25/05/2017 Question Time

Tonight, we're in Salford in Greater Manchester for a special

programme focusing on the impact of Monday's shocking events

With us tonight, Home Secretary Amber Rudd.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester and former Cabinet

Colin Parry who set up the Tim Parry Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace

after his son died in the Warrington bombings in 1993.

The counter-extremism campaigner and former advisor

And the head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association

and former Chief Prosecutor for North West England Nazir Afzal.

Election campaigning remains suspended until tomorrow so we don't

have our usual multi-party panel for tonight's Question Time,

We take our first question from Darren Halcott, please.

As a father of three young girls living here in Manchester,

I find it hard to come to terms with Monday night's atrocities.

What decisive action should Government take

What actions should the Government take, Amber Rudd?

I find it hard to come to terms with as well as a mother of two children.

The important thing for us to do now is to concentrate

on allowing the police and the Intelligence Services

There may be lessons to learn afterwards.

We have some very strong Counter-Terrorism programmes

in place which we may discuss later today, but I think the important

thing now is to allow the operation to complete.

It's an ongoing investigation and what we saw on Tuesday or Monday

But we also saw some extraordinary compassion and strength

It's something that the emergency services, the NHS had rehearsed

But when it did happen, the operation worked incredibly

smoothly and I would like to take the opportunity, if I may,

to thank the emergency services and the NHS staff

And what was the point of bringing the army out on to the streets?

We have been at threat level of severe since 2013.

We have moved to critical because it's an ongoing operation.

The fact is that when it's at that stage, we have the option to call

in Operation Tempera which allows army military support to be drawn

It will allow, I hope, Sir, for you and your family to feel

more secure when you go around your every day life.

In this period of critical which we hope will only last a few

days, it could be longer, it will depend on the operation,

we have pulled out additional support from the army so that we can

Events in Manchester and further afield can take place with extra

Nazia Afzal, Do you agree That that is the proper action to take?

It's necessary at the moment because it's an ongoing investigation.

We have had this before, the second or third time in ten

years where we've had to go to what should haves

years where we've had to go to what involves

the Armed Forces behind the wire to enable police officers to go out

I think it's a necessary thing but previous examples tell us it

only lasts five or seven days, so once we have got this inquiry

to a point where we are safe, then the army can go back to doing

To answer the gentleman's question, I love Manchester, I've

I am amazed at your resilience, your tolerance.

I was at the vigil on Tuesday night with colleagues here, some of them,

and I was touched by it all and I cried.

I cried when people started chanting "Manchester,

Manchester, Manchester", I cried today when people

were having a one-minute silence and people started singing,

don't look back in anger immediately afterwards.

That is what Manchester is special for.

In terms of what you do now, you do what I've done,

which is to have a conversation with your children because they're

probably keeping things to themselves and it's about giving

them the ability to talk about what they feel.

They're doing it in their schools but we can do it in our homes.

Darren's question was, what decisive action

They should do what the Home Secretary said, allow the police

I know Greater Manchester Police well being the Chief Prosecutor

They're extremely effective when it comes to serious and organised crime

and I know how effective they are in this operation.

At the same time, there is a conversation we'll have

during the course of this evening about what needs to happen

around deradicalisation, what more we can do around

controlling the threat that we are facing, how we can

ensure that we get more information from the communities,

people know now that much of what we know about that

particular suspect, or that particular bomber,

let's put it bluntly, came from the communities

So how do we engage, how do we ensure the people are able

to provide information so the Security Services

But you're involved closely with the police.

When the Chief Constable of Manchester said "I think it's

clear that this is a network that we are investigating",

were you surprised at that, given that the police,

the job of the police is to spot these networks before they emerge?

I'm not going to speak for policing tonight,

I don't speak for the commissioners, but what I can tell you based

We've had sadly a number of incidents across Europe

which have been low level in terms of sophistication, a man

with a knife, a truck that caused enormous damage and misery.

What we have had here, as we all know, is somebody

with a little bit more sophistication and evidently

the evidence is suggesting a wider network involved.

I know for a fact that Greater Manchester Police

That's part of the reason why we've gone to getting the Armed Forces

to support certainly allow police officers to be out doing

So I'm satisfied that the police are doing a phenomenal job this time

around but they're doing it with the assistance

Darren, let me come back to you before we come back

What do you make of what we have heard so far?

What the police and the Security Services are doing is obviously

commentedable but I think my issue is that everything you have

described there is reactionary, so I'm interested to know

what we are doing to prevent things like this happening.

Well, like you, I found it very hard to come to terms

I've got young girls like you, I've been coming out of that arena

at that time of night, I can picture that scene,

we all could, it could have been any of us, I think we all feel that

and our hearts go out to the familieses.

and our hearts go out to the families.

To target children, young families in that way is unthinkably

I support what the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary

have done this week, they have taken decisive

action and we should give them credit for that.

Going forward, I think we do need a conversation about police

resources with the terror threat high, with hate crime up,

violent crime up, you can't keep the police funding line going down

and down, we have to have a conversation about that.

On your point, we have to do better at identifying people

in our communities at risk of radicalisation, work

with the Muslim communities, put more onus on them to help us

Just to say, this has been our darkest hour.

I would also say we have seen the best of Greater Manchester

I couldn't be more proud of what I've seen.

I'm proud of the public servants who dropped everything and came

into work on Monday night, proud of the people who opened

their doors to strangers and drove them around the city,

I'm proud of the two homeless people who came and helped children,

But most of all, I am proud of the people of Greater Manchester.

They have said to the terrorists, we refuse to follow your trap

and start dividing and blaming each other, we are not going to be beaten

by this, we will stand together and I tell you tonight,

this is the greatest City of the world and I

Remember you can join in on Twitter and Facebook.

Do you think it could have been possible to know about this bomb?

It's hard to give a definitive answer. What I would say is that, in

my view, neighbourhood policing is the first building block of an

effective intelligence system. The eyes and ears on the grown in those

communities feeding information back. If you allow neighbourhood

policing to become too eroded and if there aren't enough police on our

streets, it does become a problem. I'm not saying that did in any way

contribute, it's too early to say that. I'm certainly not saying there

was a problem with the number of people who responded because the

response in my view was excellent, but I think we have to have a debate

now about whether or not the front line police force can be put. I

don't believe it can and I think I would say this now needs to become

an issue in the election campaign once we have dealt with the

immediate events of this week. APPLAUSE.

. You, Sir, in the pink shirt? The resources were already there in

2015, Theresa May the then Home Secretary was addressing the Police

Federation and told them they were scaremongering because she was

reducing the police numbers. The Police Federation said at the time

that low level intelligence is what gives them the information and is

able to feed those on to the Intelligence Services about

terrorist activity. We are now 20,000 people or police officers

down and we get atrocities like this. Does the Government not expect

this? I have to say, I don't accept that. I have asked the head of

Counter-Terrorism whether it's about resources. It is not. There may be a

conversation to have about policing, we may have that at some stage but

now is not that conversation. We must not imply that the terrorist

activity wouldn't have taken place if there had been more policing.

Good Counter-Terrorism activity is because you have a close

relationship between the policing and the Intelligence Services.

That's what we have. That's why the UK has the strong counterterrorist

network. It's also about making sure that we get in early on

radicalisation but it's not about those pure numbers on the street, as

you have implied, Sir. APPLAUSE.

Do you want to come back on that? It's low level intelligence which

gives you the information so I think it's about the numbers. The

Intelligence Services are telling us that, you know, they're tracking

telephone calls, looking at e-mails, stuff like this, and again, the

Chief Constable said that this is a network of people, this wasn't a

loan wolf attack, this was a well-organised network. So where

were the Intelligence Services and wrrn they getting that information.

It's not where we get the intelligence from, it's more from

the prevent strategy, which is community-led within the communities

which engages with local activities, local groups, not through the police

largely, it's about having a strategy to engage in the community

which is community-led. You are just agreeing with my argument, we have

lost the community officers. It's not about policing so much as

engaging with community leaders in the area. Colin Parry? I think one

to have great characteristics of the British people is that we are

realists. Not necessarily idealists. The reality is that with three times

the police force strength in the UK we can't possibly stop every single

attack and there will be attacks that get through. That's the awful

truth. I think what the Government does is perhaps in need of extra

effort. That's not really a matter for me to say how many police

officers we have and putting the Armed Forces on the streets is a

show of strength, I don't know whether it actually makes a lot of

difference. The problem is, the people that do this do it to divide

the country, they want to set Muslims against, if you like, the

British indigenous people and they want to cause discord and discontent

and get the two groups to never talk. We have to do, as a nation, is

accept that we can't live in silos, we have to integrate and accept each

other, this is a multicultural, multinational multiethnic country.

The sooner we recognise this, we are never going back to 1930, we have

got to integrate in 2017, be friendlier, talk to each other and

do things together. Civil society has to play a part.

Time I wanted to ask Amber Rudd, how well thought through has been the

decision to deploy troops? Obviously, the period of deployment

is overlapping the beginning of the campaign season. As people begin to

engage in protest and demonstrations, what are the risks

that in the event that these protests become violent, that the

Armed Forces could use live ammunition against protesters? What

are the rules of engagement governing the relationship between

the police, the Armed Forces and potential encounters with people

engaging in normal political protest activity which may potentially

become violent? The movement of the threat level

from severe to critical, which is part of this process,

is done by an independent body. I need everyone to appreciate

that is not a government process, that is done by an independent body,

the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre. And in terms of the troops that

come from the military, they are under the authority

of the police as they operate, and They go to the areas that

are requested by the police, and they will make sure

that they are operating And I think you should take some

comfort from the fact that our military do support

the police in this way. There are other incidents where

they have worked together closely. And I would also say that we only

expect it to be temporary. So I would hope, as was said

before, that this should We are sensitive to the fact

that it is during an election period but it's got nothing to do

with the fact that we have this operation, we have

to keep people safe, and these procedures

have to be put in place. I think it's important for me

to back up what we have just heard. I can say as well, this has not been

a political decision. The effect of it has been to allow

more police officers, specially trained police officers,

to be deployed on the streets You may have seen some

of them around this week. It has been an exceptionally

difficult week. Of course, at the beginning

of the week, there wasn't clarity about how far the network spread

and what the scale of the issue In my view, the government

of the right action. I think it's important

for me to say that. The events on Monday evening

were truly distressing. I've lived and studied in this great

city for four years, and an attack on the people

of Manchester is indeed I want to answer both

of your questions, because I think The Government absolutely

have a role to play in protecting That's probably one

of their most important And my view very much is that

in order to counter terrorism, to counter radicalisation,

it needs to be a holistic, You need to have a bottom-up

approach, where society groups, antiracism organisations,

families, communities, faith institutions, mosques,

for example, they all have a role. We will probably talk about this

later as we talk about how to prevent radicalisation,

but there is an important role that can be played

from a bottom-up approach. Government has a top-down

responsibility, and that includes also taking down pieces of illegal

material of the internet, engaging with social media sites,

for example, making sure I think it has to be very much

a multipronged approach. Your second question is very

pertinent, because what we have to recognise right now is that this

attack that happened on Monday follows in a long line of a number

of attacks that have hit this country, particularly

in the last 20 years. In 2000, MI5 discovered Britain's

first Islamist bomb-making factory. In 2007, Glasgow

airport got attacked. We've had since that time hundreds

of people who have been convicted We've had hundreds of people

leave our country to join Isis, to live in their territory

and support jihadist organisations. In my view, the struggle,

and it is a struggle now against Islamist extremism,

has increased in potency, And we have to ask ourselves,

are we doing enough, are we upscaling our work

to recognise the current threat. And the current threat

is coming from there. And just really, really very

quickly, as a country, we have stood up against fascism,

racism and terrorism. During the Second World War,

we stood up to fascism. We challenged the National

Front in the 1970s. But the fact of the matter is that

right now the biggest threat that we are facing comes

from Islamist inspired terrorism, who, as Colin said,

rightly want to divide us, And the fact of the matter is that

if we want to defeat this threat we all have to together make

a difference and play our part. We've got so many

questions, I'd like to go Before I do, remember,

if you are watching this at home you can join

in on Twitter and Facebook. And push the red button to see

what others are saying. While I am on about it,

just a reminder that Question Time will be in Barnet next week,

and the details are on screen in a moment and I will

give them at the end. Let's have a question

from Lloyd Cawthorne, please. How can we prevent Brits

from being radicalised? Well, we have a strategy that

perhaps is not as well My conversations with

the Home Secretary's colleagues in the Home Office around

the Prevent strategy, which some people booed earlier

when it was mentioned. Prevent is actually

just safeguarding. That was safeguarding

children from sexual abuse. I've dealt with cases

involving safeguarding people from going into criminality

of other types. This is preventing people,

safeguarding people from going down the route

of extremism and radicalisation. And in a nutshell, just explain

what it is that it does. People will identify the signs

of somebody somewhere that might be at risk of either being a victim,

or more likely, somebody that is so vulnerable

that they are going to be groomed And identifying the signs and then

referring that individual to an authority who provide them

with mentors and support. It could be mental health support,

it could be educational support. The concerns I've had around

the Prevent strategy, which are historical,

not my view right now because I have met with current colleagues,

historically there has been poor There has been poor community

engagement about it. There has been a poor

narrative around this, and people really haven't understood

that what it's all about is keeping our children safe and ensuring

that our children don't get radicalised and don't get

extracted by those people who are desperate to cultivate them,

as this individual But Colin Parry, perhaps

you could come in on this. There has been a lot

of criticism of Prevent, because it means people telling

on people in school, telling on their families

and the rest of it. My foundation largely

works on the principle And the early intervention happens

when local authorities, Police and Crime Commissioners,

local schools, identify warning signs, identify behaviours

which are causing concern, and then ask organisations such

as mine to apply the kind of programmes we've built up down

the years to bring version people to the Peace Centre in Warrington,

and then we work with them very closely and we try to strip back

where the views are coming from, what they are based on,

where have they been fed this often perverse and twisted ideology,

and get them to mix with people And believe it or not,

and I can prove this to be absolutely the case,

going back to the days of the IRA, you can, if you cultivate the right

atmosphere in a safe environment, you can get people who would

otherwise never meet, who have no regard for each other,

to eventually start I ended up with a very warm

relationship with somebody that most people in this country would have

never imagined I would have a warm relationship

with, Martin McGuinness. You might say why the hell

did Colin Parry speak The very fact is that

Martin McGuinness in the end became Now, if conversation can be

encouraged, if meetings can be I don't say you can cure everything

but I will tell you what, Andy Burnham,

you said back in June last year, "I do feel that the brand

that is Prevent is so toxic now that Can you explain why you feel it's

not the right approach, unless you've changed your

view on it? I'm not saying that we don't need

a programme that works in communities to identify people

at risk of radicalisation. We most certainly do need

a programme to do that. The debate is about

how do we do that. And the problem is, as you said

before, Prevent works on the principle that the community,

the Muslim community in particular, is under suspicion,

under surveillance. And I think this was felt

by the Catholic community in Northern Ireland,

there were policies aimed at them It can actually become

counter-productive. It can actually radicalise,

if people feel they So I think there is the need

for a fundamental review of Prevent. It should be cross-party,

this review. And I think it needs to start again,

working on a basis of trust with community organisations,

particularly in And let's say, be fair, we expect

them to do more to help us, to provide information,

to be able to take action. It's gone wrong, it's become

quite a state approach. There is a statutory duty now

on public bodies to report. And there was a young man

on the radio this morning saying the quality of Prevent

officers varies greatly. Some confuse what is normal

religious activity for extremism. So you can imagine how if somebody

is reported to the police for carrying out their faith,

for worshipping, and all of a sudden they are under suspicion,

you can imagine how that creates So I think we have

to get this right. We need to get in early and identify

those at risk of radicalisation. But we have to acknowledge that

the current programme isn't working. And it's true, that name,

Prevent, is toxic and parts And is it only the Muslim

community that Prevent... Is it right-wing,

English Defence League, I am sure the Home

Secretary would explain. I think the point is,

it's felt by the Muslim community that the resources are predominantly

targeted at them. We have radicalisation

on the right of politics. We've seen somebody kill my friend

Jo Cox in the last year, and we need to have a debate

about radicalisation I think this is the problem,

that it's seen as though it's all about the Muslim community,

and that creates the backlash. I think what's happening

is that we need to look We can always review

a strategy and can look. And going on from the terrible

events that happened this week in Manchester,

we owe it to the people I am delighted we have some

cross-party agreement because that's what we,

as a country, need to move forward. And let's not, when we start

the manifesto season again for the next couple of weeks,

please let's remember that by cooperating we will

get further quicker. And I definitely think that's

what I'd like to see moving forward. I'm concerned about

what Andy was saying. I think anybody who's prepared

to do the sort of things we've seen recently,

in terms radical Islamic terrorism, anybody who does that on the basis

that we've got a Prevent strategy, which is trying to help people,

actually, there is something wrong I think the problem

comes from the mosques. I've got something I wanted to read

you which actually came from Didsbury mosque,

because I spend my time actually And this is direct

from Didsbury mosque. This is a leaflet I was

given on an open day. And this says, "Living in a society

in which people have accepted Western lifestyle as their way

of life brings immorality Modesty, shame and honour have no

place in Western civilisation". That is direct from Didsbury mosque,

and that was given in a very And that is what Muslims

are listening to. There are a lot of good

Muslims, but they are not All right, from the

woman there in blue. The Muslim community has been

accused by some politicians and media anchors of not doing

enough, and almost in denial, or even complicit with

the threat of extremism. Yet the Manchester Muslim community,

at risk to themselves, reported Salman Abedi

for his militant views. Isn't this a catastrophic failure

of Theresa May's security, What do you make of what the man up

there said about the pamphlet All I can say that I have been

an attendee of Didsbury mosque for 30 years or so,

and Didsbury mosque is a mosque that opens its doors to non-Muslims

every week on a Sunday. It's a mosque that invites

in women, men, people And where that has come

from, I don't know. That's absolutely correct,

and that was given to me You get tea and biscuits,

very nice people. I got involved, having

debates with young women. Two lines taken out of context

about Didsbury mosque is unfair. How is talking about Western

civilisation out of context? We don't know who handed it

to you, or who wrote it. It's a charity leaflet that's given

out officially from Didsbury mosque I want people to listen

to me very carefully. I was born in Manchester,

I was raised in Manchester. I am a proud Manc

and a proud Muslim. And I'm hurting after

what happened on Monday. And what happened on Monday

night was an evil act, an abhorrent act that

should be condemned And to think that somebody can

target small girls, and anybody, but small girls in particular,

to carry out evil, should be said I'm sitting next to a reverend here,

a friend that I've known And it seems that Muslims seem to be

the target and collateral damage Islam is not the reason that

people do bad things. People do bad things

because they are evil And I think that after these things

happen, Islamophobia increases. Let us please not let

people who hate and want We should work together,

stand shoulder to shoulder and say we will not accept hate and we stand

against Islamophobia, and we condemn all sorts

of evil in all its forms. We have veered away from the

original question, how we prevent Brits from radicalisation. You have

heard what Andy Burnham saying the right signal not being sent out.

What is your answer? I met a woman recently who came home and found her

16-year-old son had just gone, just gone to Syria and she hasn't been in

touch with him, she probably won't see him again. She calleded for help

and the Prevent coordinator sent someone to see her who was able to

engage with her and her other children. There was two teenage

girls who needed the support that was available through the Prevent

strategy to make sure that they didn't become radicalised as she had

as well, or as her brother had. Last year, it stopped, we stopped 150

people from going to Syria to fight, of which 50 were children. There is

really strong evidence of Prevent initiatives stopping

deradicalisation and saving people's lives. I would like everybody's help

here making sure we speak up for the good work that is done by Prevent.

The foundation for peace here is one of the largest providers in the

area. Andy, I don't think you would criticise the foundation for peace

for the fantastic work that they do. We have 142 community-led

organisations. This is not about police-led, it's about community-led

organisations, we do exactly as Ian said, safeguard young people. When

you say you stopped 150 people last year going to Syria, do you mean you

wouldn't allow them to leave the country or do you mean you think you

prevented them from leaving the country? There is more evidence of

stopping them at the airport but there's evidence we've stopped 150

people. I can't draw on any more detail than that. I do feel that we

need to be stronger about the fact that Prevent is saving lives and

helping people. It's doing good work and I would like more support trying

to make sure that we get the message out. The final point I was trying to

get over is that it's community-led, it's not about getting policemen

involved, it's about making sure the local organisations like the

foundation for peace are able to engage with young people on that

level. It's not about the Government being, as Sara said, bottom up, it's

about the Government providing support for the communities to work

it out. APPLAUSE.

You, Sir? To Amber Rudd. It's not about getting the police involved -

where's my security, where are all these people's security coming from?

We have PCSOs on the street that walk about with every other bit of

kit I've seen including handcuffs that they do not have the power of

arrest to use. Where's the security coming from? Where's MI5 in all of

this? We have no mention of this tonight. We've got 13.3 billion a

year going out to foreign aid. No, hold on a second... Money that

should be saved in this country and looking after ourselves and I'm

talking about everybody here. It doesn't matter what colour or creed

we are, we look after ourselves first. OK. Let us secure this

country. I can say that we have given additional funding to the

Security Services, they got a 30% uplift because we are making sure we

do invest in the Security Services. You are sending people to a country

that has a space programme and a nuclear war programme. You, Sir? Do

you agree with him? I have a slightly different point on

radicalisation. We have taken off the lid. The perpetrator of this

latest crime was Libyan, so we removed Gaddafi. We have had others

come from various Muslim countries and we've removed Saddam Hussein.

Why this Government, even Labour or Conservative before them, has taken

us to places we don't understand the cultures or the politics of the

people and why we have tried to be the policemen of the world I fail to

understand because if we take our resources away from these

activities, we could have the resources that Colin Parry and Sara

Khan require because we could fund the integration and openness that we

need. Instead, we are still in Afghanistan spending billions and

it's just crazy. Sara Khan? I agree with Nazir when

he says there appears to be a real misunderstanding about the aims and

objectives of Prevent. Let's be very clear about what space Prevent

operates in. It's not desirable or possible for the state to start

arresting people because they become radicalised. You could become

radicalised when you have not committed a criminal offence. So

what do you do with the individuals? That's the space Prevent operates

in. You hear people saying that it's about spying and surveillance, none

of these things are relevant to Prevent at all, they are part of

Pursue, another strand of the Government's Counter-Terrorism

strategy. People often conflate Prevent with Pursue. This is a basic

understanding and I would like to see the Government educate people

about what is Prevent and what Prevent isn't. It's important also

to recognise that it's not Prevent that is taxic, it's the discourse

around Prevent that has become toxic. It's not the Prevent strategy

that is the problem, it's the politicisation around Prevent which

is increasingly becoming a problem. I've seen politicians, for example,

make unfounded claims about Prevent saying that if a Muslim child no

longer decides to eat at McDonald's, that will lead to a Prevent

referral. Nonsense. I've sheered many false untruths about Prevent.

How will that encourage trust between Muslims who want to do this

work and with the Government? It doesn't. I'm going to really have to

point this out also, the fact is in this country we have Muslim-led

organisations who're actively seeking to make sure Prevent fails,

and that is no surprise to anybody since 2011, organisations like Alma

hajj ran which is prescribed run by the infamous am January Chowdry,

they were at the forefront of saying, we see in Prevent a direct

challenge to our attempt of trying to radicalise young Muslims -- Anjam

Channel 4 Newsry. You are seeing them taking up that baton and

spreading lies. Can I ask you about the work Prevent is doing, have you

come across people saying to you, what the British Government is doing

in our name is something we abhor? There is no black-and-white answer

to this issue of foreign policy which we talk about all the time.

When we look at people like Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ring leader of

7/7, he made clear one of his prime motivations was our country's

involvement in the Iraq war in 2003. I come across 13-year-old girls who

tell me that they want to go and live in Isis caliphate because they

think it's some sort of Islamic Disneyland. These girls weren't even

born before the Iraq war in 2003, so foreign policy has no relevance to

those individuals. They have been online, they have been reading

Islamist propaganda and Isis propaganda which we are not

countering enough. What are the parents doing about it? We have to

have a multipronged approach. My organisation's delivered

counternarratives to ideaologyists, to Muslim parents to equip them to

build resilience in children. I want to make another point very quickly.

We have to look at what Isis have said. Last year - they have an

English online magazine - one of their editions last year, they made

it clear foreign policy isn't the reason they seek to attack and kill

us. They clearly said, we hate you first and foremost because you are

disbelievers, because of our secular liberal values. That's what Isis

themselves are saying. I want to come back... Andy Burnham? The

individuals that commit these acts, and this was true in Paris as well,

they did not live a devout Muslim lifestyle, they're not true Muslims

in any way shape or form. The problem I hear is that the idea that

the person who committed this awful atrocity this week or who attacked

Westminster, suggestions that they in some way represent the Muslim

community, they no more represent the Muslim community as the person

who killed Jo Cox represents the white community. With respect, Sara

Khan, you don't understand the Muslim community. I've just complete

add both thesis event. I work in a school safeguarding, we don't want

children radicalises, but the NUT said suspicion in the classroom,

confusion in the staff room, that's what it's causing. We want the

principles of Prevent, none of us want radicalisation but let's be

clear that for Prevent to work, it has to first of all get on board and

has to be community-led, not just with Government favourite

organisations with grass root organisations like organisations I

work with in Manchester so I think it needs to appeal to everybody and

we are all on board with the principles of prevent no doubt.

Let's root out the causes of terrorism. Let's not try and

focus... Prevent duty guidance actually says how do you spot a

terrorist basically and the chief reviewer David Anderson, his own

report mentions certain facts that changes need to be made. The Home

Secretary, the few examples that you quoted, I do agree there could be

some benefit and I read about those examples where families were

comforted. Those are far and few between. The channel referrals that

have caused damage, the incorrect channel referrals unfortunately

because it's maybe lack of experience have caused far more

damage within innocent families. Thank you very much. Nazir?

APPLAUSE. Can I say, what you said is

absolutely right. There are some issues around the training, there

are some issues in the way it's implemented. I think you used the

word it's a "new" approach and people are overzealous some times in

how they apply it and some people don't understand what they are

doing. That is being dealt with, I assure you. In terms of the

religious theology behind this, I'm a British Muslim, you don't love

your... It's like having two children, you don't love your first

child any less when you have a second. I'm absolutely delighted and

proud to be born in this country and to live in this country and I was

Chief Prosecutor, I didn't go out blowing people up or wanting to harm

somebody so there's something else going on here. There are examples

which the Home Secretary referred to. One guy on his way to Syria to

join Isis, the last thing he wrote was a book called Islam for Dummies.

He knew he needed something... That is the point. I get that but he

needed something to get through the recruitment process. Religion wasn't

what drove him. There was grievances, redemption, ego. How

many of the people working for Isis suddenly become commanders of a

platoon of two. They go there for all sorts of reasons. That's why we

have to have an approach that isn't one-size-fits-all but that does work

with the communities, absolutely. All right. A number of hands up. I

want to take a question from Shelley Blackstone, please?

Isn't it about time that anyone who is a suspected terrorist should be

thrown out of the UK immediately? Amber Rudd? I think that's quite a

difficult definition to have - anyone who is a suspected terrorist.

As Sara said, you have got a situation where people are becoming

radicalised, maybe having radical thoughts but it doesn't mean they

have committed a crime. We have the rule of law, we have to make sure

that we do it correctly. Don't think that we are not making

sure, that we are keeping everybody protected. We have our strategy on

Prevent which is controversial, as we have heard tonight, but I think

stopping people becoming radicalised still. We have an Intelligence

Service working close with the police delivering results. 18

serious plots have been foiled since 2013. They do fantastic work to keep

us safe. We will take action, of course, where we see that there are

terrorist or potential terrorist conversations. The Intelligence

Services are doing their jobs well in order to do this. Your answer is,

you can't throw people out of the UK because they're a suspected

terrorist, but you do say in your Conservative manifesto we are going

to consider new criminal offences that might be created to defeat

terrorism. What kind of new criminal offences are you going to consider

creating? Well, it will depend what comes out

of our various initiatives We're going to have a commission

on extremism, to find out We want to tackle this in a way that

I hope will engage the communities But terrorists, don't forget,

also come from abroad, so we work internationally

with other countries, with European partners,

with other countries from further afield, particularly trying to spot

any returning foreign fighters, to make sure they don't get

into the country, as well as looking But British fighters who go abroad,

you can't do anything about them Well, we have a lot of tools

at our disposal to try and make sure that we stop them coming back

where we can. But if they do come back,

we have the evidence But on the point that you make,

new criminal offences, from what I hear from you,

you are not really thinking You are just saying

you are going to consider it. No, we are thinking

about new criminal offences. I can't be drawn on that

at the moment, I'm afraid, David. Because you don't know

the answer, or because... I just don't want to have

that discussion here. It would be difficult

to have right here. Sara Khan, what do you make

of the point that we should be much rougher, tougher

on suspected terrorists? I agree with the Home Secretary

that when we are talking about suspected terrorists,

the idea that we throw people like that out

of our country is not the way Look, we have to stand

for our values. That includes the rule of law,

standing for human rights. I fundamentally believe

that the best way we are going to win this battle against extremism

is through the prism Already, we are seeing people

who are being convicted. There have been around 269 people

convicted between the period Also, we have to be very careful

when we are saying this person We have to go through the rule

of law, and I think that's I just can't get over

what happened on Monday. And had anybody known

that he was capable of what he was capable

of doing, you know... I don't think there's a single

person in this room who is not feeling what you're saying and does

not have sympathy with But throwing them out is not the way

of solving this problem. It's about dealing with having

a multi pronged strategy. We can counter this in a much

more effective manner. If you want to throw them anywhere,

throw them into my Peace Centre and we will take as long as it takes

to try and change the way We've got ample

evidence we can do it. We reintegrate them into British

society as best we can. We cannot abandon the rule

of law and say, you are First of all, I would like to say

that my thoughts and prayers are with the victims

and their families. I'm a British Muslim and I'm very

proud of my heritage. And there is an elephant

in the room here. And unfortunately, it is very

unfortunate, there is an issue with regards to radicalisation

and extremism that does exist That is something

that we have to accept. I would like to go back

to what the gentleman over there was saying,

when he referenced a mosque. Yes, we do have an issue

within our mosques, We have children being taught the

Wahhabi interpretation of the Koran. We have Saudi trained clerics

coming in and speaking I would say, for now, temporarily,

close down all Saudi- And I myself as a

Muslim am a Muslim. Not only do we have our own

home-grown terrorists, but terrorism is also being imported

right under our noses. There are no Saudi funded

mosques in the UK. There used to be money

that was brought in from abroad but that has all stopped

a long time ago. Are there no Wahhabi preachers

and no Saudi money at all? There is a difference between Saudi

money and Wahhabi preachers. Can you pick up the point of

the Muslim woman who said you have to face the fact that there is a lot

of language of, radical language I don't go to any meeting, for

example, which is exclusively men. I ensure that if they invite me

to a place of worship, We have to confront them

when they are coming up with the kinds of things you have

just identified yourself. Because that's how, sadly,

this generates even more hate. How they generate difference

as well, which is something that But at the same time,

the communities themselves One of the things I'm doing

is setting up a community Cobra, which is made up of not the usual

suspects, but people perhaps like you, you might want to join,

who are young, who understand the issues and work together to try

and develop solutions. And I think that's

what we need to do. There is a deficit in Muslim

leadership in this country. The vast majority, the majority

of Muslims are now under 25, female The leaders are male, over 50

from middle-class backgrounds. Well, you stop talking,

sadly, to people like me. You stop talking to the older

generation, the people who claim The white community don't

have community leaders. Why do we suddenly assume that

minorities have community leaders? We start talking to

people in students land. We get them into the room

and talk to them about how Let me have one quick

question from Assad Riaz, and then I want to go back

to the other point. To what extent have the leaked

security details jeopardised our I want to put this to you,

Amber Rudd, and also to what extent it may have jeopardised

the police investigations here. I took it up with Secretary Kelly

and the Attorney General and made very clear that they needed to sort

the situation out. The Prime Minister has spoken

to President Trump today and he has I understand today that the head

of counterterrorism has said that I don't believe it has

damaged the investigation, In the short term,

what was so upsetting about it was that it must have been

such a terrible thing for the families to see, when this

was a well-run investigation. Actually, our newspapers had

behaved well in terms of working with investigators,

not releasing information So I think it was very hard

on the families but I hope From the minute the attack happened,

information was beginning I raised it with the US ambassador

earlier in the week and said, The lead investigator has to control

the release of information, the British police,

because otherwise you can I said that and then

it happened again. Families were in a hotel

in Manchester, not even able to go to the scene,

and yet there were pictures It's absolutely outrageous

what has happened this week. It is arrogant of the Americans,

and it is disrespectful Most importantly, the families

of those who died and It's my job to speak up for

the people of Greater Manchester. Well, I think at this stage,

the damage is manageable I don't think there has

been any serious damage. But there is an important

point of principle here. I don't want a diplomatic row,

but this cannot happen again, and we need to make

that absolutely clear. I want to end with a question

from Irfan Munir, please. My eight-year-old English daughter

asked me why her friends What can be done to stop

hate towards Muslims? That happened yesterday,

and also the journey I had to explain

to her what a bomb is. It was an absolutely horrendous

journey into work this morning. Sara Khan, we only have a couple

of minutes, but what can be done? It's absolutely horrendous

that we hear this. Even the NSPCC and ChildLine

and other organisations are picking up the fact that there are Muslim

children experiencing this kind And for me this is part

of a wider issue, really. It's about how we talk about

British Muslims in this country. Trying to promote British Muslims

as a homogenous community is not the right way of dealing

with the situation. The fact of the matter

is we have to recognise There is a positive trend among

Muslims who are integrated, contributing to our country

in all sorts of manners, serving in the Armed Forces,

doctors, in the arts, But at the same time,

we have to recognise that there is a negative trend

amongst some British Muslims who oppose democracy,

who despise different interpretations and pluralistic

interpretations of the religion. We have to counter those negative

people, because it's what you said, Because that counters and feeds

that kind of narrative. We've got to show that it is not

a homogenous Muslim community. The worry is that increasingly

British people will think all Muslims are terrorists,

because the hard-line people who print those leaflets

that this chap mentioned, who are the very extreme end

of the Muslim faith, are those who are discrediting

the whole of the Muslim faith. The overwhelming majority of Muslim

people are the same as the rest of us in this country,

whatever our faith, good people. But your poor kid is going

to get tagged with that. That's exactly what

the bomber wants. Absolutely, what Colin

said is right, this I am glad she was able to open up

to you and you could Ultimately, as parents we need

to talk to our children and that's I think part of the answer is to be

careful with language. People talk about Muslim terrorism,

or Islamic terrorism, and that suggests that this

is the whole of the Muslim That is very dangerous,

if you suggest that is the case. I think the BBC are wrong to say

so-called Islamic State. They should call them Daesh,

because don't give them the kind of impression that they represent

the whole Muslim community. These people that are involved

in this terrible act They should be described as such

and they should not be described in a way that casts this kind

of terrible sense of gloom and despair over

the Muslim community. Colin Parry's absolutely right

to say what he just said. These individuals do not represent

the Muslim community in Greater Manchester,

and that needs to be pointed out Your daughter had the confidence

to report it to you. We need to make sure that everybody

has the confidence to call out hate The first thing I did

as Home Secretary was to publish Now, more than ever,

we need to make sure that people have the confidence

to report hate crime. And we will particularly engage

with the schools to ensure that they have the ability

and the information they need over this difficult period to engage

with young people as well. Thank you very much,

everybody, and I'm sorry to those of you have your hands up

and have not been able to get in. Question Time is going to be

in Barnet next week. Then we have leaders'

specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, one

after the And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron

on Sunday 4th Jne in Edinburgh. And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron

on Sunday 4th June in Edinburgh. If you want to put questions

to those leaders, details of how If you are listening on 5Live

there's reaction to what's been said panellists who came here tonight,

and particular thanks to all of you who came here to take

part in this debate. From Salford, in Greater Manchester,

and from Question until next