29/06/2017 Question Time


29/06/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Hastings. On the panel are Liam Fox, Stella Creasy, Zanny Minton Beddoes, Kerry-Anne Mendoza and Nick Ferrari.


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Transcript


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Tonight we're in Hastings, and welcome to Question

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On our panel tonight one of the three Brexiteers, the Conservative

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International Trade Secretary, Liam Fox.

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Stella Creasy, the Labour MP, who today

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forced the Government to agree free abortions

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in Britain for women from

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The Editor-in-Chief of the The Economist,

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The founder and editor of the left-wing news website

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host who teaches politicians to count, Nick Ferrari.

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Rememeber at home using Twitter, Facebook or text.

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The first question from Marianne Smith, please.

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Is it right that ten DUP votes have been

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bought by the Government when

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Mrs May told a nurse that there was no magic money tree?

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So, she actually said that here on

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Question Time to a nurse when she was on the programme before the

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"There isn't a magic money tree that we can shake that

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suddenly provides for everything that people want."

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after the election had no overall majority.

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That's what's required by our constitution and that's what

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The DUP share a lot of common elements with the

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Conservative Party, on things like the union,

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believing in the union of

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They support our Brexit deal, they support our

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proposals we have with dealing with extremism.

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They are very important elements going forward.

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It's the billion pounds she's talking about.

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What of course we, it's the MPs from the DUP, clearly,

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they wanted to get better funding for Northern Ireland and things like

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infrastructure and who can blame them.

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They've got an influence that they didn't have before and that's

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But there is something that was different

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about Northern Ireland, if

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you look at the city deals done in England,

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there were over nearly over ?3.2 billion worth

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In Scotland three-quarters of billion

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of city deals done, in Wales half a billion.

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They weren't getting any of the benefit

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of that programme that the

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So to get the funding that it deserves, Theresa May

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has to depend on them to stay in power?

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No, but the funding has been allocated for a number of specific

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Mental health is one of them, clearly.

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The facilities in Northern Ireland should be better

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but also Northern Ireland's infrastructure in terms of its

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economy, has a number of deficiencies.

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Northern Ireland in terms of exports is the lowest

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exporting part of the United Kingdom.

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We were told two weeks ago there wasn't any?

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The money will come from the Treasury, it will have to come

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from within the existing programmes that we have.

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So there is a money tree, you just shake it?

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But we do have programmes that need to be funded.

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Remember this money does not go to the DUP, this money

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goes to the Government of Northern Ireland itself.

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But it is money that is found when you needed to find a

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It's not money that was sitting there that nobody

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There are lots of places in this in this country that could do with a

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I'm interestedin how you started this answer, you said that

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the Government had a duty to form a government.

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It didn't have a duty to do a grubby deal.

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It could have perfectly well functioned as a

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We have had minority governments before,

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although, they tend to be quite weak ones but it's not at all clear to me

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that this deal which not own is frankly, a grubby bribe of a billion

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that this deal which not only is frankly,

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pounds, it also makes the whole peace process somewhat harder.

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I would say that it makes Brexit more

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In this case to paraphrase someone, no deal might have

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The question was, was it right, and it was right and it

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It was wrong because it was shabby but it's what politicians

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sometimes do, and politicians of all colours.

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We can look in the past at Labour, how they, when they were in

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power they channelled vast sums of money to

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northern cities such as

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Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, where they have the core vote, so in a way

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it is the same sort of thing it is equally shabby.

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It shouldn't have been done but it was done.

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How can you possibly equate investing in the regeneraling

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of much needed regeneraling ration of towns and cities across

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the land with a grubby little deal that Theresa May made simply to

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Where I believe it was a good thing, that given what

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we have seen as utterances of Jeremy Corbyn and from the Shadow

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Chancellor, John McDonald, a couple of weeks ago or so.

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prospect of having Jeremy Corbyn as our

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Prime Minister, as I would of as

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going for a Sunday drive with Richard Hammond, so I'm rather

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pleased that they have done the deal.

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We can talk about the mechanics of what's happening in

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Parliament and the fact it basically equates

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to every single DUP, MP,

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being worth ?1 million, but actually what matters here is that this

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country hasn't had a pay rise for ten years.

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People, I see it in my surgery, in my constituency every day, people

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for whom there is far too much month left

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at the end of their money and

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And I'm talking to schools where teachers are

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My local hospital has a nurses shortage.

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Our public sector workers, those firemen, those policemen that kept

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us safe, who ran into burning building buildings.

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And yesterday, Some of them might have turned on

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the news halfway through the day and thought finally, somebody is

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listening, so what a cruel, horrible moment it was,

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when the Government voted down our attempt, to say, you

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know what, there is agreement across this House that these people deserve

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a pay rise, let's do something about it.

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To come back to Marianne's question, we all

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watched that nurse plead with Theresa May, plead with her,

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that she hadn't had a pay rise for ten

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years and she needed a break and the Prime

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Minister looked her square in

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the eye and said there was no magic money tree and when the British

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public refused to give Theresa May a majority,

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the first thing she did with that majority that she bought with ?1.5

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She said to that nurse, she said to the police

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that ran into the Manchester concert bombing and the terrorist attacks on

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London and she said to the firefighters that ran up 20

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storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives,

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storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives -

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I can't believe Liam Fox mentioned security in connection

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The Tory Party tried to smear Corbyn with his connection

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with attempting to create a peace deal in Northern Ireland and now you

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have gone into cruelly with actual terrorist sympathisers who have

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I think it is incredible, especially from Labour,

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that they are not recognising, as Nigel Dodds said, Labour

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tried to do a deal in 2015 and 2010 and also the SNP tried to do a deal

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with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocracy from everybody.

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with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocrisy from everybody.

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Liam Fox, do you want to come back on the money point?

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It's a very good point, a point I was going to make, that

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Stella did not mention about the confidence

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Liam, do you think I would have voted

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to go into coalition with the

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people I've just been fighting about abortion rights with?

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You tried to go into coalition with them in 2010.

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Gordon Brown tried to stay in power by doing

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2010, so let's have none of this high mind stuff.

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Can I ask you, one question is, did you really need to do this?

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It seems hard to believe that the DUP, when push came

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to shove, would vote against you if it meant that

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Jeremy Corbyn would be in power, given his relationship

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I think you have a view that your good negotiators,

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I think you have a view that you're good negotiators,

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with the crack negotiating team, it strikes me

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that in this area it was

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Mr Fox, you can't explain that the deal with the DUP is to improve

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infrastructure, this is really just a employ to get into power.

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infrastructure, this is really just a ploy to get into power.

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Should MPs receive a wage freeze and cap on expenses in this time of

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And I think, Stella Creasy, I'm right in saying you got a 10% pay

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Yes, I and opposed it, and I donated and I have donated it

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Yes, I and opposed it, and I have donated it

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towards the cost in my office of having more casework staff to be

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able to respond to the need of my local community because I won't

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I think that if we're going to ask the public sector to

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continue with pay restraint we will have to do the same.

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I don't think there will be an option.

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We had that correction back in 2015, I think

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that the public found that hard to swallow.

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I think if we got that correction and we are going to have to impose

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continued restraint on public sector, we are going to have to lead

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Would you like to see the pay cap ended?

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I think we need to look at the control of public

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We have a balance here to strike between our duty to remunerate those

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who work in the public sector and also to look

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after the interests of

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the taxpayers who pay the wages for those in the public sector.

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I think that we've got a number of public

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pay review bodies coming forward, that's the appropriate place to look

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But we need to remember that when we're talking about our

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public spending, we are spending as a country

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debt interest, for which we get nothing at all.

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And that's because of the debts we've run up in the

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past and the interest that's accrued on the debts.

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We've got to get to a point where we stop doing that and

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what people call austerity is actually living within your means.

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Hang on, you know the pressure there is.

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You know the pressure there is on the 1% pay cap.

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You opposed it when Labour put up, are you saying there

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will not be any change and there should not be any

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change in that policy, or are you saying wait for

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Maybe the Chancellor will find her way around it.

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The Chancellor has made clear that we will look at the pay review

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bodies for the groups such as the nurses

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that we will look at and as

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But the idea that the country can spend money that it doesn't have and

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simply leave the debt to the next generation is simply not acceptable.

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I have to say, this is high hypocracy indeed from the man who

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submitted an expenses claim for three pence for driving 100m,

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and frankly I'm surprised to see you

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I thought your best friend Adam Werritty might

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replace you which he did when you were Secretary Of Defense and was

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also, put up, I believe, in an apartment in London as taxpayer's

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expense, that's paid for by you, and you were later forced to return

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that you can sit here and talk about those terms with

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a straight face and tell these people, talk about terms of

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austerity, restraint, and living within your own means, when you were

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quite happy to subordinate those in your own interests.

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Can I just say, that you know we are here to have a debate,

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I think people here would like to have a real debate about the real

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I would like to debate with Liam, because you're talking Liam, like

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you haven't been in government responsible for our economy for the

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last seven years, and you're talking like your government doesn't have

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I agree, I want to get the debt down, because every pound we're

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paying in interest is money we're paying to bankers,

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rather than putting into

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That's why I get frustrated when I see your

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government wasting money on things like the bedroom tax, which costs

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more than it saves, on things like the contract to the DWP and

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the person-to-person payments and you wasted ?3 million.

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Your government has promised every single

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If your government was the financial manager

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of a company, you would have sacked them by now.

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You talk about the next generation, you know, there wasn't be any

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midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them.

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You talk about the next generation, you know, there won't be any

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midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them.

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I haven't had pay rise for seven years and I'm very experienced.

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Sorry, are you saying you're leaving, you say

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You talk about the Pay Review Body, the Pay

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Review Body reports that 80% of the midwives that left

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the profession would have stayed if they were

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Let's hear from the woman in green at the back.

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I would want to pay more tax so that our firefighters, paramedics, anyone

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in public service I value the education I have, the education my

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I value the education I have, the education my

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grandchildren will be getting and I value my family

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having a hospital bed, so I don't understand why it is

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The young man in the check shirt in the middle in the third row.

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Going back to MPs' pay, I don't think a lot of people

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realise just how important all MPs' jobs are.

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The initial question was, should MPs have a pay restraint.

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And what I find truly extraordinary is that I heard a figure,

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and bear in mind these nurses and firefighters and others,

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their pay has been capped for seven years.

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And it's a possibility it might be capped for another seven years.

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The last time I looked, when I went to Sainsbury's,

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Tesco or Waitrose, the prices haven't been capped for seven years.

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Nor have your rents, nor has your mortgage,

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And what is amazing, it's not just the 1 billion,

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or 1.5 billion that we've debated, the deal with the DUP.

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There are so many other things on which this government

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and previous governments waste extraordinary amounts of money.

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For instance, I'll just say the foreign aid budget,

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which I find quite incredible, ?17 billion.

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But one other thing, which is a ?56 billion white

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elephant called HS2, which is where we all need better

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broadband, and I understand that Hastings is an area that doesn't

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have the greatest rail service, so possibly I'm playing

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The man in blue with spectacles in the middle.

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I appreciate we're living through a time of great austerity,

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but I'm very concerned about recent changes to the benefit system.

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I tell you, I was made redundant a year ago,

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I've had 19 job interviews in a year.

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But a recent change to the benefit system means you now have to be

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unemployed for nine months, or 39 weeks, before you get any help

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I'm close to losing my home because of this.

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Zanny Minton Beddoes, back to the main question.

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I think the audience are raising incredibly important points

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which lead into what I think we should be doing and need to have

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as a country is a very serious conversation about about what kind

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of services we want, what we want to be paying people

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in the public sector, what that means in terms

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of spending, and how we are going to raise the tax

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We still have, Doctor Fox is right, a pretty big budget deficit.

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We are spending far more than we are bringing in.

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We are about to, because of Brexit, I'm afraid, have a hit

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in our economy which will mean less tax revenue.

:17:25.:17:27.

People are going to be poorer, and therefore there will

:17:28.:17:30.

It's perfectly reasonable that we may want to spend

:17:31.:17:33.

more on public services, but we're starting from

:17:34.:17:35.

So if we want to spend more, we need to raise more tax revenue.

:17:36.:17:40.

And Jeremy Corbyn, I'm afraid, is wrong to think that all of that

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tax revenue can come from corporations or the very rich.

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We have to have a proper, serious, grown-up conversation,

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as the lady in the back row said, about how much tax we as a society

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want to pay, and what kind of public services we want.

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We mentioned Brexit and I want to move on to Brexit.

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Which we've had many more questions about than anything.

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But just before I do, Question Time is going to be

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That's the last programme of the summer.

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We are going to be back in September.

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But if you want to come to Burton upon Trent,

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Andy Thomson, let's have your question, please.

:18:23.:18:27.

Why have 101 MPs this evening again gone against the will of the British

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people by voting to remain in the single market

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Stella Creasy was one of them.

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50, I think, Labour, and 50 other parties voting against,

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voting in favour of remaining in the single market.

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Let me be very clear, right, we are leaving the European Union.

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The question now is what is the best deal for Britain.

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And I voted against the Article 50 legislation.

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I voted tonight to make a point about the importance of having

:18:59.:19:01.

single market membership as part of the negotiations,

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for exactly the point that Zanny is talking about.

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Because the economic and social cost of these things

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And we need some honesty here about the choices

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And I worry about a government that before it has even begun

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the negotiations takes things off the table.

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So I want all of these options on the table.

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650,000 jobs in London alone are dependent on the single market.

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If we want a Brexit that is going to work for this

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country, we have to decide what we think is important.

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And I think people's livelihoods and being able to keep

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a roof above their heads, to know there is a job

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for them and their kids, is something we should prioritise.

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How do you leave the EU and remain in the customs union

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There are 101 different combinations that could happen.

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One of the things that is frustrating about this debate

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for the last nine months is that you have had Brexit means Brexit

:19:57.:19:59.

Different countries are part of the European Free Trade association.

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There are countries that are part of the customs union.

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The Prime Minister said she would like to be an associate

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It's a membership that doesn't even exist yet.

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At the moment this government is asking for the moon on a stick.

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And I want this country to be able to have some serious

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options to choose from, because the reality

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Now, I know that is going to be a difficult message for people,

:20:22.:20:26.

but I think you want politicians who are acting in what they think

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None of this is about repeating the referendum or undermining it.

:20:30.:20:33.

It's about saying what is in our best interests as a country.

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And I think that's the first thing you elect politicians to do.

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So, Liam Fox, 101 different combinations.

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Did you think that Stella Creasy and others were going

:20:47.:20:48.

against the will of the British people by voting to stay

:20:49.:20:51.

Let's face it, the people who say we want to stay

:20:52.:20:55.

in the single market, stay in the customs union,

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but we still respect the will of the British people,

:20:59.:21:00.

They tried to frustrate the will of the British people.

:21:01.:21:04.

The British people made very clear in the referendum,

:21:05.:21:08.

and then in the general election, incidentally.

:21:09.:21:10.

The Conservative Party said we will leave the single market.

:21:11.:21:16.

82% of voters voted for one of those parties that is going

:21:17.:21:19.

And I would say to those who are intent on thwarting

:21:20.:21:23.

what the British public voted for in the referendum, we voted

:21:24.:21:29.

to have control of our own laws, our borders and our money.

:21:30.:21:32.

That means not being under the influence of the European Court

:21:33.:21:35.

of Justice, not having complete free movement, as we have

:21:36.:21:37.

What don't you understand about democratic referendum,

:21:38.:21:43.

or binary, because that's what we voted for?

:21:44.:21:47.

That's not actually true about the Labour manifesto,

:21:48.:21:54.

but also, we've just had a general election.

:21:55.:21:57.

Your government asked for a thumping mandate for that approach,

:21:58.:21:59.

for that hard Brexit, come what may,

:22:00.:22:01.

The public said that's not what they want.

:22:02.:22:07.

If you're right about this issue, why did your party leader sack four

:22:08.:22:12.

shadow ministers tonight because they voted with you?

:22:13.:22:15.

I'm not going to pretend there's not a debate

:22:16.:22:17.

Actually, there are plenty on your side, Liam, who agree with us,

:22:18.:22:29.

that the government should be asking about all options, that you don't go

:22:30.:22:32.

into negotiations writing off two thirds of things.

:22:33.:22:35.

Not one Conservative joined you tonight.

:22:36.:22:36.

Not a single Conservative voted with you tonight.

:22:37.:22:38.

Liam, have some honesty with this audience.

:22:39.:22:40.

There are Conservatives who also agree that single market membership

:22:41.:22:42.

should be something that is part of the discussions.

:22:43.:22:44.

It doesn't mean it will happen but it does mean it is part

:22:45.:22:48.

Why are you cutting off our nose to spite our face?

:22:49.:22:51.

Let's bring in other members of the panel and the audience.

:22:52.:22:55.

There seems to be, both from you, Liam, and from the audience,

:22:56.:22:58.

As far as I remember, the referendum was about did

:22:59.:23:02.

It was not did we want to leave the single market, did

:23:03.:23:06.

we want to leave the customs union, and it so happens...

:23:07.:23:09.

It has been interpreted in the past year to be Brexit means

:23:10.:23:14.

Stella is right that the results of the election were not a thumping

:23:15.:23:18.

You can say, "Not", but if you look at opinion polls now,

:23:19.:23:26.

opinion polls seem to suggest that a majority of the British people

:23:27.:23:29.

actually want to stay in the customs union.

:23:30.:23:32.

Go and look at the Mail on Sunday opinion poll.

:23:33.:23:42.

Better if some of you speak than all of you shout.

:23:43.:23:45.

Who disagrees with what Zanny has just said?

:23:46.:23:47.

Let's hear from the woman on the right.

:23:48.:23:51.

What did you vote for when you voted?

:23:52.:23:53.

I didn't vote most recently because I didn't think

:23:54.:23:55.

For hundreds of years, this country has stood

:23:56.:24:01.

on its own and has been the best in the world for almost everything.

:24:02.:24:05.

We've joined up with others, and it's a load of rubbish.

:24:06.:24:08.

We should be back where we were, on our own.

:24:09.:24:15.

Anybody else want to take issue with what she said?

:24:16.:24:20.

I think there's a little addressed issue in society that

:24:21.:24:24.

there's this balance between freedom and responsibility.

:24:25.:24:26.

There is not only left and right in the world, obviously,

:24:27.:24:28.

because Brexit proved that, split down party lines.

:24:29.:24:31.

But there is this issue that people want to be free,

:24:32.:24:34.

and we voted by a slim majority, but we voted to be free from

:24:35.:24:39.

Anyone saying it's going to be terrible if we stay,

:24:40.:24:47.

or great if we stay, terrible if we leave,

:24:48.:24:49.

What about the 101 different combinations, as Stella Creasy says,

:24:50.:24:53.

And they should be available within the referendum of last year?

:24:54.:25:00.

We can't all vote on 101 different things.

:25:01.:25:04.

That's what the government's for, we delegate that to them.

:25:05.:25:07.

Nice for some of us, but hell for most of us.

:25:08.:25:09.

Stella says that 650,000 jobs in London depend on the EU.

:25:10.:25:13.

They are not going to go away just because we leave.

:25:14.:25:16.

And you say that we want to be isolationist.

:25:17.:25:18.

The share of the world GDP that the EU has is going down

:25:19.:25:26.

We want to look to the rest of the world.

:25:27.:25:32.

There's a big world out there, which we can be part of.

:25:33.:25:37.

And what do you think of remaining in the single or remaining

:25:38.:25:39.

I think we should come out of both of them.

:25:40.:25:43.

Just before we move on, to the gentleman there

:25:44.:25:46.

who has tried 19 times, I wish you the very best of luck

:25:47.:25:49.

and I hope somebody is watching tonight that gives you a go.

:25:50.:25:52.

That gentleman there who has lost his job and tried 19 jobs.

:25:53.:25:58.

By the way, I will write you a reference.

:25:59.:26:00.

I have known you for 20 years and you are the finest guy

:26:01.:26:03.

This is the reality of the situation.

:26:04.:26:08.

Would it be a good idea to perhaps pay some cash so we could get back

:26:09.:26:12.

Yes, possibly, but it is never going to happen.

:26:13.:26:15.

To bring up the point from the young man sitting over here,

:26:16.:26:21.

It is a big, brave, bold world out there.

:26:22.:26:24.

And I ask you in all honesty, as you look at the European Union

:26:25.:26:28.

at the moment, as you see where Greece is, where Italy's

:26:29.:26:30.

economy is, as you see where unemployment is in Spain

:26:31.:26:33.

and Portugal, would you want to now tie yourself to something like that

:26:34.:26:36.

which is past its prime and possibly like the old Soviet Union?

:26:37.:26:39.

And just finally, much as I respect Liam and I respect

:26:40.:26:47.

the whole front row, the rugby front row of our

:26:48.:26:49.

negotiators, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox,

:26:50.:26:52.

I can't help but think the person who should be doing

:26:53.:26:55.

the negotiations is Arlene Foster, because by God she got a good

:26:56.:26:58.

I think the audience have raised really good points.

:26:59.:27:07.

In fact, journalist Paul Mason wrote an incredible piece prior

:27:08.:27:09.

to the EU referendum which was about

:27:10.:27:11.

And the fact that you could even have a referendum where people

:27:12.:27:20.

who were never going to be responsible for delivering that

:27:21.:27:22.

Brexit, or that Remain, were allowed to make whatever

:27:23.:27:25.

promises they felt like on the day in order to get their victory,

:27:26.:27:29.

and never have to take accountability for the result.

:27:30.:27:35.

And I think there's a real case now, actually.

:27:36.:27:38.

We've got Brexit people in the audience and on the panel.

:27:39.:27:42.

And your main argument about Brexit and the fact that we should go

:27:43.:27:45.

ahead is that we had to have the democratic mandate.

:27:46.:27:48.

I agree with you, which is why I think there is a legitimate case

:27:49.:27:54.

for saying that when the Brexit deal comes back, we hold

:27:55.:27:56.

If, as our panel are saying, our MPs really have got the best

:27:57.:28:11.

interests of Britain at heart, rather than self-interest,

:28:12.:28:15.

then after the British people have had the opportunity to vote us

:28:16.:28:18.

in or out on Brexit, there should be a cross-party

:28:19.:28:21.

project for the good of the nation, to come together, so that then

:28:22.:28:25.

You are the man in waiting, in charge of negotiating deals

:28:26.:28:38.

with the rest of the world, as I understand it, once the main

:28:39.:28:41.

So presumably you are slightly hanging around.

:28:42.:28:46.

To answer your point, we have actually got a lot of work

:28:47.:28:55.

to do to prepare to leave the European Union, in terms

:28:56.:28:58.

of the agreements that we are party to as part of the European Union.

:28:59.:29:02.

We have to turn them into agreements for the United Kingdom outside.

:29:03.:29:06.

And the reason it's important, 90% of global growth in the next ten

:29:07.:29:09.

If we as a country want to generate the wealth that we will need

:29:10.:29:15.

for all those things that everybody wants in terms of spending

:29:16.:29:18.

on public services, that growth is going to come

:29:19.:29:23.

We need to access and get into those markets, outside the European Union.

:29:24.:29:28.

That's where growth is going to come.

:29:29.:29:29.

I'm sorry, let me just put a question.

:29:30.:29:35.

Are there any circumstances in which remaining in the single

:29:36.:29:41.

market or the customs union, the question asked,

:29:42.:29:43.

would appeal to you, you would find it a sensible course?

:29:44.:29:57.

Or is Brexit means Brexit? If we stay in the single market, we are

:29:58.:30:06.

subjected to the course, and if we stay in the customs union we can't

:30:07.:30:11.

negotiate our trade agreements as we are bounded by the common ex-tariff

:30:12.:30:18.

and then we are not able to work with developing countries... We will

:30:19.:30:24.

have both an economic and a moral mission to be able to make the best

:30:25.:30:28.

of the decision that the British people have given us. That

:30:29.:30:32.

opportunity is taking advantages of those big markets that are out there

:30:33.:30:38.

for our future prosperity. Stella Creasy? I want, I think this

:30:39.:30:45.

is great rhetoric, But can I add reality to the great new world we

:30:46.:30:51.

are going to conquer. Yes, there are growing economies growing faster

:30:52.:30:59.

outside of the Europe. 61% of the countries have a union with the

:31:00.:31:04.

trade deals. 61% of our trade is with either the

:31:05.:31:09.

European Union or with countries with which the European Union has a

:31:10.:31:13.

free trade, so we have free trade with those countries, the rest is

:31:14.:31:17.

divided half to the United States and half to other countries. The

:31:18.:31:21.

United States we may get a free trade deal but tariffs are low. The

:31:22.:31:26.

US would want access to agriculture markets, what we want is greater

:31:27.:31:31.

access for services. I think more free trade is great. But it means

:31:32.:31:37.

that the British people, having hormone beef, chlorine washed

:31:38.:31:41.

chicken, yes, it does as that is what the Americans want. And the

:31:42.:31:47.

other thing, Liam, as you know well, the Americans will not negotiate

:31:48.:31:49.

with you until they know the relationship that you have the rest

:31:50.:31:54.

of the European Union and ditto with the other emerging economies. And a

:31:55.:32:00.

fact, if the trade with the EU decreases by 5% you have to increase

:32:01.:32:05.

trade with the 10 biggest Commonwealth economies by more than

:32:06.:32:10.

30%. So a tiny decline in trade. How would you go along with it? Stay

:32:11.:32:18.

in the customs union. Can you put your hand on heart and say staying

:32:19.:32:25.

in the customs union and single market accords with the wishes of

:32:26.:32:30.

the 52% of the British people who wanted to remain? Yes. There will be

:32:31.:32:36.

changes to the way that Britain has a relationship with the European

:32:37.:32:39.

Union but it is a negotiation that should not exclude the sensible

:32:40.:32:43.

approach, to have all options on the table.

:32:44.:32:48.

But we have to leave. We have been told to leave by the people. We have

:32:49.:32:52.

been given an instruction. If we stay in the single market we are

:32:53.:32:57.

still in the European Union to all intents and purposes.

:32:58.:33:01.

Stella, I come to you. The woman up there, the second row

:33:02.:33:07.

from the back? I would trust what Zanny says as she works for the the

:33:08.:33:16.

The Economist, so I think we should listen to her.

:33:17.:33:21.

And the woman in the front? Thank you. We have, we are close to

:33:22.:33:29.

Europe, there is 300 million people, how are we going to, with the rest

:33:30.:33:33.

of the world, Australia has a population of about 23 million,

:33:34.:33:41.

Norway about 5 million, Canada 40-odd million, and someone said

:33:42.:33:45.

well, India has a huge population but there are not that many rich

:33:46.:33:52.

people in India, why reject the 300 million people on our doorstep? We

:33:53.:33:59.

are not rejecting the people... This is, we are not rejecting Europe.

:34:00.:34:06.

Correction, not rejecting. We want an open and liberal trade

:34:07.:34:11.

agreement with the European Union. But there are very, very big markets

:34:12.:34:15.

out there that we can take advantage of. As for the US are not having

:34:16.:34:22.

talks, we are beginning discussions on the 24th of July, next month.

:34:23.:34:29.

I want to go on. There are many other questions yes? This debate

:34:30.:34:35.

proves why you need more Parliamentally scrutiny. Liam is not

:34:36.:34:41.

levelling, whoever we trade with, we will have to abuy bide by their

:34:42.:34:45.

regulations. You need to know the options. What I and the others who

:34:46.:34:50.

are concerned about walking away from the single market membership,

:34:51.:34:55.

it is not just the tariffs but the standards, your employment rights,

:34:56.:34:59.

environmental standards, we can look at the deal without compromising the

:35:00.:35:02.

commitment that the referendum has had. Believe me, I don't want to run

:35:03.:35:08.

the referendum again. But I do want what is in the best interests of the

:35:09.:35:12.

country. I want the British public to know that the politicians have

:35:13.:35:17.

done a proper job of scrutinising the options so that we have the best

:35:18.:35:22.

deal. I can't tell you hand on heart that is what is happening now.

:35:23.:35:34.

Keith Piggot, please? The horror of Grenfell Tower became politicised

:35:35.:35:38.

during the PM's Question Time, do the panel think that Parliament

:35:39.:35:45.

should adopt Theresa May's collect Ian's guilt approach to resolve or

:35:46.:35:50.

Jeremy Corbyn's austerity point-scoring? As you know there was

:35:51.:35:58.

a division of opinion in the House of Commons. Nick Ferrari? I thought

:35:59.:36:06.

that was one of the lowest moments in Prime Minister's Questions I have

:36:07.:36:09.

seen for some time. There are people as we speak, who don't know where

:36:10.:36:13.

loved ones are, who don't know where their families are. Incredibly

:36:14.:36:20.

diligent men and women wading through, I apologise for this but up

:36:21.:36:25.

to three feet of broken appliances, ash, goodness knows what else, to

:36:26.:36:29.

see the leader of the political party to score a cheap point over

:36:30.:36:36.

that, I thought was reprehensible. Beaten by your Shadow Chancellor,

:36:37.:36:43.

John McDonald, suggesting irresponsible, and incorrectly, it

:36:44.:36:46.

could be illegally, that they were murdered by political decisions.

:36:47.:36:49.

There is a time... There is a time...

:36:50.:36:54.

APPLAUSE There is a time for able

:36:55.:37:00.

politicians, such as Stella and Liam and the colleagues to debate this

:37:01.:37:05.

but while the brave men and women are searching for fragments of bone

:37:06.:37:08.

or teeth, this is not the time to get political about it.

:37:09.:37:17.

What I think is more reprehensible than your point is that it has taken

:37:18.:37:23.

a tragedy like Grenfell Tower to even race the issue. No-one was

:37:24.:37:27.

speaking about it before. Why shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn bring it up?

:37:28.:37:31.

There will be a time to answer you, sir. I hope that there is a sea

:37:32.:37:40.

change as to how the Hillsborough challenge was run, I hope that there

:37:41.:37:45.

is sea change movement, I really do. But there are no party political

:37:46.:37:49.

points to score. I don't want to do this, you can see that you can track

:37:50.:37:55.

legislation to Tony Blair, to the coalition government, no one party

:37:56.:37:58.

emerges with any credit here, so they should not be playing this

:37:59.:37:59.

game. APPLAUSE

:38:00.:38:14.

You know what I think is reprehensible, I think it is

:38:15.:38:18.

reprehensible and disgusting, that the reason that building was wrapped

:38:19.:38:23.

in combustible cladding is because of the poverty of the people living

:38:24.:38:30.

in that tower block was offensive enough to hide behind combustible

:38:31.:38:36.

cladding... And I make no apology for saying it.

:38:37.:38:39.

Well it is wrong, you have to, actually. This is not about party

:38:40.:38:45.

politics, this is about, what it is about is saying there were a chain

:38:46.:38:50.

of events that led to this fire that have to be analysed, and questions

:38:51.:38:54.

have to be asked and answered openly. It is not me saying that, it

:38:55.:38:59.

is not Jeremy Corbyn saying that, it is the survivors of this disaster.

:39:00.:39:05.

It is the residents of that tower who wrote in 2014, saying that they

:39:06.:39:11.

believed this was a fire risk. They wrote in March of this year.

:39:12.:39:16.

They said it would take a catastrophic event for our concerns

:39:17.:39:22.

to be listened to. And tragically, that proved true because those

:39:23.:39:26.

people, because they were poor, because they were immigrants... No.

:39:27.:39:32.

No. You cannot say that. They were ignored. I guarantee if they were

:39:33.:39:40.

the richer residents of Chelsea making that complaint... There was a

:39:41.:39:47.

Fire Brigades Union stadium, they play where there is this cladding.

:39:48.:39:52.

There are hotels, ?200 a night, they have this cladding. You have to let

:39:53.:39:56.

the inquiry take its course. You must.

:39:57.:40:04.

In 2009, six people were killed in a tower block fire in Southwark. The

:40:05.:40:10.

coroner said in 2013 that the cladding was to blame and that all

:40:11.:40:15.

tower blocks should be retro fitted with sprinklers, the government did

:40:16.:40:19.

not provide the resources, they sent a letter, it was not compulsory,

:40:20.:40:24.

they had the choice. David Cameron had the bonfire of building

:40:25.:40:28.

regulations, and he boasted that. Liam Fox? Like a lot of people who

:40:29.:40:35.

have worked for the Emergency Services, this fire brought back a

:40:36.:40:40.

lot of unpleasant memories for me. I was a junior doctor, there was a

:40:41.:40:46.

fire, you may remember it, David, the so-called Ice Cream Wars, people

:40:47.:40:52.

holding their children in their arms in a baricated flat block and people

:40:53.:40:56.

died in that. For me it brought back unpleasant memories of that. There

:40:57.:41:03.

will be a time to ask a lot of these questions but there is still a great

:41:04.:41:08.

deal of suffering going on. People have had their lives ruined. People

:41:09.:41:12.

have had their families, they will never be together again. We need to

:41:13.:41:16.

conduct the debate with a little bit of respect for them. Politicising it

:41:17.:41:22.

is deeply tasteless and it is offensive. I could not agree more

:41:23.:41:30.

but can I say... I think there has been a public possibility failure

:41:31.:41:34.

for decades. We have to come to terms with that. It has come at a

:41:35.:41:40.

lot of levels, at government, inspection, building, at local

:41:41.:41:43.

authority level, and we would be wise now to let the inquiry take its

:41:44.:41:50.

course, stop pointing fingers and remember this is essentially still a

:41:51.:41:57.

dreadful, dreadful human tragedy that we're witnessing.

:41:58.:42:02.

Stella Creasy, what Corbyn said in the House of Commons is that the

:42:03.:42:06.

fire was the result of disastrous effects of austerity, of a price

:42:07.:42:11.

paid in public safety, the terrible consequences of deregulation,

:42:12.:42:16.

cutting corners that stem from a disregard for working-class

:42:17.:42:18.

communities. Do you endorse that view? I am mindful if my community

:42:19.:42:25.

in Walthamstow that there are people in blocks that have cladding that is

:42:26.:42:29.

being investigated. So I agree we have to choose our words carefully.

:42:30.:42:34.

I am concerned by what we have seen by the judge in the encary, who has

:42:35.:42:39.

said he doesn't think he can satisfy the concerns of the green fell

:42:40.:42:44.

residents in terms of what he can look at. He is looking at the fire

:42:45.:42:48.

and what happened after. Absolutely, there is a time and a place for

:42:49.:42:52.

those discussions. If there is one thing we have learned from

:42:53.:42:57.

Hillsborough, if you are looking for both truth and accountability,

:42:58.:43:00.

transparency matters. It does look like there is increasing concern

:43:01.:43:04.

about building regulations. We don't know which way it goes. We know

:43:05.:43:08.

looking at whether or not the building regulations in this country

:43:09.:43:12.

have been applied or been too flexible or not enforced, it is a

:43:13.:43:15.

question to be answered. Was your leader right to say it was

:43:16.:43:21.

a disregard for working class communities and the disastrous

:43:22.:43:23.

effects that caused this fire. Right or wrong to say in the House of

:43:24.:43:29.

Commons? I don't agree with the way in which he put it, I do agree that

:43:30.:43:35.

the inquiry should look at a wider range of issues. All of us, you can

:43:36.:43:39.

hear the heat in the audience, you can hear the concern. I understand

:43:40.:43:46.

where Jeremy was coming from in being concerned, and all of us must

:43:47.:43:50.

channel our anger into what is the best thing for those people worried

:43:51.:43:55.

about the cladding around them it is right to have proper investigation.

:43:56.:43:59.

And I would like the public advocate process fast tracked. Having the

:44:00.:44:04.

voices of the residents, the victims, front and centre, why are

:44:05.:44:08.

they not able to negotiate with the judge about his remit? That they

:44:09.:44:12.

have not, the worry is that the questions may not get looked at. We

:44:13.:44:18.

all want a proper and independent investigation as to what happened.

:44:19.:44:25.

Zanny Minton Beddoes? We need a proper investigation, that is

:44:26.:44:31.

transparent but also speedy. Part of the problem with public enquiries is

:44:32.:44:36.

that they go on. It is incredibly emotional issue. It is a terrible,

:44:37.:44:40.

terrible tragedy. Is it right it should abpolitical

:44:41.:44:46.

issue? No, I think that Jeremy Corbyn was utterly wrong to say

:44:47.:44:49.

that. I think it was both inaccurate and

:44:50.:44:55.

unhelpful and importantly unful helpful as adding to the emotion

:44:56.:45:01.

make it is less likely we have the speedy transparent inquiry we must

:45:02.:45:05.

have. And it can happen. There was a terrible fire in Clint.

:45:06.:45:09.

There was a quick an sips of what needed to happen with building are

:45:10.:45:12.

laces and enforcement and things changed fast.

:45:13.:45:26.

We need that, but we also need to have, frankly, a broader look.

:45:27.:45:29.

And this is where I think austerity here is not irrelevant

:45:30.:45:31.

But there is a broader problem with the housing

:45:32.:45:35.

stock in this country, that this is partly a reflection of.

:45:36.:45:37.

And we need to have a debate on that.

:45:38.:45:39.

The inquiry isn't going to have that.

:45:40.:45:41.

The inquiry needs to look at building regulations

:45:42.:45:43.

and what caused the fire, how it spread, what can be done

:45:44.:45:46.

as quickly to improve things as possible.

:45:47.:45:48.

But beyond that, we need a broader debate as a country.

:45:49.:45:50.

Building regulations isn't part of the inquiry at the moment,

:45:51.:45:53.

and I think that's the concern that many of us have, that that

:45:54.:45:56.

ought to be something we are looking at now.

:45:57.:45:58.

This is a collection of 600 Victorian cuttings

:45:59.:46:02.

The first cuttings says how to keep fire away from people and how

:46:03.:46:06.

They are never learned, they are just forgotten.

:46:07.:46:11.

And that has happened in this case, for decades, by all parties.

:46:12.:46:13.

What will be done to make sure that the government,

:46:14.:46:28.

whoever it may be, will listen to this public enquiry and make sure

:46:29.:46:31.

that they do the recommendations, that it goes into legislation?

:46:32.:46:34.

You think the enquiry may just be published and nothing happens.

:46:35.:46:36.

That's a very relevant point, but sort of revisiting something I said.

:46:37.:46:43.

Tragically, every now and again, something comes along

:46:44.:46:46.

that just sears its way into our consciousness,

:46:47.:46:49.

We've got to be careful what we say because that's been

:46:50.:46:54.

a momentous week for that, or the King's Cross fire,

:46:55.:46:56.

And it causes massive change, because it is the will of the people

:46:57.:47:01.

and the politicians know there has to be change.

:47:02.:47:06.

I'm telling you now, in two or three years,

:47:07.:47:10.

there won't be cladding on any of these hotels, any of these

:47:11.:47:13.

hospitals, any of these schools, any of these apartment blocks,

:47:14.:47:15.

and Britain will be a bloody better place for it.

:47:16.:47:18.

Can we also as a country end the critique

:47:19.:47:24.

of health and safety, because this government boasted

:47:25.:47:26.

about having a one in, two out approach to regulation.

:47:27.:47:28.

If we are learning anything, actually regulations about health

:47:29.:47:36.

If one of the things that comes out of this is a recognition that health

:47:37.:47:40.

and safety is there exactly for those reasons, that's

:47:41.:47:42.

You raised the point about legislation is very key.

:47:43.:47:51.

But you can legislate, and you can have regulations all you like.

:47:52.:47:54.

We have to make sure they are implemented.

:47:55.:47:56.

Politicians, we can pass laws, but if they are not being

:47:57.:48:00.

implemented on the ground, if there is not a mechanism

:48:01.:48:03.

to ensure that they are being implemented, then

:48:04.:48:05.

Part of the reason that enforcement isn't taking place

:48:06.:48:14.

is because of cuts to local government funding of 40%.

:48:15.:48:16.

If you're not paying for the inspectors to enforce

:48:17.:48:21.

the legislation, then there's a problem.

:48:22.:48:24.

I just wanted to say that we need to move from the disgrace

:48:25.:48:34.

of the current situation to amazing grace.

:48:35.:48:37.

Let's take politics out of social housing, and boost our economy

:48:38.:48:43.

through social infrastructure, and build more social housing.

:48:44.:48:46.

We've got a few minutes left, eight or so minutes.

:48:47.:48:59.

Do the mainstream media still serve any useful purpose?

:49:00.:49:04.

We have the founder of the Canary, which is I imagine not mainstream

:49:05.:49:13.

media of the kind you are talking about, newspapers and television.

:49:14.:49:18.

Newspapers primarily, yes, but TV, radio...

:49:19.:49:21.

Frankly, I don't think you would be in the audience or we would be

:49:22.:49:30.

on the panel if there was no purpose to the exchanges that we are having.

:49:31.:49:34.

I think we need to get as much public discourse as possible.

:49:35.:49:41.

Perhaps we need to look at the formats that we have,

:49:42.:49:45.

in terms of whether they are interesting to young voters,

:49:46.:49:48.

whether we are creative enough in the way that we get

:49:49.:49:51.

But the more that we can get information, the more we can get

:49:52.:49:56.

people involved in the political process and public policy

:49:57.:49:59.

I think the media does need to innovate, but the other thing

:50:00.:50:04.

that we require a free media for is a counterbalance

:50:05.:50:07.

We need a media that is able to say things that politicians don't like,

:50:08.:50:14.

there needs to be an ability for people to express views we don't

:50:15.:50:17.

That is how you keep a free and open society,

:50:18.:50:24.

and that, hopefully, is the legacy we would want

:50:25.:50:27.

Kerry-Anne Mendoza, you founded the Canary,

:50:28.:50:33.

Do mainstream media serve any useful purpose, or do young people,

:50:34.:50:43.

younger voters, look to people like you for their information?

:50:44.:50:47.

I would disagree with Liam's analysis about format.

:50:48.:50:50.

The issue is a painful lack of diversity in our mainstream media.

:50:51.:50:56.

And it's a lack of diversity on several levels.

:50:57.:51:04.

First, you have a lack of diversity in terms of ownership.

:51:05.:51:07.

80% of our media is owned by six corporations.

:51:08.:51:09.

But that lack of diversity then permeates into the newsrooms.

:51:10.:51:17.

So the whole path into journalism these days

:51:18.:51:20.

is you basically go to a handful of universities, maybe six.

:51:21.:51:23.

And then you do an unpaid internship, probably

:51:24.:51:25.

There was a study that came out yesterday.

:51:26.:51:32.

51% of our journalists were public school educated.

:51:33.:51:37.

Compared to 7% of the population at large.

:51:38.:51:40.

So what you end up with is a mostly white, mostly male,

:51:41.:51:43.

mostly middle-class media, based mostly in London.

:51:44.:51:45.

And the problem with that is that that narrow slice of humanity

:51:46.:51:56.

And this isn't about people being evil or being cruel.

:51:57.:52:04.

It's just simply, it shouldn't be a controversial point to say

:52:05.:52:07.

that the newsrooms of the British media should look and sound

:52:08.:52:10.

like the modern Britain in which they sit.

:52:11.:52:12.

That should not be a controversial point.

:52:13.:52:15.

It will be an unpalatable fact for you but the reality

:52:16.:52:20.

is that the people who were involved in the brutal racist killing

:52:21.:52:23.

of Stephen Lawrence would not be behind bars without the power

:52:24.:52:26.

And the editor took a great risk and could have

:52:27.:52:30.

The other thing is, of course we talk about young people.

:52:31.:52:34.

Actually, I have been in and around the newspaper

:52:35.:52:36.

I have a television show, I'm on the radio and I write

:52:37.:52:42.

a column for the Sunday express, so I cover the whole damn lot.

:52:43.:52:45.

Never has the mainstream media been more important.

:52:46.:52:47.

Because while I respect what people like them are doing and it's great

:52:48.:52:50.

and it gets kids involved, which is fantastic, don't

:52:51.:52:52.

forget that when you go to these sort of utterings,

:52:53.:52:55.

which at many times are like the mad ramblings of a man on the top deck

:52:56.:52:59.

of the bus speaking into his hand, they have no journalistic

:53:00.:53:01.

Which is why we heard that the Pope was endorsing Donald Trump.

:53:02.:53:06.

So that is why we need to give journalists,

:53:07.:53:08.

like the people who work on this show, on Question Time,

:53:09.:53:11.

who work on my radio show on LBC, because when you hear it from us,

:53:12.:53:15.

it will be true, or to the best of our endeavours it will be true.

:53:16.:53:18.

Firstly, you want to talk about facts.

:53:19.:53:25.

Firstly, our readership isn't predominantly young.

:53:26.:53:26.

Our readership is predominantly 25 to 50.

:53:27.:53:28.

I was addressing that man's question.

:53:29.:53:30.

We range from 20 through to our most veteran reporter

:53:31.:53:38.

who was a journalist in traditional media before I was even born.

:53:39.:53:41.

We are diverse ethnically, in terms of religion, Jewish,

:53:42.:53:44.

The idea that you can work for a station that

:53:45.:53:50.

You know, Nick, just this week a Muslim man was beaten

:53:51.:54:02.

to within an inch of his life, and the people painted

:54:03.:54:07.

So when we are talking about journalistic responsibility,

:54:08.:54:13.

I think we need to look at the mainstream media

:54:14.:54:15.

As a younger voter, I think that you can bleat

:54:16.:54:26.

on about different types of media, but the media report what they see.

:54:27.:54:29.

And frankly, our politicians' behaviour is such a turn-off.

:54:30.:54:34.

Both sides are point-scoring cheaply, and we had

:54:35.:54:38.

the Conservatives jeering and cheering when they voted down

:54:39.:54:43.

You can blame the different types of media for young

:54:44.:54:57.

voters not engaging, they can only report what they see.

:54:58.:55:01.

Actually, it's the behaviour of the politicians that turns us off.

:55:02.:55:04.

Zanny Minton Beddoes, as the editor of a long

:55:05.:55:06.

Very long established, and independent, I must say,

:55:07.:55:13.

Do mainstream media serve any purpose?

:55:14.:55:16.

I think there's a hunger for real news, for good analysis out there,

:55:17.:55:25.

as much among young people as older people.

:55:26.:55:27.

You have to reach people in the way that they want

:55:28.:55:30.

We reach lots of people through Facebook, through Twitter,

:55:31.:55:34.

through Snapchat, one of our biggest recent successes.

:55:35.:55:37.

You can't keep doing exactly the same as you did,

:55:38.:55:39.

but the people really value authoritative,

:55:40.:55:42.

I think it's great to have lots of voices.

:55:43.:55:51.

I think in this country, and I spent most of my career

:55:52.:55:54.

outside this country, interesting coming back how

:55:55.:55:56.

the press is dominated by a few publications.

:55:57.:55:59.

There has been an incredible power there.

:56:00.:56:03.

But that is waning, because if you look at this election

:56:04.:56:05.

result, in some sense it's a damning indictment of the power of the Daily

:56:06.:56:09.

Stella Creasy, do you think it was social media that built up

:56:10.:56:15.

Oh, look, 60% of people under 30 get their news from Facebook.

:56:16.:56:23.

Clearly, the way in which people are consuming news has changed.

:56:24.:56:26.

I think in a healthy democracy you need both news and analysis,

:56:27.:56:29.

but you need to be able to tell the difference between both.

:56:30.:56:33.

And frankly, whether it is offline or online, I think you need to have

:56:34.:56:36.

So I agree that we need to look again.

:56:37.:56:40.

We have traditionally separated broadcast and print.

:56:41.:56:44.

Our print media doesn't have the same impartiality.

:56:45.:56:46.

I think you would not say the Daily Mail was impartial.

:56:47.:56:50.

What I worry about is, I do have younger people

:56:51.:56:58.

in my community coming to me who are very critical of official

:56:59.:57:01.

sources of information and will then send me links from Russia Today

:57:02.:57:04.

I want us to be able to have a debate about sources,

:57:05.:57:09.

because I think all of you should be open to the scrutiny

:57:10.:57:11.

about what is your evidence base for the claims you are making.

:57:12.:57:14.

And I do think the new media model...

:57:15.:57:16.

Briefly, the man who asked the question.

:57:17.:57:34.

I would just like to state that today earlier on social media I put

:57:35.:57:38.

this question out with particular focus to newspapers.

:57:39.:57:41.

I had about 20 of my friends respond.

:57:42.:57:45.

Not one of them, from the age of in their 20s through to their 50s,

:57:46.:57:49.

It's all through the internet and social media.

:57:50.:57:55.

Next week, Question Time is going to be in Burton upon Trent,

:57:56.:58:02.

the last programme before the summer break.

:58:03.:58:04.

We are back on September the 14th with a programme

:58:05.:58:06.

If you want to be in the audience there in Burton upon Trent,

:58:07.:58:11.

or Stratford, if you can remember it on September the 14th,

:58:12.:58:14.

That's the best way, probably, or ring us.

:58:15.:58:18.

If you've been listening on five live, Question Time Extra

:58:19.:58:23.

Time follows and goes on until the early hours.

:58:24.:58:25.

My thanks to our panellists and to all of you who came

:58:26.:58:31.

Until next Thursday from Question Time, good night.

:58:32.:59:13.

We're not going to get out of this one, are we?

:59:14.:59:16.

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Hastings. On the panel are Conservative international trade secretary Liam Fox, Labour MP Stella Creasy, editor-in-chief of The Economist Zanny Minton Beddoes, founder and editor of left-wing news site The Canary Kerry-Anne Mendoza, and LBC radio host Nick Ferrari.


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