08/02/2018 Question Time


08/02/2018

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LineFromTo

Tonight, we're in Darlington

and welcome to Question Time.

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And with us here tonight,

a former banker and advisor

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to George Osborne, now

the Government's Energy

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Minister - Claire Perry.

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A human rights lawyer before

going into politics,

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and Jeremy Corbyn's occasional

stand-in at Prime

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Minister's Questions -

the Shadow Foreign Secretary,

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Emily Thornberry.

Property developer, champion

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of academy schools and co-chair

of the pro-Brexit pressure group

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Leave Means Leave, Richard Tice.

Rachel Sylvester, political

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columnist on The Times.

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And a long-standing supporter

of Manchester music

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and Manchester United,

the broadcaster,

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Terry Christian.

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APPLAUSE.

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And do remember, as ever, watching

at home, of course, using Twitter.

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Our hashtag is bbcqt.

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Twitter and Facebook

to carry on the arguments

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that are happening here.

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Our first question comes tonight

from Katie Woolsey, please.

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Should female Tesco check-out staff,

who want to be paid the same

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as male warehouse staff,

apply for a transfer

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into the warehouse?

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Right.

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Tesco, of course, who face,

it is said, something

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like a £4 billion bill for having

paid women in one area less

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than men in another.

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Richard Tice, you are a businessman.

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What do you think?

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Well look, we had the

Equal Pay Act in 1970.

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So we've got a fantastic start.

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But the reality is we've got to have

equal pay for equal jobs.

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I mean, that has to be

the basic understanding.

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If you start to try to compare

different, the value of different

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jobs within the same organisation,

then I think it becomes

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much more difficult.

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But it's always up for debate.

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We must always do better

than we are currently doing.

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It's a scandal that having had that

Equal Pay Act for over 40 years,

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these issues are still around,

whether it is in the BBC,

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Tesco's or other major

multinational corporations.

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But are you saying it's not possible

to decide whether there is equal

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work to match equal pay?

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It's clearly much easier to work

out, if you've got the same job,

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and you've got a woman and a man,

that's very easy.

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If you are trying to value

a warehouse job compared to someone

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working on the shop floor

the checkout, that

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actually is much harder.

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How do you value what it's

worth to the business?

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Everybody is worth

something to the business.

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But that is much harder.

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Emily Thornberry?

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I think the time and time again

when you look at these jobs,

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the ones that are low paid

are always the women's jobs.

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That's how it is.

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And it drives me crazy, you know.

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Barbara Castle introduced

the Equal Pay Act in 1970.

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I bet she'd be turning

in her grave to see that it's

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still going on and that women

are still systematically

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paid less than men.

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The women who are working

on the checkout Tesco's

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are working just as long hours.

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They're just as important to Tesco's

as those who work in the warehouse.

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It's just that they're the blokes.

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And the ones that are paid less,

yet again, are the women.

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And you know many of the jobs that

are largely women's jobs

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are the most valuable.

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So looking after your mum,

give it to social care workers

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and they are usually women.

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And guess what?

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We pay them as little amount

of money as we possibly

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can within the law.

Or our precious four-year-olds.

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They are looked after again largely

by women and largely

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paid the least amount.

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I do not believe...

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What about Tesco, which

the question was about?

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I'm just saying that it's

a coincidence, isn't it,

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it's more than a coincidence that

it's the blokes in the warehouse

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getting paid more than the women

in the checkout and it is

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because certain things

are seen as women's work.

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And therefore, almost by definition,

they're not seen as valuable.

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And yet many of the bits of work,

many of the work that women do

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are actually really valuable.

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Looking after a four-year-old,

why is that less valuable

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than being a banker,

or anything else?

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This is the way that our

society is structured.

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Sorry, are you arguing for equal pay

for bankers and mothers

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of four-year-old children?

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I'm not following your argument.

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There are largely 12 jobs,

different workforces

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in which women go into.

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They're very similar to the sort

of work that women do at home.

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And time and time again

it is undervalued.

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Whether it is secretarial work,

nursing, caring, teaching.

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All of these things

tend to be women's work

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and they tend to be overpaid.

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We have to think about that.

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You sir, up there?

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The man with the spectacles.

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Having worked in one

of the top supermarket chains,

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I've seen both the shop floor type

of work and the warehouse

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type of work.

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I can say for a fact,

working on the shop floor

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you are speaking to the customers.

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In the warehouse it is noisy,

it is loud, it is cold.

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It is hard, hard graft.

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So I think trying to compare shop

floor work with warehouse work,

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I think it's not the same.

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I'm not saying it's the same.

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I'm not saying it's the same.

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It's different work

but it's just as valuable.

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The woman there in the centre?

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OK, I've got your point.

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You, madam?

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I can see what Emily is saying,

but you have got two jobs

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in Tesco's, so it should be two

separate job scales.

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My take on the equality pay is more

based on what has happened

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recently at the BBC.

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Why did the men feel that the only

way they could step up

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for their women's colleagues

was to take a pay cut?

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Why did they not actually

challenge their bosses to bring

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the women's pay in line

with theirs for the same job role?

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It's two different job roles

at Tesco's, it's not at the BBC.

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Go on then.

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Terry Christian?

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I was going to say it's a lot

trickier at Tesco's -

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and it's one for lawyers -

than it is at the BBC.

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If you think about John Humphrys,

God bless him, harrumphing about art

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and new technology while reading

the editorial from the Daily Mail,

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then you've got to wonder

is he really worth four times

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what a female broadcaster does

when she is doing exactly

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the same job as him?

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It is one for the lawyers at Tesco.

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Even when women and men do any good

job there is still a gender pay gap.

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Iceland made it illegal to pay a man

more than a woman. Does the UK need

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to follow that example?

Claire

Perry?

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Look, it's 100 years

since some women got the vote.

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And I still find it incredible

that there are jobs out there,

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including at the BBC,

where women are systematically paid

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less for doing exactly

the same job as a man.

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And it's really good the gender pay

gap is at its lowest level.

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We've brought forward

lots of proposals, so companies have

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to disclose what they are paying,

so does the public sector,

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so does government.

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I think this is a complicated case,

as the gentleman said,

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because there is nothing to stop

women taking on those jobs.

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But we have seen time and time

again, we had the big cases in local

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government and few years ago

where women had to fight

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through the courts to get equal

pay for the same jobs.

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It's got to stop.

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We have half the workforce

now as women.

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We know we are going to be wanting

to work for longer and we have

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to make sure that we are giving

women exactly the same

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pay and rights as we,

as some of us got with the vote

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100 years ago.

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Certainly in supermarkets as well,

the women are not unionised.

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Now maybe if they were in a trade

union, they could collectively

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bargain and they wouldn't get that.

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And one of the problems,

my mum used to always say this,

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one of the reasons women are often

paid less than men is they seemed

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very reluctant to join

trade unions in the past.

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And even now, women are often,

in jobs, decent jobs,

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will often do unpaid overtime

because they may be a bit more

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conscientious than the blokes.

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But they shouldn't be doing it

really because they are driving

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their own wages down

and everybody else's.

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Let me go back to Katie Woolsey,

who asked the question.

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What is your view?

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I agree with the man over there.

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I think that if people,

if women want to go and work

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in the warehouse, go and apply

for the job.

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Why should they get paid more?

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I wouldn't mind sitting on my behind

all day scanning stuff

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and chatting to people.

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I know about working in a warehouse

- because I actually

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do work in a warehouse,

by the way I run my own business

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and I have a warehouse,

and I was there today.

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It was freezing cold.

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It is dirty and it is dusty.

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I'd like to see the women

apply for those jobs

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if they want to be paid the same

as the men.

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Rachel Sylvester?

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APPLAUSE.

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I think there is still a huge issue.

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There is an 18% gap on average

between what men and women earn,

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and there are all kinds

of reasons for that.

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For the same jobs.

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Not for the same jobs.

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But the problem with this is it

about what society values.

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So society values less the caring

roles, whether it is being a carer,

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a cleaner, a dinner lady,

compared to what is seen

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as the strength and muscular roles.

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And I think that's a big problem.

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You can't get around that.

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That is about social values as much

as about employment law.

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I will come to you.

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What's particularly disappointing,

we are one of the worst

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in Europe at this.

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It's always only Germany

that is worse than us.

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I think one of the ways,

the government has to be much more

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ambitious with its targets.

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I think we need many more

great women in senior

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roles in corporations,

and then it's much

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less likely to happen.

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So that really has

to be an objective.

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Emily?

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I was just going to say,

we need a new Equal Pay Act.

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We need an updated Equal Pay Act

that really addresses this issue.

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And I think one of the other

issues that we need to put

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into the melting spot,

if we are talking about the subject

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more generally, is when women start

working part time after they've had

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kids or when they have

caring responsibilities

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for elderly relatives.

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And then they are vulnerable.

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Then they are more likely to take

more lower paid jobs.

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And they don't apply

for a promotion because there

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are so grateful to be able to work

whether part-time are flexibly.

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And we have to start

thinking about that as well,

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because we are losing a very large

part of the workforce and we are not

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valuing them properly.

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What do you say to Katie Woolsey's

point though about warehouse

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and working indoors?

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That they are not equal?

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I'm not saying they are the same

job, they are different jobs.

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But for Tesco's to have people

working on the cashpoints and to be

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talking to customers and to be

the face of Tesco's is a very

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important job as well.

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It ought to be valued

in the same way, in my view,

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as people working in the warehouse.

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Yes of course it's a different job.

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But why is it that we are valuing

blokes' jobs more than we are

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valuing women's jobs?

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But nobody stopping the women

from applying for those jobs.

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That is what I'm saying.

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Nobody is stopping a woman

from going to work

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on a construction site.

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APPLAUSE.

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The truth is the women don't

want to do them dirty jobs.

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They really don't want to do them.

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And if there were more men,

for example, doing childcare,

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or caring for the elderly,

I bet those salaries would go up.

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I bet they would.

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I'm sorry, but what about people

who can't physically

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work in warehouses?

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Why should they settle

for a lower wage?

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It is an equal job,

they are working the same hours,

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people that have disabilities

and so forth cannot

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apply for that job.

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Why is that seen as a dirty job

when things like nursing,

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looking after people in all sorts

of conditions, they are working

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all sorts of hours and they don't

have the same equal pay and the same

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sort of recognition amongst society?

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All right.

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And the woman at

the very back there.

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Can I just say, I worked

for Asda for two years,

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just about eight months ago.

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And I'm sorry, but what the lady

over there about the warehouse,

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it's nothing but insulting coming

from one woman to another woman.

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APPLAUSE.

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The people in Asda...

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I'm not quite sure how Tesco works.

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I worked in Asda, I worked

on the shop floor lugging things

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around, pulling things.

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I worked with customers.

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I was a customer...

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I was - I went on checkouts,

in emergencies.

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I also worked in the warehouse.

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I pulled orders.

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If need be, we split orders down.

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Were you on equal pay to the men?

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We were on equal pay

but not to the people

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in the central warehouses,

which I think is what

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is being discussed.

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Right, OK.

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But that's the case.

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Those people had an easier job.

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They just literally

loaded everything on.

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It was when it got to the stars

that we had the hard work.

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They should be paid

less, you are saying?

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They should be paid

the same as us, not more.

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And the man up there

and then we must move on.

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The man at the very back

with his spectacles on,

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on the right there.

Yes?

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When people went for a job

they applied, they were interviewed,

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they knew what the job

was about and they knew

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what the pay was.

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So you are at liberty

not to accept it.

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Where is the problem?

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APPLAUSE.

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I think we'd better go on.

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We've raised a lot

of questions there.

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Just before we go on, where question

Time is going to be next.

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Yeovil next week.

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And Uttoxeter the week after that.

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On the screen are the details of how

to apply, and I will, as always,

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give them at the end if you don't

have a chance to make

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a note of them now.

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Right, let's have a question

from Natasha Telford, please.

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Is it fair that local authorities

have to take the blame for having

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to increase council tax?

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Is it fair that local authorities

have to take the blame for having

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to increase council tax?

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We heard that council tax,

on average, is going up in almost

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every council in England -

Scotland is different, of course -

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by 6%, or just under the 6% limit

that they have to go to.

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Is it fair that councils

should have to do this,

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because they are not getting

money from government?

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Claire Perry.

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I think one of the things

I find is that people,

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the closer they see money

being spent to them,

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the more they feel they are involved

in those decisions.

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One of the terrible things a few

years ago when I first came

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into politics, only 30% of people

thought they had any

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influence over the way any

of the money was spent locally.

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So, actually, we know the incredible

role that councils play in providing

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social care services,

children's services,

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picking up the rubbish,

putting in the recycling

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bins, or not.

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I think the more that money

is spent closer to us,

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the more we feel it's delivering

value, or we have a

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chance to change it.

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We all know we're going

to have to change the way

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we fund social care.

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I know in Wiltshire,

where the council taxes

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are going up, people

feel it is reasonable.

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In general, people are happier now

with public services than they have

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been in many a year.

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Hang on, hang on...

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They are!

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People are happier...

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Well, people say they are happier

with the public services

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than they have been in a long time.

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The point of the question,

why have you deliberately cut money

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from taxpayers to the councils

by 40% since 2010, and put

0:15:050:15:08

all of that on the councils?

0:15:080:15:09

That was the point of the question.

0:15:090:15:15

I was out today with your fantastic

combined local authority...

0:15:150:15:17

Yeah, are you going to

answer that question?

0:15:170:15:20

Who are working collectively

on the Teesside SSI site,

0:15:200:15:22

which is going to be absolutely

amazing.

0:15:220:15:25

And there is a huge

devolution deal behind that.

0:15:250:15:27

Almost half a billion

over the next 30 years.

0:15:270:15:30

I think that money, coming out

to local government,

0:15:300:15:32

being spent locally,

is the right thing to do.

0:15:320:15:36

But, hang on, the question Natasha

asked, is it fair local authorities

0:15:360:15:39

have to take the blame.

0:15:390:15:40

You know perfectly well

what the issue is.

0:15:400:15:42

Local councils have

lost 40% of their money

0:15:420:15:44

from central government.

0:15:440:15:45

And they are lumbered with having

to raise it from house owners.

0:15:450:15:48

There are a whole series

of settlements, we wanted to make

0:15:490:15:52

sure that the business rates,

which are raised locally,

0:15:520:15:54

and historically went whistling

back to Westminster,

0:15:540:15:56

that they are actually

kept and spent locally.

0:15:560:15:58

To me, this is about changing

the funding base so that more money

0:15:580:16:01

is raised locally and spent locally.

0:16:010:16:03

Do you think it is fair, Rachel?

0:16:030:16:05

No, I think the Government

is passing the buck to local

0:16:050:16:07

councils, particularly

on social care.

0:16:070:16:09

APPLAUSE.

0:16:090:16:15

There has been something

like £6 billion cut from the social

0:16:150:16:19

care budgets alone.

0:16:190:16:20

That is the reason for our NHS

crisis now this winter.

0:16:200:16:25

There are something like one in ten

beds in the NHS are now filled

0:16:250:16:28

with people who are well to go home,

but can't do that,

0:16:280:16:31

because there is nowhere to look

after them in the community.

0:16:310:16:34

Care homes are closing, domiciliary

care services can't cope.

0:16:340:16:38

Councils have had to cut the amount

of money they are paying to care

0:16:380:16:42

homes, so the whole system

is absolutely creaking.

0:16:420:16:44

I think there is a failure

of leadership from Theresa May

0:16:440:16:46

and the Government not to take

a national decision

0:16:460:16:49

about a national crisis.

0:16:490:16:51

So you think taxes should go up

to pay for these things?

0:16:510:16:55

I think there should be some kind

of hypothecated health

0:16:550:16:57

and social care tax.

0:16:570:16:58

This isn't a situation...

0:16:580:16:59

Hypothecated being money

that is raised just for the NHS?

0:16:590:17:02

Not just for the NHS,

but also for social care.

0:17:020:17:05

This isn't something that's to do

with NHS efficiencies.

0:17:050:17:11

Why do you think they won't do this?

0:17:110:17:13

It's to do with the

ageing population.

0:17:130:17:14

Why won't the Government

act on this?

0:17:140:17:16

Well, I think Jeremy Hunt

would quite like to do it, actually.

0:17:160:17:19

There's cross-party support.

0:17:190:17:20

I've talked to Labour MPs, Tory MPs

and Liberal Democrat MPs, all think

0:17:200:17:23

this is a really good idea.

0:17:230:17:24

All acknowledge there

is a huge crisis.

0:17:240:17:26

All acknowledge that, actually,

you can't put this on to local

0:17:260:17:29

councils alone any more,

as Natasha said.

0:17:290:17:30

And I think it's time now

for the Government to act.

0:17:300:17:33

A lot of it goes back to Thatcher,

because she was the first one,

0:17:330:17:39

funnily enough, to start bringing

the money back in from

0:17:390:17:42

the local councils and then

rate-capping those councils.

0:17:420:17:44

Now, the Tories have always been

the party of indirect taxation.

0:17:440:17:47

So they would always tax

in a way that you couldn't

0:17:470:17:49

blame them directly.

0:17:490:17:51

You know, back in the old days,

when we had nationalised

0:17:510:17:54

gas and electricity,

and water, and stuff like that,

0:17:540:17:57

if your water or your gas bill went

up, you'd blame the Government.

0:17:570:18:04

Or you'd blame your

local council directly.

0:18:040:18:06

Once you privatise it,

you take that away.

0:18:060:18:08

And so it's like, ooh,

it's nothing to do with us.

0:18:080:18:10

And this is the problem.

0:18:100:18:11

Now, with libraries shutting down,

everywhere is creaking

0:18:110:18:13

because the whole country

is in a mess.

0:18:130:18:15

And to use...

0:18:150:18:16

APPLAUSE.

0:18:160:18:20

To use a quite vacuous statement,

which is used a lot nowadays,

0:18:200:18:24

I think, what do they say,

no deal is better than a bad deal?

0:18:240:18:29

I'd say no leader is

better than a bad leader.

0:18:290:18:32

What are you talking about?

0:18:320:18:34

At the moment we have no

leadership in this country.

0:18:340:18:36

Honestly!

0:18:360:18:37

We've got no government.

0:18:370:18:40

Richard Tice?

0:18:400:18:41

Let's stick to the question.

0:18:410:18:42

I've just stuck to the question.

0:18:420:18:45

We are taxpayers, we all want our

taxes to be spent well,

0:18:450:18:48

whether it is at central government

or local authority.

0:18:480:18:51

Coming back to Natasha's question,

clearly, local authorities can't

0:18:510:18:54

absolve themselves to spending

that money wisely.

0:18:540:18:56

We want it to be spent well,

efficiently and smartly.

0:18:560:19:02

So, there is, of course,

there is always pressure on budgets.

0:19:020:19:04

There always will be.

0:19:040:19:05

But they can't absolve

themselves of that blame.

0:19:050:19:07

They've got responsibilities

at the local level, they need

0:19:070:19:09

to spend the money well.

0:19:090:19:10

When it comes to caring

for people, that's expensive.

0:19:100:19:13

And that's got to be

taken into account.

0:19:130:19:15

So local budgets...

0:19:150:19:18

Of course, it's going up,

and it's all coming down the NHS.

0:19:180:19:21

I'll come to Emily

Thornberry in a moment.

0:19:210:19:23

I'll go to the man

there in spectacles.

0:19:230:19:28

Let's hear from one or two people

who have to foot these bill.

0:19:280:19:31

Yes?

0:19:310:19:32

The woman there, yes?

0:19:320:19:33

You.

0:19:330:19:34

In addition to adult social care,

there is also a massive problem

0:19:340:19:37

in children's social care

that we don't talk

0:19:370:19:39

about nearly enough.

0:19:390:19:40

The most vulnerable

children in our society.

0:19:400:19:43

The Local Government Association

says that by 2020 I believe

0:19:430:19:45

there is going to be a £2 billion

national deficit in this area.

0:19:450:19:49

And we are seeing such an increase

in demand in the north-east

0:19:490:19:51

because children and young people

are being brought into care through

0:19:510:19:54

neglect in this age of austerity.

0:19:540:19:55

And is it your view that...

0:19:550:19:58

APPLAUSE

0:19:580:20:00

As Terry was saying,

is it your view this as deliberate

0:20:000:20:03

action by the Government to put

the burden local councils?

0:20:030:20:06

I do.

0:20:090:20:10

And I think it's particularly

targeted at Labour authorities

0:20:100:20:13

in the north-east.

0:20:130:20:14

We've had the worst cuts,

and we are the ones that

0:20:140:20:16

have the biggest...

0:20:160:20:18

We are the ones that

have the biggest...

0:20:180:20:20

Not quite burdens, but we have a lot

more demand in terms of social care.

0:20:200:20:24

And fewer people who can

foot their own bills.

0:20:240:20:26

I'll give Claire a chance

to answer in a moment.

0:20:260:20:28

Emily Thornberry?

0:20:280:20:29

Do you want me to speak?

0:20:290:20:31

Yes.

0:20:310:20:32

If you want to speak!

0:20:320:20:33

I would love to speak.

0:20:330:20:34

I have a lot to say.

0:20:340:20:36

I've never known you

not want to speak.

0:20:360:20:38

I have a lot to say on this.

0:20:380:20:40

You're right.

0:20:400:20:41

Stick to the question that was put.

0:20:430:20:50

In the end, local authorities'

major income comes

0:20:500:20:51

from central government.

0:20:510:20:53

That's the truth.

0:20:530:20:54

To put up council tax will never

make up for the amount

0:20:540:20:56

that councils are losing

centrally from government.

0:20:560:20:58

On average, it is 40% cuts,

but you're absolutely right,

0:20:580:21:01

guess what, the poorest areas

are the ones that are

0:21:010:21:03

getting the biggest cuts.

0:21:030:21:06

So, you are not alone

in the north east.

0:21:100:21:12

Deprived inner-city boroughs

like mine, we have got

0:21:120:21:14

60% cuts in my area,

where I have some of the worst child

0:21:140:21:17

poverty in the country.

0:21:170:21:18

So, what they are doing

as they are cutting back

0:21:180:21:20

the funds centrally.

0:21:200:21:21

Then what they do is

they decentralise the blame.

0:21:210:21:23

So, they cut the money

from central government

0:21:230:21:25

and then local people say,

what has happened

0:21:250:21:27

to our bin service?

0:21:270:21:28

Why are our streets so dirty?

0:21:280:21:30

What is going on?

0:21:300:21:31

And they blame the councillors.

0:21:310:21:32

But, actually, it's central

government and it is

0:21:320:21:34

being done deliberately.

0:21:340:21:35

And the chickens are

coming home to roost.

0:21:350:21:37

That is what's happening.

0:21:370:21:39

And we know that the people

who really suffer are those

0:21:390:21:42

who are the most vulnerable,

because councils absolutely have

0:21:420:21:44

to look after children

who are on the verge

0:21:440:21:46

of going into care.

0:21:460:21:47

And they don't have enough money.

0:21:470:21:49

And councils have been

telling this government,

0:21:490:21:51

pleading with this government,

councils of every stripe,

0:21:510:21:54

and they just have cloth ears

on this and will not listen.

0:21:540:21:56

And as for social care...

0:21:560:21:59

It's a pretty severe indictment,

Claire Perry, what do you say?

0:22:010:22:04

I admire her passion,

but she is just wrong.

0:22:040:22:07

And here's why.

0:22:070:22:13

We talk about wanting to fund

better our NHS, our social care,

0:22:130:22:15

our vulnerable children services.

0:22:150:22:16

And there are two ways, as you know,

madam, because it sounds

0:22:160:22:19

like you are a local government

expert, to fund this.

0:22:190:22:22

We can either increase borrowing

or we can put up taxes,

0:22:220:22:24

or we can cut costs.

0:22:240:22:26

And I think councils have cut costs

very effectively across the country

0:22:260:22:28

over the last years.

0:22:280:22:29

People have done an amazing job,

we found lots of efficiencies.

0:22:290:22:32

Yeah, tell Northampton!

0:22:320:22:33

Do we put up taxes...

0:22:330:22:34

Yes, round of applause

for you, I think?

0:22:340:22:38

That's very patronising.

0:22:380:22:39

Do we put up taxes nationally,

and put it all into the mix?

0:22:390:22:43

An interesting question,

do you ringfence it,

0:22:430:22:46

which of course is what national

insurance was originally

0:22:460:22:47

supposed to be?

0:22:470:22:48

Or do you raise taxes locally

where people can see

0:22:480:22:51

what they are being spent on?

0:22:510:22:52

And when I talk to my constituents,

delivering better social care is not

0:22:520:22:55

some amorphous pot coming out

of central government,

0:22:550:22:57

it is joining up the GP surgeries,

so that the frail elderly get home

0:22:570:23:01

visits, they get kept

out of hospital.

0:23:010:23:02

It is working with

the local hospital.

0:23:020:23:04

I think so much of the solution

for social care is better

0:23:040:23:07

integration of health

and social care...

0:23:070:23:08

And money, Claire!

0:23:080:23:10

You can't keep doing it on no money!

0:23:100:23:12

And that's why...

0:23:120:23:16

Claire, just answer this question,

isn't it true, though, you say

0:23:160:23:18

the local authorities should...

0:23:180:23:21

It's better if they get the money

locally, you stop them raising

0:23:210:23:25

the money they get by limiting

it at 6%.

0:23:250:23:31

You don't let them raise the money

that they might need to do this.

0:23:310:23:35

Why do you do that?

0:23:350:23:36

When there is an increase and people

say I would be happy to pay a bit

0:23:360:23:40

more for the NHS and for social

care, and this is a contribution

0:23:400:23:43

that we are making locally,

what we know from Emily's team,

0:23:430:23:45

and I don't like to get partisan,

but sometimes the "cloth

0:23:450:23:48

ears" is a little nasty,

one of Emily's front bench spokesmen

0:23:480:23:53

had to resign after exposing

the plan to jack up council taxes,

0:23:530:23:56

to jack up national income tax,

and just spend more on everything.

0:23:560:23:59

We have to make these choices.

0:23:590:24:00

I think putting money into social

care and vulnerable children

0:24:000:24:02

is a really good justification

for raising taxes.

0:24:020:24:07

It's a cynical exercise

in blame pushing.

0:24:070:24:09

You know it is.

0:24:090:24:12

You don't believe a word

of what you are saying.

0:24:120:24:14

APPLAUSE.

0:24:140:24:21

OK, whether she believes

what she is saying or not,

0:24:210:24:24

let's go to members of our audience

and just hear what they

0:24:240:24:27

think of what she said.

0:24:270:24:28

The woman in the...

0:24:280:24:29

One, two, three...

0:24:290:24:30

Yes, you, in the grey?

0:24:300:24:31

So, you talk about integration

being the solution.

0:24:310:24:33

Privatisation of the NHS is such

a cause of disintegration

0:24:330:24:35

of services, services can't work

with one another.

0:24:350:24:37

It's becoming so much...

0:24:370:24:41

It's much more poorly

executed than it ever was.

0:24:410:24:43

That's just not true, Madam.

0:24:430:24:44

I'm really sorry

to come back on this.

0:24:440:24:47

So, when we talk about

privatisation, we think

0:24:470:24:50

about somehow charging people

to visit local hospitals.

0:24:500:24:52

For decades...

0:24:520:24:54

No we don't!

0:24:540:24:57

When we talk about privatisation,

we think about public money...

0:24:570:25:01

One at a time.

0:25:010:25:03

Don't try and shout down on me.

0:25:030:25:05

People hate to see

politicians doing that.

0:25:050:25:06

You're talking rubbish.

0:25:060:25:07

In this area, in my area...

0:25:070:25:09

APPLAUSE.

0:25:090:25:16

We can exchange insults or we can

talk about the facts.

0:25:160:25:18

The facts are in my constituency

and in this one, there

0:25:180:25:21

are independent providers

of services, providing

0:25:210:25:22

services free for the NHS.

0:25:220:25:26

Things run by Care International,

Macmillan Nurses as an independent

0:25:260:25:32

provider, that started under Tony

Blair.

0:25:320:25:34

It's continued because, actually,

we shouldn't have ideology

0:25:340:25:36

in the Health Service.

0:25:360:25:37

We should protect it and make it

free at the point of demand

0:25:370:25:40

for everybody who needs it.

0:25:400:25:41

The question...

0:25:410:25:42

Stop the ideology and

focus on the facts.

0:25:420:25:44

Claire, the question

is not about that.

0:25:440:25:47

It's about local authorities,

about the increase in rates.

0:25:470:25:49

I was responding to the point

about privatisation.

0:25:490:25:51

The man there, in the third row?

0:25:510:25:52

Yes, how about instead of cutting

budgets and forcing local councils

0:25:520:25:56

all over the country

to put their taxes up,

0:25:560:26:03

how about you cut the foreign aid

budget and then that money could go

0:26:030:26:07

towards other things that

are needed in this country?

0:26:070:26:09

I don't agree.

0:26:090:26:10

Don't sit there shaking your head!

0:26:100:26:14

It is sensible solution.

0:26:140:26:17

Let's hear from the man

at the back, there.

0:26:190:26:22

I think we just need to look at,

rather than what is coming

0:26:220:26:26

in, what is going out.

0:26:260:26:27

When you look at this

local authority here,

0:26:270:26:29

generally the net spend has been

pretty consistent during this

0:26:290:26:32

period of austerity.

0:26:320:26:36

If you look at it also,

it's the fact that councils

0:26:360:26:38

have an obligation to carry out

or provide a statutory service.

0:26:380:26:42

This council here, again,

spends on non-statutory services,

0:26:420:26:44

and that's fine, as long

as they are breaking even.

0:26:440:26:51

But when it's costing a lot, we need

to look at what we are actually

0:26:510:26:55

spending our money on,

not what is coming in.

0:26:550:26:57

Are you saying that

they are spending money

0:26:570:26:59

they didn't need to spend?

0:26:590:27:00

They are spending money

on non-statutory services,

0:27:000:27:02

which are making a loss.

0:27:020:27:03

Like what?

0:27:030:27:04

The Dolphin Centre.

0:27:040:27:05

But it's great!

0:27:050:27:06

It would be peanuts.

0:27:060:27:07

Where we are sitting?

0:27:070:27:08

Yes.

0:27:080:27:09

Absolutely peanuts.

0:27:090:27:12

Well, no, this is

actually Central Hall.

0:27:120:27:14

The Dolphin Centre is next door.

0:27:140:27:15

But the swimming pool, and all that,

where we have been all day?

0:27:150:27:18

Not swimming, but getting

ready for this programme.

0:27:180:27:20

You think that shouldn't be

funded by the council?

0:27:200:27:22

Also, coming back to what is coming

in, the Labour government, over

0:27:220:27:25

the period of the Labour Government,

council tax increased by 100%.

0:27:250:27:28

Now, during this period

of austerity, council tax

0:27:280:27:30

is generally only increased

by about 15%.

0:27:300:27:32

So, you've got a significant

imbalance there.

0:27:320:27:36

Who would you like to have pay

for the swimming pool?

0:27:360:27:38

I think it should be private.

0:27:380:27:40

Somebody basically makes a profit.

0:27:400:27:42

OK.

0:27:420:27:44

And you, in the second row?

0:27:440:27:48

I work in health care,

in a senior role.

0:27:480:27:52

There is a reality about we do need

to do more, we do need

0:27:520:27:55

to integrate services,

we are working very closely

0:27:550:27:58

with our GP, primary care service,

we are doing everything

0:27:580:28:00

we can in that.

0:28:000:28:03

But the absolute reality

is there isn't enough

0:28:030:28:05

funding to go around.

0:28:050:28:06

And non-statutory services

include services for very

0:28:060:28:08

old, very frail people.

0:28:080:28:14

How would you feel if your very old,

very frail elderly mum

0:28:140:28:17

was actually in need and wasn't able

to access the services

0:28:170:28:20

that were required?

0:28:200:28:22

And then, despite all

of the workaround integration,

0:28:220:28:25

because they don't get the care

that they need, they end up

0:28:250:28:28

in hospital and stuck there?

0:28:280:28:31

APPLAUSE.

0:28:310:28:32

The man there?

0:28:320:28:33

The woman, there, sorry.

0:28:330:28:37

The fact is that the National Audit

Office have produced a report to say

0:28:370:28:41

that private finance,

supporting strategy

0:28:410:28:44

and non-statutory services,

is an inefficient way to support

0:28:440:28:46

what we really need in this country.

0:28:460:28:54

So, I don't agree with that

gentleman up there that said

0:28:540:28:56

we should privatise places such

as this Dolphin Centre.

0:28:560:28:59

I think it's a totally

ridiculous statement.

0:28:590:29:00

Rachel?

0:29:000:29:01

I just wanted to go back

to the original question

0:29:010:29:04

and question what Claire was saying.

0:29:040:29:05

Actually, councils -

it is the least fair way

0:29:050:29:07

of raising money for social care.

0:29:070:29:11

The richest councils by definition

can raise the most from council tax.

0:29:110:29:17

And it's the poorest councils, it's

the poorest councils that have to

0:29:170:29:20

pay the most for social care because

they have the fewest people who can

0:29:200:29:23

afford to pay for their own care.

0:29:230:29:25

So it's the imbalance.

0:29:250:29:26

That's why it has to

be a national system.

0:29:260:29:28

Do you want to come in on this?

0:29:280:29:30

The point is it is

all about choices.

0:29:300:29:32

And the gentleman raised

the question of the

0:29:320:29:34

foreign aid budget.

0:29:340:29:35

We know we have a huge

crisis in social care.

0:29:350:29:38

And as a nation we have

to make that choice

0:29:380:29:40

because money doesn't grow on trees.

0:29:400:29:42

We've got to make public services

well funded but they've got to be

0:29:420:29:45

efficiently run.

0:29:450:29:46

The government has to

have the courage to make

0:29:460:29:48

that choice.

0:29:480:29:49

You can't just print money.

0:29:490:29:50

You've got no choice

if you need social care.

0:29:500:29:53

Correct.

0:29:530:29:54

If you are homeless,

you've got no choice.

0:29:540:29:57

If you are terminally

ill, and you need

0:29:570:29:59

a carer, you've got no choice.

0:29:590:30:00

If you are disabled,

you have no choice.

0:30:000:30:04

So all of this nonsense about you've

got a choice, of course

0:30:040:30:07

you haven't.

Get into the real world.

0:30:070:30:09

All right.

0:30:090:30:10

The government has

got to make a choice.

0:30:100:30:12

Where does it invest the money?

0:30:120:30:14

What you save in the short

term ends up costing you

0:30:140:30:17

more in the long-term.

0:30:170:30:21

We've got many more questions

that the audience in Darlington

0:30:210:30:24

wants to ask, so I'm

going to move on.

0:30:240:30:26

I've got two or three

more I'd like to

0:30:260:30:29

get through.

0:30:290:30:30

Let's have this one

from Helene Lawson, please.

0:30:300:30:32

Should Jon Venables continue to have

anonymity at the taxpayers' expense?

0:30:320:30:39

Jon Venables, who was this

week found guilty of

0:30:390:30:42

possessing child abuse

images for the second time,

0:30:420:30:44

jailed for three years.

0:30:440:30:47

There was a question raised

about whether he was

0:30:470:30:49

entitled to be given anonymity.

0:30:490:30:51

Rachel Sylvester, what do you think?

0:30:510:30:52

This is just an awful,

sickening case.

0:30:520:30:56

But I worry about removing anonymity

from him, because I think

0:30:560:31:01

there could be a real kind of mob

mentality about him.

0:31:010:31:04

And I'm not sure it would

actually help society

0:31:040:31:07

in the end or protect anyone.

0:31:070:31:09

And I think the criminal

justice system,

0:31:090:31:12

however evil people are, or vile,

the criminal has to be fair and

0:31:120:31:15

evenhanded and dispassionate.

0:31:150:31:20

-- the criminal justice system.

0:31:200:31:22

And there are people

who aren't going to

0:31:220:31:25

agree with that.

0:31:250:31:26

I totally understand why

James Bulger's family

0:31:260:31:28

feel very passionately about this.

0:31:280:31:29

But I think you can't

have a criminal justice system that

0:31:290:31:32

really made for victims.

0:31:320:31:33

It has to be at a higher level.

0:31:330:31:36

And it has to be evenhanded

and fair, rather than

0:31:360:31:41

vindictive or revengeful.

0:31:410:31:43

Do you agree with that?

0:31:430:31:44

Yes, I do.

0:31:440:31:45

You do agree with that?

0:31:450:31:47

Terry Christian?

0:31:470:31:49

Again, I agree really

with what Rachel said.

0:31:490:31:52

I mean, the whole thing is very sad

and sickening especially when you

0:31:520:31:55

think they were so young

when they committed

0:31:550:31:57

that atrocious crime.

0:31:570:31:59

But it's like, where do we go?

0:31:590:32:03

I think it was in 1842

when we decided we'd

0:32:030:32:06

no longer hang kids under the age

of seven, or something like that.

0:32:060:32:10

How much punishment

can you give them?

0:32:100:32:12

You've got to wonder

what sort of upbringing

0:32:120:32:14

out the way they did.

0:32:140:32:15

It's scary.

0:32:150:32:19

Clearly you have to treat

people equally and fairly.

0:32:190:32:21

You can't make special,

separate cases for people just

0:32:210:32:24

because you think it's

ever more desperate.

0:32:240:32:27

You know, we've got such a great

legal system, you have to

0:32:270:32:30

treat people fairly

and you can't differentiate.

0:32:300:32:31

What, his anonymity,

which was imposed after the

0:32:310:32:33

case because he was a child

at the time, should remain

0:32:330:32:38

all his life?

0:32:380:32:43

It should just be applied

the same for everybody,

0:32:430:32:45

whoever you are.

0:32:450:32:46

How do you you are?

0:32:460:32:47

Well, I mean, we can't make

different rules for different

0:32:470:32:49

individuals going

through the system.

0:32:490:32:51

The woman at the back,

what do you think?

0:32:510:32:53

What I would say is I think

anonymity is really

0:32:530:32:55

important.

0:32:550:32:56

Social media - when Shannon

Matthews' mother came out

0:32:560:32:59

all over the papers,

all of Facebook, social

0:32:590:33:02

media, of her face.

0:33:020:33:05

I just think it would promote

vigilantes groups, going around

0:33:050:33:08

following them, it could encourage

violent attacks and things

0:33:080:33:11

like that.

0:33:110:33:12

What he did was disgusting

and you can't -

0:33:120:33:18

but now continually doing

disgusting things.

0:33:180:33:19

But if you remove the anonymity

you are just going to

0:33:190:33:22

encourage vigilantes attacks.

0:33:220:33:23

Does anybody disagree

with the points

0:33:230:33:24

that are being made?

0:33:240:33:25

Who wants to speak?

0:33:250:33:26

You do?

0:33:260:33:30

This guy has done a terrible

crime when he was young.

0:33:300:33:32

And he paid for it.

0:33:320:33:35

He came out and he did

the same thing again.

0:33:350:33:37

Not quite.

0:33:370:33:42

Well, he did bad things

on the Internet.

0:33:420:33:47

So how do we protect ourselves

from this individual?

0:33:470:33:50

We are not putting him

in prison long enough.

0:33:500:33:56

People don't know where he is.

0:33:560:34:00

He could be doing it again.

0:34:000:34:02

I don't think we are

safe without knowing

0:34:020:34:04

exactly where he is.

0:34:040:34:05

Emily Thornberry?

0:34:050:34:13

I agree with you to a certain extent

when you talk about us

0:34:140:34:17

having a great legal system.

0:34:170:34:19

But we don't have a great

justice system asa whole.

0:34:190:34:21

And I think there's a lot of work

that we are letting go, and

0:34:210:34:24

a lot of the things that we used

to do better and we're

0:34:240:34:28

not doing well now.

0:34:280:34:29

In order to keep us safe, sir,

we need to not only punish people

0:34:290:34:32

and keep them out of the public

sphere, but we also asked to do some

0:34:320:34:36

work on rehabilitation.

0:34:360:34:37

And we have to have a

decent system that when

0:34:370:34:39

people leave prison,

that there is some attempt,

0:34:390:34:41

a probation service that is there,

that is a safety net,

0:34:410:34:44

and will ensure people are doing

the best they can to get back into

0:34:440:34:47

society and to keep

the right side of law.

0:34:470:34:49

We have done that.

0:34:490:34:50

We have given him

the chance but he has

0:34:500:34:52

blown it again.

0:34:520:34:53

I understand that.

0:34:530:34:54

But there is a real problem

in terms of protecting our

0:34:540:35:00

society, about making sure that

people are rehabilitated.

0:35:000:35:02

If someone commits a crime,

you can't just like everybody

0:35:020:35:05

up forever.

0:35:050:35:06

I'm sorry, let's get this clear.

0:35:060:35:07

This is the second time he has been

arrested and imprisoned

0:35:070:35:10

for these offences.

0:35:100:35:11

What he is saying is,

is that allowed to go on

0:35:110:35:14

all his life?

0:35:140:35:15

That it will never be

revealed who he is?

0:35:150:35:17

That it will be

a condition he will remain

0:35:170:35:19

anonymous?

0:35:190:35:20

I think, as people know,

the crimes he has committed now a

0:35:200:35:23

serious, but nothing is as serious

as the original crime he committed

0:35:230:35:26

as a child.

0:35:260:35:27

And the difficulty is that

if his anonymity is got rid of,

0:35:270:35:31

he will be at risk

of losing his life.

0:35:310:35:33

OK.

0:35:330:35:35

Does anybody else want to disagree

with the points that have

0:35:350:35:38

been made on the panel?

0:35:380:35:41

You at the very back, yes?

0:35:410:35:42

I personally believe,

obviously the initial

0:35:420:35:44

crime was horrendous.

0:35:440:35:46

I still remember watching the news.

0:35:460:35:50

You can imagine somebody that young

actually doing something like that.

0:35:500:35:54

Now you both mentioned we've got

a great justice system.

0:35:540:35:57

How about we set a precedent

and say, right, you

0:35:570:36:05

do it again, you're losing your

anonymity, simple as that.

0:36:070:36:09

Put the ball in his court.

0:36:090:36:11

Let's see if he can

actually be rehabilitated.

0:36:110:36:13

I think those images

are seared in everybody's

0:36:130:36:15

memory, that little lad

going off in Bootle.

0:36:150:36:17

For me, the only positive thing,

if you like, that came out of

0:36:170:36:20

that was that it appeared these

young men, who must of had the most

0:36:200:36:24

unbearable upbringings to do

those sorts of crimes,

0:36:240:36:31

appear to have gone

through the system and it worked.

0:36:310:36:35

They had achieved a level

of competence, they were able

0:36:350:36:37

to function.

0:36:370:36:38

And the only thing I would say

is the system is actually

0:36:380:36:41

working, so he is he is coming out,

they obviously know where

0:36:410:36:44

he is and what he is doing.

0:36:440:36:45

They're finding the fact

that he is consuming

0:36:450:36:48

imagery and is breaching the terms

of his licence

0:36:480:36:50

and going back to jail.

0:36:500:36:51

I'm not suggesting that

isn't a cycle that

0:36:510:36:53

should continue forever.

0:36:530:36:54

But I don't think

revealing his name does

0:36:540:36:58

anything to make the chances of him

doing that any less.

0:36:580:37:00

The bigger problem,

actually Sir, the other

0:37:000:37:02

problem is how easy

it is to access that

0:37:020:37:04

stuff on the Internet.

0:37:040:37:06

And the work that we have done over

the years cross-party to

0:37:060:37:09

try and tighten up this

system so you can't

0:37:090:37:11

of stuff is hugely helpful.

0:37:110:37:19

Where is the fairness for the Bulger

family that are forced to relive

0:37:210:37:25

this every time this happens?

0:37:250:37:26

APPLAUSE.

0:37:260:37:27

So what's your answer to that?

0:37:270:37:29

I don't think we

should be forced to.

0:37:290:37:31

I think there should

be a lot more research

0:37:310:37:35

while they are serving inside,

to find out

0:37:350:37:37

whether they are safe to be

released.

0:37:370:37:41

OK.

Yes, the woman in the middle?

0:37:410:37:46

It was two children

involved in that crime.

0:37:460:37:48

Robert Thompson served his time.

0:37:480:37:51

Robert Thompson came out,

Robert Thompson was given anonymity.

0:37:510:37:54

Nobody knows where he is.

0:37:540:37:55

What he is doing.

0:37:550:37:56

The same with Mary Bell.

0:37:560:37:57

They were given their opportunity.

0:37:570:37:59

They rehabilitated

and they came out.

0:37:590:38:01

This other gentleman hasn't.

0:38:010:38:04

And where do you draw the line

in allowing him to repeated and

0:38:040:38:07

repeated and repeated?

0:38:070:38:09

I totally agree with

the fellow at the back.

0:38:090:38:11

One more chance, you've blown it,

your anonymity is gone.

0:38:110:38:14

Where is the protection my children

or my grandchildren?

0:38:140:38:17

And as that lady says,

where's the justice for the

0:38:170:38:19

Bulger family?

0:38:190:38:21

APPLAUSE.

0:38:210:38:28

Right, we're moving

on to another subject.

0:38:290:38:31

I have just to say to people

watching this problem that

0:38:310:38:33

I asked this audience

whether they wanted

0:38:330:38:35

discussed this week.

0:38:350:38:41

And I have to say, 75% of them said

they didn't want to discussed.

0:38:410:38:45

And yet the biggest pile

of questions we had was on this

0:38:450:38:48

very subject.

0:38:480:38:49

So I don't know where

you are coming from.

0:38:490:38:52

And I hope people at home

will forgive us because this

0:38:520:38:54

story moves on week by week.

0:38:540:38:56

Let's have this one.

0:38:560:38:57

It comes from Stuart Armstrong.

0:38:570:38:58

It's very pertinent to where

we are sitting here in Darlington.

0:38:580:39:03

Would 16% lower economic growth

in the north-east be a price

0:39:030:39:06

worth paying for a hard Brexit?

0:39:060:39:09

So, Richard Tice

wants a hard Brexit.

0:39:090:39:12

Hang on, David.

0:39:120:39:13

I want a clean, proper Brexit.

0:39:130:39:15

Let's be very clear.

0:39:150:39:16

Whatever you want to call it.

0:39:160:39:21

I don't know that a hard

one or a soft one.

0:39:210:39:23

You will explain.

0:39:230:39:28

A report came out this week

saying that growth in the

0:39:280:39:31

north-east would fall

by 16% if there was a hard Brexit.

0:39:310:39:33

Look, the reality

is about this, and of

0:39:330:39:35

economic forecasts, particularly

forecasts for 15 years out, you

0:39:350:39:37

know, garbage in equals garbage out

with these economic models.

0:39:370:39:40

APPLAUSE.

0:39:400:39:44

These models were produced

by the same people who during the

0:39:440:39:48

referendum campaign of the Treasury

under the civil service, they said

0:39:480:39:51

that within a year we would be

in deep recession, we would lose

0:39:510:39:54

500,000 jobs, the tech firms

would leave, the banks would leave.

0:39:540:39:57

What's...

0:39:570:39:58

APPLAUSE.

0:39:580:40:00

What a load of absolute rubbish.

0:40:000:40:04

We've got 400,000 more people

employed in this country.

0:40:040:40:07

We've got record low

levels of unemployment.

0:40:070:40:09

We've got so much to celebrate.

0:40:090:40:12

And the great thing is

the opportunity is just beginning.

0:40:120:40:15

And here locally, here locally

near to Darlington, down

0:40:150:40:18

at Teesport, there is a wonderful

opportunity as long

0:40:180:40:21

as we leave the Customs Union,

because that is crucial.

0:40:210:40:23

We can then have a free port.

0:40:230:40:26

And free ports generate

thousands and thousands of

0:40:260:40:28

manufacturing jobs.

0:40:280:40:30

As your local Richmond

MP recently proved.

0:40:300:40:33

And that is a wonderful opportunity.

0:40:330:40:35

We need to rebalance the economy

towards more money for actual jobs

0:40:350:40:38

in less well-off areas.

0:40:380:40:39

APPLAUSE.

0:40:390:40:46

So you dispute the facts,

but it did lead to a 16% drop

0:40:460:40:49

in the growth in this part

of the country,

0:40:490:40:51

would it be worth it?

0:40:510:40:54

-- if it led to a 16% drop, would it

be worth it?

0:40:540:41:00

That was the question.

0:41:000:41:01

That was the question.

0:41:010:41:02

You are a great believer in leaving.

0:41:020:41:04

It is completely hypothetical.

0:41:040:41:05

We all know...

0:41:050:41:06

These people, they can't even

forecast one year in advance,

0:41:060:41:08

let alone 15.

0:41:080:41:10

To be honest with you,

the minute you say anything is gone

0:41:100:41:13

to be bad, Brexiteers always

say, that's rubbish!

0:41:130:41:17

Look, you've exaggerated how

bad it is going to be.

0:41:170:41:19

The reality is...

0:41:190:41:21

We've been proved right.

0:41:210:41:24

Listen, I saw you in 2015 say,

Brexit, leaving the EU is simple.

0:41:240:41:29

Everything is simple

when you are a bit simple.

0:41:290:41:33

The reality is a 16% drop over

here is gone to cost

0:41:330:41:38

you something ridiculous

like one in six jobs.

0:41:380:41:42

The actual great recession

of the 1930s was a 15% drop.

0:41:420:41:45

AUDIENCE: Rubbish!

0:41:450:41:47

You are saying rubbish.

0:41:470:41:48

Good luck with that one.

0:41:480:41:51

Come and tell me how

you are getting on in a

0:41:510:41:54

few years' time, or 16 months' time.

0:41:540:41:55

Because you seem to be

very, very hopeful.

0:41:550:42:02

I don't see any upside to it.

0:42:020:42:04

So far the pound has tanked by 15%.

0:42:040:42:06

Is that a good sign that

things are getting better?

0:42:060:42:08

We've got the lowest

growth in the EU.

0:42:080:42:10

You come and join the

celebration when we have got

0:42:100:42:12

more manufacturing jobs

in the north-east, we've got

0:42:120:42:14

a free ports, we have

rebalanced the economy.

0:42:140:42:16

Based on what?

0:42:160:42:17

Based on what findings?

0:42:170:42:22

Is that based on the Economist?

0:42:220:42:25

The one who said there

was a minimum wage.

0:42:250:42:27

It's getting boring!

0:42:270:42:28

Boring!

0:42:280:42:29

Boring!

0:42:290:42:30

I can see why people...

0:42:300:42:31

If we are going to have arguments

conducted like this,

0:42:310:42:33

I can see why people get

bored with the argument.

0:42:330:42:36

He needs to give his head a wobble.

0:42:360:42:38

Claire Perry?

0:42:380:42:39

You famously said

that some of your MPs

0:42:390:42:41

were representing...

0:42:410:42:42

No.

I did not.

0:42:420:42:43

What did you not say?

0:42:430:42:44

I do hate the way BBC

likes to do this.

0:42:440:42:46

By the way, these

men shouting at each

0:42:460:42:48

other, it is a bit like Parliament.

0:42:480:42:51

Tell me what you did not say.

0:42:510:42:54

Let's answer the question.

0:42:540:42:55

Can I answer the question?

0:42:550:42:56

Tell me what you didn't say.

0:42:560:42:59

What I said, what I didn't say

was that anyone who voted

0:42:590:43:03

Brexit was in any way

to have their views discounted,

0:43:030:43:06

because we went through the biggest

democratic exercise this

0:43:060:43:08

country has ever seen.

0:43:080:43:11

Emily and I were on one side

of the debate, probably with you,

0:43:110:43:14

Terry, Richard was on the other.

0:43:140:43:15

And you know what?

0:43:150:43:16

We said we'd respect

the result of the referendum.

0:43:160:43:19

We said we would deliver

what the people wanted

0:43:190:43:21

and the people voted for Brexit.

0:43:210:43:22

Hang on, but on my ballot paper...

0:43:220:43:24

Shut up, Terry!

0:43:240:43:25

Shut up, Terry.

0:43:250:43:26

On my ballot paper it didn't say

anything about leaving the single

0:43:260:43:29

market.

0:43:290:43:30

It's just like Parliament, ladies.

0:43:300:43:31

The blokes trying to

shout the ladies down.

0:43:310:43:36

No, I'm telling you what wasn't

on my ballot paper.

0:43:360:43:38

My ballot paper was Leave or Remain.

0:43:380:43:40

Terry, Terry, please.

0:43:400:43:41

Wait a second, Claire.

0:43:410:43:42

Terry, please.

0:43:420:43:43

Let Claire speak, will you?

0:43:430:43:47

Thank you.

0:43:470:43:48

So, to go to the question,

this question of is it worth it?

0:43:480:43:51

I don't recognise those numbers

because they related to the sort

0:43:510:43:54

of off-the-shelf deals that

are out there.

0:43:540:43:55

Please, Terry!

0:43:550:43:56

Please don't interrupt her.

0:43:560:43:57

Let her have her say.

0:43:570:43:59

It's like my 15-year-old, Terry.

0:43:590:44:00

I'm just helping her.

0:44:000:44:01

No, you're not helping at all.

0:44:010:44:02

You're being really rude, actually.

0:44:020:44:03

I have to say.

0:44:030:44:04

No, I'm just helping her.

0:44:040:44:06

APPLAUSE.

0:44:060:44:08

OK.

0:44:080:44:13

Whenever you go through a divorce,

you set off with a set

0:44:130:44:16

of negotiation objectives.

0:44:160:44:17

And then you negotiate.

0:44:170:44:22

I think it's right, actually,

we have the best civil service

0:44:220:44:25

in the world I think it's right

we look at the numbers,

0:44:250:44:28

we understand where we don't

want to go, which is to reduce

0:44:280:44:30

the growth in the economy.

0:44:300:44:37

Can I just say, for the north-east,

those numbers don't include

0:44:370:44:40

a couple of things.

0:44:400:44:41

They don't include the Sirius

project that will add 20%

0:44:410:44:43

to the Teesside economy.

0:44:430:44:44

They don't include the regeneration

potential from that amazing SSI site

0:44:440:44:47

that companies are queueing up

to invest in.

0:44:470:44:49

So, this is a worst-case scenario.

0:44:490:44:50

Frankly, and I say this

as a Remainer, because we have

0:44:500:44:53

to accept the result,

we can work together.

0:44:530:44:55

It's the time for the country to put

aside all this shouting over

0:44:550:44:58

the referendum and work together

on this historic task,

0:44:580:45:00

which we know we can do and we can

deliver a better place and better

0:45:000:45:03

growth and a global Brexit.

0:45:030:45:05

Why, in that case, do you accuse...

0:45:050:45:06

APPLAUSE.

0:45:060:45:10

Why, in that case, do you accuse

some of your colleagues

0:45:100:45:14

on the backbenches...

0:45:140:45:14

I did not do this.

0:45:140:45:15

I haven't said it yet!

0:45:150:45:17

I know what your going to say.

0:45:170:45:18

What?

0:45:180:45:19

You're going to say...

0:45:190:45:20

Swivel-eyed?

0:45:200:45:21

No.

0:45:210:45:22

They are representing swivel-eyed

constituents, you said.

0:45:220:45:24

No, I said in a private group,

one of the problems with social

0:45:240:45:27

media is that things leak,

that's a lesson for all of us,

0:45:270:45:30

what I said is I hate

extremism in any form.

0:45:330:45:36

And people who are shouting

about my colleagues,

0:45:360:45:37

all of whom swear an oath

of allegiance to the Queen

0:45:370:45:40

and calling them quislings

and traitors for expressing

0:45:400:45:42

their views in Parliament, I think

that language is disgraceful.

0:45:420:45:44

And I think the people that say

that, and they are not people

0:45:440:45:48

who chose to vote to leave the EU

these are extremist voices,

0:45:480:45:50

and there are too many

extremist voices, frankly,

0:45:500:45:52

on both sides of the debate.

0:45:520:45:54

Frankly, often, gentlemen,

shouting really loudly.

0:45:540:45:55

I'm not being extremist!

0:45:550:45:56

Rachel, hang on...

0:45:560:45:57

Can I just say something?

0:45:570:45:59

No, you can't.

0:45:590:46:00

Rachel first.

0:46:000:46:01

Sit quiet and wait.

0:46:010:46:02

Rachel is first.

0:46:020:46:03

I'll come back to you.

0:46:030:46:04

The new model that is going

to be manufactured...

0:46:040:46:06

And women can sometimes

talk over, too.

0:46:060:46:08

Rachel Sylvester, please.

0:46:080:46:09

I think this question goes

to the heart of why the Government

0:46:090:46:12

is in such a bind over Brexit.

0:46:120:46:13

I spoke to a minister recently

who said I've got to choose

0:46:130:46:16

between what I think

is in the national interest

0:46:160:46:18

and the party interest.

0:46:180:46:19

That's not true.

0:46:190:46:21

And I think Theresa May,

in her heart of hearts,

0:46:210:46:23

is unsure whether she is doing

the right thing in pursuing is quite

0:46:230:46:26

hard version of Brexit that

some in the Tory party

0:46:260:46:29

are encouraging her to.

0:46:290:46:30

And I think this goes to a wider

problem that this has got some stuff

0:46:300:46:32

And I think this goes

to a wider problem that this

0:46:380:46:40

has got so messed up

0:46:400:46:41

with party politics,

the politicians are putting

0:46:410:46:43

their parties, and thinking

about their parties,

0:46:430:46:45

rather than the voters.

0:46:450:46:46

Meanwhile, a lot of the reasons that

people voted for Brexit,

0:46:460:46:48

they actually aren't

all economic reasons.

0:46:480:46:50

They are reasons like public

services, things like the housing

0:46:500:46:52

crisis, issues that aren't

being dealt with.

0:46:520:46:54

And they are all being brushed under

the carpet and ignored.

0:46:540:46:57

And I think there is a real danger

that Brexit sort of becomes party

0:46:570:47:00

political squabble and the real

problems in the country

0:47:000:47:02

are not being dealt with.

0:47:020:47:03

OK, the man in the blue shirt?

0:47:030:47:05

APPLAUSE.

0:47:050:47:06

When...

0:47:060:47:08

But Brexit is what the people want.

0:47:080:47:11

Which people?

0:47:110:47:12

When you analyse the figures...

0:47:120:47:13

The people who voted...

0:47:130:47:16

Hang on, the man in the blue shirt,

are we hearing from you?

0:47:160:47:19

With the beard?

0:47:190:47:21

It is your turn to

speak, not Terry's.

0:47:210:47:23

Thank you.

0:47:230:47:26

When will the hardline Remainers

on the political and media elite

0:47:260:47:29

of this country start to have some

faith in this country's ability

0:47:290:47:32

to perform on the world stage?

0:47:320:47:33

People like Terry.

0:47:330:47:40

What, the media elite!?

0:47:400:47:41

You mean like Boris...

0:47:410:47:43

Unlike those rebels

like Boris Johnson?

0:47:430:47:47

Let's hear one person at a time,

and not always you.

0:47:470:47:51

From the media, from the left side

of society, shouting over people.

0:47:510:47:55

Like him shouting about Brexit?

0:47:550:47:56

It's just arrogant.

0:47:560:48:00

They have no faith in this

country's ability to perform.

0:48:000:48:02

It is one of the world's most

powerful, strong, economically...

0:48:020:48:05

Have some faith.

0:48:050:48:06

Emily Thornberry?

0:48:060:48:07

The pound has tanked.

0:48:070:48:10

We are 21 months on

from the referendum.

0:48:140:48:17

And we are not having

a debate on a level

0:48:170:48:20

that we really need to have.

0:48:200:48:27

I think it is really unfortunate

that, on the one hand,

0:48:270:48:30

we have people accusing other

citizens of being swivel-eyed

0:48:300:48:32

loons, or racists.

0:48:320:48:34

On the other side of the debate,

there are people saying

0:48:340:48:36

the other side are traitors.

0:48:360:48:39

Listen, we are in this together,

we are going to leave.

0:48:390:48:43

We only have about eight months now

to start making a decision about how

0:48:430:48:47

it is we are going to leave

and what it is we are going to do.

0:48:470:48:51

And I have to say, I find

it profoundly worrying

0:48:510:48:54

that the Cabinet, who are the ones

who are going to have

0:48:540:48:57

to make the decisions

about how we are negotiating,

0:48:570:49:00

are only now starting

to have a discussion

0:49:000:49:02

about whether or not we should be

in the customs union.

0:49:020:49:06

I mean, for heaven's sake,

this is the future of our country.

0:49:060:49:08

I tell you what, guys,

I would like to speak

0:49:080:49:11

without you interrupting.

0:49:110:49:13

It's about the future of our country

and the future of our children.

0:49:130:49:19

And it does seem to me that we have

to come to a deal that

0:49:190:49:22

will work for all the regions

and all the nations of our country.

0:49:220:49:25

And this is why we need

to come together and stop

0:49:250:49:28

shouting at each other.

0:49:280:49:30

All right.

0:49:300:49:31

APPLAUSE.

0:49:310:49:34

Let's try to finish this

discussion without shouting.

0:49:340:49:38

The woman there, the

person in spectacles?

0:49:380:49:40

Man or a woman?

0:49:400:49:41

Yes, you.

0:49:410:49:44

I totally agree, I think the problem

with politics at the moment

0:49:440:49:47

is there is too much politics.

0:49:470:49:49

There is too much ranting

at each other about Brexit,

0:49:490:49:52

about the consequences

of the election as well.

0:49:520:49:55

I recently set up a petition about

having a government of shared unity.

0:49:550:50:01

And that is an idea of actually

having party leaders coming

0:50:010:50:04

together as a union.

0:50:040:50:08

So, not actually having the role

of a Prime Minister and sorting

0:50:080:50:11

stuff out like Brexit.

0:50:110:50:12

Because Brexit, people don't really

understand what it has

0:50:120:50:14

meant for the country.

0:50:140:50:17

And I think Brexit is

actually England, well,

0:50:170:50:20

Great Britain, deciding to...

0:50:200:50:23

Like...

0:50:230:50:28

Have their own decisions

about their own country.

0:50:280:50:31

How it runs.

0:50:310:50:34

And it's not we hate foreigners,

it's we just want to make our own

0:50:340:50:38

decision of certain aspects

to benefit the country we live in.

0:50:380:50:44

So what would be the first decision

you make when we've left the EU?

0:50:440:50:47

What is the EU stopping

us from deciding?

0:50:470:50:52

Every country...

0:50:520:50:53

Is individual.

0:50:530:50:56

Germany trade with China,

we can trade with who we want.

0:50:560:51:00

That's a lie.

0:51:000:51:03

Sorry, I cannot believe

a word you're saying.

0:51:030:51:07

Well, I'm telling you, it's a lie.

0:51:070:51:09

We can trade with who we like.

0:51:090:51:12

If we've got a majority, 52 to 48,

and we all agree that

0:51:120:51:15

it's going to happen,

and we all agree were

0:51:150:51:17

going to leave the EU,

and were going to leave the customs

0:51:170:51:21

union, then forget hard,

forget soft, right,

0:51:210:51:23

we are the fifth-stroke-sixth

largest trading nation in the world.

0:51:230:51:26

Sixth or seventh.

0:51:260:51:28

You're telling me Europe doesn't

want to trade with us?

0:51:280:51:31

Get out of it.

0:51:310:51:32

We need to be resolute

and stand together.

0:51:320:51:40

It a very basic question for me.

0:51:410:51:43

I said that none of you wanted

to talk about Brexit.

0:51:430:51:45

75% of you didn't want

to talk about Brexit.

0:51:450:51:48

A very basic question for me.

0:51:480:51:49

How do we become wealthier

by leaving the richest

0:51:490:51:52

trading bloc in the world?

0:51:520:51:53

Terry!

0:51:530:51:54

Thank you very much.

0:51:540:51:55

Have a biscuit, calm down, dear.

0:51:550:51:56

This is a question

from Rachel Wearmouth.

0:51:560:51:58

Let's have your question.

0:51:580:51:59

The last five minutes

of the programme.

0:51:590:52:01

100 years on, what still needs to be

done to encourage more women

0:52:010:52:04

to go into politics?

0:52:040:52:05

Thank you for a great question.

0:52:050:52:06

Who would like to start on it?

0:52:060:52:08

Rachel, you start on this one.

0:52:080:52:10

I think the tone of

politics is actually one

0:52:100:52:12

of the most important things.

0:52:120:52:14

I've been covering politics

now for about 20 years.

0:52:140:52:18

And the number of women has gone up

hugely in the House of Commons,

0:52:180:52:21

and it's changed a lot.

0:52:210:52:23

But all the talk about sexual

harassment or whatever,

0:52:230:52:27

the thing that really puts people

off is seeing men shouting at each

0:52:270:52:30

other across the dispatch box.

0:52:300:52:31

And also, the...

0:52:310:52:33

And also the really nasty,

vile stuff that particularly

0:52:330:52:36

women MPs get on Twitter.

0:52:360:52:43

I'm sure both Claire

and Emily have had this.

0:52:430:52:46

There are death threats,

I know women MPs who have had to put

0:52:460:52:49

seven locks on the doors

because they are so

0:52:490:52:51

frightened at night.

0:52:510:52:52

Both within parties, actually,

and from outside parties,

0:52:520:52:54

and I think the party leaders have

to be much stronger about that.

0:52:540:52:57

And it's the tone and the nature

of the political debate

0:52:570:53:00

that has got to change.

0:53:000:53:02

APPLAUSE.

0:53:020:53:04

Emily Thornberry?

0:53:040:53:08

I think it really helps having more

women in Parliament.

0:53:080:53:11

And I think that young girls looking

at Parliament can see

0:53:110:53:14

that there is more women around.

0:53:140:53:17

And I hear what you say.

0:53:170:53:18

It is tough.

0:53:180:53:20

But I'm not a victim.

0:53:200:53:21

I'm doing the best job in the world.

0:53:210:53:27

I'm doing the best job in the world.

0:53:270:53:29

And any 15-year-old girl

watching television tonight,

0:53:290:53:35

you want to be involved in power,

if you want to be involved

0:53:350:53:38

in making decisions,

it seems to me there

0:53:380:53:40

are lots of things that have been

politically neglected.

0:53:400:53:42

And areas that are quite

often things that women

0:53:420:53:44

feel strongly about.

0:53:440:53:45

We've talked about the NHS,

we've talked about social care.

0:53:450:53:47

We've talked about childbirth.

0:53:470:53:48

There are lots of things that,

actually, I think are neglected

0:53:480:53:51

and probably will be talked

about much more if more

0:53:510:53:53

women were involved.

0:53:530:53:56

But, anyway, even parking that,

there is everything else.

0:53:560:53:58

There's everything else.

0:53:580:54:02

And we have as good and as strong

a say as anyone else and we need

0:54:020:54:05

to get more women involved.

0:54:050:54:07

And yes, the more women we get,

the more that women will think

0:54:070:54:10

this is a job for me.

0:54:100:54:11

I can do this job as well.

0:54:110:54:13

In the end, you don't need any

political qualifications,

0:54:130:54:15

you don't need to go to university

and get a degree, being

0:54:150:54:18

an MP, or anything else.

0:54:180:54:19

You just need to be a good, strong,

voice for your community and be

0:54:190:54:23

proud, and speak out,

be brave and be bold,

0:54:230:54:25

and it's a job for girls.

0:54:250:54:28

APPLAUSE

0:54:330:54:34

There is an arm up

there, and I can't see

0:54:340:54:36

who it is attached to.

0:54:360:54:38

But, anyway, with the long-sleeve.

0:54:380:54:39

Yes, that person, yes.

0:54:390:54:41

It's you.

0:54:410:54:44

I think the main thing is that

politics needs to appeal

0:54:440:54:46

to younger people more.

0:54:460:54:48

Because that will be the next

generation of MPs and people

0:54:480:54:51

who work in Westminster.

0:54:510:54:52

A lot of my friends,

when I talk about it,

0:54:520:54:55

they will say, well,

politics doesn't affect me,

0:54:550:54:56

it doesn't interest me.

0:54:560:55:01

Actually, when you start to look

into it you think, well,

0:55:010:55:04

actually, it does affect me.

0:55:040:55:05

And that is when you

become more interested.

0:55:050:55:08

I think as well, to them,

they will think, actually,

0:55:080:55:11

I do want to go into that.

0:55:110:55:12

Rather than saying, oh,

women, come and join us,

0:55:120:55:15

you need to say, actually,

politics as a whole, come

0:55:150:55:17

and have a lot of interest in us.

0:55:170:55:19

And that is when more people

will join, and more women.

0:55:190:55:22

Claire Perry?

0:55:220:55:23

I completely agree with Emily.

0:55:230:55:24

I have to say, the more women get

in, the more the tone changes.

0:55:240:55:27

This is what happens all the time.

0:55:270:55:31

Lots of people shouting

about the theory of things, and,

0:55:310:55:34

actually, women in general,

cross-party, work together

0:55:340:55:36

to get things done.

0:55:360:55:39

Actually, the essence of being an MP

is standing up for a constituency

0:55:390:55:42

that you love and is trying to help

people in it.

0:55:420:55:45

And that's the stuff you don't write

press releases about.

0:55:450:55:47

You just do it.

0:55:470:55:48

And I think women, frankly, do that,

as well as men, very well.

0:55:480:55:51

But I would change

one thing radically.

0:55:510:55:53

We are about to embark,

at some point, on restoring

0:55:530:55:55

the Palace of Westminster,

which is the cradle of democracy.

0:55:550:55:58

It's beautiful, but they want to do

it at the minimum amount

0:55:580:56:00

of costs to taxpayers.

0:56:000:56:02

Why don't we have a chamber that

isn't based on how far men used

0:56:020:56:06

to have to stand not to kill each

other with swords,

0:56:060:56:08

which is where the measurement

of the chamber came from?

0:56:080:56:11

Why can't we have a more consensual

setup that doesn't encourage people

0:56:110:56:14

to yell at each other

across the dispatch box?

0:56:140:56:16

That would definitely help.

0:56:160:56:17

Richard Tice?

0:56:170:56:19

Emily was 110% right.

0:56:200:56:22

It is fantastic.

0:56:220:56:25

I was interested, what attracts

you is just power.

0:56:250:56:28

Yes!

0:56:280:56:30

Hopefully, what attracts politicians

is making a difference, improving...

0:56:300:56:33

But you can't make

a difference without power,

0:56:330:56:35

that's the whole point!

0:56:350:56:36

That's the whole point.

0:56:360:56:38

Politics is about power

and when you close your eyes,

0:56:380:56:40

who you are thinking about.

0:56:400:56:45

And how you're making

those decisions.

0:56:450:56:46

Could you not shout

at me so I can speak?

0:56:460:56:49

I'm just telling you.

0:56:490:56:52

I am quite passionate about this.

0:56:520:56:54

A brief last word, and then Terry?

0:56:540:56:56

To encourage more people

into politics, we have got to do

0:56:560:56:59

something about the abuse

on social media.

0:56:590:57:00

When we go home tonight,

it will be absolutely horrendous out

0:57:000:57:03

there in terms of the trolling.

0:57:030:57:03

Terry?

0:57:060:57:09

It's strange, because we think

we are over it in this country,

0:57:090:57:12

you know, the sexism in politics.

0:57:120:57:14

Yet what is very telling,

and this week it is the 100th

0:57:140:57:17

anniversary of women,

you know, fighting...

0:57:170:57:18

Some women.

0:57:180:57:19

Women fighting to get the vote,

some women, yes, 100 years ago.

0:57:190:57:23

But I've heard the phrase

given the vote.

0:57:230:57:25

They were not given the vote,

they fought for the vote.

0:57:250:57:32

You know, there is

still a long way to go.

0:57:320:57:35

OK, we are on our second

female Prime Minister.

0:57:350:57:37

Well, yeah, good!

0:57:370:57:38

To me, I think we would let

the Downing Street cat do a better

0:57:380:57:41

job, but it's great that

she's got there.

0:57:410:57:43

But the reality is,

if you look around the world,

0:57:430:57:46

there is still a long way

for women to go.

0:57:460:57:48

I was quite moved by those women

in Iran, doing the hijab protest.

0:57:480:57:51

You know, that, to me,

is something that we should applaud.

0:57:510:57:54

That is a sign of how far women have

got to go in politics,

0:57:540:57:57

not just in this country,

but all around the world.

0:57:570:58:00

OK, we have to stop.

0:58:000:58:01

Thank you very much.

0:58:010:58:03

APPLAUSE

0:58:050:58:09

Next Thursday

we are going to be in

0:58:140:58:16

the Fleet Air Arm Museum At Yeovil.

0:58:160:58:18

And the week after that we are going

to be at the JCB plant in Uttoxeter.

0:58:180:58:22

If you'd like to come to either

of those two Question Time editions,

0:58:220:58:25

call 0330 123 99 88.

0:58:250:58:26

You can apply online to the website

address, which is there.

0:58:260:58:28

If you want to have your say

on the many things that have

0:58:280:58:32

aroused our panel and audience

tonight, join Question Time Extra

0:58:320:58:34

Time on BBC 5 Live now and also

you can watch it on the iPlayer.

0:58:340:58:38

My thanks to our panel

and to all of you who came

0:58:380:58:44

to Darlington to take part in this

edition of Question Time.

0:58:440:58:46

Until next Thursday, Good night.

0:58:460:58:48

APPLAUSE.

0:58:480:58:51

David Dimbleby chairs the debate from Darlington. On the panel are Conservative energy minister Claire Perry MP, shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, businessman and co-chair of the pressure group Leave Means Leave Richard Tice, political columnist for the Times Rachel Sylvester, and broadcaster and author Terry Christian.


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