25/05/2017 Question Time


David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Salford in Greater Manchester. On the panel are Amber Rudd, Andy Burnham, Sara Khan, Nazir Afzal and Colin Parry.

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Tonight, we're in Salford in Greater Manchester for a special


programme focusing on the impact of Monday's shocking events


With us tonight, Home Secretary Amber Rudd.


The Mayor of Greater Manchester and former Cabinet


Colin Parry who set up the Tim Parry Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace


after his son died in the Warrington bombings in 1993.


The counter-extremism campaigner and former advisor


And the head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association


and former Chief Prosecutor for North West England Nazir Afzal.


Election campaigning remains suspended until tomorrow so we don't


have our usual multi-party panel for tonight's Question Time,


We take our first question from Darren Halcott, please.


As a father of three young girls living here in Manchester,


I find it hard to come to terms with Monday night's atrocities.


What decisive action should Government take


What actions should the Government take, Amber Rudd?


I find it hard to come to terms with as well as a mother of two children.


The important thing for us to do now is to concentrate


on allowing the police and the Intelligence Services


There may be lessons to learn afterwards.


We have some very strong Counter-Terrorism programmes


in place which we may discuss later today, but I think the important


thing now is to allow the operation to complete.


It's an ongoing investigation and what we saw on Tuesday or Monday


But we also saw some extraordinary compassion and strength


It's something that the emergency services, the NHS had rehearsed


But when it did happen, the operation worked incredibly


smoothly and I would like to take the opportunity, if I may,


to thank the emergency services and the NHS staff


And what was the point of bringing the army out on to the streets?


We have been at threat level of severe since 2013.


We have moved to critical because it's an ongoing operation.


The fact is that when it's at that stage, we have the option to call


in Operation Tempera which allows army military support to be drawn


It will allow, I hope, Sir, for you and your family to feel


more secure when you go around your every day life.


In this period of critical which we hope will only last a few


days, it could be longer, it will depend on the operation,


we have pulled out additional support from the army so that we can


Events in Manchester and further afield can take place with extra


Nazia Afzal, Do you agree That that is the proper action to take?


It's necessary at the moment because it's an ongoing investigation.


We have had this before, the second or third time in ten


years where we've had to go to what should haves


years where we've had to go to what involves


the Armed Forces behind the wire to enable police officers to go out


I think it's a necessary thing but previous examples tell us it


only lasts five or seven days, so once we have got this inquiry


to a point where we are safe, then the army can go back to doing


To answer the gentleman's question, I love Manchester, I've


I am amazed at your resilience, your tolerance.


I was at the vigil on Tuesday night with colleagues here, some of them,


and I was touched by it all and I cried.


I cried when people started chanting "Manchester,


Manchester, Manchester", I cried today when people


were having a one-minute silence and people started singing,


don't look back in anger immediately afterwards.


That is what Manchester is special for.


In terms of what you do now, you do what I've done,


which is to have a conversation with your children because they're


probably keeping things to themselves and it's about giving


them the ability to talk about what they feel.


They're doing it in their schools but we can do it in our homes.


Darren's question was, what decisive action


They should do what the Home Secretary said, allow the police


I know Greater Manchester Police well being the Chief Prosecutor


They're extremely effective when it comes to serious and organised crime


and I know how effective they are in this operation.


At the same time, there is a conversation we'll have


during the course of this evening about what needs to happen


around deradicalisation, what more we can do around


controlling the threat that we are facing, how we can


ensure that we get more information from the communities,


people know now that much of what we know about that


particular suspect, or that particular bomber,


let's put it bluntly, came from the communities


So how do we engage, how do we ensure the people are able


to provide information so the Security Services


But you're involved closely with the police.


When the Chief Constable of Manchester said "I think it's


clear that this is a network that we are investigating",


were you surprised at that, given that the police,


the job of the police is to spot these networks before they emerge?


I'm not going to speak for policing tonight,


I don't speak for the commissioners, but what I can tell you based


We've had sadly a number of incidents across Europe


which have been low level in terms of sophistication, a man


with a knife, a truck that caused enormous damage and misery.


What we have had here, as we all know, is somebody


with a little bit more sophistication and evidently


the evidence is suggesting a wider network involved.


I know for a fact that Greater Manchester Police


That's part of the reason why we've gone to getting the Armed Forces


to support certainly allow police officers to be out doing


So I'm satisfied that the police are doing a phenomenal job this time


around but they're doing it with the assistance


Darren, let me come back to you before we come back


What do you make of what we have heard so far?


What the police and the Security Services are doing is obviously


commentedable but I think my issue is that everything you have


described there is reactionary, so I'm interested to know


what we are doing to prevent things like this happening.


Well, like you, I found it very hard to come to terms


I've got young girls like you, I've been coming out of that arena


at that time of night, I can picture that scene,


we all could, it could have been any of us, I think we all feel that


and our hearts go out to the familieses.


and our hearts go out to the families.


To target children, young families in that way is unthinkably


I support what the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary


have done this week, they have taken decisive


action and we should give them credit for that.


Going forward, I think we do need a conversation about police


resources with the terror threat high, with hate crime up,


violent crime up, you can't keep the police funding line going down


and down, we have to have a conversation about that.


On your point, we have to do better at identifying people


in our communities at risk of radicalisation, work


with the Muslim communities, put more onus on them to help us


Just to say, this has been our darkest hour.


I would also say we have seen the best of Greater Manchester


I couldn't be more proud of what I've seen.


I'm proud of the public servants who dropped everything and came


into work on Monday night, proud of the people who opened


their doors to strangers and drove them around the city,


I'm proud of the two homeless people who came and helped children,


But most of all, I am proud of the people of Greater Manchester.


They have said to the terrorists, we refuse to follow your trap


and start dividing and blaming each other, we are not going to be beaten


by this, we will stand together and I tell you tonight,


this is the greatest City of the world and I


Remember you can join in on Twitter and Facebook.


Do you think it could have been possible to know about this bomb?


It's hard to give a definitive answer. What I would say is that, in


my view, neighbourhood policing is the first building block of an


effective intelligence system. The eyes and ears on the grown in those


communities feeding information back. If you allow neighbourhood


policing to become too eroded and if there aren't enough police on our


streets, it does become a problem. I'm not saying that did in any way


contribute, it's too early to say that. I'm certainly not saying there


was a problem with the number of people who responded because the


response in my view was excellent, but I think we have to have a debate


now about whether or not the front line police force can be put. I


don't believe it can and I think I would say this now needs to become


an issue in the election campaign once we have dealt with the


immediate events of this week. APPLAUSE.


. You, Sir, in the pink shirt? The resources were already there in


2015, Theresa May the then Home Secretary was addressing the Police


Federation and told them they were scaremongering because she was


reducing the police numbers. The Police Federation said at the time


that low level intelligence is what gives them the information and is


able to feed those on to the Intelligence Services about


terrorist activity. We are now 20,000 people or police officers


down and we get atrocities like this. Does the Government not expect


this? I have to say, I don't accept that. I have asked the head of


Counter-Terrorism whether it's about resources. It is not. There may be a


conversation to have about policing, we may have that at some stage but


now is not that conversation. We must not imply that the terrorist


activity wouldn't have taken place if there had been more policing.


Good Counter-Terrorism activity is because you have a close


relationship between the policing and the Intelligence Services.


That's what we have. That's why the UK has the strong counterterrorist


network. It's also about making sure that we get in early on


radicalisation but it's not about those pure numbers on the street, as


you have implied, Sir. APPLAUSE.


Do you want to come back on that? It's low level intelligence which


gives you the information so I think it's about the numbers. The


Intelligence Services are telling us that, you know, they're tracking


telephone calls, looking at e-mails, stuff like this, and again, the


Chief Constable said that this is a network of people, this wasn't a


loan wolf attack, this was a well-organised network. So where


were the Intelligence Services and wrrn they getting that information.


It's not where we get the intelligence from, it's more from


the prevent strategy, which is community-led within the communities


which engages with local activities, local groups, not through the police


largely, it's about having a strategy to engage in the community


which is community-led. You are just agreeing with my argument, we have


lost the community officers. It's not about policing so much as


engaging with community leaders in the area. Colin Parry? I think one


to have great characteristics of the British people is that we are


realists. Not necessarily idealists. The reality is that with three times


the police force strength in the UK we can't possibly stop every single


attack and there will be attacks that get through. That's the awful


truth. I think what the Government does is perhaps in need of extra


effort. That's not really a matter for me to say how many police


officers we have and putting the Armed Forces on the streets is a


show of strength, I don't know whether it actually makes a lot of


difference. The problem is, the people that do this do it to divide


the country, they want to set Muslims against, if you like, the


British indigenous people and they want to cause discord and discontent


and get the two groups to never talk. We have to do, as a nation, is


accept that we can't live in silos, we have to integrate and accept each


other, this is a multicultural, multinational multiethnic country.


The sooner we recognise this, we are never going back to 1930, we have


got to integrate in 2017, be friendlier, talk to each other and


do things together. Civil society has to play a part.


Time I wanted to ask Amber Rudd, how well thought through has been the


decision to deploy troops? Obviously, the period of deployment


is overlapping the beginning of the campaign season. As people begin to


engage in protest and demonstrations, what are the risks


that in the event that these protests become violent, that the


Armed Forces could use live ammunition against protesters? What


are the rules of engagement governing the relationship between


the police, the Armed Forces and potential encounters with people


engaging in normal political protest activity which may potentially


become violent? The movement of the threat level


from severe to critical, which is part of this process,


is done by an independent body. I need everyone to appreciate


that is not a government process, that is done by an independent body,


the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre. And in terms of the troops that


come from the military, they are under the authority


of the police as they operate, and They go to the areas that


are requested by the police, and they will make sure


that they are operating And I think you should take some


comfort from the fact that our military do support


the police in this way. There are other incidents where


they have worked together closely. And I would also say that we only


expect it to be temporary. So I would hope, as was said


before, that this should We are sensitive to the fact


that it is during an election period but it's got nothing to do


with the fact that we have this operation, we have


to keep people safe, and these procedures


have to be put in place. I think it's important for me


to back up what we have just heard. I can say as well, this has not been


a political decision. The effect of it has been to allow


more police officers, specially trained police officers,


to be deployed on the streets You may have seen some


of them around this week. It has been an exceptionally


difficult week. Of course, at the beginning


of the week, there wasn't clarity about how far the network spread


and what the scale of the issue In my view, the government


of the right action. I think it's important


for me to say that. The events on Monday evening


were truly distressing. I've lived and studied in this great


city for four years, and an attack on the people


of Manchester is indeed I want to answer both


of your questions, because I think The Government absolutely


have a role to play in protecting That's probably one


of their most important And my view very much is that


in order to counter terrorism, to counter radicalisation,


it needs to be a holistic, You need to have a bottom-up


approach, where society groups, antiracism organisations,


families, communities, faith institutions, mosques,


for example, they all have a role. We will probably talk about this


later as we talk about how to prevent radicalisation,


but there is an important role that can be played


from a bottom-up approach. Government has a top-down


responsibility, and that includes also taking down pieces of illegal


material of the internet, engaging with social media sites,


for example, making sure I think it has to be very much


a multipronged approach. Your second question is very


pertinent, because what we have to recognise right now is that this


attack that happened on Monday follows in a long line of a number


of attacks that have hit this country, particularly


in the last 20 years. In 2000, MI5 discovered Britain's


first Islamist bomb-making factory. In 2007, Glasgow


airport got attacked. We've had since that time hundreds


of people who have been convicted We've had hundreds of people


leave our country to join Isis, to live in their territory


and support jihadist organisations. In my view, the struggle,


and it is a struggle now against Islamist extremism,


has increased in potency, And we have to ask ourselves,


are we doing enough, are we upscaling our work


to recognise the current threat. And the current threat


is coming from there. And just really, really very


quickly, as a country, we have stood up against fascism,


racism and terrorism. During the Second World War,


we stood up to fascism. We challenged the National


Front in the 1970s. But the fact of the matter is that


right now the biggest threat that we are facing comes


from Islamist inspired terrorism, who, as Colin said,


rightly want to divide us, And the fact of the matter is that


if we want to defeat this threat we all have to together make


a difference and play our part. We've got so many


questions, I'd like to go Before I do, remember,


if you are watching this at home you can join


in on Twitter and Facebook. And push the red button to see


what others are saying. While I am on about it,


just a reminder that Question Time will be in Barnet next week,


and the details are on screen in a moment and I will


give them at the end. Let's have a question


from Lloyd Cawthorne, please. How can we prevent Brits


from being radicalised? Well, we have a strategy that


perhaps is not as well My conversations with


the Home Secretary's colleagues in the Home Office around


the Prevent strategy, which some people booed earlier


when it was mentioned. Prevent is actually


just safeguarding. That was safeguarding


children from sexual abuse. I've dealt with cases


involving safeguarding people from going into criminality


of other types. This is preventing people,


safeguarding people from going down the route


of extremism and radicalisation. And in a nutshell, just explain


what it is that it does. People will identify the signs


of somebody somewhere that might be at risk of either being a victim,


or more likely, somebody that is so vulnerable


that they are going to be groomed And identifying the signs and then


referring that individual to an authority who provide them


with mentors and support. It could be mental health support,


it could be educational support. The concerns I've had around


the Prevent strategy, which are historical,


not my view right now because I have met with current colleagues,


historically there has been poor There has been poor community


engagement about it. There has been a poor


narrative around this, and people really haven't understood


that what it's all about is keeping our children safe and ensuring


that our children don't get radicalised and don't get


extracted by those people who are desperate to cultivate them,


as this individual But Colin Parry, perhaps


you could come in on this. There has been a lot


of criticism of Prevent, because it means people telling


on people in school, telling on their families


and the rest of it. My foundation largely


works on the principle And the early intervention happens


when local authorities, Police and Crime Commissioners,


local schools, identify warning signs, identify behaviours


which are causing concern, and then ask organisations such


as mine to apply the kind of programmes we've built up down


the years to bring version people to the Peace Centre in Warrington,


and then we work with them very closely and we try to strip back


where the views are coming from, what they are based on,


where have they been fed this often perverse and twisted ideology,


and get them to mix with people And believe it or not,


and I can prove this to be absolutely the case,


going back to the days of the IRA, you can, if you cultivate the right


atmosphere in a safe environment, you can get people who would


otherwise never meet, who have no regard for each other,


to eventually start I ended up with a very warm


relationship with somebody that most people in this country would have


never imagined I would have a warm relationship


with, Martin McGuinness. You might say why the hell


did Colin Parry speak The very fact is that


Martin McGuinness in the end became Now, if conversation can be


encouraged, if meetings can be I don't say you can cure everything


but I will tell you what, Andy Burnham,


you said back in June last year, "I do feel that the brand


that is Prevent is so toxic now that Can you explain why you feel it's


not the right approach, unless you've changed your


view on it? I'm not saying that we don't need


a programme that works in communities to identify people


at risk of radicalisation. We most certainly do need


a programme to do that. The debate is about


how do we do that. And the problem is, as you said


before, Prevent works on the principle that the community,


the Muslim community in particular, is under suspicion,


under surveillance. And I think this was felt


by the Catholic community in Northern Ireland,


there were policies aimed at them It can actually become


counter-productive. It can actually radicalise,


if people feel they So I think there is the need


for a fundamental review of Prevent. It should be cross-party,


this review. And I think it needs to start again,


working on a basis of trust with community organisations,


particularly in And let's say, be fair, we expect


them to do more to help us, to provide information,


to be able to take action. It's gone wrong, it's become


quite a state approach. There is a statutory duty now


on public bodies to report. And there was a young man


on the radio this morning saying the quality of Prevent


officers varies greatly. Some confuse what is normal


religious activity for extremism. So you can imagine how if somebody


is reported to the police for carrying out their faith,


for worshipping, and all of a sudden they are under suspicion,


you can imagine how that creates So I think we have


to get this right. We need to get in early and identify


those at risk of radicalisation. But we have to acknowledge that


the current programme isn't working. And it's true, that name,


Prevent, is toxic and parts And is it only the Muslim


community that Prevent... Is it right-wing,


English Defence League, I am sure the Home


Secretary would explain. I think the point is,


it's felt by the Muslim community that the resources are predominantly


targeted at them. We have radicalisation


on the right of politics. We've seen somebody kill my friend


Jo Cox in the last year, and we need to have a debate


about radicalisation I think this is the problem,


that it's seen as though it's all about the Muslim community,


and that creates the backlash. I think what's happening


is that we need to look We can always review


a strategy and can look. And going on from the terrible


events that happened this week in Manchester,


we owe it to the people I am delighted we have some


cross-party agreement because that's what we,


as a country, need to move forward. And let's not, when we start


the manifesto season again for the next couple of weeks,


please let's remember that by cooperating we will


get further quicker. And I definitely think that's


what I'd like to see moving forward. I'm concerned about


what Andy was saying. I think anybody who's prepared


to do the sort of things we've seen recently,


in terms radical Islamic terrorism, anybody who does that on the basis


that we've got a Prevent strategy, which is trying to help people,


actually, there is something wrong I think the problem


comes from the mosques. I've got something I wanted to read


you which actually came from Didsbury mosque,


because I spend my time actually And this is direct


from Didsbury mosque. This is a leaflet I was


given on an open day. And this says, "Living in a society


in which people have accepted Western lifestyle as their way


of life brings immorality Modesty, shame and honour have no


place in Western civilisation". That is direct from Didsbury mosque,


and that was given in a very And that is what Muslims


are listening to. There are a lot of good


Muslims, but they are not All right, from the


woman there in blue. The Muslim community has been


accused by some politicians and media anchors of not doing


enough, and almost in denial, or even complicit with


the threat of extremism. Yet the Manchester Muslim community,


at risk to themselves, reported Salman Abedi


for his militant views. Isn't this a catastrophic failure


of Theresa May's security, What do you make of what the man up


there said about the pamphlet All I can say that I have been


an attendee of Didsbury mosque for 30 years or so,


and Didsbury mosque is a mosque that opens its doors to non-Muslims


every week on a Sunday. It's a mosque that invites


in women, men, people And where that has come


from, I don't know. That's absolutely correct,


and that was given to me You get tea and biscuits,


very nice people. I got involved, having


debates with young women. Two lines taken out of context


about Didsbury mosque is unfair. How is talking about Western


civilisation out of context? We don't know who handed it


to you, or who wrote it. It's a charity leaflet that's given


out officially from Didsbury mosque I want people to listen


to me very carefully. I was born in Manchester,


I was raised in Manchester. I am a proud Manc


and a proud Muslim. And I'm hurting after


what happened on Monday. And what happened on Monday


night was an evil act, an abhorrent act that


should be condemned And to think that somebody can


target small girls, and anybody, but small girls in particular,


to carry out evil, should be said I'm sitting next to a reverend here,


a friend that I've known And it seems that Muslims seem to be


the target and collateral damage Islam is not the reason that


people do bad things. People do bad things


because they are evil And I think that after these things


happen, Islamophobia increases. Let us please not let


people who hate and want We should work together,


stand shoulder to shoulder and say we will not accept hate and we stand


against Islamophobia, and we condemn all sorts


of evil in all its forms. We have veered away from the


original question, how we prevent Brits from radicalisation. You have


heard what Andy Burnham saying the right signal not being sent out.


What is your answer? I met a woman recently who came home and found her


16-year-old son had just gone, just gone to Syria and she hasn't been in


touch with him, she probably won't see him again. She calleded for help


and the Prevent coordinator sent someone to see her who was able to


engage with her and her other children. There was two teenage


girls who needed the support that was available through the Prevent


strategy to make sure that they didn't become radicalised as she had


as well, or as her brother had. Last year, it stopped, we stopped 150


people from going to Syria to fight, of which 50 were children. There is


really strong evidence of Prevent initiatives stopping


deradicalisation and saving people's lives. I would like everybody's help


here making sure we speak up for the good work that is done by Prevent.


The foundation for peace here is one of the largest providers in the


area. Andy, I don't think you would criticise the foundation for peace


for the fantastic work that they do. We have 142 community-led


organisations. This is not about police-led, it's about community-led


organisations, we do exactly as Ian said, safeguard young people. When


you say you stopped 150 people last year going to Syria, do you mean you


wouldn't allow them to leave the country or do you mean you think you


prevented them from leaving the country? There is more evidence of


stopping them at the airport but there's evidence we've stopped 150


people. I can't draw on any more detail than that. I do feel that we


need to be stronger about the fact that Prevent is saving lives and


helping people. It's doing good work and I would like more support trying


to make sure that we get the message out. The final point I was trying to


get over is that it's community-led, it's not about getting policemen


involved, it's about making sure the local organisations like the


foundation for peace are able to engage with young people on that


level. It's not about the Government being, as Sara said, bottom up, it's


about the Government providing support for the communities to work


it out. APPLAUSE.


You, Sir? To Amber Rudd. It's not about getting the police involved -


where's my security, where are all these people's security coming from?


We have PCSOs on the street that walk about with every other bit of


kit I've seen including handcuffs that they do not have the power of


arrest to use. Where's the security coming from? Where's MI5 in all of


this? We have no mention of this tonight. We've got 13.3 billion a


year going out to foreign aid. No, hold on a second... Money that


should be saved in this country and looking after ourselves and I'm


talking about everybody here. It doesn't matter what colour or creed


we are, we look after ourselves first. OK. Let us secure this


country. I can say that we have given additional funding to the


Security Services, they got a 30% uplift because we are making sure we


do invest in the Security Services. You are sending people to a country


that has a space programme and a nuclear war programme. You, Sir? Do


you agree with him? I have a slightly different point on


radicalisation. We have taken off the lid. The perpetrator of this


latest crime was Libyan, so we removed Gaddafi. We have had others


come from various Muslim countries and we've removed Saddam Hussein.


Why this Government, even Labour or Conservative before them, has taken


us to places we don't understand the cultures or the politics of the


people and why we have tried to be the policemen of the world I fail to


understand because if we take our resources away from these


activities, we could have the resources that Colin Parry and Sara


Khan require because we could fund the integration and openness that we


need. Instead, we are still in Afghanistan spending billions and


it's just crazy. Sara Khan? I agree with Nazir when


he says there appears to be a real misunderstanding about the aims and


objectives of Prevent. Let's be very clear about what space Prevent


operates in. It's not desirable or possible for the state to start


arresting people because they become radicalised. You could become


radicalised when you have not committed a criminal offence. So


what do you do with the individuals? That's the space Prevent operates


in. You hear people saying that it's about spying and surveillance, none


of these things are relevant to Prevent at all, they are part of


Pursue, another strand of the Government's Counter-Terrorism


strategy. People often conflate Prevent with Pursue. This is a basic


understanding and I would like to see the Government educate people


about what is Prevent and what Prevent isn't. It's important also


to recognise that it's not Prevent that is taxic, it's the discourse


around Prevent that has become toxic. It's not the Prevent strategy


that is the problem, it's the politicisation around Prevent which


is increasingly becoming a problem. I've seen politicians, for example,


make unfounded claims about Prevent saying that if a Muslim child no


longer decides to eat at McDonald's, that will lead to a Prevent


referral. Nonsense. I've sheered many false untruths about Prevent.


How will that encourage trust between Muslims who want to do this


work and with the Government? It doesn't. I'm going to really have to


point this out also, the fact is in this country we have Muslim-led


organisations who're actively seeking to make sure Prevent fails,


and that is no surprise to anybody since 2011, organisations like Alma


hajj ran which is prescribed run by the infamous am January Chowdry,


they were at the forefront of saying, we see in Prevent a direct


challenge to our attempt of trying to radicalise young Muslims -- Anjam


Channel 4 Newsry. You are seeing them taking up that baton and


spreading lies. Can I ask you about the work Prevent is doing, have you


come across people saying to you, what the British Government is doing


in our name is something we abhor? There is no black-and-white answer


to this issue of foreign policy which we talk about all the time.


When we look at people like Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ring leader of


7/7, he made clear one of his prime motivations was our country's


involvement in the Iraq war in 2003. I come across 13-year-old girls who


tell me that they want to go and live in Isis caliphate because they


think it's some sort of Islamic Disneyland. These girls weren't even


born before the Iraq war in 2003, so foreign policy has no relevance to


those individuals. They have been online, they have been reading


Islamist propaganda and Isis propaganda which we are not


countering enough. What are the parents doing about it? We have to


have a multipronged approach. My organisation's delivered


counternarratives to ideaologyists, to Muslim parents to equip them to


build resilience in children. I want to make another point very quickly.


We have to look at what Isis have said. Last year - they have an


English online magazine - one of their editions last year, they made


it clear foreign policy isn't the reason they seek to attack and kill


us. They clearly said, we hate you first and foremost because you are


disbelievers, because of our secular liberal values. That's what Isis


themselves are saying. I want to come back... Andy Burnham? The


individuals that commit these acts, and this was true in Paris as well,


they did not live a devout Muslim lifestyle, they're not true Muslims


in any way shape or form. The problem I hear is that the idea that


the person who committed this awful atrocity this week or who attacked


Westminster, suggestions that they in some way represent the Muslim


community, they no more represent the Muslim community as the person


who killed Jo Cox represents the white community. With respect, Sara


Khan, you don't understand the Muslim community. I've just complete


add both thesis event. I work in a school safeguarding, we don't want


children radicalises, but the NUT said suspicion in the classroom,


confusion in the staff room, that's what it's causing. We want the


principles of Prevent, none of us want radicalisation but let's be


clear that for Prevent to work, it has to first of all get on board and


has to be community-led, not just with Government favourite


organisations with grass root organisations like organisations I


work with in Manchester so I think it needs to appeal to everybody and


we are all on board with the principles of prevent no doubt.


Let's root out the causes of terrorism. Let's not try and


focus... Prevent duty guidance actually says how do you spot a


terrorist basically and the chief reviewer David Anderson, his own


report mentions certain facts that changes need to be made. The Home


Secretary, the few examples that you quoted, I do agree there could be


some benefit and I read about those examples where families were


comforted. Those are far and few between. The channel referrals that


have caused damage, the incorrect channel referrals unfortunately


because it's maybe lack of experience have caused far more


damage within innocent families. Thank you very much. Nazir?


APPLAUSE. Can I say, what you said is


absolutely right. There are some issues around the training, there


are some issues in the way it's implemented. I think you used the


word it's a "new" approach and people are overzealous some times in


how they apply it and some people don't understand what they are


doing. That is being dealt with, I assure you. In terms of the


religious theology behind this, I'm a British Muslim, you don't love


your... It's like having two children, you don't love your first


child any less when you have a second. I'm absolutely delighted and


proud to be born in this country and to live in this country and I was


Chief Prosecutor, I didn't go out blowing people up or wanting to harm


somebody so there's something else going on here. There are examples


which the Home Secretary referred to. One guy on his way to Syria to


join Isis, the last thing he wrote was a book called Islam for Dummies.


He knew he needed something... That is the point. I get that but he


needed something to get through the recruitment process. Religion wasn't


what drove him. There was grievances, redemption, ego. How


many of the people working for Isis suddenly become commanders of a


platoon of two. They go there for all sorts of reasons. That's why we


have to have an approach that isn't one-size-fits-all but that does work


with the communities, absolutely. All right. A number of hands up. I


want to take a question from Shelley Blackstone, please?


Isn't it about time that anyone who is a suspected terrorist should be


thrown out of the UK immediately? Amber Rudd? I think that's quite a


difficult definition to have - anyone who is a suspected terrorist.


As Sara said, you have got a situation where people are becoming


radicalised, maybe having radical thoughts but it doesn't mean they


have committed a crime. We have the rule of law, we have to make sure


that we do it correctly. Don't think that we are not making


sure, that we are keeping everybody protected. We have our strategy on


Prevent which is controversial, as we have heard tonight, but I think


stopping people becoming radicalised still. We have an Intelligence


Service working close with the police delivering results. 18


serious plots have been foiled since 2013. They do fantastic work to keep


us safe. We will take action, of course, where we see that there are


terrorist or potential terrorist conversations. The Intelligence


Services are doing their jobs well in order to do this. Your answer is,


you can't throw people out of the UK because they're a suspected


terrorist, but you do say in your Conservative manifesto we are going


to consider new criminal offences that might be created to defeat


terrorism. What kind of new criminal offences are you going to consider


creating? Well, it will depend what comes out


of our various initiatives We're going to have a commission


on extremism, to find out We want to tackle this in a way that


I hope will engage the communities But terrorists, don't forget,


also come from abroad, so we work internationally


with other countries, with European partners,


with other countries from further afield, particularly trying to spot


any returning foreign fighters, to make sure they don't get


into the country, as well as looking But British fighters who go abroad,


you can't do anything about them Well, we have a lot of tools


at our disposal to try and make sure that we stop them coming back


where we can. But if they do come back,


we have the evidence But on the point that you make,


new criminal offences, from what I hear from you,


you are not really thinking You are just saying


you are going to consider it. No, we are thinking


about new criminal offences. I can't be drawn on that


at the moment, I'm afraid, David. Because you don't know


the answer, or because... I just don't want to have


that discussion here. It would be difficult


to have right here. Sara Khan, what do you make


of the point that we should be much rougher, tougher


on suspected terrorists? I agree with the Home Secretary


that when we are talking about suspected terrorists,


the idea that we throw people like that out


of our country is not the way Look, we have to stand


for our values. That includes the rule of law,


standing for human rights. I fundamentally believe


that the best way we are going to win this battle against extremism


is through the prism Already, we are seeing people


who are being convicted. There have been around 269 people


convicted between the period Also, we have to be very careful


when we are saying this person We have to go through the rule


of law, and I think that's I just can't get over


what happened on Monday. And had anybody known


that he was capable of what he was capable


of doing, you know... I don't think there's a single


person in this room who is not feeling what you're saying and does


not have sympathy with But throwing them out is not the way


of solving this problem. It's about dealing with having


a multi pronged strategy. We can counter this in a much


more effective manner. If you want to throw them anywhere,


throw them into my Peace Centre and we will take as long as it takes


to try and change the way We've got ample


evidence we can do it. We reintegrate them into British


society as best we can. We cannot abandon the rule


of law and say, you are First of all, I would like to say


that my thoughts and prayers are with the victims


and their families. I'm a British Muslim and I'm very


proud of my heritage. And there is an elephant


in the room here. And unfortunately, it is very


unfortunate, there is an issue with regards to radicalisation


and extremism that does exist That is something


that we have to accept. I would like to go back


to what the gentleman over there was saying,


when he referenced a mosque. Yes, we do have an issue


within our mosques, We have children being taught the


Wahhabi interpretation of the Koran. We have Saudi trained clerics


coming in and speaking I would say, for now, temporarily,


close down all Saudi- And I myself as a


Muslim am a Muslim. Not only do we have our own


home-grown terrorists, but terrorism is also being imported


right under our noses. There are no Saudi funded


mosques in the UK. There used to be money


that was brought in from abroad but that has all stopped


a long time ago. Are there no Wahhabi preachers


and no Saudi money at all? There is a difference between Saudi


money and Wahhabi preachers. Can you pick up the point of


the Muslim woman who said you have to face the fact that there is a lot


of language of, radical language I don't go to any meeting, for


example, which is exclusively men. I ensure that if they invite me


to a place of worship, We have to confront them


when they are coming up with the kinds of things you have


just identified yourself. Because that's how, sadly,


this generates even more hate. How they generate difference


as well, which is something that But at the same time,


the communities themselves One of the things I'm doing


is setting up a community Cobra, which is made up of not the usual


suspects, but people perhaps like you, you might want to join,


who are young, who understand the issues and work together to try


and develop solutions. And I think that's


what we need to do. There is a deficit in Muslim


leadership in this country. The vast majority, the majority


of Muslims are now under 25, female The leaders are male, over 50


from middle-class backgrounds. Well, you stop talking,


sadly, to people like me. You stop talking to the older


generation, the people who claim The white community don't


have community leaders. Why do we suddenly assume that


minorities have community leaders? We start talking to


people in students land. We get them into the room


and talk to them about how Let me have one quick


question from Assad Riaz, and then I want to go back


to the other point. To what extent have the leaked


security details jeopardised our I want to put this to you,


Amber Rudd, and also to what extent it may have jeopardised


the police investigations here. I took it up with Secretary Kelly


and the Attorney General and made very clear that they needed to sort


the situation out. The Prime Minister has spoken


to President Trump today and he has I understand today that the head


of counterterrorism has said that I don't believe it has


damaged the investigation, In the short term,


what was so upsetting about it was that it must have been


such a terrible thing for the families to see, when this


was a well-run investigation. Actually, our newspapers had


behaved well in terms of working with investigators,


not releasing information So I think it was very hard


on the families but I hope From the minute the attack happened,


information was beginning I raised it with the US ambassador


earlier in the week and said, The lead investigator has to control


the release of information, the British police,


because otherwise you can I said that and then


it happened again. Families were in a hotel


in Manchester, not even able to go to the scene,


and yet there were pictures It's absolutely outrageous


what has happened this week. It is arrogant of the Americans,


and it is disrespectful Most importantly, the families


of those who died and It's my job to speak up for


the people of Greater Manchester. Well, I think at this stage,


the damage is manageable I don't think there has


been any serious damage. But there is an important


point of principle here. I don't want a diplomatic row,


but this cannot happen again, and we need to make


that absolutely clear. I want to end with a question


from Irfan Munir, please. My eight-year-old English daughter


asked me why her friends What can be done to stop


hate towards Muslims? That happened yesterday,


and also the journey I had to explain


to her what a bomb is. It was an absolutely horrendous


journey into work this morning. Sara Khan, we only have a couple


of minutes, but what can be done? It's absolutely horrendous


that we hear this. Even the NSPCC and ChildLine


and other organisations are picking up the fact that there are Muslim


children experiencing this kind And for me this is part


of a wider issue, really. It's about how we talk about


British Muslims in this country. Trying to promote British Muslims


as a homogenous community is not the right way of dealing


with the situation. The fact of the matter


is we have to recognise There is a positive trend among


Muslims who are integrated, contributing to our country


in all sorts of manners, serving in the Armed Forces,


doctors, in the arts, But at the same time,


we have to recognise that there is a negative trend


amongst some British Muslims who oppose democracy,


who despise different interpretations and pluralistic


interpretations of the religion. We have to counter those negative


people, because it's what you said, Because that counters and feeds


that kind of narrative. We've got to show that it is not


a homogenous Muslim community. The worry is that increasingly


British people will think all Muslims are terrorists,


because the hard-line people who print those leaflets


that this chap mentioned, who are the very extreme end


of the Muslim faith, are those who are discrediting


the whole of the Muslim faith. The overwhelming majority of Muslim


people are the same as the rest of us in this country,


whatever our faith, good people. But your poor kid is going


to get tagged with that. That's exactly what


the bomber wants. Absolutely, what Colin


said is right, this I am glad she was able to open up


to you and you could Ultimately, as parents we need


to talk to our children and that's I think part of the answer is to be


careful with language. People talk about Muslim terrorism,


or Islamic terrorism, and that suggests that this


is the whole of the Muslim That is very dangerous,


if you suggest that is the case. I think the BBC are wrong to say


so-called Islamic State. They should call them Daesh,


because don't give them the kind of impression that they represent


the whole Muslim community. These people that are involved


in this terrible act They should be described as such


and they should not be described in a way that casts this kind


of terrible sense of gloom and despair over


the Muslim community. Colin Parry's absolutely right


to say what he just said. These individuals do not represent


the Muslim community in Greater Manchester,


and that needs to be pointed out Your daughter had the confidence


to report it to you. We need to make sure that everybody


has the confidence to call out hate The first thing I did


as Home Secretary was to publish Now, more than ever,


we need to make sure that people have the confidence


to report hate crime. And we will particularly engage


with the schools to ensure that they have the ability


and the information they need over this difficult period to engage


with young people as well. Thank you very much,


everybody, and I'm sorry to those of you have your hands up


and have not been able to get in. Question Time is going to be


in Barnet next week. Then we have leaders'


specials, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, one


after the And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron


on Sunday 4th Jne in Edinburgh. And Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron


on Sunday 4th June in Edinburgh. If you want to put questions


to those leaders, details of how If you are listening on 5Live


there's reaction to what's been said panellists who came here tonight,


and particular thanks to all of you who came here to take


part in this debate. From Salford, in Greater Manchester,


and from Question until next


David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Salford in Greater Manchester. On the panel are home secretary Amber Rudd, mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham, anti-extremism campaigner Sara Khan, head of the Police and Crime Commissioners Association Nazir Afzal, and peace campaigner Colin Parry.

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