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It's D-Day minus three. On Thursday, we must all decide. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Tonight, the leader of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
and leader of the Scottish National Party Nicola Sturgeon | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
David can't be here tonight. He's preparing for the big night. | :00:14. | :00:33. | |
Over the next hour, our audience here in Edinburgh | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
will put their questions to two party leaders. | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
Neither are pretending they'll be your next Prime Minister, | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
but they could play a vital role in shaping the future | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
of the country, indeed, its very existence. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
You can join in from home on Twitter, Facebook and text. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
As ever, our guests have not seen the questions they're about to face | :00:52. | :01:02. | |
and they drew lots to decide who would start. | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
So first, please welcome the leader of the Liberal | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
Good evening. Good evening, Nick. Good evening, Mr Farren, thank you | :01:08. | :01:33. | |
for joining us. Let's get the first question tonight. | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
If properly controlled, why is internet surveillance | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
OK, firstly, Marco, you would like everyone else would have been here | :01:39. | :01:51. | |
last night, but we, of course Whiteley, this boned to pay tribute | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
to those who died. -- of course, rightly, postponed to paid tribute | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
to who died. We stand in solidarity with all those killed and injured | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
and their loved ones and those affected by the London attacks. You | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
think about what you are going to say when you come on a programme | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
like this after an event as happened on Saturday night. And you remember | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
yourself saying really similar things a fortnight earlier, after | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
the appalling outrage in Manchester. To my mind, our reactions, maybe | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
they are similar. Mine are heartbreak, the impact on those | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
individuals and their families, and frankly, anger that this should | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
happen to people in our community, that it should happen at all, such | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
utter wickedness. Therefore, the desire for something to be done is | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
utterly right. So the question is what is that? Indeed, so here we go. | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Do we believe that the reason we have not been able to prevent | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
outrages such as those on Saturday night and two weeks ago in | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
Manchester was because of a lack of surveillance? Or was it because of a | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
lack of resources? It seems to me, for example, that we have at the | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
moment the ability, our powers, -- the powers, the police and security | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
services have the powers to follow and track criminals, to be able to | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
pursue terrorists, to be able to hack into their devices. What we | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
don't have is sufficient pairs of eyes and hands in our security | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
services and in our police force is to be able to pursue them and to | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
catch them. Now I don't know what could be done to prevent three utter | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
murderous cowards in a white van deciding to do what they did on | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
Saturday night but I do know that we are much safer if we invest in | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
police and in our security services. The additional 300 million that the | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
Liberal Democrats would put into policing across the country would | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
make us safer. The cuts Theresa May has made in the last seven years as | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
Home Secretary and Prime Minister have not made us safer. APPLAUSE | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
Are you convinced by that? I feel we are restricted and the police are | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
restricted in the surveillance they can do. I think they should have | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
more powers to be able to monitor these people, especially where data | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
has been encrypted on mobile phones. It is a new world we live in. Why in | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
your manifesto do you say, picking up on that point, that he would | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
"Rollback state surveillance powers"? It is not that you don't | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
want new powers, you want fewer? We are talking about the snoopers | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
charter, data surveillance, however you want to describe it. This is the | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
issue, when we are trying to deal with terrorists and suspected | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
terrorists, we need to be able to focus on what they do and who they | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
talk to. What we have at the moment, if you like, is an ever widening | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
haystack and we are looking for a needle. The answer is not to put | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
more hay into the haystack. It is to put more magnets around the haystack | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
so we can find what is in there in the first place. So you don't want | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
those powers, you want them rolled back? There are two things, I have a | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
practical concern and a principled concern. The practical concern is | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
this, our security services utterly need the ability to be able to catch | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
and trace people but the widening of powers is not something the evidence | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
is there to support. It is a practical problem and there is a | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
principal issue. The lady in the middle. You have said that the | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
practical is to put more police effectively back on the beat again, | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
that the Conservatives have got rid of, 20,000 bobbies on the beat. Are | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
you going to give them more than a big stick? Let's takes a mother | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
views. Lady at the front. One of the terrorists was known, he appeared on | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
an ITV 4 documentary. Channel 4. Unveiling an Isis flag. We have | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
thousands of Jawad is being allowed back into the country. Why are they | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
being allowed back into the country and why are we not in turning the | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
people we know are problematic? And the gentleman at the front. Just, I | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
don't want to feel like the thing is too reactionary and we are just | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
taking this for one issue to strengthen powers against terrorism. | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Terrorism, by its own mindset, is basically to create fear and to | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
create a reaction. Strengthening views like that might be used | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
indirectly. Yes, we were hearing about a big stick. So we need to | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
have resources. Cressida Dick said today she did not favour and did not | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
think it would make us a safer country if we armed every officer in | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
the UK. I agree with her but that does not mean we shouldn't have more | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
resources and off that ?300 million the Liberal Democrats would give to | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
the police force, some of that would go towards ensuring we have that | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
capability. There's a question about people being allowed back in the | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
country and that is a really good question, given we had a question | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
about the powers we do or don't need. The government has, the Home | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
Secretary has the power to issue temporary exclusion orders. In the | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
last two years, she has used one. We know of people who potentially could | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
have been stopped. It is not whether we have the powers, it is whether we | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
use them. But it is not just that because you say in your manifesto | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
you want to rollback powers. You oppose powers for the security | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
services to read encrypted measures, -- cryptic messages, oppose taking | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
Internet history, you oppose the anti-radicalisation Prevent strategy | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
and you once talked about a paranoid, authoritarian state. You | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
are the new no powers man. We want to back the police do have resources | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
to do something about it. At times like this, it is very easy and | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
tempting for a politician to come up with a knee jerk, sounds good | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
response. I want to do some good. I realise at this point, people are | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
seeking answers and want to see action. For example, you talked | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
about the anti-radicalisation strategy, and you asked the question | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
before about people we know about and are not tackling. We know that | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
the murder in Manchester was reported by his community on five | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
separate occasions. -- the murderer in Manchester. That is a reminder | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
out there the community are desperate to tackle terrorism and | :08:20. | :08:21. | |
the police and security services don't have the resources to enable | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
them to do it. That is where the priority must be. So even if the | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
police and security services say they want more powers, you say they | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
are wrong and they can have more money but not more powers. If you | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
listen to the police and security services, what they want most is the | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
resources to catch people and there's also a point, what do | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
terrorists want us to do, to turn in on ourselves and be divided as a | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
country? They want us to give up on our freedoms and our liberties and | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
those are the things we must not sacrificed otherwise the terrorists | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
would have won. APPLAUSE Time for your next question. | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
Changing the subject, moving on to the issue of Brexit. | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
Is your second referendum strategy in any way respecting | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
I always think that if you believe in people having a vote, that is | :09:09. | :09:18. | |
generally quite democratic. I take the view that the result last June, | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
52-48, as narrow as it was, nevertheless, the government has the | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
mandate to negotiate Brexit and that is the direction the country is | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
going in. If I'm honest, it breaks my heart. I'm someone who believed | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
that Britain would still be better at the heart of the European Union. | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
Nevertheless, I accept that if the narrow wheel of the people. The | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
thing is this, though, what happens next? One might argue that Theresa | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
May has called the election as early as she has, despite the fact she | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
also has a clear majority in parliament because Labour backed | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
her, she has called it now before the details of Brexit become clear. | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
That plan, that deal that Theresa May and indeed the European leaders | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
will negotiate, will impact upon all of our lives, the younger we are, | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
for longer, and it will impact on the prices we pay at the | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
supermarket, on jobs and everything else. The single point here, Nick, | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
if I can finish... Then you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. It is | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
simply this that we will have to live with this deal for the next | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
several generations and it will either get signed off by the | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
politicians or by the people. What if it is a bad deal and I mean | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
dementia tax bad, that kind of bad? If it is that bad, shouldn't you | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
have the final say and not the politicians in Kenedy filled rooms | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
in Brussels and London. APPLAUSE We are having a general election to | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
decide who will give us the best deal going forward. Why do we need | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
another referendum to save we will take the deal or not? Which way did | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
you vote in the referendum? I voted to leave. The gentleman just down | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
here? Second referendum for the EU, why not a second referendum. And? | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
APPLAUSE Both Scotland and Northern Ireland, | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
as you know the voted overwhelmingly to remain. We are partners, equal | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
partners of the union, not regions. Do you support Nicola Sturgeon being | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
at the top table for Brexit negotiations? Let's comeback to the | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
Scottish issues particularly in a second and first deal with Ashley's | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
point, which is that she thinks you are not listening to the will of the | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
people. What part of no don't you understand? Fundamentally, my view, | :11:36. | :11:45. | |
I'm a Democrat. But you are not because you say there was a vote and | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
you want to have another one. We had a general election two years ago and | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
we appear to be having another one... APPLAUSE | :11:52. | :11:52. | |
I absolutely accept the result of the referendum and the people I | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
blame for the situation we have got ourselves in our David Cameron and | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
George Osborne who took the chance on our country's future and our | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
children will pay for it and they were on the Remained side so I blame | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
them if it's anyone. We are a country learned to deal with a new | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
future and we must do it together but that deal that none of us know | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
the content stop will be stitched up behind closed doors by Brussels and | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
London and I simply say the final deal will be stitched up, or rather | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
decided, endorsed by someone, either the politicians or the people. I | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
think it is ultimately democratic to say it must be the people. APPLAUSE | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
Do you want to come back to the Scotland question? The difference | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
between the positions. Let's carry on with the Brexit position, whether | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
people think you are or not listening to the will of the people? | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
Doesn't it just underline that a yes or no referendum is a blunt | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
instrument to make constitutional decisions with? Can I be honest and | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
say I'm not an enormous fan with referendums but if you start with | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
democracy, you can't end up with a stitch up. We voted for departure | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
last June but we did not vote on the destination. It was not on the | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
ballot paper and the only person I blame for that is David Cameron, it | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
is nobody 's fault but his but we have started with democracy and we | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
cannot end this process with a stitch up. After that, I will be | :13:14. | :13:15. | |
happy if we never have another referendum. I'm a young person and I | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
have just come back from living in the European Union and I really feel | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
like I'm being shut out of this debate about free movement, about | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
losing free movement, which would be so damaging to my life chances. Why | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
shouldn't I get a say on what kind of Brexit I want to see? I think | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
Vista Farron will agree with that. As a little reminder, it is a | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
brilliant point, but tee things I want to say, first, the majority | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
voted to leave, that is the result in the direction of the country but | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
all of us, especially the leaders, must not forget that three quarters | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
of young people voted to remain and they will have to live with the | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
consequences of this for longer than most of us. The second point, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
freedom of movement is often raised but what about freedom of movement | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
for British people? Our ability to live, work and study, love and | :14:14. | :14:14. | |
explore overseas? These things matter, too, which is why the | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
content of the deal should be agreed by the people, not the politicians. | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
Forgive me, these are the arguments you put in the referendum and you | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
were defeated. 48% of the population voted Remain, nobody quite trust 's | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
opinion polls at the moment and not one of them as you above 10%. This | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
is not exactly a popular cause, is it? Cliche klaxon number one, the | :14:37. | :14:46. | |
only poll that matters is the one on Thursday. But it is right... If | :14:47. | :14:48. | |
people really wanted what you wanted, you would be a very popular | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
man, wouldn't you? That's a good question and I'm sure it may be so. | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
Firstly, doing what you believe in is the right thing to do, some | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
people think we take a calculation of our position, on this matter of | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
democracy for the final deal but do you know my major motivation? In 30 | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
years' time, when my children are my age, I want to look them in the eye | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
and tell them I did everything I could to protect their future. That | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
is what being in politics should be about, not narrow calculation. | :15:12. | :15:12. | |
APPLAUSE The gentleman at the front here as | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
Stewart about the Scottish referendum. A second referendum is | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
OK for Europe but it's not good enough for the people of Scotland, | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
and we were promised the only way we could stay in Europe was by voting | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
no. OK, so the answer to this question starts with me saying | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
something nice about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, wait for it. Nearly | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
three years ago, when Scotland had the chance to vote to leave the | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
United Kingdom, the SNP, it's then First Minister Alex Salmond, | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
produced a 650 page white paper showing what leaving the United | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
Kingdom would look like for Scotland. And 12 months ago, Nigel | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Farage presented us with a lie on the side of a bus. They are not | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
comparable. The Scottish people voted in that referendum knowing not | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
just departure but destination also. They had no idea of the destination | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
because Britain have not elected Conservative Government but was | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
committed to have a referendum that eventually took us out of EU. The | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
people of Scotland voted on the basis of a false prospectus. If you | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
are a Democrat, why not give them another go? I fully respect whatever | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
people feel on both sides of the issue on independence. I am bound to | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
say as a northerner, it breaks my heart, the thought but you want to | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
leave us lot saddled with the Tories, please don't go, but the | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
second thing I would say on this is that we as a party stood in the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
Holyrood elections, the Scottish Parliamentary elections, last May, | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
on a manifesto committed to Scotland as part of the United Kingdom and so | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
keeping to our mandate, it is right that we say we continue to support | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
the union and they're not being a rerun of the Scottish referendum. A | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
couple of quick points. In 2014, Scotland was told that if it wanted | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
to stay in the EU, it would have to vote no, so Scotland voted no and | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
endorsed the EU. In 2016, Scotland voted to remain in the EU. Twice in | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
two years, Scotland has endorsed the EU. Surely the only way to get a | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
route back into the EU per Scotland is to become an independent country? | :17:34. | :17:41. | |
Would you not agree there is misinformation on either side of | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
these referenda? There is certainly misinformation from the EU and there | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
was misinformation from the no campaign in regards to what we would | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
get if we stayed in the EU. You have less than ten seats now, you will | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
have less than ten seats in a week's time, what is the point of a vote | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
for the liberal platitudes? Thank you very much! If the polling is to | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
be believed, one third of the folks in here support the SNP and enough | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
respect to all of you and two years ago, you had six MPs and whether I | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
like it or not, you have made a significant difference in that time, | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
so don't write off people on the current number of MPs in single | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
digits. There were a bunch of questions about what happens next | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
and the rest of it. My view is simply this, as somebody who is a | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
northerner, committed to my collective British identity, I want | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
us to be a United Kingdom. I totally respect those who believe in | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
independence but I politely disagree. The issue about there | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
being untruths or wrong arguments on either side, Juno what? I mean, I | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
most critical about the arguments used by those who operated the | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
Remain Campaign. Talking about misuse of information. Why won't you | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
give them a Scotland referendum again? I think I have explained | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
that. You asked me a question about people giving wrong arguments and | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
all the rest of it. Can I point at the moment, I'm fairly sure, that | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
Remain lost the referendum last year? It was the moment the George | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
Osborne, who I should be nice to because he may or not print this, he | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
pointed out that if you leave the European Union, usual foreign | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
holiday, you lose your savings, you lose your pension, you lose your | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
job. A whole bunch of people in this country thought I had got none of | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
them, stuff you. The arguments for remain were not the emotional | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
inspiring ones that should have been used and we could well have won. | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
That is the history, a new question please, from Ann Treherne. | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
Do you feel conflicted between your faith and your policies? | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
Not in the slightest. I mean, my identity, like most of you in here, | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
is multiple in the sense that I am a father, yes I am a Christian, I am a | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
northerner, not as northerly as most of you but I count myself as a | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
northerner, I am a Liberal Democrat, I could be facetious and say I am a | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
Blackburn Rovers fan. All of these things make-up who I am and we all | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
but blend of different identities and I believe somebody who lives in | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
a society like this, which is so diverse and so balanced, I couldn't | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
want to pick another country in the world to be in. You know why the | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
question is being asked, it is because you have been asked it again | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
and again and you may consider it unfair that you have often been | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
asked whether you regard homosexuality as a sin? You have not | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
wanted to answer the question. No is the answer to that question. You | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
don't think it is a sin? Do you think abortion is wrong? The | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
question is do you act in a way because of what you believe | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
sincerely in your heart in a liberal fashion and defend people's rights? | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
I joined the Liberal party, as it was then, when I was 16 but one of | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
the very first campaigns I was involved in was trying to abolish | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
and get rid of section 28, that homophobic piece of legislation | :21:08. | :21:09. | |
introduced by the Conservative Government of that time and writes | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
the way through my time, passionate for LGBT plus rights, particularly | :21:18. | :21:19. | |
when we were in coalition Government, introducing gay | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
marriage, and that is what is important. He has been clear, he | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
doesn't regard homosexuality as a sin. What you think. You answer the | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
earlier question by saying you have to do what you believe in, you have | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
been active in LGBT and voted in favour of gay marriage, which I am | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
impressed by, I respect that. That must be very difficult with a | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
Christian evangelical background. No, if you are a liberal, you fight | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
for everybody's right to be who they are. I honestly don't understand the | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
conflict people think is there. Why is it so hard to answer the | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
question? I am not somebody who wants to go around talking about my | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
faith all the time. But you have had lots of interviews, you must be | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
tempted to say let's have done with this and answer it? Or you could | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
actually take the view that I am not running to the Pope and am not... | :22:18. | :22:26. | |
APPLAUSE So I am a political leader, not a | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
religious one. So I don't judge anybody. Utterly | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
key to my bed, for what it is worth, you treat others as you want to be | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
treated yourself -- key to my fate. You do not judge other people | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
otherwise you yourself will be judged. We will move onto another | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
subject and another. Frank Donnelly. Can we trust the Liberal Democrats | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
after the U-turn on tuition fees that left their reputation | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
in tatters? APPLAUSE | :22:52. | :23:03. | |
So, I am the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I made a promise to my | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
constituents by signing the pledge in 2015 to vote against an increase | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
in tuition fees and I kept my pledge. You can argue it cost me a | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
place as a Minister during that time of the coalition Government. It's | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
important to keep your promises. It's also important to do what is | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
right by the people that you represent. Whatever one thinks about | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
tuition fees, I can tell you from my experience as a working-class lad | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
who got to university in the late 1980s, what helped me to get to | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
university was the simple fact that I got a maintenance award and that | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
is what made the difference between me and my folks being able to afford | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
me going to university. That is what the Liberal Democrats are committed | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
to replacing, bringing in a ?7,000 a year maintenance award, so folks | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
like me and many in the United Kingdom, Mike Berry can afford to go | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
to university. -- can afford to go. Are you convinced? I just think if | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
the Conservatives don't get the majority they need, and there is | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
another coalition, how many of the pledges you have made just there | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
will be turned over? We are not going into coalition, I have made it | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
clear. Whether one likes it or not, Theresa May is heading for a | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
landslide on Thursday, one wishes she wouldn't... You just told us not | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
to trust the polls, how do you know she is heading for a landslide? | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
There you go, you got me. Nick, you got there, but one assumes. Nobody | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
calls an election at the point that she did she did not assume... Maybe | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
she is taking it for granted that is the outcome. Either way, we have | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
been very clear, we will not be going into coalition with any party | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
after this election. You can still make a massive difference in | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
opposition. Here in Scotland, quite a good example is the SNP | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
Government, just short of a majority here, the Liberal Democrats are not | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
in coalition or partnership for any pact with the SNP Government. We | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
stay in opposition and we make a difference from the opposite side. | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
If you want to stop dementia tax cuts in education and hospitals, in | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
opposition gives you the chance. Just on tuition fees, slightly | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
puzzling thing, your party promised to scrap fees after the election but | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
you introduce them. You voted against these but you know so you | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
will keep them because they are Pereira. Any wonder that people find | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
it hard to trust your party? -- they are fairer. That was always about | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
trust and not tuition fees. On the detail of the policy, has things are | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
now in England, you have to be earning ?70,000 a year now before | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
the new system that we introduced is more expensive for you than the one | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
that was replaced by Labour. So it is about making things better. The | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
priority of Ross is bringing back maintenance grants so working-class | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
kids can go to university in larger numbers. I am going to ask Josh West | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
to ask the question. How can the Liberal Democrats | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
justify making every tax payer Well, first of all, we absolutely | :26:00. | :26:08. | |
are proud of saying that we are going to be honest with all of you | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
that the NHS and social care across the United Kingdom is in crisis and | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
in England are specially, I would observe. And that means that either | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
you can have platitudes from people who will tell you they can solve | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
this problem without any extra money or we can be brutally honest and | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
savour the price of a cup of coffee a week, we can have the best NHS and | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
social care in the world. My view is this, there isn't a single person | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
who either themselves or their loved ones uses health and care in this | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
country and doesn't know there is a crisis. Social care, you have | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
wonderful, loving people, caring people, caring for our older people | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
who can earn more money stacking shelves at the local supermarket. | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
That is an absolute outrage and I'm determined to solve it and we will | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
solve it by putting a penny on income tax for everybody, to make | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
sure we have the best health and social care in the world. Just spell | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
that out a bit more, you say that is the price of a cup of coffee a week. | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
Take a police constable, for example. How much would you 1p tax | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
rise cost them? An average earner would be ?2 50 a week. A police | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
constable were ?235 a year extra at a time when real incomes are going | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
down. Isn't that important? We clear that what we are doing will make a | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
massive difference. You can do banal offers that you know you are never | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
going to keep or you can make promises... You could tax the rich | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
or big business? The richest in this country would be paying 95% of the | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
burden but this is a colossal problem and either we solve it or we | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
don't and the Liberal Democrats have a plan to solve it and we are going | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
to be honest with you and tell you how we will pay for it. You, sir. | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
You keep saying it is 1p, it is not, it is 1%. The second thing, you | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
mentioned dementia tax. It is nothing to do with dementia and it | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
is not a tax. How will you raise the money for the elderly if those who | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
can pay do pay? There is a great point and you are right to say | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
calling the dementia tax, Theresa May's dementia tax, does not fully | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
explain the situation because people with multiple sclerosis... He says | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
it is not a tax. We are short of time, so briefly. What Theresa May | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
is planning to do is say to everybody in this country who gets a | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
long-term condition, whether it be Alzheimer's or multiple sclerosis or | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
whatever it might be, if you have to get care then your spouse or your | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
children, bad house will have to go on the point of your death. That is | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
not something that is the case now. Theresa May says there will be a cap | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
but give me a colossal majority first and I will tell you what it is | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
going to be. So you think it is bearable somebody who works in | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
McDonald's or claims a hospital to have coupe in their taxes instead of | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
someone who has quite a prosperous background and has a house to pay | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
for their own care? We believe there should be a cap in terms of what you | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
pay for care. The seventh ?2000 cap that once upon a time was a | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
cross-party solution under Andrew Deal not. We believe the dementia | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
tax is an appalling attack on the poorest in this country. Nine out of | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
ten houses will pay for it. If you have dementia or your loved ones | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
have dementia, your house is at risk and on Thursday you have the vote to | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
stop it, to vote Liberal Democrat. Thank you very much your time, | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much to Tim Farron. | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
Sorry to cut off Tim Farron but we need to be fair to our next guest as | :29:37. | :29:51. | |
well. and First Minister of Scotland, | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. Good evening, First Minister. Thank | :29:55. | :30:11. | |
you for joining us. Let's get our first question this evening. | :30:12. | :30:13. | |
What can our politicians do to make our streets safe again? | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
Well, it's possibly the question that is uppermost in everybody's | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
mind right now and all of our thoughts of course remain with those | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
affected by that horrific and cowardly attack in the centre of | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
London on Saturday night and of course with the people of Manchester | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
as well. This is one of the greatest responsibility for any politician | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
and I think the first thing politicians need to do is be honest. | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
There are no easy answers. Often, the knee jerk responses are the | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
wrong ones. Firstly, we have got to tackle and address and challenge | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
extremism wherever we find it. I believe very strongly that we have | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
to do that with the Muslim community will stop we mustn't scapegoat the | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
Muslim community because it is wrong. Most Muslims are as appalled | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
at these attacks as the rest of us. It would also be counter-productive | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
because we are going to find it easier to root out extremism if we | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
are working in partnership with that community. Secondly, we have got to | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
make sure we invest in our security and intelligence services. And we | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
have to make sure we invest in our police. Obviously, one of the big | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
issues of debate today has been the reduction in police numbers in | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
England, 20,000 fewer police officers. In Scotland, we have | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
maintained police numbers and increased the numbers of police | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
officers who are trained to their firearms. After the Manchester | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
attack, Police Scotland was able to have an increased level of policing | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
from within its own resources without calling on the military | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
although we are very grateful for the offer of help from them. These | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
are the things we have to do. Two final points are these, I've made | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
one of them already about not scapegoating particular communities | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
but secondly, we must make sure that in our determination and all of us | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
share it to keep the population safe, we don't start to undermine | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
our own freedoms and civil liberties. These are part of what | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
makes us who we are. If you don't mind me asking, is that like saying | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
don't give new powers to the police and security services? We should | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
always listen very carefully to what the police and security services say | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
but they already have fairly wide-ranging powers. I listen to | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
some of your conversations with Tim Farron. They have asked for new | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
powers in terms of controlling people at home or interception, | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
there's a series of them. We have the ability to tag people who are | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
thought to be extremist, exclusion orders to keep people who have left | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
and gone to places like Syria, to prevent them coming back. The police | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
and security services have wide-ranging powers in terms of | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
interception. What we have to guard against is the security services | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
having so much data and information that they can't make sense of it. | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
There's a number of things we've got to do and I think we have to come | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
together and try to make sure we move forward here with as much | :33:05. | :33:13. | |
consensus as possible. Let's bring back in always. I find it quite | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
disturbing personally that there are armed police on the streets but the | :33:18. | :33:19. | |
incident in London would have been shot down -- shut down a lot sooner | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
if there were more of them around. I'll be perfectly honest, this is | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
one of the trickiest balances we have to strike. We have a police | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
force, not just in Scotland but across the UK, that is routinely | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
unarmed. My feeling is that is how the majority of people would prefer | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
that it stayed. But we must make sure we have got sufficient numbers | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
of armed police officers to respond to incidents like the one in London. | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
Frankly, the response of the police on Saturday night was exceptional. I | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
mean, all of us should be full of gratitude for the speed and | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
effectiveness with which they responded. Frankly, the police | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
saved, I think a lot of lives through their response on Saturday | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
night and we must make sure we support them to do that. APPLAUSE | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
Just before we move on to a different subject, just for clarity, | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
though, you are the third biggest party Westminster at the moment, you | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
would use your votes to vote against new surveillance powers, new forms | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
of control orders, even if, as they have done in recent years, the | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
security services say that is what they would like? We would study very | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
carefully the proposals that came forward, we voted against the | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
snoopers Charter because we thought it went too far in interfering with | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
civil liberties and did not practically enhance police powers in | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
the way we thought was effective but we would always look very carefully | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
and studied the case for any proposal for additional powers. I | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
want to move you want a subject you will be even more familiar talking | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
about, Scottish independence. Let's take the question from Mr Gallaher. | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
With SNP support falling, do you accept that you miscalculated | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
the mood of Scotland by calling another independence referendum? | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
Did you miscalculated the mood? Sometimes in politics, you have to | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
do what you think is right. Don't get me wrong, all politicians make | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
calculations and tactical calculations but sometimes you have | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
to be guided by principle. My position on this is reasonably | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
straightforward when you strip it all away. We face, not just Brexit | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
but perhaps a very extreme form of Brexit, that could have implications | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
and consequences for life in Scotland for generations to come. It | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
could see jobs lost, it could see investment in our country falling, | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
it could see the horizons of our young people in terms of freedom of | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
movement seriously restricted. Now my proposition is simply this, when | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
we get to the end of the Brexit process, and we can see what the | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
implications are for the future of our country, we should have a | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
choice. Do we think that is acceptable and right for Scotland or | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
do we want to choose a different future? Because fundamentally, our | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
future should be decided for us, not bias, which is the principal... A | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
quick point from the audience, sir. What I would say is that with you, | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
Nicola Sturgeon, you are very good at standing and speaking on your | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
podium at Bute House about independence but when it comes to | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
governing the country and tackling the big issues and current health | :36:20. | :36:21. | |
inequality, education, social care and those things, the SNP and | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
yourself are hopeless at it. APPLAUSE | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
We are going to give you the chance to talk about that more later. We | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
will come back to that. Please. Why have your approval ratings declined | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
by so much? You used to be the most popular First Minister but your | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
ratings have gone down ever since you became First Minister. And just | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
in front? I just want to raise a point you made about our future | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
being decided for you, my girlfriend is in the States right now and I'm | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
training to be a medical student, about to be a doctor and I'm going | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
to walk away from the NHS because the Tories are putting in | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
immigration policies that are not benefiting Scotland. I think the | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
people of Scotland will need to have a say, we need to have a voice and | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
you need to bring it forward as soon as possible. I think you would agree | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
with that but let's focus on the ones you might not agree with. They | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
are saying that you announced a second independence referendum, you | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
didn't have to do it, after Brexit, believing it would be popular, it | :37:23. | :37:24. | |
would be the moment that would change it all but in fact, you have | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
become less popular and independence has become less popular. Perhaps | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
putting the polls into context, they all suggest the SNP is on track to | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
win the election in Scotland fairly convincingly. I take nothing for | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
granted, I don't take a single vote for granted but we have to take it | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
in context. The points made by the gentleman here about the | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
responsibilities of the Scottish Government, and I don't stand here | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
and say that we don't have challenges to address but I was | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
hearing as I was waiting to come on, the discussion about the demented | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
tax and in Scotland, we support free personal nursing care so people have | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
less burden on their personal assets when they need care. Our NHS, if you | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
take the A departments, the best performing of any of the NHS systems | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
in the whole of the UK by a considerable distance. Health | :38:08. | :38:21. | |
spending in Scotland per head of population is 7% higher than it is | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
in the rest of the UK. We have more doctors, nurses, health professional | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
than anywhere else in the UK. I think we are doing a good job on | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
these things but we have to continue to make sure we address the | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
challenges we face. Still on the issue of the independence referendum | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
for now because we have other questions coming, I know, on the | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
record of the SNP government. If there was a second vote, should it | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
apply for a minimum period of time, for a generation, 25, 30 years? Of | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
course, you said it would be once in a generation. Let me be perfectly | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
frank about this, when we voted in 2014, we were told that voting to | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
stay in the UK protected our place in the European Union, and voting to | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
be independent risk to our place in the European Union. Less than three | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
years later, we find ourselves facing the prospect of Brexit with | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
no real understanding yet what the implications are for lots of aspects | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
of our change. My simple proposition is it should be our choice when the | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
time is right and we know what Brexit means for our country, to | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
decide what the future of Scotland should be because the alternative to | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
that... Are you saying that on the night you lost the referendum, you | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
went to bed thinking, that's it, there won't be another vote like | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
this for decades, not in my lifetime. On the night of the | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
referendum and until the Brexit rev read, if you'd told me I'd be | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
standing here right now talking about another referendum, I would | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
have said I didn't think that was the case. Many voters think that if | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
your whole life and all you have spent your time thinking about. I | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
want what is best for Scotland and the alternative to not having a | :39:49. | :39:50. | |
choice over our own future is we have to put up with Brexit | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
regardless of how damaging it is and that could mean narrowed horizons | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
for our lost people and tens of thousands of lost jobs. If there was | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
a second vote, would you stipulate for this time that it would apply | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
for a minimum period? I don't think it is right for any politician to | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
dictate to a country what it is future should be. That should be a | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
choice for the people of Scotland. So the answer is no. The lady there. | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
The idea of being possibly excluded from the UK and also Europe of the | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
same time, I find it exceptionally scary, it would give us no control | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
with regards to jobs and I think there's a lot of people who voted | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
SNP the last time you have the same thought. Are we to smaller nation to | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
be excluded from Europe and the rest of the UK? Some of the richest and | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
most prosperous countries in the world are countries of a similar | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
skies to Scotland. If that is your view, that is a choice you could | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
make. -- a similar size to Scotland. But in this election on Thursday, we | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
have a more immediate opportunity as a country to make our voice heard | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
more loudly in the Brexit negotiations, I think, to make sure | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
our interests are not ignored as Theresa May, assuming it is Theresa | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
May, take the negotiations forward. Someone mentioned freedom of | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
movement earlier. Immigration is a really difficult thing for | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
politicians to talk about because people have concerns but one of the | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
biggest challenges facing Scotland right now is the need to grow the | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
working age population. If we have the Conservatives putting more and | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
more restrictions on the ability of the best and brightest from around | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
Europe and the world to come here, that will be damaging for our | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
economy, not just now but for decades to come and I don't think we | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
shouldn't we accept that. Do you think it is right that 50.1% of the | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
population voting for independence could forever take us out of the UK? | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
That comes down to... Those are the rules. It comes down to whether you | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
think referendums are the best way to decide these issues. We will come | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
in to Brexit later. Excuse me, I feel I'm very angry, I'm sitting | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
here and I'm Welsh, I have taught the 1707 act very often and in no | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
way does it mention that Scotland is a country. You signed thataway. You | :42:07. | :42:16. | |
were glad to be part... I want to live at the time! You signed | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
thataway and I feel most denied that you are prepared... I was born in | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
Wales into Great Britain or the UK if you want to call it that, in | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
1933. I am British. I am proud that during the war, we fought with Scots | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
and the English. So you don't want a vote? I want to vote and I don't | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
have one. The man at the bud. You make some very valuable points about | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
the risks of leaving the EU about the ability to travel to work and | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
trade with the rest of the EU. Many, many more of us work and trade and | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
live with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the EU. Surely | :42:53. | :43:02. | |
Scexit is much more dangerous than Brexit? I don't want people to have | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
to choose between travelling and trading with the rest of the UK and | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
doing that with Europe. I think we should have the ability to do both. | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
If you listen to Theresa May and David Davis and other UK politicians | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
right now, they say to the Republic of Ireland that they don't have to | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
choose between trading with Europe and trading with the UK. Why should | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
we lose our ability to trade in the biggest single market in the world, | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
when tens of thousands on jobs depend on us being able to do that? | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
We should be able... The point being made to you... Why should we choose | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
between Scotland and the rest of the UK? The point being made is that you | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
are losing more trade if you choose to leave the UK, even than you would | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
be if you left the EU, I think. Why on earth would we stop trading with | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
the rest of the UK? Let's here from the man who asked the question. | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
Surely that then becomes whatever deal you manage to get after Scexit | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
is with the rest of the UK Government says, sorry, hard | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
bargains, no trade deals, be stuffed. The UK Government right now | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
is saying to Ireland, rightly, let me make care that Brexit does not | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
mean a hard border between the north and south of Ireland, it does not | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
mean interruption to trade. The Prime Minister went to Dublin, I | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
think, and said Ireland does not have to choose between trading with | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
Europe and trading the UK. How is it they can say that to Ireland but try | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
to pretend in Scotland that something different would be the | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
case? We should protect our trade with the UK but in my view, also | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
tried to protect our trade with the single market and the biggest single | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
market in the world, which is eight times bigger than the UK market. | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
That is the best of both words -- both worlds that Scotland should be | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
seeking to secure. I have not given you the chance to defend your | :44:51. | :44:52. | |
policies in government but I will do that now with another question. | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
You've said you want to be judged on education. | :44:59. | :45:00. | |
APPLAUSE For obviously people here and live | :45:01. | :45:12. | |
audience in Edinburgh know what you're talking about but why Chris | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
Woakes forgot what is it about the educational record that you think | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
raises questions? I think on a number of measures, the Scottish | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
education system, which is to be regarded as probably the best in | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
Britain is now, you know, the worst and I think that there have also | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
been misjudgements around things like the funding of tuition fees, | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
free tuition fees, which are paid for by... Just to remind people that | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
health and education are devolved policy so they are determined by | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
your Government. Firstly, I will defend free university tuition. I | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
got the chance to go to university because education was free and I | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
don't think I have the right to take that away from anybody and we have | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
more young people now in Scotland going to university than ever | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
before, including more young people from our most deprived communities. | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
I stood for the Scottish Parliament election last year seeking to be | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
First Minister and said over the course of the Scottish Parliament, | :46:17. | :46:18. | |
my priority was to raise standards in our schools and close the | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
attainment gap and we're working to do that through a range of different | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
reforms and additional investment director into our schools, to | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
headteachers, to allow them to employ additional staff or whatever | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
resources they think are necessary. In the internationally recognised | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
Pisa rankings, Scotland recorded its worst ever results last year for | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
reading, maths and science. That doesn't leave a great deal, does it? | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
Absolutely, these figures are two years old. All figures look at the | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
past. What sparked me making that commitment and I will be when we | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
come to contest the next Scottish Parliamentary elections, if I'm | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
asking people to vote for me again as First Minister, I expect to be | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
judged on that and it is legitimate to me to be asked these questions | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
and answer them but on Thursday, we are not using a Scottish Government, | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
we are choosing MPs who will go to Westminster and vote on public | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
spending, whether the money available to invest in schools and | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
hospitals goes up or down. We will elect MPs to go to Westminster to | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
decide whether the Social Security cuts that the Tories want to impose | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
that are going to drive hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million more | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
children across the UK into poverty and we need to make sure we have | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
strong voices. Do you think that forcing through the Draconian named | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
persons act will improve education results? Do you think you should be | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
focusing on what is important? Can I just make a point with regards to | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
higher education? Even though you have got free education, which, to | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
be honest, it isn't free, we are paying for it as taxpayers, it is | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
having the perverse effect of restricting and rationing places for | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
Scottish students in order for non-Scottish students to pay for | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
that. And secondly, also, the evidence is also showing that | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
regardless... With England having fees, there are in fact more | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
deprived students but percentage compared to Scotland actually go to | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
universities are free education is not... Internationally recognised | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
statistics show that England is more successful in getting deprived young | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
people into university than Scotland, even though the SNP | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
abolished tuition fees. I don't want to be too technical but the stats | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
are not directly comparable. More young people in Scotland than in | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
England and hedged acrylate higher education in further education | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
colleges but we have more Scottish students could university than ever | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
before, we have more places than ever before for Scottish students | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
and the gap between the richest and poorest is starting to narrow. We | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
need to do more. But young people in university are coming out of -- in | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
England are coming out of university with ?27,000 in debt from tuition | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
fees so students in Scotland have much lower debt to take into the | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
start of their working lives. I think education should be based on | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
your ability to learn, not on your ability to pay. Just clarify | :49:14. | :49:22. | |
something, you... It was quoted to you by the questioner, you said it | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
was your top priority and you would resign if you didn't get it right | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
and I think you are saying I might have to resign but not just now, | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
before the Scottish Parliamentary elections. With the greatest | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
respect, I was elected as First Minister in the Scottish | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
Parliamentary elections and put forward a manifesto for a five-year | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
term and at the heart of the manifesto was the priorities in | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
education. When we come to the next Scottish parliament election, I | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
should be judged on how to account, but on Thursday, we are electing MPs | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
hopefully to go to Westminster to protect public spending and stop the | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
Tories pushing more kids into poverty which will make it more | :49:58. | :49:59. | |
difficult for us to improve attainment in our schools. I just | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
want to stick with education and actually want to say that I was | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
quite angry to hear a gentleman earlier saying that Nicola Sturgeon | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
got it wrong with tuition fees. I am a first generation student, no one | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
in my family has been to university before myself and I would never have | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
got there without free tuition for myself, so I am outraged at the | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
suggestion that that is wrong. We will move on. You made your point | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
powerfully but the First Minister has addressed tuition fees. We will | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
move on to another question, if we could, on the issue of tax. Alistair | :50:35. | :50:36. | |
Drummond. How can you support increased top | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
rate taxes for the UK but not use devolved powers to raise | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
Scottish taxes? Just to remind people of the powers, | :50:43. | :50:52. | |
if you wouldn't mind, which is the Scottish Government does have power | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
and has had since 1999 to raise the level of income tax and more | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
recently has had wider powers to raise the top level of tax as well. | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
On the top level of tax, we have the power to set the road. What we don't | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
have power over in Scotland are the rules around tax avoidance, so we | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
don't have the ability to say we would stop people moving their | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
income south of the border or into capital gains, so we took advice and | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
the advice was if that was introduced in Scotland alone, then | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
we would risk not raising more revenue but actually seeing a | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
decline in the revenue we raised. So that is why we didn't do it in | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
Scotland alone. I think it should be done across the UK and if it is done | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
in the rest of the UK, we would do that here in Scotland as well | :51:35. | :51:43. | |
because we could be more competent than of raising extra revenue for | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
our schools and hospitals. There is no point setting a tax if you come | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
out with less money at the end of it. Mr Drummond? But surely if we | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
have independence, it would be exactly the same situation? | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
Absolutely not because with independence, we would have full | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
power about the rules around tax avoidance and overtaxed. We have the | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
power only to set the rate of income tax, we don't have the other powers | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
to go around creating the whole of the tax system. But after many years | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
of people campaigning for greater powers, first for a Scottish | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
parliament and then greater powers for the parliament, they are | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
pointless, these powers are unusable? On that particular issue, | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
they have to be followed for us to allow -- be allowed to use them in | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Scotland. But you don't want to use them in any way? That is not true, | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
we are not raising the basic rate of income tax. At a time of inflation | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
racing, it is not right to ask lower and middle earners to pay more but | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
we have taken a different approach on the higher rate of income tax. | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
Unlike the Conservatives at Westminster, we are not giving a tax | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
cut to people who pay the higher rate of tax. Instead, we are | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
investing that revenue in schools and hospitals and that is absolutely | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
the right thing to do. APPLAUSE | :52:53. | :53:01. | |
I would like to move on for a second because our politicians south have | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
been talking a lot about mental health. Could we talk about tax if | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
you wouldn't mind? I can bring you back. The First Minister races are | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
not meant that we won't raise additional revenue if we raise the | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
top rate of tax -- races and are given that we won't. But in terms of | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
the land tax, you rate it and damaged the Scottish property | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
market. Regarding the 50p tax rate, is a Dodge is true that you want the | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
50p tax rate to affect London and the south-east and receive more | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
money... That is not how it works. If it was introduced in the rest of | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
the UK, we would introduce it in Scotland. I want full powers of | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
attacks in Scotland but right now, if we do it in Scotland alone, we | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
couldn't prevent people shifting their incomes and we would run the | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
risk of losing money. Surely common sense tells you that if the advice | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
as you might lose money by putting a tax up, it would not the most | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
sensible thing to do? I want you to ask your question, you wanted to | :54:00. | :54:01. | |
change the subject onto mental health. Thank you. I just wanted to | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
ask if perhaps we could move one step forward from many pledges that | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
we hear about mental health and have a mental health committee, with MPs | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
and patients alike working together to scrutinise and advise on policies | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
that are going to have a direct impact on their lives? Yes, that is | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
something I will take away and give consideration to. We do try to | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
consult patient groups and consult organisations that work with patient | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
groups before formulating policy in any area but it is particularly | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
important in health matters and I think probably particularly | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
important when it comes to mental health. We are investing a lot of | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
try and improve mental health services just now. One of the good | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
things I think we should all be positive about is that more and more | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
people come forward for mental health help now because the stigma | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
around it is reducing and that is something that is good but it puts | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
more demand on services, so we have a real obligation to invest but I | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
certainly take your suggestion about looking at how we formalise the | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
patient input. Just time for one last main question. Could I get a | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
question from Gillian Main? Would the SNP be prepared | :55:12. | :55:13. | |
to compromise on an independence referendum and join a coalition | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
with another party to stop Just to be clear, when you say | :55:17. | :55:25. | |
compromise, what do you mean? Put it on the back burner for the time | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
being. I said my position on an independence referendum, I certainly | :55:31. | :55:32. | |
would want to be part of an alliance, a progressive alliance, | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
the arithmetic and added that would keep the Conservatives out of power. | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
Part of an alliance that would invest in public services and end | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
the cards to the support for the most vulnerable in our society. But | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
if they if they said they could only work with you, that is the question, | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
if they could only work with you if you said no to a referendum not | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
forever but maybe for a period of a parliament? I think that the end of | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
the Brexit process, people in Scotland should have a choice and I | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
have already set out why that is the case. You are losing a lot of votes, | :56:04. | :56:11. | |
I think, from SNP supporters by continuing with the independence | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
referendum at this time. Because? And I will give the First Minister a | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
chance to reply. Some people just don't want it and don't think it is | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
the right time because everything else that is going on. I'm not | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
proposing now, I accept that point. When are you proposing it? At the | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
end of the process. When is the end of the process? I don't know, I am | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
not in charge. You used to be clearer, Spring 2019. Theresa May | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
says the deal will be done before the UK exits and if that is the | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
case, that is the end of the process, we know what the deal is | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
and if it is not the case, clearly that timetable will be longer. She | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
talked of a transitional deal of year or two, 2020, 2021? She talks | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
about a lot of things like that. I think trying to keep up with Theresa | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
May's positions in this election has become quite difficult on a whole | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
range of different things. Can I come back to your point about a | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
progressive alliance, to use that terminology? I would want to be part | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
of that if it was possible but do you know what? I think looking at | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
the polls, the Conservatives are unfortunately still going to win | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
this election but it is no longer inevitable but Theresa May gets a | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
bigger majority and that is a choice of Scotland, do we vote for MPs that | :57:31. | :57:32. | |
stop Theresa May increasing her majority or not? Last very quick | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
question. You say you want independence to take us back into | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
the European Union. Can I ask you whether you would commit here today | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
to the Scottish fisherman that you will not barter away our fishing | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
resources to join the EU or a single market? | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
APPLAUSE I and the SNP and people before me | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
in the SNP have argued against the Common Fisheries Policy, we have | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
argued for it to be scrapped or fundamentally reformed. It is the | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
Tories time after time that a sold-out Scottish fisherman and | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
believe it, they are shaping up to do it all over again. Thank you very | :58:14. | :58:14. | |
much, I'm afraid you are right time. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks to | :58:15. | :58:23. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. APPLAUSE | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
That is all we have got time for tonight. | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
Question Time and David are back on Friday, | :58:33. | :58:34. | |
the night after the election, for a special programme. | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
Until then, from us here in Edinburgh, from me and the First | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
Minister, thank you for watching. I want to know... | :58:45. | :59:12. | |
..what will happen next. And I want to know... | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
..what it all means... | :59:18. | :59:20. |