red button

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and see what others are saying. Mark Buckley please, our first question

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comes from you. Considering the recent rhetoric coming from Europe,

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do we need a bloody difficult woman to negotiate Brexit?

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APPLAUSE. Well, before we come to the

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politicians, Juergen Maier, do we need a bloody difficult woman to

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negotiate Brexit? Well what I think we need above all is, we need a

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little bit more calm and we need a little bit more rational debate.

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Now, that doesn't mean that it can't get difficult and, you know, clearly

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there are going to be difficult players on both sides. But in the

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end, what is going to get us through these very important and very

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difficult negotiations is if both sides just spend more time

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understanding each other's position and that also means that we in the

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UK have to spend much, much more time understanding where is the EU

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coming from on this, we have to understand that on our side and when

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we do that, we've got a chance of getting a good deal and we damn well

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need to get a good deal. APPLAUSE.

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So, as an outsider to this, was the Prime Minister right to say on the

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steps to the BBC, that the next person to find out she's a bloody

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difficult woman would be Jean-Claude Juncker? Was that a sensible thing

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to say, or was that provocative in the way you don't want to see the

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negotiations conducted? Well, the way that I see it is, we are in an

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election, you know, and we've had a week where emotions just ran a

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little bit high. I guess it is to be expected at this point that you get

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a bit of positioning. That's what you get in tough negotiations. But

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I'm pretty confident that when we, after the elections, when we get

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into the real debate, I think it will be what's right for the

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country, not what's right for your own political party and we'll get

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some calm and proper debate, I hope. Rebecca Long-Bailey? Well, look, I

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think the displays that we've seen over the last 48-hours have been

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very worrying, suggesting quite an unstable approach taken by the Prime

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Minister. What's even more worrying is that she was using the EU as an

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electioneering tool, one of the biggest decisions this country's had

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to make. And even more worrying than that, were the comments we'd heard

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had been made by Juncker. He said that at the recent meeting she

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wasn't fully briefed. Apparently Angela Merkel said she lived in

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another galaxy in terms of the things she was putting forward. But

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ultimately, what we need to see now is a Government that puts

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collaboration and patriotism at the part of our Brexit negotiations so

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that they get a deal for the many, not the few, and turn us into a tax

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haven which is the threats we have had from Philip Hammond. We need

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patriotism in terms of British industry. We want the see the

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Government giving industry the tools it needs to succeed. For example, we

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asked the Government to provide support for reshoring UK supply

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chains to make sure manufacturer was brought back to this country and

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brought down costs for this country. The Government seems intent on

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offering bespoke deals to one or two businesses and leaving the rest to

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rot. That's not an industrial strategy. We asked them to plug the

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skills gap to make sure businesses had the skills and we had a high

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skilled workforce ready to go. They cut the adult skills budget by ?1.

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36 billion. Before we get into too much detail, let us deal with the we

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of attitude and the Prime Minister said she's a bloody difficult woman,

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quoting what Ken Clarke said about her. Would Jeremy Corbyn be a bloody

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difficult man negotiating Brexit? I think you need to have a mixture of

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being very robust and pursuing the needs your country has, alongside an

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air of winning friends and influencing people, shall I say and

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Theresa May certainly hasn't displayed the charisma we need to

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negotiate our way through these talks. OK.

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APPLAUSE. David Davis? Well, let's go back to

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the start of this. There was the dinner. I was at the dinner. I won't

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tell you much about it because it was supposedly private. What came

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out afterwards was a leak. It was a misleading briefing to position the

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commission in one position and trying to undermine the position of

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the British Government. And the response to that by the Government,

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by the Prime Minister was, we simply said we don't recognise this. That

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was all. It was very polite. And for 48-hours we stuck to that. Why? We

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want to keep this stable, calm and sensible, like Rebecca said, so we

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get the outcome for both sides. That's been our stance all the way

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through. Then we had further briefings, we are going to have to

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pay ?100 billion, the Prime Minister won't be able to negotiate. The line

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was then crossed. What was happening was that the Commission was trying

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to bully the British people and the British people will not be bullied

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and the Government will not allow them to be so she made the point she

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made and she was right to do so. Now, at the end of this, what we are

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aiming for is a very good deal. A very good deal for the British

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people. Based on what they voted on in the referendum, taking back

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control of our laws, borders and money, and deliver ago comprehensive

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Free Trade Agreement protecting all business and to give us the security

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we need that we have currently. So for all those reasons we are very

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lucky we have got a bloody difficult woman and I think we are very

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good... APPLAUSE.

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A lot of hands up. Let me hear from one or two members of the audience?

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You, there? I think it's a bit rush Rebecca, you are sat there saying

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Theresa May wasn't fully briefed after Labour's performance on

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reeling out some of her policies this week.

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OK. And you on the right? It just seems to me she said that phrase as

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a device in the general election to make sure all the people that want

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Brexit and want a hard Brexit vote for her. She's not said that device

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to actually help us negotiate with the EU. That's right...

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APPLAUSE. You, Sir, at the back? To me, the

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statement she came out with shows a lack of negotiating skills. I

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thought negotiation was people sitting around a table trying to

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achieve the best outcome for all parties. She's adopting Donald

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Trump's tactics and we know what he does to negotiators, he drops a big

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bomb on somebody. We don't want that. It won't work, that.

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What about the EU Commission President saying Brexit can't be a

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success and she's living in another galaxy, that's aggressive too? Well,

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she is. Oh, she is? For many other reasons. But she doesn't actually

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say anything of substance, she comes out with sound bites all of the

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time. It's globals. It was said... You, Sir? Can Theresa May deliver on

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Brexit because she's never delivered on a promise in her life, as far as

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I can see. APPLAUSE.

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David Davis, a brief answer from you then the other members of the panel

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I haven't spoken to. Never deliver on a promise. She was Home Secretary

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in over six years in which crime came down by 30%. That's pretty good

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delivering. Did it go down throughout Europe... Hang on. The

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point about negotiating. The man was saying up there, you have to accept

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in this process that there'll be difficult times. I've said a dozen

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times in the House of Commons, there'll be times in this when it

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will get tough and they'll try to test out our patience and

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willingness to play the game. The real skill in the negotiations is

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finding the area where both sides benefit. What Juergen does every day

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in his business, where both sides benefit. That's what we've done.

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We've said we want the European Union to succeed. We've said we'll

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be a good European citizen even though we are not in the European

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Union. We have said we want a free trade deal to help everybody, not

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just the one. That's what a good negotiator does and that's what we

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are going to deliver on. Leanne Wood?

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I think this was more to do with the election than to do with the EU

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negotiations and I think it's irresponsible to use something like

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this as big as this and important as this as an election issue.

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APPLAUSE. Of course she said they were trying

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to interfere in the British election. Do you think that? I don't

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accept that if I'm honest. I think that she's trying to approach this

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with quite an aggressive attitude, it's the wrong attitude, it's not

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the attitude that's going to get the best deal. She needs to be much more

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open-minded and I think this is quite an English nationalist

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approach and Rebecca talked earlier about the need for patriotism. It's

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quite clear that Theresa May is speaking on behalf of England.

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That's clear to me. That's why she's 10% ahead in Wales then, the leading

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party in Wales is now the Conservative Party? If you are

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referring to a poll that Kim out recently, let's wait and see the

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next poll because there are big questions as to the voracity of

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that. Let's wait to see the result - even better. Yes, the local

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elections. If we are talking about patriotism, we have Theresa May

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speaking on behalf of nationalism, the SNPs speak on behalf of

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Scotland. What Wales needs now is someone to speak on behalf of Wales.

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We've been ignored and neglected as a country through all of this

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process and it's vital now that in this election Wales sends a large

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team of Plaid Cymru MPs to Westminster to defend the Welsh

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national interest because at the moment our needs are getting

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completely ignored in all of this. The woman in blue? People say she's

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a difficult woman and it's a smoke screen her bringing in more

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austerity. If she wins the general election there'll be more cuts and

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austerity. I agree... And privatisation as well. Paul Nuttall?

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Remember the question Mark asked - do we need a bloody difficult woman

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to negotiate Brexit? Well, on Theresa May's record, I would say

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that she's a failure actually. You look at her record as Home

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Secretary. This was the Home Secretary who said that she would

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get the numbers of people coming to this country down to the tens of

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thousands. Last year it was a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne. So

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her record isn't that great. What we do need is someone who will go into

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these negotiations and actually be prepared to walk away, walk away if

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we don't get the deal we want. APPLAUSE.

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Because frankly, no deal is better than a bad deal. You are quoting her

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aren't you? That's what she said? No. The difference is, I mean it. I

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don't think she does. The EU is showing its true colours here.

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Within the space of 48-hours, our divorce bill went from ?50 billion

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to ?100 billion. OK. Now, they're on dodgy legal ground with this anyway

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but we shouldn't be paying the divorce bill into an organisation

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whereby we have given it in membership fees alone ?183 billion

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since 1973. We've got ?9 billion tied up in the European Investment

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Bank, we I don't know some of the EU's real estate. They have ?156

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billion worth of real estate in Europe. We shouldn't be paying a

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divorce bill to this organisation. Real who we are, Great Britain, the

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seventh largest economy in the world and the Prime Minister should go

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into these negotiations confident that she can get the best deal

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possible. APPLAUSE.

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Let's stick with this but maybe we'll come back to what went on at

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Number Ten as David Davis described it. Robert Langley, your question,

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please? How much is too much, ?50 billion, ?60 billion or ?100

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billion? David, I'm not going to do

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the negotiation here. The aim of this exercise, remember,

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is to get a successful outcome, not just to talk

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about the successful outcome. And we are determined

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to get the successful But the point he raised

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is actually a very good one, that in the course of this exercise,

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which Leanne thought was perfectly reasonable behaviour

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by the European Union, they upped the ante from 50 to 100

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with no reason whatsoever, except as an intimidation play

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in a negotiation. So we're not going to get

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into debating that. We're going to say we want

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talk about free trade, because that's beneficial

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to both sides. The history of the European Union

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is trying to make other countries pay for the privilege of trading

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with them, when free trade Remember, they sell 290 billion

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to us, we sell 230 billion to them. So Paul's right, we have a strong

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hand, that's where we stand. I find it laughable

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that the Conservatives are commenting on the Brexit

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campaign and commenting on how much we have to pay

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to exit the European Union, when they were the ones who actually

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said, "This is how much money we're going to give back to the NHS

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as a result of that". Or is it just this that

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you are complaining about? We may come to the NHS later

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on in the programme. Well, look, I think we're living

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in cloud cuckoo land if we think we're going to get away

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without paying anything at all. I don't know what the exact figure's

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going to be but this highlights the importance of having a skilful

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negotiator on our side in the form of a Prime Minister, somebody that

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can negotiate obligations down. I'd highlight the importance

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of making sure that we adhere to our obligations, because let's

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remember, we're going to be making trade deals

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across the world and we have to look like a partner that keeps

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up our side of the bargain, otherwise nobody will want to sign

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any free trade agreements with us. But I also want to go back

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to a point David made And he talked about policing

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and how crime has fallen. In the last year, violence against

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the person has increased by 19%. Let's look at some of

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the other obligations... Hang on, that's not

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the question I asked you, which is what is Labour's position

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on the 50, 60 or 100 billion? Because you can talk

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about Theresa May until the cows come home, but people want to know

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what Labour thinks, too. We need to make sure

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we are in a strong position to negotiate, and we need to make

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sure we win friends and influence Of course, but do you have any idea

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of the kind of figure that Well, as I say, it's all part

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of the negotiations. Well, David, is 100

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billion acceptable? What figure have you said that

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you're going to set as a benchmark? You want me to give

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a minimum amount here. That's a very good

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tactic in negotiations, Which, I'm afraid,

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is a demonstration. Labour have had six different

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positions on this in the course It's a decision not just

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on what is said publicly, it's Do you trust Theresa May to do

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this, or do you trust And that's a decision

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the British people will make. You poured scorn on the upping

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from 50 to 100 billion. You would treat 100 billion

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as beyond the pale? That's all I want to know,

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so you are putting down a benchmark. I think we're in danger of having

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the wrong conversation here. At the end of the day,

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I think there is going We don't know what

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that is going to be. David Davis, you've said yourself

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there are some liabilities There are some support programmes

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that the EU has made So, therefore, we have to pay

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for that for a period of time. But what I would like to hear much

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more about is what is the vision Because once we have

:18:37.:18:42.

decided what that vision is, it might just make the fact

:18:43.:18:55.

that we have to make some contribution a little

:18:56.:18:58.

bit more palatable. For example, we definitely do want

:18:59.:19:01.

to continue to have a relationship We probably want to have

:19:02.:19:04.

a relationship about climate change. We probably want to continue

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to participate in some I am not here arguing in any way

:19:11.:19:13.

that we want to stay part of the single market,

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but there are certain areas. So let's have a vision for those,

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describe them, and then we can get on to a conversation

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of how much we really owe. Juergen is exactly right

:19:25.:19:27.

and that is something that The vision here is a global Britain

:19:28.:19:38.

that trades with the whole world. Remember, nearly 60% of our trade

:19:39.:19:43.

now is with other parts of the world, most of which we don't

:19:44.:19:46.

have a free-trade agreement with. So in the next few years we will be

:19:47.:19:49.

developing the basis of free trade agreements with the fastest-growing

:19:50.:19:52.

parts of the world, the Indian The areas where actually Wales

:19:53.:19:55.

is selling most at the moment. But don't forget, 44% of our trade

:19:56.:20:04.

is still with the European Union, vitally important for British

:20:05.:20:07.

businesses, and we need to find And that's the point

:20:08.:20:09.

about the comprehensive free trade agreement,

:20:10.:20:14.

it's designed to protect what we have whilst freeing us up

:20:15.:20:16.

to actually develop markets We have the English language,

:20:17.:20:18.

the culture, the Commonwealth, So it's a real vision for a great

:20:19.:20:25.

future for this country The danger is that it will be

:20:26.:20:30.

like TTIP, the trade deal with America that was rejected,

:20:31.:20:45.

which risked opening up And the Tories have failed

:20:46.:20:48.

to guarantee not opening up I want to go to the audience,

:20:49.:20:51.

but David Davis, you began talking a bit about the dinner party

:20:52.:21:03.

at Number Ten. It was reported that the President

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of the EU Commission said, "Brexit cannot be a success",

:21:06.:21:08.

and that Theresa May It doesn't sound very promising

:21:09.:21:10.

at the start of negotiations. I'm not going to talk about

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the dinner party, as you call it. It was very convivial,

:21:20.:21:22.

as you could watch when they came out, everyone was joking

:21:23.:21:29.

and laughing together. So a lot of this briefing

:21:30.:21:31.

has been nonsense. But the point you made

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about his comment about it cannot be a success, early on in this process,

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immediately after the referendum, there was talk about

:21:37.:21:39.

punishing Britain. Then they realised that was perhaps

:21:40.:21:42.

not particularly acceptable to British people and they talked

:21:43.:21:48.

instead about Britain cannot be allowed to do better

:21:49.:21:51.

outside than inside. Frankly, that's not

:21:52.:21:53.

for them to decide. How we do outside is down to us,

:21:54.:21:55.

as an independent nation standing Don't you want to try and have

:21:56.:21:58.

a good relationship with the EU? With all these billions

:21:59.:22:02.

being mentioned, with the French election and the possible

:22:03.:22:13.

Marine Le Pen getting in, if there's a referendum

:22:14.:22:18.

and they come out and they do a Frexit, what I'm wondering is,

:22:19.:22:24.

if it's a domino effect, is it the last man standing gets

:22:25.:22:28.

all the money? I'm a little tired of

:22:29.:22:32.

listening to a bad Brexit Why don't we just let these

:22:33.:22:47.

guys get on with it. All we hear is rhetoric

:22:48.:22:53.

in the newspaper, on the television. In a month's time we are going

:22:54.:22:57.

to have a confirmation Let them get on with it

:22:58.:23:03.

and we'll see where it takes Not stop talking about it,

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but hard and soft, the rhetoric isn't doing

:23:08.:23:12.

us any good. I think the fact that the EU

:23:13.:23:14.

is asking for any money for Britain undertaking a democratic exercise

:23:15.:23:22.

is frankly ridiculous, and it shows that we're dealing

:23:23.:23:23.

with bloody difficult men. That was the question

:23:24.:23:30.

that Robert asked. That's like asking in a divorce

:23:31.:23:36.

settlement before you go to court, does one partner get half the house,

:23:37.:23:41.

a quarter of the house, I mean, the point of negotiation

:23:42.:23:44.

is to be like adults, to sit around a table and to try

:23:45.:23:49.

and sort things out And going into these

:23:50.:23:52.

negotiations with the attitude the Prime Minister has got,

:23:53.:23:59.

all superior, we are better than them over there in Europe,

:24:00.:24:02.

is the wrong way to go about it. The only people that will end

:24:03.:24:06.

up with all the money in all of this are the lawyers,

:24:07.:24:08.

like they do in a real divorce. We don't know how much that will be

:24:09.:24:12.

yet, but we do know that that promise of ?350 million

:24:13.:24:26.

that was on that bus, that they said would go

:24:27.:24:28.

to the NHS every week, that is the figure that they rowed

:24:29.:24:32.

back on straight away. And many people that I know

:24:33.:24:35.

in the constituency I represent back in Wales are desperate to see money

:24:36.:24:38.

go back into the NHS. And they voted for Brexit

:24:39.:24:42.

on the basis of a lie. I think what we are forgetting

:24:43.:24:47.

is that David Cameron proved beyond any doubt,

:24:48.:24:56.

it's the EU who won't negotiate. He came back saying

:24:57.:24:59.

he'd got a good deal. I'll take a couple more points

:25:00.:25:03.

and I want to move on. I come to you waving at me,

:25:04.:25:15.

not because you are waving but because you have

:25:16.:25:19.

had your hand up. At the end of the day,

:25:20.:25:21.

Europe are trying to make an example out of Britain to try to prevent

:25:22.:25:24.

other member states doing exactly what we've done

:25:25.:25:27.

and having their own Brexits. And where was the person

:25:28.:25:29.

with the tattoos? Until a professional outside body

:25:30.:25:39.

adds up both assets and liabilities, who can have any idea

:25:40.:25:42.

what the bill can be? The interesting quote of the week

:25:43.:25:45.

was from Juncker when he said that The reason why he is saying

:25:46.:25:51.

that is because they are terrified, because if Brexit is a success

:25:52.:25:56.

and we are a beacon of light for the rest of the European Union,

:25:57.:25:59.

then France will go next, then Sweden will go,

:26:00.:26:02.

then Denmark will go and the whole And as for going into these

:26:03.:26:05.

negotiations, we can be confident. We have a huge trading deficit

:26:06.:26:09.

with the European Union. In many ways, they need us

:26:10.:26:11.

more than we need them. The six million jobs

:26:12.:26:15.

on the continent which are Now, this might be a devious

:26:16.:26:17.

organisation, it might be a bullying organisation,

:26:18.:26:22.

but it isn't a stupid organisation. And I think people like David can go

:26:23.:26:25.

into these negotiations confident that we can get a really good deal

:26:26.:26:27.

for the British people. Just to say before I do,

:26:28.:26:30.

next week we're going to be in Edinburgh and the week

:26:31.:26:44.

after that we are in Norwich. The details of how to apply

:26:45.:26:46.

are on the screen and I will Now here is a topic we have had

:26:47.:26:49.

a number of questions on. Why is the media refusing to portray

:26:50.:26:56.

Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light? In case you missed it,

:26:57.:26:59.

why is the media refusing to portray Well, I'm afraid they are reflecting

:27:00.:27:13.

a view not just of the media but of three quarters

:27:14.:27:20.

of the Labour Party who passed a vote of no

:27:21.:27:22.

confidence in him last year. My own opposite number,

:27:23.:27:25.

Keir Starmer, who is the shadow Brexit secretary, resigned last year

:27:26.:27:28.

and the words he gave were because he didn't think that

:27:29.:27:32.

Jeremy Corbyn could provide the leadership to negotiate

:27:33.:27:36.

a decent deal on Brexit. So I'm afraid what they are

:27:37.:27:41.

reflecting is a commonly held view. Now, look, I actually

:27:42.:27:45.

like Jeremy Corbyn. I took him to Washington with me

:27:46.:27:49.

when we got the release of the last British resident in Guantanamo Bay,

:27:50.:27:53.

and he was hopeful on that. But I'm afraid, in terms

:27:54.:27:57.

of actually leading a country, in terms of delivering

:27:58.:28:01.

on a government, in terms of making decisions, Brexit alone,

:28:02.:28:03.

six positions in nine months, he simply hasn't proved

:28:04.:28:05.

able to do the job. Laura, what's your

:28:06.:28:10.

complaint about the media? Nobody is listening to his policies

:28:11.:28:21.

and all the Conservatives seem to be doing is, like, portraying him

:28:22.:28:25.

in a negative light. They're not doing their own thing,

:28:26.:28:29.

they're just abusing him. And is that the papers, radio,

:28:30.:28:32.

television, everything? I'm in business and my role is not

:28:33.:28:35.

to take political sides. I see my role as working

:28:36.:28:49.

with whichever political party to help create a strong

:28:50.:28:51.

British economy. I think Jeremy Corbyn is clearly

:28:52.:28:55.

a man of strong conviction. I think in terms of business,

:28:56.:29:02.

what I would like to see is a little bit less of the "Business is nasty

:29:03.:29:08.

and you don't all pay your taxes". Of course, we know there

:29:09.:29:17.

are incidents of that but the truth is that business

:29:18.:29:19.

is a huge value creator. We pay, as business,

:29:20.:29:25.

when you take our corporation tax, National Insurance, all those tax,

:29:26.:29:28.

three quarters of all the taxes raised by the country

:29:29.:29:32.

is generated through business. We are a very important

:29:33.:29:35.

engine of the economy, and I would like to see a little bit

:29:36.:29:38.

more partnership of how we can work together

:29:39.:29:41.

and achieve economic growth. Laura says that the media

:29:42.:29:45.

are being unfair to Jeremy Corbyn, You know, I think the media

:29:46.:29:48.

will just pick up anything At the end of the day,

:29:49.:29:56.

I think our audience here today and the British population

:29:57.:30:03.

is intelligent to see through that and to make their decision based

:30:04.:30:07.

on the policies and based on the manifestos, and not what

:30:08.:30:10.

you're reading in the Daily Mail. APPLAUSE.

:30:11.:30:23.

OK. Leanne Wood? I think that the right and the far

:30:24.:30:28.

right on the march, not just here in the UK, but in other parts of the EU

:30:29.:30:34.

as well and in America, I think the media are reflecting that and anyone

:30:35.:30:37.

who's not on the right or the far right seems to be getting it. My

:30:38.:30:42.

colleague Nicola Sturgeon is getting a hard time as well. She's been

:30:43.:30:48.

described as one of the most difficult women in politics and I

:30:49.:30:53.

think part of that is around the way the media portray her. I would like

:30:54.:30:58.

to see a more balanced media, more balanced ideas. I think social media

:30:59.:31:01.

can help with some of that because it's not going through a filter. But

:31:02.:31:05.

I don't think the leader of the Labour Party is helping himself by

:31:06.:31:10.

refusing to participate in the electoral TV debates if the Prime

:31:11.:31:14.

Minister doesn't turn up. I think they should be both empty chaired if

:31:15.:31:18.

they don't show, but what they are doing by refusing to turn up is

:31:19.:31:23.

turning down that platform to put across your policy ideas, reducing

:31:24.:31:27.

the range of opinion available to people. There are large numbers of

:31:28.:31:31.

people who watch those television debates that might not access

:31:32.:31:34.

politics in any other way. I think it's important for democracy that

:31:35.:31:38.

they go ahead with the full range of opinion that's available.

:31:39.:31:41.

APPLAUSE. The woman there? I would like to

:31:42.:31:50.

say, I voted in the last general election, I'm voting in this general

:31:51.:31:53.

election and I would like to say, Jeremy Corbyn really turned my head

:31:54.:31:56.

to politics. He speaks about what is real and I don't think it's a case

:31:57.:32:00.

of the press being against him, I think it's just the case that

:32:01.:32:04.

no-one's reporting what Labour's actually standing for, people are

:32:05.:32:09.

voting for personalities and lies, rather than...

:32:10.:32:14.

APPLAUSE. Rebecca Long-Bailey, the question,

:32:15.:32:18.

is the media refusing to portray Jeremy Corbyn in a positive light.

:32:19.:32:23.

You may want to pick up on what Leanne said, he's not doing himself

:32:24.:32:28.

much of a service by refusing to debate with other party leaders?

:32:29.:32:33.

I'll be honest, it's been a struck until the media since Jeremy was

:32:34.:32:38.

elected leader. The media have focussed on divisions and people

:32:39.:32:42.

arguing with people within the party rather than reporting on our

:32:43.:32:45.

policies. We have a fight on our hands in this election, we are

:32:46.:32:49.

fighting for every single vote. While Theresa May is refusing to do

:32:50.:32:58.

TV debates and having stage-managed events, Jeremy is travelling the

:32:59.:33:01.

country showing how he'll represent Britain. This election is a choice,

:33:02.:33:05.

it's about having a Britain for the many, which is what the Labour Party

:33:06.:33:09.

believes in, where wealth and prosperity is shared, or it's a Tory

:33:10.:33:12.

Britain that only looks after a privileged few. And to come back to

:33:13.:33:15.

the point about business, it breaks my heart to hear you say that

:33:16.:33:18.

because we have been fighting to get our business message out there. We

:33:19.:33:21.

were at the front of the queue when it came to business rates, we were

:33:22.:33:25.

talking about how businesses were really being pushed to the edge of a

:33:26.:33:29.

cliff. We asked for manufacturing industries and other industries to

:33:30.:33:34.

be given support in the exemption of plant and machinery to grow their

:33:35.:33:38.

businesses because we think that Government and business in

:33:39.:33:41.

collaboration can deliver the future Britain needs, it will deliver the

:33:42.:33:44.

high-paid, high-skilled economy that these people need.

:33:45.:33:51.

APPLAUSE. Sorry, you didn't answer why he

:33:52.:33:54.

won't debate, even though Theresa May isn't there in the studio, why

:33:55.:33:58.

won't he debate with the others to get his ideas across? I think Jeremy

:33:59.:34:01.

having Theresa May taken the decision that he's taken he felt

:34:02.:34:05.

that it was necessary to go out and meet the people and develop his

:34:06.:34:09.

policies and discuss them with the general public. It's not one or the

:34:10.:34:15.

other, I'll be doing both. I'll be meeting the people and being

:34:16.:34:20.

involved in television debates. We are the opposition, we are the only

:34:21.:34:23.

chance of getting rid of the Tory party and Jeremy felt in order to

:34:24.:34:26.

get a fair hearing he needed to have a debate with Theresa May so if she

:34:27.:34:32.

comes to the debates a and I think she should because the British

:34:33.:34:36.

public need to hear what she has to say and she should be held to

:34:37.:34:39.

account, then Jeremy will be there as well. Politicians need to stop

:34:40.:34:45.

the mud-slinging. They quote this week mutton headed old mud lump, it

:34:46.:34:50.

does nobody any favour, it grabs headlines. It sets bad examples to

:34:51.:34:57.

children, we tell them not the bully and yet you're bullying each other

:34:58.:35:00.

in. The midst of all this we are losing the debates because the press

:35:01.:35:05.

are picking up on the mud slinging backwards and forwards, there's

:35:06.:35:07.

nothing reported about the policies and we need to hear the policies in

:35:08.:35:13.

adult grown-up debate. The TV debates are important. Yes, you on

:35:14.:35:19.

the gangway? Without debate, there can't be any scrutiny. Exactly.

:35:20.:35:26.

Theresa May's refused to debate Jeremy Corbyn. Silly sound bites are

:35:27.:35:31.

not match against honesty and integrity.

:35:32.:35:40.

APPLAUSE. That's why Mrs May will not debate

:35:41.:35:45.

with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. Because she does not have any policies. But

:35:46.:35:51.

she will on the other hand, as far as we know, at this stage, and it's

:35:52.:35:55.

not certain, debate with a Question Time audience. So she will argue her

:35:56.:36:02.

case with you and you and you and you. Why won't she debate Corbyn

:36:03.:36:06.

then? OK, I don't know the answer to that one. You, Sir, in the middle? I

:36:07.:36:14.

think my concern and I think a lot of people in the country would like

:36:15.:36:18.

to see Jeremy Corbyn because he will answer a question. All I've seen of

:36:19.:36:23.

Theresa May is dodge, Don, dodge, she hasn't answered anything

:36:24.:36:26.

directly. The BBC interview the other day, why can't we have

:36:27.:36:29.

politicians that will give us a direct answer like Jeremy Corbyn?

:36:30.:36:33.

APPLAUSE. Paul? Yes. Do you know, I sort of

:36:34.:36:38.

feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn, I have to say. I think he's an honourable,

:36:39.:36:44.

principled man, I disagree with his principles. And the problem he's got

:36:45.:36:49.

is that, although the press or the media are plunging the knife in his

:36:50.:36:52.

chest, his own party are plunging the knife in his back all the time

:36:53.:37:06.

so he goes on TV talking about Trident then he's being contradicted

:37:07.:37:10.

an hour later boy they are members of his Shadow Cabinet.

:37:11.:37:19.

on the manifestos, and not what you're reading in the Daily Mail.

:37:20.:37:28.

You've got the Blairites who want a bit of Corbyn.

:37:29.:37:31.

You've got Corbyn himself who is in effect a throwback to a bygone era.

:37:32.:37:34.

But at least with Corbyn you've got a clear choice in this election,

:37:35.:37:38.

because unfortunately what happened with politics during the Blairite

:37:39.:37:39.

era is that everyone rushed to the Centre.

:37:40.:37:42.

I mean, there's a clear choice with Jeremy Corbyn as leader

:37:43.:37:44.

You could give me ten Jeremy Corbyns over any Tony Blair, any day.

:37:45.:37:50.

The use of food banks has increased under this Tory government.

:37:51.:38:00.

Should we hang our heads in shame that as one of the richest

:38:01.:38:04.

countries in the world, people are queueing for food?

:38:05.:38:06.

Juergen, would you like to start on that?

:38:07.:38:14.

The answer is that it's a real tragic situation, isn't it,

:38:15.:38:21.

that we've not been able to raise living standards, and we have

:38:22.:38:26.

and we have more in-work poverty than we have had before.

:38:27.:38:32.

However, we need to find a solution to that.

:38:33.:38:35.

And this is definitely an issue where, you know,

:38:36.:38:37.

we need to really raise above party politics, and there is a really

:38:38.:38:41.

And that is that we have, for decades, actually not focused

:38:42.:38:49.

on what is it that generates wealth in this country.

:38:50.:38:53.

And one of the key things that generates wealth is manufacturing.

:38:54.:39:00.

It's high-technology industries, which export,

:39:01.:39:03.

which create high-value jobs, which create productivity.

:39:04.:39:07.

And through those mechanisms, we can actually raise wages

:39:08.:39:10.

And we have not had a strategic approach for that,

:39:11.:39:17.

which has to be long-term, so it has to be across governments,

:39:18.:39:20.

And we need a much, much stronger focus on that,

:39:21.:39:24.

and only through that can we start raising living standards again.

:39:25.:39:31.

Wendy Doherty, David Davis, put it very vividly.

:39:32.:39:41.

Shouldn't we hang our heads in shame that in one of the richest

:39:42.:39:45.

countries in the world, people are queueing for free food?

:39:46.:39:47.

And nobody is comfortable with the idea of using food banks.

:39:48.:39:50.

Let me pick up on Juergen's point, because he has a point,

:39:51.:39:57.

that in the Western world we have to think much harder, be more agile

:39:58.:40:00.

about encouraging business, encouraging wealth creation.

:40:01.:40:01.

And that's what Theresa May, actually one of the unique things

:40:02.:40:07.

about her, in terms of leader of the Tory party, is she believes

:40:08.:40:10.

She believes in creating the foci for development,

:40:11.:40:13.

the innovation, the research, apprenticeships, all of these

:40:14.:40:20.

things central to her approach to Conservatism.

:40:21.:40:21.

You can't do it without wealth creation.

:40:22.:40:25.

At the other end, the thing that brings people out of poverty is not,

:40:26.:40:28.

It's getting up to do a job that brings self-respect, brings money.

:40:29.:40:37.

And we've got 2.8 million more people in work today than we had

:40:38.:40:40.

when we came into power, the highest level of employment ever

:40:41.:40:43.

in our country and the lowest level of unemployment for over a decade.

:40:44.:40:46.

When the Prime Minister appeared on Andrew Marr's programme,

:40:47.:40:56.

he quoted to her the Royal College of Nursing saying that nurses

:40:57.:40:59.

were even turning to food banks, employed nurses were turning

:41:00.:41:01.

And her reply was, there are many complex reasons.

:41:02.:41:08.

Presumably people go to food banks because they are hungry.

:41:09.:41:11.

People have short-term cash issues, all sorts of things.

:41:12.:41:13.

The complexity of individual people's lives.

:41:14.:41:16.

But that doesn't mean it's something you want to see.

:41:17.:41:23.

The main reason that people are going to food banks

:41:24.:41:26.

is because there are delays with paying benefits and there have

:41:27.:41:29.

been changes to social security with the pernicious Tory welfare

:41:30.:41:32.

reforms which have cut money to people with disabilities.

:41:33.:41:38.

They've cut money to the children whose parents have been bereaved.

:41:39.:41:43.

They've cut money to any third, fourth or fifth child in a family,

:41:44.:41:46.

unless the mother can prove that she was raped when that

:41:47.:41:49.

And if we give the Tories a bigger mandate in this election,

:41:50.:42:00.

There's been a lot of conversation about industry being the main way

:42:01.:42:10.

of us avoiding the use of food banks.

:42:11.:42:12.

However, what happens when those people using the food banks

:42:13.:42:15.

are your public sector workers, where industry isn't

:42:16.:42:17.

We seem to have stopped caring firstly about those

:42:18.:42:22.

that need caring for, and secondly for the people that

:42:23.:42:25.

And we seem to have no answer to that currently.

:42:26.:42:29.

I have not visited a food bank before but I have

:42:30.:42:36.

And the vast majority of them that do go for free food smoke,

:42:37.:42:46.

Some people use food banks who are in work.

:42:47.:42:52.

Last night I travelled through Wigan town centre to Hindley and I saw ten

:42:53.:43:06.

people sitting in doorways, obviously not watching Sky.

:43:07.:43:21.

The benefit system as we refer to it is the main reason people

:43:22.:43:24.

are falling out of society and living on the streets.

:43:25.:43:26.

There's been an exponential increase in homelessness, and it's

:43:27.:43:29.

Well I'm telling you, it's a purposely designed

:43:30.:43:42.

policy of creating more dismay and discomfort.

:43:43.:43:50.

And this man is not an unintelligent man, and he knows what's going on.

:43:51.:43:53.

The party that introduced the living wage, which is actually

:43:54.:44:04.

raising people's wages, the party that is creating a welfare

:44:05.:44:06.

system that's trying to give people an to get back to work.

:44:07.:44:13.

-- trying to give people an incentive to get back to work.

:44:14.:44:18.

Of course there's a homeless problem.

:44:19.:44:26.

Well, and we've been building more houses

:44:27.:44:28.

to help with that, too, 313,000 houses in

:44:29.:44:30.

Well, look, we are in Wigan tonight and I'm sure many of the audience

:44:31.:44:39.

members have read the famous book the Road to Wigan Pier

:44:40.:44:41.

by George Orwell where in the 1930s he travelled across the country

:44:42.:44:44.

to see how people, often in work, were living in destitution.

:44:45.:44:47.

There's a group of people recreating his footsteps.

:44:48.:44:49.

Recently they visited a Staffordshire food bank.

:44:50.:44:50.

And in that food bank they met a man who walked seven

:44:51.:44:53.

He was on a zero-hours contract, often turned away and had to walk

:44:54.:44:58.

He was 50 and he'd spent 15 years fighting for Britain

:44:59.:45:04.

Now, is this the kind of Britain he deserves,

:45:05.:45:12.

where he is forced to rely on charity?

:45:13.:45:15.

I think it's absolutely shameful that we have food

:45:16.:45:17.

banks on our streets, that we aren't building an economy

:45:18.:45:22.

that will keep people sustained, that we've got a government that

:45:23.:45:25.

hands out tax breaks to a wealthy elite whilst cutting the benefits

:45:26.:45:28.

And I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made

:45:29.:45:32.

about investing in business and industry to create

:45:33.:45:35.

those high-paid, high skilled jobs of the future,

:45:36.:45:37.

but unfortunately this government isn't delivering that.

:45:38.:45:41.

We're one of the lowest countries in the OECD in terms of investment

:45:42.:45:45.

in industry and innovation at 1.7% of GDP.

:45:46.:45:48.

Our competitors around the world are on 3%.

:45:49.:45:52.

So to deliver the economy that this country deserves and to share

:45:53.:45:56.

the wealth equally around the regions and nations,

:45:57.:45:58.

we need to elect a Labour government so that we can invest

:45:59.:46:01.

Quite clearly there is a problem with homelessness in this country.

:46:02.:46:12.

There's lots of issues surrounding why people end up homeless,

:46:13.:46:17.

mental health issues, there can be issues

:46:18.:46:20.

Obviously people being put out of work as well.

:46:21.:46:25.

Clearly, there isn't enough houses in Britain.

:46:26.:46:29.

The problem that we've got is that we've had a massive population boom,

:46:30.:46:34.

and that does go back to the issue of how many people

:46:35.:46:37.

But equally, we haven't built enough houses over the years.

:46:38.:46:40.

We need a real council house building programme.

:46:41.:46:46.

And we're sitting here in Wigan tonight.

:46:47.:46:50.

This is part of my constituency, I am an MEP for the north-west.

:46:51.:46:53.

And I just feel as if we've been left behind.

:46:54.:46:56.

Because everything in this country, all of the money, everything

:46:57.:46:58.

What we want to see is not only real devolved power

:46:59.:47:07.

The Tories had this Northern powerhouse,

:47:08.:47:13.

I'll give you an example just before I finish.

:47:14.:47:22.

In London they are spending ?5,000 per head on infrastructure.

:47:23.:47:25.

In the north-east of England it's about ?400.

:47:26.:47:29.

We need to get the money out of London and out of places

:47:30.:47:33.

-- we need to get it out to places like the north-west of England.

:47:34.:47:45.

One point from the woman in the third row and then we'll go

:47:46.:47:48.

The issue of food banks, you say it's about job creation,

:47:49.:47:54.

Surely it's going to get worse because with artificial

:47:55.:47:57.

intelligence, jobs in the service sector are going to be impacted.

:47:58.:48:00.

Anything that is repeatable, a robot can do it.

:48:01.:48:02.

Well, you raise a very good point here, and this is exactly why

:48:03.:48:09.

we need a much stronger focus on investing and innovation and R

:48:10.:48:13.

Because actually my calculation is that as long as we invest very

:48:14.:48:18.

well, we can actually create more jobs than we displace

:48:19.:48:20.

through the implementation of these technologies.

:48:21.:48:25.

But we have to, with that, create the new industries.

:48:26.:48:27.

We have to create instead of having the manufacturing jobs.

:48:28.:48:30.

It will be jobs who are writing software, creating

:48:31.:48:33.

We have to create new jobs in technologies like

:48:34.:48:37.

Here in Wigan there some companies creating brand-new textiles

:48:38.:48:43.

And more of that can create more jobs, highly paid jobs,

:48:44.:48:50.

more tax income, which will pay for more welfare,

:48:51.:48:52.

I said earlier on when it was briefly

:48:53.:49:00.

mentioned by one or two of you that we would come

:49:01.:49:03.

Rebecca Crabtree, with a rather different take on the usual

:49:04.:49:07.

As a portrayed saviour of the NHS, how does the Labour Party plan

:49:08.:49:16.

to combat an NHS culture of wastage, inefficiency and poor

:49:17.:49:19.

It's a question that everybody around

:49:20.:49:29.

Paul Nuttall, what do you say to that?

:49:30.:49:34.

While you have a chance to think, Paul!

:49:35.:49:44.

Well, the question is, obviously behind Rebecca's question

:49:45.:49:47.

is that the NHS has a culture of wastage, inefficiency

:49:48.:49:49.

It's no good just putting money into it.

:49:50.:49:58.

Well, you have to start by putting money into it. People are getting

:49:59.:50:05.

older, the demands on the health service are greater. More high-tech

:50:06.:50:09.

medicine has to be delivered, which is expensive. So you do have to put

:50:10.:50:13.

money in and that starts with the economy. If you don't deliver the

:50:14.:50:16.

money, do not have enough created in the economy, you can't do it. We put

:50:17.:50:22.

in 10 billion so far. We are talking about your 350 million a week, at 10

:50:23.:50:27.

billion is more than the Labour Party promised that the last

:50:28.:50:33.

election. Out of that, to be fair, talking about inefficiency, the

:50:34.:50:36.

health service is actually delivering, according to independent

:50:37.:50:39.

reviews, better major care, better outcomes than three years ago, five

:50:40.:50:46.

years ago, ten years ago. So we should be fair, it is doing a good

:50:47.:50:50.

job, it is still a world leader in many respects. Beyond that, we have

:50:51.:50:53.

to keep innovating. We have a proposal, sustainability and

:50:54.:50:59.

transformation partnerships, which will actually improve delivery on

:51:00.:51:03.

the ground. Labour are opposing it, even though they supported it six

:51:04.:51:07.

months ago. But that sort of reform will deliver better outcomes again.

:51:08.:51:11.

They are improving but they will improve even further. Rebecca, come

:51:12.:51:16.

back to your question. You are missing the point that just putting

:51:17.:51:20.

money into something is not the solution. Much of the money is

:51:21.:51:25.

wasted because we have not got enough nurses, midwives, and the

:51:26.:51:29.

money is being wasted on agency staff, who get paid approximately

:51:30.:51:33.

three times the wage. APPLAUSE

:51:34.:51:40.

And that is what I mean about inefficiency in the NHS.

:51:41.:51:48.

It is not run like a business. Rebecca Long Bailey, you say you are

:51:49.:51:52.

putting money into the NHS but it is not run like a business and the

:51:53.:51:57.

money will be wasted, Rebecca says. There has been a narrative put out

:51:58.:52:01.

about the NHS for some time in terms of inefficiency and wastage. There

:52:02.:52:06.

can always be changes made to make systems more efficient, but it seems

:52:07.:52:11.

it has come out of Jeremy Hunt's playbook. Remember, he co-authored a

:52:12.:52:15.

book calling for the privatisation of the NHS, so we know where the

:52:16.:52:21.

rhetoric is coming from and what is. The picture of the child lying on

:52:22.:52:26.

two plastic chairs in an A corridor haunts me and many in the

:52:27.:52:30.

audience, I'm sure, because that is the extent of the NHS crisis. We

:52:31.:52:34.

have over 1 million vulnerable people who cannot look after

:52:35.:52:38.

themselves because of cuts to social care. The crisis was of this

:52:39.:52:43.

government was Mac making. They were setting it up for privatisation.

:52:44.:52:47.

They orchestrated a top-down reorganisation which cost ?3 billion

:52:48.:52:53.

and did not have a positive outcome. Can you point to any privatisation?

:52:54.:52:59.

They cut ?600 million from mental health and 4.6 billion from social

:53:00.:53:04.

care. They are driving it into the sea. Can you point to any? The rate

:53:05.:53:13.

of use of non-NHS health care was much higher, the growth rate was

:53:14.:53:16.

much higher under Tony Blair's Labour than it has been under the

:53:17.:53:20.

Conservative coalition governments. So how can you point to this as

:53:21.:53:26.

supposedly some sort of privatisation initiative? There no

:53:27.:53:30.

facts behind your argument. I would read Jeremy Hunt's book if you have

:53:31.:53:36.

not looked at it. It is a race to was an American -based insurance

:53:37.:53:40.

system that is privatised. And we haven't got it. The lady quite

:53:41.:53:43.

properly raised the issue of the demand on the health service. 11,000

:53:44.:53:47.

more doctors, over 12,000 more nurses and midwives since we have

:53:48.:53:52.

been empowered. That is not privatisation, that is public money

:53:53.:53:56.

put in for public service, delivering better outcomes for

:53:57.:53:59.

people suffering from dreadful diseases. Juergen Maier. I watch

:54:00.:54:07.

this programme pretty much every week and it seems we have the same

:54:08.:54:10.

debate every week. And I don't think we are going to resolve it by saying

:54:11.:54:15.

we need to throw many more billions into the service, which is exactly

:54:16.:54:20.

the point that you are asking. I think there is a fundamental issue

:54:21.:54:24.

here, and when I compare the National health system here too that

:54:25.:54:29.

I have experienced in Germany and Austria, a fundamental difference is

:54:30.:54:32.

that we just do not put the focus on preventative health. And what that

:54:33.:54:39.

means is that our hospitals, our health service is just overloaded,

:54:40.:54:42.

so they don't have any time to actually sort out their

:54:43.:54:45.

efficiencies, which is your point. I think there is a solution, and the

:54:46.:54:49.

solution is potentially happening right here in Greater Manchester.

:54:50.:54:54.

This will be one of the first evolved city regions where there

:54:55.:54:57.

will be the funding for both social care and the National health has --

:54:58.:55:02.

and the national health system will be under one responsible T. That is

:55:03.:55:05.

the first time there will be an incentive in the system to make sure

:55:06.:55:10.

that we do more preventative medicine, to make sure that people

:55:11.:55:15.

do not end up in hospital and do not end up with the actual social care,

:55:16.:55:19.

after-care type of issues. I think that is the way we have to go to get

:55:20.:55:31.

more efficiency. The NHS is its workers. That is what this

:55:32.:55:34.

government is not putting money into. 1% pay rise again this year.

:55:35.:55:40.

That is for the last seven years, 1%, which is devaluing the wages of

:55:41.:55:45.

nurses, encouraging people to go on banks and to go to agencies, to

:55:46.:55:49.

leave the country. There is a shortage of doctors and nurses but

:55:50.:55:53.

you will not give us a pay rise. APPLAUSE

:55:54.:55:58.

We only have a couple of minutes left.

:55:59.:56:04.

The first thing you could do is to merge social care and health care.

:56:05.:56:08.

In January there were 1 million people lying in hospital beds who

:56:09.:56:11.

could not leave because they had nowhere else to go. It's insane. The

:56:12.:56:17.

problem we have is that when Labour came to power in 1997 we were

:56:18.:56:20.

spending 33,000,000,000-a-year on the NHS, and when they left we were

:56:21.:56:25.

spending 99 billion. The problem is that they stuffed the NHS with pen

:56:26.:56:30.

pushers, bureaucrats and managers, OK.

:56:31.:56:30.

APPLAUSE I have to stop you, Paul.

:56:31.:56:40.

He wants to privatise the NHS. He has said in the past that he wants

:56:41.:56:45.

to privatise the NHS. Our NHS needs defending. It is a risk of

:56:46.:56:48.

privatisation and has been underfunded. I agree that there is

:56:49.:56:53.

waste in terms of agency staff and locums, and we need investment in

:56:54.:56:57.

staff. Isn't it interesting that those on the top of the pay grade

:56:58.:57:01.

get decent paying creases, while those at the bottom are those who

:57:02.:57:05.

have had the pay freeze? APPLAUSE

:57:06.:57:06.

Very quickly, because we have 30 seconds left.

:57:07.:57:14.

A lot of the problem is streamlining they are trying to do with the NHS.

:57:15.:57:18.

That little boy might have been waiting for a bed in another

:57:19.:57:21.

district general because there was no bed in his hospital -- his

:57:22.:57:25.

hospital that he was in A for, because they closed the beds and

:57:26.:57:29.

moved it to a different one and were waiting for an anvil him. This is

:57:30.:57:35.

the streamlining causing a backlog of patients in A At the back. The

:57:36.:57:42.

main issue that we have and we are bypassing is the amount of people

:57:43.:57:46.

that are in this country. We are a very tiny country with too many

:57:47.:57:50.

people, and the funding with the NHS does not recognise that. As Paul has

:57:51.:57:55.

just noted, it was Labour and Tony Blair who opened our borders and

:57:56.:57:58.

that rose dramatically, so how are we going to do that? You are more

:57:59.:58:04.

likely to have an immigrant treating you. People that want to work in

:58:05.:58:13.

that sector. We have a shortage of doctors. We need more immigrants.

:58:14.:58:20.

The don't want to work there because there is too much pressure. As has

:58:21.:58:26.

been said, we always debate this on Question Time and we have run out of

:58:27.:58:29.

time before we have got through everyone with their hand up.

:58:30.:58:33.

Apologies, but our time is up. We will be in Edinburgh next week and

:58:34.:58:36.

Norwich the week after, so come and join us there. Edinburgh and

:58:37.:58:41.

Norwich. On the screen is the website and the number to apply. If

:58:42.:58:47.

you are listening on five live on medium wave, if you are able to get

:58:48.:58:52.

it, which I never can, the debate carries on until the early hours of

:58:53.:58:56.

the morning and it is very exciting and vivid when you catch it. My

:58:57.:59:00.

thanks to our panel and to all of you who came to Wigan to take part.

:59:01.:59:03.

Until next Thursday, good night.

:59:04.:59:09.

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Wigan. On the panel are Conservative Brexit secretary David Davis, Labour's shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey, UKIP leader Paul Nuttall, Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood and the CEO of Siemens UK Juergen Maier.


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