Browse content similar to 19/10/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Tonight we're in Dunstable and welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:04 | 0:00:08 | |
And with us here tonight, the Conservative Transport | 0:00:15 | 0:00:17 | |
Secretary, the man who ran Theresa May's campaign to become | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
Tory leader, Chris Grayling. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:23 | |
The Labour MP, Lisa Nandy. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:27 | |
The President of the Liberal Democrats, Sal Brinton, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:30 | |
the Chief Executive of the high street shop Next, Simon Wolfson, | 0:00:30 | 0:00:36 | |
and probably the only vicar to have had a number one single and was last | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
seen doing the paso doble on Strictly Come | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
Dancing, Richard Coles. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:47 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:57 | |
If you want to engage in the debate that goes on, | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
our hashtag is BBCQT. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
We are on Twitter and Facebook, or you can text 83981 and push | 0:01:03 | 0:01:10 | |
the red button if you want to see what others are saying. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
And only civilised debate, please, not just raw insult, | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
which seems to be the current mode. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
Our first question is from Susan Clark, please, | 0:01:17 | 0:01:21 | |
let's have her question? | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
In the light of the Harvey Weinstein scandal, is sexism just as prevalent | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
as it was in the 60s and 70s? | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
Is sexism just as prevalent today as it was in the 60s and 70s? | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
Sal Brinton? | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
Yes, I think it is and I'm not surprised by the revelations. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
I think many women from my generation in the 70s right the way | 0:01:40 | 0:01:45 | |
through had to learn to put up with it because that is what we were | 0:01:45 | 0:01:50 | |
told to do and we were ignored if we made complaints. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
The really positive thing to come out of the dreadful revelations | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
about Harvey Weinstein has been the #MeToo, me too because now | 0:01:57 | 0:02:02 | |
we all know that it's everywhere and it's not just the occasional | 0:02:02 | 0:02:08 | |
woman's fault for being too attractive or somebody just | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
trying to make a pass. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
Just explain MeToo? | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
The #MeToo started earlier in the week where, I can't remember | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
the name of the actor in America, said, if you have faced harassment | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
of any sort or worse, just do #MeToo, I was surprised | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
to discover my young daughter had done that | 0:02:26 | 0:02:31 | |
hashtag herself on Twitter. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
I did not know but in common with many other young women, | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
she has got on with her life. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
The question for us as a society is, is it acceptable? | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
And the answer is no and I think finally, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
the wider community is understanding that we need to call things out | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
like this when we see them and support women and men, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
because it affects men too, when it happens. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
Richard Coles? | 0:03:01 | 0:03:03 | |
I thought MeToo was brilliant because it revealed something that | 0:03:03 | 0:03:08 | |
perhaps we didn't fully know yet or not all of us fully know yet, | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
but the sheer extent of that behaviour of men towards women | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
which is shocking and deplorable. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:15 | |
I think one of the things that depressed me most | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
of all about it was just how persistent that behaviour's been | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
in certain places, particularly places where individuals have | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
extraordinary degrees of power, like a film producer, | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
in the music industry too, Tom Jones spoke about it earlier | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
didn't he, having had a similar experience when he was starting out. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
I think what I find depressing about it is just how slow some men | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
have been to learn the lessons of feminism, decades of feminism | 0:03:37 | 0:03:41 | |
now, how slow men are to respect women properly and also | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
to respect themselves properly. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
One of the things that I find most striking about this is the extent | 0:03:48 | 0:03:58 | |
to which those who perpetrate this kind of behaviour seem | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
to have so little sense of themselves as full human beings, | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
so little self-respect and I think that's something that men need to do | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
is to try to understand better why we behave in that sort of way, | 0:04:11 | 0:04:15 | |
we in the most general sense, and to talk a little bit | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
about what male identity means. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
That's got rather left behind I think. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
So much of the running has been made about questions | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
around womens' identity, so we have got a lot | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
of catching up to do I think. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
What about in your trade, Simon Wolfson? | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
We talked about show business and theatre and all that, | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
what about in industry and on the shop floor? | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
I think what you will find is, the more women there | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
are in an industry, the less sexism there is. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:41 | |
I'm in an industry that has huge numbers of female employees | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
and I have never come across anything in the work place, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
I've never come across an HR case coming anywhere close | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
to what Harvey Weinstein's done. | 0:04:51 | 0:05:01 | |
So I think while it is incredibly important, is that we are very | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
careful about how we behave in the work place and that people | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
understand how you can abuse power. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:10 | |
One good example of that I think is swearing. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:12 | |
I think particularly using sexual swear words in the work place | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
is threatening for some people, particularly women, and it's that | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
sort of behaviour I think that we need to make sure doesn't | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
creep into our businesses and make sure that we are respectful. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
I would like to hear from any members of the audience. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
You, there? | 0:05:25 | 0:05:26 | |
As a transgender person, I also say MeToo. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:28 | |
Within a hundred feet of where we are sitting now, | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
I was physically attacked by a bunch of males. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:33 | |
I've been in a hate crime conference with Bedfordshire Police today | 0:05:33 | 0:05:38 | |
as a guest speaker because of that. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
I'll turn that negative into a positive. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
Picking up what you were saying about the work place, | 0:05:44 | 0:05:54 | |
on the other hand, I work for Monarch Aircraft Engineering, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
part of the former Monarch group, and we'll get to that | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
in a minute, Chris, I'm sure... | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
No, no, get to the point. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:08 | |
In my work place, I'm well respected all over the world. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
I teach people from all over the world and I'm well respected. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
I think I'm with MeToo and I think many people should go with it also. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:17 | |
The question is, is sexism as prevalent | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
as it was in the 60s or 70s. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:21 | |
You probably weren't around? | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
I wasn't but I do still think it's still as sexist today. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
Even on the way from the car park from here tonight, | 0:06:29 | 0:06:32 | |
we had a man shout out of his car window saying things to us, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
and that's literally because my sister was wearing a skirt. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
It doesn't go away but I do think that now people in the industries, | 0:06:37 | 0:06:41 | |
like famous people, are speaking out saying these things are happening | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
to them and people with getting their come-uppance likes | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
Harvey Weinstein, hopefully it will seep down into general society | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
and people will learn that it's actually not OK. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
I agree with Reverend Richard Coles saying, how can that man who said | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
that to me and my sister look at us like a human being, | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
like what is he thinking saying that to a young woman. | 0:07:00 | 0:07:03 | |
We feel scared walking through a park at night, | 0:07:03 | 0:07:05 | |
there's three men sitting on a bench, you don't know | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
if they are going to say something to you, it's actually very scary. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
It's not OK. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:12 | |
Lisa Nandy? | 0:07:12 | 0:07:13 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
I'm sort of a bit tempted to say what she said actually | 0:07:17 | 0:07:22 | |
and just leave it at that but because I wasn't around | 0:07:22 | 0:07:27 | |
in the 60s or 70s either but I don't know a single woman who hasn't been | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
sexually harassed at some point in their lifetime or worse, | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
sexually assaulted. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:34 | |
So I don't know how bad it was before but it's | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
certainly very, very bad now. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
I agree with Sal and with other people on the panel who said that | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
they've been very inspired by the solidarity shown by women | 0:07:42 | 0:07:47 | |
coming out with the hashtag Me Too and talking about their experiences, | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
but the truth is, that it's 2017 and we shouldn't | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
be talking about this, we should be acting on it. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
And actually, wherever I go in my day job, in politics, | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
or in my life generally, what I see in these closed rooms | 0:07:58 | 0:08:03 | |
is men in positions of power and women who don't hold that power | 0:08:03 | 0:08:07 | |
and, until we start to think seriously about how we change that, | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
more diversity in these organisations, much more | 0:08:10 | 0:08:12 | |
transparency so you don't get these examples like the FA this week, | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
of institutions investigating themselves behind closed doors | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
and then publishing the outcome. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
Unless we start to take that seriously and act, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
instead of just talking about it, I fear that when my son grows up, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
we'll still be having this conversation then. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:32 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
Yes. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:45 | |
But the interesting thing is, has the Harvey Weinstein scandal | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
actually brought out things and will it change the mood? | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
I mean, the hashtag MeToo, are people already reconsidering | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
their attitude, men to women? | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
Actually, I think one of the most disturbing things about this is that | 0:08:56 | 0:09:01 | |
when there was this outpouring of collective, it felt like therapy | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
I think for a lot of women just being able to talk about these | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
things openly, using that hashtag, there was a response | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
from a significant minority of men, particularly on social media, | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
that sought to blame the victim. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:14 | |
The response to Emma Thompson for example was, why didn't | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
you do anything about it, why didn't you speak out earlier. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
Until we stop blaming the victims, I think we are going to be | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
in a very bad place indeed. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
The person over there in the checked shirt? | 0:09:27 | 0:09:32 | |
I was around in the 60s and 70s and yes sexism was prevalent | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
and it is just as prevalent, if not more so now, I believe. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:39 | |
I was sexually harassed, I was groped. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
You know, what are we actually meaning here? | 0:09:42 | 0:09:47 | |
We have now got what's come up with what we have heard in the media | 0:09:47 | 0:09:51 | |
this week and the last couple of weeks with a powerful | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
film producer, you know, Hollywood and everything else, | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
it's all becoming so big and I'm so pleased it is, it needs to be. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
But we do have to be careful that it also does not become a witch-hunt | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
and people do not just jump on bandwagons for the sake of it. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
We had no voice in the 60s and 70s to actually speak out, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
we were afraid then as well. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:18 | |
What we have to also be careful of, you know, the hashtag, | 0:10:18 | 0:10:22 | |
that is wonderful, but we also have to be very careful that it | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
doesn't become much, much, much bigger and people become | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
victims of that too. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
OK. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
The man in the spectacles there? | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
The case of institutional sexism is a strange one. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
I think it's still prevalent now. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
The question, Simon is probably the best to answer this, | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
a friend of mine a few years ago was approached by Abercrombie | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
Fitch or Hollister the brand. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:49 | |
They recruit women to work in their shops Purely based | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
on their appearance. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:53 | |
They just walked up to her in the street and said, | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
do you do any modelling, do you want a job. | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
Regardless of her credentials. | 0:10:58 | 0:10:59 | |
How do you remove that as an embedded policy like that | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
from a huge company? | 0:11:02 | 0:11:03 | |
Chris I'll come to you, but do you want to briefly | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
answer that, Simon? | 0:11:06 | 0:11:07 | |
It certainly doesn't exist in my company otherwise | 0:11:07 | 0:11:08 | |
I'm pleased to say. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
Yes. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
Chris Grayling? | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
I think the thing that is different today is the horrendous things | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
we have seen over the last few weeks, the revelations | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
would not have happened I think 20% 30 years ago. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
Our society's a more open place, it's more willing to face up | 0:11:24 | 0:11:27 | |
to these things, it's more willing to condemn. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
There is therefore the opportunity to change. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
If you go back to the 60s and 70s, and I was a child in the 60s | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
and a teenager in the 70s, the reality is, as we have so often | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
heard from the victims, they did not speak out | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
because nobody would believe them and nobody would have | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
done anything about it. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:44 | |
It's different today and that has to be the positive. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:46 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:56 | |
We'll go on. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:02 | |
We have got a number of questions to Go get | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
through before we take the next question, as always. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:07 | |
I'm just going to say where we are going to be next week | 0:12:07 | 0:12:17 | |
which is Portsmouth and the week after that in Kilmarnock. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
Details on the screen and we'll give them again at the end. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:25 | |
A question from David McNess, please? | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
How would the panel survive with no income and no | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
savings and a six-week wait for state support? | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
A reference to the introduction of the universal credit which has | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
been very much in the news and been talked about in Parliament. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
Simon Wolfson, how would you survive with no income, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
no savings and a six-week wait for state support? | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
I mean I can't imagine how difficult that would be and I think whilst | 0:12:42 | 0:12:46 | |
universal credit in principle is a great idea, the idea you go | 0:12:46 | 0:12:50 | |
to one place that you don't have to fill out millions of forms | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
in millions of different places, simplifying the process | 0:12:54 | 0:12:55 | |
is completely the right policy. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
But this idea that people have got to wait six weeks | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
to get paid must be wrong. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
The reason it's wrong is because what does it cost | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
the Government to pay people, rather than pay people in arrears, | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
what would it cost the Government to pay them in advance? | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
The answer is, they have to borrow a month back of money. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
The body that can borrow by far the cheapest in this | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
country is the Government. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:19 | |
It can borrow at less than a quarter of a percent. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
Those people who're in that position, they will have to go | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
to the very, very most expensive lenders, they'll be borrowing | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
at rates of 40-50%, so it's insane for the Government not to be | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
the borrower, rather than the receiver of benefits. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
And he's a Conservative supporter and a Conservative funder, | 0:13:40 | 0:13:45 | |
what do you say to him, let alone all the people | 0:13:45 | 0:13:50 | |
who're having difficulty with universal credit? | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
Let's explain what the universal credit is designed to do. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
He's explained that, he said you could borrow the money | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
and get out of the problem? | 0:13:57 | 0:13:58 | |
Let me explain what it's designed to do. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:00 | |
It's designed to enable people to move into sometimes part-time | 0:14:00 | 0:14:02 | |
work, moving on to full-time work, to have a change of circumstance | 0:14:02 | 0:14:05 | |
where when they're in the system, they don't have to keep logging back | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
in, logging back on, reclaiming, it's also designed to end | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
the situation where somebody's working part-time, | 0:14:13 | 0:14:14 | |
16 hours a week... | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
Sorry, Chris, I'm going to interrupt you. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:17 | |
Everybody knows this, it's been said over and over again. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:23 | |
The question that David McNess asks is about the six-week wait before | 0:14:23 | 0:14:26 | |
money comes through. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:27 | |
OK but... | 0:14:27 | 0:14:28 | |
Don't bother about why it's there, everybody's | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
agreed, even Labour agrees on the idea. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
Just go to the six week point? | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
The point I was trying to make is it's designed | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
to replicate your experience in a job, receiving benefits back | 0:14:43 | 0:14:48 | |
in a job so you actually have a steady flow as you move | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
into benefits and move back into part-time work. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
Now, I don't want anyone to have no money for six weeks. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:57 | |
And we have a system in place that money is available for advance | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
payments for people who need it, immediately if necessary. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
That's the right thing to do. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:04 | |
One in four wait longer than six weeks. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
It's a huge reform and has so far been applied to 8% | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
of benefit claimants. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:10 | |
We are rolling it out very gradually. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
We are learning lessons, to make sure things work. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
When things don't work as well as they should, | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
we are making changes. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:17 | |
That's the right thing to do. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
Let me get a microphone to you. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:26 | |
I am saying to Mr Grayling, the Tory party, the majority of them | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
yesterday, they abstained in the House on the vote to give | 0:15:30 | 0:15:34 | |
a buffer period to look into what is going wrong with this, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:38 | |
and they abstained. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:42 | |
That has left the people that are suffering disgusted. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
Disgusted. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:48 | |
So yesterday's vote was to pause the reform. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:52 | |
But the reform is a positive. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:53 | |
It's having a positive effect. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
More people are getting into work from universal credit | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
than was the case from conventional benefits. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:58 | |
No, no, no, no. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:00 | |
We are making changes as it goes through. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:04 | |
We've improved the situation with advance payments. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:05 | |
So why do you abstain? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
Why do you abstain? | 0:16:07 | 0:16:08 | |
Why do you not go to the House like the Speaker has asked | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
you, and explain this? | 0:16:11 | 0:16:12 | |
I will come back to you. | 0:16:12 | 0:16:13 | |
Lisa Nandy, let's hear from Labour. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
It is just not true to say that the government is learning | 0:16:15 | 0:16:17 | |
lessons from the roll-out of this plan. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:19 | 0:16:21 | |
And the reason I know that is because it was | 0:16:21 | 0:16:24 | |
piloted first in Wigan, where I live, in 2013. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
And at the end of that pilot, 80% of people were in rent arrears, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
three times as much debt as people who hadn't been in this scheme | 0:16:31 | 0:16:34 | |
who were also in arrears. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
So it is not true to say that the government is learning | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
lessons, and it is not true to say that the government isn't aware | 0:16:41 | 0:16:45 | |
of the scale of human misery that the chaotic roll-out of this | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
programme has already caused. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
And yesterday they were given an opportunity to work with us, | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
to pause this scheme and work with us to fix it, so that it | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
could benefit people and not cause that real hardship. | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
And not only did they refuse to do that, but they didn't even bother | 0:17:00 | 0:17:05 | |
to turn up to defend their policy. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
If my constituents didn't turn up, they would be sanctioned and go | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
without money and anything to eat for a significant amount of time. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
And yet that is precisely what the Tory party, | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
who are permitting this policy, did yesterday. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
If there was ever a sign that this group of people is not fit to hold | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
office in this country, this is it. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:17:29 | 0:17:35 | |
The man there, and Lisa, says you failed to turn up to vote. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
And even the Speaker of the House of Commons, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
rather extraordinarily, said that the government should show | 0:17:43 | 0:17:47 | |
respect to Parliament and say what it intends to do. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
Why did you abstain? | 0:17:50 | 0:17:51 | |
Why were you not there? | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
The government was there, we had ministers speaking in the debate, | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
we had backbenchers speaking in the debate. | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
Simply choosing not to vote against a Labour opposition day | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
motion, which is not a binding motion, does not mean | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
we failed to turn up. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
Total disrespect for people. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
It was worse than that. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
There was a three-line whip for you to abstain. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
They so didn't want a vote that they told people | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
they had to abstain. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
Three-line whip is a bit of an arcane term that we know, | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
but I just find that is quite extraordinary and it just | 0:18:20 | 0:18:23 | |
demonstrates that the government do not know what they are doing. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
They should have stopped the pilot that came in. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
The principles were right, Simon is right, the principles | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
about simplifying the benefits procedure were spot-on. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
But as the pilots came in and it became clear there were problems. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
And then worse than that, in 2015 the new Conservative | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
government then started to make cuts to universal credit that have made | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
things much, much worse. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:50 | |
Lisa Nandy, what do you make of what Simon Wolfson said, | 0:18:50 | 0:18:53 | |
that the government should borrow the money and simply pay people | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
to get over this six-week pause? | 0:18:56 | 0:18:57 | |
Is that Labour policy too? | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
I was saying they should pay it in advance, rather than in arrears. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
The government says that... | 0:19:02 | 0:19:03 | |
They borrow to do that? | 0:19:03 | 0:19:05 | |
Yes. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:06 | |
The government says that you can get advance payments, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:12 | |
but I was sitting in my constituency office in Wigan today | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
discussing this with my staff. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:16 | |
We have had so many of these cases over the last few years, | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
and they do not tell you about the advance payments. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
So nobody knows. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:22 | |
So people aren't getting what they need. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
They are being told that they have to wait six weeks for the money, | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
although one in four are waiting longer because the government can't | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
get its act together. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:31 | |
But it's worse than that, too. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
What we found in the pilot in Wigan is that many people didn't have bank | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
accounts so they needed time to get up to speed with that. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
Many other people weren't online and didn't have | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
access to the internet, in part because the government has | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
cut and cut and cut, so they don't have access to those | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
very basic rights that they need in order to participate in the scheme. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
And the government says that people wait six weeks in order to get | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
a first pay packet in work, but the truth is that for people | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
who earn the least in this country, usually, a significant minority | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
of those people are paid weekly, not six-weekly. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:05 | |
So it is just simply not true. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
I will come to those of you with your hands | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
up in just a moment. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
Richard Coles. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:14 | |
What's it like to be skint and then to go six weeks | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
without any benefit at all? | 0:20:17 | 0:20:18 | |
Well, it's grim, and it's also catastrophic. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
I think it's grim. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:22 | |
We see this in numbers where I live of people visiting the food bank. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
Not just people out of work, but some people actually in work | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
visiting food banks. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:29 | |
Discuss. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:30 | |
But I think the catastrophic thing is, more and more people | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
are getting into rent arrears. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:34 | |
And what concerns me is that a six-week gap in income can create | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
rent arrears to the extent that you face the reality of eviction. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
Nothing seems to me to fray the fabric of the community, | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
or to undermine the cohesiveness of a community than | 0:20:43 | 0:20:45 | |
insecure housing. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:47 | |
And that's something which I think is a major, major problem. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
It's harder and harder to access social housing, | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
because there aren't the resources going into it. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
But when you get into rent arrears, then you're | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
really, really in trouble. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:57 | |
You, sir, in the front. | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
The government has had four years of trying to get | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
this problem sorted. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
Why hasn't it come up with an answer? | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
Four years of doing basically nothing. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:12 | |
We've still got major problems. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:15 | |
We've been introducing this very calmly, small, a bit at a time. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
8% of people are now claiming the benefit. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
You shouldn't have a problem after four years, surely. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
So that we learn the lesson and make changes, which we've been doing | 0:21:26 | 0:21:31 | |
with advance payments, for example, making sure people | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
who really need money can get it on the day. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
That's what we've been doing to deal with what is a huge reform and try | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
and make sure that people don't have to wait six weeks without money. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
You shouldn't have a problem, after four years of supposedly | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
putting it correctly in position. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
Simon Wolfson, this talk about advance payments, | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
does that answer your question? | 0:21:50 | 0:21:51 | |
No, I think benefits should be paid in advance, | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
rather than in arrears, as I say. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
But you say you are already doing that. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
Are you? | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
If you pay a benefit all the time in advance when someone gets | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
into work and they are paid in arrears, then | 0:22:04 | 0:22:06 | |
they have a huge gap. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:07 | |
You are looking nonplussed. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
If someone comes to work for you, Simon, you pay them | 0:22:08 | 0:22:13 | |
at the end of the month. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:15 | |
If we are paying them at the start of the previous month, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
they have two months before their pay packet. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
No. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:21 | |
They do. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:22 | |
No, the problem, and I'm sure the reason it is paid in arrears, | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
and the problem is that actually they get paid at the beginning | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
of the month, and then a week later they get a job. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:31 | |
So actually, they end up being overpaid. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:32 | |
That is the risk of paying in advance. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
But you pay people in arrears, don't you? | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
You pay people in arrears, don't you? | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
We do, absolutely. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:39 | |
So if the state doesn't do that, it creates a problem with people | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
moving back into work. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:43 | |
That completely ignores the reality of what is happening to people. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
The question was how do you survive for six weeks without any money. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
The truth is that you beg and borrow from family and friends | 0:22:49 | 0:22:52 | |
if you are lucky enough to have them. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
You are humiliated and you are hungry, and at the end of it | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
you are tired and you are angry. | 0:22:57 | 0:22:58 | |
And we shouldn't be doing that to people in this country. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:01 | 0:23:06 | |
The person in the pale jacket. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:08 | |
The contempt that the Tories have for the poor is | 0:23:08 | 0:23:10 | |
absolutely disgusting. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
People are struggling. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:14 | 0:23:19 | |
People are struggling as it is, with all the cuts, | 0:23:19 | 0:23:21 | |
with the social care, with NHS, with working conditions, | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
zero-hours contracts. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:25 | |
And again, the fantasy world of the Tories. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
"It's OK, we're doing it calmly, we are doing it | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
la-di-da, it's fine". | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
Are you in favour of the universal benefit in principle? | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
In principle, it works. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:39 | |
It is actually better, more cost-effective, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
people know what they are getting and it is an introduction | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
into work, etc. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
But for the Tory MPs to blatantly state that this | 0:23:47 | 0:23:49 | |
is an incentive into work, and we are helping you, | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
and then they can't even do what they are supposed to do | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
in their job and vote. | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
This is what is so disgusting and contempt for the poor. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
Can I...? | 0:24:02 | 0:24:04 | |
You are a sole voice on this panel on this issue, | 0:24:04 | 0:24:08 | |
so of course you can. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
When you talk about people on low income, this is why, | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
in introducing the national living wage we will, | 0:24:13 | 0:24:14 | |
across the course of this Parliament, have increased income | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
for those at the lowest level of income by nearly 50%, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
because we want those people | 0:24:20 | 0:24:21 | |
to earn a better living. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
It's not enough, on the base level that none of the Tory | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
government seem to be on, the base level of how people | 0:24:26 | 0:24:29 | |
are living, day-to-day, trying to feed their children, | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
try to clothe them, trying to decide whether to get a school jumper | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
or actually have a tooth taken out at the dentist. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
This is the reality of life. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
One more point from the man in front in the red shirt. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
The previous speaker has said universal credit has a very | 0:24:44 | 0:24:48 | |
sinister element to it. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:53 | |
The six weeks is not there just by chance. | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
It's to force people to go to work, on low-paid work, insecure jobs. | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
So that is the reason why Chris is saying that, "Oh, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
"we have a reduction on unemployment", because being | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
faced with six weeks without money, without income to actually | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
feed your family or pay for your rent, people will take any | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
job that is offered to them. | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
And unless they take it, they lose all their benefit. | 0:25:21 | 0:25:28 | |
Sal Brinton, on that point, you said you were in favour | 0:25:28 | 0:25:30 | |
of universal credit. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:31 | |
You agree with him that the six weeks is designed to | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
force people into a job? | 0:25:34 | 0:25:35 | |
Or is that not how you see it? | 0:25:35 | 0:25:37 | |
That's not how I see it. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:38 | |
I think the principle about simplifying benefits | 0:25:38 | 0:25:40 | |
is the right idea, because before, we had problems with, | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
when you were going to the council to get your housing benefit sorted, | 0:25:43 | 0:25:46 | |
or your rent paid, and you were also having to talk to the DWP. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
So those are fine. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:51 | |
It's the technical way that these are working. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
And you are right, sir, I can remember the Conservatives | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
talking about, "We need a benefit that will make work pay". | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
This does not make work pay. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
It has become infinitely worse, and a lot of that is | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
because of the timing issue. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:07 | |
1.5 million people who are with private landlords will not have | 0:26:07 | 0:26:12 | |
housing associations or council landlords who can afford the time | 0:26:12 | 0:26:14 | |
not to do something if people get into rent arrears. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:18 | |
And it is important that we resolve those before there's | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
any further pilots. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:27 | |
All right. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
We must move on. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:29 | |
We've got a number of other questions to come to. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
Can we take this question from Chris Evans, please? | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
Is no deal within Europe really such a big issue? | 0:26:37 | 0:26:42 | |
Is no deal within Europe really such a big issue? | 0:26:42 | 0:26:44 | |
Lisa Nandy, no deal, where do you stand on it? | 0:26:44 | 0:26:50 | |
It would be a catastrophe. | 0:26:50 | 0:26:51 | |
It is a big issue. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:52 | |
It's the biggest issue that this country currently faces. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:54 | |
The reality is that if we end up coming out of the EU | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
without a deal at all, then we will see flights | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
grounded, despite what Chris was trying to say this week. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:06 | |
No, no... | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
We will see flights grounded, lorries backed up at ports, | 0:27:08 | 0:27:12 | |
food prices rising, and we will face the very real prospect of a hard | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
border with Northern Ireland. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
There is no question that no deal would be worse, | 0:27:18 | 0:27:21 | |
the worst possible deal of all. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
And increasingly now I think the Cabinet is divided | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
into two groups of people, the realists, who understand this, | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
and the fantasists who believe that no deal is a realistic prospect. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:36 | |
The truth is there is no serious, credible Cabinet minister | 0:27:36 | 0:27:41 | |
who currently believes that no deal is an option. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
And this week we had the prospect of the Brexit Secretary standing | 0:27:43 | 0:27:48 | |
at the dispatch box in the House of Commons saying, | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
"No deal is a negotiating tactic". | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
The trouble is, they can hear him over in Brussels. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:55 | |
They know that we are bluffing. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:58 | |
And it's time we stopped messing around, grandstanding and bluffing, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:00 | |
and got serious about how we are going to get the best | 0:28:00 | 0:28:05 | |
deal out of the EU, so that we can move this country | 0:28:05 | 0:28:12 | |
and this economy forward. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
Chris Evans' question, Chris Grayling, is do you think no | 0:28:14 | 0:28:17 | |
deal in Europe is ready such a bad thing? | 0:28:17 | 0:28:21 | |
I am someone who believes in free trade, so I think a free-trade | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
agreement with the European Union would be a good thing for us | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
and for the European Union. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:28 | |
Therefore, my colleagues and I will work very | 0:28:28 | 0:28:30 | |
hard to achieve that. | 0:28:30 | 0:28:31 | |
What we will not do is to adopt the Labour policy | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
which is to say deal at any cost. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:36 | |
What happens if they say give us 100 billion euros or no deal? | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
That's not our policy. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:40 | |
That's nonsense, Chris. | 0:28:40 | 0:28:41 | |
That's absolute nonsense. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:42 | |
And you know it's nonsense. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:47 | |
So we are going to work hard to deliver a sensible deal. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
We're going to work hard to have a proper, neighbourly, | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
friendly relationship with the European Union. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:58 | |
But we're also going to prepare, so we are ready | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
if that doesn't happen. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
So you would walk away in certain circumstances? | 0:29:02 | 0:29:03 | |
Theresa May was very clear in saying no deal is better than a bad deal. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
We will work hard to prepare the way for a good deal | 0:29:07 | 0:29:10 | |
with the European Union. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:11 | |
But you would all expect us to also prepare for the eventuality | 0:29:11 | 0:29:14 | |
that there is none. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:15 | |
And we will do both. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:16 | |
I don't expect that to happen. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:17 | |
I don't want it to happen, but we will make sure we're | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
ready for it if it does. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:29:22 | 0:29:23 | |
And we'll all be growing more vegetables. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
What we certainly won't have is planes sitting on the ground. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
The planes will carry on flying. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:31 | |
The idea that Spain would stop the planes landing | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
in the summer of 2019... | 0:29:33 | 0:29:34 | |
You need an agreement to do it, Chris. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:36 | |
And leave all their hotels empty, that is just for the birds. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
If it's for the birds, why did the Chancellor | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
of the Exchequer reveal it as a possibility? | 0:29:42 | 0:29:50 | |
He didn't but he actually said, I'm not going to spend lots of money | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
on it because it's not going to happen. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
It is theoretically conceivable that in a no-deal scenario, there | 0:29:55 | 0:29:57 | |
would be no air traffic moving. | 0:29:57 | 0:29:59 | |
Why did the Home Secretary say it would be unthinkable, | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
no deal would be unthinkable? | 0:30:01 | 0:30:10 | |
Our goal is to secure a deal with the European Union | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
that's good for all of us. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:14 | |
That's our goal, we are not going to admit defeat, | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
we are not going to say we are going to fail. | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
She said it would be unthinkable... | 0:30:19 | 0:30:21 | |
Wasting your energy. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:22 | |
Work together so that we can get out of the EU! | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
Why can't you work together? | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
Why are you wasting so much time fighting with each other? | 0:30:26 | 0:30:28 | |
OK, I'll come to you later on. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:30 | |
Richard Coles? | 0:30:30 | 0:30:31 | |
It's a very good question. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
I'm having flashbacks to the universal credit thing. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
We seem to have a problem with roll outs don't we, a real problem. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
It's quite a big roll out. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:42 | |
Exactly. | 0:30:42 | 0:30:43 | |
I think there's a big problem with universal credit, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:50 | |
a big problem with e borders and IT products in the BBC and the NHS, | 0:30:50 | 0:30:54 | |
a huge one with HMRC and changes to freelance status for employees, | 0:30:54 | 0:30:57 | |
moving them to employed status. | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
The biggest one of all of course is Brexit. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
My impression is sometimes that we are approaching a very | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
uncertain cliff edge actually. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:07 | |
If it is a cliff edge, I want to abseil down, | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
I don't want to jump down the cliff, and I want to see a plan. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
You will still get to the bottom pretty fast. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:17 | |
I want to get to the bottom without splatting. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
That would be preferred. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:20 | |
That's what we are aiming to give you. | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
I would like to see a little bit more detail about this. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
The question is, would no deal be a bad thing? | 0:31:25 | 0:31:27 | |
Do you think no deal would be a disaster? | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
I think I was Amber Rudd on that one and I'm not very often | 0:31:30 | 0:31:40 | |
with Amber Rudd on anything but it seems inconceiveable to me. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
I want to Abseil. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:48 | |
Sal Brinton? | 0:31:48 | 0:31:49 | |
The problem with the WTO rules which is what Chris said was the way | 0:31:49 | 0:31:53 | |
out if we have no deal, is that immediately we are legally | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
required to slap tariffs on anything coming from the EU and vice versa. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
Sorry? | 0:31:59 | 0:32:00 | |
Tariffs. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:01 | |
Well, 40% for lamb and beef and the Welsh Farmers' Union. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
We are absolutely legally obliged. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:05 | |
Cars 10%, clothes 12%, 20% for beers and spirits, | 0:32:05 | 0:32:07 | |
and that's a problem. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:11 | |
It's certainly a problem for both countries in the EU exporting to us | 0:32:11 | 0:32:15 | |
but it's a major problem for us, particularly in places | 0:32:15 | 0:32:19 | |
like Northern Ireland with the hard soft border and 90% of goods | 0:32:19 | 0:32:26 | |
But the Brexiteer beside you disagrees with all this... | 0:32:26 | 0:32:28 | |
It's not true that we have to have those. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:31 | |
We have to have the same tariffs on everyone but that doesn't | 0:32:31 | 0:32:34 | |
mean it has to be 40%. | 0:32:34 | 0:32:36 | |
We may change and say actually we are going to have 0 tariffs | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
on all foods from all countries. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:40 | |
What we can't do is say Europe, if we don't have a special agreement | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
we can't have special arrangements for Europe. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:45 | |
But it's absolutely wrong to say we have for tariffs at any level. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
They can set their own tariffs. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
The problem is, we have to set the tariffs absolutely identically | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
across the world which means we also have to undo the deals | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
that the Government are doing, beginning to talk about | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
with other countries. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
There's one deal for everything. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
You can't pick and choose once you do these rules. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:04 | |
I'm sorry it's complicated but you will agree with that. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
But that doesn't mean we have to have high tariffs. | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
A lot of people voted for Brexit because we can actually become more | 0:33:09 | 0:33:15 | |
of a free-trading nation, we don't have to have these tariffs. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
A member of the audience? | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
You, Sir, on the fourth row with black hair and a jacket on? | 0:33:22 | 0:33:26 | |
I just don't really think many people in the Labour Party | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
or the Liberal Democrats understand the basics of negotiation. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
If you go into the negotiation saying you are not prepared for no | 0:33:34 | 0:33:39 | |
deal, you are just signing up for a bad deal. | 0:33:39 | 0:33:41 | |
No you're not. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:42 | |
No you're not. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:43 | |
Lisa Nandy? | 0:33:43 | 0:33:45 | |
No you're not because we know... | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
If you shout out, we can't hear you properly because we | 0:33:48 | 0:33:51 | |
haven't got microphones. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:52 | |
People in here can hear you but millions of people | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
listening to you can't hear, which would be a pity, | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
I'm sure you would agree with that, so wait until we get | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
a microphone to you. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:01 | |
Lisa? | 0:34:01 | 0:34:03 | |
It's not an open invitation for the EU to tell us what the deal | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
is, it's the start of getting real about the fact that a no-deal | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
would be catastrophic for the EU and it would be catastrophic | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
for us as well. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
The reason why it's a completely ineffective negotiating tactic | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
is because the Government has admitted that it's only that, | 0:34:18 | 0:34:20 | |
it's a negotiating tactic. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:21 | |
The Home Secretary's come out and said, it's | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
unthinkable to have no deal. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:26 | |
That is one bit of it though isn't it? | 0:34:26 | 0:34:28 | |
The Prime Minister's rowed back on the rhetoric. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
She's a Remainer, she was always going to think think a no deal | 0:34:30 | 0:34:34 | |
wasth was no option. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:40 | |
a no deal was no option. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:41 | |
The fact is the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister are quite | 0:34:41 | 0:34:44 | |
clearly in my view waking up to the fact that no deal | 0:34:44 | 0:34:47 | |
would be an absolute disaster for this country. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:49 | |
The Brexit secretary's admitted that it is a negotiating tactic. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:51 | |
This is not an effective way to negotiate. | 0:34:51 | 0:34:53 | |
I don't agree. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:54 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:34:54 | 0:34:55 | |
Simon, the question was, is no deal really such a bad thing? | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
No deal is definitely worse than having a deal. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
As Chris said, a lot of us have voted for Brexit and free trade | 0:35:02 | 0:35:06 | |
and if we don't have free trade with Europe, then that would be | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
bad for the economy. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:10 | |
To say that it would be a catastrophe is wrong. | 0:35:10 | 0:35:12 | |
I think that's dangerous and it's an exaggeration. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:14 | |
It's very important, in a negotiation, that | 0:35:14 | 0:35:16 | |
people keep a level head. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
In my experience of negotiating, there are two golden rules. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:21 | |
One is, you are going to have days where it just looks | 0:35:21 | 0:35:24 | |
like the deal is impossible. | 0:35:24 | 0:35:25 | |
You are going to go to bed and think now there is no way | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
this is going to happen. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:30 | |
Everyone sleeps on it, they think about it and they are testing each | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
other's positions and you go back the next day and sure | 0:35:33 | 0:35:35 | |
enough the deal recedes. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:37 | |
I think we have got to be very careful not to have national | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
meltdown every time we hit an impasse because it's going | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
to happen, people will sleep on it. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:45 | |
We are not making progress... | 0:35:45 | 0:35:46 | |
Are you confident in the way negotiations have been | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
handled by the Government? | 0:35:48 | 0:35:51 | |
I think it's very difficult to judge from outside and I think actually | 0:35:51 | 0:35:56 | |
trying to negotiate in public, that makes it harder for both | 0:35:56 | 0:35:58 | |
sides to compromise. | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
So I think we have got to be careful about making judgments | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
about conversations that are happening that | 0:36:05 | 0:36:06 | |
we are not party to. | 0:36:06 | 0:36:07 | |
What about the things that are said publicly? | 0:36:07 | 0:36:09 | |
You are a Conservative. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:13 | |
When you look at the way that the Cabinet says different | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
things, Lisa was referring to, does that disconcert you? | 0:36:16 | 0:36:19 | |
No. | 0:36:19 | 0:36:20 | |
Is that reasonable? | 0:36:20 | 0:36:21 | |
Actually, you know what, having a debate between optimistic | 0:36:21 | 0:36:23 | |
and enthusiastic Boris Johnson and a cautious and Conservative | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
Philip Hammond, having that debate in public is not a bad thing | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
and finding the middle ground between them is actually a very | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
sensible way to proceed. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
The idea that we all have to, as a nation, have one idea and not | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
have any differences means that we won't get the best deal, | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
we have got to talk about these things. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
If we don't have a credible plan to walk away with, then we are not | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
going into a negotiation, we are going into ask | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
the price and we can only bluff, plead and beg. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
We have to have a plan. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
We don't have one. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:56 | |
For a no-deal scenario because if we don't, | 0:36:56 | 0:36:58 | |
we are not going to get the best deal. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:00 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
The person at the very back there? | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
Yes? | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
You, at the back in blue? | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
Mr Grayling, if you genuinely have a Plan B for how things | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
would work under WTO rules, why don't you publish it and show | 0:37:12 | 0:37:19 | |
the EU that you are serious and convince us that | 0:37:19 | 0:37:21 | |
you have the detail? | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
Well, the answer to that is that we are actively | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
working on that plan. | 0:37:27 | 0:37:28 | |
I'm doing so in my own area. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:32 | |
We'll bring forward details when we need to, but we are not | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
approaching this on the basis that we are going | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
to need to do that. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
Right now, we are working to try and secure the best deal for Britain. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:44 | |
Yes, of course we are making contingency plans and we'll be very | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
clear, I'm looking at the whole issue of transportation on ports | 0:37:47 | 0:37:49 | |
to make sure we are ready for that. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
I'm an optimist, I expect us to do a deal, I expect this to be | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
something that works for both sides. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:57 | |
We are the European Union's biggest export market, | 0:37:57 | 0:37:59 | |
it would be hugely damaging to businesses in France, | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
Germany Belgium and the Netherlands if there wasn't a free trade deal | 0:38:02 | 0:38:05 | |
and that's why I'm absolutely certain there would be. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
You would expect us to do the work we are doing now and we'll be | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
talking about it in due course, to make sure there is | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
an alternative route in the unlikely event we'll have | 0:38:15 | 0:38:17 | |
to take it. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:18 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:19 | |
The woman there? | 0:38:19 | 0:38:24 | |
From what I'm seeing, outside look in, it looks | 0:38:24 | 0:38:28 | |
like the Tories can't even manage their own party, | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
so how can we possibly trust you to take us into Brexit | 0:38:31 | 0:38:34 | |
with a good deal? | 0:38:34 | 0:38:35 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:36 | |
Well, you... | 0:38:36 | 0:38:37 | |
So I think Simon's point is right, we are not a group of clones sitting | 0:38:37 | 0:38:41 | |
around the Cabinet table, we have Discussions, debates, | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
differences of opinion, we reach a common position, | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
Theresa May's speech in Florence a couple of weeks ago | 0:38:45 | 0:38:50 | |
was very much a result, a United Cabinet discussion, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
she spoke for all of us and she's set out the path we are taking. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
Chris, how much time have we got? | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
One thing that concerns me, we are talking about very detailed | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
work and we don't have much time to do it. | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
I was talking to an official the to other day who's been seconded | 0:39:04 | 0:39:07 | |
to the Department for Brexit and she was saying the issue | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
they are finding is they have ten years' work to do in less | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
than two years. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:14 | |
And that the kind of things you are talking about sound | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
like luxuries if you are working to a time scale that's | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
that ungenerous. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
All I can say, within the Department of Transport, we are not trying | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
to do ten years' work in two years, what we are working to do | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
is perfectly achievable, I hope... | 0:39:28 | 0:39:29 | |
The man in the brown jacket? | 0:39:29 | 0:39:31 | |
Yes, the speaker on the front row just said she can't trust | 0:39:31 | 0:39:34 | |
the Conservative Party. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
I can't trust Lisa and the Labour and Baroness Brinton | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
in the Liberal Democrats because all they want to do | 0:39:39 | 0:39:42 | |
is connive a situation to create a second referendum. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:44 | |
What you've got to do is... | 0:39:44 | 0:39:45 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
What you've got to do is what the people have already said. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:53 | |
1.4 million people want the leave the EU, that's what we have got | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
to get on with and do. | 0:39:56 | 0:39:57 | |
Do you think it's straight forward or do you think it's a difficult | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
task the Government faces? | 0:40:00 | 0:40:01 | |
Of course it's difficult. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:02 | |
It's a very complicated issue but you can only | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
negotiate with people if they want to negotiate. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:06 | |
How long do we have to give the EU? | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
How long do we have to give Mr Juncker to start saying | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
things that are reasonable? | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
All I can see is unreasonable comments from the EU,er in not | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
taking us seriously, if I was the PM, I would give | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
them a weeks' notice and I would leave the following day. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
One more point then we must go on. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
The woman in pink? | 0:40:28 | 0:40:29 | |
You? | 0:40:29 | 0:40:30 | |
Ever since the no-deal... | 0:40:30 | 0:40:31 | |
Sorry, we are getting very confused in this studio, | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
it's too difficult to see people. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:35 | |
Hold on. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:36 | |
The woman up there? | 0:40:36 | 0:40:37 | |
We've had our vote, we've had the referendum, | 0:40:37 | 0:40:47 | |
I don't believe we should have a second referendum, | 0:40:55 | 0:40:57 | |
I think the Labour and the Liberal | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
Party are pushing and some, dare I say Conservatives, | 0:40:59 | 0:41:01 | |
are pushing for a second referendum. | 0:41:01 | 0:41:07 | |
Let's get on with it, let's get behind it, it's a very, | 0:41:07 | 0:41:09 | |
very difficult thing, probably one of the most | 0:41:09 | 0:41:11 | |
difficult things we've asked a Government to do, | 0:41:11 | 0:41:13 | |
but it could be very exciting. | 0:41:13 | 0:41:15 | |
I believe it could be very exciting for this country and I'm appealing | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
to the Labour and the Liberal Democrats. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:19 | |
I'm actually a Liberal Democrat at heart and I'm appealing | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
to you to get behind the Government to work together, to work together | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
for the good of this country, not to keep bickering. | 0:41:25 | 0:41:27 | |
All right, we have heard your point, madam - stop bickering. | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
Lisa, just answer that? | 0:41:30 | 0:41:31 | |
I just want to say to you, that if we were trying | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
to have a second referendum or somehow stop from leaving | 0:41:34 | 0:41:36 | |
the European Union, then we wouldn't have voted to trigger Article 50. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
I voted to trigger Article 50 despite the fact that I went out | 0:41:39 | 0:41:42 | |
and campaigned for Remain. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:43 | |
We lost the referendum and now, our job, in my view, | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
is to get the best deal for this country. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:48 | |
But I will not apologise for saying to people like Chris that still now, | 0:41:48 | 0:41:52 | |
after six months after triggering Article 50 with a clock ticking, | 0:41:52 | 0:41:54 | |
we should not be messing around saying we have got this great | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
negotiating position, no deal, it's not going to happen, | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
but don't worry because Brussels hasn't worked it out, | 0:42:00 | 0:42:02 | |
it's just not good enough, we need to get serious. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
Hands up. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:06 | |
I can't bring you all in, I'm really sorry, we have this | 0:42:06 | 0:42:12 | |
debate week after week after week where we go around the country | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
and hear what people think with different views | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
as the negotiations go on and we'll no doubt come back to it. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:21 | |
But, I want to keep a variety of questions in Question Time. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
We have got a question from Linda Forbes that | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
I would like to take, please? | 0:42:26 | 0:42:27 | |
As an obese taxpayer, should I be less deserving of NHS | 0:42:27 | 0:42:34 | |
treatment than people who take other risks with their health? | 0:42:34 | 0:42:39 | |
A very, very interesting question. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
This is in the light of an NHS statement, | 0:42:43 | 0:42:50 | |
an authority just near here, that not only if you | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
were technically obese but if you were a smoker, | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
you could be breathalysed to see if you'd stopped smoking before | 0:42:57 | 0:42:59 | |
you got medical treatment. | 0:42:59 | 0:43:01 | |
Richard Coles, what do you make of that? | 0:43:01 | 0:43:06 | |
When I had a medical for Strictly, I discovered I was 0.4 short | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
of obese myself which came as rather a shock. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
I'm happy to say my paso doble saw me lose a stone, | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
probably through fear more than anything else. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:19 | |
I don't think the NHS should be rolling that one out. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:22 | |
I'm horrified at the thought that people who are classified as obese | 0:43:22 | 0:43:27 | |
might have to be further back in the queue for NHS provision. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:31 | |
I understand of course that provision's always got to be, | 0:43:31 | 0:43:33 | |
you know, they are not limitless. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
But I do think it's fundamentally important, it's a fundamental | 0:43:36 | 0:43:38 | |
principle of the NHS and a fundamental principle | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
of living in a civilised society that we all have an amiable state | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
as it comes simply from being human beings and that there is no priority | 0:43:45 | 0:43:49 | |
so I would hate to see health care meeted out in that kind of way. | 0:43:49 | 0:43:56 | |
so I would hate to see health care meted out in that kind of way. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
Linda Forbes, have you had direct experience of being warned | 0:43:59 | 0:44:02 | |
about this in terms of operations or any medical treatment? | 0:44:02 | 0:44:04 | |
No, but I have lost over six stone in the last year... | 0:44:04 | 0:44:07 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:08 | |
Question Time is not a slimmers club. | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
But we want to know the secret! | 0:44:10 | 0:44:15 | |
I've worked with other people through NHS health unlocked | 0:44:15 | 0:44:18 | |
and realised just how difficult it is to lose weight | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
and actually for some people who're very overweight, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:25 | |
getting access to operations that will enable them to exercise again | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
is being restricted which actually ties them into even more ill health. | 0:44:29 | 0:44:33 | |
OK, Sal Brinton? | 0:44:33 | 0:44:38 | |
Well, I think that's the absolute conundrum. | 0:44:38 | 0:44:39 | |
If help was offered at the start, and there was a sort of a line | 0:44:39 | 0:44:43 | |
and you could see very clearly, but I know from other people | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
who have been told either they've got to stop smoking or they've got | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
to lose weight before they can even go on to the waiting list, | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
it really doesn't help and can cause some very serious problems. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:55 | |
Is it moral to do that? | 0:44:55 | 0:44:57 | |
No, I don't believe it is, I think Richard was right. | 0:44:57 | 0:44:59 | |
The NHS is there for everyone. | 0:44:59 | 0:45:01 | |
We pay our taxes. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:02 | |
It's part of the safety net of our society. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
It's the one thing that the vast majority of people in this country | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
feel we should stick with. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:08 | |
I know the Americans don't understand it and often complain | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
on our behalf about our NHS, but at the end of the | 0:45:11 | 0:45:14 | |
day it's wonderful. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:18 | |
Part of its problem at the moment and one of my worries about some | 0:45:18 | 0:45:21 | |
of these rules that seem to be being created are that the NHS | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
is really struggling for cash. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:25 | |
So IVF is often being removed, and I know in my hometown of Watford | 0:45:25 | 0:45:29 | |
we have just had a major fight trying to keep a respite centre | 0:45:29 | 0:45:32 | |
for the most severely disabled and ill children open, | 0:45:32 | 0:45:34 | |
because there just aren't the funds to do it. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:38 | |
And my real worry would be, I accept the health principle, | 0:45:38 | 0:45:40 | |
but if it then becomes a delaying tactic to be used to not go | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
ahead with operations, that's worrying. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:47 | |
We must fund the NHS properly. | 0:45:47 | 0:45:53 | |
This is about particular candidates for treatment. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:54 | |
Chris Grayling, what do you think? | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
I struggle with the idea that somebody would be denied | 0:45:57 | 0:45:59 | |
treatment, I really do. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
To say to somebody who smoked, or somebody who is obese, | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
"You may not have treatment", I really struggle with that idea. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:09 | |
I think perhaps the only circumstance in which it becomes | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
more of an issue is if somebody is systematically refusing to do | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
something the doctors again and again are advising them to do. | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
But to say to someone who walks through the door, | 0:46:18 | 0:46:22 | |
"Because you smoked, you may not have an operation, | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
"because you are obese, you may not | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
have an operation..." | 0:46:26 | 0:46:27 | |
Of course, the challenge that the health service faces | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
is that demand on it is growing all the time. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
We have an ageing population, more and more people seeking treatment, | 0:46:32 | 0:46:34 | |
the number of people going into A departments every year | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
is rising up and up and up. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:38 | |
But that should not be a reason for us to deny people treatment. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
The National Health Service is a national health service. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
Is the NHS in Hertfordshire, for instance, which is doing this, | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
entitled, legally, to say what they've said? | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
Well, actually the NHS in reality has always operated | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
to a degree at a local level. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
Decisions are taken locally, decisions are taken | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
by clinicians locally. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:57 | |
And that's probably for the best because circumstances do vary | 0:46:57 | 0:47:00 | |
in different parts of the country. | 0:47:00 | 0:47:02 | |
So even though you don't like it, you can't, as a government, | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
have any control over it? | 0:47:04 | 0:47:06 | |
We can't step in. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:07 | |
I would hope those people... | 0:47:07 | 0:47:08 | |
The local decisions about commissioning services are now | 0:47:08 | 0:47:10 | |
taken by organisations that are led by clinicians. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:12 | |
I would still hope those people would take a step back and not | 0:47:12 | 0:47:15 | |
actually say to somebody, "You won't get treatment". | 0:47:15 | 0:47:23 | |
I will come to you there, the woman with spectacles, | 0:47:23 | 0:47:26 | |
and then you over there. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
Me, thank you. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:28 | |
Chris Grayling, to say that you struggle with somebody | 0:47:28 | 0:47:30 | |
being turned away from the health service, and these are local | 0:47:30 | 0:47:33 | |
decisions to be made, Hertfordshire CCG, which is the one | 0:47:33 | 0:47:36 | |
you are referring to, where I live in Hertfordshire, | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
are faced with having to make more and more cuts. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
So if you are asking them to make ?55 million more of cuts | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
than they already have, then you are responsible, | 0:47:45 | 0:47:49 | |
not the local clinicians. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
You are responsible, as the government, for asking them | 0:47:53 | 0:47:57 | |
to make cuts, and for turning people away for basic treatment now. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:04 | |
But what do you say to the argument that they are entitled to ration, | 0:48:04 | 0:48:07 | |
in effect, their health care, on the grounds of | 0:48:07 | 0:48:09 | |
obesity and smoking? | 0:48:09 | 0:48:10 | |
That's the issue that is raised. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:12 | |
I think I agree with Reverend Richard Coles, | 0:48:12 | 0:48:14 | |
the health service is the jewel of the crown of this country. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
It's something that everybody should be proud of and should | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
have equal access to. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:24 | |
The trouble with the society we are living in at the moment, | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
it's becoming more and more unequal. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:29 | |
And this is a prime example of that inequality. | 0:48:29 | 0:48:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:48:35 | 0:48:41 | |
I mean... | 0:48:41 | 0:48:42 | |
It's actually a really difficult question, | 0:48:42 | 0:48:47 | |
to what extent are we responsible for our own health? | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
I was thinking about the answer to this as everyone was talking. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
What I thought, I put myself in the position of the person | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
who would have to tell someone that "Actually, I'm really sorry, | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
"you can't have this treatment because you are overweight". | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
I thought, "Would I ever want to be in that situation"? | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
And not in a million years. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
Should we put other people in that situation? | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
Of course we shouldn't. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
OK. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:12 | |
The man with spectacles, and then I will come to you, Lisa. | 0:49:12 | 0:49:15 | |
We often talk in terms of substance abuse, | 0:49:15 | 0:49:17 | |
for example like heroin abuse, and addiction, that people | 0:49:17 | 0:49:20 | |
are victims of their own addiction. | 0:49:20 | 0:49:23 | |
And it could be said similarly that smokers are victims | 0:49:23 | 0:49:26 | |
of their own addiction. | 0:49:26 | 0:49:31 | |
And it's only a small step, then, to say that people | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
who are overweight are victims of their own addiction to food. | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
But surely it comes down to a certain extent to personal | 0:49:37 | 0:49:40 | |
responsibility, and people surely have to be seen in some ways to be | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
helping themselves to help the NHS to help them. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:49:46 | 0:49:54 | |
The woman in pink. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
I think it's discrimination. | 0:49:58 | 0:49:59 | |
How can you deny one person one thing in one area and another person | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
of an equal situation be allowed that same treatment in another area? | 0:50:02 | 0:50:08 | |
But also its double standards. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
You're denying somebody treatment for consuming food, or cigarettes | 0:50:12 | 0:50:14 | |
that they are paying taxes on. | 0:50:14 | 0:50:17 | |
It doesn't make any sense to me. | 0:50:17 | 0:50:20 | |
Lisa Nandy. | 0:50:20 | 0:50:21 | |
Actually, I agree with what Simon said. | 0:50:21 | 0:50:23 | |
There are a group of people in this country who do face restrictions | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
on their health care, and that's asylum seekers. | 0:50:26 | 0:50:28 | |
And actually, as well as being very immoral, in my view, | 0:50:28 | 0:50:34 | |
and creating some absolutely terrible results, the impact | 0:50:34 | 0:50:36 | |
of those regulations has been to really damage the relationship | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
between doctor and patient. | 0:50:39 | 0:50:46 | |
Because if you are the person who is rationing health care, | 0:50:46 | 0:50:49 | |
you cannot then claim to be the person who first does no harm, | 0:50:49 | 0:50:52 | |
and who is primarily responsible for their care. | 0:50:52 | 0:50:54 | |
Before I came into Parliament, I used to work with | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
homeless young people. | 0:50:57 | 0:51:01 | |
And I absolutely agree with the sentiment that we all | 0:51:01 | 0:51:07 | |
have a responsibility to take personal responsibility | 0:51:07 | 0:51:09 | |
for our own health care and for keeping ourselves well | 0:51:09 | 0:51:11 | |
and fit and healthy. | 0:51:11 | 0:51:12 | |
But many of those young people would end up with drug | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
and alcohol problems that they were then treated for. | 0:51:15 | 0:51:17 | |
And it would then become very, very apparent that the drug | 0:51:17 | 0:51:21 | |
and alcohol abuse was simply a way of self-medicating because of | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
underlying mental health problems that hadn't | 0:51:24 | 0:51:25 | |
been previously diagnosed. | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
And so my worry is that if we even begin to start discussing taking | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
this approach more generally in the National Health Service, | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
we will go down a very, very slippery slope that will stop | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
people getting the help that they need when they need it. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
Also, we all have our addictions, don't we? | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
There are the obvious ones there, but we are all addicted | 0:51:43 | 0:51:46 | |
to driving our cars, aren't we, with the consequences | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
for health and emissions, and also through people getting | 0:51:48 | 0:51:50 | |
into accidents, something the health service picks up | 0:51:50 | 0:51:52 | |
without question, but we needn't do that. | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
The man at the back, and then last questions. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:57 | |
There is lots of talk about the morality of | 0:51:57 | 0:52:03 | |
rationing health care, but what about the morality | 0:52:03 | 0:52:05 | |
of taking money out of people's pockets to pay for other people's | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
poor lifestyle choices that are completely their choice? | 0:52:08 | 0:52:10 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:52:10 | 0:52:11 | |
Since you have a hand up, I will come to you, | 0:52:11 | 0:52:13 | |
sir, in the front row. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
As the cigarettes and obesity, why don't the government ban | 0:52:16 | 0:52:20 | |
cigarettes and try to close up fast food stores so that people | 0:52:20 | 0:52:23 | |
don't have the things that make them obese? | 0:52:23 | 0:52:27 | |
OK, well, there is a prescription. | 0:52:27 | 0:52:31 | |
Is it because of the taxes they get off the cigarettes? | 0:52:31 | 0:52:36 | |
Is it because you get too much tax off cigarettes? | 0:52:36 | 0:52:40 | |
Banning things is a big step. | 0:52:40 | 0:52:41 | |
Banning fast food, I think, would be pretty unpopular | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
in an awful lot of places in this country, actually. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
OK. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
We've got four or five minutes left. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
This question from Patricia Broderick, please. | 0:52:51 | 0:52:55 | |
Are schools overstepping the mark when they send home alarm | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
clocks with their pupils? | 0:52:59 | 0:53:07 | |
A mysterious question maybe to some of you. | 0:53:07 | 0:53:08 | |
It is just one school, it has to be said, but it | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
does go to the heart of a particular problem. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
A school in Twickenham, London, which decided | 0:53:14 | 0:53:15 | |
to give alarm clocks to its children, allegedly so. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:17 | |
It says instead of using their iPhones to wake | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
them up in the morning, they have a proper alarm clock | 0:53:20 | 0:53:22 | |
and turn their iPhones off. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:23 | |
And it goes to the heart of this whole business about children, | 0:53:23 | 0:53:26 | |
young people and middle-aged people, and no doubt people around this | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
table, being addicted to the iPhone. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:30 | |
Richard Coles, are you addicted to your iPhone? | 0:53:30 | 0:53:32 | |
Do you use an alarm clock in the morning? | 0:53:32 | 0:53:34 | |
Maybe you should, if you don't. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
Well, I rise with the lark anyway, with a song in my heart! | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
I would hesitate to say I am addicted to my mobile, | 0:53:40 | 0:53:45 | |
but I do have a very active life on social media, which I have | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
mixed feelings about. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:52 | |
Partly, I think, I was in a restaurant the other day | 0:53:52 | 0:53:54 | |
and there were two people sitting on the next table who were having | 0:53:54 | 0:53:57 | |
dinner together but spent the whole time on their phones, | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
which seemed to me to be not the ideal way to | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
treat your dinner date. | 0:54:02 | 0:54:04 | |
But on the other hand, it is a place where people meet. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
One of the things I love about social media, it's a place | 0:54:07 | 0:54:10 | |
where you really can encounter a whole broad range of people, | 0:54:10 | 0:54:12 | |
and some of those encounters are glancing and brief, | 0:54:12 | 0:54:14 | |
but can be extremely rewarding and lead onto other | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
sorts of exciting things. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:18 | |
And also, if you want to get a kid off an iPhone or an iPad | 0:54:18 | 0:54:21 | |
or whatever it may be, good luck with that. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
I'm a school governor and it's a perpetual question that | 0:54:24 | 0:54:26 | |
comes up on our agenda. | 0:54:26 | 0:54:29 | |
It's an extremely difficult thing to do. | 0:54:29 | 0:54:31 | |
Have you thought about issuing alarm clocks to your children at school? | 0:54:31 | 0:54:34 | |
No, I haven't, actually. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:35 | |
Put it on the agenda. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:36 | |
Simon Wolfson. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
Funnily enough, I, for religious reasons, I turn my phone off | 0:54:38 | 0:54:41 | |
on Friday night at sundown and I keep it off until | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
Saturday nightfall. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
And I've got to say, that is an incredibly | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
liberating thing to do. | 0:54:50 | 0:54:51 | |
So I don't know whether schools... | 0:54:51 | 0:54:54 | |
This is for religious reasons? | 0:54:54 | 0:54:55 | |
Yes, it's the Jewish sabbath. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:57 | |
So it's a very liberating thing to do, and what you realise is that | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
actually it's not a life-support machine and you can live for 24 | 0:55:00 | 0:55:03 | |
hours without your phone. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:04 | |
And I think every so often people should... | 0:55:04 | 0:55:08 | |
Somebody is saying they can't. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
I would recommend trying it. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
One weekend, turn your phone off for 24 hours and see what happens. | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
You'll have a much nicer weekend. | 0:55:17 | 0:55:18 | |
Lisa Nandy, do you see this as a real, serious problem... | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
Serious problem with...? | 0:55:24 | 0:55:25 | |
With young people? | 0:55:25 | 0:55:27 | |
I was going to say, good luck with getting | 0:55:27 | 0:55:31 | |
politicians off their iPhones. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:33 | |
Maybe if we turned them off for 24 hours we might get together | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
and solve the problems with Brexit. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:37 | |
I think that there is a danger in this debate that | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
for all of the many, well versed reasons why it is a good | 0:55:40 | 0:55:43 | |
idea to make sure that young people are out in the real world | 0:55:43 | 0:55:47 | |
and meeting people who think differently from them, and are not | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
in the bubble of social media, where we tend to seek out people | 0:55:50 | 0:55:53 | |
who have the same opinions as us that are self-reinforcing. | 0:55:53 | 0:55:57 | |
All of those things are well rehearsed and I think they are true, | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
but we shouldn't forget as well that technology has been | 0:56:00 | 0:56:03 | |
an enormous force for good for children and young people. | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
The charity ChildLine says that one of the reasons that they have seen | 0:56:05 | 0:56:09 | |
a rise in the number of young people coming to them for help about child | 0:56:09 | 0:56:12 | |
abuse is because when I was growing up you had to pick up a phone, | 0:56:12 | 0:56:16 | |
probably had to find a phone box and ring them. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
Now, young people can e-mail, they can contact through Facebook, | 0:56:19 | 0:56:21 | |
they can contact through WhatsApp. | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
There are so many ways for them to do it that actually for those | 0:56:25 | 0:56:29 | |
young people who need a lifeline, they have found that having | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
an iPhone, or access to technology has been it. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:38 | |
So I think we should be really, really careful here not to say | 0:56:38 | 0:56:41 | |
that it is just a force for bad, because for many of those | 0:56:41 | 0:56:44 | |
young people it has been an absolute lifeline. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:46 | |
Very briefly, you, sir, on the right. | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
The man on the gangway. | 0:56:48 | 0:56:49 | |
With technology, it's become an integral part of our lives, | 0:56:49 | 0:56:51 | |
especially as young people. | 0:56:51 | 0:56:53 | |
I'm only 17. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:54 | |
But it's becoming a societal thing, like the invention of the Guttenberg | 0:56:54 | 0:56:57 | |
press and the popularisation of the book, it's helping us | 0:56:57 | 0:57:01 | |
to spread ideas, become more connected with the wider world, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:05 | |
which is what we need in these trying times. | 0:57:05 | 0:57:08 | |
Technological addiction is a very common thing. | 0:57:08 | 0:57:09 | |
In the 1700s there was mass book reading and book | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
reading was a social thing, and we all move past it | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
with the next invention. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:16 | |
It's a natural re-occurring cycle within human nature and history. | 0:57:16 | 0:57:21 | |
OK, thank you very much. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:22 | |
Chris Grayling, briefly, if you would, because we need | 0:57:22 | 0:57:24 | |
an alarm clock because we're running out of time. | 0:57:24 | 0:57:29 | |
I suspect in a lot of cases that neither an alarm clock nor a mobile | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
phone would wake up many a teenager. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:34 | |
But the reality is social media and mobile phones | 0:57:34 | 0:57:36 | |
are a force for good. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:37 | |
They can also be a force for bad. | 0:57:37 | 0:57:39 | |
There are some real issues in social media that I think | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
as a society we have to address. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
Sal Brinton. | 0:57:44 | 0:57:45 | |
And therefore the key is to make sure that families discuss amongst | 0:57:45 | 0:57:48 | |
themselves about how young people use their mobile phones | 0:57:48 | 0:57:50 | |
and when they use them. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
And that's the most important thing. | 0:57:52 | 0:57:54 | |
I am co-chair of the all-party group on bullying, and cyber-bullying, | 0:57:54 | 0:57:56 | |
late at night on iPhones in bedrooms, is a real problem. | 0:57:56 | 0:58:04 | |
OK, thank you very much indeed. | 0:58:04 | 0:58:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:06 | 0:58:12 | |
Our hour is up. | 0:58:12 | 0:58:15 | |
Next Thursday we are going to be in Portsmouth. | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
We've got Jacob Rees-Mogg, Shami Chakrabarti, Alex Salmond | 0:58:18 | 0:58:20 | |
among those on the panel. | 0:58:20 | 0:58:21 | |
The week after that, Kilmarnock. | 0:58:21 | 0:58:23 | |
The journalist Owen Jones, Kezia Dugdale, who used | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
to lead Scottish Labour is on the panel there. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:28 | |
If you'd like to come to either Portsmouth or Kilmarnock... | 0:58:28 | 0:58:37 | |
Here, in Dunstable, my thanks to our panellists, | 0:58:51 | 0:58:54 | |
and to all of you who came to take part in this programme. | 0:58:54 | 0:58:58 | |
I hope you enjoyed it. | 0:58:58 | 0:58:59 | |
And for you at home, see you again next Thursday. | 0:58:59 | 0:59:02 | |
Good night. | 0:59:02 | 0:59:04 |