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Tonight, we are in Plymouth, and welcome to Question Time. | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
And on our panel here, the new Conservative Justice | :00:16. | :00:17. | |
Labour's Shadow Health Secretary, Jonathan Ashworth. | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
The newly elected leader of the SNP in the House | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
The Daily Mail columnist, Peter Oborne. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
And the businesswoman who took the Government | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
to court over Brexit, Gina Miller. | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
And from home of course, you have Twitter, Facebook, | :00:38. | :00:55. | |
you can use hashtag BBCQT, or you can text us on 83981, | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
and if you push the red button you can see what others are saying. | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
Our first question tonight from Daniel Winston, please. | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
Given that major policies from the Conservative | :01:09. | :01:09. | |
manifesto were missing from the Queen's Speech, | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
is it time for Theresa May to finally admit that she does not | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
And if you look at the outcome of the general election, | :01:15. | :01:29. | |
while we did not get the overall majority that we had hoped for, | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
and that clearly has consequences for the legislation that we are able | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
to take through Parliament and means that we have to look for ways | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
in which to work with other parties on issues where there is common | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
ground, then the Conservative Party remains over 50 seats ahead | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
And if you add Labour, Lib Dem, Nationalist MPs together, | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
there are still fewer MPs than there are Conservatives. | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
So I think we have a responsibility to get on and govern. | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
And in the circumstances the electorate has given us, | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
and if you look at the programme, amidst the legislation | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
and the non-legislative initiatives that have been announced on sorting | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
out Brexit in a way that protects the interests of all parts of this | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
country and gives us a stable statute book the day that we leave, | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
if you look at the measures on the economy, boost to technical | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
education, taking forward the biggest infrastructure programme | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
that we've had in more than a century, measures | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
But the question is about all the things that dropped out. | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
People went to the polls and all the things they may have | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
And you can only take legislation through, David, | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
We have to live with the cards the electorate has given you. | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
I think that after a vanity referendum and a vanity election, | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
I think that what we have is a crisis of legitimacy. | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
Yes, I think that's a very good description, and to answer | :03:07. | :03:16. | |
Daniel's question directly, yes, we have possibly the thinnest | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
Queen's Speech for over 100 years and the weakest and most unstable | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
And when you look at the big challenges facing the country, yes, | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
we have the challenge of Brexit, where we start those negotiations | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
We have an NHS in crisis, with waiting lists close | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
to four million and parts of it being sold off and privatised. | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
We have a child poverty crisis, with child poverty likely to hit | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
On the economy, we have wages stagnating, we have | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
zero-hours contracts, insecure work and people | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
And as we have seen in recent days, in very tragic circumstances, stark | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
And there were no answers in this Queen's Speech to any of those. | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
And the driving force of this Government now | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
is their own political survival, not the interests of | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
I want her to reverse the austerity cuts to public services. | :04:19. | :04:28. | |
I want her to reverse the cuts to the schools. | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
I want her to reverse the cuts to the National Health Service. | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
And I want her to reverse the cuts to social care. | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
By the way, incredibly decent of Mr Ashworth | :04:38. | :04:47. | |
and his colleagues to sit on the opposition benches, given | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
They actually were hammered in this election. | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
They were 2 million votes worse off than the Tories. | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
We are in Plymouth where we took a seat off the Tories. | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
And Peter, when Theresa May went to the country, | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
she thought she was going to get a landslide victory. | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
She was putting the party interest first. | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
She has not got a majority in Parliament. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Even by your own pathetic logic, if the country rejected her, | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
How can we trust Theresa May to deliver Brexit when she can | :05:24. | :05:37. | |
You know, the hubris from this Prime Minister is astonishing. | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
Really the contempt I think she has had for Parliament | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
Saying that she was going into this election expecting a landslide. | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
My goodness, she has been given a bloody nose. | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
And perhaps she can actually take some lessons from us up in Scotland. | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
We in the SNP, we won the last three Scottish elections and we've | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
actually just won this election in Scotland as well, | :06:04. | :06:05. | |
There are two major issues we are facing. | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
And I think it's absolutely crystal clear from the election result | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
we had two weeks ago there is no longer a majority for a hard Brexit. | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
We have to have humility from the Prime Minister. | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
She needs to reach an accommodation with all the people in this country. | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
Now, we accept that the United Kingdom voted to leave | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
the EU but we also need to have a recognition | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
from the Prime Minister that Scotland, Northern Ireland | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
And it's important that what we have respect across all the government | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
The Prime Minister promised us that we would have the views | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
of the Scottish Government and others taken into account. | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
There has to be a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
and we need to make sure, as many have argued for, | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
that the administrations in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
You think you can hold up the process? | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
What we have said is that we are willing to compromise. | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
We published a document last December recognising | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
the position that the UK is in, but saying quite clearly | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
that we cannot be dragged out of the single market | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
There are 80,000 jobs in Scotland, many more throughout the UK that | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
What do you mean by you are willing to compromise? | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
You are not in a position to demand a compromise, are you? | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
You don't have a majority, you can't put a majority | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
We don't have a majority in the House of Commons | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
but the point is the Government in London doesn't have a majority, | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
and the Government's going to have to listen. | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
Even if you look at the Queen's Speech, it talks about this, | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
about building a consensus across the devolved nations. | :07:38. | :07:38. | |
So we're willing to do that, but we need to make sure | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
that the devolved administrations will be there. | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
We now know that the Government is going to have to come | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
to the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Government and get | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
So the Government have now got to extend that hand of friendship, | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
to allow us to make sure that we can protect the interests | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
of the Scottish people and the Scottish economy, | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
and by extension we will do a job for people in the rest | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
But lastly also, it's about austerity. | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
There's 9 billion of additional cuts coming in this Parliament, | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
and we need to make sure there's an alternative to those cuts, | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
I find it extraordinary the arguing and name-calling that goes | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
Do you not appreciate where we are, the severity of where we are? | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
Brexit has fractured everything we took for granted as our society. | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
And we need to be very, very realistic about where we are, | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Because what the Queen's Speech showed is that Government | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
It's not looking after, as somebody mentioned, NHS, or education. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
It is obsessing with Brexit because they have no idea how | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
they are going to do it in the time, how they are going to get | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
To have said there isn't going to be a Queen's speech next year is just | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
a travesty of democracy, to say that they are just | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
But when it comes to the question on the DUP, there is something that | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
people seem to have missed about this negotiations on DUP. | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
If the DUP get this hard-headed negotiation, 2.5 billion, | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
that they are asking for, the Barnett Formula says | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
that the other devolved powers are going to have | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
That's about 3 billion for Wales, about eight | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
So we in the UK are suddenly going to have to foot that bill. | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
Let me go to one or two members of the audience and then come back. | :09:32. | :09:49. | |
I'd like to follow on from Gina Miller. | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
The irony that we are in the United Kingdom | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
Surely we should be looking at a cross-party alliance. | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
Every single person has voted, every single person is affected by Brexit. | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
However, I do not believe that Tories should be | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
Isn't it the case that Theresa May would already be long gone | :10:08. | :10:21. | |
if the video of her saying to a police officer, | :10:22. | :10:23. | |
"Stop scaremongering, stop crying wolf", a Manchester | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
police officer, warning her, pleading with her to reconsider | :10:26. | :10:27. | |
the massive cuts she made to policing as Home Secretary, | :10:28. | :10:29. | |
The media have failed this country terribly in not | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
showing this to the public before the election. | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Talking about a cross-party alliance to put through Brexit, | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
But I think I would say something to the Remainers, | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
and to people like Gina, to be honest, and probably to quite | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
There was a vote this time last year, 12 months ago, | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
where the majority of the British people voted for Brexit. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
We then had a general election where 83% of the country | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
I say to the Remainers, yes come on board, let's do | :11:15. | :11:23. | |
a constructive Brexit, don't try and wreck it. | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
Actually, I ensured there was a legal Brexit | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
because if you'd had your way, what we'd have is an illegal Brexit | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
where a Prime Minister was putting herself above what, | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty which is the thing you were all | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
You said no objection with Parliamentary sovereignty, | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Theresa May actually got a million more votes than Labour so where's | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
the million other voices coming from then? | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
In the referendum, EU citizens were affected by it. | :12:02. | :12:14. | |
We were not asked and the people who were UK citizens were not asked | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
So the majority was made up of that and lies and still there is no way | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
that people understand what it means to leave. | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
It's an absolute disgrace that a year on from the European | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
referendum, and I've had European citizens coming to my surgery | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
in tears, because they don't know if their rights | :12:37. | :12:38. | |
This Government could have made a decision to say that those | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
European citizens here, our families, our friends, | :12:47. | :12:48. | |
our colleagues, they're here, they're staying and their rights | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
Well, we did make just that offer last year and while some | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
of our colleagues in Europe were willing to accept | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
that and talk about it, the view amongst others was that | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
until Article 50 had been triggered, that they could not get involved. | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
We should be saying to these people, your future is safe in our country, | :13:07. | :13:18. | |
The threat of deportation that many see is absolutely abhorrent. | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
Hang on a second, Theresa May's apparently today | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
Of course what that guarantee consists of we don't know, | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
but has guaranteed the rights of the citizens | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
That's not been announced in Parliament. | :13:37. | :13:45. | |
If you are going to treat this country with respect, | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
that announcement has to be made in Parliament and there should be | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
What she is doing is explaining the offer in the context | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
of the negotiations to her fellow heads of Government at their meeting | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Why wasn't there an amendment in the Article 50 Bill? | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
We made an offer to sort 24 issue out ahead of triggering Article 50. | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
The response from your European colleagues was until that | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
treaty process had begun, we couldn't do so. | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
Let me respond if I may, because one of the points has been | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
I was handing out leaflets campaigning very hard | :14:25. | :14:43. | |
I was deeply disappointed by the result but I know had it been | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
52-48 the other way round, I would have been squaring up | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
to those of my colleagues in Parliament who'd campaigned | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
to leave and say sorry chaps, I know it's not what you wanted | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
but you have to accept the public verdict and I think | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
if we are somehow setting aside how people had voted... | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
Don't shout out, I'll bring a microphone to | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
If you shout out, nobody will hear you. | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
If we set aside how people had voted, that will do profound damage | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
to public confidence in the democratic process | :15:12. | :15:13. | |
I want to hear this man here because he's been shouting out, | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
he might as well say what he's got to say. | :15:18. | :15:19. | |
It's somewhat unedifying to see all the politicians and non-politicians | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
There's a common consensus here and you're all dodging | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
The millions of people watching television tonight are screaming | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
and shouting probably at their television screens | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
because you are all studiously avoiding the question - | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
the question was, has Theresa May's Government got | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
any legitimacy after losing their majority. | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
All the pundits, all the academics, commentariats, career politicians | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
represented gathering around this panel tonight guaranteed that | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Theresa May's gamble would pay off, that she would come back | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
with a majority of 100 seats, 120 seats, that Corbyn would be | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's proven that anti-austerity policies are popular. | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
The Tories and the Blairites lost that election. | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
We were talking about Brexit and we've got a Brexit question | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
I would like to take and then we'll go back to maybe Corbyn | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
One year on from the EU referendum, are we any wiser | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
We have all been talking about Brexit. | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
It's still the back of an envelope proposition, | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
we still haven't seen any details, that's what worries me. | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
All this remain/leave debate, it's got to move on. | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
Everyone has to move on because it's not about going back, | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
We need to see the details, we need to see the direction of travel, | :16:54. | :17:05. | |
what are the options, and there is nothing, | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
there is rhetoric, it is empty and means nothing. | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
Sorry, I'm not clear what you are asking for. | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
Do you have a view of what you think Brexit should be like or are | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
you saying that the Prime Minister should say, or David Davis should | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
It should be quite clearly a cross party delegation committee, | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
however you want to call it, that goes forward for the best | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
If they cannot get the best possible deal which gets us into somewhere | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
which isn't similar economically and socially from the defence point | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
of view, all those sorts of different facets, | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
and it's not achievable in the two years, then to my mind, | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
the first thing that should happen is a transitional period should be | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
talked about because it cannot be done in 12 months. | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
You cannot undo 43 years in 12 months. | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
The reason I say 12 months is because it won't start | :17:57. | :17:58. | |
until after the general elections and it needs, as we know, | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
a ratification period of about six months so it's just impossible. | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
Let's start talking about reality here. | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
Do you go into the board telling everybody what you're going to do | :18:09. | :18:19. | |
No, you keep it close to your chest and you tell it | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
The country don't need to know it all yet, | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
when she knows what she needs, she can let us know. | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
Wendy, when I do a negotiating strategy, I have to prepare a very | :18:32. | :18:42. | |
detailed cost analysis of why I'm going down that strategy | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
When you go into negotiation, you have to have a position, | :18:46. | :18:55. | |
Those that need to know know, why should you need to know? | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
No, no, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the country. | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
No, no, you're talking about you as well, you don't need | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
to know, none of us need to know yet exactly what's on the table. | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
You should want to know what is going. | :19:13. | :19:14. | |
No, because we know we want to get out of it and that's | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
She won't tell you until she's gone to the table and put it | :19:18. | :19:27. | |
Let's hear from David Lidington on that particular point. | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
Does the Prime Minister,or does David Davis know what he wants and, | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
would you then tell us if you think he does? | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
We know what we want and we've set out the objectives of | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
Those include sorting out on a reciprocal basis | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
the rights of EU citizens here and our own citizens | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
It includes an ambitious third country trade and cooperation | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
agreement with the EU so that we maintain as free trade | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
as possible in those circumstances, that we have arrangements that allow | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
us to continue cooperating with the 27 who'll remain, | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
you know, very close, friends, neighbours | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
David, you will be worrying her because she doesn't want | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
This is laid out in public as an objective. | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
What we are not going to do is to publish a long, | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
detailed analysis of our negotiating position, what we say | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
if the European Union says this to us we'll respond in that way. | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
Nobody in business, nobody in politics, if they're sane | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
does that and reveals it to the other side. | :20:43. | :20:44. | |
Do you agree that the Government's behaving properly and | :20:45. | :20:54. | |
I'm afraid we are not very clear about what the Government's position | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
is, and to be frank, yes, look, I accept that the country | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
voted for Brexit, I obviously campaigned and voted for remain | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
but the country's made a decision and I accept that and we have | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
to move forward and get the best possible deal that puts jobs | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
and prosperity first here in the United Kingdom. | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
But to be frank, I wouldn't trust Theresa May to negotiate her way | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
She still hasn't negotiated the deal with ten DUP MPs, how on earth | :21:16. | :21:24. | |
is she going to negotiate a deal with 27 other European nations. | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
And David Davis in the general election campaign went on one | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
of your rival TV shows and said we are going to have the summer | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
of all rows with the EU over the timetable. | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
He's just caved in this week on the negotiation table. | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
They are not going to put the British interests first. | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
She's lost her mandate, she's lost all authority, | :21:49. | :21:49. | |
they know that and they cannot negotiate the deal. | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
Even without the DUP, the Conservatives have a three | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
Minority Governments, there is a long history | :21:59. | :22:08. | |
It's unstable, as you know, come off it. | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
I'm saying that Theresa May does not just have legitimacy, | :22:13. | :22:22. | |
she has a constitutional duty to form a Government | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
as the largest minority party, she also has a majority, | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
an effective majority over all other parties put together even | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
without the DUP and we mustn't get too excited about this. | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
This Government I'm afraid, it's a great disappointment | :22:43. | :22:43. | |
to you I know, can easily last a very long time. | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
The question was, what does Brexit mean? | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
We don't know what it's going to look like and of course | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
we need to know, we need to be able to plan our live, businesses, | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
we need to be able to plan future strategies after Brexit | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
The EU published its negotiating guidelines ages ago | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
so we know what their stamp on it is but we don't | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
know what ours is, how is that feasible for people | :23:10. | :23:11. | |
You are absolutely right, in has to be a plan. | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
This is not a Government with a plan, this is a shambles. | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
When we had the Article 50 debate in the last Parliament, | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
one of the things we pushed for in the Scottish National Party | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
was to have a so-called reset clause which would have been fantastic | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
opportunity for the Government because if the Government | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
comes back with no deal, it means we reset the whole process | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
that there's an alternative to crashing out of the EU and coming | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
Unfortunately, the Conservatives and Labour would not vote for that | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
opportunity that would have given some protection for people right | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
People talk about the fact that the UK voted to come out, | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
We were told in our referendum in 2014 in Scotland that if we voted | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
to stay within the UK, that our rights to remain | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
Where is the respect to the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
What the Government has to do is to recognise that it's not that | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
They've got to build compromise across the people and the nations | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
of the United Kingdom that respect the differences that exist and allow | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
us together to put forward a deal that would be one that will be | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
to the advantage of all nations of this country. | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
A lot of hands are up, I'll come to you in a second, | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
but David Lidington, we have had voices in Europe now, | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
Donald Tusk saying today he was keeping the door open | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
And the Dutch Prime Minister saying he hates Brexit from every angle | :24:39. | :24:51. | |
and hopes the UK opts for some form of continued membership. | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
What is the Government's attitude to people in Europe saying, hey, | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
Whatever view those of us in Government took in the referendum | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
and there were people who were partisans on both | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
sides in the referendum, but that decision has been taken. | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
But you must love Donald Tusk and Mark Rutte saying these things? | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
What I would say to Donald and Mark and the others, | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
many of these are people I used to see a lot when I was | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
Europe Minister is, right, we want to maintain a close, | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
friendly partnership, we want to have what the PM's termed | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
a deep and special partnership with the 27 countries | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
of the European Union, because there are many challenges | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
There are many things on which we can cooperate together | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
even with us being outside membership of the European Union. | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
So let's try and build that new partnership of cooperation | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
with those neighbouring countries and approach this in a constructive | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
fashion but respecting the democratic decision | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
that the people of the United Kingdom were entitled to take. | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
I work for a local manufacturer who exports around the world. | :25:58. | :26:12. | |
We do a lot to Europe, some to the rest of the world. | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
The rest of the world is a really really tough place | :26:16. | :26:17. | |
Yes, we do it, but Europe is so much closer, geographically, culturally. | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
If there is something to reassure business, | :26:24. | :26:24. | |
something like, yes, we are going to stay | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
in the single market, something like that... | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
Do you expect to get something like that? | :26:32. | :26:32. | |
Certainly staying in the customs union would be really reassuring | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
David talks about wanting free trade with Europe, | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
But the answer to that is the single market. | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
I think in terms of the need to know about what the Brexit plans are, | :26:46. | :26:56. | |
the general election shows that we do need to know. | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
If you want my vote, if you want my trust, | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
I need to know what I may or may not be voting for. | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
I think in the absence of that knowledge, people didn't vote | :27:05. | :27:06. | |
for the Conservative Party that were frankly full of lies, | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
I think in terms of the referendum, the one thing we know about that is, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
yes, OK, one side won, but it was marginal. | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
So the only logical conclusion is the most marginal Brexit | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
imaginable, that would do its best to unite both sides under some kind | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
The woman up there in the second row from the back. | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
I will go to you and then the person beside you, if you like. | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
Yes, I think some people are getting a little bit fed up | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
We want to know hard and fast, what does it mean? | :27:36. | :27:45. | |
Some of us, quite frankly, you hear Brexit and you start switching off. | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
Let's then move on and look at society and look at all | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
the things that also need looking at, education, NHS, etc. | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
I'd like to say, if Europe wanted us to stay in, | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
why didn't they give David Cameron a better deal when he went | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
We didn't know what Brexit was going to mean when we voted | :28:10. | :28:22. | |
Lies were printed in papers like the Daily Mail, | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
So don't we have a responsibility to the British | :28:26. | :28:35. | |
people to give them a referendum when we know the facts? | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
What were the lies in the Daily Mail? | :28:41. | :28:41. | |
Hospitals have seen none of that. | :28:42. | :28:49. | |
The Mail is an extremely accurate and fair paper. | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
You may not like it, but it is read by an awful lot of people, | :28:54. | :29:02. | |
Including, I imagine, a lot of you in this audience. | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
It's a great newspaper, it doesn't tell lies. | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
To be fair to the Mail, I think it was Boris Johnson | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
and Michael Gove who promised us 350 million a week to the NHS. | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
And I bet you we won't see a penny piece of that | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
The man in the back row, about eight down. | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
I would just like to say that the answer to the reason why | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
people don't actually know that many details about what's happening | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
with Brexit is because it's completely unprecedented. | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
We literally are going into unprecedented waters. | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
We are not going to know what's going to happen on the other side. | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
And secondly, can all the parties just kind of come to a consensus? | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
Because you all fundamentally want the same things. | :29:48. | :29:49. | |
I'd like to answer the lady in the blue at the top right, | :29:50. | :29:59. | |
who made such an interesting point about Brexit getting | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
What I'd say is this, the reason we voted for independence | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
for Britain is that we wanted a democracy where we make | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
our decisions about how we govern ourselves. | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
We can't govern ourselves until we've got Brexit | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
because democratic decisions can't be made by politicians in Britain | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
At the moment, they are made by commissioners and foreign powers. | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
OK, now look, we began with a question about whether Theresa May | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
has to admit she doesn't have a mandate. | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so to speak. | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
And let's take a question, please, from Daniel Bulmer. | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
Why won't Jeremy Corbyn accept that he lost the general election? | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
And citing in evidence John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor | :30:45. | :30:55. | |
saying, "I don't think they have the right to govern, | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
they have junked the manifesto", calling for a million people | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
on the streets of London to ensure another election comes | :31:03. | :31:04. | |
Why can't you accept you were defeated? | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
Well, we do accept the election result. | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
We accept the fact that the Tories thought they were going to get | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
a landslide victory and they are a minority government. | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
I'm afraid, sir, it's not irrelevant. | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
Because we now have a weak minority government. | :31:24. | :31:25. | |
And we were told in that general election campaign | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
that she needed a big mandate, that she needed a substantial | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
majority in order to get the best deal for Brexit. | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
She was sent back to the House of Commons as a failure, | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
as the leader of a minority government. | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
We have a Government who may well be in authority | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
They have had to junk their plans to snatch away | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
They have had to junk their plans for grammar schools. | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
They have had to junk their plans for the dementia tax. | :32:01. | :32:02. | |
Because they know they can't get it through the House of Commons. | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
They've got the right to form the Government. | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
Your Chancellor, senior to you in the Shadow Cabinet, says | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
We are all equals in the Shadow Cabinet. | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
So you can disagree with each other and general chaos | :32:19. | :32:28. | |
The only chaos is on the Tory side, David, not our side. | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
More examples of the name-calling and things. | :32:36. | :32:37. | |
And the realism is that as we are sitting here this evening, | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
the EU 27 are sitting having a dinner at which Mrs May will talk. | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
Then she will leave and then they will carve up | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
They will be debating the European Medical Association. | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
They will be debating who gets the European clearing house, EBA. | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
So this whole idea of what's going on here and what we are | :32:55. | :33:02. | |
going to be negotiating, actually we are negotiating | :33:03. | :33:04. | |
And we've got to be realistic about that. | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
And that's why I think a lot of this, what's been said, | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
We are talking about domestic politics just for a moment. | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
You said about the means testing, mentioned the Winter Fuel Payments. | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
What that means is that rich people should not be able to get | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
That money that is saved from that can then go into social care, | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
because social care needs extra money. | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
And the negativity about Brexit is shocking. | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
It's an opportunity for Britain to succeed in the world. | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
The point is, that policy is not going to happen | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
I'm going to try and get people who haven't spoken. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
I just think that the whole Brexit thing is a good example of the fact | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
that party politics is failing, and what we need to go back | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
to is what Parliament was built for and intended for, | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
which is people like me, an independent candidate | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
That's what we need, because people are putting | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
their parties first, before people, and | :34:11. | :34:11. | |
I'm not a Daily Mail reader, but I have read Animal Farm | :34:12. | :34:21. | |
and wasn't it George Orwell wrote that "some are more | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
But my main point is that, sadly, I think we could do with a lot more | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
The fact is that, with respect to Ian for the SNP, congratulations | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
on your appointment, but you lost 24 out of 56 seats. | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
And I certainly agree that the Conservative campaign | :34:42. | :34:53. | |
was from the textbook how not to run an election. | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
But nevertheless, Labour did finish 50 seats behind. | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
So to pretend that that is a win is just absolute nonsense. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
I think we might go on because we are over halfway | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
I'd like an opportunity to answer his question. | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
The question about whether Corbyn lost the election. | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
Because I think the important thing is that this is a Parliament | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
of minorities, but we went into this election with a Conservative | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
Now, I actually think there is an opportunity that | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
will come out of this, because I do not believe | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
that there is support across the United Kingdom for austerity. | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
And I would say to Jonathan and to others, and to some friends, | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
even on the Conservative benches, where there are things | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
which are patently wrong, we have to tackle them. | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
And I think one of the reasons that the Conservatives lost that | :35:50. | :35:51. | |
majority support was the attack on the elderly. | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
And one of the biggest injustices is the one that is faced by many | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
women that were born in the 1950s, that have seen an increase | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
in their pensionable age, which is increasing by six years | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
over a very short period, and some of these women were only | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
That's one thing where I want to see a cross-party consensus, | :36:09. | :36:18. | |
that women born in the 1950s get what is rightfully theirs, | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
Something very frightening is happening. | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
If we had another general election, SNP might well end up | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
They both of them are against what they call austerity. | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
And so they have no idea about economics, how | :36:36. | :36:50. | |
to run a country or how to balance the books. | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
I know the NHS is on its knees and we've got a winter crisis. | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
I know the schools are being cut back. | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
I know child poverty is going to rise to 5 million. | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
I know that disabled people are having their benefits cut. | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
That's what austerity is, and that's why we are opposed to it. | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
We will try and keep to the question that | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
Daniel Bulmer asked, if you don't mind, which was why | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
won't Labour accept the result of the election? | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
Can I start by saying this about Jeremy Corbyn? | :37:23. | :37:31. | |
I probably disagree with him on practically everything | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
and I believe the policies that he champions would bring | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
ruin to the country, but I do think that actually | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
all political parties perhaps need to take note of the fact | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
that his campaign was able to touch a chord with a lot of people | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
who felt alienated from the political process. | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
And I think the gentleman there talked about humility, | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
and I think we do need to approach the result with humility. | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Certainly we do, and all political parties do. | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
And I think we have to play the cards the electorate has dealt us. | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
That does not take away some of the very big challenges. | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
The gentleman over there talked about social care. | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
We have an ageing society, more people living to a great age. | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
We have to find ways in which to continue to put more | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
resources into social care in a way which... | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
Don't shout out, please, because he has to go | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
So you might as well keep quiet and hear what he has to say. | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
You are one person in an audience of 150. | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
I don't want you taking over this programme. | :38:45. | :38:46. | |
And we have to find a way of getting extra resource | :38:47. | :39:01. | |
into social care which is fair between the generations. | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
Because you cannot simply add to the taxes all the time of younger | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
And the corporation tax yield has gone shooting up | :39:08. | :39:18. | |
since the Government reduced the rates of corporation tax, | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
providing more money for the National Health Service, | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
schools, social care and the other public services, | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
so please show a bit of financial literacy. | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
One of the things I'm very concerned about is this whole idea | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
about balancing the books and Brexit and who pays the price at the end | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
of it, because I can see we are leaving problems, | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
piling it up for the next generations. | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
Because actually, the national debt... | :39:46. | :39:46. | |
The Tories have not balanced the books, because our debt has gone | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
The question was about, and you may have forgotten | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
because it was some time ago, the question was about why | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
Do you think Labour is not accepting the result of the election? | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
I thought we had gone on to the others. | :40:07. | :40:08. | |
Try and get back to the point, if you can. | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
I'm sorry, we live in a democratic process where the Conservatives won. | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
They didn't win by a landslide, so it was a hung parliament. | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
I'm not a Conservative, so I didn't lose anything. | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
There is a hung parliament, which is constitutionally | :40:22. | :40:31. | |
allowed in this country, even if there is no | :40:32. | :40:33. | |
The government can operate, because they won. | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
Do we want more instability in this country? | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
I think you ought to leave, you know, because... | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
that the maths does not work with Labour and all the other | :40:49. | :41:19. | |
I'm not a Conservative voter but I think we need some type of stability | :41:20. | :41:30. | |
in our country. We need to let the Government see if they can carry | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
this forward. We don't know if they can. The first hurdle will be | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
whether they can get the vote on the Queen's Speech next week. If they do | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
not, it will be the first time the Queen's speech has been voted on and | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
not gone through. That's how Farage ill our constitutional landscape is, | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
that's how fragile our political landscape is. We have to be sensible | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
about this, we have to let the Government try. | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
I can see you are keen to speak but we have another question. We are 40 | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
minutes through the programme. Before we go to it, we are in | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
Hastings next week. If you didn't feel you had your shout here, you | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
can come there. And we are in Burton upon Trent the week after that, so | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
Hastings then Burton. The details of how to get to be in the audience are | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
on the screen and I'll give them again at the end. This question from | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
Chris Wilcox, please? Is austerity responsible for the | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
deaths of the Grenfell residents? There is a context here in Plymouth | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
because it's been confirmed today that three of the tower blocks in | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
Plymouth are among the seven in the UK that have so far been revealed of | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
having similar cladding to the Grenfell Tower. But the question is, | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
I suppose, springs from Labour's point about this, if you deny local | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
authorities the funding they need, there's a price to be paid, as | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
Jeremy Corbyn said. Ian Blacked for is austerity responsible? It's | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
important firstly that we pay our respects to the people that suffered | :43:26. | :43:35. | |
as we saw the terrible horror of the people and the terror they must have | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
gone through. We are also aware of the tremendous emergency services. | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
APPLAUSE. I am delighted there'll be a public | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
inquiry and it's important that those that lived in the gren fell | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
tower get the answers that they deserve. First and foremost, it | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
should be about the people there. There has to be an absolute | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
determination by all of us that this must never happen again. To what | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
extent do you think from what has come out already that austerity and | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
cuts and the funding of local councils across the country under | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
both Labour and Conservative administrations has led to people | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
cutting corners? We have to look at what we have done with quantitative | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
easing. We have poured ?435 billion into quantitative easing at the time | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
we said we haven't got money for fiscal responsibilities. We have a | :44:39. | :44:49. | |
responsibility to make sure we have a society that has money. We | :44:50. | :45:00. | |
havended up in this situation. We all have to learn lessons. The | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
political culture that has developed, and also the fact that we | :45:05. | :45:13. | |
need to have a balanced housing policy and we need to recognise for | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
for people living in social housing, we deserve to have the best | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
circumstances and building materials as we would have in private estates | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
as well. APPLAUSE. | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
First of all it's very important to say we don't know the answer. It's | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
very important not to... The Government's called rightly, a full | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
inquiry. We mustn't jump to conclusions or make sweeping | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
statements after a day or two, as I think some have. It's of such a | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
serious issue and it's so clearly the case these all be made safe, | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
these tower blocks. Paradoxically, it looks as though spending money | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
made the tower blocks more dangerous because this cladding was added and | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
it's flammable and without the old system whereby each flat was | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
protected from each other one seems to have somehow been broken down. | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
But that said, I do think there is an issue about the kind of society | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
we live in. I think there is a metaphor about Kensington and | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
Chelsea although there is no evidence that it could have happened | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
near a Labour borough as well. Kensington and Chelsea boast about | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
how low their rates are in a borough where so many people are very, very | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
rich, and I do worry that there is something wrong about that. | :46:41. | :46:49. | |
The man there in the white shirt? The building regulations have not | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
been changed for 20 years by successive Governments. Theresa May | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
should order a ban on using any type of cladding until the public inquiry | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
concludes. OK. But the question is... You at the centre, the third | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
row from the back? I would like to correct his facts. Whose facts? Mr | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
Oborne. The cladding that was put on was flammable and it was ?2 less a | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
unit than the fire resistant stuff. The price to put the fire resistant | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
cladding on would have been ?5,000 for the entire building! And you're | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
telling me this is not because of austerity, that we don't know the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
answer. I'm absolutely flabbergasted, Sir. That wasn't his | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
answer. His answer was the cladding was the | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
flammable cause why the flames jumped from flat-to-flat. That was | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
his... It would have taken ?2 more to put the fire resistant cladding | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
on and that austerity council decided to put the cheaper stuff on. | :47:58. | :48:08. | |
Can I say something... There were no fire extinguishers in | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
the flats, we know that, and no sprinkling system. One thing I'm | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
more concerned about, we are looking at all the other tower blocks. But | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
what about all the other public buildings like schools and places we | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
go to work and everywhere else, does this mean there should actually be a | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
review of all public buildings because if you look at it, some of | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
the new schools don't have sprinkler systems because it's not required. | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
David Lidington is there an issue of austerity? Firstly I want to say, I | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
want to agree with Ian, actually whatever our politics here, I think | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
any words are frankly inadequate to describe what the families have gone | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
through. I think that all parties who've all been in Government at | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
various times in the last 25 years, we all need to do a bit of soul | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
searching about this and Peter did touch on the important point because | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
one of the things that strikes me is that the local community in North | :49:21. | :49:28. | |
Ken clearly feels utterly mistrustful of, and alienated from | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
public authorities and officialdom of all types. That does say to me | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
that, as a country - again I hope this can be sort of cross party | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
views - we have to do something to heal that division. These people are | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
as much part of our country and are entitled to the right | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
responsibilities of citizens of this country as any of us on the panel or | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
any of us here in the audience. APPLAUSE. | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
Now, in terms of attributing blame, I'll say one technical point to then | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
talk more generally about. The technical point is that it's already | :50:11. | :50:19. | |
contrary to existing regulations, to have combustible cladding on any | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
high-rise. I think Camden Council's already said this evening that | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
they're taking legal advice having found that combustible cladding is | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
allegedly on at least one of their tower blocks. There is a Fire | :50:35. | :50:43. | |
Service investigation under way to diagnose precisely the cause of this | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
fire and what the various contributory factors were. There is | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
a criminal investigation going on and I'm going to be very careful in | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
what I say because I don't want to use any language that might, if a | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
person or a company was subsequently charged with a criminal offence, | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
could prejudice a trial in court, which is what might happen. The | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
inquiry will be led by a judge appointed by the Lord Chief Justice | :51:15. | :51:23. | |
with full powers to call for witnesses, for documentary evidence. | :51:24. | :51:32. | |
I think it's the inquiry, the various inquiry investigations I | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
describe that will give us the answers. I've already said | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
combustible cladding in a high-rise is contrary to existing rules, and | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
we need to let the experts examine the evidence and then we should act | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
swiftly on the findings of those investigations. All right. Jonathan | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
Ashworth? Austerity was the question, as the | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
man pointed out? Like all on the panel, thoughts with those who lost | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
their lives and with loved ones and those who need help to rebuild their | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
lives, it will probably take months, years. I want to pay tribute to the | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
extraordinary efforts of the emergency services. Haven't our | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
emergency services been tested so many times in recent weeks and | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
months and haven't they done us proud. | :52:25. | :52:24. | |
APPLAUSE. We need an inquiry, it does appear, | :52:25. | :52:34. | |
according to reports, that the council chose this cheaper cladding, | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
we need to understand what the legalities of it are and we need to | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
know why the local authority came to that decision. On the point about | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
austerity, there is an issue here because many local authorities | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
across the country have not been able to, but are now quite rightly | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
wanting to fit sprinklers, went to change cladding on buildings. One | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
thing I want to say to you David in all sincerity is, please as a | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
Government give local authorities the money to fit the sprinklers now, | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
they need them now. APPLAUSE. | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
We've got three or four minutes left. Terry Portman, your question? | :53:15. | :53:24. | |
If the DUP get an extra ?2 billion for Northern Ireland for their ten | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
MPs to support the Government, can Devon and Cornwall expect ?4 billion | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
for our 20 MPs to support the Government? | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
APPLAUSE. Peter Oborne? I don't think ?2 | :53:39. | :53:49. | |
billion is the right sum of money to give to the DUP. You cannot allow | :53:50. | :53:58. | |
yourself to bribe MPs for support. But if they do get it, should Devon | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
and Cornwall get some? Setting out an excellent reason why the Tory | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
party should not do a deal with the DUP because the SNP, they'll be | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
after more money next and so will everybody else. Devon and Cornwall | :54:12. | :54:21. | |
won't. You want to treated as a special case like Northern Ireland. | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
Do you want independence? Maybe we'd get our railway here and your people | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
could arrive on time. You want to be treated like Scotland and Wales and | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
Northern Ireland? All right. David Lidington, you've got a minute. Or | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
less. Right. Devon and corn, particularly Plymouth and Cornwall, | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
too many people fail to realise, they're pretty poor in the material | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
sense, in this part of the country. So we do need to... We know that. | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
Which is why spending has gone up, I could point to the increases that | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
the local Health Service is getting here to the money that's been set | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
aside to try and provide must have-needed improvement to transport | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
links. Nonsense. You will only be able to distribute money if it's | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
been created by a free enterprise economy that thrives in the first | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
place. So how is the DUP going to get the extra money? I don't know | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
what is going to come out of those talks. She thinks the DUP are | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
getting it. I think let us see what comes out of the negotiations. Ian | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
Blacked for, I have to whizz round. One thing we have said is austerity | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
must end. After the next ?118 billion to be invested in this | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
Parliament - by the way, that would balance the books - we have to | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
recognise the fact that wages are lower than inflation. There is a | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
pressure on living standards, we need to investigate in the living | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
standards, Plymouth, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, give some | :55:51. | :55:52. | |
people hope of a better future. OK. Gina Miller? | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
The magic money tree is an interesting one because I have to | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
say, even independent sources have said both manifestos were not costed | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
in any realistic way and all of this promising of money, where is it | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
going to come from at a time when our economy now is... We are now the | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
lowest of all the EU member states when you look at our economy growth | :56:15. | :56:16. | |
this year. APPLAUSE. | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
I mean, you know, we are endangering our country. All the austerity cuts | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
when it comes to our first response services are being damaged at a time | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
when we need to feel safe. The man there? We have only got 60 seconds | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
left. You will have to be quick. Quantitative easing ?70 billion in | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
August, that's a magic money tree, who does it feed? The banks. We can | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
raise money for infrastructure for what's important, we can also tax | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
those who're paying less tax, comparative to support the whole of | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
the community. All right. Tax them. I don't begrudge the people of | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
Northern Ireland getting an extra ?1 billion to invest in the National | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
Health Service, but if they are going to get extra investment, the | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
English NHS needs extra investment and needs not to be cut back like it | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
is at the moment. All right. I'm afraid our time is pretty well | :57:17. | :57:26. | |
up, sorry. Thank you. We only get an hour, you know. Next week we are | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
going to be in Hastings and we know by next week whether the Government | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
has survived the votes on the Queen's speech. The international | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
trade secretary Liam Fox is going to be on the panel. Then in | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
Burton-on-Trent, go to the website, you can come there, or ring us. | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
Hastings or Burton-on-Trent. If you are listening on Radio 5 Live, | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
Question Time extra time follows this television programme. Here, my | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
thanks to the panel, to all of you who came to Plymouth to take part. | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night. | :58:06. | :58:35. | |
Across the country, 11 million people | :58:36. | :58:39. |