09/06/2017 Question Time


09/06/2017

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from London.


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Transcript


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On our panel, the man who ran Theresa May's campaign

:00:00.:00:23.

for the Tory leadership, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

:00:24.:00:27.

Labour's Shadow Attorney General, Shami Chakrabarti.

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The author and former political editor of the Sunday Times

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The comedy writer who created the TV series The Thick

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And the man often thought to have inspired the belligerent spin

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doctor, Malcolm Tucker, Tony Blair's former spokesman,

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Thank you very much, good to see you all here.

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Join in at home using Twitter and Facebook.

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Or text 83981 and push the red button to see

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Our first question comes from Toni-Marie Jarvis.

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Last night showed Theresa May has no mandate, should she resign?

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Alastair Campbell. She has a mandate in she has been to see the Queen and

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the Queen has agreed she should form a government and she has decided to

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form a government propped up by the DUP in Northern Ireland. I would

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ask, does she has any authority? I would say she has lost authority by

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taking an enormous gamble, for entirely party and selfish

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interests, and putting the country into possibly a period of mere

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chaos. Also I am really worried about the deal that she has done to

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stay in power, because the DUP are a party in Northern Ireland that did

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very well in the election, but one of the most important things that is

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at some risk at the moment because of the chaos and confusion in our

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politics is the Northern Ireland peace process and the Good Friday

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Agreement. She has gone into bed with a party from which previous

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governments, including the government led by John Major, have

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always stayed neutral. I am not going to stop you, we will be coming

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to that. Should she resign? She does not have to resign, she can govern,

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but I do not think she will be able to govern for a long and because she

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has fundamentally weakened herself in the eyes of the public and the

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party, and also at a time we are going into the most important

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negotiations of any Prime Minister since the Second World War she is

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losing authority in the eyes of those she will have to negotiate

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with. I think she is bust and flash. Chris Grayling. No, she should not

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resign. You have to remember first of all we want the most seats. She

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won the largest vote share that a Conservative Prime Minister has won

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in a generation. She won more votes than Tony Blair did in 1997. What

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has happened is the votes have fallen in a different way and we

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have ended with a narrow result. I am disappointed we did not do

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better, but she commands more members of Parliament today than all

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of the other parties except the DUP and Sinn Fein together. Not only

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must she not resign, we need to move forward and we need to go into the

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Brexit negotiations and we have to deliver the right outcome for

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Britain and as the person who commands the largest bloc in

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parliament it is right she should stay. She should stay for the entire

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duration of the Parliament? Will she fight the next election? That is a

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question for her, but my view is she says Prime Minister for the

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foreseeable future. You supported her as leader of the party, so you

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must have a view as to having lost a majority, having gambled on the

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election, she should now fight the next election for the Tories, or is

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it just an interim Prime Minister? I am talking about somebody who

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commands the biggest bloc in parliament as we start the most

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important negotiations in a generation. The last thing anybody

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should be doing is should she be here and discussing should she be

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here for the next few months or whatever. Why should it not be

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discussed? We need to get on with it and deliver a stable outcome for

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Great Britain. Shami Chakrabarti. It was extraordinary arrogance and

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having promised people there would be no snap election to call the

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election, presumably because she had made a calculation, no doubt on

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advice that she would get a landslide. She took it for granted.

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I found the way that she conducted her campaign to people for granted

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as well, including not doing debates, including the very negative

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campaigning which we have come to associate with Mr Crosby who ran a

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really nasty smear campaign. Should she go? You are describing a

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campaign that has been very much described. Should she go? Other

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senior Conservatives like Anna Soubry have been saying she should

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consider her position. She should say that because she lost her seat.

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This is an absolute disaster. It is a disaster, but it is not a question

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of whether she should resign, she actually cannot resign. You have to

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think through the mechanics of what would happen now if there was a Tory

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contest. There is not a coronation, there is nobody waiting in the wings

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to be an amazing leader, we are stuck with her. We cannot afford

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weeks of the Tories having a conversation about who they want

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while the clock ticks on the Brexit negotiations. It is not very

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inspiring leadership. I hear what you say. We are where we are. Anna

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Soubry did not lose her seat. She has many colleagues who lost her

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seat. You, sir. She is clearly incompetent and there are U-turns at

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every opportunity and I would much rather have a leader who knew what

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they were doing and was consistent with the public. The man at the

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back. The election campaign was about Brexit. When will we move on

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to Brexit instead of talking about the new leadership campaign? Let's

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get on and move on and get Brexit out of the way. You think this

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election was about Brexit? Yes. What was the evidence for that? It was a

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strong and stable government and she wanted a majority. But she did not

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get it. She said was that she needed more votes and more seeds as if 27

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other countries would be more frightened of her because she had

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more seats. That not happen. I agree she should not resign today. That

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will happen in such good time now. But it is what she did today given

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the position she is in. In a crisis you find that the metal of someone.

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Today she was tone deaf to what happened last night. The votes were

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split across the country, the parties were split across the

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country and the mood in the country, especially with all of those

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participating for the first time, we want some consensus and reaching out

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to the other parties. What she has done is retreat to my default

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position and only huddle in with those she thinks will agree with

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her. She has gone for hard Brexit and the company said no. That has

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confused us and frighten us and we did not talk about hard Brexit. We

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want a further discussion. She has gone into number ten with those who

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will support hard Brexit. It is completely tone deaf to what is

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going on in the country. Chris Grayling? Tone deaf? I do not think

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so. But we have to learn lessons, we did not do as well as we hoped. Also

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a lot of members on Parliament on both sides lost their seats last

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night, a huge shame for them, a huge disappointment because we lost many

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valuable colleagues. We must learn lessons. What lessons must you

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learn? We need to look back at the campaign and the messages and think

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about how we make sure in the future we do better than last night. Can

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you pick out any particular element in the campaign that needs to be

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investigated? Where do you start? We have to get on with the Brexit

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negotiations and deliver the right result. Why did you not learned the

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lesson of what the DUP did in the last few years, which is go into

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partnership with the Sinn Fein. There are other parties she could

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have spoken to. If Brexit is the biggest issue, why did you not read

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out to other parties and say, I have got the message, we are divided, why

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can't we have an all-party agreement? The women in pink. She

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was never passionate about Brexit. She is never going to be able to

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negotiate with any conviction. What should she do? She needs to stay for

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the continuity of the government and the country, but she will push out

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if she does not go voluntarily. And Toni-Marie Jarvis, what is your

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view? I think she should resign. I expect to two. She only called an

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election to validate herself as Prime Minister and she has ended up

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with a hung parliament, she does not have a Tory majority any more. I

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feel like that her failure. There are a number of hands up. Let's

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stick with the topic but have a different angle on it.

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How can the Conservatives align themselves with a party whose values

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She is a minority government and she has said she will do a deal with the

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DUP. Let's have a look at that. Alastair Campbell, do you want to

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emphasise the point you made before? I have a worry about this. When John

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Major was weak and he could have done a deal with the DUP he

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absolutely steadfastly for very good, principled reasons said, I am

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not doing that. He did not want to be in hock to that party. We have a

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situation in Northern Ireland at the moment where there has been a

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political crisis, where they are trying to get the administration

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back-up and where our government is the mediator with the Irish

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government between the DUP and Sinn Fein. How can our government be the

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mediator when the DUP are going to be part of our government? She is

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playing fast and loose on Brexit, with Margaret Thatcher's biggest

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achievement, the single market, and now with John Major and Tony Blair's

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greatest achievement, the peace process in Northern Ireland. She is

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putting that at risk with a sordid, disgraceful and dangerous deal.

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Chris Grayling. The first thing is I think that is completely wrong. We

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have had initial discussions with the DUP. We will see where we end

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up, but we have got today more seats in the House of commons than Labour,

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the Liberal Democrats, the SNP, the Green Party and the Welsh nationals

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put together. Only Sinn Fein and the DUP take you over the halfway line.

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We will have sensible conversations with the DUP. They are in power in

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Northern Ireland and are used to working with other parties and they

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work alongside all the other parties in the assembly. They have long

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experience of working with other parties and there is nothing unusual

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in today's Britain about that. We do not have to agree with everything

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they say. But what do you say to Alastair's point which is how can

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you broker the peace between two sides when one side is propping you

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up? You are in hock to one side. And they are the only pro-Brexit party

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in Northern Ireland. Can I read you Theresa May said in 2015 about the

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possibility of a Labour and SNP deal. I think people are genuinely

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concerned about the prospect of the SNP calling the shots in

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constitutional terms. They would be called by somebody who would not

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even be in Parliament, meaning Nicola Sturgeon. The leader of the

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DUP is not in Parliament. Game, set and match.

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APPLAUSE We are in early stages of

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discussions. What have you said so far? I am not going to comment on

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that on live television. It is not about democracy. We will not have

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that discussion here tonight. We will leave it to the Prime Minister

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and the DUP to decide how best they might work together. It would be

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incredibly unfortunate if one of the terrible prices for this absolute

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cock up by Theresa May was any kind of risk to the peaceful situation in

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Northern Ireland and all the hard work that has gone into that. But,

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and it is a big but, we are aware we are. When you go into some kind of

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agreement with another party compromises have to be made. I would

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like to see the focus on where we are today and where we are going in

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the future rather than raking over the past of the various characters

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involved. The woman there and somebody over there. Surely one of

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the issues is that it is a problem with our political system today.

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Rather than people working together on what is one of the most serious

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issues facing us, Brexit, and all the parties working together, people

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are forced into these alliances which are truly unsuitable, but they

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have no other choice. This is the whole point about

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Theresa May's approach to the referendum, to Brexit. She came out

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of the referendum, I don't agree with the lady, I think she's a

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Brexiteer who pretended to be a Remainer. She's decided to align

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herself with the 48% and the 52% can get lost and that's how she's

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pursuing the hard Brexit policy. You sir, in the blue shirt, and you come

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up there. I'm old enough to remember when it was the Conservative and

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Unionist party, so I don't understand why the DUP are being

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painted as such aliens. Aren't they just Irish Conservatives and always

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have been? That the Unionist party, who won no seats, but the DUP is

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more X-Trail. Two arguments we've heard that I want is to be aware of.

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One is to say the Conservatives have the largest number of seats and

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votes and therefore they are entitled to govern is exactly the

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argument that Nicola Sturgeon news last night in Scotland and all the

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rhetoric coming from London is that doesn't work. She lost. So you can't

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apply that argument of the Conservative Party at the same time.

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There has to be a reaching out the aren't just the Conservatives and

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the DUP to a wider consensus. I want to question the premises behind the

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question. There hasn't been a deal. That's the problem. She formed a

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government without arranging anything with the DUP, which means

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they can ask for anything and she's the one who thinks best placed to

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Brexit. It's a minority government, not even a coalition with the DUP

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where they can set out a joint store. The leader of the DUP said

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she wanted to operate and work in a way that gave us stability for the

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future and that surely is what we want. We go into the Brexit

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negotiations, we want to be able to govern properly and deliver the

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right outcome for Britain. The young man in blue there. Appoint Chris

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Grayling, surely this is supply and demand. This is not a coalition in

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any way. How can you be confident that the DUP will stay? You think

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it's a perilous deal to make in the first place. I think it will all be

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over in six months. They hold the revolver, let's be clear about that.

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They hold the revolver. Chris Grayling. We are in the earliest

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stages of the discussion so I don't think it's possible to say what the

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agreement is, we've had initial discussions. The DUP have said they

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want to help secure the stability of government and I'm grateful to them

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for saying that but we have to work through discussions about how that

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might work. Might not happen. I had a lot of dealings with the DUP

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working on the peace process. They are tough. They will drive a hard

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bargain and like the 20s and leaders in Europe they have seen they are

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not dealing with someone who is strong and stable, they are dealing

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with someone who caves and they will have her around their little finger

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and frankly they've already got her bare by the speed with which she's

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done that today. I wonder what the alternative is. I thought it was

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extraordinary to see Jeremy Corbyn saying this morning he was ready to

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lead the country. APPLAUSE

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Finish your point. He had almost 60 less seats than the Conservatives,

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so how can he possibly have the moral or numerical right to do that.

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Shami. APPLAUSE

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Quite clear on the constitutional position, which is that Theresa May

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has the most seats and she is the incumbent Prime Minister. It's for

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her to have the first attempt at forming this government, but he was

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also right as the Leader of the Opposition on the ascendance, who

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effectively won, if anybody won that election it was him. She got 200 and

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60 seats... given what he's achieved. Fine. Let Shami have her

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say. APPLAUSE

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Explain his victory. He's just right constitutionally to say if she is

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unable to form a government, it's his duty as Leader of the Opposition

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to attempt to form an alternative government and he's right in that.

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I'm sure were all very grateful but it doesn't mean anything, does it?

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you can be as sarcastic as you like... When the coalition started

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Gordon Brown was the incumbent Prime Minister, didn't have the numbers to

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form a majority and yes, there was a process of five days. They didn't

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have to wrap it up in ten minutes. What should she do? She shouldn't

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have rushed into this. What's the alternative? The alternative was to

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signal a different approach to Brexit. To have indicated that she

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could have talked to the other parties. I hope now that Shami's

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leader, that Jeremy Corbyn, will step into that space and say, we can

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start to try to put together with the other parties and understanding

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of what we're doing with Brexit. On the step of Number Ten today, she

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said what she said at the start, only I can deliver this, I've got a

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mandate, even though I've lost the majority, back to work. The woman in

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the third row. APPLAUSE

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Taking this back to the DUP, Chris just said there's nothing unusual

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about parties working together. What is unusual is that we have a party

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like the DUP, which is anti-same-sex marriage, which denies climate

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change at the forefront of British politics, and I am absolutely

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petrified at the prospect of such a coalition of chaos, I'm worried

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about the direction they'll take our country. I'm terrified about that.

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APPLAUSE Chris Grayling. Accurate description

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of the DUP? Parties work together often disagreeing significantly

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about issues that are important one or the other. Sinn Fein and the DUP

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worked side-by-side in Northern Ireland and the administration. We

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were with the Liberal Democrats for five years, we didn't always agree.

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I fundamentally disagree with the DUP about same-sex marriage but it's

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part of the way of life in England, Wales and Scotland. Not in Northern

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Ireland yet. I suspect it will be in due course. See sheds -- she said

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she wanted to govern in the national interest, which sounds slightly

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conciliatory, it it sounds like a consensus, she has a dysfunction

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between what she says and what she does. She's not going to call an

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election, she's going to call an election. She's going to speak with

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everyone, no, she will huddle with the DUP. You, with the beard, behind

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their and another question. The DUP is nonsense is usually confined to

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Ben France -- Belfast and the Northern Ireland at the thought of

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it having a global platform in a coalition is terrifying. What price

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do you think the DUP will be asking Mr Grayling and his colleagues to

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pay? They are pretty pro-Brexit, the thought of a hard border in Ireland

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gain is also pretty upsetting. They are pro-Brexit and the sake of

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frictionless border. Non-others want a hard border in Ireland. Between

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Northern Ireland and the Republican. Nor does the European Union, and I'm

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very confident we will end up with an arrangement that makes sure that

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doesn't happen. A man in pale blue, in the third row from the back. What

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does the panel think of the argument that the reason Theresa May called

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for the election to get a great majority was stopped the hard

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Brexiteers in the ranks of the Tory party from forcing... ? To give

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herself a big enough majority. We'll take a question. Jonathan Dowkes.

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Will 9th June 2017 be remembered as the day Brexit died?

:23:29.:23:33.

Wow. Armando Iannucci she -- Armando Iannucci. There's a last-minute gasp

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of Nexit resuscitation today. We didn't vote for hard Brexit. We

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voted for Brexit. I agree with that. I disagree on the campaign to have

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another referendum. It insults the 52% who voted for Brexit. But we

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didn't vote for the specifics. We didn't decide what kind of Brexit we

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wanted, what we wanted to do with our borders, all those have to be

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discussed. My beef with Theresa May is that having gone to the country

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to discuss Brexit, but then refused to do so, but talk about the beans

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with her husband on the one show instead, and therefore to keep quiet

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on the one thing she wanted to have a conversation with is about, I

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think now it's incumbent on her to open up and to say it didn't work.

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This country is not a hard Brexit supporting country and one

:24:27.:24:29.

alternative I do suggest, I'm just throwing it out there, is if we do

:24:30.:24:33.

have a negotiating table laid out with members of the main parties, we

:24:34.:24:39.

put our differences aside for two years, do the deal and have another

:24:40.:24:40.

election instead. APPLAUSE

:24:41.:24:49.

I think there's a really cynical operation under way here on the part

:24:50.:24:54.

of Remainers to try to pretend that last night's result was some kind of

:24:55.:24:59.

verdict on Brexit. Now, although Theresa May called the election

:25:00.:25:03.

ostensibly to get a greater mandate on Brexit, one of the weird things

:25:04.:25:07.

about the campaign is that Brexit was hardly talked about at all and

:25:08.:25:11.

in fact if you look at the results from last night... They wanted a

:25:12.:25:16.

blank cheque. If you look at the results from last night, some of the

:25:17.:25:21.

largest voices remain, like Nick Clegg, lost their seats. Alistair,

:25:22.:25:24.

you spent much of the campaign moaning about how no one was talking

:25:25.:25:28.

about Brexit so how can you now say that some reason this is now a

:25:29.:25:33.

verdict on Brexit? I'm not saying it was a verdict on Brexit but it was

:25:34.:25:37.

an issue. One of the most extraordinary, I don't know if it's

:25:38.:25:40.

been announced with Kensington and Chelsea, but if Labour win that

:25:41.:25:44.

don't tell me that's... Leiva have wing-macro it. A big pro-remain

:25:45.:25:51.

protest vote. -- Labour have won it. Let's come back to the point the

:25:52.:25:58.

prime ministers said she wanted stable, secure government, in order

:25:59.:26:01.

to negotiate Brexit, so Chris Grayling, she failed to get that.

:26:02.:26:06.

She's in a minority. The question Jonathan Dowkes asked, does that

:26:07.:26:10.

mean there's going to be a change in attitude towards our negotiations

:26:11.:26:14.

with the EU? There are many ways in which you and negotiate with the EU.

:26:15.:26:19.

It doesn't have to be we pull entirely out. Is it going to modify

:26:20.:26:24.

her approach? The question was during the ninth the day Brexit died

:26:25.:26:28.

and it's not at all. -- the 9th of June. You haven't got the numbers. I

:26:29.:26:35.

do not accept... APPLAUSE

:26:36.:26:40.

I don't accept the concept... Anna Soubry is back. Some of the Tories

:26:41.:26:44.

are going to help to stop a hard Brexit because they believe there is

:26:45.:26:48.

no mandate for it. Let Chris Grayling said his stall out. I do

:26:49.:26:54.

not believe in this concept of hard Brexit and soft Brexit.

:26:55.:26:57.

APPLAUSE We voted to leave the European

:26:58.:27:01.

Union. We voted in my view to have the ability to control the flow of

:27:02.:27:04.

people into the United Kingdom. We voted I believe to have good,

:27:05.:27:09.

constructive relations with our European neighbours, to have the

:27:10.:27:11.

competence of free trade agreement. All of that requires us to take the

:27:12.:27:15.

approach the Prime Minister set out. There's no magic alternative way.

:27:16.:27:18.

There's no magic way of staying in the single market and limiting the

:27:19.:27:22.

flow of people into the country. If there's one message that came loud

:27:23.:27:25.

and clear out of the referendum, people want is to have the ability

:27:26.:27:30.

to control the flow of people. What Theresa May has set out as the only

:27:31.:27:37.

realistic way to pursue a deal with the European Union that works for

:27:38.:27:40.

them and us. It's what we want to have. We want a collaborative

:27:41.:27:42.

relationship. We want to work together on Security and defence and

:27:43.:27:44.

a comprehensive free-trade agreement. That's what the

:27:45.:27:47.

overwhelming majority -- majority of people want in this country. What do

:27:48.:27:53.

you think... APPLAUSE

:27:54.:27:57.

What do you think the Labour or the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth

:27:58.:28:01.

Davidson meant, who did so well in Scotland and is so admired by the

:28:02.:28:05.

Conservative Party, when she said in the press conference yesterday, we

:28:06.:28:09.

must seek to deliver an open Brexit, not a closed Brexit. Which puts our

:28:10.:28:16.

country's economic growth first. An open Brexit, not a closed Brexit.

:28:17.:28:20.

Does that mean anything at all? I agree with that. I did not campaign

:28:21.:28:25.

to leave the European Union for this country to become a closed door,

:28:26.:28:29.

erected barricades at Dover, cut ourselves off from the world. What I

:28:30.:28:34.

want is to be as an outward facing, globally focused nation, trading

:28:35.:28:37.

with the world, but I want is outside the political structures and

:28:38.:28:40.

process of integration that is being driven in Brussels. A couple more

:28:41.:28:49.

points. The vote yesterday was a vote telling Brexit because the vote

:28:50.:28:55.

was, the hard Brexit parties got 44%. They got 52 in the last Brexit

:28:56.:29:05.

election. Yet, but, now this time they got 44%. Just so obvious that

:29:06.:29:13.

the campaign was not about Brexit. It was about the UK. Axes vote was

:29:14.:29:21.

about the UK. The whole thing and you squabbling about who wins who

:29:22.:29:25.

loses. The vote yesterday was about the UK and how we govern ourselves

:29:26.:29:33.

and it's not about, Brexit is going to ruin that. It's going to ruin all

:29:34.:29:39.

of the people. It's going to ruin this country. You, sir? I'm losing

:29:40.:29:47.

my way among the hands. The Conservative Party, even for those

:29:48.:29:50.

Remainers who are now committed to the idea, why don't you come clean

:29:51.:29:56.

with some details instead of giving cliches like Brexit means Brexit?

:29:57.:30:03.

APPLAUSE The 12 point plan that Theresa May

:30:04.:30:08.

published, nine out of them are tautological statement. All others

:30:09.:30:12.

have been waiting for months now to come up with some clarity. I was a

:30:13.:30:17.

Remainer, but now I'm committed the idea, gives some details. Do you

:30:18.:30:18.

want to close it, keep it open? Shami Chakrabarti. I think you are

:30:19.:30:31.

onto something. I think Theresa May called that snap election because

:30:32.:30:35.

she thought she would get a landslide. Why did she won a

:30:36.:30:40.

landslide? Not because she wanted to unite people and bring everyone

:30:41.:30:43.

together, but she thought it would give her a blank cheque and cushion

:30:44.:30:48.

her to ram through any kind of deal whether it was popular with the

:30:49.:30:52.

British people or not, and not share the details with us. If it went

:30:53.:30:56.

sour, she thought she would still have a bit of a cushion.

:30:57.:31:17.

That has all gone completely wrong and so yesterday and today she

:31:18.:31:21.

should have been doing as we have been saying this evening. She should

:31:22.:31:23.

have said, I called this election to get greater numbers and greatest

:31:24.:31:25.

strength. That has not happened, I have to bring more people with me. I

:31:26.:31:28.

thought Kensington and Chelsea had declared, it has not yet declared.

:31:29.:31:33.

You have gone to Lala land. I think all parties have a responsibility to

:31:34.:31:38.

reduce the risk that this country is constantly being exposed to. A

:31:39.:31:44.

referendum that we did not need, an election that we did not really

:31:45.:31:49.

need, constant risk and the risk and uncertainty the country is being

:31:50.:31:54.

exposed to. Every party now has a responsibility to get rid of that

:31:55.:31:57.

risk and getting the country back on the road. By doing what? That is my

:31:58.:32:06.

question, what are they going to do? Last night the vast majority of

:32:07.:32:11.

people who voted voted for parties that said we want to leave the

:32:12.:32:16.

European Union. Both the Tory and the Labour manifesto pledge to leave

:32:17.:32:21.

the EU, so let's not rewrite that. The Labour manifesto said it wanted

:32:22.:32:33.

an end to pre-movement. But she said this election was about Brexit and

:32:34.:32:39.

she did not discuss it. She said every single vote was in my hand

:32:40.:32:45.

these negotiations. She has now lost the authority to negotiate. Brexit

:32:46.:32:53.

was discussed with the leader of the campaign and the reason she called

:32:54.:32:56.

the election was she found herself in the position of being accused of

:32:57.:33:03.

not having a personal mandate as Prime Minister. Can we follow the

:33:04.:33:12.

logic of this? If she went to the country looking for an endorsement

:33:13.:33:15.

on her views on Brexit and she lost her majority, surely she has lost

:33:16.:33:20.

the endorsement of the country for her views on Brexit? She is the

:33:21.:33:28.

Prime Minister with the largest block of members in the House of

:33:29.:33:34.

Commons with 43% of the vote in a Parliament that voted overwhelmingly

:33:35.:33:40.

for Brexit. She said, if I lose six seats, Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime

:33:41.:33:44.

Minister. Well he isn't, so get over it. We have got other things to talk

:33:45.:33:48.

about it. The details of how to

:33:49.:33:52.

apply are on the screen. Let's take another question and put

:33:53.:34:00.

the boot on another foot, James Why are Labour happy

:34:01.:34:13.

about losing another election? Good question. We are clearly not

:34:14.:34:30.

happy about losing another election, but people in this country have

:34:31.:34:40.

shown an appetite for change. I personally think there is something

:34:41.:34:43.

quite extraordinary that has happened over the past seven weeks

:34:44.:34:48.

when you had all the commentary and Theresa May and her colleagues

:34:49.:34:52.

completely dismissing Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, the whole

:34:53.:34:57.

party, it was all a joke, it was going to be a complete disaster, we

:34:58.:35:02.

would be annihilated. Look what happened. We got some fair coverage

:35:03.:35:08.

in the broadcast media. There was even a certain David Dimbleby who

:35:09.:35:11.

said in the campaign there had not been fair treatment of the Labour

:35:12.:35:17.

leadership in the media. You get a British electorate campaign which is

:35:18.:35:22.

something to be proud of. But you lost. Of course we did. Isabel

:35:23.:35:30.

thinks I am running away from the reality. Of course we lost, but we

:35:31.:35:35.

made some games and we ran a positive campaign and we did as well

:35:36.:35:39.

as we did because we were not attacking people and calling their

:35:40.:35:42.

character into question and calling them names. We ran a positive

:35:43.:35:49.

campaign with an incredibly popular manifesto. Yes, it was about the NHS

:35:50.:35:55.

and getting rid of tuition fees and treating the elderly well. Our

:35:56.:35:58.

manifesto was popular and theirs was not. You, sir. Not only did you lose

:35:59.:36:09.

this election, but what has happened is Labour has made the situation

:36:10.:36:15.

into uncertainty and confusion. Because we did too well? What

:36:16.:36:21.

happened is nobody believed you were going to win, but you stole the

:36:22.:36:27.

votes and it is a complete mess now. Alastair Campbell. A proper English

:36:28.:36:38.

centres, it is like a dog in a manger. Do not win and do not let

:36:39.:36:52.

anybody else when and that is what Jeremy Corbyn is doing. That is a

:36:53.:36:53.

very strange view of democracy. Kensington and Chelsea has now been

:36:54.:36:54.

declared and Labour has taken that seat.

:36:55.:36:57.

CHEERING Alastair Campbell.

:36:58.:37:03.

We have a balanced audience. Let's hear from those who think that is an

:37:04.:37:07.

error. That is the spirit, thank you. I work with the government in

:37:08.:37:19.

the Socialist party in Albania which has a general election on. Somebody

:37:20.:37:23.

in the party set me a message today, they were watching our election on

:37:24.:37:28.

television, and they said why are the winners looking like losers and

:37:29.:37:32.

the losers looking like winners? It echoes what you are saying. The

:37:33.:37:38.

answer is about expectations. Theresa May called this election,

:37:39.:37:41.

utterly convinced she was going to get a landslide and she has not.

:37:42.:37:45.

Jeremy Corbyn went into this election with a lot of critics,

:37:46.:37:51.

myself included, and your former paper, the Daily Mail pouring more

:37:52.:37:56.

dirt on him than we had. I was literally counting the minutes until

:37:57.:37:59.

you were going to have to go at that paper. It is so boring. It is a

:38:00.:38:07.

really poisonous paper, that is why. CHEERING

:38:08.:38:17.

And what is more, Alastair, they buy it.

:38:18.:38:21.

They may buy it, but if that is all you care about, that is fine. I have

:38:22.:38:27.

had a lot of criticism in my time and I still have doubts about the

:38:28.:38:30.

way the Labour Party is going, we still have to build a coalition to

:38:31.:38:34.

get back into power and I am never happy when Labour lose and I want

:38:35.:38:39.

Labour back in power. What is it you want to do to change? It seems that

:38:40.:38:45.

people like you in the Labour Party I thinking huge spending, get rid of

:38:46.:38:50.

the deficit, give the students free tuition. You cannot afford it, it is

:38:51.:38:55.

Labour giving presents to the voters. What do you want them to do?

:38:56.:39:01.

Do you want Jeremy Corbyn to stay? He ran a very good campaign and he

:39:02.:39:06.

showed whereas Theresa May cannot campaign, he can campaign and he has

:39:07.:39:14.

strengthened his position. So you will just keep on campaigning? The

:39:15.:39:20.

whole Blair and Brown era, people still focus on it, but I want the

:39:21.:39:26.

Labour Party to get back where we are an opposition that understands

:39:27.:39:29.

the challenges facing the country and understands that nobody ever

:39:30.:39:34.

wins from a section of the electorate, you have to go abroad

:39:35.:39:38.

and white. The other thing I would like to see Jeremy Corbyn do is now,

:39:39.:39:45.

and this idea that he was not remotely prime ministerial, I think

:39:46.:39:49.

he can step up on the question of Brexit by doing what Theresa May is

:39:50.:39:54.

refusing to do, and that is to start to reach out and talk to other

:39:55.:39:58.

parties. I wish we could get over this old Tony Blair and the factions

:39:59.:40:02.

and the rest of it and start cementing the Labour Party. You wish

:40:03.:40:07.

that, but you have been stirring it up all these years. Since the second

:40:08.:40:13.

leadership election most of the critics have shut up and got on with

:40:14.:40:18.

it. What has been shown is Jeremy Corbyn has been able to energise

:40:19.:40:23.

people. But it was quite a small swing and there is a lot more to do

:40:24.:40:27.

to get the Labour Party back as a party of government with a credible

:40:28.:40:30.

government that these people would vote for. Chris Grayling. Would you

:40:31.:40:37.

and Tony Blair have been comfortable proposing to the country this

:40:38.:40:40.

manifesto with all the economics behind it and all the issues about

:40:41.:40:45.

borrowing and the extra cost on taxation? Would you be comfortable

:40:46.:40:49.

with a huge increase in corporate taxes just at the moment we are

:40:50.:40:52.

leaving the European Union and we want to attract more business? I

:40:53.:41:03.

voted for it. I voted for it and I know Tony Blair voted for it. Would

:41:04.:41:08.

we have done that in 2001-2005? I suspect we would not have done it.

:41:09.:41:14.

But I suspect the Labour Party is onto something at the moment. And

:41:15.:41:20.

this is the big thing, people are sick of austerity and being told

:41:21.:41:25.

there is no other way. The man in the fifth row. Fire away. I think

:41:26.:41:32.

the only reason that Labour did so well was because Jeremy Corbyn was

:41:33.:41:38.

offering the Earth, the world, which he could not cost. Every time they

:41:39.:41:44.

were asked they did not have an answer. Jeremy Corbyn and Diane

:41:45.:41:49.

Abbott could not answer when they were asked questions about costing.

:41:50.:41:57.

That is why he did well? The voters are gullible, they do not respect

:41:58.:42:05.

those who vote for them. He could not afford it. But we can afford it.

:42:06.:42:14.

Armando Iannucci. What politicians do in the next 24 hours is crucial.

:42:15.:42:19.

I hope Jeremy Corbyn does not fall back into his default that what he

:42:20.:42:24.

has is a protest movement and he had a fantastic rally and it would be

:42:25.:42:28.

great if we did another one next Saturday and let's keep going. I

:42:29.:42:33.

would like to see him acting as Leader of the Opposition and

:42:34.:42:41.

opposing. That means taking his talent in parliament and his MPs and

:42:42.:42:48.

reaching out to those and others like Chuka Umunna and Yvette Cooper.

:42:49.:42:56.

It also means reaching out to other parties. If you look at it, Labour

:42:57.:43:00.

put their heart and soul into this election and they got a tremendous

:43:01.:43:04.

amount of new voters and we still did not do it. That is because the

:43:05.:43:10.

system is broken. We have had a tiny minority governments for the last

:43:11.:43:14.

three elections and we have never had a sizeable majority for the last

:43:15.:43:18.

15 years and the Tories have not had one for the last 30 years. It means

:43:19.:43:22.

parties will have to speak to each other. Where Jeremy Corbyn did

:43:23.:43:28.

resonate with voters is in authenticity. One of the problems

:43:29.:43:32.

with Theresa May's campaign issue came across as very robotic. If you

:43:33.:43:38.

behave like a robot when the voters are going to vote for a clown

:43:39.:43:43.

instead, and let's be honest... BOOING

:43:44.:43:50.

Jeremy Corbyn failed last night and we should not get carried away and a

:43:51.:43:56.

lot of Tories will be happy if he stays on for the next five years

:43:57.:44:00.

because he will fail again because he is not electable.

:44:01.:44:06.

The gentleman there. Just a minute ago members of the panel were very

:44:07.:44:10.

disrespectful to the people of Northern Ireland when you are

:44:11.:44:15.

slagging off the DUP. The DUP represent those people, so now I am

:44:16.:44:19.

going to slag off all the people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. There have

:44:20.:44:26.

not been any cuts. Every year public expenditure is going up ten or 20

:44:27.:44:31.

billion. There has not been any austerity. The government spends an

:44:32.:44:37.

enormous amount. It goes up every year. Jeremy Corbyn is a very angry,

:44:38.:44:52.

misguided person who does not believe it. David Cameron was

:44:53.:44:55.

reassuringly dishonest. Chris Grayling, I really reassuringly

:44:56.:45:04.

dishonest character, David Cameron. 20 billion a year, the government

:45:05.:45:09.

expenditure goes up. It is the case if you take the example of the NHS,

:45:10.:45:13.

we increase the budget every year and we always have in government and

:45:14.:45:19.

we always will. The Conservative Party has been in power the majority

:45:20.:45:23.

of time the NHS has been in existence and we have looked after

:45:24.:45:27.

it and funded it. We put more money into it every year.

:45:28.:45:32.

I think there's a considerable amount of difference between someone

:45:33.:45:37.

that's good at campaigning and someone that can actually form a

:45:38.:45:41.

government and lead the country. At softer Jeremy Corbyn. He's a nice

:45:42.:45:47.

guy. He's a good campaign. -- hats off to Jeremy Corbyn. He's more

:45:48.:45:53.

sincere than Theresa May. But when it comes to who is going to leave

:45:54.:45:56.

the country and managed the Brexit negotiations, I think it puts a lot

:45:57.:46:01.

more into context. I don't think, I can't see Labour going into

:46:02.:46:05.

government with him as leader. Is it better to put in charge of Brexit

:46:06.:46:08.

negotiations someone like Theresa May, who does a deal with the DUP

:46:09.:46:13.

without actually knowing what it is? You have to remember she's still got

:46:14.:46:18.

the largest party in government. Her majority is reduced but she's

:46:19.:46:20.

increased temperature against Jeremy Corbyn. She reduced the number of

:46:21.:46:25.

seats but she still got the majority and with the DUP. Am not arguing

:46:26.:46:31.

with the maths. I was arguing with her competence.

:46:32.:46:32.

APPLAUSE The woman in the front. Do you think

:46:33.:46:37.

if there had been left anti-Semitism in the Labour Party from people like

:46:38.:46:46.

Corbyn and perhaps you, Baroness Chakravarty, then Corbyn would be in

:46:47.:46:52.

power? In government? Do you want to answer that? I said everything I

:46:53.:46:57.

have to say about that. There have been problems of racism and

:46:58.:47:00.

anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in Britain, in the parties as

:47:01.:47:06.

well, but I don't really, I don't think I can attribute the election

:47:07.:47:10.

result to those issues. I really don't. You might, but I really

:47:11.:47:16.

don't. Just to answer. There were a lot of conflicted people who judged

:47:17.:47:19.

people who were unsure because of this. I'm sad to hear that but I

:47:20.:47:23.

think were able to move forward together now. I made some

:47:24.:47:27.

recommendations about how people ought to treat each other and I feel

:47:28.:47:30.

that an appetite for taking this forward. The gentleman who said

:47:31.:47:35.

Jeremy Corbyn is a great guy and he's decent and authentic, he's a

:47:36.:47:40.

campaigner, but he's not a leader. I'd ask you to question what you

:47:41.:47:43.

think leadership is, if it isn't about values and it isn't about

:47:44.:47:45.

authenticity. APPLAUSE

:47:46.:47:53.

It's certainly not attending a vigil for IRA terrorists and bombers that

:47:54.:47:56.

attack innocent people for their own political gain. You have to be able

:47:57.:48:01.

to lead your own Parliamentary party. Has your party provided

:48:02.:48:05.

high-quality opposition in last year, Shami? That's a no.

:48:06.:48:12.

APPLAUSE I've got to respond to that. You

:48:13.:48:16.

make a point about divided political parties and how they are not going

:48:17.:48:21.

to be effective, either in government or opposition, that's

:48:22.:48:24.

clear, but during this campaign is another thing that has gone really

:48:25.:48:27.

well for us has been the unity of the party. I look forward to seeing

:48:28.:48:36.

how that plays out,. So do I, obviously. I agree with Isabel

:48:37.:48:41.

Oakeshott, Jeremy Corbyn had the best chance yesterday to take

:48:42.:48:45.

advantage of Theresa May's weaknesses, a poor campaign, and he

:48:46.:48:49.

blew it, he failed. APPLAUSE

:48:50.:48:54.

. You, sir? You talk about credibility of leadership. How can

:48:55.:48:58.

he have any credibility with reference to Theresa May to really

:48:59.:49:03.

think that she can debate, negotiate and extemporised with EU ministers

:49:04.:49:07.

and leaders, when she completely avoided the debating platform in the

:49:08.:49:11.

campaign? What kind of leadership does not show?

:49:12.:49:17.

APPLAUSE Let's, turn, we'll turn to one of

:49:18.:49:23.

the issues in the campaign that did cause a lot of debate. Angela

:49:24.:49:24.

Piercy. Does the election result spell

:49:25.:49:31.

the end of the "dementia tax"? You remember the dementia tax, she

:49:32.:49:39.

said she hadn't changed her views and that's a matter of debate, I

:49:40.:49:44.

suppose. Do you want to start on that, Isabel? This is such an

:49:45.:49:48.

important issue. It was really disappointing that the Conservative

:49:49.:49:51.

manifesto came out with such a botched approach to it. I think it's

:49:52.:49:56.

far too important for party politics. I know it's been tried

:49:57.:50:00.

before, but I think that we owe it to ourselves to have some kind of

:50:01.:50:03.

cross-party talks, some kind of commission, where we really get to

:50:04.:50:08.

grips with this problem. It's going to be expensive but it's too

:50:09.:50:12.

important for things to be labelled dementia tax or death tax. OK. Chris

:50:13.:50:19.

Grayling. The irony is there was no such thing as dementia tax and in

:50:20.:50:23.

fact the package compares quite favourably with the situation. Most

:50:24.:50:27.

people didn't understand, don't understand, the situation today is

:50:28.:50:30.

if you go into residential care and you have no other financial means,

:50:31.:50:34.

your house has to be sold there and then and the money is spent down to

:50:35.:50:38.

the last ?23,000. That's the situation today. It's been the case

:50:39.:50:43.

for ten, 20, 30 years in this country. What was brought forward in

:50:44.:50:46.

the Conservative manifesto actually took less from people than the

:50:47.:50:50.

current system. But we've got to learn lessons around how that came

:50:51.:50:54.

across, about how it was launched, the communication of it. We need to

:50:55.:50:57.

do what we promised to do in the campaign, which is to issue a Green

:50:58.:51:01.

paper, have a proper public consultation about the best way

:51:02.:51:06.

forward on this. This is one of the great defining issues of our time.

:51:07.:51:09.

We have to find the best way of solving it. It means difficult

:51:10.:51:11.

decisions. I'm pretty sure Theresa May in the campaign and going

:51:12.:51:15.

forward wanted to be honest with the public and say look, this is a huge

:51:16.:51:19.

challenge, it's going to cost is collectively and individually and we

:51:20.:51:24.

have to address it. Why didn't she explain it then? Why didn't she go

:51:25.:51:30.

on television and debate the pros and cons? I agree, I was on the

:51:31.:51:36.

daily politics with Andrew Neil and someone from the Institute for

:51:37.:51:39.

Fiscal Studies the day the Tory manifesto came out on these two

:51:40.:51:43.

great big brains between them couldn't work out whether this was a

:51:44.:51:47.

good thing, a bad thing, or an easy thing to explain are difficult thing

:51:48.:51:50.

to explain, and if they couldn't do it I'm sure most of us couldn't do

:51:51.:51:55.

it. That was a problem. She had three or four weeks in which to

:51:56.:51:58.

explain it and take it on and to engage with you about it, find out

:51:59.:52:01.

what the issues and problems were, and she ignored that. You, sir. I'm

:52:02.:52:08.

more worried about the risk of basically how many more weeks will

:52:09.:52:14.

it take for the wheels to come off whatever agreement they are going to

:52:15.:52:16.

make and we're going to be sitting here again, discussing the same

:52:17.:52:20.

issues and going to the polls again? I'd to know what the panel thinks

:52:21.:52:24.

about how many weeks do you think that will take to happen? What do

:52:25.:52:29.

you call the wheels coming off? I don't know what agreement they've

:52:30.:52:31.

done together but obviously when you've got two parties, they'll

:52:32.:52:38.

disagree, the wheels will come off, something will happen. It was the

:52:39.:52:42.

social care policy that actually made the wheels come off the

:52:43.:52:46.

campaign, because I think it was one thing for Theresa May to say I want

:52:47.:52:49.

a blank check for Brexit, which is why I'm having this election, but

:52:50.:52:52.

what that did was make people think Hang on a minute she wants a blank

:52:53.:52:58.

check for everything. One of the things, you know this, the one thing

:52:59.:53:01.

you've got to do in a campaign, we're back to the question of

:53:02.:53:04.

confidence. It was so badly handled. The first you guys knew about it was

:53:05.:53:07.

when you read it in the manifesto. It was done by her mate, two mates

:53:08.:53:12.

behind the stage who you are trying to get rid of, Timothy and Fiona

:53:13.:53:16.

Hill, they put it in there, than it was launched on an unsuspecting

:53:17.:53:20.

world and within a couple of days she had junked it and don't think

:53:21.:53:24.

Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron didn't see how quickly she jumped it

:53:25.:53:28.

and it was utterly incompetent. When as Isabel says, this is a really

:53:29.:53:31.

important issue where we do actually have to have a proper debate about

:53:32.:53:36.

it. With respect, that's quite right coming from somebody in a party who

:53:37.:53:39.

brought as the extraordinary experience of Diane Abbott and

:53:40.:53:44.

police costs, of Jeremy Corbyn costing his policies, so looking at

:53:45.:53:48.

how badly they handled their ability to explain that. The leader of a

:53:49.:53:55.

party launching a manifesto. You can't spin your way out of that one.

:53:56.:54:00.

Even you can't! Shami Chakrabarti. This isn't just about spin all about

:54:01.:54:08.

confidence, it's about a policy that has terrified a lot of older people

:54:09.:54:11.

on the doorstep that I've personally spoken to and it's a strange policy

:54:12.:54:15.

from the Conservatives, who are supposed up a support home owning

:54:16.:54:19.

and supposed to support that you leave your home to your children.

:54:20.:54:23.

People have been genuinely terrified and said, I don't want to go into

:54:24.:54:26.

social care. Everyone is right that we've got a big problem with an

:54:27.:54:30.

ageing population and we need to take care of them with dignity but

:54:31.:54:33.

it's got to be a fair tax for everybody, not just taking the tax

:54:34.:54:37.

from the people who are suffering and have to go into social care.

:54:38.:54:41.

We've got time for one last question, just. And Edo, please. --

:54:42.:54:46.

Daniel be done. Now that Jeremy Corbyn did much

:54:47.:54:49.

better than expected, is it fair to say the media's power

:54:50.:54:52.

over politics is over? The media being... Newspapers, like

:54:53.:55:05.

the Sun and the Daily Mail. The BBC? The sun and Daily Mail in particular

:55:06.:55:09.

are mean if you like towards Jeremy Corbyn and I think it's been shown

:55:10.:55:15.

in the election yesterday. Armando Iannucci. We've felt for some time

:55:16.:55:19.

that the way the newspapers have treated anyone on the left has been

:55:20.:55:26.

sort of fiction. It's their own story that they sell. I think most

:55:27.:55:29.

people know that it's their story. It's a fiction. Was accounted by

:55:30.:55:35.

social media in this election? It was. It will take awhile to find out

:55:36.:55:39.

how much but I think it was. The other parties will catch up on that

:55:40.:55:43.

as well. The Conservatives and the Leave campaign in the referendum

:55:44.:55:46.

last year had a massive social media, a sinister one in terms of

:55:47.:55:50.

collecting data, and what it does is raise the whole issue of the

:55:51.:55:55.

influence, Facebook and Google and those outlets have, that they are no

:55:56.:55:58.

longer just distributors of information, they are publishers,

:55:59.:56:03.

and they need to be regarded as publishers. They publish stories for

:56:04.:56:06.

profit. That's how they work. That raises that question. I want --

:56:07.:56:12.

Isabel Oakeshott. I want to get in here before the usual rant about the

:56:13.:56:15.

Daily Mail. It's a legitimate question and it's difficult to gauge

:56:16.:56:20.

because when I saw the Sun the Meyler combined front pages

:56:21.:56:23.

yesterday I thought it might make a significant difference and clearly

:56:24.:56:29.

it did not -- that Mail front pages. What did they say? They were pretty

:56:30.:56:34.

robust in their hostility. We found that Jeremy Corbyn was portrayed as

:56:35.:56:44.

a dustbin and we were advised to bin Corbyn and don't let him put Britain

:56:45.:56:48.

in the bin. You can't have it both ways, it's difficult to judge. Chris

:56:49.:56:53.

Grayling? The lesson for politicians is we can't decide how we

:56:54.:56:56.

communicate to people, we have to look at how they receive their

:56:57.:56:59.

information and a lot of work to do in the future on improving what we

:57:00.:57:03.

do with social media. I think Armando makes an important point,

:57:04.:57:07.

that actually, we also have to be sure what's being put on social

:57:08.:57:10.

media is accurate. We want a democracy that tells the truth and a

:57:11.:57:18.

lot of the time... The Daily Mail. Where you accurate, Alistair? You've

:57:19.:57:24.

got a minute. Let's not spend it all Daily Mail. Briefly, Shami. It's

:57:25.:57:28.

about being accurate, it's about being fair and giving people a fair

:57:29.:57:33.

shout and a fair hearing and it's also about nastiness and I think

:57:34.:57:37.

there was a moment perhaps in this campaign where some of these attacks

:57:38.:57:46.

went a bit too far. On social media. APPLAUSE

:57:47.:57:50.

It's possible that Mail in particular was so over the top that

:57:51.:57:53.

in the last few days it actually helped the Labour Party because the

:57:54.:57:56.

public are seen through it and I do urge you all, thank you for the

:57:57.:58:01.

encouragement to do this, Isabel, I urge you all, if you want to help

:58:02.:58:05.

democracy, stop buying the Daily Mail.

:58:06.:58:12.

APPLAUSE OK. I don't know why we have to go

:58:13.:58:15.

on about the Daily Mail the time. Next Thursday, Question

:58:16.:58:19.

Time is in Coventry. If you'd like to come

:58:20.:58:24.

along, go to our website Thank you to the panel and to all of

:58:25.:58:35.

you who came here. Until Question Time on Thursday, good night.

:58:36.:59:02.

I've had enough... ..alternative facts.

:59:03.:59:08.

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