18/05/2017 Question Time


18/05/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Norwich, with Priti Patel, Angela Rayner, Vince Cable, Jonathan Bartley and former Daily Telegraph editor Charles Moore.


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Transcript


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Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Norwich.

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And on our panel here tonight, the Conservative cabinet minister

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in charge of international development, Priti Patel.

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Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, Angela Rayner.

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The Liberal Democrats' former Business Secretary, Vince Cable.

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The joint leader of the Green Party, Jonathan Bartley.

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And the journalist and Margaret Thatcher's

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authorised biographer, Charles Moore.

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Thank you.

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Remember, if you want to get stuck in at home into these arguments,

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Let's have our first question which comes from Jason Dyer, please.

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Thank you, David.

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I would like to know, ask the panel, after paying taxes

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all your working life, do you think it is fair that

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you have to sell your family home to pay for the care?

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Is it fair you have to sell your family home to pay for your care

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costs in the manifesto today?

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Priti Patel, is it fair?

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Well, it's not fair, and that's not what we are proposing.

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We are very clear in terms of the fact that we need

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to take some decisions now, long-term decisions about how

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we look to the future and address the ageing population and the needs

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of social care.

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So what we are saying is that we will put in place now

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this ability and the safeguard of ?100,000 so people can

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still keep their house, they don't have to sell their house,

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but they are protected now in terms of their long-term care costs.

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And that applies to people that are having residential care,

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so in care homes, as well as those that now have care at home as well.

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Whereas previously the focus was only on those that went

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into care home settings.

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Isn't it what you use to call the death tax,

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when Labour suggested something very like it?

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I think Labour were proposing something totally different

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which was a tax on all assets, property, carte blanche.

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We have been clearer about having this ?100,000 level, which,

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you know, makes it very clear that people don't have

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to sell their homes.

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They can stay in their homes and they can keep their properties.

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But their children have to sell them.

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Well, there is obviously a position afterwards

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in terms of whether or not, it's family members, effectively.

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OK, Vince Cable.

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Well, Priti's completely wrong.

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I mean, there is no cap on the amount of money

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that you have to pay.

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If you contract one of these degenerative diseases, dementia,

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or some other complicated matter, that involves very, very large

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expenditure on social care, there is no limit

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to what you have to pay.

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There is a crucial difference between what this Government

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is proposing, and what we agreed under the coalition.

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We said under the coalition that there should be a cap, ?75,000.

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We agreed it was in the legislation and the government have pulled it.

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And what happens now, it's a lottery.

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If you grow old without ill health problems and then

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perhaps die quickly, there aren't big social care bills.

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If you are one of those unfortunate people that have these degenerative

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conditions over a long period of time, you have massive social

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care bills, it's surely fair that society should protect you.

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And that's why we talked about having a cap to the amount

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of social care pay levels.

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Under the Government's proposal, that is withdrawn.

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It is a wicked lottery.

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And there's a lot of hypocrisy in this because in the last year

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or so, the Tories introduced, they cut inheritance tax.

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Supposedly to help people pass on property to their children.

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But what will now happen is that if you are one of those unfortunate

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people who has got unlimited care costs, you will be paying

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100% inheritance tax.

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All of your family savings will disappear.

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It is a lottery, it is grossly unfair and it is a big step

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backwards from where we were a few years ago.

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APPLAUSE

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Charles Moore.

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Well, I'm not sure if the Government's proposal

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is necessarily right but I actually do think that it is not wrong

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to have to use your house to help fund your care.

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And it is particularly true if you are reasonably well off,

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which obviously a large number of, though by no means all,

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house owners are.

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I don't understand why your house has to be treated

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completely separate away from any other possession.

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I notice in the Conservative manifesto it says "one purpose

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of long-term saving is to cover needs in old age".

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That is a fair point.

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It is.

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And we ought to think about that.

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And that is an important thing you have to work out.

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If you don't follow the rule, then what happens is that the Government

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is paying out huge care bills to people who actually have

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quite a lot of money, because they have these houses.

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Many people nowadays have a house worth ?400,000, that sort of thing.

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And if that's totally protected, and the Government has to subsidise

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them, then the subsidy, that subsidy is harder to find for

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people who actually really need it.

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I notice one thing the Tories are trying to do in all of this,

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not just about care, they are trying to focus all kinds

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of social help on where need is.

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They are trying to get rid of this idea that everybody can get it.

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This is going to annoy a lot of Tory voters,

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because as a matter of fact a lot of Tory voters are quite used

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to being quite well off and getting quite a lot of government money

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for one thing and another.

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And what Mrs May is doing, because she is talking

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about the "just about managing" people, she is trying to focus

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on them, who were historically considered perhaps more

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Labour voters.

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She is thinking they are actually going to really need care much more

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than a lot of the people who get it automatically.

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So that's the thinking.

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And as a broad point, it's reasonable.

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APPLAUSE

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Angela Rayner.

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Well, it's clear to me that the Conservatives have replaced

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the triple lock with a triple whammy for pensioners,

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if I am quite honest.

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The winter fuel allowance, the issues around pension cuts,

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and now this issue around what we are dubbing

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the dementia tax.

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And I'm pretty cross about this.

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I'm cross about it because what led me into Parliament was being a home

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help and looking after people in their own homes.

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And they were told, do the right thing all your life, work hard.

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They bought their homes in good faith, they saved

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in their pensions in good faith, and they are having it

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stolen away from them, whether it is women born

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in the 1950s, the Waspy women, having their pensions stolen.

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Now they are saying they are going to take your assets

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as well in your home.

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It doesn't have to be like that.

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It's a disgrace.

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And it's the actual deprived areas, Charles, that are facing

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the most significant cuts through council cuts.

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In my constituency of Ashton-under-Lyne,

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Oldham and Tameside councillors, half of their budget is cut

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under the Conservatives, which has affected those very same

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people they are saying they are trying to help.

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It is vicious, it's nasty and it's not the way to run our services.

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APPLAUSE

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We are protecting people's assets.

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It is right that people save.

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We are a country that saves, and people do

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save and accumulate their assets, but we are protecting

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people's assets.

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You wait until they die and then you're going to snatch it from them.

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So what is Labour's solution then?

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You are going to snatch it from them.

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We are taking a long-term approach to social care provision.

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It is not sustainable, Angela, to carry on in the way

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in which we are doing so right now.

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You are cutting taxes to the rich, you have cut corporation tax to 17%,

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you've cut capital gains tax.

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And that helps to grow the economy and grow jobs.

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No, it doesn't.

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Margaret Thatcher's level was at 33%.

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We are at 17%.

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We can pay for our older relatives.

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We don't need to be this way.

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Angela, you listed among other things the winter fuel payment

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being abolished but that was in your manifesto in 2015 for

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the better off, wasn't it?

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Well, if you look at our manifesto that we've put forward...

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No, in 2015 when you were elected, it said you would stop paying winter

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fuel payments to the richest.

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But I'm talking about our manifesto that we are standing on today.

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So you've given that up then.

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Well, we are looking at our manifesto now.

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If you look at the Conservatives' manifesto, they are cutting

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all of their promises to older people of this country.

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Whereas our manifesto says we will look after everybody.

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It's about a choice.

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How are you going to pay for that?

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What sort of society do you want to live in?

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One where they attack the poor, the disabled, the pensioners?

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Or do you want one where they cut corporation tax to the richest?

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It is ensuring that valuable public money goes to people

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that actually need this, and that is the purpose of why

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we are making the changes to winter fuel payments,

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so it goes to those that need the help.

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There's no real point in a system, Angela,

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in which David Dimbleby and Vince Cable, to mention

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two people who are slightly getting on in years,

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could get the winter fuel allowance.

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Why should they?

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It's just ridiculous waste of public money.

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Angela, I'm going to stop you because you've said quite a lot.

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Well, they are asking me.

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I'm saying that when you are means testing, you are not

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making any savings.

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I will come back to you.

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Jonathan Bartley.

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I want to answer your question, Jason.

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Let's back up a little bit.

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When the NHS was set up, and the NHS is very close to social care,

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they have knock-on effects to one another, it was set up

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with the principle that we don't know what the future

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is going to hold.

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And therefore, as a society, collectively, we will make

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the provision that if someone does need ten years social care,

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if they do need a major operation, or if they are healthy and lucky

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enough to have a very long life of health,

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they should all have the security.

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And that should be funded by all of us, not singling out

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individuals and breaking that social contract between us.

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Now the Conservatives are breaking that social contract.

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They are piling pressure on the individual.

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APPLAUSE

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We are not doing that.

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We should also be clear about what the context is.

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This is not coming about because we suddenly have an ageing population.

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This social care crisis is because we've had chronic

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cuts and underfunding at the local authority level.

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APPLAUSE

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37% cuts to local authority, a ?4.6 billion deficit in social care.

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And that is why we are now getting that move.

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Where would you get the money from?

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Everybody agrees there have been cutbacks.

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We could just go back to reverse what the Conservatives

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have done since 2010.

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We have ?122 billion not going into the public purse

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because of cuts to corporation tax, because of giving tax

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breaks to the richest 50%.

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Let me hear from some of the audience.

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The man in the pink shirt.

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Hello.

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I think people may be inclined to agree and accept the rise

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to ?100,000 if the social care was adequate, and it isn't.

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My father's been ill for 11 years, bedridden for four.

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The social care gets carers coming in.

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He's had to change them seven times in the last two years

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because the standards are very low, the staff have turnover,

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they are unprofessional, he is left in squalor and they can't

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save and maintain their own house because they're spending

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all the bills on the care.

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And he's worked all his life.

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He's paying for the care but you don't think

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the care is good enough.

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Because he has a Parkinson type syndrome, he's not entitled

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to have the care paid.

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If he had cancer, he would be fully entitled to have his care paid for.

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Are you saying the actual quality of care he gets is not adequate?

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It's not up to standard.

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I'm a nurse myself, and that is how I judge.

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The woman there.

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I work in the Millennium Library here in Norwich,

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which is the busiest, a very good library, in Britain.

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And we see what the cuts have done every day to the people that

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are coming into the library, and I feel very strongly.

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I think Angela is absolutely right.

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The cuts, we've absolutely been cut to the bone.

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And now Theresa May is attacking the pensions.

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The pensions actually started out, what was it, 1909,

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the first pension, seven and six.

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People talk about Corbyn's Britain going back to the 1970s.

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What about the Tories going back to, like, the 1870s?

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It's becoming Victorian, what's happening in this country.

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APPLAUSE

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The man in the blue shirt.

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What I struggle with at the moment is there seems to be an easy win.

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We all recognise that the NHS, police and everybody

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need more money.

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Why hasn't any of the political parties committed to reducing

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the overseas aid budget, which is about 12 billion a year,

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even if it is just for a short time?

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Let's cut that back and let's reinstate it when we've

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balanced the budget.

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We may come to that question in a moment.

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The woman here on the right.

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To expand on that point, too autocratically give 0.7%

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of our GDP, and it's a target, there is no focus on

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where it's being spent.

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I'll come to that right now.

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Just hold it for a moment and stick on the point we were on before.

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You, in the third row.

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I want to ask Angela.

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You talk about how people are encouraged to work hard

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and save all their lives, yet there seems to be hypocrisy

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amongst the Labour Party.

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A bit like how you're against grammar schools and yet most

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of the Shadow Cabinet sends their children

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to selective or private schools.

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You just, whilst you may say, oh, you're going to take

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away everyone's savings, you instead would take it

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away in inheritance tax.

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Surely this is complete hypocrisy, you just want to soak the rich.

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Well, no, it's not hypocrisy.

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It's about choices, and we are saying this Government

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have made choices where they have slashed corporation tax, slashed

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the tax for those that are rich, and they are making pensioners

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pay for it.

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I went to a state school, and all my children

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go to a state school.

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I want the best for every single child, and that's why I don't

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believe that grammars are the right thing to do.

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I am basing it on the evidence rather than hypocrisy.

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APPLAUSE

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There are fundamental points here.

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We'll come to you.

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Yes?

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There is a fundamental point here and it isn't

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just about education.

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It's actually about Labour and the fact that they think

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they can literally spend their way when it comes to any big challenge

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or any big problem that society faces by taxing people.

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So you know if you own it they tax it, if you consume it they tax it,

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if it walks there's no doubt about it they tax it.

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It's not true.

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It is true.

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Are you ruling out national insurance contribution rises

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for Britain, are you going to rule that out in your manifesto?

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We did.

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Your party has no credibility.

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You don't answer the questions.

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There's nothing in the manifesto that says you will not increase

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national insurance contributions.

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That's what you wanted in the last Parliament.

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Are you going to do that?

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On June 8th it's about economic credibility and leadership.

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You won't answer the question.

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Seven years ago...

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Wait a moment.

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We can answer that one.

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There is a commitment...

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ALL SPEAK AT ONCE.

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Hang on a second.

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Hang on a second.

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You promised that you would get rid of the deficit.

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Angela.

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Angela.

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I'm sorry, there are five people on the panel,

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this is getting ridiculous, you cannot just shout

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at each other across me and leave out everybody else.

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Can I just say in this conversation, you are both talking about taxation

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but in a different way.

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You're talking about taxing people with dementia.

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No, I'm not.

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You, Sir in the centre.

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We know where the money is, we've got to go and get it.

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It's about where it's going to fall.

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You, there?

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Every time there's a cut mentioned or a saving needs to be made,

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Labour seem to be against it.

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Can Labour please tell us how we reduce ?1.7 trillion of debt?

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Yep, well we...

0:16:320:16:34

APPLAUSE.

0:16:340:16:37

Well, to be honest, that's a really fair point because under

0:16:390:16:41

the Conservatives that's doubled.

0:16:410:16:43

And they promised...

0:16:430:16:45

APPLAUSE.

0:16:450:16:47

And this is why I get really passionate about it

0:16:470:16:51

because they promised that they would make sure

0:16:510:16:53

the deficit was already gone by now, it's not true.

0:16:530:16:56

What is your answer to him?

0:16:560:16:57

My answer to you is that where we said we'd borrow

0:16:570:17:00

is about capital investment, it's about borrowing

0:17:000:17:01

and investing in our young people and our British lives.

0:17:010:17:04

So instead of getting people off the peg from abroad to do

0:17:040:17:08

the skills in our country, it's about making sure our young

0:17:080:17:12

people have a national education service so they're invested

0:17:120:17:14

in without the debt.

0:17:140:17:15

That's what it's about.

0:17:150:17:16

APPLAUSE.

0:17:160:17:20

All right, don't overdo it.

0:17:200:17:22

Vince Cable, how would you answer his point?

0:17:220:17:24

How is the debt going to be paid off which has increased

0:17:240:17:27

under the Conservatives?

0:17:270:17:28

If we are going to have improved services while dealing with sensible

0:17:280:17:31

public finance and public debt, as you rightly say, we've got

0:17:310:17:33

to have an honest way of funding these things.

0:17:330:17:36

That's why we've addressed the issue about the lack of funding for social

0:17:360:17:39

care and health by saying, you know, we've all earned,

0:17:390:17:43

we have got to pay a penny more in income tax.

0:17:430:17:46

That doesn't solve the problem but it will substantially alleviate it.

0:17:460:17:49

But saying that you can never cut anything and you have to have

0:17:490:17:52

tax cuts the whole time is fundamentally dishonest.

0:17:520:17:55

If we have good Public Services, we've got to pay for them.

0:17:550:17:58

Not just a handful of billionaires, but we've all got to

0:17:580:18:00

make a contribution.

0:18:000:18:03

There was nothing in the Conservative manifesto today

0:18:030:18:08

to explain how public finance is going to be raised.

0:18:080:18:10

Where would you suggest we make our cuts?

0:18:100:18:12

We have to make cuts somewhere, you would agree, where?

0:18:120:18:14

Where should we cut?

0:18:140:18:18

I was in the coalition for five years, I had

0:18:180:18:21

to cut my department spending by 25%.

0:18:210:18:22

Did you do that?

0:18:220:18:23

I did it because we had to get the budget in order.

0:18:230:18:26

So you would agree we have to cut services somewhere?

0:18:260:18:29

We have to manage the public finances properly of course.

0:18:290:18:31

But what is missing from this national debate at the moment,

0:18:310:18:34

particularly from the Tory manifesto, is where are

0:18:340:18:36

they going to raise taxes?

0:18:360:18:38

We know that after the election when Theresa May gets

0:18:380:18:41

in with a big majority, taxes are going to go up,

0:18:410:18:44

probably in income tax, probably national insurance,

0:18:440:18:46

white van man is going to have to pay more.

0:18:460:18:49

There isn't a word about it in their manifesto.

0:18:490:18:50

Priti Patel?

0:18:520:18:54

Can I just do it this way round, would you like to state

0:18:540:18:58

that there will be no increases in tax and no increases

0:18:580:19:01

in national insurance?

0:19:010:19:03

Are those words Mrs May would not allow you to speak?

0:19:030:19:06

All decisions on tax and spend are set out, and rightly so,

0:19:060:19:09

Vince will know this and other panelists will know this,

0:19:090:19:12

in the rightful way which is through budgets

0:19:120:19:15

and fiscal events.

0:19:150:19:17

It's not for me as a panelist to talk about it.

0:19:170:19:21

Maybe in your manifesto Angela where it's all about corporation tax

0:19:210:19:24

solving the problems but this is about being credible

0:19:240:19:27

on the economy.

0:19:270:19:29

You are not credible.

0:19:290:19:32

I think you will find we are, when it comes to financial

0:19:320:19:35

stability, Labour have a ?58 billion black hole in their own

0:19:350:19:44

from their manifesto.

0:19:440:19:47

You, Sir over there?

0:19:470:19:55

that we have been taking.

0:19:550:20:00

I haven't had a chance to read the Tory manifesto because it

0:20:000:20:03

only came out today,

0:20:030:20:05

but the winter fuel allowance, how exactly are you going to implement

0:20:050:20:08

who has it and who doesn't because other Governments have

0:20:080:20:11

resived doing it because they said it was too complex?

0:20:110:20:18

Very briefly.

0:20:180:20:20

It's means tested.

0:20:200:20:21

Currently there are 12.2 million who have the winter fuel allowance,

0:20:210:20:24

the actual payment itself, at great cost, so it

0:20:240:20:26

will be means tested.

0:20:260:20:27

Just before we move away to another question, Charles Moore,

0:20:270:20:29

you introduced yourself as Mrs Thatcher's biographer

0:20:290:20:31

and I note that the Spectator magazine you write for today says

0:20:310:20:34

that this is the most left-wing leader of the Tory

0:20:340:20:36

party in 40 years.

0:20:360:20:37

Are there things in this Tory manifesto and Theresa May's

0:20:370:20:40

approach to politics which, in your mind, are completely

0:20:400:20:42

different, a new direction for the Conservative Party?

0:20:420:20:44

Or is that just...

0:20:440:20:45

In one way not because I think Mrs May's very much expressing

0:20:450:20:48

the idea of the nation's identity asserting itself in

0:20:480:20:50

the way Mrs Thatcher was.

0:20:500:20:51

That's what Brexit was all about.

0:20:510:20:53

That's very much a Thatcher thing.

0:20:530:20:55

And she's going for the lore middle class, what she calls

0:20:550:21:03

And she's going for the lower middle class, what she calls

0:21:030:21:05

the just about managing, rather than natural

0:21:050:21:07

permanent Tory voters.

0:21:070:21:08

That's very similar.

0:21:080:21:10

There is a big difference and that's Mrs Thatcher was much more

0:21:100:21:13

a preacher of liberty than Mrs May and she much more talked

0:21:130:21:16

about opportunity and she much more said, trust the people to create

0:21:160:21:19

wealth and the thing that worries me about the Tory manifesto is I think

0:21:190:21:22

it doesn't look at the gifts of the people about how they can do

0:21:220:21:26

things, about how a person can start up a business and how to create

0:21:260:21:30

better opportunities so that they can, trusting

0:21:300:21:34

the people to create the prosperity.

0:21:340:21:38

There is an element of I think too much control in all of this.

0:21:380:21:41

It does worry me.

0:21:410:21:43

Particularly if we are Brexiting, we are left to our own devices.

0:21:430:21:49

We have got to sort it out.

0:21:490:21:51

And for that, we have got to have a lot of economic freedom.

0:21:510:21:54

Last point from you, Sir, then another question.

0:21:540:21:56

A question for Priti.

0:21:560:21:58

If your economics are stable, why is it that you won't volunteer

0:21:580:22:02

your manifesto to be judged against Labours,

0:22:020:22:05

as has been requested?

0:22:050:22:11

I don't think Labour's has been judged at all,

0:22:110:22:13

other than to say there is a ?58 billion black hole...

0:22:130:22:16

They've asked for it to be assessed against yours.

0:22:160:22:18

All based on greater tax levels basically and more

0:22:180:22:20

debt and more borrowing, but I think, you know,

0:22:200:22:22

as I've said, the reality is, is that when it comes to spending

0:22:220:22:26

decisions, they'll be forthcoming through the fiscal

0:22:260:22:29

processes that are in place.

0:22:290:22:30

I should also make the point in the manifesto, there

0:22:300:22:32

are commitments that we have made on education for example,

0:22:320:22:35

on housing, you know, finance is money that has been

0:22:350:22:38

announced during the budget as well.

0:22:380:22:40

Government's already factored in the spending that

0:22:400:22:42

will go into those areas.

0:22:420:22:44

Coming back to the point of social care as well,

0:22:440:22:47

we have put in an additional ?2 billion into social care.

0:22:470:22:50

Of course, on the point about the Winter Fuel Payments too,

0:22:500:22:53

that is about making sure A it's means tested but so that the rest

0:22:530:22:57

of that money goes into improving the quality of care such

0:22:570:23:00

as what the gentleman mentioned.

0:23:000:23:03

I come back to the point as well, why they don't want their manifesto

0:23:030:23:10

costed is because there are huge subsidies that could be cut.

0:23:100:23:19

Money is given to buy-to-let landlords overheating

0:23:240:23:26

our housing market.

0:23:260:23:27

There's going to be ?110 billion going into Trident nuclear weapons

0:23:270:23:30

which we don't need to spend.

0:23:300:23:31

There is another ?40 billion going into subsidising the private

0:23:310:23:34

pension industry which goes into lining the pockets

0:23:340:23:36

of those in the City.

0:23:360:23:37

We can make cuts and you don't want your numbers scrutinised

0:23:370:23:40

because you are subsidising the wrong people

0:23:400:23:42

in the wrong places.

0:23:420:23:43

APPLAUSE.

0:23:430:23:44

We'll go on to another question.

0:23:440:23:47

Just before we do, we are going to be in Belfast next week

0:23:470:23:50

and we are in Barnet the week after that.

0:23:500:23:52

I say that so if you want to come, the address is on the screen

0:23:520:23:56

there and you can.

0:23:560:23:57

I should also mention the two leaders specials,

0:23:570:23:59

well four leaders in fact but two leaders in pairs.

0:23:590:24:02

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are going to be in York

0:24:020:24:05

on Friday 2nd June.

0:24:050:24:08

They're not appearing together, they're appearing

0:24:080:24:11

one after the other.

0:24:110:24:14

And then Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron on the 4th June

0:24:140:24:16

in Edinburgh on a Sunday.

0:24:160:24:20

So if you want to come, that's Belfast, Barnet, York, Edinburgh.

0:24:200:24:22

Rich feasts.

0:24:220:24:25

You can apply, I'll give the details again at the end.

0:24:250:24:28

I think we'll go on to another question.

0:24:280:24:32

I will come back to the issue, if I have time, about foreign aid,

0:24:320:24:36

but let's take this question from Emily Petch, please?

0:24:360:24:39

Is Jeremy Corbyn credible enough to lead Brexit negotiations?

0:24:390:24:41

Yes!

0:24:410:24:46

I won't take a show of hands, but we'll hear from our panel first.

0:24:510:24:55

Vince Cable?

0:24:550:24:57

Well, I think the simple answer is no.

0:24:570:25:07

I'm not wanting to get into a sort of general view

0:25:070:25:10

of Jeremy Corbyn's political history, but the simple truth

0:25:100:25:12

of the matter is that on the particular issue of Brexit,

0:25:120:25:18

he and Theresa May are in the same place, I mean they've both voted

0:25:180:25:21

for what we call a hard Brexit or an extreme Brexit

0:25:210:25:24

or a Ukip-type Brexit which isn't just leaving the European Union

0:25:240:25:28

which the public had voted for, but also involved taking it out

0:25:280:25:31

of the single market, involves taking it out

0:25:310:25:33

of the customs union, which is fundamental

0:25:330:25:36

to our manufacturing industries which will sever a lot of the very

0:25:360:25:39

close scientific relationships we have, our university in Norwich

0:25:390:25:41

here is a typical example of an institution that will be

0:25:410:25:44

very badly damaged.

0:25:440:25:45

So that his responsibility is just as much as the Prime Minister

0:25:450:25:48

in taking the country in a very damaging and dangerous direction.

0:25:480:25:52

I accept, and my party accepts, that the public have voted

0:25:520:25:56

and the process is being started.

0:25:560:25:59

But there is a fundamental question now about which type of Brexit

0:25:590:26:05

we pursue and I'm afraid that Jeremy Corbyn has lost the plot

0:26:050:26:08

here and lost the loyalty of a lot of his own people because he's

0:26:080:26:11

taking us down the same direction as the Ukip-inspired

0:26:110:26:15

Conservative Government.

0:26:150:26:17

APPLAUSE.

0:26:170:26:18

All right.

0:26:180:26:22

The difference between him and Theresa May's negotiating

0:26:220:26:26

position if either was in charge?

0:26:260:26:29

Well, it's not clear what Jeremy Corbyn's

0:26:290:26:33

negotiating position is, I mean beyond the same

0:26:330:26:35

as the Government.

0:26:350:26:37

The problem is we now have as a country is what happens next

0:26:370:26:41

isn't really in our hands.

0:26:410:26:42

The British Government's made its pitch, we are pursuing this

0:26:420:26:47

hard extreme Brexit option, we've now got to wait

0:26:470:26:50

for what the European Union countries offer us.

0:26:500:26:54

They're going to struggle obviously to have a common position.

0:26:540:26:57

There are 27 Governments and the European Parliament and it

0:26:570:27:02

will probably come in the form of a take it or leave it offer.

0:27:020:27:05

If the offer is a bad one, the question then will be,

0:27:050:27:08

what do we do as a country.

0:27:080:27:10

What my party is saying, quite distinctly from Labour

0:27:100:27:14

or the Conservatives, is that the public have got to be

0:27:140:27:18

given the choice of deciding whether we take what is on offer

0:27:180:27:22

and that's the context of having another referendum and I don't think

0:27:220:27:26

the Labour Party are in that space.

0:27:260:27:27

Just while you're on that point, two things, do you accept now that

0:27:270:27:31

a majority of people, even if they voted, even if those

0:27:310:27:35

included voted Remain and now want Brexit and want the Government

0:27:350:27:38

to get on with it.

0:27:380:27:39

Secondly, it was you of course who said that a second vote would be

0:27:390:27:42

seriously disrespectful.

0:27:420:27:44

Yes, and I...

0:27:440:27:45

Utterly counterproductive.

0:27:450:27:47

Now you've changed your tune.

0:27:470:27:48

I said that and I meant it at the time of the referendum.

0:27:480:27:51

We had the referendum.

0:27:510:27:53

To disrespect the majority would have been completely wrong.

0:27:530:27:56

We now have a different question to answer which is,

0:27:560:27:59

what happens at the destination?

0:27:590:28:02

We voted to leave.

0:28:020:28:04

Sorry, what were you saying would be counterproductive,

0:28:040:28:06

the immediate oh dear, we didn't like that let's have

0:28:060:28:10

another one next year?

0:28:100:28:11

There was a lot of suspicion quite rightly that in European countries

0:28:110:28:16

they had referendums, they lost and the government

0:28:160:28:18

ran them again.

0:28:180:28:19

And you thought that might happen?

0:28:190:28:21

It could have happened.

0:28:210:28:23

That Cameron would stay there and say let's do it again?

0:28:230:28:27

If it happened it would have been wrong and that's

0:28:270:28:29

what I was criticising.

0:28:290:28:31

But we are now dealing with a fundamentally different

0:28:310:28:33

question which is what happens when we get to the end

0:28:330:28:35

of the process.

0:28:350:28:36

In our view, the Government, backed in this case

0:28:360:28:39

by Jeremy Corbyn, are leading us into a very deep swamp.

0:28:390:28:41

OK, it's where we are going.

0:28:410:28:44

We've got to have some line of retreat if this goes badly wrong.

0:28:440:28:47

APPLAUSE.

0:28:470:28:50

Angela Rayner?

0:28:500:28:52

Well, I think Jeremy Corbyn's been really clear and the Labour Party

0:28:520:28:56

position is clear, that we respect the votes of the referendum.

0:28:560:28:59

Actually, first first principle is to put British jobs

0:28:590:29:06

Actually, our first principle is to put British jobs

0:29:060:29:09

and our economy first, whereas Theresa May's dog whistling

0:29:090:29:11

the Ukip votes and saying we'll put immigration first,

0:29:110:29:13

yet she's failed to meet her targets time and time again on immigration.

0:29:130:29:16

Actually, we want a Brexit deal that will ensure that all parts of the UK

0:29:160:29:20

can prosper and do well.

0:29:200:29:21

Our manifesto sets out how we were going to grow Britain

0:29:210:29:24

and ensure that our children have the skills for the future

0:29:240:29:27

and not saddled with lots of debt and that we build more social

0:29:270:29:30

housing and an NHS and a social care system that will give people

0:29:300:29:33

dignity and respect.

0:29:330:29:34

The Conservatives are not offering that.

0:29:340:29:36

I read pages 28 and 29 of this under immigration for Labour,

0:29:360:29:39

there is no mention of cutting immigration at all?

0:29:390:29:48

We say that freedom of movement would end, and actually

0:29:480:29:50

what we believe is by making sure that employers can't

0:29:500:29:52

undercut wages in the UK, which the Conservatives have allowed

0:29:520:29:55

to happen for over seven years in power, we believe that actually

0:29:550:29:58

some of the practices that people are afraid of around

0:29:580:30:00

immigration will end, because we will make sure that

0:30:000:30:02

British skilled workers can get those jobs.

0:30:020:30:04

We don't have those skills at the moment.

0:30:040:30:06

They've cut bursaries for our NHS nurses.

0:30:060:30:08

APPLAUSE

0:30:080:30:08

Do you want, as a policy, to see fewer immigrants

0:30:080:30:11

coming to the UK or not?

0:30:110:30:12

We want to see a UK economy that puts our jobs and our workers first.

0:30:120:30:20

That's what we've said.

0:30:200:30:21

Immigration, and we've made no bones about that,

0:30:210:30:23

immigration has been positive for the UK.

0:30:230:30:25

APPLAUSE

0:30:250:30:30

But in some areas, like in my constituency

0:30:300:30:32

in Ashton-under-Lyne,

0:30:320:30:34

they feel they've been disproportionately affected

0:30:340:30:37

by immigration, because they've seen the housing pressures,

0:30:370:30:41

they've seen public services being cut, and they've seen

0:30:410:30:43

the undercutting of wages.

0:30:430:30:44

And the Conservatives have allowed that to happen.

0:30:440:30:46

They've broken their promises, and they're going to wreck our

0:30:460:30:49

economy by dog whistling Ukip on this particular issue.

0:30:490:30:53

Priti Patel.

0:30:530:30:56

Well, the question was about leadership and whether or not

0:30:560:30:59

Jeremy Corbyn is credible as a leader to go in and get

0:30:590:31:03

the best deal for Britain when it comes to our Brexit

0:31:030:31:06

discussions and negotiations.

0:31:060:31:08

I think the obvious answer is no.

0:31:080:31:09

Can any of us seriously picture and see Jeremy Corbyn sitting down

0:31:090:31:12

with presidents and prime ministers and chancellors across

0:31:120:31:15

Europe to get a deal?

0:31:150:31:17

Yes!

0:31:170:31:21

And the reason why the answer is no is because we are going to face

0:31:210:31:25

a challenging time over the next five years, and there's only one

0:31:250:31:27

leader, Theresa May, as Prime Minister, who's been able

0:31:270:31:30

to recognise that and face up to the fact that...

0:31:300:31:34

Where's the 350 million?

0:31:340:31:35

APPLAUSE

0:31:350:31:40

Hang on a second.

0:31:400:31:41

We need to get the best deal for our country

0:31:410:31:44

in those negotiations, which means that we need a strong

0:31:440:31:46

leader, someone that's going to stand up for Britain,

0:31:460:31:48

someone who will stand up for our national interests

0:31:480:31:50

and someone will get a good deal for our country, and

0:31:500:31:53

that is Theresa May.

0:31:530:31:54

And just another point.

0:31:540:31:55

On the point about immigration as well, let's be clear about why

0:31:550:31:58

we have had so many issues over the years on immigration.

0:31:580:32:02

Because it was a Labour Party in government that allowed a policy

0:32:020:32:05

of uncontrolled immigration, and our objective, throughout Brexit

0:32:050:32:08

negotiation, will be to take back control of our immigration,

0:32:080:32:12

to control our immigration policy...

0:32:120:32:15

Well, we're going to do this by leaving the European Union.

0:32:150:32:19

You've failed.

0:32:190:32:20

Theresa May was the Home Secretary for seven years, and she's

0:32:200:32:22

failed every single target she's set.

0:32:220:32:26

APPLAUSE

0:32:260:32:29

Presumably, Angela, you approve of her failure.

0:32:290:32:33

I approve...

0:32:330:32:35

Because you don't want to control immigration.

0:32:350:32:37

I believe that setting targets is the wrong way to go

0:32:370:32:40

about immigration in this country.

0:32:400:32:41

Immigrants come to this country and they work.

0:32:410:32:44

They work and they prop up our National Health Service.

0:32:440:32:46

You're saying the targets are irrelevant anyway.

0:32:460:32:48

The target is not the issue.

0:32:480:32:49

The issue is about people feeling like they've been left behind,

0:32:490:32:52

that their kids are not getting a future, because they're

0:32:520:32:54

going overseas to get the skilled workers instead

0:32:540:32:56

of giving our children those chances.

0:32:560:32:59

Let's hear from some members of our audience.

0:32:590:33:03

You, sir, over there.

0:33:030:33:10

To answer the question, is Jeremy Corbyn fit to lead

0:33:100:33:13

the Brexit negotiations, I think if the Government truly

0:33:130:33:15

wants to unite the country and represent the views of everyone,

0:33:150:33:17

then surely more than one political party leader should

0:33:170:33:19

be at the negotiation.

0:33:190:33:20

You can't just have a Conservative-led negotiation.

0:33:200:33:22

You're going to have more than half the country disagreeing with it.

0:33:220:33:25

You need to have representation from every party to truly

0:33:250:33:27

get a unified Britain.

0:33:270:33:29

And the woman in orange.

0:33:290:33:30

Thank you.

0:33:300:33:31

The panel seems to be very concerned with immigration,

0:33:310:33:33

and everyone's opinion on it.

0:33:330:33:35

This county would collapse without, not necessarily skilled workers,

0:33:350:33:37

but workers of all sorts that come in from the East European bloc.

0:33:370:33:44

APPLAUSE

0:33:440:33:50

The man behind you.

0:33:500:33:52

Can we not forget that Jeremy Corbyn won two leadership elections?

0:33:520:33:55

Theresa May won by default.

0:33:550:33:59

APPLAUSE

0:33:590:34:02

So Jeremy Corbyn is in a more stronger, more stable

0:34:020:34:06

position than Theresa May.

0:34:060:34:08

Theresa May won by default, so why should she be in charge

0:34:080:34:11

of our country negotiating Brexit?

0:34:110:34:12

She's got an election coming up.

0:34:120:34:14

Presumably we will be able to judge her standing

0:34:140:34:16

in the country by that.

0:34:160:34:17

Charles Moore.

0:34:170:34:19

In the foreword to the manifestos, the leaders both write something.

0:34:190:34:23

And in the first paragraph, Theresa May says,

0:34:230:34:28

"Brexit will define us".

0:34:280:34:31

And Jeremy Corbyn, his first paragraph says, "A big part

0:34:310:34:34

"of being the leader of a political party is that you meet people

0:34:340:34:37

"across the country and hear a wide range of views and ideas

0:34:370:34:40

"about the future".

0:34:400:34:41

Now, it seems to me that one of those sentences is focusing

0:34:410:34:44

on what it is to be a leader, and the other is not.

0:34:440:34:47

And I'm afraid it is very clear.

0:34:470:34:50

I actually covered the 1983 election and I went

0:34:500:34:54

round with Margaret Thatcher and with Michael Foot,

0:34:540:34:56

the then Labour leader, and I saw how they behaved.

0:34:560:34:59

And Mr Foot was a dear, kindly man, and I think that's

0:34:590:35:02

true of Jeremy Corbyn.

0:35:020:35:03

But it was absolutely blatantly obvious that he couldn't run

0:35:030:35:06

the country, completely and utterly so.

0:35:060:35:08

And it was blatantly obvious that whether you liked

0:35:080:35:11

Mrs Thatcher or not, she could.

0:35:110:35:13

And the voters could completely see that.

0:35:130:35:14

The question put the point there about Jeremy Corbyn being elected.

0:35:140:35:19

There is such a fantastic difference between being chosen by your party

0:35:190:35:21

and being chosen by the country.

0:35:210:35:26

And Michael Foot went to enormous rallies where

0:35:260:35:28

he was cheered to the echo.

0:35:280:35:30

I remember in Plymouth thousands of people cheering and yelling,

0:35:300:35:33

and he made a brilliant speech.

0:35:330:35:35

No use.

0:35:350:35:36

Makes no difference.

0:35:360:35:37

What they have to persuade is the people who are not persuaded.

0:35:370:35:40

And Mr Corbyn is an absolute classic preacher to the converted.

0:35:400:35:43

He can't reach out beyond that, and he won't.

0:35:430:35:47

And he'll lose.

0:35:470:35:49

APPLAUSE

0:35:490:35:56

To come back to the question again, Emily,

0:35:560:35:58

this is what the general election is about, in part, at least.

0:35:580:36:01

It is about who has the mandate to go forwards and take

0:36:010:36:04

forward these negotiations.

0:36:040:36:06

With regard to your specific question about Jeremy Corbyn,

0:36:060:36:08

I admire him in many ways.

0:36:080:36:10

I think he's putting forward a bold manifesto,

0:36:100:36:12

but on his judgment on Article 50, it was not good.

0:36:120:36:16

If you cast your mind back to 24 hours, 48 hours

0:36:160:36:20

after the referendum, he urged Article 50 to be

0:36:200:36:23

invoked immediately.

0:36:230:36:24

That was an error of judgment.

0:36:240:36:27

He has given the Conservatives a blank cheque.

0:36:270:36:29

Not just a blank cheque.

0:36:290:36:30

He has driven them to the bank and got them to cash it in,

0:36:300:36:34

over the Brexit negotiations.

0:36:340:36:35

But what's the alternative?

0:36:350:36:37

Theresa May, who's made mistake after mistake after mistake already

0:36:370:36:41

in the Brexit process.

0:36:410:36:43

Over Gibraltar, over rattling the sabres around intelligence

0:36:430:36:46

when she wrote the letter invoking Article 50.

0:36:460:36:50

She's had to be dragged kicking and screaming,

0:36:500:36:52

after people told her they wanted to take back control

0:36:520:36:54

to the referendum, just to let Parliament have a say in it,

0:36:540:36:57

and eventually conceded a vote in Parliament at the end.

0:36:570:37:00

But this is a Prime Minister who says one thing and does another.

0:37:000:37:05

And that's becoming abundantly clear.

0:37:050:37:08

We saw it at the general election.

0:37:080:37:10

No, there was going to be no general election.

0:37:100:37:12

A few days later, a general election is called.

0:37:120:37:14

She swears that she is going to stand up for the marginalised

0:37:140:37:17

and then freezes welfare benefits.

0:37:170:37:18

She condemns the evils of child trafficking...

0:37:180:37:20

Where's she going to go wrong in negotiating Brexit?

0:37:200:37:23

I think it's already clear that she's made an error of judgment.

0:37:230:37:26

I think she isn't keeping our options open.

0:37:260:37:29

I agree with Vince on this about a ratification referendum.

0:37:290:37:32

If she's conceded the principle that Parliament should

0:37:320:37:35

have a vote on the final terms, then why not trust the British

0:37:350:37:38

people to have that say as well?

0:37:380:37:40

APPLAUSE

0:37:400:37:43

Emily, what's your view about Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit?

0:37:430:37:46

I think that Corbyn is an incredibly passionate leader.

0:37:460:37:50

You know what you're going to get with Corbyn, whereas May,

0:37:500:37:53

there's always a bit of ambiguity, I guess.

0:37:530:37:58

I think personally, I'll be voting for Corbyn

0:37:580:38:00

because I know what he stands for.

0:38:000:38:02

He's passionate about his beliefs.

0:38:020:38:03

I feel like, as a student, he cares more about kind

0:38:030:38:08

of the marginalised in this country.

0:38:080:38:10

So when you say, is he credible enough, your answer would be yes?

0:38:100:38:14

Yes.

0:38:140:38:14

Definitely.

0:38:140:38:16

APPLAUSE

0:38:160:38:22

So it was a kind of rhetorical question.

0:38:220:38:24

I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

0:38:240:38:28

Lets go on to another...

0:38:280:38:30

I said we would come back to the issue that was

0:38:300:38:33

raised a moment ago.

0:38:330:38:34

The question from Gordon Jones.

0:38:340:38:35

I think we can take that.

0:38:350:38:37

Just take the key issue, Gordon, can you?

0:38:370:38:39

Thank you, David.

0:38:390:38:42

The thing what gets me about the Conservative Party

0:38:420:38:46

at the moment, they carried on from Cameron's 0.7% of GDP.

0:38:460:38:50

And why?

0:38:500:38:55

You're talking about foreign aid.

0:38:550:38:56

Yes, sorry, foreign aid.

0:38:560:39:00

What was your actual question, why are they still doing that?

0:39:000:39:02

Why are they still carrying on?

0:39:020:39:04

When you've got a shortage of policemen, firemen,

0:39:040:39:06

care workers, everybody else.

0:39:060:39:10

Everybody suffers, while we keep giving this large amount.

0:39:100:39:14

And we've given this large amount away for silly things.

0:39:140:39:18

We even give Saint Helena Island 285 million to build an airport

0:39:180:39:24

which no airlines can take off from.

0:39:240:39:28

Charles Moore.

0:39:280:39:33

Yes, I basically agree with what was just said.

0:39:330:39:37

First of all, I think it is very wrong to commit automatically

0:39:370:39:40

a percentage of the country's money.

0:39:400:39:43

You shouldn't have a law.

0:39:430:39:44

All spending should vary depending on need.

0:39:440:39:47

You shouldn't have a law that says it's got to be X percent.

0:39:470:39:51

Secondly, it is true, and it's partly because they say

0:39:510:39:54

it's got to be that much, that they don't how to spend it.

0:39:540:39:57

So it's all there and they don't know how to spend it.

0:39:570:40:02

Thirdly, they are actually not allowed to spend it on things that

0:40:020:40:04

are of benefit to Britain.

0:40:040:40:06

It's actually against the rules.

0:40:060:40:07

And so it is wasted.

0:40:070:40:11

One of the key things about running a country is priorities.

0:40:110:40:13

I've often seen British aid workers in foreign places.

0:40:130:40:15

Many of them are excellent people, government people, I mean.

0:40:150:40:19

But the way the system works, I've seen it in Afghanistan,

0:40:190:40:22

particularly when it's a dangerous situation, is that all the money

0:40:220:40:26

they hand over from British taxpayers goes to the government.

0:40:260:40:29

And in these bad places, it's squandered by the government.

0:40:290:40:33

The people whose fingers are nearest to the money, keep it.

0:40:330:40:35

That's how it works in those places.

0:40:350:40:38

And when we actually have priorities, I can't understand why

0:40:380:40:41

the government is stuck on this one.

0:40:410:40:43

It's the same with...

0:40:430:40:44

They go on about energy prices, quite rightly, they are too high.

0:40:440:40:47

But we have these unbelievably high renewable demands,

0:40:470:40:49

which is the reason energy prices are so high, because we spend more

0:40:490:40:54

than 7 billion out of the levy making people pay that

0:40:540:40:59

for alleged climate change.

0:40:590:41:02

Alleged climate change?

0:41:020:41:05

Alleged climate change!

0:41:050:41:07

You're a climate change sceptic, or an outright denier?

0:41:070:41:10

I'm a sceptic.

0:41:100:41:11

A sceptic, OK.

0:41:110:41:12

And what evidence is it that you don't believe?

0:41:120:41:14

I'm very happy to have the climate change debate, but shall I...

0:41:140:41:18

Finish your point, and then I'll bring Jonathan in.

0:41:180:41:21

If you're trying to help the people who are just about managing,

0:41:210:41:24

which I very much support Mrs May in doing, really work that out,

0:41:240:41:27

really think about that.

0:41:270:41:29

And if that's so, you would not be putting up energy bills

0:41:290:41:32

with renewable levies, and you would not be spending

0:41:320:41:35

all this money on foreign aid.

0:41:350:41:37

APPLAUSE

0:41:370:41:41

Jonathan Bartley.

0:41:410:41:44

Another subsidy we could cut is the ?30 billion Hinckley subsidy,

0:41:440:41:47

which is ridiculous.

0:41:470:41:49

Are you in favour of 13 billion foreign aid?

0:41:490:41:51

I am absolutely in favour of 13 billion foreign aid,

0:41:510:41:54

and we would put it up, unequivocally, and proud of it.

0:41:540:41:58

I am proud of it, and we would put it up to 1% of GDP.

0:41:580:42:02

And let me tell you, I'm ashamed of our country,

0:42:020:42:05

when we spend 40% of our gross domestic product and public

0:42:050:42:07

expenditure on ourselves, the fifth biggest economy

0:42:070:42:09

in the world, and we can just about scrape together 0.7% of GDP

0:42:090:42:13

on the entire rest of the world.

0:42:130:42:17

When there is a famine in East Africa with 22 million

0:42:170:42:21

people facing starvation, and we can't muster up...

0:42:210:42:25

Where's the pride in our country, where's the passion?

0:42:250:42:28

We should be leading the world in doing the right thing.

0:42:280:42:31

I'm ashamed that we are even having this conversation.

0:42:310:42:33

APPLAUSE

0:42:330:42:38

You can shout about it if you know where the money's doing good.

0:42:380:42:42

They give a health ministry in Kenya 106 million to provide

0:42:420:42:48

for the next eight years.

0:42:480:42:51

Gordon, I'm absolutely on the same page with you on that.

0:42:510:42:54

I believe we must know where the money is going.

0:42:540:42:56

We need accountability and there must be transparency,

0:42:560:42:58

but that is not an excuse for cutting the aid budget.

0:42:580:43:01

APPLAUSE

0:43:010:43:05

Let me come back to the panel.

0:43:050:43:07

Vince Cable.

0:43:070:43:08

There are two honest and credible ways of dealing with the aid issue.

0:43:080:43:11

One is to have the target and meet it.

0:43:110:43:14

And I have to say, I have many disagreements with David Cameron,

0:43:140:43:16

but he deserves a lot of credit for having done this.

0:43:160:43:21

He got a lot of flak from his own people and from the right-wing

0:43:210:43:24

press but he stuck at it and he deserves credit.

0:43:240:43:27

It seems that the other honest way of dealing with it is the way that

0:43:270:43:30

you and several other people of the audience have

0:43:300:43:33

said quite outright, we don't want foreign aid,

0:43:330:43:35

we want to spend it here.

0:43:350:43:36

I don't agree with that but at least it's honest.

0:43:360:43:38

But what appears in the Conservative manifesto today is something

0:43:380:43:41

that is grossly dishonest.

0:43:410:43:44

What they are saying is, let's keep the aid target but fiddle

0:43:440:43:47

it and redefine it so that it isn't really aid at all.

0:43:470:43:52

And that, I'm afraid, is going to bring the whole thing

0:43:520:43:54

into gross disrepute.

0:43:540:43:55

What do you mean by that?

0:43:550:43:57

Well, they want to change the definition of aid so that it

0:43:570:44:00

doesn't actually aid the developing countries in a way that

0:44:000:44:03

everybody recognises, but is hiding other forms

0:44:030:44:05

of British public spending.

0:44:050:44:09

And that is not reputable.

0:44:090:44:11

That is not a sensible way of doing it.

0:44:110:44:13

If we have an aid programme and we are committed to it,

0:44:130:44:15

we should deliver it.

0:44:150:44:17

If we want out of it, we should do what other people

0:44:170:44:20

are saying and cut it.

0:44:200:44:21

But trying to hide stuff is not...

0:44:210:44:23

We are not trying to hide stuff, Vince.

0:44:230:44:25

Why are you trying to redefine it?

0:44:250:44:26

You wanted to abolish the Department, didn't you?

0:44:260:44:32

We are proud, as a Government, of our 0.7% commitment and it helps

0:44:320:44:35

us stand tall in the world.

0:44:350:44:40

We are the fifth largest economy in the world and I think actually

0:44:400:44:43

when we look at the good that we do, through international development,

0:44:430:44:48

no-one can doubt we are saving lives and changing lives

0:44:480:44:51

in unprecedented ways.

0:44:510:44:53

I've had the privilege of going to some of the most

0:44:530:44:55

harrowing places in the world.

0:44:550:44:57

Jonathan mentioned the East Africaen famine, I've been to Sudan

0:44:570:45:00

and Somalia where people are dying, so ?20 of UK aid would provide

0:45:000:45:03

food, water and shelter for a family for over a month.

0:45:030:45:06

That helps us stand tall in the world and we should all be

0:45:060:45:09

proud of that in terms of how we're spending money.

0:45:090:45:11

But, there is more that we can do in terms of the how

0:45:110:45:14

we spend that money, where it goes and following

0:45:140:45:20

the money to ensure that it goes to the world's poorest to get

0:45:200:45:23

the development outcomes that we need to see.

0:45:230:45:25

We have seen plenty of cases over the years of aid that's not gone

0:45:250:45:28

to the right causes, the right people or even driven

0:45:280:45:31

outcomes and developmental outcomes or alleviated poverty.

0:45:310:45:34

That is my job, through not just our manifesto but through the nine

0:45:340:45:37

months I've spent in DFID so far in tracking down, following

0:45:370:45:41

the money and ensuring we spend that money so it's in our national

0:45:410:45:45

interest, whether it's on diseases or famine to keep us safe here.

0:45:450:45:48

Just in the manifesto, we do say we'd work with like-minded

0:45:480:45:52

countries where we can reform the OECD, the rules,

0:45:520:45:55

for this very purpose, because we can't spend money,

0:45:550:45:59

for example, on getting military support in to deliver aid

0:45:590:46:05

in humanitarian situations.

0:46:050:46:06

I've seen those situations, I've seen aid workers or know of aid

0:46:060:46:09

workers who've been killed delivering food relief in some very,

0:46:090:46:13

very unstable parts of the world.

0:46:130:46:16

We believe we can change that situation by yes,

0:46:160:46:18

spending more with the MoD to get equipment in, but also

0:46:180:46:22

to get life-saving aid in as well into some very,

0:46:220:46:25

very difficult parts of the world.

0:46:250:46:27

I think actually Britain post-Brexit, this helps us to not

0:46:270:46:31

only stand tall in the world...

0:46:310:46:32

You've said that.

0:46:320:46:33

But to give us influence in the world as well.

0:46:330:46:35

Gordon complains about the shortage of nurses and doctors

0:46:350:46:38

and the rest of it.

0:46:380:46:40

You are spending ?13 billion or so, a bit more on foreign aid,

0:46:400:46:43

the pledges is to increase the NHS by ?8 billion over

0:46:430:46:49

the next Parliament, yes?

0:46:490:46:51

Yes.

0:46:510:46:54

That is about ?30 million a week.

0:46:540:46:56

You told us there would be ?350 million a week?

0:46:560:46:58

Well, you have to...

0:46:580:47:01

APPLAUSE.

0:47:010:47:04

Didn't you?

0:47:040:47:06

No, I think...

0:47:060:47:07

You've only managed to get...

0:47:070:47:13

I mean you've only managed to gets ?30 million,

0:47:130:47:15

so does that raise a questionabout whether foreign aid is justified?

0:47:150:47:18

I've already made the case...

0:47:180:47:19

What happened to your promise that we get ?350 million?

0:47:190:47:23

We've got to leave the European Union first

0:47:230:47:25

of all to take back control of that money.

0:47:250:47:27

You have seen in the manifesto what we'll do with that

0:47:270:47:30

money today as well.

0:47:300:47:31

We'll put that into a fund where that money will go back

0:47:310:47:34

to the UK and so that we can spend that money in the UK

0:47:340:47:37

in a way in which, you know, not only secures jobs in this

0:47:370:47:40

country but leads to greater investment.

0:47:400:47:42

So will the NHS still get the ?350 million a week that

0:47:420:47:45

you stood in front of brandishing...

0:47:450:47:47

We have committed to ?8 billion on torch of...

0:47:470:47:50

I know you have, but where's the ?350?

0:47:500:47:57

On top of the ?11 billion that's gone into mental health as well.

0:47:570:48:00

In terms of funding to the NHS we are absolutely committed not just

0:48:000:48:03

to securing funding but investing in the future as well.

0:48:030:48:05

So we have to forget 350 story.

0:48:050:48:07

Angela Rayner?

0:48:070:48:08

You are plugging the holes of the money you have siphoned out

0:48:080:48:11

of our Public Services at best.

0:48:110:48:13

Not true.

0:48:130:48:14

APPLAUSE.

0:48:140:48:18

But, to be fair, I will agree with Priti on the issue around

0:48:180:48:21

the 0.7%, she's absolutely right and she's changed her tune

0:48:210:48:25

because she did want to get rid of her department,

0:48:250:48:27

as David did say.

0:48:270:48:29

Gordon has a point about where we spend that money.

0:48:290:48:31

What Priti was saying earlier, for example we are spending aid

0:48:310:48:36

to Yemen, yet we are selling arms to Saudi Arabia who're causing

0:48:360:48:40

the crisis in Yemen, so we need to look at that.

0:48:400:48:44

APPLAUSE.

0:48:440:48:53

I'll take a point from you in the third row?

0:49:070:49:09

Quickly if you would?

0:49:090:49:11

The panelists say it's about investing in the future,

0:49:110:49:14

why then Angela would you put VAT on private school fees

0:49:140:49:16

which would deny people like me the education that my family has

0:49:160:49:19

worked hard to put me through and overburdened the state sector?

0:49:190:49:22

That is not investing in the future, that is just soaking the rich

0:49:220:49:25

and denying hard working people what their families

0:49:250:49:27

want to give them.

0:49:270:49:28

OK, we'll go to that question.

0:49:280:49:29

Joanne Reid, let's have it?

0:49:290:49:30

Should tuition fees be free for all students?

0:49:300:49:32

Should tuition fees be free for all students

0:49:320:49:34

which is Labour policy.

0:49:340:49:35

Angela Rayner?

0:49:350:49:37

Yes, I think they should be.

0:49:370:49:38

Because students pay a massive debt towards it

0:49:380:49:40

by working in our industry, working in our industries

0:49:400:49:42

once they are skilled and being our doctors,

0:49:420:49:44

scientists of the future, and our young people are leaving

0:49:440:49:46

education with ?44,000 of debt.

0:49:460:49:47

That's astronomical.

0:49:470:49:50

We'll invest in them.

0:49:500:49:51

APPLAUSE.

0:49:510:49:53

What was your point?

0:49:530:49:54

But if young people are the future of Britain post-Brexit,

0:49:540:49:57

your VAT would force people out of private schools, the state

0:49:570:49:59

schools can't cope with it and it would actually also deny

0:49:590:50:02

the brightest and the best the bursaries...

0:50:020:50:04

AUDIENCE BOO.

0:50:040:50:06

It would deny the brightest and the best because there'll be

0:50:060:50:09

less money going in, they couldn't get the education

0:50:090:50:11

they deserve and it would make the education

0:50:110:50:13

in the state sector worse.

0:50:130:50:14

Can I just say that I don't think it will.

0:50:140:50:18

I think the bursary, the VAT levy on schools

0:50:180:50:22

is about schools paying the right amount of VAT which they currently

0:50:220:50:24

don't have to pay.

0:50:240:50:27

It's a state subsidy to private schools.

0:50:270:50:28

When you've got choices to make, I believe that putting

0:50:280:50:32

that money into the 95%, rather than the 5%

0:50:320:50:34

is the right option.

0:50:340:50:36

APPLAUSE.

0:50:360:50:41

Priti Patel?

0:50:410:50:43

Well, I think the perennial question here is, you know,

0:50:430:50:47

with Labour again, how they're going to pay for this,

0:50:470:50:50

because the reality is, when it comes to tuition fees,

0:50:500:50:58

making it free for everyone, it is simply not sustainable,

0:50:580:51:00

it's not financially credible at all.

0:51:000:51:02

Actually, you would be supporting children from pretty well off

0:51:020:51:04

backgrounds to go to university and what we are seeing right now

0:51:040:51:07

through the tuition fees policy is actually it's giving the support

0:51:070:51:10

to many of those that could not get access to university education,

0:51:100:51:13

those from disadvantaged backgrounds and those are the ones we should be

0:51:130:51:16

targeting and supporting to get into university.

0:51:160:51:18

APPLAUSE.

0:51:180:51:21

But that number's gone down.

0:51:210:51:24

The woman in blue on the gangway?

0:51:240:51:26

I went to university and I ended up with over ?30,000 worth of debt

0:51:260:51:29

and I'm not in a job which I graduated for or worked hard

0:51:290:51:32

towards because a lot of jobs when you leave universities

0:51:320:51:35

being entry levels, you don't get paid anything or just

0:51:350:51:38

get your travel costs.

0:51:380:51:39

So I've ended up in a job that I didn't work hard towards and I've

0:51:390:51:42

been there for six years because I can't find anything that

0:51:420:51:47

I've graduated and worked towards.

0:51:470:51:49

OK.

0:51:490:51:50

Vince Cable, of course, the Liberal Democrats famously

0:51:500:51:54

didn't want tuition fees and then We didn't.

0:51:540:51:56

Do you approve of Labour's plan to abolish them again

0:51:560:51:58

or are they now inevitable?

0:51:580:52:00

In an idealised fantasy world where money grew on trees,

0:52:000:52:03

it should of course be free.

0:52:030:52:08

All three political parties, including mine, have made complete

0:52:080:52:10

fools of themselves in the past by promising what they

0:52:100:52:13

couldn't deliver.

0:52:130:52:15

When the Labour Government came in, they promised never to introduce

0:52:150:52:20

tuition fees and did and promised not to increase them and did

0:52:200:52:24

because they were being sensible and realistic and Gordon Brown

0:52:240:52:26

and Tony Blair could see that universities were going bust,

0:52:260:52:30

they couldn't accommodate the students and provide

0:52:300:52:33

good quality education so that's what they did.

0:52:330:52:35

When we came into the coalition, we promised not to increase tuition

0:52:350:52:38

fees, it was obviously undeliverable, we had

0:52:380:52:40

to do it, we paid a big political price for it.

0:52:400:52:44

But the question I had to face and I was given the hospital

0:52:440:52:47

pass of this policy, was what do you do?

0:52:470:52:49

You've got 40% of young people going to university,

0:52:490:52:52

we want to maintain world class standards, how do you pay for it?

0:52:520:52:55

You can ask the rest of the public to pay for it in tax and remember

0:52:550:53:00

that about 80% of adults never went to university so why

0:53:000:53:03

should they pay?

0:53:030:53:05

You can do what they do in Scotland, which is they pretend it's free

0:53:050:53:10

but then they raid the budget of schools and further education

0:53:100:53:12

colleges to pay for it.

0:53:120:53:15

Or you can do what we now do, which is to have a kind of graduate

0:53:150:53:20

tax, that's basically what it is, people who benefit from higher

0:53:200:53:25

education if they get a decent income later in life,

0:53:250:53:28

they pay progressively according to their income.

0:53:280:53:30

It's not ideal, I can understand all the anxieties people

0:53:300:53:33

have about the system, but what is the alternative,

0:53:330:53:36

how do you pay for it otherwise?

0:53:360:53:38

This is basic reality.

0:53:380:53:42

APPLAUSE.

0:53:420:53:43

You?

0:53:430:53:44

Hopefully this year I'm going to university and I have

0:53:440:53:48

friends in my cohort who've not even started the process

0:53:480:53:51

because they know how much it will cost and they know

0:53:510:53:54

that they can't afford it, so tuition fees do single out and it

0:53:540:53:59

puts a lot of people off.

0:53:590:54:02

Even though it was defined as a graduate tax, in other

0:54:020:54:06

words you only pay it when you start earning?

0:54:060:54:08

Yes, because ?21,000 is the point you then start paying,

0:54:080:54:13

if you earn over ?21,000, you then have to pay.

0:54:130:54:16

A lot of people will earn over ?21,000 so they'll

0:54:160:54:20

have to pay it back.

0:54:200:54:24

If you pay for tuition fees, if the Government does

0:54:240:54:27

and we don't have to, then the Government will

0:54:270:54:29

know how much they have to spend on tuition fees.

0:54:290:54:31

At the moment they don't know.

0:54:310:54:33

They don't know if 20,000 people are going to not pay

0:54:330:54:38

or they will know that they have to pay and not who won't pay.

0:54:380:54:41

You in the front?

0:54:410:54:42

In Scotland, obviously they don't pay for tuition fees

0:54:420:54:45

going to university.

0:54:450:54:47

If they're Scottish, the English pay, of course.

0:54:470:54:49

But from my understanding, there's a lot less places for people

0:54:490:54:54

to go to university because that Government are paying

0:54:540:54:57

so if we had free fees surely there would be a lot less places

0:54:570:55:01

in England for students.

0:55:010:55:04

Charles Moore?

0:55:040:55:08

This is a very important point that's just been made.

0:55:080:55:13

Because there are no tuition fees in Scotland for Scots,

0:55:130:55:15

the serious problem with this is that the universities

0:55:150:55:18

don't get enough money.

0:55:180:55:20

The universities themselves mind very much.

0:55:200:55:24

They don't quite like saying it because it sounds as if they're

0:55:240:55:27

indifferent to the sufferings of those that have to pay the money.

0:55:270:55:29

To be world class universities, they have to get in more

0:55:290:55:34

money than you can get in from Government payment.

0:55:340:55:37

So what happens in Scotland and I know this because our son

0:55:370:55:41

was in a Scottish university and he's English, and he paid

0:55:410:55:44

the full whack therefore but what that means

0:55:440:55:46

is that the Scottish Government actually Scottish university rather

0:55:460:55:50

want more English students because they get more money

0:55:500:55:52

and they want more foreign students because they get more money

0:55:520:55:55

and they don't want more Scottish students

0:55:550:55:57

because they get less money.

0:55:570:56:00

If you think about the ultimate benefit of the education

0:56:000:56:02

the universities can provide, there have to be higher fees.

0:56:020:56:05

That's why it all came about that it went up to ?9,000 when it used

0:56:050:56:09

to be ?3,000 and so on, because otherwise you are going to

0:56:090:56:12

get very weak university education.

0:56:120:56:14

Nobody benefits and you're not learning anything.

0:56:140:56:18

Jonathan Bartley?

0:56:180:56:21

We only have a minute left?

0:56:210:56:24

I have to challenge the idea that there's somehow an inevitability

0:56:240:56:27

about bringing in tuition fees, Vince.

0:56:270:56:29

The only inevitability was that you saw the young

0:56:290:56:31

people and you thought, they are an easy target.

0:56:310:56:34

No.

0:56:340:56:35

That is why you went for them.

0:56:350:56:36

And you broke your promise.

0:56:360:56:38

It is the big corporations who benefit from the education

0:56:380:56:44

that's given to graduates.

0:56:440:56:45

They're the one who is make the excess profits of this

0:56:450:56:53

They're the ones who make the excess profits of this education,

0:56:530:56:55

it's time they gave back.

0:56:550:56:56

Now, there is enough money around.

0:56:560:56:58

There is this lie that there's not enough money.

0:56:580:57:00

The problem is not there is not enough money,

0:57:000:57:02

the money is in the wrong hands.

0:57:020:57:04

APPLAUSE.

0:57:040:57:05

We have had corporation tax cut and cut and cut since 2010.

0:57:050:57:08

From 27% down to 19%.

0:57:080:57:09

If we reverse the cuts, that's not even up to the EU average

0:57:090:57:12

level or the G7 average level, we'd still be lowerer

0:57:120:57:15

level or the G7 average level, we'd still be lower,

0:57:150:57:17

we could raise ?9 billion a year, rising to ?12 billion a year

0:57:170:57:20

which would be enough, not just to get rid of tuition

0:57:200:57:23

fees but to reintroduce a maintenance grant.

0:57:230:57:24

That's what I want for my daughter who is about to go to university.

0:57:240:57:28

I don't want our public sector debt taken away from the public sector

0:57:280:57:31

and put around the necks of our young people.

0:57:310:57:33

That is not the future that we need.

0:57:330:57:35

APPLAUSE.

0:57:350:57:36

Thank you.

0:57:360:57:37

There are many hands up.

0:57:370:57:39

I'm sorry, we have to stop because our time's up, as ever.

0:57:390:57:41

We are going to be in Belfast next week, we are going to be in Barnet

0:57:410:57:45

in north London the week after that.

0:57:450:57:47

A reminder of the leader specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn

0:57:470:57:50

in York on Friday 2nd June and Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron

0:57:500:57:53

on Sunday 4th in Edinburgh, not head-to-head but one

0:57:530:57:55

after the other.

0:57:550:57:56

If you want to argue with them, quiz them, the details of how

0:57:560:57:59

to apply are on the screen.

0:57:590:58:00

If you are listening to this on Five Live,

0:58:000:58:03

If you are listening to this on Five Live,

0:58:030:58:03

I was going to say the debate goes on, but there is a phone-in

0:58:030:58:07

discussion, it's not the debate because everybody here goes home.

0:58:070:58:09

That was on Question Time extra time.

0:58:090:58:13

The panel and audience go home.

0:58:130:58:16

My thanks to the panel and to all of you who came

0:58:160:58:19

to Norwich to take part in this edition of Question Time.

0:58:190:58:21

Until next Thursday, good night.

0:58:210:58:23

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Norwich.

On the panel are Conservative international development secretary Priti Patel; Labour's shadow education secretary Angela Rayner; Lib Dem and former business secretary Vince Cable; Green Party co-leader Jonathan Bartley; former Daily Telegraph editor and official Margaret Thatcher biographer Charles Moore.


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