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Tonight we're in Hastings, and welcome to Question | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
On our panel tonight one of the three Brexiteers, the Conservative | :00:07. | :00:22. | |
International Trade Secretary, Liam Fox. | :00:23. | :00:24. | |
Stella Creasy, the Labour MP, who today | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
forced the Government to agree free abortions | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
in Britain for women from | :00:35. | :00:35. | |
The Editor-in-Chief of the The Economist, | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
The founder and editor of the left-wing news website | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
host who teaches politicians to count, Nick Ferrari. | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
Rememeber at home using Twitter, Facebook or text. | :00:49. | :01:15. | |
The first question from Marianne Smith, please. | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
Is it right that ten DUP votes have been | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
bought by the Government when | :01:22. | :01:22. | |
Mrs May told a nurse that there was no magic money tree? | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
So, she actually said that here on | :01:26. | :01:37. | |
Question Time to a nurse when she was on the programme before the | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
"There isn't a magic money tree that we can shake that | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
suddenly provides for everything that people want." | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
after the election had no overall majority. | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
That's what's required by our constitution and that's what | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
The DUP share a lot of common elements with the | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
Conservative Party, on things like the union, | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
believing in the union of | :02:06. | :02:06. | |
They support our Brexit deal, they support our | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
proposals we have with dealing with extremism. | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
They are very important elements going forward. | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
It's the billion pounds she's talking about. | :02:15. | :02:15. | |
What of course we, it's the MPs from the DUP, clearly, | :02:16. | :02:28. | |
they wanted to get better funding for Northern Ireland and things like | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
infrastructure and who can blame them. | :02:32. | :02:32. | |
They've got an influence that they didn't have before and that's | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
But there is something that was different | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
about Northern Ireland, if | :02:39. | :02:39. | |
you look at the city deals done in England, | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
there were over nearly over ?3.2 billion worth | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
In Scotland three-quarters of billion | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
of city deals done, in Wales half a billion. | :02:50. | :02:51. | |
They weren't getting any of the benefit | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
of that programme that the | :02:55. | :02:55. | |
So to get the funding that it deserves, Theresa May | :02:56. | :03:04. | |
has to depend on them to stay in power? | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
No, but the funding has been allocated for a number of specific | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
Mental health is one of them, clearly. | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
The facilities in Northern Ireland should be better | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
but also Northern Ireland's infrastructure in terms of its | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
economy, has a number of deficiencies. | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
Northern Ireland in terms of exports is the lowest | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
exporting part of the United Kingdom. | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
We were told two weeks ago there wasn't any? | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
The money will come from the Treasury, it will have to come | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
from within the existing programmes that we have. | :03:37. | :03:37. | |
So there is a money tree, you just shake it? | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
But we do have programmes that need to be funded. | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
Remember this money does not go to the DUP, this money | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
goes to the Government of Northern Ireland itself. | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
But it is money that is found when you needed to find a | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
It's not money that was sitting there that nobody | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
There are lots of places in this in this country that could do with a | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
I'm interestedin how you started this answer, you said that | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
the Government had a duty to form a government. | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
It didn't have a duty to do a grubby deal. | :04:19. | :04:20. | |
It could have perfectly well functioned as a | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
We have had minority governments before, | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
although, they tend to be quite weak ones but it's not at all clear to me | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
that this deal which not own is frankly, a grubby bribe of a billion | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
that this deal which not only is frankly, | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
pounds, it also makes the whole peace process somewhat harder. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
I would say that it makes Brexit more | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
In this case to paraphrase someone, no deal might have | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
The question was, was it right, and it was right and it | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
It was wrong because it was shabby but it's what politicians | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
sometimes do, and politicians of all colours. | :04:59. | :04:59. | |
We can look in the past at Labour, how they, when they were in | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
power they channelled vast sums of money to | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
northern cities such as | :05:06. | :05:06. | |
Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, where they have the core vote, so in a way | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
it is the same sort of thing it is equally shabby. | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
It shouldn't have been done but it was done. | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
How can you possibly equate investing in the regeneraling | :05:15. | :05:34. | |
of much needed regeneraling ration of towns and cities across | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
the land with a grubby little deal that Theresa May made simply to | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
Where I believe it was a good thing, that given what | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
we have seen as utterances of Jeremy Corbyn and from the Shadow | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
Chancellor, John McDonald, a couple of weeks ago or so. | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
prospect of having Jeremy Corbyn as our | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
Prime Minister, as I would of as | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
going for a Sunday drive with Richard Hammond, so I'm rather | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
pleased that they have done the deal. | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
We can talk about the mechanics of what's happening in | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
Parliament and the fact it basically equates | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
to every single DUP, MP, | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
being worth ?1 million, but actually what matters here is that this | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
country hasn't had a pay rise for ten years. | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
People, I see it in my surgery, in my constituency every day, people | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
for whom there is far too much month left | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
at the end of their money and | :06:28. | :06:28. | |
And I'm talking to schools where teachers are | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
My local hospital has a nurses shortage. | :06:32. | :06:43. | |
Our public sector workers, those firemen, those policemen that kept | :06:44. | :06:45. | |
us safe, who ran into burning building buildings. | :06:46. | :06:47. | |
And yesterday, Some of them might have turned on | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
the news halfway through the day and thought finally, somebody is | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
listening, so what a cruel, horrible moment it was, | :06:53. | :06:54. | |
when the Government voted down our attempt, to say, you | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
know what, there is agreement across this House that these people deserve | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
a pay rise, let's do something about it. | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
To come back to Marianne's question, we all | :07:02. | :07:11. | |
watched that nurse plead with Theresa May, plead with her, | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
that she hadn't had a pay rise for ten | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
years and she needed a break and the Prime | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
Minister looked her square in | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
the eye and said there was no magic money tree and when the British | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
public refused to give Theresa May a majority, | :07:23. | :07:32. | |
the first thing she did with that majority that she bought with ?1.5 | :07:33. | :07:42. | |
She said to that nurse, she said to the police | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
that ran into the Manchester concert bombing and the terrorist attacks on | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
London and she said to the firefighters that ran up 20 | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives, | :07:52. | :07:52. | |
storeys in Grenfell Tower, to save lives - | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
I can't believe Liam Fox mentioned security in connection | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
The Tory Party tried to smear Corbyn with his connection | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
with attempting to create a peace deal in Northern Ireland and now you | :08:05. | :08:15. | |
have gone into cruelly with actual terrorist sympathisers who have | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
I think it is incredible, especially from Labour, | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
that they are not recognising, as Nigel Dodds said, Labour | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
tried to do a deal in 2015 and 2010 and also the SNP tried to do a deal | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocracy from everybody. | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
with the DUP so I feel like it's a bit of hypocrisy from everybody. | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
Liam Fox, do you want to come back on the money point? | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
It's a very good point, a point I was going to make, that | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
Stella did not mention about the confidence | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
Liam, do you think I would have voted | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
to go into coalition with the | :08:55. | :08:55. | |
people I've just been fighting about abortion rights with? | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
You tried to go into coalition with them in 2010. | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
Gordon Brown tried to stay in power by doing | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
2010, so let's have none of this high mind stuff. | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
Can I ask you, one question is, did you really need to do this? | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
It seems hard to believe that the DUP, when push came | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
to shove, would vote against you if it meant that | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
Jeremy Corbyn would be in power, given his relationship | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
I think you have a view that your good negotiators, | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
I think you have a view that you're good negotiators, | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
with the crack negotiating team, it strikes me | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
that in this area it was | :09:29. | :09:30. | |
Mr Fox, you can't explain that the deal with the DUP is to improve | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
infrastructure, this is really just a employ to get into power. | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
infrastructure, this is really just a ploy to get into power. | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
Should MPs receive a wage freeze and cap on expenses in this time of | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
And I think, Stella Creasy, I'm right in saying you got a 10% pay | :09:54. | :10:06. | |
Yes, I and opposed it, and I donated and I have donated it | :10:07. | :10:15. | |
Yes, I and opposed it, and I have donated it | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
towards the cost in my office of having more casework staff to be | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
able to respond to the need of my local community because I won't | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
I think that if we're going to ask the public sector to | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
continue with pay restraint we will have to do the same. | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
I don't think there will be an option. | :10:33. | :10:33. | |
We had that correction back in 2015, I think | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
that the public found that hard to swallow. | :10:37. | :10:38. | |
I think if we got that correction and we are going to have to impose | :10:39. | :10:51. | |
continued restraint on public sector, we are going to have to lead | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
Would you like to see the pay cap ended? | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
I think we need to look at the control of public | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
We have a balance here to strike between our duty to remunerate those | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
who work in the public sector and also to look | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
after the interests of | :11:07. | :11:07. | |
the taxpayers who pay the wages for those in the public sector. | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
I think that we've got a number of public | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
pay review bodies coming forward, that's the appropriate place to look | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
But we need to remember that when we're talking about our | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
public spending, we are spending as a country | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
debt interest, for which we get nothing at all. | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
And that's because of the debts we've run up in the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
past and the interest that's accrued on the debts. | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
We've got to get to a point where we stop doing that and | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
what people call austerity is actually living within your means. | :11:38. | :11:39. | |
Hang on, you know the pressure there is. | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
You know the pressure there is on the 1% pay cap. | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
You opposed it when Labour put up, are you saying there | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
will not be any change and there should not be any | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
change in that policy, or are you saying wait for | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
Maybe the Chancellor will find her way around it. | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
The Chancellor has made clear that we will look at the pay review | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
bodies for the groups such as the nurses | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
that we will look at and as | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
But the idea that the country can spend money that it doesn't have and | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
simply leave the debt to the next generation is simply not acceptable. | :12:19. | :12:30. | |
I have to say, this is high hypocracy indeed from the man who | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
submitted an expenses claim for three pence for driving 100m, | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
and frankly I'm surprised to see you | :12:38. | :12:38. | |
I thought your best friend Adam Werritty might | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
replace you which he did when you were Secretary Of Defense and was | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
also, put up, I believe, in an apartment in London as taxpayer's | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
expense, that's paid for by you, and you were later forced to return | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
that you can sit here and talk about those terms with | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
a straight face and tell these people, talk about terms of | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
austerity, restraint, and living within your own means, when you were | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
quite happy to subordinate those in your own interests. | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
Can I just say, that you know we are here to have a debate, | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
I think people here would like to have a real debate about the real | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
I would like to debate with Liam, because you're talking Liam, like | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
you haven't been in government responsible for our economy for the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
last seven years, and you're talking like your government doesn't have | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
I agree, I want to get the debt down, because every pound we're | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
paying in interest is money we're paying to bankers, | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
rather than putting into | :13:36. | :13:36. | |
That's why I get frustrated when I see your | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
government wasting money on things like the bedroom tax, which costs | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
more than it saves, on things like the contract to the DWP and | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
the person-to-person payments and you wasted ?3 million. | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
Your government has promised every single | :13:48. | :13:48. | |
If your government was the financial manager | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
of a company, you would have sacked them by now. | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
You talk about the next generation, you know, there wasn't be any | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them. | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
You talk about the next generation, you know, there won't be any | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
midwives around in the NHS if you don't value them. | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
I haven't had pay rise for seven years and I'm very experienced. | :14:11. | :14:24. | |
Sorry, are you saying you're leaving, you say | :14:25. | :14:26. | |
You talk about the Pay Review Body, the Pay | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
Review Body reports that 80% of the midwives that left | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
the profession would have stayed if they were | :14:34. | :14:34. | |
Let's hear from the woman in green at the back. | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
I would want to pay more tax so that our firefighters, paramedics, anyone | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
in public service I value the education I have, the education my | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
I value the education I have, the education my | :14:45. | :14:46. | |
grandchildren will be getting and I value my family | :14:47. | :14:48. | |
having a hospital bed, so I don't understand why it is | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
The young man in the check shirt in the middle in the third row. | :14:52. | :15:05. | |
Going back to MPs' pay, I don't think a lot of people | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
realise just how important all MPs' jobs are. | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
The initial question was, should MPs have a pay restraint. | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
And what I find truly extraordinary is that I heard a figure, | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
and bear in mind these nurses and firefighters and others, | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
their pay has been capped for seven years. | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
And it's a possibility it might be capped for another seven years. | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
The last time I looked, when I went to Sainsbury's, | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
Tesco or Waitrose, the prices haven't been capped for seven years. | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
Nor have your rents, nor has your mortgage, | :15:36. | :15:36. | |
And what is amazing, it's not just the 1 billion, | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
or 1.5 billion that we've debated, the deal with the DUP. | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
There are so many other things on which this government | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
and previous governments waste extraordinary amounts of money. | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
For instance, I'll just say the foreign aid budget, | :15:50. | :15:51. | |
which I find quite incredible, ?17 billion. | :15:52. | :15:53. | |
But one other thing, which is a ?56 billion white | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
elephant called HS2, which is where we all need better | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
broadband, and I understand that Hastings is an area that doesn't | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
have the greatest rail service, so possibly I'm playing | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
The man in blue with spectacles in the middle. | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
I appreciate we're living through a time of great austerity, | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
but I'm very concerned about recent changes to the benefit system. | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
I tell you, I was made redundant a year ago, | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
I've had 19 job interviews in a year. | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
But a recent change to the benefit system means you now have to be | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
unemployed for nine months, or 39 weeks, before you get any help | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
I'm close to losing my home because of this. | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Zanny Minton Beddoes, back to the main question. | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
I think the audience are raising incredibly important points | :16:57. | :16:58. | |
which lead into what I think we should be doing and need to have | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
as a country is a very serious conversation about about what kind | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
of services we want, what we want to be paying people | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
in the public sector, what that means in terms | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
of spending, and how we are going to raise the tax | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
We still have, Doctor Fox is right, a pretty big budget deficit. | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
We are spending far more than we are bringing in. | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
We are about to, because of Brexit, I'm afraid, have a hit | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
in our economy which will mean less tax revenue. | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
People are going to be poorer, and therefore there will | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
It's perfectly reasonable that we may want to spend | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
more on public services, but we're starting from | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
So if we want to spend more, we need to raise more tax revenue. | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
And Jeremy Corbyn, I'm afraid, is wrong to think that all of that | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
tax revenue can come from corporations or the very rich. | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
We have to have a proper, serious, grown-up conversation, | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
as the lady in the back row said, about how much tax we as a society | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
want to pay, and what kind of public services we want. | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
We mentioned Brexit and I want to move on to Brexit. | :17:55. | :18:04. | |
Which we've had many more questions about than anything. | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
But just before I do, Question Time is going to be | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
That's the last programme of the summer. | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
We are going to be back in September. | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
But if you want to come to Burton upon Trent, | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
Andy Thomson, let's have your question, please. | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Why have 101 MPs this evening again gone against the will of the British | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
people by voting to remain in the single market | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
Stella Creasy was one of them. | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
50, I think, Labour, and 50 other parties voting against, | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
voting in favour of remaining in the single market. | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
Let me be very clear, right, we are leaving the European Union. | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
The question now is what is the best deal for Britain. | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
And I voted against the Article 50 legislation. | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
I voted tonight to make a point about the importance of having | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
single market membership as part of the negotiations, | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
for exactly the point that Zanny is talking about. | :19:05. | :19:06. | |
Because the economic and social cost of these things | :19:07. | :19:08. | |
And we need some honesty here about the choices | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
And I worry about a government that before it has even begun | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
the negotiations takes things off the table. | :19:17. | :19:18. | |
So I want all of these options on the table. | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
650,000 jobs in London alone are dependent on the single market. | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
If we want a Brexit that is going to work for this | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
country, we have to decide what we think is important. | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
And I think people's livelihoods and being able to keep | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
a roof above their heads, to know there is a job | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
for them and their kids, is something we should prioritise. | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
How do you leave the EU and remain in the customs union | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
There are 101 different combinations that could happen. | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
One of the things that is frustrating about this debate | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
for the last nine months is that you have had Brexit means Brexit | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
Different countries are part of the European Free Trade association. | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
There are countries that are part of the customs union. | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
The Prime Minister said she would like to be an associate | :20:09. | :20:10. | |
It's a membership that doesn't even exist yet. | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
At the moment this government is asking for the moon on a stick. | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
And I want this country to be able to have some serious | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
options to choose from, because the reality | :20:21. | :20:21. | |
Now, I know that is going to be a difficult message for people, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
but I think you want politicians who are acting in what they think | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
None of this is about repeating the referendum or undermining it. | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
It's about saying what is in our best interests as a country. | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
And I think that's the first thing you elect politicians to do. | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
So, Liam Fox, 101 different combinations. | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
Did you think that Stella Creasy and others were going | :20:47. | :20:48. | |
against the will of the British people by voting to stay | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
Let's face it, the people who say we want to stay | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
in the single market, stay in the customs union, | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
but we still respect the will of the British people, | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
They tried to frustrate the will of the British people. | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
The British people made very clear in the referendum, | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
and then in the general election, incidentally. | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
The Conservative Party said we will leave the single market. | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
82% of voters voted for one of those parties that is going | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
And I would say to those who are intent on thwarting | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
what the British public voted for in the referendum, we voted | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
to have control of our own laws, our borders and our money. | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
That means not being under the influence of the European Court | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
of Justice, not having complete free movement, as we have | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
What don't you understand about democratic referendum, | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
or binary, because that's what we voted for? | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
That's not actually true about the Labour manifesto, | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
but also, we've just had a general election. | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
Your government asked for a thumping mandate for that approach, | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
for that hard Brexit, come what may, | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
The public said that's not what they want. | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
If you're right about this issue, why did your party leader sack four | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
shadow ministers tonight because they voted with you? | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
I'm not going to pretend there's not a debate | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
Actually, there are plenty on your side, Liam, who agree with us, | :22:18. | :22:29. | |
that the government should be asking about all options, that you don't go | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
into negotiations writing off two thirds of things. | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
Not one Conservative joined you tonight. | :22:36. | :22:36. | |
Not a single Conservative voted with you tonight. | :22:37. | :22:38. | |
Liam, have some honesty with this audience. | :22:39. | :22:40. | |
There are Conservatives who also agree that single market membership | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
should be something that is part of the discussions. | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
It doesn't mean it will happen but it does mean it is part | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
Why are you cutting off our nose to spite our face? | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
Let's bring in other members of the panel and the audience. | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
There seems to be, both from you, Liam, and from the audience, | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
As far as I remember, the referendum was about did | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
It was not did we want to leave the single market, did | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
we want to leave the customs union, and it so happens... | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
It has been interpreted in the past year to be Brexit means | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
Stella is right that the results of the election were not a thumping | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
You can say, "Not", but if you look at opinion polls now, | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
opinion polls seem to suggest that a majority of the British people | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
actually want to stay in the customs union. | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
Go and look at the Mail on Sunday opinion poll. | :23:33. | :23:42. | |
Better if some of you speak than all of you shout. | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
Who disagrees with what Zanny has just said? | :23:46. | :23:47. | |
Let's hear from the woman on the right. | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
What did you vote for when you voted? | :23:52. | :23:53. | |
I didn't vote most recently because I didn't think | :23:54. | :23:55. | |
For hundreds of years, this country has stood | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
on its own and has been the best in the world for almost everything. | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
We've joined up with others, and it's a load of rubbish. | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
We should be back where we were, on our own. | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
Anybody else want to take issue with what she said? | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
I think there's a little addressed issue in society that | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
there's this balance between freedom and responsibility. | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
There is not only left and right in the world, obviously, | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
because Brexit proved that, split down party lines. | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
But there is this issue that people want to be free, | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
and we voted by a slim majority, but we voted to be free from | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
Anyone saying it's going to be terrible if we stay, | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
or great if we stay, terrible if we leave, | :24:48. | :24:49. | |
What about the 101 different combinations, as Stella Creasy says, | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
And they should be available within the referendum of last year? | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
We can't all vote on 101 different things. | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
That's what the government's for, we delegate that to them. | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
Nice for some of us, but hell for most of us. | :25:08. | :25:09. | |
Stella says that 650,000 jobs in London depend on the EU. | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
They are not going to go away just because we leave. | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
And you say that we want to be isolationist. | :25:17. | :25:18. | |
The share of the world GDP that the EU has is going down | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
We want to look to the rest of the world. | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
There's a big world out there, which we can be part of. | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
And what do you think of remaining in the single or remaining | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
I think we should come out of both of them. | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Just before we move on, to the gentleman there | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
who has tried 19 times, I wish you the very best of luck | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
and I hope somebody is watching tonight that gives you a go. | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
That gentleman there who has lost his job and tried 19 jobs. | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
By the way, I will write you a reference. | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
I have known you for 20 years and you are the finest guy | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
This is the reality of the situation. | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
Would it be a good idea to perhaps pay some cash so we could get back | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
Yes, possibly, but it is never going to happen. | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
To bring up the point from the young man sitting over here, | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
It is a big, brave, bold world out there. | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
And I ask you in all honesty, as you look at the European Union | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
at the moment, as you see where Greece is, where Italy's | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
economy is, as you see where unemployment is in Spain | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
and Portugal, would you want to now tie yourself to something like that | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
which is past its prime and possibly like the old Soviet Union? | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
And just finally, much as I respect Liam and I respect | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
the whole front row, the rugby front row of our | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
negotiators, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox, | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
I can't help but think the person who should be doing | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
the negotiations is Arlene Foster, because by God she got a good | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
I think the audience have raised really good points. | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
In fact, journalist Paul Mason wrote an incredible piece prior | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
to the EU referendum which was about | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
And the fact that you could even have a referendum where people | :27:12. | :27:20. | |
who were never going to be responsible for delivering that | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
Brexit, or that Remain, were allowed to make whatever | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
promises they felt like on the day in order to get their victory, | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
and never have to take accountability for the result. | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
And I think there's a real case now, actually. | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
We've got Brexit people in the audience and on the panel. | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
And your main argument about Brexit and the fact that we should go | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
ahead is that we had to have the democratic mandate. | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
I agree with you, which is why I think there is a legitimate case | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
for saying that when the Brexit deal comes back, we hold | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
If, as our panel are saying, our MPs really have got the best | :27:57. | :28:11. | |
interests of Britain at heart, rather than self-interest, | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
then after the British people have had the opportunity to vote us | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
in or out on Brexit, there should be a cross-party | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
project for the good of the nation, to come together, so that then | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
You are the man in waiting, in charge of negotiating deals | :28:26. | :28:38. | |
with the rest of the world, as I understand it, once the main | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
So presumably you are slightly hanging around. | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
To answer your point, we have actually got a lot of work | :28:47. | :28:55. | |
to do to prepare to leave the European Union, in terms | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
of the agreements that we are party to as part of the European Union. | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
We have to turn them into agreements for the United Kingdom outside. | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
And the reason it's important, 90% of global growth in the next ten | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
If we as a country want to generate the wealth that we will need | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
for all those things that everybody wants in terms of spending | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
on public services, that growth is going to come | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
We need to access and get into those markets, outside the European Union. | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
That's where growth is going to come. | :29:29. | :29:29. | |
I'm sorry, let me just put a question. | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Are there any circumstances in which remaining in the single | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
market or the customs union, the question asked, | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
would appeal to you, you would find it a sensible course? | :29:44. | :29:57. | |
Or is Brexit means Brexit? If we stay in the single market, we are | :29:58. | :30:06. | |
subjected to the course, and if we stay in the customs union we can't | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
negotiate our trade agreements as we are bounded by the common ex-tariff | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
and then we are not able to work with developing countries... We will | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
have both an economic and a moral mission to be able to make the best | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
of the decision that the British people have given us. That | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
opportunity is taking advantages of those big markets that are out there | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
for our future prosperity. Stella Creasy? I want, I think this | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
is great rhetoric, But can I add reality to the great new world we | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
are going to conquer. Yes, there are growing economies growing faster | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
outside of the Europe. 61% of the countries have a union with the | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
trade deals. 61% of our trade is with either the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
European Union or with countries with which the European Union has a | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
free trade, so we have free trade with those countries, the rest is | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
divided half to the United States and half to other countries. The | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
United States we may get a free trade deal but tariffs are low. The | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
US would want access to agriculture markets, what we want is greater | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
access for services. I think more free trade is great. But it means | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
that the British people, having hormone beef, chlorine washed | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
chicken, yes, it does as that is what the Americans want. And the | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
other thing, Liam, as you know well, the Americans will not negotiate | :31:48. | :31:49. | |
with you until they know the relationship that you have the rest | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
of the European Union and ditto with the other emerging economies. And a | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
fact, if the trade with the EU decreases by 5% you have to increase | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
trade with the 10 biggest Commonwealth economies by more than | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
30%. So a tiny decline in trade. How would you go along with it? Stay | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
in the customs union. Can you put your hand on heart and say staying | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
in the customs union and single market accords with the wishes of | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
the 52% of the British people who wanted to remain? Yes. There will be | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
changes to the way that Britain has a relationship with the European | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
Union but it is a negotiation that should not exclude the sensible | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
approach, to have all options on the table. | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
But we have to leave. We have been told to leave by the people. We have | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
been given an instruction. If we stay in the single market we are | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
still in the European Union to all intents and purposes. | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Stella, I come to you. The woman up there, the second row | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
from the back? I would trust what Zanny says as she works for the the | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
The Economist, so I think we should listen to her. | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
And the woman in the front? Thank you. We have, we are close to | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
Europe, there is 300 million people, how are we going to, with the rest | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
of the world, Australia has a population of about 23 million, | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
Norway about 5 million, Canada 40-odd million, and someone said | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
well, India has a huge population but there are not that many rich | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
people in India, why reject the 300 million people on our doorstep? We | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
are not rejecting the people... This is, we are not rejecting Europe. | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
Correction, not rejecting. We want an open and liberal trade | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
agreement with the European Union. But there are very, very big markets | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
out there that we can take advantage of. As for the US are not having | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
talks, we are beginning discussions on the 24th of July, next month. | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
I want to go on. There are many other questions yes? This debate | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
proves why you need more Parliamentally scrutiny. Liam is not | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
levelling, whoever we trade with, we will have to abuy bide by their | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
regulations. You need to know the options. What I and the others who | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
are concerned about walking away from the single market membership, | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
it is not just the tariffs but the standards, your employment rights, | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
environmental standards, we can look at the deal without compromising the | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
commitment that the referendum has had. Believe me, I don't want to run | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
the referendum again. But I do want what is in the best interests of the | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
country. I want the British public to know that the politicians have | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
done a proper job of scrutinising the options so that we have the best | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
deal. I can't tell you hand on heart that is what is happening now. | :35:23. | :35:34. | |
Keith Piggot, please? The horror of Grenfell Tower became politicised | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
during the PM's Question Time, do the panel think that Parliament | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
should adopt Theresa May's collect Ian's guilt approach to resolve or | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's austerity point-scoring? As you know there was | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
a division of opinion in the House of Commons. Nick Ferrari? I thought | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
that was one of the lowest moments in Prime Minister's Questions I have | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
seen for some time. There are people as we speak, who don't know where | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
loved ones are, who don't know where their families are. Incredibly | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
diligent men and women wading through, I apologise for this but up | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
to three feet of broken appliances, ash, goodness knows what else, to | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
see the leader of the political party to score a cheap point over | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
that, I thought was reprehensible. Beaten by your Shadow Chancellor, | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
John McDonald, suggesting irresponsible, and incorrectly, it | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
could be illegally, that they were murdered by political decisions. | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
There is a time... There is a time... | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
APPLAUSE There is a time for able | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
politicians, such as Stella and Liam and the colleagues to debate this | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
but while the brave men and women are searching for fragments of bone | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
or teeth, this is not the time to get political about it. | :37:09. | :37:17. | |
What I think is more reprehensible than your point is that it has taken | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
a tragedy like Grenfell Tower to even race the issue. No-one was | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
speaking about it before. Why shouldn't Jeremy Corbyn bring it up? | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
There will be a time to answer you, sir. I hope that there is a sea | :37:32. | :37:40. | |
change as to how the Hillsborough challenge was run, I hope that there | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
is sea change movement, I really do. But there are no party political | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
points to score. I don't want to do this, you can see that you can track | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
legislation to Tony Blair, to the coalition government, no one party | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
emerges with any credit here, so they should not be playing this | :37:59. | :37:59. | |
game. APPLAUSE | :38:00. | :38:14. | |
You know what I think is reprehensible, I think it is | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
reprehensible and disgusting, that the reason that building was wrapped | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
in combustible cladding is because of the poverty of the people living | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
in that tower block was offensive enough to hide behind combustible | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
cladding... And I make no apology for saying it. | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
Well it is wrong, you have to, actually. This is not about party | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
politics, this is about, what it is about is saying there were a chain | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
of events that led to this fire that have to be analysed, and questions | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
have to be asked and answered openly. It is not me saying that, it | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
is not Jeremy Corbyn saying that, it is the survivors of this disaster. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
It is the residents of that tower who wrote in 2014, saying that they | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
believed this was a fire risk. They wrote in March of this year. | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
They said it would take a catastrophic event for our concerns | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
to be listened to. And tragically, that proved true because those | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
people, because they were poor, because they were immigrants... No. | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
No. You cannot say that. They were ignored. I guarantee if they were | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
the richer residents of Chelsea making that complaint... There was a | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
Fire Brigades Union stadium, they play where there is this cladding. | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
There are hotels, ?200 a night, they have this cladding. You have to let | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
the inquiry take its course. You must. | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
In 2009, six people were killed in a tower block fire in Southwark. The | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
coroner said in 2013 that the cladding was to blame and that all | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
tower blocks should be retro fitted with sprinklers, the government did | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
not provide the resources, they sent a letter, it was not compulsory, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
they had the choice. David Cameron had the bonfire of building | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
regulations, and he boasted that. Liam Fox? Like a lot of people who | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
have worked for the Emergency Services, this fire brought back a | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
lot of unpleasant memories for me. I was a junior doctor, there was a | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
fire, you may remember it, David, the so-called Ice Cream Wars, people | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
holding their children in their arms in a baricated flat block and people | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
died in that. For me it brought back unpleasant memories of that. There | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
will be a time to ask a lot of these questions but there is still a great | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
deal of suffering going on. People have had their lives ruined. People | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
have had their families, they will never be together again. We need to | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
conduct the debate with a little bit of respect for them. Politicising it | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
is deeply tasteless and it is offensive. I could not agree more | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
but can I say... I think there has been a public possibility failure | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
for decades. We have to come to terms with that. It has come at a | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
lot of levels, at government, inspection, building, at local | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
authority level, and we would be wise now to let the inquiry take its | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
course, stop pointing fingers and remember this is essentially still a | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
dreadful, dreadful human tragedy that we're witnessing. | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
Stella Creasy, what Corbyn said in the House of Commons is that the | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
fire was the result of disastrous effects of austerity, of a price | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
paid in public safety, the terrible consequences of deregulation, | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
cutting corners that stem from a disregard for working-class | :42:17. | :42:18. | |
communities. Do you endorse that view? I am mindful if my community | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
in Walthamstow that there are people in blocks that have cladding that is | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
being investigated. So I agree we have to choose our words carefully. | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
I am concerned by what we have seen by the judge in the encary, who has | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
said he doesn't think he can satisfy the concerns of the green fell | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
residents in terms of what he can look at. He is looking at the fire | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
and what happened after. Absolutely, there is a time and a place for | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
those discussions. If there is one thing we have learned from | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
Hillsborough, if you are looking for both truth and accountability, | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
transparency matters. It does look like there is increasing concern | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
about building regulations. We don't know which way it goes. We know | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
looking at whether or not the building regulations in this country | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
have been applied or been too flexible or not enforced, it is a | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
question to be answered. Was your leader right to say it was | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
a disregard for working class communities and the disastrous | :43:22. | :43:23. | |
effects that caused this fire. Right or wrong to say in the House of | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
Commons? I don't agree with the way in which he put it, I do agree that | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
the inquiry should look at a wider range of issues. All of us, you can | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
hear the heat in the audience, you can hear the concern. I understand | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
where Jeremy was coming from in being concerned, and all of us must | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
channel our anger into what is the best thing for those people worried | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
about the cladding around them it is right to have proper investigation. | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
And I would like the public advocate process fast tracked. Having the | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
voices of the residents, the victims, front and centre, why are | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
they not able to negotiate with the judge about his remit? That they | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
have not, the worry is that the questions may not get looked at. We | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
all want a proper and independent investigation as to what happened. | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
Zanny Minton Beddoes? We need a proper investigation, that is | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
transparent but also speedy. Part of the problem with public enquiries is | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
that they go on. It is incredibly emotional issue. It is a terrible, | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
terrible tragedy. Is it right it should abpolitical | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
issue? No, I think that Jeremy Corbyn was utterly wrong to say | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
that. I think it was both inaccurate and | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
unhelpful and importantly unful helpful as adding to the emotion | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
make it is less likely we have the speedy transparent inquiry we must | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
have. And it can happen. There was a terrible fire in Clint. | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
There was a quick an sips of what needed to happen with building are | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
laces and enforcement and things changed fast. | :45:13. | :45:26. | |
We need that, but we also need to have, frankly, a broader look. | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
And this is where I think austerity here is not irrelevant | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
But there is a broader problem with the housing | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
stock in this country, that this is partly a reflection of. | :45:36. | :45:37. | |
And we need to have a debate on that. | :45:38. | :45:39. | |
The inquiry isn't going to have that. | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
The inquiry needs to look at building regulations | :45:42. | :45:43. | |
and what caused the fire, how it spread, what can be done | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
as quickly to improve things as possible. | :45:47. | :45:48. | |
But beyond that, we need a broader debate as a country. | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
Building regulations isn't part of the inquiry at the moment, | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
and I think that's the concern that many of us have, that that | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
ought to be something we are looking at now. | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
This is a collection of 600 Victorian cuttings | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
The first cuttings says how to keep fire away from people and how | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
They are never learned, they are just forgotten. | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
And that has happened in this case, for decades, by all parties. | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
What will be done to make sure that the government, | :46:14. | :46:28. | |
whoever it may be, will listen to this public enquiry and make sure | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
that they do the recommendations, that it goes into legislation? | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
You think the enquiry may just be published and nothing happens. | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
That's a very relevant point, but sort of revisiting something I said. | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
Tragically, every now and again, something comes along | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
that just sears its way into our consciousness, | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
We've got to be careful what we say because that's been | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
a momentous week for that, or the King's Cross fire, | :46:55. | :46:56. | |
And it causes massive change, because it is the will of the people | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
and the politicians know there has to be change. | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
I'm telling you now, in two or three years, | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
there won't be cladding on any of these hotels, any of these | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
hospitals, any of these schools, any of these apartment blocks, | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
and Britain will be a bloody better place for it. | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
Can we also as a country end the critique | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
of health and safety, because this government boasted | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
about having a one in, two out approach to regulation. | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
If we are learning anything, actually regulations about health | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
If one of the things that comes out of this is a recognition that health | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
and safety is there exactly for those reasons, that's | :47:41. | :47:42. | |
You raised the point about legislation is very key. | :47:43. | :47:51. | |
But you can legislate, and you can have regulations all you like. | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
We have to make sure they are implemented. | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
Politicians, we can pass laws, but if they are not being | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
implemented on the ground, if there is not a mechanism | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
to ensure that they are being implemented, then | :48:04. | :48:05. | |
Part of the reason that enforcement isn't taking place | :48:06. | :48:14. | |
is because of cuts to local government funding of 40%. | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
If you're not paying for the inspectors to enforce | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
the legislation, then there's a problem. | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
I just wanted to say that we need to move from the disgrace | :48:25. | :48:34. | |
of the current situation to amazing grace. | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
Let's take politics out of social housing, and boost our economy | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
through social infrastructure, and build more social housing. | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
We've got a few minutes left, eight or so minutes. | :48:47. | :48:59. | |
Do the mainstream media still serve any useful purpose? | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
We have the founder of the Canary, which is I imagine not mainstream | :49:05. | :49:13. | |
media of the kind you are talking about, newspapers and television. | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
Newspapers primarily, yes, but TV, radio... | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
Frankly, I don't think you would be in the audience or we would be | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
on the panel if there was no purpose to the exchanges that we are having. | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
I think we need to get as much public discourse as possible. | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
Perhaps we need to look at the formats that we have, | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
in terms of whether they are interesting to young voters, | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
whether we are creative enough in the way that we get | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
But the more that we can get information, the more we can get | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
people involved in the political process and public policy | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
I think the media does need to innovate, but the other thing | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
that we require a free media for is a counterbalance | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
We need a media that is able to say things that politicians don't like, | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
there needs to be an ability for people to express views we don't | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
That is how you keep a free and open society, | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
and that, hopefully, is the legacy we would want | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
Kerry-Anne Mendoza, you founded the Canary, | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
Do mainstream media serve any useful purpose, or do young people, | :50:34. | :50:43. | |
younger voters, look to people like you for their information? | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
I would disagree with Liam's analysis about format. | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
The issue is a painful lack of diversity in our mainstream media. | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
And it's a lack of diversity on several levels. | :50:57. | :51:04. | |
First, you have a lack of diversity in terms of ownership. | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
80% of our media is owned by six corporations. | :51:08. | :51:09. | |
But that lack of diversity then permeates into the newsrooms. | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
So the whole path into journalism these days | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
is you basically go to a handful of universities, maybe six. | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
And then you do an unpaid internship, probably | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
There was a study that came out yesterday. | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
51% of our journalists were public school educated. | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
Compared to 7% of the population at large. | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
So what you end up with is a mostly white, mostly male, | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
mostly middle-class media, based mostly in London. | :51:44. | :51:45. | |
And the problem with that is that that narrow slice of humanity | :51:46. | :51:56. | |
And this isn't about people being evil or being cruel. | :51:57. | :52:04. | |
It's just simply, it shouldn't be a controversial point to say | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
that the newsrooms of the British media should look and sound | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
like the modern Britain in which they sit. | :52:11. | :52:12. | |
That should not be a controversial point. | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
It will be an unpalatable fact for you but the reality | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
is that the people who were involved in the brutal racist killing | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
of Stephen Lawrence would not be behind bars without the power | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
And the editor took a great risk and could have | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
The other thing is, of course we talk about young people. | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
Actually, I have been in and around the newspaper | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
I have a television show, I'm on the radio and I write | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
a column for the Sunday express, so I cover the whole damn lot. | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
Never has the mainstream media been more important. | :52:46. | :52:47. | |
Because while I respect what people like them are doing and it's great | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
and it gets kids involved, which is fantastic, don't | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
forget that when you go to these sort of utterings, | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
which at many times are like the mad ramblings of a man on the top deck | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
of the bus speaking into his hand, they have no journalistic | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
Which is why we heard that the Pope was endorsing Donald Trump. | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
So that is why we need to give journalists, | :53:07. | :53:08. | |
like the people who work on this show, on Question Time, | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
who work on my radio show on LBC, because when you hear it from us, | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
it will be true, or to the best of our endeavours it will be true. | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
Firstly, you want to talk about facts. | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
Firstly, our readership isn't predominantly young. | :53:26. | :53:26. | |
Our readership is predominantly 25 to 50. | :53:27. | :53:28. | |
I was addressing that man's question. | :53:29. | :53:30. | |
We range from 20 through to our most veteran reporter | :53:31. | :53:38. | |
who was a journalist in traditional media before I was even born. | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
We are diverse ethnically, in terms of religion, Jewish, | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
The idea that you can work for a station that | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
You know, Nick, just this week a Muslim man was beaten | :53:51. | :54:02. | |
to within an inch of his life, and the people painted | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
So when we are talking about journalistic responsibility, | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
I think we need to look at the mainstream media | :54:14. | :54:15. | |
As a younger voter, I think that you can bleat | :54:16. | :54:26. | |
on about different types of media, but the media report what they see. | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
And frankly, our politicians' behaviour is such a turn-off. | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
Both sides are point-scoring cheaply, and we had | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
the Conservatives jeering and cheering when they voted down | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
You can blame the different types of media for young | :54:44. | :54:57. | |
voters not engaging, they can only report what they see. | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
Actually, it's the behaviour of the politicians that turns us off. | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
Zanny Minton Beddoes, as the editor of a long | :55:05. | :55:06. | |
Very long established, and independent, I must say, | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
Do mainstream media serve any purpose? | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
I think there's a hunger for real news, for good analysis out there, | :55:17. | :55:25. | |
as much among young people as older people. | :55:26. | :55:27. | |
You have to reach people in the way that they want | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
We reach lots of people through Facebook, through Twitter, | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
through Snapchat, one of our biggest recent successes. | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
You can't keep doing exactly the same as you did, | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
but the people really value authoritative, | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
I think it's great to have lots of voices. | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
I think in this country, and I spent most of my career | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
outside this country, interesting coming back how | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
the press is dominated by a few publications. | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
There has been an incredible power there. | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
But that is waning, because if you look at this election | :56:04. | :56:05. | |
result, in some sense it's a damning indictment of the power of the Daily | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
Stella Creasy, do you think it was social media that built up | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
Oh, look, 60% of people under 30 get their news from Facebook. | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
Clearly, the way in which people are consuming news has changed. | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
I think in a healthy democracy you need both news and analysis, | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
but you need to be able to tell the difference between both. | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
And frankly, whether it is offline or online, I think you need to have | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
So I agree that we need to look again. | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
We have traditionally separated broadcast and print. | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
Our print media doesn't have the same impartiality. | :56:45. | :56:46. | |
I think you would not say the Daily Mail was impartial. | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
What I worry about is, I do have younger people | :56:51. | :56:58. | |
in my community coming to me who are very critical of official | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
sources of information and will then send me links from Russia Today | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
I want us to be able to have a debate about sources, | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
because I think all of you should be open to the scrutiny | :57:10. | :57:11. | |
about what is your evidence base for the claims you are making. | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
And I do think the new media model... | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
Briefly, the man who asked the question. | :57:17. | :57:34. | |
I would just like to state that today earlier on social media I put | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
this question out with particular focus to newspapers. | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
I had about 20 of my friends respond. | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
Not one of them, from the age of in their 20s through to their 50s, | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
It's all through the internet and social media. | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
Next week, Question Time is going to be in Burton upon Trent, | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
the last programme before the summer break. | :58:03. | :58:04. | |
We are back on September the 14th with a programme | :58:05. | :58:06. | |
If you want to be in the audience there in Burton upon Trent, | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
or Stratford, if you can remember it on September the 14th, | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
That's the best way, probably, or ring us. | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
If you've been listening on five live, Question Time Extra | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
Time follows and goes on until the early hours. | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
My thanks to our panellists and to all of you who came | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
Until next Thursday from Question Time, good night. | :58:32. | :59:13. | |
We're not going to get out of this one, are we? | :59:14. | :59:16. |