25/05/2017 Question Time


25/05/2017

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Salford in Greater Manchester. On the panel are Amber Rudd, Andy Burnham, Sara Khan, Nazir Afzal and Colin Parry.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, we're in Salford in Greater Manchester for a special

:00:07.:00:10.

programme focusing on the impact of Monday's shocking events

:00:11.:00:12.

With us tonight, Home Secretary Amber Rudd.

:00:13.:00:29.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester and former Cabinet

:00:30.:00:32.

Colin Parry who set up the Tim Parry Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace

:00:33.:00:38.

after his son died in the Warrington bombings in 1993.

:00:39.:00:42.

The counter-extremism campaigner and former advisor

:00:43.:00:46.

And the head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association

:00:47.:00:54.

and former Chief Prosecutor for North West England Nazir Afzal.

:00:55.:01:07.

Election campaigning remains suspended until tomorrow so we don't

:01:08.:01:11.

have our usual multi-party panel for tonight's Question Time,

:01:12.:01:16.

We take our first question from Darren Halcott, please.

:01:17.:01:32.

As a father of three young girls living here in Manchester,

:01:33.:01:35.

I find it hard to come to terms with Monday night's atrocities.

:01:36.:01:38.

What decisive action should Government take

:01:39.:01:39.

What actions should the Government take, Amber Rudd?

:01:40.:01:44.

I find it hard to come to terms with as well as a mother of two children.

:01:45.:01:48.

The important thing for us to do now is to concentrate

:01:49.:01:51.

on allowing the police and the Intelligence Services

:01:52.:01:55.

There may be lessons to learn afterwards.

:01:56.:02:01.

We have some very strong Counter-Terrorism programmes

:02:02.:02:05.

in place which we may discuss later today, but I think the important

:02:06.:02:08.

thing now is to allow the operation to complete.

:02:09.:02:11.

It's an ongoing investigation and what we saw on Tuesday or Monday

:02:12.:02:15.

But we also saw some extraordinary compassion and strength

:02:16.:02:21.

It's something that the emergency services, the NHS had rehearsed

:02:22.:02:29.

But when it did happen, the operation worked incredibly

:02:30.:02:35.

smoothly and I would like to take the opportunity, if I may,

:02:36.:02:37.

to thank the emergency services and the NHS staff

:02:38.:02:40.

And what was the point of bringing the army out on to the streets?

:02:41.:02:51.

We have been at threat level of severe since 2013.

:02:52.:02:58.

We have moved to critical because it's an ongoing operation.

:02:59.:03:02.

The fact is that when it's at that stage, we have the option to call

:03:03.:03:07.

in Operation Tempera which allows army military support to be drawn

:03:08.:03:11.

It will allow, I hope, Sir, for you and your family to feel

:03:12.:03:16.

more secure when you go around your every day life.

:03:17.:03:18.

In this period of critical which we hope will only last a few

:03:19.:03:25.

days, it could be longer, it will depend on the operation,

:03:26.:03:28.

we have pulled out additional support from the army so that we can

:03:29.:03:31.

Events in Manchester and further afield can take place with extra

:03:32.:03:38.

Nazia Afzal, Do you agree That that is the proper action to take?

:03:39.:03:45.

It's necessary at the moment because it's an ongoing investigation.

:03:46.:03:49.

We have had this before, the second or third time in ten

:03:50.:03:53.

years where we've had to go to what should haves

:03:54.:04:05.

years where we've had to go to what involves

:04:06.:04:08.

the Armed Forces behind the wire to enable police officers to go out

:04:09.:04:11.

I think it's a necessary thing but previous examples tell us it

:04:12.:04:15.

only lasts five or seven days, so once we have got this inquiry

:04:16.:04:18.

to a point where we are safe, then the army can go back to doing

:04:19.:04:22.

To answer the gentleman's question, I love Manchester, I've

:04:23.:04:28.

I am amazed at your resilience, your tolerance.

:04:29.:04:33.

I was at the vigil on Tuesday night with colleagues here, some of them,

:04:34.:04:36.

and I was touched by it all and I cried.

:04:37.:04:38.

I cried when people started chanting "Manchester,

:04:39.:04:40.

Manchester, Manchester", I cried today when people

:04:41.:04:42.

were having a one-minute silence and people started singing,

:04:43.:04:45.

don't look back in anger immediately afterwards.

:04:46.:04:46.

That is what Manchester is special for.

:04:47.:04:49.

In terms of what you do now, you do what I've done,

:04:50.:04:52.

which is to have a conversation with your children because they're

:04:53.:04:55.

probably keeping things to themselves and it's about giving

:04:56.:04:59.

them the ability to talk about what they feel.

:05:00.:05:04.

They're doing it in their schools but we can do it in our homes.

:05:05.:05:08.

Darren's question was, what decisive action

:05:09.:05:09.

They should do what the Home Secretary said, allow the police

:05:10.:05:15.

I know Greater Manchester Police well being the Chief Prosecutor

:05:16.:05:19.

They're extremely effective when it comes to serious and organised crime

:05:20.:05:24.

and I know how effective they are in this operation.

:05:25.:05:26.

At the same time, there is a conversation we'll have

:05:27.:05:29.

during the course of this evening about what needs to happen

:05:30.:05:31.

around deradicalisation, what more we can do around

:05:32.:05:34.

controlling the threat that we are facing, how we can

:05:35.:05:36.

ensure that we get more information from the communities,

:05:37.:05:39.

people know now that much of what we know about that

:05:40.:05:42.

particular suspect, or that particular bomber,

:05:43.:05:43.

let's put it bluntly, came from the communities

:05:44.:05:45.

So how do we engage, how do we ensure the people are able

:05:46.:05:51.

to provide information so the Security Services

:05:52.:05:53.

But you're involved closely with the police.

:05:54.:05:58.

When the Chief Constable of Manchester said "I think it's

:05:59.:06:05.

clear that this is a network that we are investigating",

:06:06.:06:08.

were you surprised at that, given that the police,

:06:09.:06:12.

the job of the police is to spot these networks before they emerge?

:06:13.:06:15.

I'm not going to speak for policing tonight,

:06:16.:06:17.

I don't speak for the commissioners, but what I can tell you based

:06:18.:06:20.

We've had sadly a number of incidents across Europe

:06:21.:06:26.

which have been low level in terms of sophistication, a man

:06:27.:06:28.

with a knife, a truck that caused enormous damage and misery.

:06:29.:06:31.

What we have had here, as we all know, is somebody

:06:32.:06:35.

with a little bit more sophistication and evidently

:06:36.:06:38.

the evidence is suggesting a wider network involved.

:06:39.:06:42.

I know for a fact that Greater Manchester Police

:06:43.:06:44.

That's part of the reason why we've gone to getting the Armed Forces

:06:45.:06:49.

to support certainly allow police officers to be out doing

:06:50.:06:51.

So I'm satisfied that the police are doing a phenomenal job this time

:06:52.:06:57.

around but they're doing it with the assistance

:06:58.:06:59.

Darren, let me come back to you before we come back

:07:00.:07:03.

What do you make of what we have heard so far?

:07:04.:07:07.

What the police and the Security Services are doing is obviously

:07:08.:07:10.

commentedable but I think my issue is that everything you have

:07:11.:07:13.

described there is reactionary, so I'm interested to know

:07:14.:07:15.

what we are doing to prevent things like this happening.

:07:16.:07:18.

Well, like you, I found it very hard to come to terms

:07:19.:07:25.

I've got young girls like you, I've been coming out of that arena

:07:26.:07:30.

at that time of night, I can picture that scene,

:07:31.:07:32.

we all could, it could have been any of us, I think we all feel that

:07:33.:07:36.

and our hearts go out to the familieses.

:07:37.:07:40.

and our hearts go out to the families.

:07:41.:07:41.

To target children, young families in that way is unthinkably

:07:42.:07:48.

I support what the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary

:07:49.:07:51.

have done this week, they have taken decisive

:07:52.:07:53.

action and we should give them credit for that.

:07:54.:07:55.

Going forward, I think we do need a conversation about police

:07:56.:07:58.

resources with the terror threat high, with hate crime up,

:07:59.:08:02.

violent crime up, you can't keep the police funding line going down

:08:03.:08:05.

and down, we have to have a conversation about that.

:08:06.:08:07.

On your point, we have to do better at identifying people

:08:08.:08:10.

in our communities at risk of radicalisation, work

:08:11.:08:12.

with the Muslim communities, put more onus on them to help us

:08:13.:08:15.

Just to say, this has been our darkest hour.

:08:16.:08:18.

I would also say we have seen the best of Greater Manchester

:08:19.:08:21.

I couldn't be more proud of what I've seen.

:08:22.:08:26.

I'm proud of the public servants who dropped everything and came

:08:27.:08:30.

into work on Monday night, proud of the people who opened

:08:31.:08:33.

their doors to strangers and drove them around the city,

:08:34.:08:37.

I'm proud of the two homeless people who came and helped children,

:08:38.:08:40.

But most of all, I am proud of the people of Greater Manchester.

:08:41.:08:45.

They have said to the terrorists, we refuse to follow your trap

:08:46.:08:48.

and start dividing and blaming each other, we are not going to be beaten

:08:49.:08:52.

by this, we will stand together and I tell you tonight,

:08:53.:08:55.

this is the greatest City of the world and I

:08:56.:08:58.

Remember you can join in on Twitter and Facebook.

:08:59.:09:22.

Do you think it could have been possible to know about this bomb?

:09:23.:09:26.

It's hard to give a definitive answer. What I would say is that, in

:09:27.:09:32.

my view, neighbourhood policing is the first building block of an

:09:33.:09:36.

effective intelligence system. The eyes and ears on the grown in those

:09:37.:09:40.

communities feeding information back. If you allow neighbourhood

:09:41.:09:46.

policing to become too eroded and if there aren't enough police on our

:09:47.:09:49.

streets, it does become a problem. I'm not saying that did in any way

:09:50.:09:52.

contribute, it's too early to say that. I'm certainly not saying there

:09:53.:09:56.

was a problem with the number of people who responded because the

:09:57.:09:59.

response in my view was excellent, but I think we have to have a debate

:10:00.:10:03.

now about whether or not the front line police force can be put. I

:10:04.:10:07.

don't believe it can and I think I would say this now needs to become

:10:08.:10:10.

an issue in the election campaign once we have dealt with the

:10:11.:10:12.

immediate events of this week. APPLAUSE.

:10:13.:10:20.

. You, Sir, in the pink shirt? The resources were already there in

:10:21.:10:26.

2015, Theresa May the then Home Secretary was addressing the Police

:10:27.:10:30.

Federation and told them they were scaremongering because she was

:10:31.:10:33.

reducing the police numbers. The Police Federation said at the time

:10:34.:10:38.

that low level intelligence is what gives them the information and is

:10:39.:10:42.

able to feed those on to the Intelligence Services about

:10:43.:10:46.

terrorist activity. We are now 20,000 people or police officers

:10:47.:10:50.

down and we get atrocities like this. Does the Government not expect

:10:51.:10:55.

this? I have to say, I don't accept that. I have asked the head of

:10:56.:11:01.

Counter-Terrorism whether it's about resources. It is not. There may be a

:11:02.:11:05.

conversation to have about policing, we may have that at some stage but

:11:06.:11:10.

now is not that conversation. We must not imply that the terrorist

:11:11.:11:13.

activity wouldn't have taken place if there had been more policing.

:11:14.:11:16.

Good Counter-Terrorism activity is because you have a close

:11:17.:11:19.

relationship between the policing and the Intelligence Services.

:11:20.:11:24.

That's what we have. That's why the UK has the strong counterterrorist

:11:25.:11:27.

network. It's also about making sure that we get in early on

:11:28.:11:31.

radicalisation but it's not about those pure numbers on the street, as

:11:32.:11:34.

you have implied, Sir. APPLAUSE.

:11:35.:11:41.

Do you want to come back on that? It's low level intelligence which

:11:42.:11:46.

gives you the information so I think it's about the numbers. The

:11:47.:11:51.

Intelligence Services are telling us that, you know, they're tracking

:11:52.:11:54.

telephone calls, looking at e-mails, stuff like this, and again, the

:11:55.:11:58.

Chief Constable said that this is a network of people, this wasn't a

:11:59.:12:04.

loan wolf attack, this was a well-organised network. So where

:12:05.:12:07.

were the Intelligence Services and wrrn they getting that information.

:12:08.:12:11.

It's not where we get the intelligence from, it's more from

:12:12.:12:15.

the prevent strategy, which is community-led within the communities

:12:16.:12:20.

which engages with local activities, local groups, not through the police

:12:21.:12:23.

largely, it's about having a strategy to engage in the community

:12:24.:12:29.

which is community-led. You are just agreeing with my argument, we have

:12:30.:12:32.

lost the community officers. It's not about policing so much as

:12:33.:12:34.

engaging with community leaders in the area. Colin Parry? I think one

:12:35.:12:40.

to have great characteristics of the British people is that we are

:12:41.:12:45.

realists. Not necessarily idealists. The reality is that with three times

:12:46.:12:50.

the police force strength in the UK we can't possibly stop every single

:12:51.:12:53.

attack and there will be attacks that get through. That's the awful

:12:54.:13:02.

truth. I think what the Government does is perhaps in need of extra

:13:03.:13:06.

effort. That's not really a matter for me to say how many police

:13:07.:13:10.

officers we have and putting the Armed Forces on the streets is a

:13:11.:13:13.

show of strength, I don't know whether it actually makes a lot of

:13:14.:13:16.

difference. The problem is, the people that do this do it to divide

:13:17.:13:20.

the country, they want to set Muslims against, if you like, the

:13:21.:13:25.

British indigenous people and they want to cause discord and discontent

:13:26.:13:28.

and get the two groups to never talk. We have to do, as a nation, is

:13:29.:13:33.

accept that we can't live in silos, we have to integrate and accept each

:13:34.:13:38.

other, this is a multicultural, multinational multiethnic country.

:13:39.:13:43.

The sooner we recognise this, we are never going back to 1930, we have

:13:44.:13:48.

got to integrate in 2017, be friendlier, talk to each other and

:13:49.:13:51.

do things together. Civil society has to play a part.

:13:52.:13:58.

Time I wanted to ask Amber Rudd, how well thought through has been the

:13:59.:14:06.

decision to deploy troops? Obviously, the period of deployment

:14:07.:14:09.

is overlapping the beginning of the campaign season. As people begin to

:14:10.:14:13.

engage in protest and demonstrations, what are the risks

:14:14.:14:16.

that in the event that these protests become violent, that the

:14:17.:14:23.

Armed Forces could use live ammunition against protesters? What

:14:24.:14:26.

are the rules of engagement governing the relationship between

:14:27.:14:31.

the police, the Armed Forces and potential encounters with people

:14:32.:14:35.

engaging in normal political protest activity which may potentially

:14:36.:14:36.

become violent? The movement of the threat level

:14:37.:14:39.

from severe to critical, which is part of this process,

:14:40.:14:41.

is done by an independent body. I need everyone to appreciate

:14:42.:14:44.

that is not a government process, that is done by an independent body,

:14:45.:14:48.

the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre. And in terms of the troops that

:14:49.:14:51.

come from the military, they are under the authority

:14:52.:14:54.

of the police as they operate, and They go to the areas that

:14:55.:14:57.

are requested by the police, and they will make sure

:14:58.:15:03.

that they are operating And I think you should take some

:15:04.:15:05.

comfort from the fact that our military do support

:15:06.:15:10.

the police in this way. There are other incidents where

:15:11.:15:13.

they have worked together closely. And I would also say that we only

:15:14.:15:20.

expect it to be temporary. So I would hope, as was said

:15:21.:15:23.

before, that this should We are sensitive to the fact

:15:24.:15:26.

that it is during an election period but it's got nothing to do

:15:27.:15:31.

with the fact that we have this operation, we have

:15:32.:15:34.

to keep people safe, and these procedures

:15:35.:15:36.

have to be put in place. I think it's important for me

:15:37.:15:39.

to back up what we have just heard. I can say as well, this has not been

:15:40.:15:42.

a political decision. The effect of it has been to allow

:15:43.:15:46.

more police officers, specially trained police officers,

:15:47.:15:49.

to be deployed on the streets You may have seen some

:15:50.:15:51.

of them around this week. It has been an exceptionally

:15:52.:15:56.

difficult week. Of course, at the beginning

:15:57.:16:00.

of the week, there wasn't clarity about how far the network spread

:16:01.:16:03.

and what the scale of the issue In my view, the government

:16:04.:16:06.

of the right action. I think it's important

:16:07.:16:11.

for me to say that. The events on Monday evening

:16:12.:16:13.

were truly distressing. I've lived and studied in this great

:16:14.:16:20.

city for four years, and an attack on the people

:16:21.:16:23.

of Manchester is indeed I want to answer both

:16:24.:16:26.

of your questions, because I think The Government absolutely

:16:27.:16:33.

have a role to play in protecting That's probably one

:16:34.:16:37.

of their most important And my view very much is that

:16:38.:16:40.

in order to counter terrorism, to counter radicalisation,

:16:41.:16:50.

it needs to be a holistic, You need to have a bottom-up

:16:51.:16:52.

approach, where society groups, antiracism organisations,

:16:53.:16:56.

families, communities, faith institutions, mosques,

:16:57.:16:58.

for example, they all have a role. We will probably talk about this

:16:59.:17:03.

later as we talk about how to prevent radicalisation,

:17:04.:17:05.

but there is an important role that can be played

:17:06.:17:09.

from a bottom-up approach. Government has a top-down

:17:10.:17:12.

responsibility, and that includes also taking down pieces of illegal

:17:13.:17:15.

material of the internet, engaging with social media sites,

:17:16.:17:18.

for example, making sure I think it has to be very much

:17:19.:17:21.

a multipronged approach. Your second question is very

:17:22.:17:27.

pertinent, because what we have to recognise right now is that this

:17:28.:17:30.

attack that happened on Monday follows in a long line of a number

:17:31.:17:33.

of attacks that have hit this country, particularly

:17:34.:17:36.

in the last 20 years. In 2000, MI5 discovered Britain's

:17:37.:17:41.

first Islamist bomb-making factory. In 2007, Glasgow

:17:42.:17:43.

airport got attacked. We've had since that time hundreds

:17:44.:17:50.

of people who have been convicted We've had hundreds of people

:17:51.:17:53.

leave our country to join Isis, to live in their territory

:17:54.:17:56.

and support jihadist organisations. In my view, the struggle,

:17:57.:18:02.

and it is a struggle now against Islamist extremism,

:18:03.:18:04.

has increased in potency, And we have to ask ourselves,

:18:05.:18:06.

are we doing enough, are we upscaling our work

:18:07.:18:13.

to recognise the current threat. And the current threat

:18:14.:18:16.

is coming from there. And just really, really very

:18:17.:18:17.

quickly, as a country, we have stood up against fascism,

:18:18.:18:20.

racism and terrorism. During the Second World War,

:18:21.:18:22.

we stood up to fascism. We challenged the National

:18:23.:18:27.

Front in the 1970s. But the fact of the matter is that

:18:28.:18:29.

right now the biggest threat that we are facing comes

:18:30.:18:35.

from Islamist inspired terrorism, who, as Colin said,

:18:36.:18:37.

rightly want to divide us, And the fact of the matter is that

:18:38.:18:40.

if we want to defeat this threat we all have to together make

:18:41.:18:48.

a difference and play our part. We've got so many

:18:49.:18:54.

questions, I'd like to go Before I do, remember,

:18:55.:18:59.

if you are watching this at home you can join

:19:00.:19:07.

in on Twitter and Facebook. And push the red button to see

:19:08.:19:09.

what others are saying. While I am on about it,

:19:10.:19:20.

just a reminder that Question Time will be in Barnet next week,

:19:21.:19:23.

and the details are on screen in a moment and I will

:19:24.:19:26.

give them at the end. Let's have a question

:19:27.:19:28.

from Lloyd Cawthorne, please. How can we prevent Brits

:19:29.:19:30.

from being radicalised? Well, we have a strategy that

:19:31.:19:34.

perhaps is not as well My conversations with

:19:35.:19:38.

the Home Secretary's colleagues in the Home Office around

:19:39.:19:44.

the Prevent strategy, which some people booed earlier

:19:45.:19:46.

when it was mentioned. Prevent is actually

:19:47.:19:49.

just safeguarding. That was safeguarding

:19:50.:19:50.

children from sexual abuse. I've dealt with cases

:19:51.:19:56.

involving safeguarding people from going into criminality

:19:57.:19:57.

of other types. This is preventing people,

:19:58.:20:00.

safeguarding people from going down the route

:20:01.:20:03.

of extremism and radicalisation. And in a nutshell, just explain

:20:04.:20:05.

what it is that it does. People will identify the signs

:20:06.:20:08.

of somebody somewhere that might be at risk of either being a victim,

:20:09.:20:14.

or more likely, somebody that is so vulnerable

:20:15.:20:17.

that they are going to be groomed And identifying the signs and then

:20:18.:20:19.

referring that individual to an authority who provide them

:20:20.:20:28.

with mentors and support. It could be mental health support,

:20:29.:20:31.

it could be educational support. The concerns I've had around

:20:32.:20:33.

the Prevent strategy, which are historical,

:20:34.:20:37.

not my view right now because I have met with current colleagues,

:20:38.:20:40.

historically there has been poor There has been poor community

:20:41.:20:42.

engagement about it. There has been a poor

:20:43.:20:46.

narrative around this, and people really haven't understood

:20:47.:20:49.

that what it's all about is keeping our children safe and ensuring

:20:50.:20:52.

that our children don't get radicalised and don't get

:20:53.:20:54.

extracted by those people who are desperate to cultivate them,

:20:55.:20:57.

as this individual But Colin Parry, perhaps

:20:58.:21:00.

you could come in on this. There has been a lot

:21:01.:21:04.

of criticism of Prevent, because it means people telling

:21:05.:21:07.

on people in school, telling on their families

:21:08.:21:09.

and the rest of it. My foundation largely

:21:10.:21:19.

works on the principle And the early intervention happens

:21:20.:21:24.

when local authorities, Police and Crime Commissioners,

:21:25.:21:31.

local schools, identify warning signs, identify behaviours

:21:32.:21:33.

which are causing concern, and then ask organisations such

:21:34.:21:36.

as mine to apply the kind of programmes we've built up down

:21:37.:21:38.

the years to bring version people to the Peace Centre in Warrington,

:21:39.:21:44.

and then we work with them very closely and we try to strip back

:21:45.:21:47.

where the views are coming from, what they are based on,

:21:48.:21:51.

where have they been fed this often perverse and twisted ideology,

:21:52.:21:54.

and get them to mix with people And believe it or not,

:21:55.:21:57.

and I can prove this to be absolutely the case,

:21:58.:22:04.

going back to the days of the IRA, you can, if you cultivate the right

:22:05.:22:06.

atmosphere in a safe environment, you can get people who would

:22:07.:22:09.

otherwise never meet, who have no regard for each other,

:22:10.:22:11.

to eventually start I ended up with a very warm

:22:12.:22:14.

relationship with somebody that most people in this country would have

:22:15.:22:18.

never imagined I would have a warm relationship

:22:19.:22:20.

with, Martin McGuinness. You might say why the hell

:22:21.:22:22.

did Colin Parry speak The very fact is that

:22:23.:22:24.

Martin McGuinness in the end became Now, if conversation can be

:22:25.:22:28.

encouraged, if meetings can be I don't say you can cure everything

:22:29.:22:34.

but I will tell you what, Andy Burnham,

:22:35.:22:40.

you said back in June last year, "I do feel that the brand

:22:41.:22:50.

that is Prevent is so toxic now that Can you explain why you feel it's

:22:51.:22:54.

not the right approach, unless you've changed your

:22:55.:22:59.

view on it? I'm not saying that we don't need

:23:00.:23:01.

a programme that works in communities to identify people

:23:02.:23:06.

at risk of radicalisation. We most certainly do need

:23:07.:23:09.

a programme to do that. The debate is about

:23:10.:23:12.

how do we do that. And the problem is, as you said

:23:13.:23:16.

before, Prevent works on the principle that the community,

:23:17.:23:20.

the Muslim community in particular, is under suspicion,

:23:21.:23:22.

under surveillance. And I think this was felt

:23:23.:23:25.

by the Catholic community in Northern Ireland,

:23:26.:23:28.

there were policies aimed at them It can actually become

:23:29.:23:32.

counter-productive. It can actually radicalise,

:23:33.:23:36.

if people feel they So I think there is the need

:23:37.:23:38.

for a fundamental review of Prevent. It should be cross-party,

:23:39.:23:46.

this review. And I think it needs to start again,

:23:47.:23:53.

working on a basis of trust with community organisations,

:23:54.:23:56.

particularly in And let's say, be fair, we expect

:23:57.:23:57.

them to do more to help us, to provide information,

:23:58.:24:02.

to be able to take action. It's gone wrong, it's become

:24:03.:24:06.

quite a state approach. There is a statutory duty now

:24:07.:24:14.

on public bodies to report. And there was a young man

:24:15.:24:17.

on the radio this morning saying the quality of Prevent

:24:18.:24:21.

officers varies greatly. Some confuse what is normal

:24:22.:24:25.

religious activity for extremism. So you can imagine how if somebody

:24:26.:24:33.

is reported to the police for carrying out their faith,

:24:34.:24:36.

for worshipping, and all of a sudden they are under suspicion,

:24:37.:24:38.

you can imagine how that creates So I think we have

:24:39.:24:41.

to get this right. We need to get in early and identify

:24:42.:24:44.

those at risk of radicalisation. But we have to acknowledge that

:24:45.:24:49.

the current programme isn't working. And it's true, that name,

:24:50.:24:52.

Prevent, is toxic and parts And is it only the Muslim

:24:53.:24:55.

community that Prevent... Is it right-wing,

:24:56.:25:03.

English Defence League, I am sure the Home

:25:04.:25:05.

Secretary would explain. I think the point is,

:25:06.:25:11.

it's felt by the Muslim community that the resources are predominantly

:25:12.:25:14.

targeted at them. We have radicalisation

:25:15.:25:16.

on the right of politics. We've seen somebody kill my friend

:25:17.:25:19.

Jo Cox in the last year, and we need to have a debate

:25:20.:25:22.

about radicalisation I think this is the problem,

:25:23.:25:24.

that it's seen as though it's all about the Muslim community,

:25:25.:25:28.

and that creates the backlash. I think what's happening

:25:29.:25:30.

is that we need to look We can always review

:25:31.:25:34.

a strategy and can look. And going on from the terrible

:25:35.:25:44.

events that happened this week in Manchester,

:25:45.:25:46.

we owe it to the people I am delighted we have some

:25:47.:25:48.

cross-party agreement because that's what we,

:25:49.:25:51.

as a country, need to move forward. And let's not, when we start

:25:52.:25:54.

the manifesto season again for the next couple of weeks,

:25:55.:25:56.

please let's remember that by cooperating we will

:25:57.:25:59.

get further quicker. And I definitely think that's

:26:00.:26:05.

what I'd like to see moving forward. I'm concerned about

:26:06.:26:08.

what Andy was saying. I think anybody who's prepared

:26:09.:26:11.

to do the sort of things we've seen recently,

:26:12.:26:15.

in terms radical Islamic terrorism, anybody who does that on the basis

:26:16.:26:20.

that we've got a Prevent strategy, which is trying to help people,

:26:21.:26:23.

actually, there is something wrong I think the problem

:26:24.:26:26.

comes from the mosques. I've got something I wanted to read

:26:27.:26:32.

you which actually came from Didsbury mosque,

:26:33.:26:35.

because I spend my time actually And this is direct

:26:36.:26:37.

from Didsbury mosque. This is a leaflet I was

:26:38.:26:42.

given on an open day. And this says, "Living in a society

:26:43.:26:46.

in which people have accepted Western lifestyle as their way

:26:47.:26:49.

of life brings immorality Modesty, shame and honour have no

:26:50.:26:51.

place in Western civilisation". That is direct from Didsbury mosque,

:26:52.:27:00.

and that was given in a very And that is what Muslims

:27:01.:27:03.

are listening to. There are a lot of good

:27:04.:27:12.

Muslims, but they are not All right, from the

:27:13.:27:15.

woman there in blue. The Muslim community has been

:27:16.:27:21.

accused by some politicians and media anchors of not doing

:27:22.:27:32.

enough, and almost in denial, or even complicit with

:27:33.:27:36.

the threat of extremism. Yet the Manchester Muslim community,

:27:37.:27:43.

at risk to themselves, reported Salman Abedi

:27:44.:27:45.

for his militant views. Isn't this a catastrophic failure

:27:46.:27:47.

of Theresa May's security, What do you make of what the man up

:27:48.:27:50.

there said about the pamphlet All I can say that I have been

:27:51.:28:05.

an attendee of Didsbury mosque for 30 years or so,

:28:06.:28:10.

and Didsbury mosque is a mosque that opens its doors to non-Muslims

:28:11.:28:13.

every week on a Sunday. It's a mosque that invites

:28:14.:28:15.

in women, men, people And where that has come

:28:16.:28:18.

from, I don't know. That's absolutely correct,

:28:19.:28:22.

and that was given to me You get tea and biscuits,

:28:23.:28:24.

very nice people. I got involved, having

:28:25.:28:31.

debates with young women. Two lines taken out of context

:28:32.:28:39.

about Didsbury mosque is unfair. How is talking about Western

:28:40.:28:42.

civilisation out of context? We don't know who handed it

:28:43.:28:49.

to you, or who wrote it. It's a charity leaflet that's given

:28:50.:28:52.

out officially from Didsbury mosque I want people to listen

:28:53.:28:59.

to me very carefully. I was born in Manchester,

:29:00.:29:09.

I was raised in Manchester. I am a proud Manc

:29:10.:29:14.

and a proud Muslim. And I'm hurting after

:29:15.:29:16.

what happened on Monday. And what happened on Monday

:29:17.:29:21.

night was an evil act, an abhorrent act that

:29:22.:29:30.

should be condemned And to think that somebody can

:29:31.:29:31.

target small girls, and anybody, but small girls in particular,

:29:32.:29:42.

to carry out evil, should be said I'm sitting next to a reverend here,

:29:43.:29:45.

a friend that I've known And it seems that Muslims seem to be

:29:46.:29:50.

the target and collateral damage Islam is not the reason that

:29:51.:29:54.

people do bad things. People do bad things

:29:55.:29:58.

because they are evil And I think that after these things

:29:59.:29:59.

happen, Islamophobia increases. Let us please not let

:30:00.:30:03.

people who hate and want We should work together,

:30:04.:30:06.

stand shoulder to shoulder and say we will not accept hate and we stand

:30:07.:30:12.

against Islamophobia, and we condemn all sorts

:30:13.:30:14.

of evil in all its forms. We have veered away from the

:30:15.:30:32.

original question, how we prevent Brits from radicalisation. You have

:30:33.:30:39.

heard what Andy Burnham saying the right signal not being sent out.

:30:40.:30:45.

What is your answer? I met a woman recently who came home and found her

:30:46.:30:51.

16-year-old son had just gone, just gone to Syria and she hasn't been in

:30:52.:30:55.

touch with him, she probably won't see him again. She calleded for help

:30:56.:31:01.

and the Prevent coordinator sent someone to see her who was able to

:31:02.:31:05.

engage with her and her other children. There was two teenage

:31:06.:31:11.

girls who needed the support that was available through the Prevent

:31:12.:31:16.

strategy to make sure that they didn't become radicalised as she had

:31:17.:31:21.

as well, or as her brother had. Last year, it stopped, we stopped 150

:31:22.:31:25.

people from going to Syria to fight, of which 50 were children. There is

:31:26.:31:37.

really strong evidence of Prevent initiatives stopping

:31:38.:31:38.

deradicalisation and saving people's lives. I would like everybody's help

:31:39.:31:42.

here making sure we speak up for the good work that is done by Prevent.

:31:43.:31:47.

The foundation for peace here is one of the largest providers in the

:31:48.:31:51.

area. Andy, I don't think you would criticise the foundation for peace

:31:52.:31:57.

for the fantastic work that they do. We have 142 community-led

:31:58.:32:01.

organisations. This is not about police-led, it's about community-led

:32:02.:32:05.

organisations, we do exactly as Ian said, safeguard young people. When

:32:06.:32:11.

you say you stopped 150 people last year going to Syria, do you mean you

:32:12.:32:14.

wouldn't allow them to leave the country or do you mean you think you

:32:15.:32:17.

prevented them from leaving the country? There is more evidence of

:32:18.:32:23.

stopping them at the airport but there's evidence we've stopped 150

:32:24.:32:27.

people. I can't draw on any more detail than that. I do feel that we

:32:28.:32:34.

need to be stronger about the fact that Prevent is saving lives and

:32:35.:32:37.

helping people. It's doing good work and I would like more support trying

:32:38.:32:41.

to make sure that we get the message out. The final point I was trying to

:32:42.:32:45.

get over is that it's community-led, it's not about getting policemen

:32:46.:32:49.

involved, it's about making sure the local organisations like the

:32:50.:32:52.

foundation for peace are able to engage with young people on that

:32:53.:32:57.

level. It's not about the Government being, as Sara said, bottom up, it's

:32:58.:33:00.

about the Government providing support for the communities to work

:33:01.:33:01.

it out. APPLAUSE.

:33:02.:33:06.

You, Sir? To Amber Rudd. It's not about getting the police involved -

:33:07.:33:10.

where's my security, where are all these people's security coming from?

:33:11.:33:15.

We have PCSOs on the street that walk about with every other bit of

:33:16.:33:19.

kit I've seen including handcuffs that they do not have the power of

:33:20.:33:23.

arrest to use. Where's the security coming from? Where's MI5 in all of

:33:24.:33:29.

this? We have no mention of this tonight. We've got 13.3 billion a

:33:30.:33:38.

year going out to foreign aid. No, hold on a second... Money that

:33:39.:33:42.

should be saved in this country and looking after ourselves and I'm

:33:43.:33:45.

talking about everybody here. It doesn't matter what colour or creed

:33:46.:33:49.

we are, we look after ourselves first. OK. Let us secure this

:33:50.:33:55.

country. I can say that we have given additional funding to the

:33:56.:33:59.

Security Services, they got a 30% uplift because we are making sure we

:34:00.:34:03.

do invest in the Security Services. You are sending people to a country

:34:04.:34:07.

that has a space programme and a nuclear war programme. You, Sir? Do

:34:08.:34:14.

you agree with him? I have a slightly different point on

:34:15.:34:16.

radicalisation. We have taken off the lid. The perpetrator of this

:34:17.:34:21.

latest crime was Libyan, so we removed Gaddafi. We have had others

:34:22.:34:25.

come from various Muslim countries and we've removed Saddam Hussein.

:34:26.:34:29.

Why this Government, even Labour or Conservative before them, has taken

:34:30.:34:32.

us to places we don't understand the cultures or the politics of the

:34:33.:34:37.

people and why we have tried to be the policemen of the world I fail to

:34:38.:34:42.

understand because if we take our resources away from these

:34:43.:34:46.

activities, we could have the resources that Colin Parry and Sara

:34:47.:34:50.

Khan require because we could fund the integration and openness that we

:34:51.:34:53.

need. Instead, we are still in Afghanistan spending billions and

:34:54.:34:56.

it's just crazy. Sara Khan? I agree with Nazir when

:34:57.:35:05.

he says there appears to be a real misunderstanding about the aims and

:35:06.:35:10.

objectives of Prevent. Let's be very clear about what space Prevent

:35:11.:35:14.

operates in. It's not desirable or possible for the state to start

:35:15.:35:19.

arresting people because they become radicalised. You could become

:35:20.:35:22.

radicalised when you have not committed a criminal offence. So

:35:23.:35:28.

what do you do with the individuals? That's the space Prevent operates

:35:29.:35:33.

in. You hear people saying that it's about spying and surveillance, none

:35:34.:35:37.

of these things are relevant to Prevent at all, they are part of

:35:38.:35:42.

Pursue, another strand of the Government's Counter-Terrorism

:35:43.:35:46.

strategy. People often conflate Prevent with Pursue. This is a basic

:35:47.:35:50.

understanding and I would like to see the Government educate people

:35:51.:35:54.

about what is Prevent and what Prevent isn't. It's important also

:35:55.:35:59.

to recognise that it's not Prevent that is taxic, it's the discourse

:36:00.:36:02.

around Prevent that has become toxic. It's not the Prevent strategy

:36:03.:36:09.

that is the problem, it's the politicisation around Prevent which

:36:10.:36:13.

is increasingly becoming a problem. I've seen politicians, for example,

:36:14.:36:19.

make unfounded claims about Prevent saying that if a Muslim child no

:36:20.:36:24.

longer decides to eat at McDonald's, that will lead to a Prevent

:36:25.:36:29.

referral. Nonsense. I've sheered many false untruths about Prevent.

:36:30.:36:32.

How will that encourage trust between Muslims who want to do this

:36:33.:36:35.

work and with the Government? It doesn't. I'm going to really have to

:36:36.:36:42.

point this out also, the fact is in this country we have Muslim-led

:36:43.:36:45.

organisations who're actively seeking to make sure Prevent fails,

:36:46.:36:53.

and that is no surprise to anybody since 2011, organisations like Alma

:36:54.:36:58.

hajj ran which is prescribed run by the infamous am January Chowdry,

:36:59.:37:02.

they were at the forefront of saying, we see in Prevent a direct

:37:03.:37:08.

challenge to our attempt of trying to radicalise young Muslims -- Anjam

:37:09.:37:14.

Channel 4 Newsry. You are seeing them taking up that baton and

:37:15.:37:24.

spreading lies. Can I ask you about the work Prevent is doing, have you

:37:25.:37:32.

come across people saying to you, what the British Government is doing

:37:33.:37:38.

in our name is something we abhor? There is no black-and-white answer

:37:39.:37:41.

to this issue of foreign policy which we talk about all the time.

:37:42.:37:45.

When we look at people like Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ring leader of

:37:46.:37:50.

7/7, he made clear one of his prime motivations was our country's

:37:51.:37:55.

involvement in the Iraq war in 2003. I come across 13-year-old girls who

:37:56.:37:58.

tell me that they want to go and live in Isis caliphate because they

:37:59.:38:02.

think it's some sort of Islamic Disneyland. These girls weren't even

:38:03.:38:08.

born before the Iraq war in 2003, so foreign policy has no relevance to

:38:09.:38:16.

those individuals. They have been online, they have been reading

:38:17.:38:22.

Islamist propaganda and Isis propaganda which we are not

:38:23.:38:25.

countering enough. What are the parents doing about it? We have to

:38:26.:38:31.

have a multipronged approach. My organisation's delivered

:38:32.:38:34.

counternarratives to ideaologyists, to Muslim parents to equip them to

:38:35.:38:37.

build resilience in children. I want to make another point very quickly.

:38:38.:38:42.

We have to look at what Isis have said. Last year - they have an

:38:43.:38:48.

English online magazine - one of their editions last year, they made

:38:49.:38:53.

it clear foreign policy isn't the reason they seek to attack and kill

:38:54.:38:57.

us. They clearly said, we hate you first and foremost because you are

:38:58.:39:00.

disbelievers, because of our secular liberal values. That's what Isis

:39:01.:39:11.

themselves are saying. I want to come back... Andy Burnham? The

:39:12.:39:15.

individuals that commit these acts, and this was true in Paris as well,

:39:16.:39:21.

they did not live a devout Muslim lifestyle, they're not true Muslims

:39:22.:39:24.

in any way shape or form. The problem I hear is that the idea that

:39:25.:39:28.

the person who committed this awful atrocity this week or who attacked

:39:29.:39:33.

Westminster, suggestions that they in some way represent the Muslim

:39:34.:39:40.

community, they no more represent the Muslim community as the person

:39:41.:39:50.

who killed Jo Cox represents the white community. With respect, Sara

:39:51.:39:56.

Khan, you don't understand the Muslim community. I've just complete

:39:57.:40:05.

add both thesis event. I work in a school safeguarding, we don't want

:40:06.:40:09.

children radicalises, but the NUT said suspicion in the classroom,

:40:10.:40:12.

confusion in the staff room, that's what it's causing. We want the

:40:13.:40:18.

principles of Prevent, none of us want radicalisation but let's be

:40:19.:40:22.

clear that for Prevent to work, it has to first of all get on board and

:40:23.:40:27.

has to be community-led, not just with Government favourite

:40:28.:40:30.

organisations with grass root organisations like organisations I

:40:31.:40:34.

work with in Manchester so I think it needs to appeal to everybody and

:40:35.:40:38.

we are all on board with the principles of prevent no doubt.

:40:39.:40:42.

Let's root out the causes of terrorism. Let's not try and

:40:43.:40:48.

focus... Prevent duty guidance actually says how do you spot a

:40:49.:40:53.

terrorist basically and the chief reviewer David Anderson, his own

:40:54.:40:58.

report mentions certain facts that changes need to be made. The Home

:40:59.:41:04.

Secretary, the few examples that you quoted, I do agree there could be

:41:05.:41:09.

some benefit and I read about those examples where families were

:41:10.:41:12.

comforted. Those are far and few between. The channel referrals that

:41:13.:41:16.

have caused damage, the incorrect channel referrals unfortunately

:41:17.:41:19.

because it's maybe lack of experience have caused far more

:41:20.:41:22.

damage within innocent families. Thank you very much. Nazir?

:41:23.:41:26.

APPLAUSE. Can I say, what you said is

:41:27.:41:29.

absolutely right. There are some issues around the training, there

:41:30.:41:32.

are some issues in the way it's implemented. I think you used the

:41:33.:41:38.

word it's a "new" approach and people are overzealous some times in

:41:39.:41:40.

how they apply it and some people don't understand what they are

:41:41.:41:44.

doing. That is being dealt with, I assure you. In terms of the

:41:45.:41:49.

religious theology behind this, I'm a British Muslim, you don't love

:41:50.:41:52.

your... It's like having two children, you don't love your first

:41:53.:41:55.

child any less when you have a second. I'm absolutely delighted and

:41:56.:41:58.

proud to be born in this country and to live in this country and I was

:41:59.:42:03.

Chief Prosecutor, I didn't go out blowing people up or wanting to harm

:42:04.:42:05.

somebody so there's something else going on here. There are examples

:42:06.:42:08.

which the Home Secretary referred to. One guy on his way to Syria to

:42:09.:42:13.

join Isis, the last thing he wrote was a book called Islam for Dummies.

:42:14.:42:18.

He knew he needed something... That is the point. I get that but he

:42:19.:42:22.

needed something to get through the recruitment process. Religion wasn't

:42:23.:42:29.

what drove him. There was grievances, redemption, ego. How

:42:30.:42:32.

many of the people working for Isis suddenly become commanders of a

:42:33.:42:36.

platoon of two. They go there for all sorts of reasons. That's why we

:42:37.:42:40.

have to have an approach that isn't one-size-fits-all but that does work

:42:41.:42:42.

with the communities, absolutely. All right. A number of hands up. I

:42:43.:42:49.

want to take a question from Shelley Blackstone, please?

:42:50.:42:55.

Isn't it about time that anyone who is a suspected terrorist should be

:42:56.:43:02.

thrown out of the UK immediately? Amber Rudd? I think that's quite a

:43:03.:43:09.

difficult definition to have - anyone who is a suspected terrorist.

:43:10.:43:13.

As Sara said, you have got a situation where people are becoming

:43:14.:43:17.

radicalised, maybe having radical thoughts but it doesn't mean they

:43:18.:43:19.

have committed a crime. We have the rule of law, we have to make sure

:43:20.:43:25.

that we do it correctly. Don't think that we are not making

:43:26.:43:30.

sure, that we are keeping everybody protected. We have our strategy on

:43:31.:43:34.

Prevent which is controversial, as we have heard tonight, but I think

:43:35.:43:38.

stopping people becoming radicalised still. We have an Intelligence

:43:39.:43:42.

Service working close with the police delivering results. 18

:43:43.:43:47.

serious plots have been foiled since 2013. They do fantastic work to keep

:43:48.:43:53.

us safe. We will take action, of course, where we see that there are

:43:54.:43:58.

terrorist or potential terrorist conversations. The Intelligence

:43:59.:44:01.

Services are doing their jobs well in order to do this. Your answer is,

:44:02.:44:06.

you can't throw people out of the UK because they're a suspected

:44:07.:44:10.

terrorist, but you do say in your Conservative manifesto we are going

:44:11.:44:14.

to consider new criminal offences that might be created to defeat

:44:15.:44:18.

terrorism. What kind of new criminal offences are you going to consider

:44:19.:44:20.

creating? Well, it will depend what comes out

:44:21.:44:24.

of our various initiatives We're going to have a commission

:44:25.:44:27.

on extremism, to find out We want to tackle this in a way that

:44:28.:44:32.

I hope will engage the communities But terrorists, don't forget,

:44:33.:44:39.

also come from abroad, so we work internationally

:44:40.:44:43.

with other countries, with European partners,

:44:44.:44:44.

with other countries from further afield, particularly trying to spot

:44:45.:44:46.

any returning foreign fighters, to make sure they don't get

:44:47.:44:48.

into the country, as well as looking But British fighters who go abroad,

:44:49.:44:51.

you can't do anything about them Well, we have a lot of tools

:44:52.:44:55.

at our disposal to try and make sure that we stop them coming back

:44:56.:45:00.

where we can. But if they do come back,

:45:01.:45:02.

we have the evidence But on the point that you make,

:45:03.:45:05.

new criminal offences, from what I hear from you,

:45:06.:45:09.

you are not really thinking You are just saying

:45:10.:45:12.

you are going to consider it. No, we are thinking

:45:13.:45:16.

about new criminal offences. I can't be drawn on that

:45:17.:45:17.

at the moment, I'm afraid, David. Because you don't know

:45:18.:45:22.

the answer, or because... I just don't want to have

:45:23.:45:24.

that discussion here. It would be difficult

:45:25.:45:27.

to have right here. Sara Khan, what do you make

:45:28.:45:30.

of the point that we should be much rougher, tougher

:45:31.:45:35.

on suspected terrorists? I agree with the Home Secretary

:45:36.:45:36.

that when we are talking about suspected terrorists,

:45:37.:45:40.

the idea that we throw people like that out

:45:41.:45:42.

of our country is not the way Look, we have to stand

:45:43.:45:45.

for our values. That includes the rule of law,

:45:46.:45:51.

standing for human rights. I fundamentally believe

:45:52.:45:54.

that the best way we are going to win this battle against extremism

:45:55.:45:56.

is through the prism Already, we are seeing people

:45:57.:45:59.

who are being convicted. There have been around 269 people

:46:00.:46:04.

convicted between the period Also, we have to be very careful

:46:05.:46:10.

when we are saying this person We have to go through the rule

:46:11.:46:18.

of law, and I think that's I just can't get over

:46:19.:46:22.

what happened on Monday. And had anybody known

:46:23.:46:32.

that he was capable of what he was capable

:46:33.:46:34.

of doing, you know... I don't think there's a single

:46:35.:46:39.

person in this room who is not feeling what you're saying and does

:46:40.:46:43.

not have sympathy with But throwing them out is not the way

:46:44.:46:46.

of solving this problem. It's about dealing with having

:46:47.:46:50.

a multi pronged strategy. We can counter this in a much

:46:51.:46:53.

more effective manner. If you want to throw them anywhere,

:46:54.:46:56.

throw them into my Peace Centre and we will take as long as it takes

:46:57.:47:05.

to try and change the way We've got ample

:47:06.:47:09.

evidence we can do it. We reintegrate them into British

:47:10.:47:15.

society as best we can. We cannot abandon the rule

:47:16.:47:20.

of law and say, you are First of all, I would like to say

:47:21.:47:22.

that my thoughts and prayers are with the victims

:47:23.:47:36.

and their families. I'm a British Muslim and I'm very

:47:37.:47:39.

proud of my heritage. And there is an elephant

:47:40.:47:50.

in the room here. And unfortunately, it is very

:47:51.:47:57.

unfortunate, there is an issue with regards to radicalisation

:47:58.:47:59.

and extremism that does exist That is something

:48:00.:48:01.

that we have to accept. I would like to go back

:48:02.:48:10.

to what the gentleman over there was saying,

:48:11.:48:16.

when he referenced a mosque. Yes, we do have an issue

:48:17.:48:18.

within our mosques, We have children being taught the

:48:19.:48:20.

Wahhabi interpretation of the Koran. We have Saudi trained clerics

:48:21.:48:27.

coming in and speaking I would say, for now, temporarily,

:48:28.:48:29.

close down all Saudi- And I myself as a

:48:30.:48:44.

Muslim am a Muslim. Not only do we have our own

:48:45.:48:58.

home-grown terrorists, but terrorism is also being imported

:48:59.:49:01.

right under our noses. There are no Saudi funded

:49:02.:49:03.

mosques in the UK. There used to be money

:49:04.:49:13.

that was brought in from abroad but that has all stopped

:49:14.:49:25.

a long time ago. Are there no Wahhabi preachers

:49:26.:49:31.

and no Saudi money at all? There is a difference between Saudi

:49:32.:49:33.

money and Wahhabi preachers. Can you pick up the point of

:49:34.:49:39.

the Muslim woman who said you have to face the fact that there is a lot

:49:40.:49:49.

of language of, radical language I don't go to any meeting, for

:49:50.:49:52.

example, which is exclusively men. I ensure that if they invite me

:49:53.:49:57.

to a place of worship, We have to confront them

:49:58.:50:00.

when they are coming up with the kinds of things you have

:50:01.:50:06.

just identified yourself. Because that's how, sadly,

:50:07.:50:08.

this generates even more hate. How they generate difference

:50:09.:50:10.

as well, which is something that But at the same time,

:50:11.:50:12.

the communities themselves One of the things I'm doing

:50:13.:50:16.

is setting up a community Cobra, which is made up of not the usual

:50:17.:50:24.

suspects, but people perhaps like you, you might want to join,

:50:25.:50:27.

who are young, who understand the issues and work together to try

:50:28.:50:29.

and develop solutions. And I think that's

:50:30.:50:32.

what we need to do. There is a deficit in Muslim

:50:33.:50:38.

leadership in this country. The vast majority, the majority

:50:39.:50:42.

of Muslims are now under 25, female The leaders are male, over 50

:50:43.:50:45.

from middle-class backgrounds. Well, you stop talking,

:50:46.:50:51.

sadly, to people like me. You stop talking to the older

:50:52.:50:59.

generation, the people who claim The white community don't

:51:00.:51:01.

have community leaders. Why do we suddenly assume that

:51:02.:51:04.

minorities have community leaders? We start talking to

:51:05.:51:07.

people in students land. We get them into the room

:51:08.:51:12.

and talk to them about how Let me have one quick

:51:13.:51:15.

question from Assad Riaz, and then I want to go back

:51:16.:51:25.

to the other point. To what extent have the leaked

:51:26.:51:28.

security details jeopardised our I want to put this to you,

:51:29.:51:41.

Amber Rudd, and also to what extent it may have jeopardised

:51:42.:51:45.

the police investigations here. I took it up with Secretary Kelly

:51:46.:51:47.

and the Attorney General and made very clear that they needed to sort

:51:48.:51:51.

the situation out. The Prime Minister has spoken

:51:52.:51:54.

to President Trump today and he has I understand today that the head

:51:55.:51:57.

of counterterrorism has said that I don't believe it has

:51:58.:52:02.

damaged the investigation, In the short term,

:52:03.:52:09.

what was so upsetting about it was that it must have been

:52:10.:52:17.

such a terrible thing for the families to see, when this

:52:18.:52:21.

was a well-run investigation. Actually, our newspapers had

:52:22.:52:24.

behaved well in terms of working with investigators,

:52:25.:52:26.

not releasing information So I think it was very hard

:52:27.:52:27.

on the families but I hope From the minute the attack happened,

:52:28.:52:32.

information was beginning I raised it with the US ambassador

:52:33.:52:37.

earlier in the week and said, The lead investigator has to control

:52:38.:52:42.

the release of information, the British police,

:52:43.:52:46.

because otherwise you can I said that and then

:52:47.:52:52.

it happened again. Families were in a hotel

:52:53.:52:55.

in Manchester, not even able to go to the scene,

:52:56.:52:58.

and yet there were pictures It's absolutely outrageous

:52:59.:53:01.

what has happened this week. It is arrogant of the Americans,

:53:02.:53:04.

and it is disrespectful Most importantly, the families

:53:05.:53:09.

of those who died and It's my job to speak up for

:53:10.:53:14.

the people of Greater Manchester. Well, I think at this stage,

:53:15.:53:20.

the damage is manageable I don't think there has

:53:21.:53:24.

been any serious damage. But there is an important

:53:25.:53:32.

point of principle here. I don't want a diplomatic row,

:53:33.:53:34.

but this cannot happen again, and we need to make

:53:35.:53:37.

that absolutely clear. I want to end with a question

:53:38.:53:39.

from Irfan Munir, please. My eight-year-old English daughter

:53:40.:53:44.

asked me why her friends What can be done to stop

:53:45.:53:46.

hate towards Muslims? That happened yesterday,

:53:47.:53:51.

and also the journey I had to explain

:53:52.:53:56.

to her what a bomb is. It was an absolutely horrendous

:53:57.:54:02.

journey into work this morning. Sara Khan, we only have a couple

:54:03.:54:11.

of minutes, but what can be done? It's absolutely horrendous

:54:12.:54:15.

that we hear this. Even the NSPCC and ChildLine

:54:16.:54:18.

and other organisations are picking up the fact that there are Muslim

:54:19.:54:21.

children experiencing this kind And for me this is part

:54:22.:54:23.

of a wider issue, really. It's about how we talk about

:54:24.:54:28.

British Muslims in this country. Trying to promote British Muslims

:54:29.:54:31.

as a homogenous community is not the right way of dealing

:54:32.:54:36.

with the situation. The fact of the matter

:54:37.:54:38.

is we have to recognise There is a positive trend among

:54:39.:54:41.

Muslims who are integrated, contributing to our country

:54:42.:54:52.

in all sorts of manners, serving in the Armed Forces,

:54:53.:54:54.

doctors, in the arts, But at the same time,

:54:55.:54:57.

we have to recognise that there is a negative trend

:54:58.:55:00.

amongst some British Muslims who oppose democracy,

:55:01.:55:12.

who despise different interpretations and pluralistic

:55:13.:55:16.

interpretations of the religion. We have to counter those negative

:55:17.:55:18.

people, because it's what you said, Because that counters and feeds

:55:19.:55:21.

that kind of narrative. We've got to show that it is not

:55:22.:55:28.

a homogenous Muslim community. The worry is that increasingly

:55:29.:55:31.

British people will think all Muslims are terrorists,

:55:32.:55:36.

because the hard-line people who print those leaflets

:55:37.:55:38.

that this chap mentioned, who are the very extreme end

:55:39.:55:40.

of the Muslim faith, are those who are discrediting

:55:41.:55:42.

the whole of the Muslim faith. The overwhelming majority of Muslim

:55:43.:55:45.

people are the same as the rest of us in this country,

:55:46.:55:48.

whatever our faith, good people. But your poor kid is going

:55:49.:55:51.

to get tagged with that. That's exactly what

:55:52.:55:53.

the bomber wants. Absolutely, what Colin

:55:54.:55:54.

said is right, this I am glad she was able to open up

:55:55.:56:02.

to you and you could Ultimately, as parents we need

:56:03.:56:12.

to talk to our children and that's I think part of the answer is to be

:56:13.:56:17.

careful with language. People talk about Muslim terrorism,

:56:18.:56:22.

or Islamic terrorism, and that suggests that this

:56:23.:56:24.

is the whole of the Muslim That is very dangerous,

:56:25.:56:26.

if you suggest that is the case. I think the BBC are wrong to say

:56:27.:56:30.

so-called Islamic State. They should call them Daesh,

:56:31.:56:33.

because don't give them the kind of impression that they represent

:56:34.:56:36.

the whole Muslim community. These people that are involved

:56:37.:56:38.

in this terrible act They should be described as such

:56:39.:56:40.

and they should not be described in a way that casts this kind

:56:41.:56:49.

of terrible sense of gloom and despair over

:56:50.:56:52.

the Muslim community. Colin Parry's absolutely right

:56:53.:56:55.

to say what he just said. These individuals do not represent

:56:56.:56:58.

the Muslim community in Greater Manchester,

:56:59.:57:00.

and that needs to be pointed out Your daughter had the confidence

:57:01.:57:02.

to report it to you. We need to make sure that everybody

:57:03.:57:15.

has the confidence to call out hate The first thing I did

:57:16.:57:18.

as Home Secretary was to publish Now, more than ever,

:57:19.:57:22.

we need to make sure that people have the confidence

:57:23.:57:25.

to report hate crime. And we will particularly engage

:57:26.:57:27.

with the schools to ensure that they have the ability

:57:28.:57:30.

and the information they need over this difficult period to engage

:57:31.:57:32.

with young people as well. Thank you very much,

:57:33.:57:38.

everybody, and I'm sorry to those of you have your hands up

:57:39.:57:42.

and have not been able to get in. Question Time is going to be

:57:43.:57:46.

in Barnet next week. Then we have leaders'

:57:47.:57:53.

specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, one

:57:54.:57:55.

after the And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron

:57:56.:57:56.

on Sunday 4th Jne in Edinburgh. And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron

:57:57.:58:06.

on Sunday 4th June in Edinburgh. If you want to put questions

:58:07.:58:09.

to those leaders, details of how If you are listening on 5Live

:58:10.:58:13.

there's reaction to what's been said panellists who came here tonight,

:58:14.:58:19.

and particular thanks to all of you who came here to take

:58:20.:58:25.

part in this debate. From Salford, in Greater Manchester,

:58:26.:58:27.

and from Question until next

:58:28.:58:32.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Salford in Greater Manchester. On the panel are home secretary Amber Rudd, mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham, anti-extremism campaigner Sara Khan, head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association Nazir Afzal, and peace campaigner Colin Parry.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS