14/12/2017 Question Time

Tonight we are in Barnsley

and welcome to Question Time.

On our panel tonight,

the Conservative MP, former

Education Secretary Nicky Morgan,

who was one of the 11

Tories who voted against

the Government last night.

And, Rebecca Long-Bailey,

Labour's Shadow secretary

for business, she's been an MP

for two years, and was an early

supporter of Jeremy Corbyn

as Labour Leader.

The scientist, broadcaster, expert

on the joys and pains of childhood,

Professor Robert Winston,

the former Political Editor of

the Sunday Times and the Daily Mail,

the fervent Brexiteer,

Isabel Oakeshott.

And that rarity on the standup

circuit, a comedian who votes

Conservative and voted Brexit

and survived those audiences,

so tonight should be a walk

in the park for Geoff

Norcott.

APPLAUSE.

Thank you very much.

Now, of course, from home you can,

as always argue the toss

using #BBCQT on Twitter,

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If you tweet about Question Time,

you may not have seen this,

it was reported this week

that we are the second most tweeted

programme in Britain on television

and only love island gets more

tweets than we do.

So I'm applying to go on love

island in the next series.

So our first question tonight

from James Powers, please.

When will some MPs stop

trying to subvert the will

of the people on Brexit?

APPLAUSE.

Are you thinking of anyone

around this table, James?

Nicky Morgan, you'd better start?

I think that might be aimed at me.

Last night was not about doing that,

we've had the referendum,

we had the vote in June 2016

and people have made the decision

to leave the European Union.

The question is how we leave

the European Union.

Well, this is one of the issues

because the referendum's proved

I think the most divisive thing

I have ever come across

in my political career.

I've been involved in politics

for almost 30 years and it's

something we have to have a proper

debate about and actually if we are

going to continually revert

to labels, misrepresentations,

threats, bullying, intimidation,

then we are not going to do the best

by the country which is now

about getting the best possible deal

in the European Union.

What were you trying

to achieve then?

APPLAUSE.

We know everybody, the majority

of people in this country voted

Brexit, what is the idea of last

night's vote except to change

the deal the Prime Minister might

get, what is the aim of it?

The same to make sure the UK

Parliament like the EU Parliament

The aim is to make sure the UK

Parliament like the EU Parliament

has a meaningful say

on the final deal.

I thought the vote was given to us

the people under the referendum...

Well...

APPLAUSE.

Well the decision to

leave has been made.

I mean that has been and gone,

so those who voted to leave,

many of them still don't seem to be

able to accept that that has

happened, it's protecting that,

rather than debating how

we are going to leave and I'm afraid

as a constituency Member

of Parliament I'm absolutely

going to stand up for the economic

security of my constituents,

the values that we have as a country

and our constitution.

In this current Bill

that was being debated,

we had a lot of powers that

were going to come back

to the Government, to the executive,

and not be scrutinised by

Parliament.

I'm afraid as a backbencher

of Parliament that is not right and,

just because we have a precedent

now, we say this is just for Brexit,

what happens next time Parliament's

got round so that the Government

can carry on.

People will say, what on earth

were you doing as Members

of Parliament not scrutinising this

at the time.

Isabel Oakeshott?

I'm sorry Nicky but I think this

is sanctimoniousd twole.

I'm sorry Nicky but I think this

is sanctimoniousd twoddle.

We have heard a lot

from you about putting

country before party.

I think this is all about

you actually because you because you

don't believe in Brexit,

to you, ultimately you say you've

accepted it's going to happen

but I don't think that you believe

in it and I think this is about...

Why don't we have

a loyalty test now.

OK if we are going to

get on to loyalty...

You have got

to embrace it, love it

and agree with it.

I'm really happy you have brought us

on to the question of loyalty

because I wonder how

you as a Conservative

MP felt as you trotted

through the lobbies last night

night with Labour...

Sick actually...

With Labour MPs.

You were later to be heard

singing the red flag.

How did you feel.

No, I was not.

I have no idea.

APPLAUSE.

I didn't hear anyone

singing anything.

You have humiliated

the Prime Minister, you have

undermined her negotiating position.

And you are not standing

up for what the people

of this country voted for.

Hold on, I'll come to you both.

Right, of course, Rebecca

Long-Bailey was there, Labour

were in the opposition lobbies.

How do you answer the question?

Brexit is going to happen

whatever people's opinions

might be of Brexit.

Last night's vote was not

an attempt to block Brexit,

it was to give Parliament the right

to scrutinise and vote

on the final deal.

What does scrutinise mean, sorry,

a very simple question.

What does scrutinise mean if it

doesn't mean change the deal that

has been negotiated?

Well, we don't know whether we'll

have scope to change the final deal,

that will be up to Europe to decide

whether we might be able

to bring things back

to the negotiating table.

It gives us the option

of scrutinising the final deal

and assessing whether no deal

or the deal on the table

is best for the country.

At the moment, the Government wanted

to push through their deal

without any Parliamentary oversight

and the way that they've dealt

with Brexit so far quite

frankly has been shambolic.

APPLAUSE.

They told us that they'd carried out

impact assessments of various

sectors, yet a few months later

they tell us the impact

assessments don't exist.

We had Philip Hammond threatening

to turn the UK into a tax haven

if we didn't get the deal we wanted.

So I'm not about to let

the Conservatives have a Blank

cheque to write away

our economic destiny.

APPLAUSE.

Rebecca Long-Bailey,

you said something,

I think you said this,

I think you said, we'll

have the power to decide

whether what's on the table or no

deal is better...

Is that what you mean,

you don't want to...

Brexit will happen

whatever the outcome.

You but do you want

the power to change the deal

that the Prime Minister

and David Davis and the others have

negotiated, or do you just

want the power to say,

we don't like that at all,

Labour's policy is no-deal?

We don't want to have a no-deal

option but what last

night's amendment gave us

was the opportunity to scrutinise

the deal and request

that the Government go back

to Europe if we want to amend

certain parts of it.

Now, that's not to say that

Europe will agree to that.

But it's an option now that

wasn't there before.

All right.

Let's hear from...

We have a lot of people

with their hands up.

Let's hear from members

of our audience one by one.

You here on the right, madam?

You bounce it round like a tennis

ball, it goes backwards

and forwards, backwards and forwards

until we'll all expire before

we ever get there, I'm afraid.

Because you think it's

just going to go on?

I think it will get thrown back.

Why can't you all agree to go

down an agreed path.

It doesn't sound as though this

audience can agree so I don't know

how the House of Commons can agree.

You, there?

It showed political naivety

because all you have done is taken

the negotiating arm away

from the Government

that we sent off to negotiate.

APPLAUSE.

If you've ever been in a negotiation

to sit at a negotiating table

and get told, right,

are you prepared to deal,

have you got the authority to deal,

they can't say that now,

they've got no authority to deal.

Nicky Morgan, do you

want to answer him?

I'm afraid I disagree.

The EU Parliament is also

going to have a vote so that

would also apply in that case

to the EU negotiators.

It's not our Parliament.

It is about our Parliament.

Our Parliament's got to come back

and you could potentially put us

into a no-deal Brexit because if it

gets to the end of the clock

ticking and we can't agree,

where do we end up?

There are some people who want

there to be a no-deal.

That would be deeply

damaging for the country.

It's making sure...

You've got what you wanted.

What we have got is the opportunity

for the UK Parliament

to look at the final deal,

we are kept informed

as we were last week,

Parliament was very supportive

of the Prime Minister's achievement

in getting on to the day two talks.

on to the phase two talks.

You are killing it.

You don't even understand,

you are killing it by committing.

There's that many people

involved now, we are never

going to get a good deal.

Let's pause there.

Robert Winston?

Can we just cut out the rhetoric

for a second, it might be helpful.

First of all, I never thought

I would say this to Nicky Morgan

but I congratulate you for you vote

last night, I think

it was a brilliant vote.

APPLAUSE.

I think you did exactly

what was in the spirit

of the whole Brexit issue.

The reason why people voted

for Brexit was because they wanted

to have the sovereignty

of the British Parliament

and what you ensured last

night was the sovereignty

of the British Parliament so that

Parliament can have a say in how

things are negotiated.

That was something

which was splendid to do

and I congratulate you.

I read the whole of the Hansard very

carefully, every word of that debate

and looked at who spoke and I'm very

impressed by the standard

of the debate, I think

it was a very, very high standard.

There are some real

problems we have to face.

For example, in the NHS,

there is a massive problem

growing because of Brexit.

There is also the issue of Euratom.

For example, we now no longer

will have any kind of relationship

with Europe over atomic isotopes.

That means it will affect

the whole of cancer therapy,

all sorts of drug-making,

all kinds of issues which affect

medical treatment on a day-to-day

basis in our hospitals,

leaving aside the manpower

crisis which is growing.

There are all sorts of other issues

which need to be disentangled.

That's why we absolutely have

to have this negotiation and it has

to be run by Parliament.

It can't be run by Brussels.

APPLAUSE.

I'll come to you?

I just speak as perhaps

the non-politician, non-journalist.

When I was on the show earlier this

year I started off by saying I felt

sorry for Theresa May and I can't

believe I'm going to say it again,

I did feel sorry for her,

she's had quite a year,

you know, coughing up a fur ball

at the Party Conference,

calling an election she didn't win,

squirming on the couch

at The One Show.

She might have felt reasonably

entitled to think that having gotten

through a difficult first phase

in the negotiation, that she might

be able to go home at Christmas

and enjoy her mince pies.

I'll take you at face value Nicky,

in what you are saying in terms

of wanting to do the right thing

by the country, but I don't know

if the net effect might be different

to what you intend and the Tory

rebels have to be careful

because May's grip on power

is tenuous at best.

You might get a harder

Brexiteer in charge in tend,

You might get a harder Brexiteer

in charge in the end,

somebody perhaps like

Jeremy Corbyn, perhaps.

And I think the real crux

of this issue always seems

to come down to this.

It's a single market.

Every argument comes back to single

market and freedom of movement

and the freedom of movement

thing is important.

I grew up in London and my

experience of immigration

was an incredibly positive things.

But London isn't Britain.

It's important to say that.

London isn't Britain.

And people's experience

of immigration around the country

is wildly different and when you saw

the MPs waving their order papers

last night and cheering,

there is a lot of the country that

wouldn't have looked on that well.

There is a lot of leave voters

like me that think see immigration

as a necessary and welcome part

of any liberal democracy,

but that perhaps it shouldn't be

unlimited in perpetuity and that

that decision shouldn't

be taken elsewhere.

I welcome some immigration

but that decision should be

taken here and not in

Brussels.

APPLAUSE.

You, Sir?

I really couldn't agree more

with Nicky and Robert.

The leave campaign all throughout

the Brexit referendum shouted

and yelled about sovereignty

for the UK Parliament,

sovereignty for the UK and then

when Nicky bravely votes for that,

suddenly she's being attacked,

do you know what I mean?

It doesn't make sense.

Isabel?

Can I pick up on that

because where exactly was Nicky

when sovereignty was seeded

to Brussels over decades?

I didn't see Nicky

manning the barricades.

I want to make another point

which is about trust

here and I think we've got a real

issue with trust in our MPs to carry

out the will of the people.

If you just take

Barnsley as an example.

68% of people in Barnsley

voted to leave.

Unfortunately, 73% of our MPs

are remainers and that is now

being played out in the Houses

of Parliament in a way that erodes

trust in the execution

of the will of the people.

That is a real problem.

The man on the gangway

there, you in blue, yes?

We are constantly being told

by these elite politicians,

and obviously she's done a really

treacherous act last night

against the Conservative Party,

but the lady on the other side

is in a party that should be

defending the working class

communities that this town is,

and their parties tending

towards the single market now

which is unrestricted migration.

That is what this town overall voted

leave to stop, because it damaged

the working class communities.

She's worse than her in effect

and her party's doing more damage

to these communities

if we are going to hear

that Keir Starmer keep

on about the single market's

on its way back.

That's what we wouldn't have

in these working class

traditional communities.

You're stabbing us in the back

if you're going to carry

on what happened last night

with those treacherous rebels

and bring that down upon us.

And when he says about

Parliamentary sovereignty,

the people are the sovereign

to put their representatives

in a Parliament, and

we made our decision.

We know why we made it, I know

you say we are thick up north,

but I remember voting on my ballot

paper, and it said Leave or Remain,

and it didn't say when I put my box

in Leave, now turn to question two,

do you want the soft

Brexit or the hard Brexit?

APPLAUSE AND SOME CHEERING.

Rebecca Long-Bailey.

Look, we're quite clear that

Brexit is going to happen,

but we want a deal that

puts our economy...

Act like it then.

Drop the single market.

Give her a fair shout.

Last night was important because,

over the past few weeks,

it's been very rarely reported

as to the amendments that were put

through in the EU Withdrawal Bill,

when the Conservatives voted

against Labour's amendments to make

sure workers' rights were protected,

they voted against Labour's

amendments to make sure

that our environmental rights

and safeguards were protected,

they haven't dealt

with the Euratom issue,

as Robert has discussed earlier,

and they also didn't look

at specific sectors,

specific parts of crucial industry

that reflect areas of Barnsley,

areas of Salford, where I'm from,

where, if we didn't get a good deal

from the European Union,

we would be on our knees

economically, and that doesn't

support working people.

APPLAUSE.

But just stick with his point.

He said he voted out and Labour

wants a single market, I think,

in the words John McDonnell used.

They want easy immigration.

You know, what is it about vote

leave that you accept?

We want a common arrangement

with the European Union that

allows us to trade freely

so that the industries

we have here...

That's what the Conservatives do.

So the industries we have here can

trade in the best way possible.

Theresa May is trying to get that.

In terms of free movement,

we recognise that coming out

of the European Union means that

free movement will end.

Keir Starmer isn't saying that.

We want to use that

as an opportunity to end

the undercutting of pay by people

that have been shipped

in from Europe...

But we are hearing Keir Starmer,

I heard him last Sunday,

and he mentioned the single market.

He said he wanted similar benefits

that we currently have

within the single market.

He didn't say he wanted to stay

as a member of the single market.

He did say he wanted easy movement,

rather than free movement,

whatever that means.

The man up there, three

down on the gangway.

You, sir.

Yes.

The EU are never going to give us

a good deal because,

whatever we think is a good deal,

it's a bad deal for them.

Not necessarily.

So all this bickering,

when you are having a go

at Theresa May, weak

as she is at the moment, you are

just undermining our country

and our so-called chance to try

and get a good deal.

Brian, you want to say something.

Robert, I mean.

Well, I don't think

that's true at all.

A bad deal for us doesn't

mean it's a good deal

for Europe or vice versa.

In fact, a good deal

for both of us would be...

They can't give us a good deal

because it looks bad on them.

There is a future here

for the whole of Western Europe,

including Britain, to actually live

in a way which is going to be

mutually satisfactory,

and it's very foolish to think

in terms of what is a good deal

for us is a bad deal

for them or vice versa.

That's not how it works.

That's not how dealership works.

I have to say, it's all very well

talking about trust,

but the difficulty of course

is that, if you have a very weak

and undermined Prime

Minister, these debates

which we are having in Parliament

at the moment look rather stark,

but they need to be had.

They are really essential.

At the moment, to the gentleman over

there who is worried about financial

things in Yorkshire,

believe me, I understand that.

I have a huge love for Yorkshire.

I've spent a lot of my

working time in Yorkshire.

But the fact is you also want cancer

treatment in Yorkshire,

and there's a real risk

that the machines and the drugs

and the other things that we need,

such as the isotopes,

will not be available to us

unless we actually drive

a very difficult bargain,

and that's a very

complicated issues.

You are in the House of Lords,

and the stories are that the House

of Lords are going to be much

rougher on anything Theresa May

comes back with, or David

Davis comes back with,

than the House of Commons.

Is that true, do you think?

I was rather hoping you weren't

going to raise that!

One of the issues about the vote

last night is it does drive a chink

through the debate when it comes

to the House of Lords.

You're going to come back

to your report stage presumably

in the Commons anyway.

That will be the next stage.

But eventually this will have to go

through both Houses of Parliament,

and I think the House of Lords may

take a very, a more collected view

than actually what has

happened in the Commons,

because I think a lot of the things

which were represented in that

debate yesterday from the people

who I saw speaking so volubly

and so well are often reflected

in many debates we have

in the House of Lords.

To cut to the chase, is this,

as some people may suspect,

the beginning of a movement that

will lead us not

actually leaving the EU?

This comes back to the problem

with the referendum.

I notice you don't say no.

Well, I'll come to that, if I may.

One of the problems is this shows

the foolishness of having

a vote like a referendum,

which was a referendum

with a simple yes.

Why is it foolish?

Over a complicated issue.

It's very unsatisfactory,

and we are seeing some

of the results of that.

It's something that the House

of Lords tried to prevent very hard.

The House of Lords was pretty wise.

We put down innumerable

amendments which would have

prevented this happening.

You haven't answered my question.

You think it might not happen.

It could possibly, but I think

it's very unlikely.

If it doesn't happen,

Nicky Morgan will be

the first step towards that.

I think that's up to Nicky Morgan.

I don't think so.

Look, it's going to happen.

We're going to leave

the European Union.

But what you've been involved

in is the beginning of the death

of Brexit by 1000 amendments.

No, it's not.

They're going to try and strangle...

I think it's dangerous.

There was a massive turnout,

and it's not a zero-sum game.

What they realise, there wasn't

the will in the country

for a second referendum,

and they'd try to do it

a different but there

was a huge turnout for this.

There was a clear majority,

admittedly not a huge majority,

and I think the democratic

consequences of this,

it's not a zero-sum game.

I don't think it's the same

as somebody like Farage that thinks

that there will be civil

disobedience, because I think this

country is better than that,

but I think there may be

disengagement and people

may start looking

for more radical parties.

I entirely agree with you that

actually, if this were not happen,

leaving the European Union,

it would, as Members of Parliament,

it would totally undermine

the democracy and the vote we have

had, and that is why I voted

to trigger Article 50,

I voted to give the EU

Withdrawal Bill its second

reading, I voted to repeal

the European Communities Act 1972.

But yes, I would like

Parliament to be involved

in the process going forward.

The gentleman up here talked

about representatives.

That's exactly what we have,

a representative democracy.

You're also right to say that,

on that ballot paper,

there were only two options,

Leave or Remain.

It didn't say how we were going

to leave, nor the deal

that we are going to get.

The woman in the second

row from the back.

People on the panel talked

about trust, and other people

in the audience have said the vote

last night takes away the power

from the people negotiating.

I don't trust David

Davis and Theresa May

to negotiate a deal for me.

APPLAUSE.

I didn't vote for them.

I voted for my MP in Parliament,

and my MP in Parliament should be

part of scrutinising whatever deal

we should get.

And you, sir.

All of this is irrelevant anyway.

It doesn't matter that

11 Conservative MPs

revolted last night.

It doesn't matter what Labour

or the Conservatives think.

The decision for Brexit

is going to come down to the DUP,

who can't even keep a devolved

government in Ireland together.

That's the problem.

The man in blue.

Let's hear some more

members of the audience.

A lot of hands are up.

In the third row from the back.

Because of the way MPs voted last

night, they have massively

increased our chances

of getting no deal,

increased our chances of getting no

deal, because the amount of time it

takes for an act of Parliament to be

passed and for there to be approval

from MPs, it takes a while,

and we are unlikely to get a deal

until late in March 2019,

looking at it positively,

and so then you've

got to pass an act

of Parliament, so there's a massive

chance that we are going to get

to 29th of March 2019 and we're not

going to have a deal and we're just

going to go off a cliff edge,

and that's mainly because of the way

MPs voted last night.

And do you think it would be off

a cliff edge, or do you think it

would just be an extended year

or two of negotiation?

They talked about transition,

but none of that's been confirmed

yet so, as it stands,

if MPs are going to vote

like that, we're just

going to go off a cliff edge.

It's an important point.

It is an important point,

and there are three things

I want to say in response.

Firstly, the government had already

conceded several weeks ago

that we were going to have an act

of Parliament which would approve

the withdrawal agreement.

Secondly, acts of

Parliament can be got

through both houses very speedily.

Third, the European Parliament

is expecting their voting process

to start next autumn, October 2018.

Obviously, it's a big challenge

to negotiate everything

and have the detail,

but that's what everyone

is aiming for.

The fourth thing is that you've just

proven why the amendment

that is down for having a hard date

of the 29th of March 2019

11pm is not a good idea,

and it's because things can just

take a little bit longer.

We saw that with the way Theresa May

worked when she had the knock back

at the start of last week.

She worked and worked,

moved away from the negotiating

deadline the EU had set,

she got to last Friday and she got

a deal to get us on to phase two.

It doesn't help that you are trying

to delay the process.

No, I'm not trying

to delay the process.

All we are saying is

what the audience have said,

which is that the campaign

was about taking back control.

Control is going to come back

to this sovereign Parliament,

where representatives have been

elected by Members of Parliament.

You, sir, in the spectacles.

I voted to leave, but one

of the things is I did realise

that it's going to be

a complicated situation.

It is not going to happen overnight,

and some people think you vote yes,

we're going to leave,

away we go.

It doesn't work like that.

There's too much to sort out,

too much to agree, and too much

importance on our poverty.

We've got enough as it is now.

We don't want to have any more.

If we can sort it out

so we get a better deal,

we get better trade, then so be it.

And what's your view about the role

Parliament should play,

as Nicky Morgan has expressed it?

I think they should

vote on the final.

That's why we elect people.

If we don't like what they say,

we deselect them.

APPLAUSE.

It's easy.

The man up there on

the gangway, in pink.

The difficulty is that we set

off on the wrong foot.

For me, this was an issue

of national importance,

and I believe at that point

we should have had a cross-party

committee, all sides represented.

The difficulty is we've got one

party representing us

in Europe, and I think that's just

quite narrow minded.

I know why I elected my MP,

and I voted to leave

purely on those grounds,

that we would have the capacity

to go out there and negotiate

with cross-party representation,

so I think, up to a point,

I agree with you, Nicky.

I do actually believe you're not

representing your constituency

properly, because they are obviously

a Leave constituency.

Debatable.

I think you were right last night.

I think we need to debate it.

As for scrutiny, I think

the media will do its role.

I think Brexit will be

scrutinised more than anything.

And the man on the other side

of the gangway, and then

we'll come back to you.

I do believe that the Tories

didn't have any game plan.

Initially, the first round talks,

can they tell us what they actually

got out of the first round talks?

It's all EU giveaways.

The EU let us off the 35 million.

Initially, they wanted

about 80 million or so.

Figures were being bandied around.

Or 80 billion, sorry.

So what is it that

David Davis achieved

in the first round of talks?

Can they tell us that?

So I applaud you for sticking out

and making sure that we review

whatever they bring back.

Isabel Oakeshott.

Well, I think, this is a really good

point, and no one should feel that,

just because we originally thought

we'd have to pay 70 or 80 billion,

35 is actually fantastic.

It's still an awful lot of money.

But we have to be pragmatic

about these things.

I want to pick up on what

Lord Winston was saying,

because I thought it was really

interesting that he wasn't actually

denying the possibility that

Brexit might not happen.

And there are other Labour peers

for whom I have a great respect,

for example, Lord Adonis,

who said today that last night

result was the first step

towards stopping Brexit.

We should not make any mistake

about how powerful the vested

interests are in making sure

that we stay in the EU,

and they will stop at

nothing, make no mistake.

APPLAUSE.

Isabel, forgive me.

I love Andrew Adonis,

he's a lovely man,

but I completely disagree with him.

I was asked a straight question,

whether this would make any

difference, and of course it's

absolutely impossible

to predict the future.

Clearly, there is a momentum,

to use perhaps the wrong word...

With a small M, rather

than a large one.

Yes, which might in fact leave

a chink for that possibility.

Whether that is a good thing

or a bad thing is an issue,

but it's inevitable,

when you have a parliamentary

discussion, that things change.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not saying I'm supporting

not having Brexit.

And I'm certainly not

supporting Andrew Adonis.

Andrew Adonis is his own man.

I'll take a couple more points

and then we'll move on.

From you, and then I'll come

to you in the front row.

Nicky points out that

it's got to stop, that

within minutes of them voting,

Anna Soubry and others

were tweeting out, now we can stop

in the single market, customs union.

45 minutes later, the EU chief

negotiator tweeted it out,

so if he thinks it's a good idea,

it suggests it's an

establishment stitch up.

Right.

And do you agree with that?

No?

No.

I've got dual nationality.

I'm both a British citizen

and a European national.

I'd like to know if this

is an opportunity to rethink

and reboot Europe, and what place

in Europe will Britain have?

You can't deny the history you've

had for thousands of years,

so what happens next?

And what do you think should happen?

I'm not the politician.

You are glad you have

dual nationality?

I am, yes.

Yes.

Just before we go,

Rebecca Long-Bailey,

you haven't spoken for a bit.

What do you say to this idea that

behind all of this is a challenge

from an establishment,

whatever that might be,

to see off the idea of Brexit

and to find a way of procrastinating

so that in the end we don't

actually quite leave?

No.

I think the vast majority

of MPs in Parliament

respect the referendum,

as I do, we want to make sure that

Brexit is delivered and we want

an economy first Brexit.

Now what is interesting about last

night was that it was

an embarrassment for the Prime

Minister.

It showed she couldn't

hold her Government together.

It puts pressure on her now to work

on a cross party basis and make sure

that people's concerns are actually

listened to and that she can put

forward a final deal that satisfies

as many people as possible

and delivers the best deal possible

because nobody wants to vote

against a deal and nobody that I've

spoken to, there might be a small

minority that want no-deal

as an option but the vast majority

don't want no-deal.

Rebecca, your party embarrasses

itself every single day on Brexit.

I'm compltely confused

about your party's position.

It changes with the wind.

Do you want to leave

the single markets?

We recognise that when we leave

the European Union we come out

of the single market.

I think that's quite clear.

Do you want free movement,

easy movement, what is it?

I already made the point, you should

have been paying attention...

APPLAUSE.

It made no more sense to me.

I stated we recognise that

free movement would end,

we recognise there have been abuses,

the undercutting of wages

through the use of agency staff that

have been brought over to the UK

on the other hand is not

acceptable and we need

to have a system of reasonable

and fair managed migration.

You can't possibly say the Tory

position is shambolic

though because yours is.

But it is.

All right.

We must stop.

The man in the centre.

You want to pick up

on what they were saying.

The man here?

It's obviously going to go

through Parliament but obviously

listening to Lord Winston,

you are going to have problems

in the House of Lords

with all the amendments so it's

going to go on and on from one

Parliament to the next.

I can tell the man clearly

states there's going to be

problems with the Lord's...

So abolish the Lord's

or abolish Parliament?

We are not saying abolish the Lord's

but divisions are at the table.

OK.

Before we start.

Was that abolish Parliament

or abolish the House of Lords -

I wasn't quite sure.

You, Sir?

I think that all the politicians

right on the day after

the referendum never ever expected

the result that they

got and that's why...

APPLAUSE.

And that's why I think everyone

of them from all parties looked

in the mirror that following morning

and said right, guys,

girls, what's in it for me

and how can further myself.

So confusion reigned,

in other words?

Yes.

One more point from there,

at the top on the right?

Thank you.

I do believe that following

the referendum, and especially

coming from Barnsley myself,

that there seems to be an irrational

fear that the United Kingdom

is incapable of standing

on its own in the world.

It's definitely resonant

in offices throughout

the UK on the street,

in the pub, having a beer, smoke,

whatever you are doing.

People don't want -

I personally believe people don't

want to argue that all right,

we'll go with the extreme left

policies, the extreme

right policies.

At the end of the day,

we are leaving the European Union.

Well, I believe we are,

based on the vote that we took.

The vote that you put.

You voted Brexit, did you?

Erm...

You don't have to say?

I'm going to admit that yes I did

vote for Brexit, yes.

I'm not going to say that

I did it reluctantly,

I have been a vehement left wingser

the majority of my life,

especially coming from Barnsley

and being an ethnic minority.

I just think that, as we progress,

I do believe that there really

is an irrational fear

that the United Kingdom cannot

survive without some sort

of attachment or allegiance

to the European Union.

Please, just thereon

the will of the people

Please, just listen

to the will of the people

and leave the European Union.

OK.

APPLAUSE.

Right, well, I think we'd better

move on because we are half way

through the programme.

Just before we go on to another

question, I should say,

we are not on next week,

we are off for Christmas.

We are back in January,

we are going to be in Islington

in London and the week after that

in herred for and on the screen

in London and the week after that

in Hereford and on the screen

are the details of how to apply.

Let's have a complete change

of subject and have a question

from Linda Wilson, please?

Yes.

Should the Government fund voucher

payments of up to £200 to encourage

women to breast-feed their babies?

Good Lord...

You are all looking surprised.

I couldn't hear the question.

Should the Government fund voucher

payments of £200 to encourage

mothers to breast-feed their babies.

It's rather up your street.

And this was a policy that's been

experimented with here,

come from Sheffield university.

Yes, I know.

I'm aware of the data.

And the idea is that you pay mothers

to breast-feed and this leads

to a healthier child.

We've got I think three mothers

round the table and many

mothers here, no doubt.

Let's go to you.

You are the child expert?

First of all, I think it's

a policy that wouldn't work,

but more importantly,

what we need to do is to persuade

people why it's good to breast-feed

and to point out that the value

to the baby is really very

considerable in all sorts of ways,

not only in its nutrition but also

in its defence against

infection and indeed

in its bonding with its mother.

Now, paying people does not improve

the bonding for a start,

and so there is a disconnect

here with this thinking.

I think it's very clear that one

of the problems with this campaign,

and the real difficulty,

is that because the NHS

is increasingly strapped with staff

which are desperately needed,

the midwives and nursing staff who'd

normally help women who're

inconfident of breast-feeding

are not always there and this has

been shown again and again that

if you have proper support

for mothers who are breast-feeding

or who're prepared

to try breast-feeding,

it makes a massive difference to how

long they'll breast-feed for.

What happens at the present time,

I'm afraid, ladies and gentlemen,

is a large number of women get very

frightened or feel very vulnerable,

feel like they're not

feeding their baby properly

and the baby's going to starve

so they give up breast-feeding

and take the bottle.

That's not ideal.

Paying is not the answer.

What is needed is much

better medical care.

They say there was a slight increase

in the number of women in this area.

Maybe, but, you know, the trouble

is, unless you have a good

comparitor with a properly

controlled trial -

these figures are very suspect.

The woman at the back there,

then we'll go around the panel.

I think it's a misnomer to say it's

down to funding now.

I had my children 20 years ago

and the support then

for breast-feeding was very poor.

There was very little support indeed

and I think one of the big problems

is that women don't feel comfortable

feeding in public because it's

ridiculous but there's

still a problem with breast-feeding

in public, including I believe

in the House of Commons.

I believe that women aren't

allowed to feed babies

in the House of Commons.

I may be wrong, but if that's

the case, that's ridiculous.

That's not true.

That taboo was broken, wasn't it?

Yes.

Elaine Hayman.

I don't know about the

chamber, I have to say.

Obviously in the building

and everything else,

it probably has been done and I hope

it wouldn't be a problem

if it were to be done.

But the point is right,

this issue of sensitivity

about showing breasts in public

and so on, it's a cultural issue

unfortunately and this is a very

negative comment on our society.

Breast-feeding is good,

it's healthy and it should be

permitted in public and we have

to encourage it.

APPLAUSE.

Isabel Oakeshott?

I would like to give a slightly

different point of view on this.

I think it's time that we ended

the breast-feeding tyranny.

I have three children,

I'm one of a very small minority.

I think it's about 2% of women

who actually physically did not

produce milk and I'd gone to my NCT

classes, I was desperate

to breast-feed, I'd had

all the information.

I know it's nutritionally the best,

I wish I could have done it,

you couldn't do it and I felt

absolutely awful about it.

It was heartbreaking

and really difficult.

And you know what, once I introduced

bottle-feeding and powdered milk,

my baby thrived, my other children

have thrived, there is nothing

wrong with powdered milk,

it is liberating for women,

they should not be made to feel

failures if they cannot breast-feed.

APPLAUSE.

I can't believe that

I'm going to say this

but I actually agree with you.

Now, I'm a mum and I did

feed my children myself

until they were at least a year old.

I found every single day,

every single feed hard work.

It was hellish.

However there is a point

I would like to make

here and I speak with some

experience on this.

How many of the panel understand

that there is artificial price

fixing of infant formula milk.

There is legislation that

exists today that means

that the supermarkets cannot

sell below cost.

That has led to artificial

price-fixing between the producers

and the manufacturers.

It is no surprise that there

is no own labelled brand

on the market for those reasons

because they are also held to ransom

by certain individuals and certain

campaigners that really do undermine

women's choices as to

whether to breast-feed or not.

Rebecca Long-Bailey,

did you know that that was...

It's a very interesting concept

and I'm hesitant to say that I agree

slightly with all of the comments

that have been made by all

of the panelist so far.

I think that in terms

of the support available to women,

certainly when I was a mother five

years ago, I've got a five-year-old

little boy, I found there was very

little support in terms

of breast-feeding advice.

When I did find that advice

I found it was heavily

weighted in all-or-nothing,

you had to breast-feed,

breast-feed, breast-feed,

there was no encouragement

to mix things up.

My husband wanted to be a hands

on parent and share the burden

of feeding my son and I felt

bad for mixing it up.

We tried it ourselves, it worked.

It's not done him any harm,

he's a strapping lad so far.

But the other issue I think,

and Robert's touch on this.

There is a funding

crisis in the NHS.

This information should be readily

available through public health

outlets but public health's seen

the greatest cuts it's

seen in a generation.

We have got the vast majority

of our hospital Trusts

on the edge a cliff,

61% of acute hospitals

are in deficit at the moment.

We have had cuts to the likes

of which we have never seen

before to our NHS budgets.

£6.3 billion from social care,

£600 million from mental health.

And the NHS was also asked...

I'm coming to it.

Was also asked to make £22 billion

in efficiency savings.

We were talking before,

the audience said to me, as chair,

can't you get them to answer

the question we ask.

APPLAUSE.

The point that...

And not just talk about anything

they want to talk about.

The question was about milk.

No.

The point I'm trying to make

is that we are talking about NHS

vouchers for breast-feeding.

£200.

They should already have the support

through our public health.

We don't due to NHS funding cuts.

The woman at the very

back there, please?

The question is about

breast-feeding.

It's not about money.

Why do we have to

incentivise everything.

Stop making it about money,

it's about culture of being able

to breast-feed and not shaming

anybody should they not be able to.

I couldn't agree more and I also

think the idea there is not

pressure on new mums

to breast-feed is ridiculous.

Midwives do a fantastic job,

but the way they keep saying,

it's your choice, it's up to you,

it ends up sounding like a Mafia

thing, but it's up to you,

we won't judge you.

They keep saying that.

They put a lot of pressure on my

wife and I was sympathetic to that.

I also think it's

a bizarre idea, £200.

Where's the verification

for this, do you do

it price per litre -

I've no idea.

Do you interrogate the child?

It's just...

APPLAUSE.

I couldn't agree more with the lady

here, it's about where

is personal responsibility.

There are so many

pressures on the NHS.

We often talk about funding

and the service itself but not

the undue demands that people

are increasingly making on the NHS

through avoidable illnesses,

through missing doctor appointments.

You are going off track.

The NHS, we want it to care for us,

we've got to do more to care for it,

that involves taking personal

responsibility for your own health.

OK.

We'll go on.

I would like to take a question now

from Kian Cross, please?

What should be done to tackle

the rise in homelessness.

What should be done -

a very straightforward question -

to tackle the rise in homelessness.

I was going to ask

you to start on that?

I've voted Conservative

for a long time.

It's not a blanket endorsement

of everything they do.

I gig a lot and tour in towns

and cities across the UK and it's

palpable over the last few years

the rise in homelessness and it's no

coincidence that in a period

where funding's halved,

homelessness has doubled.

I know the Government's heads

are turned at the moment on Brexit

and it's a very difficult time

around that but it's also a very

cold time of year and it's coming up

to Christmas and it would be good

if the Government could find a bit

of time to give the magic money tree

a shake and divert some funds

towardses homelessness really.

APPLAUSE.

Nicky Morgan, emergency funds?

Would that do it?

Actually, the Budget, I was just

thinking about the numbers.

Philip Hammond announced in November

£28 million for three Housing First

pilots in Manchester,

Liverpool and the West Midlands,

and these pilots have been very

successful about helping.

There are lots of complex

reasons for homelessness,

and also supporting people to tackle

the underlying issues.

I know as a constituency Member

of Parliament people will come

to you with help for one issue,

but there's a lot else going on.

When you say complex

reasons for homelessness,

isn't not having a home

the reason for it?

Debt, mental health, addictions...

And houses.

Alcohol.

Sorry, how long are the waiting

lists in this country for housing?

I'm afraid I don't have a number,

but obviously too long.

But there are also, just to give

a constituency example,

we have a gentleman who we have

helped several times now to get

a flat, but actually,

because of other issues in his life,

he isn't able to keep it, and his

neighbours, there are issues.

It's very frustrating.

He has a fabulous officer trying

to help him, and every time we think

we have hopefully got him

to the stage where he is taking

the responsibility of being

somewhere, something unfortunately

happens and we have to start again.

But you are talking about...

The figures show 80,000 householders

in temporary accommodation,

4,000 rough sleepers or more.

I mean, one person who has,

and obviously I don't

want to go into the detail,

a particular problem,

it doesn't answer the overall

question about homelessness.

Absolutely, and of course it's too

much, we need to build more

housing and social housing,

but it's also about

dealing with those needs.

The Housing First pilots,

we've committed to the

Homelessness Reduction Act...

SHOUTS FROM THE AUDIENCE.

Just do it!

Go on, you.

Just get on with it!

It's not just one man, it's

thousands and thousands of people.

Of course it is.

Children, children.

As you all know...

We've heard it all, time and time.

Just do it!

Get the money and do it.

The Homelessness Reduction Act...

Sort it!

APPLAUSE.

I'll come back to you.

Robert Winston.

Well, I think one of the issues,

Nicky, is that people who are living

in this part of Yorkshire see

something very real.

You know, I've been Chancellor

of Sheffield Hallam University,

my privilege, for the last 15

or so years, and Sheffield

was not in a great state

when I first took the job.

It's become a much more prosperous,

self-confident city with better

public services and better buildings

and so on.

But one thing that has

been really shocking,

and I noticed it particularly this

last two weeks, I spent two weeks

living in Sheffield,

was the number of people living

on the streets in appalling weather.

This is something which I haven't

seen in South Yorkshire

to this extent before,

and I think we have to accept

that this question is a very,

relevant question to many

parts of Britain.

It's certainly true in London.

I'm afraid it's very true

in this part of the world,

and it's an urgent issue.

I agree completely, there are a lot

of people with strange problems,

and addiction is obviously

one of them.

One clearly is mental ill-health.

But there are a lot of people

who simply don't have a roof

over their heads, and we need to do

much more about it.

Isabel.

APPLAUSE.

The lady in the front said,

just get on with it, just do it.

I'm going to agree with Nicky here.

She gave an example of how

you can't just do it.

In some cases, you can't

snap your fingers and provide...

You can find lots of money for other

things all of a sudden.

They have tried very hard...

Sorry, what did you say?

They find money for

all sorts like that.

It isn't just a case of money.

But do it!

They are.

One at a time.

You say...

Hang on.

You say that they find money

for all sorts of things, yes?

Is that your point?

Yes.

And they could find more money.

It isn't just a case of money,

but I think we have to be

careful about the way

the statistics are used.

There has been a rise

in homelessness...

Massive, huge.

And it is deplorable, and

particularly at this time of year.

It is horrible to see people rough

sleeping in this freezing weather,

coming up before Christmas.

However, the statistics don't always

tell the full story.

There is a difference between

homelessness, which is being...

I've seen it!

Could you let me finish.

There is a difference

between homelessness and rough

sleeping, so homelessness

is temporary accommodation,

bed and breakfast.

That isn't great and I'm not saying

it is, but this is a complex issue,

and I think mental health

is a really big issue

with it and more funding

for that, which this

government is doing.

OK.

The man up there on the right.

I am obviously one of the most

evil people on earth,

because I'm a private landlord.

The way to solve this homeless

problem is get rid of the 3%

landlord stamp duty,

because that stops me buying houses.

I normally buy one

or two houses a year.

RIPPLE OF LAUGHTER.

I'll buy every council house

and I'll do them up.

They're in a sorry state.

They are in a horrible state.

All right, let him speak.

Listen to what he's...

The council don't want to spend...

Hang on.

The woman in the centre, let him

speak and then I'll come to you,

if you want to argue with him.

Be quick if you would,

and then we'll go to the lady

in the centre who shouted out.

The Government has brought

in selective licensing in bits

of where I own properties,

and they are now making people

upgrade houses beyond the point

of what they would have to be

if they were new-build houses.