09/06/2017 Question Time


David Dimbleby presents topical debate from London.

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On our panel, the man who ran Theresa May's campaign


for the Tory leadership, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.


Labour's Shadow Attorney General, Shami Chakrabarti.


The author and former political editor of the Sunday Times


The comedy writer who created the TV series The Thick


And the man often thought to have inspired the belligerent spin


doctor, Malcolm Tucker, Tony Blair's former spokesman,


Thank you very much, good to see you all here.


Join in at home using Twitter and Facebook.


Or text 83981 and push the red button to see


Our first question comes from Toni-Marie Jarvis.


Last night showed Theresa May has no mandate, should she resign?


Alastair Campbell. She has a mandate in she has been to see the Queen and


the Queen has agreed she should form a government and she has decided to


form a government propped up by the DUP in Northern Ireland. I would


ask, does she has any authority? I would say she has lost authority by


taking an enormous gamble, for entirely party and selfish


interests, and putting the country into possibly a period of mere


chaos. Also I am really worried about the deal that she has done to


stay in power, because the DUP are a party in Northern Ireland that did


very well in the election, but one of the most important things that is


at some risk at the moment because of the chaos and confusion in our


politics is the Northern Ireland peace process and the Good Friday


Agreement. She has gone into bed with a party from which previous


governments, including the government led by John Major, have


always stayed neutral. I am not going to stop you, we will be coming


to that. Should she resign? She does not have to resign, she can govern,


but I do not think she will be able to govern for a long and because she


has fundamentally weakened herself in the eyes of the public and the


party, and also at a time we are going into the most important


negotiations of any Prime Minister since the Second World War she is


losing authority in the eyes of those she will have to negotiate


with. I think she is bust and flash. Chris Grayling. No, she should not


resign. You have to remember first of all we want the most seats. She


won the largest vote share that a Conservative Prime Minister has won


in a generation. She won more votes than Tony Blair did in 1997. What


has happened is the votes have fallen in a different way and we


have ended with a narrow result. I am disappointed we did not do


better, but she commands more members of Parliament today than all


of the other parties except the DUP and Sinn Fein together. Not only


must she not resign, we need to move forward and we need to go into the


Brexit negotiations and we have to deliver the right outcome for


Britain and as the person who commands the largest bloc in


parliament it is right she should stay. She should stay for the entire


duration of the Parliament? Will she fight the next election? That is a


question for her, but my view is she says Prime Minister for the


foreseeable future. You supported her as leader of the party, so you


must have a view as to having lost a majority, having gambled on the


election, she should now fight the next election for the Tories, or is


it just an interim Prime Minister? I am talking about somebody who


commands the biggest bloc in parliament as we start the most


important negotiations in a generation. The last thing anybody


should be doing is should she be here and discussing should she be


here for the next few months or whatever. Why should it not be


discussed? We need to get on with it and deliver a stable outcome for


Great Britain. Shami Chakrabarti. It was extraordinary arrogance and


having promised people there would be no snap election to call the


election, presumably because she had made a calculation, no doubt on


advice that she would get a landslide. She took it for granted.


I found the way that she conducted her campaign to people for granted


as well, including not doing debates, including the very negative


campaigning which we have come to associate with Mr Crosby who ran a


really nasty smear campaign. Should she go? You are describing a


campaign that has been very much described. Should she go? Other


senior Conservatives like Anna Soubry have been saying she should


consider her position. She should say that because she lost her seat.


This is an absolute disaster. It is a disaster, but it is not a question


of whether she should resign, she actually cannot resign. You have to


think through the mechanics of what would happen now if there was a Tory


contest. There is not a coronation, there is nobody waiting in the wings


to be an amazing leader, we are stuck with her. We cannot afford


weeks of the Tories having a conversation about who they want


while the clock ticks on the Brexit negotiations. It is not very


inspiring leadership. I hear what you say. We are where we are. Anna


Soubry did not lose her seat. She has many colleagues who lost her


seat. You, sir. She is clearly incompetent and there are U-turns at


every opportunity and I would much rather have a leader who knew what


they were doing and was consistent with the public. The man at the


back. The election campaign was about Brexit. When will we move on


to Brexit instead of talking about the new leadership campaign? Let's


get on and move on and get Brexit out of the way. You think this


election was about Brexit? Yes. What was the evidence for that? It was a


strong and stable government and she wanted a majority. But she did not


get it. She said was that she needed more votes and more seeds as if 27


other countries would be more frightened of her because she had


more seats. That not happen. I agree she should not resign today. That


will happen in such good time now. But it is what she did today given


the position she is in. In a crisis you find that the metal of someone.


Today she was tone deaf to what happened last night. The votes were


split across the country, the parties were split across the


country and the mood in the country, especially with all of those


participating for the first time, we want some consensus and reaching out


to the other parties. What she has done is retreat to my default


position and only huddle in with those she thinks will agree with


her. She has gone for hard Brexit and the company said no. That has


confused us and frighten us and we did not talk about hard Brexit. We


want a further discussion. She has gone into number ten with those who


will support hard Brexit. It is completely tone deaf to what is


going on in the country. Chris Grayling? Tone deaf? I do not think


so. But we have to learn lessons, we did not do as well as we hoped. Also


a lot of members on Parliament on both sides lost their seats last


night, a huge shame for them, a huge disappointment because we lost many


valuable colleagues. We must learn lessons. What lessons must you


learn? We need to look back at the campaign and the messages and think


about how we make sure in the future we do better than last night. Can


you pick out any particular element in the campaign that needs to be


investigated? Where do you start? We have to get on with the Brexit


negotiations and deliver the right result. Why did you not learned the


lesson of what the DUP did in the last few years, which is go into


partnership with the Sinn Fein. There are other parties she could


have spoken to. If Brexit is the biggest issue, why did you not read


out to other parties and say, I have got the message, we are divided, why


can't we have an all-party agreement? The women in pink. She


was never passionate about Brexit. She is never going to be able to


negotiate with any conviction. What should she do? She needs to stay for


the continuity of the government and the country, but she will push out


if she does not go voluntarily. And Toni-Marie Jarvis, what is your


view? I think she should resign. I expect to two. She only called an


election to validate herself as Prime Minister and she has ended up


with a hung parliament, she does not have a Tory majority any more. I


feel like that her failure. There are a number of hands up. Let's


stick with the topic but have a different angle on it.


How can the Conservatives align themselves with a party whose values


She is a minority government and she has said she will do a deal with the


DUP. Let's have a look at that. Alastair Campbell, do you want to


emphasise the point you made before? I have a worry about this. When John


Major was weak and he could have done a deal with the DUP he


absolutely steadfastly for very good, principled reasons said, I am


not doing that. He did not want to be in hock to that party. We have a


situation in Northern Ireland at the moment where there has been a


political crisis, where they are trying to get the administration


back-up and where our government is the mediator with the Irish


government between the DUP and Sinn Fein. How can our government be the


mediator when the DUP are going to be part of our government? She is


playing fast and loose on Brexit, with Margaret Thatcher's biggest


achievement, the single market, and now with John Major and Tony Blair's


greatest achievement, the peace process in Northern Ireland. She is


putting that at risk with a sordid, disgraceful and dangerous deal.


Chris Grayling. The first thing is I think that is completely wrong. We


have had initial discussions with the DUP. We will see where we end


up, but we have got today more seats in the House of commons than Labour,


the Liberal Democrats, the SNP, the Green Party and the Welsh nationals


put together. Only Sinn Fein and the DUP take you over the halfway line.


We will have sensible conversations with the DUP. They are in power in


Northern Ireland and are used to working with other parties and they


work alongside all the other parties in the assembly. They have long


experience of working with other parties and there is nothing unusual


in today's Britain about that. We do not have to agree with everything


they say. But what do you say to Alastair's point which is how can


you broker the peace between two sides when one side is propping you


up? You are in hock to one side. And they are the only pro-Brexit party


in Northern Ireland. Can I read you Theresa May said in 2015 about the


possibility of a Labour and SNP deal. I think people are genuinely


concerned about the prospect of the SNP calling the shots in


constitutional terms. They would be called by somebody who would not


even be in Parliament, meaning Nicola Sturgeon. The leader of the


DUP is not in Parliament. Game, set and match.


APPLAUSE We are in early stages of


discussions. What have you said so far? I am not going to comment on


that on live television. It is not about democracy. We will not have


that discussion here tonight. We will leave it to the Prime Minister


and the DUP to decide how best they might work together. It would be


incredibly unfortunate if one of the terrible prices for this absolute


cock up by Theresa May was any kind of risk to the peaceful situation in


Northern Ireland and all the hard work that has gone into that. But,


and it is a big but, we are aware we are. When you go into some kind of


agreement with another party compromises have to be made. I would


like to see the focus on where we are today and where we are going in


the future rather than raking over the past of the various characters


involved. The woman there and somebody over there. Surely one of


the issues is that it is a problem with our political system today.


Rather than people working together on what is one of the most serious


issues facing us, Brexit, and all the parties working together, people


are forced into these alliances which are truly unsuitable, but they


have no other choice. This is the whole point about


Theresa May's approach to the referendum, to Brexit. She came out


of the referendum, I don't agree with the lady, I think she's a


Brexiteer who pretended to be a Remainer. She's decided to align


herself with the 48% and the 52% can get lost and that's how she's


pursuing the hard Brexit policy. You sir, in the blue shirt, and you come


up there. I'm old enough to remember when it was the Conservative and


Unionist party, so I don't understand why the DUP are being


painted as such aliens. Aren't they just Irish Conservatives and always


have been? That the Unionist party, who won no seats, but the DUP is


more X-Trail. Two arguments we've heard that I want is to be aware of.


One is to say the Conservatives have the largest number of seats and


votes and therefore they are entitled to govern is exactly the


argument that Nicola Sturgeon news last night in Scotland and all the


rhetoric coming from London is that doesn't work. She lost. So you can't


apply that argument of the Conservative Party at the same time.


There has to be a reaching out the aren't just the Conservatives and


the DUP to a wider consensus. I want to question the premises behind the


question. There hasn't been a deal. That's the problem. She formed a


government without arranging anything with the DUP, which means


they can ask for anything and she's the one who thinks best placed to


Brexit. It's a minority government, not even a coalition with the DUP


where they can set out a joint store. The leader of the DUP said


she wanted to operate and work in a way that gave us stability for the


future and that surely is what we want. We go into the Brexit


negotiations, we want to be able to govern properly and deliver the


right outcome for Britain. The young man in blue there. Appoint Chris


Grayling, surely this is supply and demand. This is not a coalition in


any way. How can you be confident that the DUP will stay? You think


it's a perilous deal to make in the first place. I think it will all be


over in six months. They hold the revolver, let's be clear about that.


They hold the revolver. Chris Grayling. We are in the earliest


stages of the discussion so I don't think it's possible to say what the


agreement is, we've had initial discussions. The DUP have said they


want to help secure the stability of government and I'm grateful to them


for saying that but we have to work through discussions about how that


might work. Might not happen. I had a lot of dealings with the DUP


working on the peace process. They are tough. They will drive a hard


bargain and like the 20s and leaders in Europe they have seen they are


not dealing with someone who is strong and stable, they are dealing


with someone who caves and they will have her around their little finger


and frankly they've already got her bare by the speed with which she's


done that today. I wonder what the alternative is. I thought it was


extraordinary to see Jeremy Corbyn saying this morning he was ready to


lead the country. APPLAUSE


Finish your point. He had almost 60 less seats than the Conservatives,


so how can he possibly have the moral or numerical right to do that.




Quite clear on the constitutional position, which is that Theresa May


has the most seats and she is the incumbent Prime Minister. It's for


her to have the first attempt at forming this government, but he was


also right as the Leader of the Opposition on the ascendance, who


effectively won, if anybody won that election it was him. She got 200 and


60 seats... given what he's achieved. Fine. Let Shami have her




Explain his victory. He's just right constitutionally to say if she is


unable to form a government, it's his duty as Leader of the Opposition


to attempt to form an alternative government and he's right in that.


I'm sure were all very grateful but it doesn't mean anything, does it?


you can be as sarcastic as you like... When the coalition started


Gordon Brown was the incumbent Prime Minister, didn't have the numbers to


form a majority and yes, there was a process of five days. They didn't


have to wrap it up in ten minutes. What should she do? She shouldn't


have rushed into this. What's the alternative? The alternative was to


signal a different approach to Brexit. To have indicated that she


could have talked to the other parties. I hope now that Shami's


leader, that Jeremy Corbyn, will step into that space and say, we can


start to try to put together with the other parties and understanding


of what we're doing with Brexit. On the step of Number Ten today, she


said what she said at the start, only I can deliver this, I've got a


mandate, even though I've lost the majority, back to work. The woman in


the third row. APPLAUSE


Taking this back to the DUP, Chris just said there's nothing unusual


about parties working together. What is unusual is that we have a party


like the DUP, which is anti-same-sex marriage, which denies climate


change at the forefront of British politics, and I am absolutely


petrified at the prospect of such a coalition of chaos, I'm worried


about the direction they'll take our country. I'm terrified about that.


APPLAUSE Chris Grayling. Accurate description


of the DUP? Parties work together often disagreeing significantly


about issues that are important one or the other. Sinn Fein and the DUP


worked side-by-side in Northern Ireland and the administration. We


were with the Liberal Democrats for five years, we didn't always agree.


I fundamentally disagree with the DUP about same-sex marriage but it's


part of the way of life in England, Wales and Scotland. Not in Northern


Ireland yet. I suspect it will be in due course. See sheds -- she said


she wanted to govern in the national interest, which sounds slightly


conciliatory, it it sounds like a consensus, she has a dysfunction


between what she says and what she does. She's not going to call an


election, she's going to call an election. She's going to speak with


everyone, no, she will huddle with the DUP. You, with the beard, behind


their and another question. The DUP is nonsense is usually confined to


Ben France -- Belfast and the Northern Ireland at the thought of


it having a global platform in a coalition is terrifying. What price


do you think the DUP will be asking Mr Grayling and his colleagues to


pay? They are pretty pro-Brexit, the thought of a hard border in Ireland


gain is also pretty upsetting. They are pro-Brexit and the sake of


frictionless border. Non-others want a hard border in Ireland. Between


Northern Ireland and the Republican. Nor does the European Union, and I'm


very confident we will end up with an arrangement that makes sure that


doesn't happen. A man in pale blue, in the third row from the back. What


does the panel think of the argument that the reason Theresa May called


for the election to get a great majority was stopped the hard


Brexiteers in the ranks of the Tory party from forcing... ? To give


herself a big enough majority. We'll take a question. Jonathan Dowkes.


Will 9th June 2017 be remembered as the day Brexit died?


Wow. Armando Iannucci she -- Armando Iannucci. There's a last-minute gasp


of Nexit resuscitation today. We didn't vote for hard Brexit. We


voted for Brexit. I agree with that. I disagree on the campaign to have


another referendum. It insults the 52% who voted for Brexit. But we


didn't vote for the specifics. We didn't decide what kind of Brexit we


wanted, what we wanted to do with our borders, all those have to be


discussed. My beef with Theresa May is that having gone to the country


to discuss Brexit, but then refused to do so, but talk about the beans


with her husband on the one show instead, and therefore to keep quiet


on the one thing she wanted to have a conversation with is about, I


think now it's incumbent on her to open up and to say it didn't work.


This country is not a hard Brexit supporting country and one


alternative I do suggest, I'm just throwing it out there, is if we do


have a negotiating table laid out with members of the main parties, we


put our differences aside for two years, do the deal and have another


election instead. APPLAUSE


I think there's a really cynical operation under way here on the part


of Remainers to try to pretend that last night's result was some kind of


verdict on Brexit. Now, although Theresa May called the election


ostensibly to get a greater mandate on Brexit, one of the weird things


about the campaign is that Brexit was hardly talked about at all and


in fact if you look at the results from last night... They wanted a


blank cheque. If you look at the results from last night, some of the


largest voices remain, like Nick Clegg, lost their seats. Alistair,


you spent much of the campaign moaning about how no one was talking


about Brexit so how can you now say that some reason this is now a


verdict on Brexit? I'm not saying it was a verdict on Brexit but it was


an issue. One of the most extraordinary, I don't know if it's


been announced with Kensington and Chelsea, but if Labour win that


don't tell me that's... Leiva have wing-macro it. A big pro-remain


protest vote. -- Labour have won it. Let's come back to the point the


prime ministers said she wanted stable, secure government, in order


to negotiate Brexit, so Chris Grayling, she failed to get that.


She's in a minority. The question Jonathan Dowkes asked, does that


mean there's going to be a change in attitude towards our negotiations


with the EU? There are many ways in which you and negotiate with the EU.


It doesn't have to be we pull entirely out. Is it going to modify


her approach? The question was during the ninth the day Brexit died


and it's not at all. -- the 9th of June. You haven't got the numbers. I


do not accept... APPLAUSE


I don't accept the concept... Anna Soubry is back. Some of the Tories


are going to help to stop a hard Brexit because they believe there is


no mandate for it. Let Chris Grayling said his stall out. I do


not believe in this concept of hard Brexit and soft Brexit.


APPLAUSE We voted to leave the European


Union. We voted in my view to have the ability to control the flow of


people into the United Kingdom. We voted I believe to have good,


constructive relations with our European neighbours, to have the


competence of free trade agreement. All of that requires us to take the


approach the Prime Minister set out. There's no magic alternative way.


There's no magic way of staying in the single market and limiting the


flow of people into the country. If there's one message that came loud


and clear out of the referendum, people want is to have the ability


to control the flow of people. What Theresa May has set out as the only


realistic way to pursue a deal with the European Union that works for


them and us. It's what we want to have. We want a collaborative


relationship. We want to work together on Security and defence and


a comprehensive free-trade agreement. That's what the


overwhelming majority -- majority of people want in this country. What do


you think... APPLAUSE


What do you think the Labour or the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth


Davidson meant, who did so well in Scotland and is so admired by the


Conservative Party, when she said in the press conference yesterday, we


must seek to deliver an open Brexit, not a closed Brexit. Which puts our


country's economic growth first. An open Brexit, not a closed Brexit.


Does that mean anything at all? I agree with that. I did not campaign


to leave the European Union for this country to become a closed door,


erected barricades at Dover, cut ourselves off from the world. What I


want is to be as an outward facing, globally focused nation, trading


with the world, but I want is outside the political structures and


process of integration that is being driven in Brussels. A couple more


points. The vote yesterday was a vote telling Brexit because the vote


was, the hard Brexit parties got 44%. They got 52 in the last Brexit


election. Yet, but, now this time they got 44%. Just so obvious that


the campaign was not about Brexit. It was about the UK. Axes vote was


about the UK. The whole thing and you squabbling about who wins who


loses. The vote yesterday was about the UK and how we govern ourselves


and it's not about, Brexit is going to ruin that. It's going to ruin all


of the people. It's going to ruin this country. You, sir? I'm losing


my way among the hands. The Conservative Party, even for those


Remainers who are now committed to the idea, why don't you come clean


with some details instead of giving cliches like Brexit means Brexit?


APPLAUSE The 12 point plan that Theresa May


published, nine out of them are tautological statement. All others


have been waiting for months now to come up with some clarity. I was a


Remainer, but now I'm committed the idea, gives some details. Do you


want to close it, keep it open? Shami Chakrabarti. I think you are


onto something. I think Theresa May called that snap election because


she thought she would get a landslide. Why did she won a


landslide? Not because she wanted to unite people and bring everyone


together, but she thought it would give her a blank cheque and cushion


her to ram through any kind of deal whether it was popular with the


British people or not, and not share the details with us. If it went


sour, she thought she would still have a bit of a cushion.


That has all gone completely wrong and so yesterday and today she


should have been doing as we have been saying this evening. She should


have said, I called this election to get greater numbers and greatest


strength. That has not happened, I have to bring more people with me. I


thought Kensington and Chelsea had declared, it has not yet declared.


You have gone to Lala land. I think all parties have a responsibility to


reduce the risk that this country is constantly being exposed to. A


referendum that we did not need, an election that we did not really


need, constant risk and the risk and uncertainty the country is being


exposed to. Every party now has a responsibility to get rid of that


risk and getting the country back on the road. By doing what? That is my


question, what are they going to do? Last night the vast majority of


people who voted voted for parties that said we want to leave the


European Union. Both the Tory and the Labour manifesto pledge to leave


the EU, so let's not rewrite that. The Labour manifesto said it wanted


an end to pre-movement. But she said this election was about Brexit and


she did not discuss it. She said every single vote was in my hand


these negotiations. She has now lost the authority to negotiate. Brexit


was discussed with the leader of the campaign and the reason she called


the election was she found herself in the position of being accused of


not having a personal mandate as Prime Minister. Can we follow the


logic of this? If she went to the country looking for an endorsement


on her views on Brexit and she lost her majority, surely she has lost


the endorsement of the country for her views on Brexit? She is the


Prime Minister with the largest block of members in the House of


Commons with 43% of the vote in a Parliament that voted overwhelmingly


for Brexit. She said, if I lose six seats, Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime


Minister. Well he isn't, so get over it. We have got other things to talk


about it. The details of how to


apply are on the screen. Let's take another question and put


the boot on another foot, James Why are Labour happy


about losing another election? Good question. We are clearly not


happy about losing another election, but people in this country have


shown an appetite for change. I personally think there is something


quite extraordinary that has happened over the past seven weeks


when you had all the commentary and Theresa May and her colleagues


completely dismissing Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, the whole


party, it was all a joke, it was going to be a complete disaster, we


would be annihilated. Look what happened. We got some fair coverage


in the broadcast media. There was even a certain David Dimbleby who


said in the campaign there had not been fair treatment of the Labour


leadership in the media. You get a British electorate campaign which is


something to be proud of. But you lost. Of course we did. Isabel


thinks I am running away from the reality. Of course we lost, but we


made some games and we ran a positive campaign and we did as well


as we did because we were not attacking people and calling their


character into question and calling them names. We ran a positive


campaign with an incredibly popular manifesto. Yes, it was about the NHS


and getting rid of tuition fees and treating the elderly well. Our


manifesto was popular and theirs was not. You, sir. Not only did you lose


this election, but what has happened is Labour has made the situation


into uncertainty and confusion. Because we did too well? What


happened is nobody believed you were going to win, but you stole the


votes and it is a complete mess now. Alastair Campbell. A proper English


centres, it is like a dog in a manger. Do not win and do not let


anybody else when and that is what Jeremy Corbyn is doing. That is a


very strange view of democracy. Kensington and Chelsea has now been


declared and Labour has taken that seat.


CHEERING Alastair Campbell.


We have a balanced audience. Let's hear from those who think that is an


error. That is the spirit, thank you. I work with the government in


the Socialist party in Albania which has a general election on. Somebody


in the party set me a message today, they were watching our election on


television, and they said why are the winners looking like losers and


the losers looking like winners? It echoes what you are saying. The


answer is about expectations. Theresa May called this election,


utterly convinced she was going to get a landslide and she has not.


Jeremy Corbyn went into this election with a lot of critics,


myself included, and your former paper, the Daily Mail pouring more


dirt on him than we had. I was literally counting the minutes until


you were going to have to go at that paper. It is so boring. It is a


really poisonous paper, that is why. CHEERING


And what is more, Alastair, they buy it.


They may buy it, but if that is all you care about, that is fine. I have


had a lot of criticism in my time and I still have doubts about the


way the Labour Party is going, we still have to build a coalition to


get back into power and I am never happy when Labour lose and I want


Labour back in power. What is it you want to do to change? It seems that


people like you in the Labour Party I thinking huge spending, get rid of


the deficit, give the students free tuition. You cannot afford it, it is


Labour giving presents to the voters. What do you want them to do?


Do you want Jeremy Corbyn to stay? He ran a very good campaign and he


showed whereas Theresa May cannot campaign, he can campaign and he has


strengthened his position. So you will just keep on campaigning? The


whole Blair and Brown era, people still focus on it, but I want the


Labour Party to get back where we are an opposition that understands


the challenges facing the country and understands that nobody ever


wins from a section of the electorate, you have to go abroad


and white. The other thing I would like to see Jeremy Corbyn do is now,


and this idea that he was not remotely prime ministerial, I think


he can step up on the question of Brexit by doing what Theresa May is


refusing to do, and that is to start to reach out and talk to other


parties. I wish we could get over this old Tony Blair and the factions


and the rest of it and start cementing the Labour Party. You wish


that, but you have been stirring it up all these years. Since the second


leadership election most of the critics have shut up and got on with


it. What has been shown is Jeremy Corbyn has been able to energise


people. But it was quite a small swing and there is a lot more to do


to get the Labour Party back as a party of government with a credible


government that these people would vote for. Chris Grayling. Would you


and Tony Blair have been comfortable proposing to the country this


manifesto with all the economics behind it and all the issues about


borrowing and the extra cost on taxation? Would you be comfortable


with a huge increase in corporate taxes just at the moment we are


leaving the European Union and we want to attract more business? I


voted for it. I voted for it and I know Tony Blair voted for it. Would


we have done that in 2001-2005? I suspect we would not have done it.


But I suspect the Labour Party is onto something at the moment. And


this is the big thing, people are sick of austerity and being told


there is no other way. The man in the fifth row. Fire away. I think


the only reason that Labour did so well was because Jeremy Corbyn was


offering the Earth, the world, which he could not cost. Every time they


were asked they did not have an answer. Jeremy Corbyn and Diane


Abbott could not answer when they were asked questions about costing.


That is why he did well? The voters are gullible, they do not respect


those who vote for them. He could not afford it. But we can afford it.


Armando Iannucci. What politicians do in the next 24 hours is crucial.


I hope Jeremy Corbyn does not fall back into his default that what he


has is a protest movement and he had a fantastic rally and it would be


great if we did another one next Saturday and let's keep going. I


would like to see him acting as Leader of the Opposition and


opposing. That means taking his talent in parliament and his MPs and


reaching out to those and others like Chuka Umunna and Yvette Cooper.


It also means reaching out to other parties. If you look at it, Labour


put their heart and soul into this election and they got a tremendous


amount of new voters and we still did not do it. That is because the


system is broken. We have had a tiny minority governments for the last


three elections and we have never had a sizeable majority for the last


15 years and the Tories have not had one for the last 30 years. It means


parties will have to speak to each other. Where Jeremy Corbyn did


resonate with voters is in authenticity. One of the problems


with Theresa May's campaign issue came across as very robotic. If you


behave like a robot when the voters are going to vote for a clown


instead, and let's be honest... BOOING


Jeremy Corbyn failed last night and we should not get carried away and a


lot of Tories will be happy if he stays on for the next five years


because he will fail again because he is not electable.


The gentleman there. Just a minute ago members of the panel were very


disrespectful to the people of Northern Ireland when you are


slagging off the DUP. The DUP represent those people, so now I am


going to slag off all the people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. There have


not been any cuts. Every year public expenditure is going up ten or 20


billion. There has not been any austerity. The government spends an


enormous amount. It goes up every year. Jeremy Corbyn is a very angry,


misguided person who does not believe it. David Cameron was


reassuringly dishonest. Chris Grayling, I really reassuringly


dishonest character, David Cameron. 20 billion a year, the government


expenditure goes up. It is the case if you take the example of the NHS,


we increase the budget every year and we always have in government and


we always will. The Conservative Party has been in power the majority


of time the NHS has been in existence and we have looked after


it and funded it. We put more money into it every year.


I think there's a considerable amount of difference between someone


that's good at campaigning and someone that can actually form a


government and lead the country. At softer Jeremy Corbyn. He's a nice


guy. He's a good campaign. -- hats off to Jeremy Corbyn. He's more


sincere than Theresa May. But when it comes to who is going to leave


the country and managed the Brexit negotiations, I think it puts a lot


more into context. I don't think, I can't see Labour going into


government with him as leader. Is it better to put in charge of Brexit


negotiations someone like Theresa May, who does a deal with the DUP


without actually knowing what it is? You have to remember she's still got


the largest party in government. Her majority is reduced but she's


increased temperature against Jeremy Corbyn. She reduced the number of


seats but she still got the majority and with the DUP. Am not arguing


with the maths. I was arguing with her competence.


APPLAUSE The woman in the front. Do you think


if there had been left anti-Semitism in the Labour Party from people like


Corbyn and perhaps you, Baroness Chakravarty, then Corbyn would be in


power? In government? Do you want to answer that? I said everything I


have to say about that. There have been problems of racism and


anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in Britain, in the parties as


well, but I don't really, I don't think I can attribute the election


result to those issues. I really don't. You might, but I really


don't. Just to answer. There were a lot of conflicted people who judged


people who were unsure because of this. I'm sad to hear that but I


think were able to move forward together now. I made some


recommendations about how people ought to treat each other and I feel


that an appetite for taking this forward. The gentleman who said


Jeremy Corbyn is a great guy and he's decent and authentic, he's a


campaigner, but he's not a leader. I'd ask you to question what you


think leadership is, if it isn't about values and it isn't about


authenticity. APPLAUSE


It's certainly not attending a vigil for IRA terrorists and bombers that


attack innocent people for their own political gain. You have to be able


to lead your own Parliamentary party. Has your party provided


high-quality opposition in last year, Shami? That's a no.


APPLAUSE I've got to respond to that. You


make a point about divided political parties and how they are not going


to be effective, either in government or opposition, that's


clear, but during this campaign is another thing that has gone really


well for us has been the unity of the party. I look forward to seeing


how that plays out,. So do I, obviously. I agree with Isabel


Oakeshott, Jeremy Corbyn had the best chance yesterday to take


advantage of Theresa May's weaknesses, a poor campaign, and he


blew it, he failed. APPLAUSE


. You, sir? You talk about credibility of leadership. How can


he have any credibility with reference to Theresa May to really


think that she can debate, negotiate and extemporised with EU ministers


and leaders, when she completely avoided the debating platform in the


campaign? What kind of leadership does not show?


APPLAUSE Let's, turn, we'll turn to one of


the issues in the campaign that did cause a lot of debate. Angela


Piercy. Does the election result spell


the end of the "dementia tax"? You remember the dementia tax, she


said she hadn't changed her views and that's a matter of debate, I


suppose. Do you want to start on that, Isabel? This is such an


important issue. It was really disappointing that the Conservative


manifesto came out with such a botched approach to it. I think it's


far too important for party politics. I know it's been tried


before, but I think that we owe it to ourselves to have some kind of


cross-party talks, some kind of commission, where we really get to


grips with this problem. It's going to be expensive but it's too


important for things to be labelled dementia tax or death tax. OK. Chris


Grayling. The irony is there was no such thing as dementia tax and in


fact the package compares quite favourably with the situation. Most


people didn't understand, don't understand, the situation today is


if you go into residential care and you have no other financial means,


your house has to be sold there and then and the money is spent down to


the last ?23,000. That's the situation today. It's been the case


for ten, 20, 30 years in this country. What was brought forward in


the Conservative manifesto actually took less from people than the


current system. But we've got to learn lessons around how that came


across, about how it was launched, the communication of it. We need to


do what we promised to do in the campaign, which is to issue a Green


paper, have a proper public consultation about the best way


forward on this. This is one of the great defining issues of our time.


We have to find the best way of solving it. It means difficult


decisions. I'm pretty sure Theresa May in the campaign and going


forward wanted to be honest with the public and say look, this is a huge


challenge, it's going to cost is collectively and individually and we


have to address it. Why didn't she explain it then? Why didn't she go


on television and debate the pros and cons? I agree, I was on the


daily politics with Andrew Neil and someone from the Institute for


Fiscal Studies the day the Tory manifesto came out on these two


great big brains between them couldn't work out whether this was a


good thing, a bad thing, or an easy thing to explain are difficult thing


to explain, and if they couldn't do it I'm sure most of us couldn't do


it. That was a problem. She had three or four weeks in which to


explain it and take it on and to engage with you about it, find out


what the issues and problems were, and she ignored that. You, sir. I'm


more worried about the risk of basically how many more weeks will


it take for the wheels to come off whatever agreement they are going to


make and we're going to be sitting here again, discussing the same


issues and going to the polls again? I'd to know what the panel thinks


about how many weeks do you think that will take to happen? What do


you call the wheels coming off? I don't know what agreement they've


done together but obviously when you've got two parties, they'll


disagree, the wheels will come off, something will happen. It was the


social care policy that actually made the wheels come off the


campaign, because I think it was one thing for Theresa May to say I want


a blank check for Brexit, which is why I'm having this election, but


what that did was make people think Hang on a minute she wants a blank


check for everything. One of the things, you know this, the one thing


you've got to do in a campaign, we're back to the question of


confidence. It was so badly handled. The first you guys knew about it was


when you read it in the manifesto. It was done by her mate, two mates


behind the stage who you are trying to get rid of, Timothy and Fiona


Hill, they put it in there, than it was launched on an unsuspecting


world and within a couple of days she had junked it and don't think


Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron didn't see how quickly she jumped it


and it was utterly incompetent. When as Isabel says, this is a really


important issue where we do actually have to have a proper debate about


it. With respect, that's quite right coming from somebody in a party who


brought as the extraordinary experience of Diane Abbott and


police costs, of Jeremy Corbyn costing his policies, so looking at


how badly they handled their ability to explain that. The leader of a


party launching a manifesto. You can't spin your way out of that one.


Even you can't! Shami Chakrabarti. This isn't just about spin all about


confidence, it's about a policy that has terrified a lot of older people


on the doorstep that I've personally spoken to and it's a strange policy


from the Conservatives, who are supposed up a support home owning


and supposed to support that you leave your home to your children.


People have been genuinely terrified and said, I don't want to go into


social care. Everyone is right that we've got a big problem with an


ageing population and we need to take care of them with dignity but


it's got to be a fair tax for everybody, not just taking the tax


from the people who are suffering and have to go into social care.


We've got time for one last question, just. And Edo, please. --


Daniel be done. Now that Jeremy Corbyn did much


better than expected, is it fair to say the media's power


over politics is over? The media being... Newspapers, like


the Sun and the Daily Mail. The BBC? The sun and Daily Mail in particular


are mean if you like towards Jeremy Corbyn and I think it's been shown


in the election yesterday. Armando Iannucci. We've felt for some time


that the way the newspapers have treated anyone on the left has been


sort of fiction. It's their own story that they sell. I think most


people know that it's their story. It's a fiction. Was accounted by


social media in this election? It was. It will take awhile to find out


how much but I think it was. The other parties will catch up on that


as well. The Conservatives and the Leave campaign in the referendum


last year had a massive social media, a sinister one in terms of


collecting data, and what it does is raise the whole issue of the


influence, Facebook and Google and those outlets have, that they are no


longer just distributors of information, they are publishers,


and they need to be regarded as publishers. They publish stories for


profit. That's how they work. That raises that question. I want --


Isabel Oakeshott. I want to get in here before the usual rant about the


Daily Mail. It's a legitimate question and it's difficult to gauge


because when I saw the Sun the Meyler combined front pages


yesterday I thought it might make a significant difference and clearly


it did not -- that Mail front pages. What did they say? They were pretty


robust in their hostility. We found that Jeremy Corbyn was portrayed as


a dustbin and we were advised to bin Corbyn and don't let him put Britain


in the bin. You can't have it both ways, it's difficult to judge. Chris


Grayling? The lesson for politicians is we can't decide how we


communicate to people, we have to look at how they receive their


information and a lot of work to do in the future on improving what we


do with social media. I think Armando makes an important point,


that actually, we also have to be sure what's being put on social


media is accurate. We want a democracy that tells the truth and a


lot of the time... The Daily Mail. Where you accurate, Alistair? You've


got a minute. Let's not spend it all Daily Mail. Briefly, Shami. It's


about being accurate, it's about being fair and giving people a fair


shout and a fair hearing and it's also about nastiness and I think


there was a moment perhaps in this campaign where some of these attacks


went a bit too far. On social media. APPLAUSE


It's possible that Mail in particular was so over the top that


in the last few days it actually helped the Labour Party because the


public are seen through it and I do urge you all, thank you for the


encouragement to do this, Isabel, I urge you all, if you want to help


democracy, stop buying the Daily Mail.


APPLAUSE OK. I don't know why we have to go


on about the Daily Mail the time. Next Thursday, Question


Time is in Coventry. If you'd like to come


along, go to our website Thank you to the panel and to all of


you who came here. Until Question Time on Thursday, good night.


I've had enough... ..alternative facts.


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