27/04/2017 Question Time


27/04/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Oxford. On the panel are Damian Green, Clive Lewis, Jo Swinson, Stephen Gethins and Camilla Cavendish.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 27/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes

:00:00.:00:07.

from the Debating Chamber of the Oxford Union.

:00:08.:00:20.

and Pensions Secretary, Damian Green.

:00:21.:00:24.

Labour's former Shadow Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis.

:00:25.:00:27.

For the Liberal Democrats, Jo Swinson, who was Business

:00:28.:00:30.

and Equalities Minister in the coalition.

:00:31.:00:34.

The SNP's Europe spokesman, Stephen Gethins.

:00:35.:00:38.

And the journ Camilla alist and former policy

:00:39.:00:41.

now in the House of Lords as a non-affiliated peer,

:00:42.:00:45.

As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

:00:46.:01:06.

Twitter or text 83981 and press the red button to see

:01:07.:01:11.

Our first question to night from Priscilla Fisher, please. Has the

:01:12.:01:32.

general election been called for the benefit of the Conservative Party

:01:33.:01:39.

and not the country? Clive Lewis. Yes, quite clearly it has.

:01:40.:01:40.

APPLAUSE And I am quite pleased to say I

:01:41.:01:51.

voted against it because I think it's a cynical ploy.

:01:52.:01:54.

The Prime Minister has gone into this election having said 11 times

:01:55.:01:58.

before that she would not call an early general election. She has

:01:59.:02:02.

worked out that her chaotic plan on Brexit and the policies she and her

:02:03.:02:08.

government have embarked upon since 2010 mean that, also with internal

:02:09.:02:11.

dissent in her party, she needs to go to the polls now. I think most

:02:12.:02:16.

people will see it as a cynical, manipulative ploy to maximise on

:02:17.:02:19.

what she is doing, when what she needs to be doing is bringing the

:02:20.:02:25.

country together in one of the most chaotic and undermining situations

:02:26.:02:28.

we have seen in the post-war period. She is not doing that. It is

:02:29.:02:32.

divisive and quite simply she is out of line.

:02:33.:02:33.

APPLAUSE So why didn't you get your whole

:02:34.:02:44.

party to vote against it? I think the decision that my own

:02:45.:02:49.

party made, to go and vote for this, was wrong. I went through a

:02:50.:02:54.

different lobby to them. But I understand why, because when Theresa

:02:55.:02:57.

May and the policies she is putting forward, day in, day out, as many on

:02:58.:03:02.

this table will know, they are having a devastating impact in our

:03:03.:03:05.

communities. In Norwich South I see people every week telling me about

:03:06.:03:10.

the hardship they are in, difficulties in the NHS, the

:03:11.:03:13.

homelessness people face and the hardship. My party, Jeremy Corbyn

:03:14.:03:17.

and the Shadow Cabinet felt we had to take Theresa May on if she

:03:18.:03:22.

offered this opportunity. But it was wrong. I think we should have said,

:03:23.:03:26.

if you want to be so manipulative we will happily vote for you in a vote

:03:27.:03:29.

of no confidence in your own government. If you want the election

:03:30.:03:35.

badly enough, vote against yourself. Jo Swinson. Yes, the election was

:03:36.:03:39.

called for the benefit of the Conservative Party. Theresa May was

:03:40.:03:44.

asked, what part of the 20 point lead in the polls made you think

:03:45.:03:47.

calling an election would be a good thing to do. But this is an election

:03:48.:03:52.

that can benefit the country. There are millions of people across the

:03:53.:03:56.

country who woke up on June 24 last year devastated that Britain had

:03:57.:04:00.

voted to leave the EU, and have looked on in horror as events have

:04:01.:04:05.

unfolded since. There were also millions of people who voted Leave

:04:06.:04:09.

but did not vote for Theresa May's hard Brexit, which includes leaving

:04:10.:04:12.

the single market and wrecking the economy. So there are plenty of

:04:13.:04:18.

people who look at politics, see it is broken, see a Conservative

:04:19.:04:20.

government that has gone for the hardest of all Brexits and has got

:04:21.:04:25.

away with it because frankly the opposition in the Labour Party has

:04:26.:04:30.

been hopeless. So this is the chance to change the country, to get a much

:04:31.:04:34.

better deal for the country, and to have an opposition that can actually

:04:35.:04:38.

hold this hard Brexit government to account.

:04:39.:04:38.

APPLAUSE Damian Green.

:04:39.:04:50.

I find it extraordinary to have opposition politicians saying the

:04:51.:04:52.

Government is terrible but we don't want an election, do not want the

:04:53.:04:56.

people to decide whether the government is any good. That is

:04:57.:04:59.

exactly what you said, Clive, you went into an attack and then said, I

:05:00.:05:03.

did not want an election, which is absurd. Did you not pass a law

:05:04.:05:10.

saying there would be no election until 2020? She said she had changed

:05:11.:05:14.

her mind for two reasons. First, because the Brexit process, as Tim

:05:15.:05:18.

Farron said, he would come up parliament and grind down the

:05:19.:05:22.

government. There are 100 Lib Dem peers in the House of Lords who

:05:23.:05:26.

could do that. They would make the Brexit process chaotic. And

:05:27.:05:34.

secondly,... I love it that nobody can get a word in edge ways when

:05:35.:05:39.

they get together. This is the coalition of chaos made flesh, these

:05:40.:05:41.

three. APPLAUSE

:05:42.:05:45.

The point is that there is a window where you can have that now because

:05:46.:05:51.

the European Union has gone away to think about its negotiating tactics.

:05:52.:05:56.

We can have an election now, and out of this election, if people vote

:05:57.:06:00.

Conservative, if we have a Conservative government returned

:06:01.:06:03.

under Theresa May, we will have a stronger and more stable government

:06:04.:06:07.

that will get the best deal for Britain in these vital Brexit

:06:08.:06:10.

negotiations. I cannot overstress the importance. We need a good deal

:06:11.:06:15.

for Britain, a strong and stable government under Theresa May to get

:06:16.:06:20.

that deal for Britain. Can I pick up on this? I relish the opportunity to

:06:21.:06:23.

do my bit to get rid of a Tory government and the damage they have

:06:24.:06:28.

done, but we had an EU referendum to try and sort out a Tory civil war.

:06:29.:06:32.

We are now having a general election to try and sort out a Tory civil

:06:33.:06:37.

war. And all the time we are having more chaos, more uncertainty for

:06:38.:06:42.

jobs and the economy. What is the Tory civil war at the moment? The

:06:43.:06:47.

only reason you do not see a Tory civil war going on is because the

:06:48.:06:52.

Labour one is worse. There is a hard Tory Brexit being driven by the hard

:06:53.:06:56.

right of the Conservative Party. They have taken us out of the singer

:06:57.:07:00.

market that will cost jobs, leaving us with uncertainty over research

:07:01.:07:04.

funding, which is crucial in areas like Oxford and the area I

:07:05.:07:08.

represent, Saint Andrews, as well. People's jobs rely on this, and you

:07:09.:07:12.

are using it as a political tool to take advantage of the mess we are

:07:13.:07:17.

in. Are you saying that Theresa May wants a soft Brexit and by getting a

:07:18.:07:21.

bigger majority you will get the kind of Brexit that you want?

:07:22.:07:26.

Because of the irresponsibility of Leave campaigning on a bank piece of

:07:27.:07:31.

paper, no one has told us what shape leaving the EU will take. We will

:07:32.:07:34.

debate this in Parliament. Having scrutiny in Parliament is a good

:07:35.:07:40.

thing. It is the point why we are here, standing again, it is a good

:07:41.:07:43.

thing and it makes for better government.

:07:44.:07:45.

APPLAUSE There are a lot of hands up in the

:07:46.:07:52.

audience. I will come to you in a moment,

:07:53.:08:01.

Camilla. At the very back first. One of the benefits of this election is

:08:02.:08:05.

that, as of the 9th of June, we actually stand a fighting chance of

:08:06.:08:10.

a process of getting an opposition leader who is credible and stands a

:08:11.:08:18.

chance of winning in 2025. Five years from now, 2022. Because it

:08:19.:08:22.

certainly will not be happening under Corbyn. So you think the

:08:23.:08:26.

election's achievement will be that Corbyn will resign. It will be a

:08:27.:08:31.

disaster in the polls and we might get an effectively do. What makes

:08:32.:08:36.

you think he will resign? I think it is a foregone conclusion, isn't it?

:08:37.:08:42.

I don't know, I am asking you. The woman in the back row. Why was the

:08:43.:08:47.

general election not called before Article 50 was triggered? Camilla

:08:48.:08:53.

Cavendish. I am going to make myself unpopular and say that I actually

:08:54.:08:57.

think it is both. Clearly, the election is for the benefit of the

:08:58.:09:01.

Conservative Party. The little parties are cynical vote winning

:09:02.:09:03.

machines. She's going to capitalise on the lead. But I have been really

:09:04.:09:09.

worried that we would put ourselves in a position where the government

:09:10.:09:13.

of the day was going to be focusing, from 2019 onwards, on winning the

:09:14.:09:17.

next election, just at the time when they would need to be properly

:09:18.:09:21.

negotiating with the 27 other countries that we need to do a deal

:09:22.:09:25.

with, and that she would be under enormous pressure from her right

:09:26.:09:28.

wing, she has quite a small majority, to do something that I

:09:29.:09:32.

certainly would not agree with. I think she needs more room to

:09:33.:09:37.

manoeuvre. I actually think it is a good thing if we can get a longer

:09:38.:09:42.

period to have this negotiation. That does not mean that I don't

:09:43.:09:46.

agree with Stephen that we absolutely need parliamentary

:09:47.:09:48.

scrutiny of the process at the same time. But this is a very dangerous

:09:49.:09:54.

moment for the country. We have a huge and important negotiation that

:09:55.:09:57.

I think transcends politics to some extent. We need the best deal. It is

:09:58.:10:02.

hard that half of it is going to be done behind closed doors. That is

:10:03.:10:05.

hard to your head round. But I do think a bit more time might give us

:10:06.:10:08.

a better chance. APPLAUSE

:10:09.:10:14.

The man in blue. For months, people have complained

:10:15.:10:19.

about Theresa May not having a mandate for hard Brexit, but now

:10:20.:10:22.

when she has gone to get a mandate, people like Clive Lewis are still

:10:23.:10:26.

complaining. When will Theresa May win? At the front. I think Tim

:10:27.:10:34.

Farron brought up an interesting point at PMQs a couple of days ago,

:10:35.:10:40.

that the legacy of this parliament will be the absence of an effective

:10:41.:10:46.

opposition. And I think maybe the Labour Party needs to thank Theresa

:10:47.:10:50.

May for calling the election. Because if nothing else it will sort

:10:51.:10:54.

out the mess that is in the Labour Party, because we need the Labour

:10:55.:10:58.

Party working and functioning as it should be, an effective opposition,

:10:59.:11:03.

if that is where it is going to be. I do not agree with him, I'm shaking

:11:04.:11:12.

my head. I thought you were nodding. Take up his point. I respectfully

:11:13.:11:18.

disagree. I find it interesting that if Theresa May wanted a mandate, the

:11:19.:11:24.

Conservative Party were busy telling us after the referendum,

:11:25.:11:27.

interpreting what that result meant, that the British people had spoken.

:11:28.:11:31.

She had that mandate. When she became Prime Minister, that is when

:11:32.:11:35.

she should have caught the election. I find it laughable that you would

:11:36.:11:39.

say you have caught the election because nine Liberal Democrat MPs,

:11:40.:11:42.

who voted three different ways on Article 50, are going to stop the

:11:43.:11:49.

Brexit negotiations. It is about the House of Lords, I said that. This is

:11:50.:11:54.

more about having a 1-party state, that is what you want. Being accused

:11:55.:11:59.

of having a 1-party state when you have called an election is absurd.

:12:00.:12:04.

This is a democratic process. Interestingly, I campaigned on the

:12:05.:12:09.

remain side. Nobody fought harder for Remain. But unlike the

:12:10.:12:13.

impression I'm getting here, I am a Democrat and I accept the result of

:12:14.:12:16.

the referendum. What is important is to get on with the best Brexit we

:12:17.:12:21.

can have a have a prosperous Britain. You have already ruled that

:12:22.:12:26.

out. You were on the Remain side, you must be looking at what is

:12:27.:12:30.

happening with dismay. Theresa May is standing there and saying, before

:12:31.:12:34.

we even talked our European counterparts, we will rule out being

:12:35.:12:37.

in the sing the market, not even try to see if that is possible. Surely

:12:38.:12:42.

to have that trade without all of those costs of businesses trying to

:12:43.:12:45.

export, if you are going to say let's make the best possible Brexit,

:12:46.:12:50.

try and bring the country together after... I respect the view. We

:12:51.:12:54.

fought, we lost, we have to respect the view of the people. You are not

:12:55.:12:59.

doing that because you are already rolling out what would be the best

:13:00.:13:05.

version of Brexit. Let's respect our audience and hear from them as well.

:13:06.:13:10.

Briefly, Stephen. The SNP has been described as an effective

:13:11.:13:14.

opposition. Damien talks about fearing the House of Lords. The

:13:15.:13:18.

House of Lords is a democratic abomination and will have absolutely

:13:19.:13:22.

no impact on the House of Lords after this general election. It will

:13:23.:13:26.

still be there, unelected, and will still have an impact on each of us.

:13:27.:13:32.

Why not scrap it? I voted for a fully democratically elected House

:13:33.:13:35.

of Lords when it came up a couple of parliaments ago. It is not for the

:13:36.:13:39.

government to abolish houses of parliament. It is for Parliament to

:13:40.:13:43.

do that. What is important is that we have a strong and stable

:13:44.:13:47.

government to get the deal. We can argue about the type of deal but it

:13:48.:13:51.

seems unarguable that if you have a strong, elected Prime Minister with

:13:52.:13:55.

a new elected mandate, Britain's position will be put better in those

:13:56.:14:02.

vital negotiations. In the middle. If we are going to have an election,

:14:03.:14:07.

can we at least have a grown-up election? I bet my wife ?10 that

:14:08.:14:13.

Damian Green would say coalition of chaos and strong and stable

:14:14.:14:16.

government in his first contribution.

:14:17.:14:17.

APPLAUSE Would that the Damien Lewis or Clive

:14:18.:14:32.

Green you were talking about? Has he caught the cliche virus from

:14:33.:14:37.

his boss? Can we have a more grown-up debate where we use the

:14:38.:14:40.

language of Shakespeare with a bit more flexibility?

:14:41.:14:45.

The general public were upset when Theresa May got into power unelected

:14:46.:14:50.

and now when there is an election, apparently she is being

:14:51.:14:52.

manipulative. How'd she stand a chance please anyone?

:14:53.:14:53.

APPLAUSE You, sir.

:14:54.:15:04.

The chaos we are looking at today, it identifies exactly what we should

:15:05.:15:08.

not be doing in this election. We do need a unified front, and I believe

:15:09.:15:13.

Labour has some very good candidates. Clive is in front of us

:15:14.:15:18.

today and there are others. And it should not be Jeremy Corbyn. I do

:15:19.:15:23.

not get your point. The Labour leader should not necessarily be

:15:24.:15:26.

Jeremy Corbyn going forwards. I think at the end of the day, you

:15:27.:15:30.

are asking people to vote on uncertainties. This whole Brexit

:15:31.:15:34.

thing, we don't know what we are going into, what we are voting on,

:15:35.:15:38.

we don't know what agreement we are going to get. We have two years to

:15:39.:15:44.

negotiate. We do not know if we can negotiate the deal that we want. How

:15:45.:15:47.

can you ask people to vote on something they do not know,

:15:48.:15:51.

essentially? You would rather it had waited for three years? Yes, maybe.

:15:52.:15:57.

I don't know what the alternative is, but I think this is the wrong

:15:58.:16:00.

time to be calling a general election.

:16:01.:16:04.

The woman there. I mean, how will the Government's apparent lack of

:16:05.:16:14.

clarity on the Brexit demands affect how people vote? How do they think

:16:15.:16:20.

it won't affect how people vote? People who had confidence in the

:16:21.:16:24.

Tories in the first place, we've had no clarity. You don't know what

:16:25.:16:32.

you're voting for? Why would a coalition of chaos, so to speak, why

:16:33.:16:37.

would that not be a better alternative? That's a good point. I

:16:38.:16:44.

would like to get Simon Fisher's questions question on that. Is

:16:45.:16:47.

tactical voting undemocratic or the only way to prevent a hard Brexit Is

:16:48.:16:53.

tactical voting, voting for a party other than your natural allegiance.

:16:54.:16:56.

Tony Blair was saying it may mean some Labour people voting Tory this

:16:57.:17:00.

time round. Is that undemocratic or is the way to prevent a hard Brexit.

:17:01.:17:07.

Jo Swinson? We have the fist past the post voting system which some

:17:08.:17:11.

people will say can produce results which don't necessarily look like

:17:12.:17:15.

they are respecting the will of the overall democracy. In the 2015

:17:16.:17:20.

election half of the people in Scotland voted SNP but 56 of the 59

:17:21.:17:25.

seats went SNP. Many people in Scotland felt they were not being

:17:26.:17:30.

properly represented. There will be a lot of tactical voting in Scotland

:17:31.:17:34.

and south of the border. It's up to individuals to decide how to cast

:17:35.:17:37.

their vote. For many people, avoiding a hard Brexit is going to

:17:38.:17:43.

be a top property because they can see the chaos coming down-the-line.

:17:44.:17:48.

Damian Green talks about the coalition of chaos it's the pursuit

:17:49.:17:53.

of this hard Brexit creating chaos. The Liberal Democrats are saying

:17:54.:17:56.

this can be avoided. We have an election. It's an opportunity to

:17:57.:17:59.

vote for something else. This is the chance to send the message to

:18:00.:18:06.

Theresa May. Camilla Cavendish? I think tactical voting is perfectly

:18:07.:18:10.

democratic especially because it's the only way sometimes you can break

:18:11.:18:15.

out of the tyranny of safe seats. A lot of people feel it it is not

:18:16.:18:19.

worth voting at all. Where they live it's always been the same way. There

:18:20.:18:23.

is nothing wrong with tactical voting. I'm sure we have a coalition

:18:24.:18:27.

of chaos. It's not a coalition at all. None of you entirely agree with

:18:28.:18:33.

each other, I don't think. To go back to the lady who made the point

:18:34.:18:38.

about uncertainty. I think what most of us would value as voters is just

:18:39.:18:45.

much more clarity from each party about exactly what the choices are,

:18:46.:18:49.

both going into Brexit and coming out of it? There are some things, we

:18:50.:18:54.

don't know, because it hes a all subject to 27 other countries. I

:18:55.:18:57.

would really like to see a bit more vision beyond Brexit. What are we

:18:58.:19:02.

talking about? What are you offering. What do you want this

:19:03.:19:06.

country to look like? The man up there in the stripped jacket. Yes. I

:19:07.:19:12.

was wondering about the fact that the stated aim of Mrs May was that

:19:13.:19:18.

she wanted Parliament to come together, or Westminster to come

:19:19.:19:21.

together, because the country has come together. The country is

:19:22.:19:26.

currently very, very divided. We've got to sort that question out. Where

:19:27.:19:31.

you are saying we have to widen this beyond Brexit, yes, we do, we have

:19:32.:19:34.

to address all of those issues. We have to start addressing them in the

:19:35.:19:40.

debate rather than just saying - it's this or that along party lines.

:19:41.:19:44.

Get our heads together. It's the biggest issue that we've got. Damian

:19:45.:19:48.

Green it was the Prime Minister who said the country was united and

:19:49.:19:51.

Parliament wasn't. What is the evidence that the country is united?

:19:52.:19:56.

The country went to a vote last year and I think the thing - the most

:19:57.:20:03.

decisive thing we are hearing this evening is the constant repetition

:20:04.:20:06.

of hard Brexit and those who say - what are you about? What clarity do

:20:07.:20:11.

you want? Read the Prime Minister's Lancaster House speech in which she

:20:12.:20:15.

set out, in as much detail as you can before you go into a an

:20:16.:20:18.

negotiation what she wanted to achieve with Brexit. Which included

:20:19.:20:24.

a key phrase where she said she wanted a "close and special

:20:25.:20:27.

partnership with the European Union." The sensible position for

:20:28.:20:31.

Britain to take Camilla's point - where do we want to be at the end of

:20:32.:20:35.

this process. We will be outside the European Union. That is what the

:20:36.:20:40.

British people voted for. We obviously accept that, but obviously

:20:41.:20:44.

it's still one of our largest trading areas. They are

:20:45.:20:47.

neighbouring, friendly democracies. We want to have a close partnership

:20:48.:20:51.

with them from the outside. That doesn't mean being a member of the

:20:52.:20:57.

single market because that would involve accepting the European Court

:20:58.:21:00.

of Justice. One of the lessons we all had to take from the referendum

:21:01.:21:06.

was that that's an unacceptable interference in the democracy of

:21:07.:21:10.

this country. People wanted more control over immigration to this

:21:11.:21:13.

country, and people wanted us to have more control over our own

:21:14.:21:18.

budget. So within those perimeters what we want to do is negotiate a

:21:19.:21:23.

deal that makes trade flow as freely as possible and that it preserves

:21:24.:21:27.

our friendship and co-operation on things like security. That seems to

:21:28.:21:31.

me a very sensible and strong vision of Britain's future. If we can

:21:32.:21:34.

achieve that, we will have achieved a lot.

:21:35.:21:39.

APPLAUSE Do you expect though on the tactical

:21:40.:21:43.

voting that people who voted, who were in the 48% like you, who voted

:21:44.:21:48.

to remain will abandon the Conservative Party and go for other

:21:49.:21:52.

parties, the Liberal Democrats or Labour or in Scotland your party?

:21:53.:21:56.

No. Why the other parties - Why would they vote for you if they are

:21:57.:22:01.

against it? I was against it. As I say, I accept - the Prime Minister

:22:02.:22:05.

was against it. We accept - You have seen the polling shows that people

:22:06.:22:08.

who voted that way don't accept it. They still feel as they did. Most

:22:09.:22:12.

people haven't changed their mind very much over the year. If

:22:13.:22:17.

anything, the latest switch was that people have moved from bricks tires

:22:18.:22:25.

to remainers - 2%. It's a poll Polls are overrated. I'm struck by people

:22:26.:22:32.

assume... We saw the Trump election, we saw the referendum vote itself.

:22:33.:22:46.

We have seen polls get things wrong. (Loss of sound) The tactical voting

:22:47.:22:50.

point is - it's a free country. You can vote tactically. Have in your

:22:51.:23:00.

mind if your' voting tactically what you might wake up is Jeremy Corbyn

:23:01.:23:01.

as Prime Minister. That's not credible. Jo mentioned SNP did well

:23:02.:23:11.

not past elections on the current system. This next Parliament will be

:23:12.:23:16.

very important in terms of our rights, the environment, what kind

:23:17.:23:22.

of UK emerges from leaving the European Union. Now, I'm going to

:23:23.:23:30.

say something. It's that actually it's maybe no bad thing forcing

:23:31.:23:31.

politicians from different parties to work together. What I noticed

:23:32.:23:35.

with the Europe portfolio is I've had to and wanted to work with

:23:36.:23:38.

colleagues in the Liberal Democrats, Labour and the Green Party on areas

:23:39.:23:44.

where we agree. Keeping E. Nationals here and maintain research

:23:45.:23:47.

funding and fight against austerity. When you get one party in control,

:23:48.:23:52.

like the Tories on just 36% of the vote, you end up in a mess. Not all

:23:53.:23:58.

of us have all the answers and that's why it's good that you reach

:23:59.:24:02.

across the political aisle where you possibly can and reach agreement and

:24:03.:24:05.

Westminster needs to get better at that.

:24:06.:24:09.

APPLAUSE It's Clive's turn. Are you in favour

:24:10.:24:15.

of tactical voting? You appear to be voting tactically by not confronting

:24:16.:24:21.

Caroline Lucas The Green in Brighton? People have always voted

:24:22.:24:26.

tactically. I think the electorate understand what they want to achieve

:24:27.:24:30.

under the first-past-the-post system they can vote accordingly. Where the

:24:31.:24:36.

Green Party, they have stood down in Ealing and they may have stood down

:24:37.:24:41.

in Brighton. I applaud that. That is a grownup politics where they

:24:42.:24:45.

understand actually what is at stake here in this general election.

:24:46.:24:49.

Potentially, one of the most important general elections in the

:24:50.:24:53.

post-war period. It transcends party politics. They should be applauded

:24:54.:24:57.

for what they've done personally. As a national party, the Labour Party,

:24:58.:25:01.

understands in this election it is about Brexit and it underlice

:25:02.:25:07.

everything. -- underlies everything. It's about the future of the NHS and

:25:08.:25:12.

education and social care. There are other issues here at stake. I think

:25:13.:25:15.

people have to vote accordingly and think about that very carefully.

:25:16.:25:19.

Obviously, Norwich South people will be voting, I think many people will

:25:20.:25:22.

vote tactically. They understand after me there is a Conservative

:25:23.:25:26.

candidate who will push through Theresa May's hard Brexit. They will

:25:27.:25:30.

vote for a Labour MP and try to stop that. You praised the Liberal

:25:31.:25:34.

Democrats for not standing against the Greens. Would you like to see

:25:35.:25:41.

Labour not stand against the Greens or the Lib Demcrats in certain

:25:42.:25:44.

seats? The problem there is that the Labour Party is a national party and

:25:45.:25:48.

we stand in every seat, we always have. In the future though I think,

:25:49.:25:55.

I personally also believe in p proportional representation. We have

:25:56.:26:00.

an immature political system from the 19th Century we need to change

:26:01.:26:05.

it and give people choice in who their politicians are and it will

:26:06.:26:08.

make for better politics in this country.

:26:09.:26:11.

APPLAUSE I agree that you mentioned it's more

:26:12.:26:21.

than just Brexit. Why is he shying away? If he wanted to have that -

:26:22.:26:28.

implement it within our country why is he not voting for a general

:26:29.:26:32.

election straightaway? No, you can do what you like in a moment. There

:26:33.:26:37.

are a lot of hands up. The woman there in purple. Yes. Thank you. I

:26:38.:26:44.

just, I suppose, going back to what Damian said, I get frustrated when I

:26:45.:26:48.

hear politicians or anybody talking about the people. I think testimony

:26:49.:26:51.

testimonied and the Government are going on this grand quest to give

:26:52.:26:55.

the people what they asked for. I did vote remain, but I accept that

:26:56.:27:00.

not everyone did. But actually, in fact, the people who voted Brexit

:27:01.:27:04.

only make up 30% of the electorate. I think that people forget this and

:27:05.:27:10.

they are on an arrogant quest trying to impress these people that think

:27:11.:27:15.

that they, you know, they are trying to impress. 30% if you don't count,

:27:16.:27:19.

if you include people who didn't vote. If you include people who

:27:20.:27:24.

didn't vote. That doesn't include children. That doesn't include

:27:25.:27:28.

babies who will be affected more than people that will slope off this

:27:29.:27:33.

earth. You know. OK. One more point from you, sir, in front there. I

:27:34.:27:40.

can't understand Theresa May's position here. She's called a

:27:41.:27:45.

general election that she clearly doesn't want to participate in

:27:46.:27:48.

herself. Why do you say that? She is not wanting to do a debate. She's

:27:49.:27:55.

standing back... APPLAUSE

:27:56.:28:01.

She's standing back from doing all but minimal TV interviews. The

:28:02.:28:04.

Tories want to talk about two things, Brexit.

:28:05.:28:07.

We had a referendum on Brexit last year and the other thing they want

:28:08.:28:11.

to do is just throw abuse at Jeremy Corbyn. I haven't heard a single...

:28:12.:28:17.

APPLAUSE I haven't heard a single policy on

:28:18.:28:25.

healthcare, on education, on welfare, on immigration from the

:28:26.:28:29.

Conservatives. It's just that they want to focus on Brexit again and

:28:30.:28:32.

they want to throw mud at Jeremy Corbyn.

:28:33.:28:40.

APPLAUSE No debates. You will see an awful

:28:41.:28:46.

lot of Theresa May. She has been campaigning around the country

:28:47.:28:51.

meeting people in workplaces. (Loss of sound) There will be huge numbers

:28:52.:28:58.

of TV interviews. Here you are debating, right? There are five

:28:59.:29:07.

different opinions. If if you and I were talking to each other that is

:29:08.:29:12.

not a debate. Why won't she do a debate? Can I talk about the

:29:13.:29:16.

manifesto point. This gentleman said there are no policies. Wait for our

:29:17.:29:20.

manifesto it's coming out in 10 days' time that will satisfied your

:29:21.:29:24.

desire for policies for the future. You called the election, sure will

:29:25.:29:27.

you you should be able to get your policies out before Labour did?

:29:28.:29:30.

APPLAUSE OK. I want to make a point on this.

:29:31.:29:39.

I'm really disappointed that she's not agreed to do a TV debate because

:29:40.:29:45.

she... APPLAUSE

:29:46.:29:49.

... She's making this election partly about strong leadership. She

:29:50.:29:53.

should get out there and cut through the media. The great thing about a

:29:54.:29:57.

TV debate you are not being translated all the time by the

:29:58.:30:01.

newspapers. You can talk to the public and say Watt you think. She

:30:02.:30:07.

should take on Jeremy Corbyn and she should do that now. Why do you think

:30:08.:30:11.

she won't? The politicians will know better than me. Politicians are

:30:12.:30:16.

reluctant to put themselves in that position. Sorry. It's not the same.

:30:17.:30:22.

TV debates are not perfect, but we've now got used to them. People

:30:23.:30:26.

expect them. She is putting herself forward as a strong leared. She

:30:27.:30:30.

should have the courage to come and do it.

:30:31.:30:35.

I think there is a lack of clarity from Theresa May and I have lost

:30:36.:30:44.

confidence in the Conservative Party over the last six months. Over the

:30:45.:30:49.

Brexit negotiations. Calling this general election. I have lost all

:30:50.:30:54.

confidence in the Conservatives. Let's take one issue that may come

:30:55.:31:02.

up. Robert Harris, please. Why haven't the main political parties

:31:03.:31:07.

promised to end the rank betrayal of my generation that is the triple

:31:08.:31:09.

lock on pensions? APPLAUSE

:31:10.:31:14.

In other words, you think pensioners are benefiting at your expense?

:31:15.:31:23.

It makes perfect sense to link pensions to average earnings, to

:31:24.:31:27.

inflation. It makes no sense to commit to a minimum annual increase

:31:28.:31:32.

of 2.5% regardless of what is going on in the economy, producing a

:31:33.:31:35.

constant ratcheting up of costs, at a time when the average pensioner

:31:36.:31:40.

household is better off than the average working household. It is my

:31:41.:31:44.

generation that has to foot the bill and has to wait longer and longer to

:31:45.:31:47.

receive our pensions as the Government tries to keep the cost of

:31:48.:31:52.

pensions under control. Do you anticipate it may be dropped in the

:31:53.:31:56.

Tory manifesto? I hope so, we will hear from Damian Green. He is the

:31:57.:32:03.

boss of this bit. It has no logic, no basis in equity and is a cynical

:32:04.:32:07.

attempt to attract a certain demographic and needs to be

:32:08.:32:11.

scrapped. You are just out for the old vote, Damian Green. I think that

:32:12.:32:17.

is not fair and can I break the rules by being nonpartisan for a bit

:32:18.:32:23.

rest room at to put into perspective, first of all, young

:32:24.:32:25.

people will grow old and want a decent pension system one day. This

:32:26.:32:29.

dichotomy of either you care about the old all the young, that is

:32:30.:32:34.

wrong. More importantly, the triple lock and the action on pensions

:32:35.:32:41.

taken over the last 30 years by all parties, not just my party, but when

:32:42.:32:45.

we were in coalition with the Lib Dems, and before that with other

:32:46.:32:51.

parties in government, has meant a tremendous reduction in pensioner

:32:52.:32:56.

poverty in this country. In the 1970s and 1980s, 40% of pensioners

:32:57.:33:00.

in this country lived in poverty. That was disgraceful. We have got

:33:01.:33:05.

that figure right down to 14%. Still too high, there is more to do, but

:33:06.:33:10.

that is a completely unrecorded huge social achievement in this country.

:33:11.:33:15.

We have done an awful lot in a generation to get rid of pensioner

:33:16.:33:18.

poverty and we should be proud of that. Let him just answer you.

:33:19.:33:24.

Robert Harris. That is absolutely true and it is crucially important

:33:25.:33:29.

to reduce pensioner poverty but the average pensioner household now is

:33:30.:33:32.

better off than the average working household, so there is a trade-off

:33:33.:33:38.

between the two. The current system, when you commit, regardless of what

:33:39.:33:41.

is happening in the economy, has to be unfair. With all the spec, I

:33:42.:33:48.

think the Waspy women in this country would disagree on that. I am

:33:49.:33:54.

proud that pensioners are given a decent pension. They have worked

:33:55.:34:00.

their lives and they deserve to be looked after and I think it is right

:34:01.:34:03.

and proper that the triple lock is there and Labour have said we will

:34:04.:34:06.

guarantee that. I think that is the right thing to do. Rather than

:34:07.:34:11.

playing the older generation against the younger generation, politicians

:34:12.:34:14.

should be saying, how do we tackle those with vast amounts of wealth.

:34:15.:34:18.

We are one of the most unequal countries in the Western world. I

:34:19.:34:22.

know where I would be looking to make sure that pensioners have the

:34:23.:34:25.

money they need to live decently and that young people have opportunities

:34:26.:34:29.

and chances in life. That is by tackling those with the most wealth.

:34:30.:34:32.

There are far too many people with far too much wealth in this country

:34:33.:34:36.

and a future Labour government would equal that out and make a fairer

:34:37.:34:39.

society that works for all. APPLAUSE

:34:40.:34:44.

I have a lot of sympathy with the questioner, but I have a piece of

:34:45.:34:51.

advice as well, which is that his generation needs to get out and

:34:52.:34:54.

vote, and they will find that they lot of the benefits.

:34:55.:35:00.

Accruing to them. That's a very cynical view. You mean that if his

:35:01.:35:06.

lot voted, he would change his mind. Many of the benefits that accrue to

:35:07.:35:10.

pensioners are because we almost pensioners get out and vote. Have

:35:11.:35:13.

you decided whether you will keep the triple lock? Wait for our

:35:14.:35:20.

manifesto. I asked if you have decided. Everything is under

:35:21.:35:26.

discussion and I will not discuss the process of the manifesto either.

:35:27.:35:30.

I would love to do this, but I am afraid we will release our manifesto

:35:31.:35:33.

when we release our manifesto and you will see it then. It sounds like

:35:34.:35:39.

Robert will be happy with the Conservative manifesto on this, but

:35:40.:35:43.

probably less happy with my answer. It was the Lib Dems who brought

:35:44.:35:47.

forward the triple lock, our policy made it into the coalition agreement

:35:48.:35:52.

and we delivered, because over a period of many years the state

:35:53.:35:55.

pension had fallen so far behind what average working households were

:35:56.:35:59.

taking home. Pensioners will remember the insult under the Labour

:36:00.:36:04.

government of the 75p per week rise. It was clear that something had to

:36:05.:36:08.

be done about that. I think making sure there is dignity in retirement

:36:09.:36:12.

is important. I think there are arguments about what you can do

:36:13.:36:17.

about very excessive tax relief from high rate tax relief for people

:36:18.:36:22.

putting into pension pots. But the basic state pension is about dignity

:36:23.:36:27.

in retirement. So I don't think the Conservatives dithering on this is

:36:28.:36:32.

actually helpful. But you are right to talk about working age people to,

:36:33.:36:37.

because this is not just about one end of the age spectrum. What we

:36:38.:36:41.

have seen under this Government have been frankly cruel cuts in welfare

:36:42.:36:44.

on people who are struggling to make ends meet, going out and working

:36:45.:36:49.

hard. These are, frankly, the cuts we spent five years in coalition is

:36:50.:36:53.

stopping them making. We vetoed the ?12 billion of cuts, the tax credits

:36:54.:37:00.

and the universal credit. You really should be thinking twice when you

:37:01.:37:04.

are having to get officials to design an eight page form for

:37:05.:37:07.

mothers who have experienced sexual assault and are in distress, to

:37:08.:37:12.

fill-in to affirm that their child is the product of rape, in order to

:37:13.:37:16.

make sure that they can get enough money to feed their children. When

:37:17.:37:21.

you are having to design a form like that, you know your policy is wrong.

:37:22.:37:23.

APPLAUSE The workplace pension scheme was

:37:24.:37:34.

brought in, ably and idea to help young people build up a pension for

:37:35.:37:39.

later in life. 7.5 million people are now using it.

:37:40.:37:46.

It is a great success. On the triple lock pension, this is where I would

:37:47.:37:50.

respectfully disagree. Those who would be impacted when the Tories go

:37:51.:37:53.

ahead with their plans to cut that, like so many things, will not be the

:37:54.:37:58.

richest pensioners, but actually the poorest pensioners, those struggling

:37:59.:38:01.

to make ends meet. This is where we see disgraceful practices. It is

:38:02.:38:07.

like the Waspy women, pension inequality, these are women for whom

:38:08.:38:11.

it makes a big difference. Not being told you're pensioners being cut.

:38:12.:38:15.

People were planning for their pensions for a long time, and the

:38:16.:38:18.

Waspy women have a point and that is the sort of area where we should be

:38:19.:38:21.

pulling together and giving the quality they deserve. You have the

:38:22.:38:26.

power to do that in Scotland, the government can do that. If you

:38:27.:38:30.

really cared and did not just want to whinge, you would do something

:38:31.:38:34.

about it. I keep hearing this from the Tories. It is like the rape

:38:35.:38:39.

clause that Jo Swinson brought up, it is a disgrace. We keep hearing

:38:40.:38:44.

that we can sort it out. That affects everybody. The Scottish

:38:45.:38:48.

Government has put ?300 million into offsetting some of the worst

:38:49.:38:52.

decisions made by a Tory government, by getting rid of the bedroom tax.

:38:53.:39:03.

Do it. What was your point? The Scottish Government, which likes to

:39:04.:39:07.

complain about the fact that the pension age has been equalised,

:39:08.:39:10.

which is sensible and was actually done as far back as 1995, but you

:39:11.:39:16.

make a big issue of this. But you know that you have the power in

:39:17.:39:21.

Scotland, if you say Scottish women of a certain age deserve higher

:39:22.:39:24.

pensions, you could pay those pensions. You would much prefer to

:39:25.:39:28.

whinge about it then do something about it. Women were told they would

:39:29.:39:35.

receive pensions by certain dates, and they did not. It is an absolute

:39:36.:39:39.

disgrace. And the Scottish Government has been going through

:39:40.:39:44.

times on the bedroom tax, cleaning up your mess. Do it. Do it! If I am

:39:45.:39:51.

hearing him right, use -- he says you could do something about

:39:52.:39:56.

pensions but you choose not to. Well...

:39:57.:39:57.

APPLAUSE The Scottish Government has had its

:39:58.:40:06.

budget cut by ?2.9 billion. On the rape clause, do you know what

:40:07.:40:10.

the Tory answer was, it shouldn't matter, you can just offset that.

:40:11.:40:16.

Why don't we just vote against the rate clause and get rid of it at

:40:17.:40:19.

Westminster and it solves the problem for the body in the UK. The

:40:20.:40:26.

young man who asked the question over here, there is a young man

:40:27.:40:34.

there. What is your view? I would like to agree with Clive and also Jo

:40:35.:40:39.

Swinson and Stephen to an extent. Since 2010, the number of people

:40:40.:40:42.

relying on food banks has gone up from tens of thousands of two

:40:43.:40:46.

millions. The number of rough sleepers has doubled. Everyone knows

:40:47.:40:50.

Oxford has a huge homelessness problem, a huge number of people,

:40:51.:40:53.

the most marginalised in society, and if you talk to them, they

:40:54.:40:57.

include pensioners, but also young people. The fact is, making it an

:40:58.:41:02.

intergenerational conflict ignores the point of huge wealth

:41:03.:41:05.

inequalities in our country and the fact that no one is talking about

:41:06.:41:06.

that. APPLAUSE

:41:07.:41:14.

Camilla Cavendish. Robert, how old are you? So you

:41:15.:41:21.

basically have student debt, you are having to pay rent, you will

:41:22.:41:24.

probably have how many more years before you can get on the housing

:41:25.:41:30.

ladder? Too many personal questions. I wasn't sure. I think I agree with

:41:31.:41:36.

you. These are really difficult decisions. The triple lock, at 2.5%,

:41:37.:41:45.

is unsustainable, given all the other demands on public spending.

:41:46.:41:48.

And there is a younger generation that are having to bear enormous

:41:49.:41:55.

burdens of debt and cuts. And I actually think, I know a lot of

:41:56.:41:59.

pensioners have suffered from low interest rates, people who are

:42:00.:42:02.

dependent on savings have suffered since the financial crisis. But if

:42:03.:42:05.

we move to a double lock, which would still index the pension to

:42:06.:42:10.

wages and prices, we would not get rid of that, it would still be

:42:11.:42:14.

indexed, giving some guarantee, that would be fairer. I think we have to

:42:15.:42:19.

move on, because 40 minutes have gone.

:42:20.:42:24.

We're in Wigan next week, and the week after

:42:25.:42:26.

A question from Rosanna Mills, please. With tensions rising, should

:42:27.:42:46.

we be more concerned about Kim Jong Un, or Donald Trump. Who is more

:42:47.:42:56.

concerning? Can't we be concerned about both of them? One thing that

:42:57.:43:02.

strikes me, and I heard Boris Johnson raise a good point today,

:43:03.:43:07.

trying to give the US government carte blanche over how they deal

:43:08.:43:16.

with Syria. Syria and North Korea are extraordinarily complicated

:43:17.:43:18.

international situations and I am not sure Boris Johnson is the best

:43:19.:43:21.

person to be dealing with them as far as I'm concerned, but there you

:43:22.:43:25.

go. These are horribly, catered situations whereby simply advocating

:43:26.:43:28.

military action all the time does not work. -- these are horribly

:43:29.:43:36.

complicated situations. The conflict in Syria has been going on for six

:43:37.:43:41.

years. That should shame all of us. That is not that far-away. That is

:43:42.:43:45.

why we have a refugee crisis at the moment, when we have Tories trying

:43:46.:43:49.

to block people out of the country, because we have a mess in Syria, and

:43:50.:43:54.

a mess we caused in Libya as well, which is costing lives. This should

:43:55.:43:59.

be the concern of each and every one of us, but that requires investment,

:44:00.:44:03.

investment in international development, and I am afraid that is

:44:04.:44:07.

over decades, in terms of investment, and I don't have a huge

:44:08.:44:11.

amount of confidence that, as this government is focused solely on

:44:12.:44:15.

dragging us out of the European Union, it will have the wherewithal

:44:16.:44:18.

to start tackling these problems sensibly. You are answering a

:44:19.:44:22.

serious question but a different one from the one that was asked, which

:44:23.:44:27.

was about North Korea. No reason for you not to talk about Syria. Do you

:44:28.:44:31.

think from your point of view that we should take part if the Americans

:44:32.:44:37.

ask us, in bombing Syria? Just because the Americans ask you to

:44:38.:44:41.

bomb somebody, no, I don't think you should go and bomb them. You have a

:44:42.:44:45.

situation in Syria which is multipolar, with troops from

:44:46.:44:50.

different countries on the ground and a competitive situation. A few

:44:51.:44:57.

years ago we were asked to bomb one side and last year to bomb another

:44:58.:45:00.

side. Maybe the answer is not bombing people, but bringing people

:45:01.:45:04.

round a table to talk about it and investing. We have invested in

:45:05.:45:10.

Bosnia over the past 25 years, and it is only now, after that decades

:45:11.:45:14.

long commitment to that country, that you are seeing some progress

:45:15.:45:17.

towards the European Union. Ironically, we are encouraging them

:45:18.:45:21.

to join the European Union just as we turn our backs on it. Let me drag

:45:22.:45:28.

us back to North Korea, Clive Lewis. The differences between Donald Trump

:45:29.:45:31.

and Kim Jong Un are quite a few but as far as I know it, Kim Jong Un is

:45:32.:45:36.

not waiting with his knife in full to take over the NHS. With his

:45:37.:45:41.

corporate colleagues in the United States, if we get the hard Brexit

:45:42.:45:46.

that Damian Green and Theresa May want to see. To draw it back to

:45:47.:45:50.

foreign policy, on the issue of North Korea, I am unhappy that we

:45:51.:45:54.

have someone like Donald Trump, a thin individual in the White House,

:45:55.:45:57.

on a hair trigger issue with North Korea. I think we need a government,

:45:58.:46:02.

a Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister prepared not just to suck

:46:03.:46:05.

up to the United States but to stand up to them. If you look at Syria, I

:46:06.:46:11.

think many people, when they saw what happened in Syria, understood

:46:12.:46:15.

that something very nasty, very bad happened. I understand people wanted

:46:16.:46:18.

to do something and I get that because that is what the British

:46:19.:46:22.

people are like. They embrace justice. But there are two things.

:46:23.:46:27.

First, there was no evidence. Chilcot taught us important lessons

:46:28.:46:31.

about evidence. I imagine it was him but I have not seen the evidence.

:46:32.:46:35.

Second, there is no strategy. You have religious wars across the

:46:36.:46:39.

Middle East, 15 years of the war on terror that has cost trillions and

:46:40.:46:42.

hundreds of thousands of lives and nothing has happened so far. In

:46:43.:46:46.

terms of international law, if you are going to bomb a country, after

:46:47.:46:51.

the Second World War we said as a nation, we got together and said

:46:52.:46:54.

having big, unilateral decisions made by big players on the world

:46:55.:46:59.

stage does not end well. It ended in the Second World War. We want the

:47:00.:47:02.

rule of law. If you want to look other countries in the eye, you have

:47:03.:47:06.

to operate within the rule of law. That means what Donald Trump did on

:47:07.:47:09.

Syria, although we might like it because we think it feels good, it

:47:10.:47:15.

set a bad precedent. We need to go through international institutions

:47:16.:47:17.

because that is what the rule of law is about and we have always said we

:47:18.:47:22.

believe in. How confident are you about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on

:47:23.:47:25.

this issue, because you resigned as Shadow Defence Secretary? So now you

:47:26.:47:33.

are supporting him for this on an issue like this, a serious issue,

:47:34.:47:37.

Syria, North Korea and what happens there.

:47:38.:47:41.

Is No I didn't resign. You were kicked out? I was shifted over.

:47:42.:47:49.

Because you took the wrong line. I knew what the policy was on Trident.

:47:50.:47:54.

I read the autocue. I was aware of what the policy was. The world needs

:47:55.:47:57.

more people like Jeremy Corbyn. There is a lot of brinkmanship going

:47:58.:48:02.

on at the moment. And, quite frankly, when I heard the Defence

:48:03.:48:07.

Secretary boasting about how he would launch a first-strike, a first

:48:08.:48:11.

nuclear strike on another country, in a matter of way. What does it

:48:12.:48:16.

come to in politics when a politician gets to boast about the

:48:17.:48:27.

fact he is prepared to launch a first-strike on innocent civilians.

:48:28.:48:32.

One of the most dangerous things about Donald Trump is the fact that

:48:33.:48:36.

his opinions and his morals are reaching people all over the world

:48:37.:48:42.

and they're not particularly respectable morals, especially

:48:43.:48:45.

towards women, for instance. I think it's truly disgusting his comments

:48:46.:48:51.

towards women and about them, and why aren't our politicians doing

:48:52.:48:54.

more to stand up against that and say - no, this is wrong. We are

:48:55.:49:00.

being left to JK Rowling to tweet and call him up on it. Why aren't

:49:01.:49:05.

the people leading our country standing up against him? Damian

:49:06.:49:10.

Green? The last time I was on Question Time was just after he made

:49:11.:49:14.

some of his terrible wrong remarks and I said so at the time. So I'm

:49:15.:49:19.

more than happy to repeat that. Come on, let's get a sense of perspective

:49:20.:49:22.

here. It the sounds like, if you listen to the last ten minutes of

:49:23.:49:26.

discussion, that Donald Trump is worse than Kim Jong-un. He's a

:49:27.:49:30.

democratically-elected leader of a country where, as he is discovering,

:49:31.:49:34.

there is the rule of law. There are independent institutions that mean

:49:35.:49:38.

that any American President has to obey the law. And America is a

:49:39.:49:43.

friendly democracy and the idea that in anyway you can equate that. Let

:49:44.:49:48.

us take the question seriously. Who should we distrust more. Kim Jong-un

:49:49.:49:55.

is a dictator at the head of one of the world's most mad regimes that

:49:56.:50:00.

has starved many of its own people and is trying hard to develop a

:50:01.:50:06.

nuclear capacity with which it wants to threaten its neighbours. There is

:50:07.:50:10.

no equation there. Stephen raises the important point of Syria. Any

:50:11.:50:15.

British Government would look at individual situations as they

:50:16.:50:18.

develop. It is perfectly possible, it seems to me, that Assad is evil

:50:19.:50:24.

enough to use chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of his own

:50:25.:50:28.

citizens if he thought they would get away with it. Frankly if British

:50:29.:50:33.

or western military power was used to save those tens of thousands of

:50:34.:50:36.

lives I would think that was the morally right thing to do.

:50:37.:50:39.

APPLAUSE Jo Swinson. Clearly, without doubt,

:50:40.:50:47.

the North Korean regime is horrific and a, but I think there is a

:50:48.:50:51.

difference in terms 67 actually how much global power the American

:50:52.:50:55.

President and Kim Jong-un have got in the world. That is what makes me

:50:56.:51:00.

so worried about President Donald Trump. We have been used to a

:51:01.:51:04.

situation where America has helped to keep the world order, has been a

:51:05.:51:09.

very positive role in world affairs. We now have this very unstable

:51:10.:51:14.

situation where people can't predict what the President is likely to do.

:51:15.:51:19.

I think this issue really does boil down to international law because,

:51:20.:51:23.

actually, the chemical weapon attack in Syria was one that I do think

:51:24.:51:28.

required a response. I think we have that line in the sand very clearly

:51:29.:51:32.

drawn since after the First World War that chemical weapon attacks are

:51:33.:51:36.

absolutely unacceptable. What worried me about it was that it

:51:37.:51:40.

unilateral action. It wasn't done through the international community.

:51:41.:51:43.

It wasn't as if the approaches were tried. It was just done unilaterally

:51:44.:51:49.

by President Trump. That is worrying. When I hear our Foreign

:51:50.:51:53.

Secretary saying it would be hard to say no, I get Sinn Feiners because I

:51:54.:51:56.

know what it's been like in the past when we have acted as America's

:51:57.:52:00.

poodle in terms of military affairs in the world. I marched against the

:52:01.:52:04.

Iraq war in 2003. We don't want to go back to that situation. There

:52:05.:52:09.

might be circumstances where such as to prevent chemical weapon attacks

:52:10.:52:12.

you might be able to have that discussion. It needs to be done

:52:13.:52:15.

through those proper international channels and to have the Foreign

:52:16.:52:19.

Secretary, you know, coming out with - looking up his thee saw suss for

:52:20.:52:26.

medieval insults for the Leader of the Labour Party and blindly saying

:52:27.:52:28.

it would be hard to say no to President Trump. I find that

:52:29.:52:36.

absolutely terrifying. Plagues plus One more question in. If you can be

:52:37.:52:39.

brief on this one that would be a help. It's a great question. Kim and

:52:40.:52:46.

Trump are unpredictable. There is a horrifying similarity. We are at

:52:47.:52:50.

this bizarre stage of history, aren't we? Trump is

:52:51.:52:53.

democratically-elected and leads a country which has long been our ally

:52:54.:52:58.

and it is still an ally even if it's led by somebody who many of us feel

:52:59.:53:03.

uncomfortable with. I don't agree that North Korea and Syria is

:53:04.:53:10.

similarly complex. I'm concerned about the statements about investing

:53:11.:53:13.

in international development for Syria. Syria is in total crisis.

:53:14.:53:18.

Tens of thousands 678 people are dying. In 2013 President Obama

:53:19.:53:22.

backed away from his red line when he thought Assad had used chemical

:53:23.:53:27.

weapon because the British didn't support action. Obama used that as

:53:28.:53:31.

an excuse not to confront Assad. I do actually think that the use of

:53:32.:53:35.

chemical weapons is horrendous and it has to be, I'm afraid, a red

:53:36.:53:43.

line. North Korea is an abomination. That is the best way to deal with

:53:44.:53:48.

it. It weighs on the Lib Dem and your watch watch. On Libya we spent

:53:49.:53:54.

as much bombing it on reconstruction afterwards under your watch. It laid

:53:55.:54:00.

to a failed state which leads to the problems in the Mediterranean today

:54:01.:54:05.

exasperating the humanitarian crisis. Simon Warren can we have

:54:06.:54:19.

your question? Is it right for Theresa May to maintain the foreign

:54:20.:54:23.

aid budget? We have three minutes left. Is she right to maintain that

:54:24.:54:28.

when the NHS and other places need additional funding? You go on this.

:54:29.:54:31.

We have to be quite swift on it. Yes, she is. I think ultimately,

:54:32.:54:37.

it's like the pensioners against young people. It's not a choice in

:54:38.:54:43.

playing our party we have a better, fairer world where developing

:54:44.:54:45.

nations. Many of these countries ares countries where many people in

:54:46.:54:48.

this audience and at home have come from. Our country has benefitted

:54:49.:54:52.

very much throughout its history from the developing world and

:54:53.:54:55.

Empire. What we are doing here is part of that long-term strategy. We

:54:56.:54:58.

are making sure these countries can come up and join the developed world

:54:59.:55:05.

and actually stop poverty, top stop those things which can create

:55:06.:55:08.

terrorism. The 0.7% is right and proper. We can afford both that and

:55:09.:55:13.

to have a decently funded public services like the NHS. Do you agree

:55:14.:55:18.

with that, Camilla? APPLAUSE

:55:19.:55:21.

I started my career as an aid worker. I have a lot of friends

:55:22.:55:27.

still in aid. I believe aid can do absolutely marvellous things. I also

:55:28.:55:32.

believe having a fixed budget is a recipe for some misuse of funds

:55:33.:55:35.

because the agencies know they've got the money and they don't always

:55:36.:55:38.

spend it wisely. We need to, I'm afraid, we need to get an awful lot

:55:39.:55:44.

better at spending it. OK. Thank you for being brief. Jo, be brief, too.

:55:45.:55:49.

We can't go for more than two minutes? We should maintain it. For

:55:50.:55:55.

?100 this country has in wealth it's spending 70p. We have that

:55:56.:55:59.

responsibility more broadly as well as within our own country. I'm proud

:56:00.:56:03.

it was my Liberal Democratic colleague who brought in the Bill to

:56:04.:56:08.

to force the Government to stick to the 0.7% every year. What do you

:56:09.:56:12.

think? Charity begins at home. ?12 billion is a lot of money every week

:56:13.:56:17.

you are hearing about crisis after crisis in the NHS. ?12 billion? We

:56:18.:56:25.

need more in the NHS. We don't need to export it to other countries. I'm

:56:26.:56:30.

glad there is so much consensus. The Prime Minister has said we will

:56:31.:56:34.

stick. Not consensus from him. Around here. I think you are quite

:56:35.:56:37.

right, charity begins at home. Charity doesn't need to end at home

:56:38.:56:41.

Wen can afford. We can continue to afford to put the extra money, we

:56:42.:56:45.

are putting it into the NHS and other public services, only because

:56:46.:56:47.

we have a strong enough economy to do that. That's one of the key

:56:48.:56:53.

questions facing this country over the next few weeks is - do we want

:56:54.:56:57.

to preserve the strong economy that allows us to do these good and

:56:58.:57:00.

generous things or do you want to put it at risk? This is about the

:57:01.:57:09.

kind of country we want to be. We have international obligations we

:57:10.:57:12.

should have. It's a good use of money and a fraction of the amount

:57:13.:57:16.

of money we are about to spend on weapons of mass destruction. There

:57:17.:57:19.

is a clear choice there. APPLAUSE

:57:20.:57:20.

OK. You have ten seconds the man at the

:57:21.:57:27.

back. You have been trying to get in. Thank you very much. My arm has

:57:28.:57:30.

been dying all evening. It's well and good to have a foreign aid

:57:31.:57:32.

budget. You mentioned that we might be a

:57:33.:57:36.

poodle in the face of America. One way we maintain our stayed status as

:57:37.:57:42.

a world power is by having an effective nuclear deterrent. I can't

:57:43.:57:45.

see us remaining a serious world power as long as Jeremy Corbyn is

:57:46.:57:48.

potentially going to be Prime Minister and get rid of the whole

:57:49.:57:52.

lot. All right. APPLAUSE

:57:53.:57:56.

You raised something we didn't get to. We do have to to stop. Our hour

:57:57.:58:06.

is up. We're in Wigan next week

:58:07.:58:08.

with, among others, the Shadow Chief Secretary

:58:09.:58:12.

to the Treasury, Rebecca Long Bailey and the Leader of Plaid Cymru,

:58:13.:58:15.

Leanne Wood, on our panel. The week after we'll

:58:16.:58:17.

be in Edinburgh. To come and take part

:58:18.:58:19.

in our audience in Wigan or Edinburgh go to our website

:58:20.:58:21.

or call 0330 123 99 88. If you are listening tonight

:58:22.:58:24.

on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes My thankses to that panel and all of

:58:25.:58:36.

you who came here to the Union Building in Oxford. Until next

:58:37.:58:40.

Thursday, from Question Time, good night.

:58:41.:58:48.

This is all Roz, she's trying to frame me!

:58:49.:59:12.

This is the final push, we cannot fail.

:59:13.:59:17.

He sent you, didn't he? Are you expecting someone else?

:59:18.:59:20.

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Oxford. On the panel are Conservative work and pensions secretary Damian Green, Labour MP Clive Lewis, Liberal Democrat minister Jo Swinson, the SNP's Europe spokesman Stephen Gethins, and the journalist and member of the House of Lords Camilla Cavendish.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS