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Tonight, we're in Swansea, and welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
And with us here this evening, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:13 | |
the Conservative MP and an ardent campaigner for Britain | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
to leave the EU, Bernard Jenkin. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
The Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, | 0:00:20 | 0:00:22 | |
who challenged Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership, Owen Smith. | 0:00:22 | 0:00:27 | |
English-born but fully committed to Wales, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:29 | |
the leader of Plaid Cymru at Westminster, Liz Saville Roberts. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
Kate Andrew, journalist, commentator, | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
who says Brexit will work if it gives us free trade. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
And the former Blue Peter and Top Of The Pops presenter, | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
proud to admit he's obsessed with politics, Richard Bacon. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:47 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
Thank you very much indeed. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:01 | |
And as always, of course, you can take issue with what's said here, | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
either by the audience or by the panel, by using our hashtag #BBCQT | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
on Twitter, on Facebook. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
You can text 83981, | 0:01:10 | 0:01:11 | |
and the red button will tell you what others are saying. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
I should say, the panel, of course, | 0:01:14 | 0:01:15 | |
as always, don't know the questions in advance, | 0:01:15 | 0:01:18 | |
and they don't know this one, which comes from Kelvin Harles, please. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
Kelvin. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
Would Brexit make an ideal theme for a modern Christmas pantomime? | 0:01:23 | 0:01:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
Oh, yes, it would! | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:01:36 | 0:01:37 | |
Oh, yes, it would! Owen Smith? | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
Well, yes is the short answer. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
I'm not sure which would be the end of the horse - | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
the Tories or the DUP - | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
but the last week has been an extraordinary pantomime. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
It's a very good word to describe it. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
We all thought it was a deal done. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
We all thought there was going to be resolution | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
of the Irish border question. | 0:01:57 | 0:01:58 | |
We thought it because the Tories were telling us the deal was done. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
They were briefing straightaway on Monday that they'd sorted it out, | 0:02:01 | 0:02:05 | |
and it was all in the bag. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:06 | |
The Irish thought it was all sorted out, | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
and then, of course, Arlene Foster rang up at the last minute, | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
the leader of the DUP, and pulled the plug. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
And it's been, unfortunately, symbolic, | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
that pantomime performance, of the entire way in which | 0:02:16 | 0:02:19 | |
the Tories have been running the Brexit negotiations | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
from start to finish. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:24 | |
You know, I'm deeply worried that we're not going to get a deal. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
I hope we're going to get something in the next couple of days | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
that will allow us on to the next stage, | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
because we need to get to the next stage of the talks, | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
but the reality is, if they continue like this, then it is all | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
going to end, not in the laughter of a pantomime, but in tears. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
OK. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:43 | |
I wonder who Widow Twankey is. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:50 | |
Bernard Jenkin? | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
I think it will probably... | 0:02:52 | 0:02:53 | |
-It'll be far too long for a pantomime. -Oh, really? | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
I think people would get far too bored with it. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
I'm afraid it's going to go on | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
for at least another sort of 18 months or so, | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
so I think we need to stay calm. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
European negotiations are always very last-minute. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:12 | |
The important thing is, Owen, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
that we do actually deliver the referendum result. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
We don't try and reverse it. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:17 | |
And you're part of a team in the Labour Party that are trying | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
to pull Jeremy Corbyn back from his manifesto commitments | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
-to honour the Leave vote. -I don't know what you mean! | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
You want another referendum. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
You didn't vote for Article 50. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:29 | |
You didn't even want to respect the referendum result to start with. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
And we are going to fulfil our manifesto commitments. | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
We're going to take back control over our laws, our borders, | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
our money, and our right to create new trading relationships | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
with the growing part of the world, | 0:03:43 | 0:03:45 | |
the 90% of the economic part of the world | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
that is growing much faster than the EU, | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
because that's where our long-term prosperity lies. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:51 | |
Kelvin, let me just ask you, | 0:03:57 | 0:03:59 | |
do you think it's turning into a pantomime? | 0:03:59 | 0:04:01 | |
It is a farce. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
It's unreal. | 0:04:04 | 0:04:05 | |
There doesn't seem to be... | 0:04:05 | 0:04:07 | |
..any direction from any source at the moment. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
I think what we need is a Prince Charming to come along | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
and save the country. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:19 | |
-RICHARD BACON: -Did you vote for it? | 0:04:19 | 0:04:20 | |
Perhaps marry an American celebrity, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
and thereby secure a good trade deal with America, perhaps. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
OK. Richard Bacon. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
Did you vote for Brexit? | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
-No. -No. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
I think... I suppose, with a pantomime, | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
when you go to see a pantomime, | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
at least you more or less know what it is you're going to get, | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
and now I look at Brexit, and there were | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
lots of good reasons to vote for Brexit - | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
I'm sure people in this audience sincerely voted for Brexit | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
for sensible reasons. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:48 | |
It was not something I voted for. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
But I actually now think that whichever side you voted on, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
it turns out that no-one really knew anything about it, | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
and that it's turned out to be so much more... | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:05:02 | 0:05:03 | |
..so much more complicated than anyone thought. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
And it's astonishing, when you look at the Irish border question | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
that we're talking about this week, | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
that no-one seems to have thought about these consequences. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:21 | |
And I was looking, Bernard - I know you're part of Vote Leave - | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
and I was looking at some literature that you put your name to | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
earlier today... It was during the campaign, I should say. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
Because I don't remember any reference to the Irish border | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
during the campaign. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:34 | |
Do you remember that? During the campaign for Brexit. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
I looked at a letter you wrote, and it was all about | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
the NHS getting money, and scientific research getting money, | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
and we're going to take back powers and have less red tape, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
and I couldn't see the Irish border in there anywhere, | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
and I think it's one of the many things, many intractable problems, | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
that have come up from Brexit that no-one thought about beforehand. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
Did you think about it, Bernard? | 0:05:57 | 0:05:58 | |
Let him answer him. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
Is he right - it wasn't in your stuff? | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
It was never an issue, and it shouldn't be an issue, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
because there's not going to be a hard border in Northern Ireland. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
Who says it shouldn't be an issue? | 0:06:09 | 0:06:11 | |
For example, the Permanent Secretary who actually runs the HMRC | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
that would collect the customs revenue at the border | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, he has said, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
his consistent advice to ministers, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
he's told a select committee quite recently, | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
consistent advice to ministers, whatever circumstances, | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
whatever the arrangements, there is no need for a hard border. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
-The former Prime Minister of the... -What would a hard border mean? | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
There's no need for new infrastructure at the border, | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
no need to stop lorries at the border, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
-no need to put up a checkpoint at the border. -How do you stop...? | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
And the former Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland, | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
Bertie Ahern, he agrees. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
He says you don't need to have a hard border. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
This is a manufactured row. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
-By the DUP? -No, by the... | 0:06:49 | 0:06:50 | |
The people who are keeping you in power. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
By the Government of Ireland and by the EU, | 0:06:53 | 0:06:55 | |
who are trying to leverage more money and more concessions | 0:06:55 | 0:06:59 | |
-out of the British Government. -What about the DUP? | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
Well, the DUP is actually supporting the British Government, | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
and the British Government is supporting the DUP. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
There is agreement between them. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
Liz Saville Roberts. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:09 | |
The DUP has this Government dancing to the tune of a Lambeg drum. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
But I'm sure, Bernard, you know as well as I that the customs union | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
requires a solid barrier if we are beyond the customs union. | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
No, it does not. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:21 | |
It does in the sense of goods being moved across it. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:23 | |
No, it doesn't. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:24 | |
Now, my party is the only one here | 0:07:24 | 0:07:26 | |
that has been consistent in its argument | 0:07:26 | 0:07:28 | |
that the best deal for Wales, and to be perfectly honest, | 0:07:28 | 0:07:32 | |
the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom, | 0:07:32 | 0:07:35 | |
is to remain in the single market and the customs union. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
And no-one voted to leave that. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
Nobody voted to leave that. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:43 | |
Many people were sold a tissue of lies. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
And in all honesty, we need certainty now. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
Kate. Let's get Kate Andrews in. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
There are pros and cons to any vote, especially one of this magnitude, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
and the British people have voted to leave the European Union. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
If you decide to stay in the single market and customs union, | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
you're basically cutting yourself off | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
from one of the biggest pros of Brexit, | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
which is that you get to create free trade deals around the world. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
So, I think that would be a very negative thing to do | 0:08:08 | 0:08:10 | |
if you want to actually capitalise on the positive sides of Brexit. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
I appreciate that there are going to be some hurdles along the way. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
To Kelvin's point, | 0:08:16 | 0:08:17 | |
you're absolutely right that this has become a pantomime. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:19 | |
I mean, the politics of it and the personalities of it | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
are getting in the way of good negotiating. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
The Labour Party is not much better, frankly. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
That's like a traditional slapstick British comedy. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
One person walks in, says, "We're staying in the single market," | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
leaves, and someone else walks in and says, | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
"Oh, no, we're definitely leaving." | 0:08:34 | 0:08:35 | |
And politicians aren't being very honest with people right now. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
These are crucial moments of decision-making, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
and if we're going to capitalise on the benefits of Brexit | 0:08:41 | 0:08:43 | |
now that that decision has been taken, we need serious discussions | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
about the trade deal we're going to get. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
OK. Let me hear from... | 0:08:48 | 0:08:49 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
Let's hear from one or two members of our audience. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
You in the front, in the middle there. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:57 | |
Then I'll come to you up there. Yes. | 0:08:57 | 0:08:58 | |
It seemed like a pantomime yesterday, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
with David Davis with his speech in front of the committee. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:04 | |
-That's right. -He seemed as if he'd lost his script, | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
because the things he was coming out with in terms of, | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
he's not assessed the risk of us leaving Brexit, | 0:09:09 | 0:09:14 | |
it just seems a total embarrassment, and what are the Government doing? | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
Perhaps Bernard could answer that, because he said | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
he was going to do 58, 51 or 58, depending on your view... | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
-OWEN SMITH: -He said he'd done it. -He said he'd done it. -Nine times. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
He's never actually referred to impact assessments. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
These were a fiction of the media and the Labour Party. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
-What was he doing? -Then you put them into a motion | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
without working out what you really meant. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
What was he doing with those 58... What were they? | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
There's tonnes, I mean, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:39 | |
there are 58 sectors that have been subject to some sectoral analysis. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:43 | |
And you can go and read it if you want. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
It's now in a pile of 800 papers | 0:09:46 | 0:09:48 | |
in a room that we don't want to spread around too much | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
because it might give our opposition some... | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
There's nothing in it worth reading, Bernard. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
-I've looked at them. -There you are. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
-You've been to see it already, have you? -I have. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
The reality is that David Davis and Theresa May | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
said on nine separate occasions in the House of Commons | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
that they'd done or were doing 58 - | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
sometimes he said 57, sometimes 60, but around 58 - | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
sectoral analyses that were absolutely meant to show | 0:10:14 | 0:10:17 | |
what the impact of Brexit would be on those different sectors, | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
and he now says that there aren't any. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
-KATE ANDREW: -But, Owen, you're going back... | 0:10:23 | 0:10:24 | |
That's misleading Parliament and it's misleading you, the public. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
And he needs to be held to account for that. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
Sorry, can I ask a very simple question - | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
what is a sector analysis if it's not saying, | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
"This is what will happen to aerospace, this is..." | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
-What is it? -We are going back to the politics of it. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:42 | |
On what scenario are you going to base your assumptions? | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
What do you mean, what scenario? He was the one who was doing it. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
"We've got 50, nearly 60, sectoral analyses already done," he said. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:55 | |
On the basis of what you want, Bernard - Brexit. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
Surely that's what we should be analysing. | 0:10:57 | 0:10:59 | |
What is what you want going to do? | 0:10:59 | 0:11:00 | |
Surely the Government has a responsibility | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
to be modelling what the likely outcomes are. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
On the basis of what assumptions? | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
-And not just analysing... -On the basis... | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
And these analyses should be published next week. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
OK, one at a time. Why did he do it, then? | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
Why did he say he was doing it? He must know the assumptions. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
Because there is lots of work being done in lots of departments | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
about different sectors of the economy, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:19 | |
and what we need to negotiate | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
in order to further the interests of those sectors in the economy. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
That's not to say there's a definitive forecast | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
for each sector of the economy on the day we leave, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
because we don't even know what kind of deal there is going be. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
Back to Kelvin's point - this whole conversation now | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
has gone back to political point-scoring and politics. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
-OWEN SMITH: -It's about the truth, Kate. -Let her speak. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
We want to be talking about what those impact assessments | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
would even look like if we were able to do them, | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
and the truth is of the matter, you get a lot of nonsensical statistics. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
I work for an economic think tank. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
Economists are really good at analysing the past. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
They're really, really bad at predicting the future. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
What we need our politicians to be doing | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
is negotiating the best trade deal possible. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
Let's stop talking about the politics and get to the policy. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
So, Kate, when you heard that David Davis was saying | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
he'd got these sector analyses nearly done in June, | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
what did you read into that? | 0:12:15 | 0:12:16 | |
That he was just talking blather | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
or that he was doing something you didn't approve of, or what? | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
No, I mean, like everybody else, I believed him and was disappointed | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
to hear that he was so sloppy with his language. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:26 | |
-Perhaps he needs a much bigger slap... -Nine times. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
Yes, I don't disagree with you on that. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:30 | |
He probably needs a bigger slap on the wrist than he's been given, | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
but qualitative assessments, | 0:12:33 | 0:12:34 | |
looking at what different sectors are going to need post-Brexit, | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
is a lot more important than coming up with sloppy numbers. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
What happened during the referendum | 0:12:40 | 0:12:41 | |
when the Government came out with its figures? | 0:12:41 | 0:12:43 | |
"£4,000 worse off if you vote for Brexit." | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
You know, "The economy is going to grow 6% less than it would have | 0:12:46 | 0:12:48 | |
"if you vote for Brexit." Was that true? No. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
So, what are these numbers going to do now? | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
-RICHARD BACON: -"£350 million for the NHS." | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:56 | 0:12:57 | |
-Yeah, disappointment on both sides. -Where did that come from? | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
Exactly, disappointment on both sides. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:02 | |
-BERNARD JENKIN: -Can I tell you exactly where that came from? | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
That came from a table of statistics that is produced by the Government, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:08 | |
and I am chairman of the committee... | 0:13:08 | 0:13:10 | |
I'm chairman of the committee | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
that looks at the Statistics Authority, and I said to them, | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
18 months before the referendum, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
"You should change this table, because it's misleading." | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
-You put your name to that. -And they changed the table. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
They changed the table now. You can't derive that figure... | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
Let's not go back over that. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:25 | |
-But it was still on a bus! -I never used that figure personally. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
Silence, silence. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
Don't go fighting that battle... | 0:13:30 | 0:13:31 | |
-Quite agree. -..because it was a year and a half away. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
The man up there at the top right. I mean, it's a good battle to fight, | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
but we've got to move on. Up there, the top right. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
You, sir. Yes. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:39 | |
Speak? Yes, speak. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
Kate made the point of the dishonesty of both sides. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
-Yes? -Surely if there has been so much dishonesty from both sides, | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
which I think most people in the audience would agree with, | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
then that must be the best reason that we should sit down together | 0:13:51 | 0:13:56 | |
and be given the opportunity again, as a nation, to say, | 0:13:56 | 0:13:59 | |
"Now that we've got the truth, we would like another referendum." | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
-Yes. -I agree with that. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:14:05 | 0:14:07 | |
OK. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:08 | |
I'll take a point from the woman there, in the fifth row. Yes. You. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:14 | |
It's very hard not to be party political about this | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
when you see the committee... | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
Was it yesterday? It seems like a lifetime already. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
..voting along party lines. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
It's the incompetence that I think really gets everybody. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:33 | |
Either these sectoral analyses, | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
either they have been done and they're being hidden, | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
-or they are incredibly incompetent, and just not doing their job. -Yeah. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:46 | |
It's got to be one or the other. You know, they should have had... | 0:14:46 | 0:14:50 | |
They don't even know where they're going. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
Owen is saying yes. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:53 | |
But you're saying all parties are in a muddle about this? | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
No, no, because actually, there is a party that is in government. | 0:14:56 | 0:15:01 | |
And there were ten Tory members on the committee, | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
the Brexit committee, and they all voted to support, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:11 | |
basically, support David Davis. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
It separated along party lines. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
You could make the other argument, that all the opposition parties, | 0:15:16 | 0:15:21 | |
they voted also on party lines. It's a bit six of one... | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
-But if you have... -Let's... -But I'm afraid you're right, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
it's turned into a party-political spat | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
that really doesn't add much heat... much light to the situation. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
If he lied to the committee that these were available | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
when they were not, there is a question whether that is contempt. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
Right, and now I'm going to leave that point. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:40 | |
That's a very strong statement to make. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
Let's stick with... | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
This is a serious issue, and it's got to be determined | 0:15:44 | 0:15:46 | |
over the next whatever it is. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:48 | |
Jonathan Jennings, let's have your question, | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
and go to the heart of the matter. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
Might a no-deal Brexit actually be the best result for Britain? | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
A no-deal Brexit be the best result, in other words, | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
free trade, in effect. What do you think, Kate? | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
No, I don't think it would be the best result, and I don't think | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
that any party negotiating right now wants that to be the case. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
There's too much to lose. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
There's too much money, there's too much prosperity at stake. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
That being said, I don't think that a bare-bones Brexit, perhaps, | 0:16:15 | 0:16:19 | |
would be the end of the world. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:20 | |
If we were to crash out | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
with a structure of a deal that wasn't filled in yet, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
we're not starting from scratch, right? | 0:16:26 | 0:16:28 | |
The UK and the EU would already recognise each other's standards | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
to a very large degree. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:32 | |
The UK already works with countries that aren't in the EU | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
on very important things | 0:16:35 | 0:16:36 | |
like nuclear technology and intelligence. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
You wouldn't be starting from nothing, and it would be | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
possible to make it work - I don't think it is the disaster scenario | 0:16:41 | 0:16:45 | |
if you had a very loose structure in place. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
But let's not aim for no deal. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:49 | |
We can do this. We're better than this. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:50 | |
Again, go back to the optimism, look at the positive sides | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
of voting for Brexit, and let's try to get the best trade deal possible. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:57 | |
Liz, you said... | 0:16:57 | 0:16:58 | |
You said in your view, we should stay both in the single market | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
and the customs union. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
So anything other than that, you think, would be a disaster? | 0:17:06 | 0:17:10 | |
Forgive me for stating the obvious, and I believe this to be true | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
for all the nations of the United Kingdom, | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
but I am from Plaid Cymru, | 0:17:16 | 0:17:17 | |
and I have a particular interest in the interests of Wales, | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
and a particular interest in the interests of Dwyfor Meirionnydd, | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
which is an upland rural area. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:24 | |
Wales exports to the EU 90% of its agricultural produce. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:31 | |
It exports a third of its lamb produce. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:35 | |
If we go out without a deal, | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
the good cuts of lamb, which are those which will be exported, | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
will have 40% tariffs on them. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
Now, I am not going to sign up, | 0:17:44 | 0:17:46 | |
as a representative of Dwyfor Meirionnydd, | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
to what would effectively be an upland clearance. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
Bernard Jenkin, what about you on a no-deal Brexit? | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
Well, obviously, a good deal is better than no deal, | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
and that's what we must try to achieve. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
I agree with Kate that if we got a bare-bones deal, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:08 | |
which is dealing with all the housekeeping, if you like, | 0:18:08 | 0:18:12 | |
we then move into a deal that's already set up for us | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
by the World Trade Organisation | 0:18:16 | 0:18:17 | |
that's known as most favoured nation status. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
And if we went straight to most favoured nation status, | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
there would be some advantages. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:25 | |
We wouldn't have to pay a huge exit bill. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
We're only going to pay a big exit bill if we get a good trade deal. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
We would immediately have control over our tariffs, our regulation. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
We'd be able to cut tariffs on some of the foods that you pay taxes on. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
When you're buying your tangerines in the shops this Christmas, | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
you've got a tariff on the tangerines. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:46 | |
We don't grow tangerines in this country. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
Why are we protecting, trying to protect our tangerine industry, | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
when we haven't got one? | 0:18:52 | 0:18:53 | |
I am interested in protecting Welsh agriculture. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:55 | |
Well, of course. And if we went to a bare-bones deal and WTO, | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
the Government would immediately have a lot more money | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
to be able to spend on protecting upland farming. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
And we've always protected upland farming. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
The man up there in the white T-shirt. You. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
If we don't get a no deal, we're going to save £50 billion, | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
and that £50 billion could be used | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
to pay for the tidal lagoon in Swansea, | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
and the electrification of the train line to Swansea as well. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
So your view is, no deal and no money on exiting, just leave. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:28 | |
Yeah, because I don't see... | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
Why do we have to pay 50 billion to the EU | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
to leave in the first place? | 0:19:33 | 0:19:34 | |
Owen Smith. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:35 | |
Well, look, I think it's impossible to sit here in Swansea, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
and say anything other than leaving on World Trade terms, | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
as Bernard has just advocated, | 0:19:44 | 0:19:46 | |
and some of his, I think, hard-line Brexiteers want... | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
No, I don't think it's the best deal. We want a trade deal. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
Well, I think some of your colleagues want it. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
I think some of those people who were angling for a hard Brexit | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
absolutely see that because they see us able to | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
sort of buccaneer across the world. I think that's fantasy. | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
We're here in Swansea. We've already heard about the lamb. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
We've got a car plant just down the road from us here. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
We'd have 10-20% tariffs on the cars being exported. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
Not 20% - complete rubbish. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
We'd have import taxes, of course, both ways, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
that would affect the steelworks that is just down the road, | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
both on the things we were importing in order to create the steel | 0:20:19 | 0:20:23 | |
-and on the steel we export. -No, you're wrong about that, too. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
-Hang on, you said 10 or 20. -It's 12% on cars. -On cars. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
-It's 9.5%. -10% then. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
Does anyone want to pay an extra 10% for car exports? | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
-Can I just tell you something? -And crucially... | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
Can I just explain something to you? | 0:20:38 | 0:20:39 | |
This is far too serious, cos here in Swansea we've got a car plant. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
I want to make a serious point to you, actually. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
-We've got a car plant just down the road... -Yes. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
..where those engines - the Bridgend plant - | 0:20:46 | 0:20:48 | |
could also be made in Spain, | 0:20:48 | 0:20:49 | |
and I'm deeply worried about the future of that plant, | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
because we already know there are grave concerns about its future, | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
and we know that Ford are worried about the uncertainty... | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
Let Bernard Jenkin reply to that, then I'll come to you. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
Ford has already announced investment into motor | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
and manufacturing in this country since the vote, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
so they've got more confidence in this country than you have. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
And said they're worried about that plant after 2021. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
And you're wrong about the tariffs. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
What's imported and processed and then exported, | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
gets what's called inward processing relief. You don't pay the tax twice. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
It's quite a clever tax, and in any case, | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
the pound has already fallen very substantially since we had the vote. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:28 | |
Why was that? Why did it fall? | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
Well, actually, the IMF said it was overvalued - | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
it triggered a devaluation. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
The pound has already fallen more than the cost of the tariff. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
If we had tariffs on motors... We import far more cars than we export. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:44 | |
We'd collect a lot of money on the cars we import, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
and we'd have more money to spend on the electrification of the railways. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
Richard Bacon. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
There were so many unforeseen consequences to Brexit, and I think | 0:21:53 | 0:21:55 | |
the devaluation of the pound... The Defence Secretary this | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
week has been talking about the need to buy more military equipment. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:02 | |
Britain wants to buy, I think, 138 F35 fighters from America. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
We have devalued so much against the dollar | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
that we can no longer really afford them. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
And that's one of the many consequences. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:12 | |
But I think to your point about the 50 billion, I mean, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:14 | |
A - that was a figure that we were told we were never | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
going to have to pay, and I think if we had no deal Brexit... | 0:22:17 | 0:22:20 | |
You can't have a no deal Brexit. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:21 | |
You've got to have some sort of deal over the Irish border, for example. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
I don't think it's at all possible, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:26 | |
and I think that those people in government | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
talking about a no deal Brexit | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
are saying that from an emotional place, rather than a rational place. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
And every independent economic body thinks it would be terrible | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
for the economy, and the 50 million that we save | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
would be more than lost by the hit to the economy. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
The person in blue there. With spectacles on. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
You're saying about how, like, trade has been affected, | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
and how it's costing 4 billion, | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
but that's all that's in the social media. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
Because we're out now, that's all the social media is focusing on | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
is all the bad stuff about Brexit. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
We need to start focusing on the good stuff about Brexit, | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
and why we're leaving, and why the British public chose to leave. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
And how do you think it's going so far? | 0:23:06 | 0:23:08 | |
Going back to the original question. | 0:23:08 | 0:23:10 | |
Right now, it's always showing the bad stuff, | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
it's not showing any of the good stuff, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:13 | |
how it's going to save us money in years to come. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
That's completely true. When you're doing any reform, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
the people who are against the reform | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
are much noisier than the people who are quietly in favour of the reform. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
Surely the Brexit impact assessment should have been able | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
to tell us that, and they would have been... | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
So you want the government to publish more political propaganda? | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
I thought that was one of the mistakes | 0:23:35 | 0:23:37 | |
the government made during the referendum. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
What's extremely distressing at present is apparently, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
the best minds of the civil service are all engaged with Brexit, | 0:23:41 | 0:23:45 | |
and all the other departments are suffering from the loss. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
And it's going to be the best decision we've made for 50 years. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
And all we can see is the greatest incompetency, | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
which doesn't raise people's confidence in the future. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
Bernard, just before we move on to another question, | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
the cabinet seems divided all the time about the way to go, | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
between those who want a softer and a harder route. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
Well, this is a very, very big historical change. | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
You expect the cabinet to be divided? | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
And the establishment of this country, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
which was almost obsessed with driving us | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
on and on into integration in Europe, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:19 | |
has been rebuffed by a vote of the British people, | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
and there is a shock. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:24 | |
This is a political shock. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:26 | |
And I think a lot of my colleagues are finding it very difficult | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
to adapt to what they were brought up to believe - | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
that somehow being in the European Union was absolutely essential | 0:24:31 | 0:24:33 | |
to this country, but you know what? | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
Most countries aren't in the European Union, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
and they're absolutely fine, they do very well. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
We're going to do very well outside the European Union. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
We'll have our democracy back, we'll be in control of our immigration, | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
we'll be able to do those trade deals with other countries, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
which is what the future of this country is really about. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:51 | |
But sitting at that... APPLAUSE | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
Sitting at Cabinet and hearing | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
Philip Hammond on the one hand say... | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
And Boris Johnson on the other, what does Theresa May | 0:25:03 | 0:25:05 | |
make of it, in your opinion? | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
I think she's finding it very difficult, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
but she's a very, very strong-minded, | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
decent and principled person, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
who is absolutely devoted to her duty as a public servant, | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
and I think the British people can see that. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
But where does she her duty lying as between these conflicting views? | 0:25:18 | 0:25:22 | |
I think she sees her job, as chairman of the cabinet, | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
to try and bring the voices together and instil a sense of direction, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
but let's face it - | 0:25:30 | 0:25:31 | |
both the major political parties are very divided about this. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
This is why we had to have a referendum, | 0:25:34 | 0:25:36 | |
because there was a kind of cosy consensus of the elite politicians, | 0:25:36 | 0:25:40 | |
and in both political parties, there was dissent | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
about the direction in which we were going, | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
and the British people have distilled a decision. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
That's a real eye-opener. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:48 | |
Sorry, but that shows that this is more about the parties, | 0:25:48 | 0:25:50 | |
the two major Westminster parties sorting out their own problems, | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
rather than putting the interests of the United Kingdom first. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
It was about giving a choice to the British people. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
OK, we'll just hear a couple more points. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:01 | |
A lot has been said about the impact assessment. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:04 | |
How could they sensibly be conducted when no-one knows at the moment | 0:26:04 | 0:26:09 | |
whether we'd be part of a single market, a customs union, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
hard Brexit, a Canadian model, a Norwegian model, an EFTA model...? | 0:26:13 | 0:26:18 | |
Or something else! | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
It is weird, isn't it? | 0:26:22 | 0:26:24 | |
Frankly, it is weird that we haven't done | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
a proper assessment of the impact. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
Along the lines he's suggesting? | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
But the entire British establishment | 0:26:31 | 0:26:32 | |
was expecting the country to vote Remain. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
We've got 15 months to go before we're out, as things stand. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
The woman up there on the left, please. There. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
The EU has produced impact assessments covering every area. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
They've done it for 27 countries. | 0:26:45 | 0:26:47 | |
The Dutch government has produced impact assessments. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
PricewaterhouseCoopers has produced impact assessments. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:58 | |
There's eight, nine, ten other organisations to have done so. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:03 | |
So if they can all do it, why can't our government? | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
-I... -I suspect they have. -They've done it for all scenarios. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:12 | |
OK. OK. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
Well, we shall see what happens with that question. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:16 | |
Do you think the country, just to finish, | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
is going to be richer or poorer, are individual people going to be richer | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
or poorer when this whole thing is complete? | 0:27:22 | 0:27:24 | |
Richard Bacon, what's your view? | 0:27:24 | 0:27:25 | |
Er...I think in the end, poorer. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
I know Kate thinks that economists aren't very good at forecasting | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
the future, but they were pretty clear that all independent | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
economic bodies said it would be net negative for the economy, | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
and I think if it's net negative for the economy, | 0:27:36 | 0:27:38 | |
it's net negative for more or less everyone, so poorer. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
Sorry, the numbers that were released during the referendum | 0:27:41 | 0:27:44 | |
suggested that people sitting in this audience were going to be | 0:27:44 | 0:27:46 | |
£4,300, I believe it was, worse off, when they voted to leave. | 0:27:46 | 0:27:50 | |
They suggested that the economy was going to shrink by 6%. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
Now, growth figures aren't fantastic, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:55 | |
and there are a lot of reasons for this. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:57 | |
Let's not forget that so many of our domestic policy issues, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
productivity, all of this, has nothing to do with the EU, | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
and everything to do with policies set in Westminster by Westminster... | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
Do you think we're going to be richer or poorer as a nation? | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
I think you're going to be richer if you use the process of Brexit | 0:28:10 | 0:28:14 | |
to be optimistic and try to pursue the best deals possible. | 0:28:14 | 0:28:17 | |
But don't put statistics out into the air that, | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
as the gentleman pointed out, you can't rely on, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
because there are just an indefinite number of variables. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
OK. Let's move on. APPLAUSE | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
Just before we move on, there's a lot more to say about all that, | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
and there will be as Question Time goes on through the year to come. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
But next Thursday, we're going to be in Barnsley, | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
if you'd like to come to the Question Time edition there. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:44 | |
Barnsley. Then there's a break until January, and we'll be in... | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
My goodness, we're going to be in Islington! | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
In London. LAUGHTER | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
The politicians' home territory! | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
-Momentum territory! -Some of them. -What? | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
-Momentum territory. -There's many other people as well... Anyway. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:02 | |
If you want to come either to Barnsley or Islington, | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
on the screen now is how to apply, and we'll give those details | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
at the end with the telephone numbers again. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
Let's have a question, please, from Tony Clark. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
Can we have your question? Tony. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
Hi. | 0:29:17 | 0:29:18 | |
Is Donald Trump right to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? | 0:29:18 | 0:29:22 | |
Yesterday's news. Kate Andrews. | 0:29:22 | 0:29:24 | |
-So, my default position... -The only American on this panel. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
Yes, I am. My default position when it comes to the President | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
is if he's said or done anything, I disagree with it. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
But now I'm going to get myself into a bit of trouble, | 0:29:40 | 0:29:42 | |
because a broken clock is right twice a day, | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
and I think the President is right | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:49 | |
-This has been... -GRUMBLES AND SCATTERED APPLAUSE | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
I'll tell you why. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:53 | |
This has been American policy since 1995 - | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
it was the Jerusalem Embassy Act, passed in 1995, | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
from both parties, pretty unanimous. | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
And every six months, the US President, Republican or Democrat, | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
has been signing waivers to put off implementing this legislation, | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
mostly for political reasons. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
It was as recently as June this year, | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
during the Trump administration, | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
that the Senate voted 90 to 0 - 90 to nil, | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
Republicans and Democrats together, | 0:30:19 | 0:30:21 | |
to prod the President to introduce this policy. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:25 | |
Now he's done it, he has implemented what is across-the-board | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
American policy, and I think it is the right decision, | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
because we are living in a dream world if we think | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
the two-state solution is going to result in a divided Jerusalem. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
It is almost certainly not going to do that, | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
and I hope that this can actually help move a peace process, | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
which is not active at the moment in any way, forward. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
The last thing I would say is that the hatred of Qatar | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
or the threats of Hamas should not be part | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
of determining foreign policy in the UK or the US or anywhere else. | 0:30:52 | 0:30:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
Richard Bacon. You live in the US now. What's your view? | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
Yeah. I do, and... | 0:31:03 | 0:31:05 | |
I think a couple of things. First of all, um... | 0:31:05 | 0:31:08 | |
Theresa May has said this will make peace harder, | 0:31:08 | 0:31:11 | |
President Abbas has said this marks the end of the peace process, | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
Hamas has said they'll unleash hell, and the Pope said it was a mistake. | 0:31:14 | 0:31:17 | |
And Donald Trump listened to none of those... | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
-Why would you listen to... -Let him answer. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
You listen to different voices... | 0:31:21 | 0:31:24 | |
-Not terrorists. -Well, OK... | 0:31:24 | 0:31:25 | |
That's true. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:26 | |
I was just telling you different views have been expressed today. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:29 | |
But do you think, when you look at Donald Trump's pattern | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
of behaviour, even if you think this is the right thing, do you think | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
that he is a great statesman who carefully weighed up the evidence... | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
-No! -..listened to different voices and reached a rational decision? | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
-Of course not! -Of course not! He listened to his son-in-law, | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
another property developer from New York, who made this decision. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
Here's what I would say, living in Trump's America right now, is... | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
Just in the last ten days, when he re-tweeted the anti-Muslim videos, | 0:31:49 | 0:31:53 | |
he's claimed that the Access Hollywood tape is fake, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
he's pushed through a tax bill in the Senate | 0:31:56 | 0:31:58 | |
along with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, which nobody had read, | 0:31:58 | 0:32:01 | |
and will take 13 million people out of health care, | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
and it's given me a real appreciation | 0:32:04 | 0:32:06 | |
of the United Kingdom and of our politicians here, | 0:32:06 | 0:32:08 | |
and whatever you think of them, | 0:32:08 | 0:32:10 | |
if you take Theresa May or Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown | 0:32:10 | 0:32:13 | |
or even David Cameron - are they, whether you like them or not, | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
are they hard-working, well-meaning people, | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
trying hard to do the right thing? | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
You've picked three who aren't around any more! | 0:32:22 | 0:32:25 | |
I just mean by referencing party leaders, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:27 | |
but I would say generally, with politicians | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
and those around this table, that in the end it's given me | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
an appreciation of this country, and I think that... | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
we're better than them. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:37 | |
Liz Saville Roberts. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:38 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
Was he right to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
It appears to be only interpretable | 0:32:46 | 0:32:49 | |
as a deliberately incendiary act that is aimed principally | 0:32:49 | 0:32:54 | |
at a home audience, without due consideration that he has now... | 0:32:54 | 0:32:58 | |
There is violence on the occupied West Bank, | 0:32:58 | 0:33:02 | |
probably as we speak, certainly today. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:04 | |
There is violence increased because of this action in the Middle East. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:08 | |
That then increases the risk here of terrorism activity in Europe. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
It will increase the risk of terrorism activity in the USA, | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
and any president who acts in such a way as to endanger his own people, | 0:33:15 | 0:33:20 | |
as well as other people in the world, | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
is frankly not fit for public office. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:33:24 | 0:33:26 | |
You, sir, in the middle there. Yes. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
I totally agree that it's going to cause further problems | 0:33:32 | 0:33:37 | |
in the Middle East and the wider region. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:39 | |
It also legitimises... | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
you know, the illegal occupation of the West Bank, as well. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:47 | |
-So you see no merit... -I see no merit in it whatsoever. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:52 | |
Bernard Jenkin, do you? | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
I'm afraid I'm more in agreement with Liz than Kate in this. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:59 | |
I mean, if there was evidence | 0:33:59 | 0:34:01 | |
that President Trump did very subtle, strategic thinking, | 0:34:01 | 0:34:07 | |
long-term... | 0:34:07 | 0:34:09 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
..then one could perhaps believe | 0:34:11 | 0:34:13 | |
that this is part of a beginning of some kind of new process | 0:34:13 | 0:34:17 | |
that's meant to jump-start some talks or something. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:20 | |
I can't see that. I think this is not a solution, | 0:34:20 | 0:34:23 | |
it is provocation, and we do want process, and not provocation. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:28 | |
The really dangerous... | 0:34:28 | 0:34:29 | |
The really dangerous thing is that this feeds the narrative | 0:34:29 | 0:34:33 | |
that is a recruiting sergeant for Isis, terrorism... | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
Exactly. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:37 | |
..for Muslim fundamentalism, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:38 | |
because the narrative around the West supporting Israel is, | 0:34:38 | 0:34:42 | |
I'm afraid, part of the narrative that we are somehow | 0:34:42 | 0:34:46 | |
interfering in their world, we are taking over their lands, | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
interfering in their countries, | 0:34:49 | 0:34:51 | |
and I'm afraid I think this is going to... | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
I mean, we've already seen the violence on the television... | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
Can I quickly jump in and say that Trump did not make this decision | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
because of his son-in-law. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:01 | |
The Senate instructed him to do this as recently as June. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:03 | |
That is an American institution, | 0:35:03 | 0:35:05 | |
so before we just go around saying that Trump is speaking | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
to his cronies, let's remember, | 0:35:08 | 0:35:09 | |
when you are pushing back on this decision, | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
you're pushing back on American institutions, which is fine, but... | 0:35:11 | 0:35:14 | |
The US Presidents have pushed back on it since 1995. | 0:35:14 | 0:35:17 | |
Yes, my bigger point is I'm very uncomfortable with this idea | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
that the violence that is coming up around the world is... | 0:35:20 | 0:35:24 | |
I know you're not saying it's justified, but the assumption here | 0:35:24 | 0:35:28 | |
is that if the West didn't do X, then people would be less violent, | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
and I'm very concerned about that kind of rhetoric. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
All right, hold on, everybody. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:37 | |
Thank you. Owen Smith. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:39 | |
I think it's terrifying, | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
and it pains me to say it, but the leader of one of our greatest, | 0:35:41 | 0:35:45 | |
most long-standing allies, is, I'm afraid to say, a bully | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
and a bigot, and someone who has made, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
I think an extraordinarily crass intervention | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
in a part of the world that we know is incredibly difficult | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
and delicately balanced. | 0:35:57 | 0:35:59 | |
We've got violence on the screens of our televisions tonight | 0:35:59 | 0:36:02 | |
as a direct consequence of this intervention | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
by the President of the US. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
Kate says he's been instructed to do it. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:10 | |
-This vote was taken initially in 1995... -And as recently as June. | 0:36:10 | 0:36:14 | |
And successive US presidents, | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
mindful of the fact that America has a massively important role | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
to play as a neutral broker in the Middle East, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
have chosen not to take this step | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
And Donald Trump, like a bull in a china shop, | 0:36:26 | 0:36:28 | |
like the way he approaches everything, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
has charged in in order to feed his base and make good | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
on one of the other crass promises he made | 0:36:34 | 0:36:36 | |
during his leadership contest. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:38 | |
And he has, unfortunately, I think, destroyed America's ability | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
to engage under his presidency, and do what we need them to do, | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
which is to help bring about peace in the Middle East. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
The woman up there, third row. The woman in the middle. Yes. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:52 | |
-Let's hear from you. -I just wanted to actually lead on from that. | 0:36:52 | 0:36:57 | |
If American presidents haven't been kind of declaring | 0:36:57 | 0:37:01 | |
their support for Jerusalem being Israel's, | 0:37:01 | 0:37:06 | |
why is it that Trump's done that now, as in, | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
if... Like you said, why now? | 0:37:09 | 0:37:12 | |
There's just... It doesn't... | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
I don't understand personally, and I hope you can explain this more. | 0:37:15 | 0:37:20 | |
Why would he do this? | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
Why would he potentially cause further violence, | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
why would he potentially cause a further divide - | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
a divide that is just not necessary in such a divided world? | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
Is it possible that he's partly | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
-distracting from the Robert Mueller investigation? -Maybe. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
I think it's because it's one of the foolish things | 0:37:35 | 0:37:38 | |
he promised during the election, | 0:37:38 | 0:37:39 | |
and he seems determined to make good on all of those crazy things. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
He'll be genuinely building a wall next. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
I think Owen is right, that this is basically an election promise. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
I have... As I said, a broken clock is right twice a day - | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
I happen to think that in this case, he is moving forward with | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
-what American institutions have been calling for for decades. -All right. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
None of this changes the fact that he is an incredibly dangerous | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
and bigoted man, but in terms of this particular topic, | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
I think we have to see the wood for the trees. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
The man up there, then we'll go on to another question. Yes. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
I think it's crazy somehow of Kate Andrews to suggest | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
that because she can't see a two-state solution in Palestine, | 0:38:13 | 0:38:16 | |
that we should just hand over the land... | 0:38:16 | 0:38:18 | |
-No, I can. No, sorry - I can. -Let him make his point. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
..when Jews, Christians and Muslims | 0:38:21 | 0:38:23 | |
have been living in Jerusalem for centuries together, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
that somehow, we should legitimise the state of Israel, | 0:38:25 | 0:38:29 | |
and delegitimise the state of Palestine, | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
when Muslims have lived in Jerusalem for centuries, | 0:38:32 | 0:38:36 | |
peacefully and harmoniously with Israelis... | 0:38:36 | 0:38:40 | |
It's just crazy how the US can continue to support Israel, | 0:38:40 | 0:38:45 | |
when it's been stealing land from the Palestinians for decades, | 0:38:45 | 0:38:49 | |
stolen land from other countries, and now it's stealing Jerusalem. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:53 | |
-Thank you. -I... -No, it's all right, Kate. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
We must move on to another question. | 0:38:57 | 0:38:59 | |
Morgan Davies Walker, let's have your question. Morgan. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:03 | |
After the mass resignation of all members | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
of the Social Mobility Committee, | 0:39:05 | 0:39:07 | |
does the panel think that social class is still relevant today? | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
The mass resignation, on Sunday, I think it was, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
of the Social Mobility Committee | 0:39:13 | 0:39:15 | |
that was in protest against | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
"Little evidence of meaningful action on social mobility," | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
and they all resigned, both parties, | 0:39:21 | 0:39:23 | |
led by Alan Milburn of Labour - they all resigned together. | 0:39:23 | 0:39:26 | |
The question is, does the panel think social class | 0:39:26 | 0:39:29 | |
is still relevant, given what they've asserted. Richard Bacon. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:33 | |
Yes, it definitely is still relevant. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
Social class has I think as big a... | 0:39:36 | 0:39:38 | |
Is as big a determinant now of where you end up | 0:39:38 | 0:39:42 | |
and how rich you end up as it has ever been. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
I don't want to make the entire thing about Brexit, | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
but as a side note, Alan Milburn said that when they resigned, | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
he resigned from this committee, it was partly a sense | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
that it's not that the Government doesn't believe in this - | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
of course they do, and of course they want to do something about it - | 0:39:54 | 0:39:57 | |
but so much energy has gone towards Brexit | 0:39:57 | 0:39:59 | |
that there's not been enough energy put in towards this. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:03 | |
But when you look at the top of almost all major professions, | 0:40:03 | 0:40:06 | |
and you look at universities like Oxford, | 0:40:06 | 0:40:08 | |
that are taking in more kids from state schools, | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
but I think it's still around 40% that are from private school, | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
and only 7% of the population go to private school. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:17 | |
I think social class remains as big an issue | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
in the United Kingdom as it's ever been. | 0:40:20 | 0:40:22 | |
OK. APPLAUSE | 0:40:22 | 0:40:24 | |
Bernard Jenkin. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:27 | |
Well, of course, social mobility is very important. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
But I just hazard a guess - how many people in this room | 0:40:31 | 0:40:33 | |
had ever heard of the Social Mobility Commission? | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
-But that's not... -OK, A few. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:39 | |
-She had. -A few, but, I mean, a tiny handful. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
The fact is, what really matters, | 0:40:41 | 0:40:42 | |
what really creates social mobility, is economic success. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
It's having the highest rates of employment in this country | 0:40:45 | 0:40:48 | |
that we've ever had, the lowest rate of unemployment for 40 years. | 0:40:48 | 0:40:52 | |
87% of children in England, I am afraid to say - not in Wales - | 0:40:52 | 0:40:57 | |
are now attending good or outstanding schools. | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
There's just been some announcements about literacy in schools, | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
the introduction of phonics in schools has had a dramatic effect | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
on the reading ability of seven-year-olds. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:09 | |
-You mentioned universities. -Mm. | 0:41:09 | 0:41:10 | |
There are more people from deprived backgrounds | 0:41:10 | 0:41:13 | |
going into universities than ever before. | 0:41:13 | 0:41:16 | |
This is real social mobility. | 0:41:16 | 0:41:18 | |
The introduction of the National Living Wage has raised... | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
So why did all these people resign, saying that the Government | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
is doing nothing about it, including Tories, not just Labour? | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
I think it's the fashion of having these commissions | 0:41:26 | 0:41:28 | |
and these tsars - they're a bit of a talking shop. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
-They don't actually do anything - they just discuss things. -All right. | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
And I think governments getting on with stuff is much more important. | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:41:37 | 0:41:41 | |
Too many experts, Owen? | 0:41:41 | 0:41:43 | |
Yeah, a little bit too much, too many experts, | 0:41:43 | 0:41:45 | |
let's just get on with the job. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:47 | |
Brexiteers have never been keen on the experts, as we know. | 0:41:47 | 0:41:50 | |
Well, the experts are so often wrong, that's why. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
Well, in this case, one of the experts | 0:41:53 | 0:41:55 | |
was one of your former colleagues, Gillian Shephard, | 0:41:55 | 0:41:57 | |
who was a Tory Education Secretary for many, many years, | 0:41:57 | 0:41:59 | |
and she resigned as part of this mass resignation, | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
putting her name to... | 0:42:03 | 0:42:04 | |
You make it sound like some kind of political earthquake. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
I'm afraid it really doesn't matter very much. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
-Bernard... -Well, it matters to the questioner. Bring in Morgan. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:13 | |
-Can I just finish? -No, let Morgan... | 0:42:13 | 0:42:15 | |
-Does it matter to you, Morgan? -Should matter. -Where is he? | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
Morgan. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:19 | |
Um...I think that acknowledging social class | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
could be an important way to address the fact that some people | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
start from a position of privilege, and some people don't. | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
-I wish we'd just stop talking about class. -Why? -Class isn't important. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:32 | |
That's because you haven't faced the oppression... | 0:42:32 | 0:42:34 | |
It doesn't matter where you've come from - | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
we should provide a country with opportunities. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:38 | |
Morgan, you tell him... | 0:42:38 | 0:42:39 | |
It's easy for you to say that we shouldn't talk about social class, | 0:42:39 | 0:42:42 | |
because you haven't had to experience the oppression | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
and the hardship that people | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
that are in the lower social classes have faced. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:49 | |
What I'm in politics for... | 0:42:49 | 0:42:51 | |
-APPLAUSE -What I'm in politics for... | 0:42:51 | 0:42:53 | |
-..is to give more people more opportunities. -Owen. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:57 | |
Not to hold grudges about class. | 0:42:57 | 0:42:59 | |
Owen, I interrupted you. | 0:42:59 | 0:43:00 | |
I can't remember whether Bernard owns a castle or not, but... | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
-Oh, come on! -I think it's quite big. -I think class jibes are cheap. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:07 | |
Well, I think the reality, Bernard, | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
is the reason this is such a big story | 0:43:09 | 0:43:12 | |
is your Prime Minister, Theresa May, stood on the steps of Downing Street | 0:43:12 | 0:43:17 | |
upon assuming the Prime Minister job in this country, | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
and said that she thought social mobility | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
and solving the problems we've got socially... | 0:43:23 | 0:43:25 | |
And look - she's achieving it. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:26 | |
..was the biggest challenge she faced, | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
and the biggest thing she was determined to fix, | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
and to have her appointees - | 0:43:32 | 0:43:34 | |
the people who sit on the very commission that's designed to | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
measure whether she's achieving that objective - resign because | 0:43:37 | 0:43:40 | |
they think she's failing on every objective measure, is, I think, | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
a really damning indictment of your government. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
I think this is a storm in a Westminster teacup. | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
400,000 more children are in absolute poverty in this country | 0:43:48 | 0:43:52 | |
under the Tories. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:53 | |
Oh, come on. I'm going to call you out on those figures. | 0:43:53 | 0:43:55 | |
They are missing every single target. It's a disaster, Bernard, | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
-and the reason people... -APPLAUSE | 0:43:58 | 0:44:00 | |
It's a disaster! | 0:44:00 | 0:44:02 | |
Liz. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:03 | |
We cannot be on Question Time here this evening in Swansea, in Wales... | 0:44:03 | 0:44:09 | |
Swansea has not had any announcement on the tidal lagoon, | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
there is not an inch... | 0:44:12 | 0:44:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:44:14 | 0:44:15 | |
An inch of of electrification on the railways in Wales... | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
Of the devolved nations, | 0:44:22 | 0:44:24 | |
Wales receives the poorest level of funding. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:27 | |
We are seeing a situation where the south-east is overheating, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
and yet HS2 is designed to draw more people into the south-east. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
-Hear, hear! -And London is funded more than Wales per head... | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
Hang on, we're talking about social class, can you come to that? | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
I'm talking about regional equality. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:43 | |
But the question was about social class. | 0:44:43 | 0:44:45 | |
And regional equality and social class will be intimately entwined, | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
and I would remind, though, | 0:44:48 | 0:44:49 | |
that in Wales, it is Labour who have been responsible for education, | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
and if that is our route out, we need to develop it. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
-Quite right. -OK. | 0:44:56 | 0:44:58 | |
Kate Andrews. | 0:44:58 | 0:45:00 | |
I agree with Richard and Morgan | 0:45:00 | 0:45:02 | |
that social class needs to be discussed more. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
We often talk about gender discrimination, | 0:45:04 | 0:45:06 | |
and the ways that women in particular struggle | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
to move up the ladder, but I think that social class | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
is really just as strong of an argument. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:13 | |
But let's talk about what we can actually DO about this. | 0:45:13 | 0:45:16 | |
I mean, housing costs, particularly in England, | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
but across the board, are incredibly restrictive | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
in terms of who can access getting on the housing ladder. | 0:45:22 | 0:45:25 | |
Let's liberalise the planning system, | 0:45:25 | 0:45:27 | |
and bring the cost of housing down. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:29 | |
Electricity costs, | 0:45:29 | 0:45:30 | |
in England and Wales, over the past two decades, have risen by 50% | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
because of onerous regulation. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:35 | |
We can tackle that. | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
Childcare costs are some of the highest in the OECD here in the UK. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
We can tackle that, we can make policy changes to put it forward, | 0:45:41 | 0:45:44 | |
but Richard was right - we do have this issue of a Brexit black hole, | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
where these issues that can be decided now in Westminster | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
get pushed to the back burner | 0:45:51 | 0:45:52 | |
because we can only talk about Brexit. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:54 | |
We need to be having this conversation, | 0:45:54 | 0:45:56 | |
and that will help tackle the issue of social class. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
The woman in the second row there, yes. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:00 | |
Can I go back to what Bernard said? | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
You gave a percentage, 80+% for England. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
It concerns me that you haven't got a percentage for Wales, | 0:46:08 | 0:46:11 | |
and even on the news yesterday, | 0:46:11 | 0:46:13 | |
there was a lot about education in Wales... | 0:46:13 | 0:46:16 | |
What was the percentage about? | 0:46:16 | 0:46:18 | |
87, was it? 87%, you gave? | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
87% for England, I'm afraid... | 0:46:20 | 0:46:22 | |
-Percentage of what? -87% of... | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
You've lost it in your paperwork. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
..children are now attending good or outstanding schools. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:30 | |
I'm afraid that's a much better percentage than in Wales. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:32 | |
So what is it for Wales? | 0:46:32 | 0:46:34 | |
And why is it not more concern and money being put into Wales? | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
I'm afraid the Labour Party run education in Wales, | 0:46:37 | 0:46:40 | |
and they've not been making the reforms we have in England. | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
We've just increased spending on education in Wales, | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
whereas you've cut capital spending in education at the Budget. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
It hasn't... It hasn't increased, has it? | 0:46:49 | 0:46:52 | |
It's gone down. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:53 | |
£300 per pupil, it's gone down. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
The woman in the third row. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
Let's hear from you. | 0:46:58 | 0:46:59 | |
I was interested to find out what your plan is | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
to replace all of the funding that we used to get in South Wales | 0:47:02 | 0:47:06 | |
for our most deprived areas through the European Social Fund. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:47:09 | 0:47:10 | |
You missed the... | 0:47:12 | 0:47:13 | |
The European Social Fund were the last three words. | 0:47:13 | 0:47:15 | |
From the European Social Fund | 0:47:15 | 0:47:17 | |
and the European Regional and Structural funds, | 0:47:17 | 0:47:19 | |
there will be a UK Prosperity Fund. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:21 | |
Because once we've left the EU and are free of the payments to the EU, | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
we will actually have more money to spend in this country | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
than we had before. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:28 | |
We will no longer be making a net contribution to the European Union. | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
And there is no tradition of addressing inequality in the UK. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
You must speak one at a time, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:36 | |
otherwise nobody can hear what either says. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
-..the Budget gave an extra 1.2 billion to Wales. -OK. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:40 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:42 | |
I'm going to move on, because we've only got ten minutes or so left. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
Martin... | 0:47:45 | 0:47:46 | |
Martin Hennes, is it? Yes. Martin, please. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
Should we allow anybody who has fought with Isis | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
back into the country? | 0:47:53 | 0:47:54 | |
Isis was mentioned when we were talking about Jerusalem, | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
and of course we had the new Defence Secretary saying, | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
"A dead terrorist can't cause any harm to Britain - | 0:48:00 | 0:48:03 | |
"we must continue to hunt them down." | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
Owen Smith. Should we allow anybody who's fought for Isis back here? | 0:48:06 | 0:48:10 | |
Well, I think Gavin Williams, the new Defence Secretary - | 0:48:11 | 0:48:15 | |
I don't know whether he was trying to just get a good headline | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
in the Daily Mail, but I did think it was a very immature | 0:48:18 | 0:48:22 | |
and slightly silly thing for him to say, | 0:48:22 | 0:48:26 | |
to suggest that we are effectively going to hunt down | 0:48:26 | 0:48:29 | |
and kill, or apparently kill people, if they come back to this country... | 0:48:29 | 0:48:33 | |
-No, he didn't say that - come on. -I think that was the implication. | 0:48:33 | 0:48:36 | |
-No, it wasn't. -What he actually said was.... -You're being a twit. | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
LAUGHTER AND BOOING | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
I think Gavin was being a twit when he said what he said. | 0:48:42 | 0:48:44 | |
I don't think he said he'd kill them in this country. | 0:48:44 | 0:48:46 | |
I think the implication of it was that they were going to be killed | 0:48:46 | 0:48:50 | |
wherever they were in the world, I think that's precisely what... | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
And that was precisely the policy | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
of your government when you were in office before 2010. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
Sorry, what was precisely...? | 0:48:57 | 0:48:59 | |
It was precisely the policy. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:00 | |
You were using drones to kill terrorists, | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
even if they were British. | 0:49:03 | 0:49:05 | |
If they had sworn allegiance to another state, | 0:49:05 | 0:49:08 | |
or to something like Isis, they were going to get... | 0:49:08 | 0:49:11 | |
And I have nothing to object to there. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:13 | |
I think the reality is that if people are joining Isis, | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
and targeting British interests or British citizens, | 0:49:17 | 0:49:20 | |
they are legitimate targets, and they are, you know, | 0:49:20 | 0:49:23 | |
in danger, wherever they are, to be killed. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:26 | |
Should they be allowed back into this country, was the question. | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
Well, crucially, you can't deny people statehood, | 0:49:29 | 0:49:31 | |
can you, so if you are for example someone who's gone to fight | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
-in Syria and then... -PEOPLE MUTTER | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
Because legally, it's incredibly difficult to tell someone | 0:49:36 | 0:49:39 | |
that they are suddenly stateless. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:41 | |
-That of course implies that... -Wait a second, wait a second... | 0:49:41 | 0:49:44 | |
..they need to stay in another country, or go somewhere else. | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
So it's a glib sound bite, which is why it was a very silly thing | 0:49:47 | 0:49:51 | |
for someone in a very serious position to say. | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
We aren't going to assassinate people upon coming back | 0:49:54 | 0:49:56 | |
to this country. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:57 | |
Are we going to assassinate people if they go to Turkey, | 0:49:57 | 0:50:01 | |
or other places where some of the people | 0:50:01 | 0:50:03 | |
who've fought in Syria have gone? | 0:50:03 | 0:50:04 | |
I don't think we are. | 0:50:04 | 0:50:06 | |
And equally, if people have laid down their arms, | 0:50:06 | 0:50:08 | |
and want to come back to this country, | 0:50:08 | 0:50:10 | |
we should arrest them, | 0:50:10 | 0:50:11 | |
they should go through due process, and we should rely on the law | 0:50:11 | 0:50:14 | |
to make sure that it that it looks after people, not assassination. | 0:50:14 | 0:50:17 | |
-Martin, what was in the back of your mind? -Well, on my mind... | 0:50:17 | 0:50:21 | |
If I can protect my family, or anybody else's family, | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
I would do anything. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:26 | |
I would not lose a moment's sleep over any of them taken out anywhere. | 0:50:26 | 0:50:30 | |
APPLAUSE But hang on... | 0:50:30 | 0:50:31 | |
What about when they come back? To Britain? | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
-Don't allow them back through the borders. -And do what with them? | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
Just... They can go wherever they like, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
but they're not coming back into this country to make more trouble. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
We have enough trouble with the ones we've got here. | 0:50:45 | 0:50:48 | |
Those who have voluntarily gone to another country, | 0:50:48 | 0:50:51 | |
they don't come back. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:52 | |
-Bernard Jenkin? -Well, Martin, I do lose sleep over it, | 0:50:52 | 0:50:55 | |
but I think the problem is that, particularly the English, | 0:50:55 | 0:51:00 | |
the British people that go out to support Isis, | 0:51:00 | 0:51:04 | |
they actually do renounce their allegiance to this country. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:08 | |
They deny their citizenship of this country, | 0:51:08 | 0:51:10 | |
and if they have renounced their citizenship, | 0:51:10 | 0:51:12 | |
there comes a point when we're no longer responsible for them, | 0:51:12 | 0:51:16 | |
and if somebody wants to come back, and says, | 0:51:16 | 0:51:20 | |
"I have really turned", I mean, there is a difficult problem for us. | 0:51:20 | 0:51:24 | |
But I'm afraid, while they're out there, the danger is, | 0:51:24 | 0:51:27 | |
thousands have come back from these war zones intending to do us harm, | 0:51:27 | 0:51:32 | |
and it's all very well applying ultra-human rights and civil justice | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
to these people as though they were just ordinary criminals. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:40 | |
They're not - we are at war with these terrorists. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:43 | |
Sorry, no, hang on a second. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:45 | |
They should be arrested and incarcerated and processed. | 0:51:45 | 0:51:48 | |
What are you saying should happen? | 0:51:48 | 0:51:50 | |
Because you're obviously taking a different view from Owen. | 0:51:50 | 0:51:53 | |
In the end, we are still developing the law of conflict, | 0:51:53 | 0:51:59 | |
international conflict, where we are dealing with non-state actors. | 0:51:59 | 0:52:03 | |
Sorry, take as an example somebody who goes from a town in Britain - | 0:52:03 | 0:52:09 | |
we won't name one - has been out, fought in Syria, | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
and then comes back and arrives at the airport. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:15 | |
What would you do then? | 0:52:15 | 0:52:16 | |
-You're saying they don't have statehood? -Clearly, they are a risk. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
But you're saying they've relinquished their statehood? | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
And they have... If they've been fighting for Isis, | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
they have effectively relinquished their statehood. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
And what would you do with them, then - send them where? | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
-Guantanamo Bay? What do you do? -It's a big problem. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
Well, you don't want to finish up with a legal black hole | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
-like Guantanamo Bay... -Quite. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:34 | |
We put control orders on them, or whatever they're called now... | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
That's what I've just argued. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:40 | |
We track them, we incarcerate them sometimes... | 0:52:40 | 0:52:44 | |
But you ARE allowing them back. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:46 | |
You started saying you wouldn't allow them back, | 0:52:46 | 0:52:48 | |
and now you say you would. | 0:52:48 | 0:52:49 | |
We try not to let them in in the first place, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
try and stop them coming back in the first place. | 0:52:51 | 0:52:53 | |
If you go to fight, | 0:52:53 | 0:52:54 | |
if you leave the town you referred to there and go to fight in Syria, | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
you know what you're doing, and you have rejected British values. | 0:52:57 | 0:52:59 | |
-There is no question about that. -That's exactly right. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:02 | |
I think that alone is evidence of terrorism. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:04 | |
And I don't support killing British citizens abroad with drones, | 0:53:04 | 0:53:07 | |
which is what was proposed. | 0:53:07 | 0:53:09 | |
I don't understand how our government, | 0:53:09 | 0:53:11 | |
passionately against the death penalty, | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
can be in favour of using drones. | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
I think when you come back to the country, you've been to Syria, | 0:53:15 | 0:53:17 | |
that's evidence of terrorism. | 0:53:17 | 0:53:19 | |
-It's not a death penalty, it is a conflict. -What, the drones aren't? | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
-They are in a conflict. -Let me finish the point. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:24 | |
It's not a death penalty. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
But I think you charge them, and attempt to put them in prison, | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
and I think this point about "a dead terrorist can't cause us any harm" - | 0:53:29 | 0:53:32 | |
actually, dead terrorists inspire martyrs, | 0:53:32 | 0:53:34 | |
and I think dead terrorists can cause more harm | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
than a living terrorist in prison. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:39 | |
Liz. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:40 | |
Why do we think that meeting barbarism with barbarism | 0:53:40 | 0:53:43 | |
will result in civilising? | 0:53:43 | 0:53:46 | |
Let's go back to the Second World War. | 0:53:46 | 0:53:48 | |
The Nuremberg trials realised that to bring peace, | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
you must bring justice. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
We will have blood feuds forever in the Middle East | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
unless we bring peace. | 0:53:56 | 0:53:57 | |
We will have martyrs back here, | 0:53:57 | 0:53:58 | |
it will be an incentive for people back here, | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
and let us remember that in 2007, Safer Neighbourhood teams of police | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
had six officers working in London. | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
Now, in Manchester, the murderer in Manchester was on the police radar. | 0:54:08 | 0:54:12 | |
We need to enforce our community policing | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
to make sure that we keep ourselves safe... | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
And would you allow anybody who's fought back into this country, | 0:54:18 | 0:54:21 | |
which was the question that was asked? Just briefly. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
I have done work with the Yazidi community, | 0:54:24 | 0:54:26 | |
and they need to have justice done, for those women who were raped, | 0:54:26 | 0:54:30 | |
who saw their brothers and sons and husbands murdered, | 0:54:30 | 0:54:32 | |
we, as an international community, | 0:54:32 | 0:54:34 | |
with the International Criminal Court, | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
have a duty of justice for those people. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
-Kate Andrews. -Liz is completely right. | 0:54:38 | 0:54:40 | |
What separates everyone sitting in this room today | 0:54:40 | 0:54:43 | |
from the people who go off and fight for Isis, | 0:54:43 | 0:54:45 | |
who target children and rape women, | 0:54:45 | 0:54:47 | |
is that we respect human rights, and we respect the rule of law. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:51 | |
And if they don't make it back to Britain, | 0:54:51 | 0:54:53 | |
we're not going to shed a tear for them, but if they do, | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
they should be brought in, they should be tried, | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
they should have due process, they should feel the full weight | 0:54:58 | 0:55:01 | |
of their decisions on their shoulders, | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
-and they should be locked up for life. -OK. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:05 | |
Right, last... Um, | 0:55:06 | 0:55:08 | |
Joshua. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:10 | |
Joshua Baynon. | 0:55:10 | 0:55:12 | |
Last quick question, Joshua. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:14 | |
Does the panel envisage another general election | 0:55:14 | 0:55:16 | |
within the next six months? | 0:55:16 | 0:55:18 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:55:18 | 0:55:19 | |
That's back to the pantomime we began with! | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
All right, quickly round the table, start on the right. | 0:55:22 | 0:55:26 | |
I think it's unlikely. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:27 | |
I think there's no appetite for it, but I think the way things are going | 0:55:27 | 0:55:33 | |
for Theresa May, it's sort of...60/40, I'd put it at. | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
OK, we have to be quick, because we're running out... | 0:55:36 | 0:55:38 | |
All I've learnt in my short time in politics is six months from now, | 0:55:38 | 0:55:42 | |
-it will be completely different to what's happening now. -Bernard? -No. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:45 | |
Thank you. Owen? | 0:55:45 | 0:55:47 | |
Tories are adept at hanging onto power, | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
they will hang on to the very last minute, I fear. | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
What, so you wouldn't try and unseat them at this stage? | 0:55:51 | 0:55:53 | |
We're definitely going to try and unseat them, but my point is, | 0:55:53 | 0:55:56 | |
they're very, very good, and very assiduous | 0:55:56 | 0:55:58 | |
when it comes to holding on. | 0:55:58 | 0:55:59 | |
You were going to have it for Christmas! | 0:55:59 | 0:56:01 | |
-Well, I'd like to say it, Bernard, but... -Kate? | 0:56:01 | 0:56:03 | |
No, but I do think that Mrs May | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
may end up handing post-Brexit Britain to Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
And... | 0:56:08 | 0:56:09 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
Round of applause! | 0:56:11 | 0:56:12 | |
I wasn't advocating for that - I just think that might happen. | 0:56:12 | 0:56:14 | |
They like that! | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
-Joshua... -I wasn't advocating for it, but it might happen. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
-..your last shout, what do you think? -Well... | 0:56:19 | 0:56:22 | |
I think she's finding it difficult now to govern | 0:56:22 | 0:56:24 | |
without a parliamentary majority - she did always warn us | 0:56:24 | 0:56:26 | |
about a coalition of chaos, she just never said it would be with her! | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:56:29 | 0:56:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:56:30 | 0:56:32 | |
OK. | 0:56:32 | 0:56:33 | |
Right, well, our hour is up, thank you very much. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:38 | |
Next Thursday, now, | 0:56:38 | 0:56:39 | |
questions are going to come from Barnsley in Yorkshire. | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
We've got on the panel, I think the former Education Secretary, | 0:56:43 | 0:56:47 | |
Nicky Morgan, who's now a key Remainer on the backbenches. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:50 | |
You sit apart on the backbench of the Tory party, | 0:56:50 | 0:56:54 | |
you saying one thing, and she saying another. | 0:56:54 | 0:56:56 | |
-I get on very well with Nicky. -I'm sure you do, | 0:56:56 | 0:56:58 | |
but you disagree absolutely about almost every aspect of Brexit. | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
-Not every aspect - one or two things. -One or two important things. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:04 | |
Anyway, Labour's Shadow Business Secretary | 0:57:04 | 0:57:06 | |
is going to be with us, too, Rebecca Long-Bailey, | 0:57:06 | 0:57:08 | |
and Professor Robert Winston, the scientist and broadcaster. | 0:57:08 | 0:57:13 | |
That is next Thursday, then there's a gap for Christmas, | 0:57:13 | 0:57:17 | |
then we'll be in Islington in London on January 11. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:20 | |
Now, if you can come to either of those programmes, | 0:57:20 | 0:57:23 | |
you'd be obviously extremely welcome to engage with our panel. | 0:57:23 | 0:57:26 | |
The number to call: | 0:57:26 | 0:57:28 | |
Or you can apply to the website - the address is on there, | 0:57:31 | 0:57:33 | |
and follow the instructions. | 0:57:33 | 0:57:34 | |
If you're listening to this, as many people do, in the bath, | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
on Radio 5Live, you know | 0:57:37 | 0:57:40 | |
Question Time Extra Time follows us, | 0:57:40 | 0:57:42 | |
with more discussion of all points we've been making, | 0:57:42 | 0:57:45 | |
but my thanks to our panel here, and to all of you who came to Swansea. | 0:57:45 | 0:57:50 | |
Until Thursday next, from Question Time, good night. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:57:53 | 0:57:55 |