01/03/2018 Question Time


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01/03/2018

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Blackpool. Panellists include Ken Clarke, Owen Smith, Nigel Farage, Michelle Dewberry and Radzi Chanyanganya.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, we're in Blackpool,

and welcome to Question Time.

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And with us on the panel tonight,

the former Chancellor

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of the Exchequer, Home Secretary

and everything else you can think

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of, and MP for 47 years,

no fan of Brexit, Ken Clarke.

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Labour's Shadow Secretary of State

for Northern Ireland,

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who stood against Jeremy Corbyn

for the leadership of

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the Labour Party, Owen Smith.

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The former leader of Ukip,

who led the campaign

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for a referendum on the EU,

Nigel Farage.

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The businesswoman, politician,

former winner of the Apprentice,

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Michelle Dewberry.

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And the television presenter,

Radzi Chinyanganya,

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Blue Peter presenter,

just back from Seoul,

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where he was covering

the Winter Olympics.

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Good, thank you very much.

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Well, we have a lot to get through,

but just a reminder, from home,

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if you want to join in the arguments

you can use #BBCQT

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on both Twitter and Facebook,

and argue the toss.

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Our first question tonight

is from Rachael Lord, please.

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With less than 400 days

until Britain leaves the EU,

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has the government wasted

the last 616 days?

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Right, 616 days wasted.

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400 days to go.

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Have they been wasted?

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Nigel Farage.

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Well, in some ways they have,

because it's all a bit

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contradictory, isn't it?

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Because Theresa May gives

the Lancaster House speech

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in January last year, and I'm

listening to her and I'm thinking,

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"I don't believe this".

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Here's a British Prime Minister

using exactly the same words

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and phrases that I've

been using for 20 years,

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without being called extremist

or mad or bad.

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And I thought, "Wow, we've really

got a government here that's

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"going to deliver on the things

that people voted for".

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And then a few months later,

her second big speech

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on Brexit was in Florence,

when she says, "Well,

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"we are leaving the European Union

but it's a really fantastic

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"organisation, and we are going

to sign back up to justice and home

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"affairs and cooperation in this

and that the other".

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And you think, "Well, are we really

leaving, or aren't we"?

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And when she was asked a question

on a radio show recently,

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if there was a referendum now,

how would she vote, she couldn't

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answer the question.

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And I just feel...

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I know she's in a tight corner,

I know it's difficult,

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she's got people like old Clarke

over here, you know,

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and Anna Soubry, and it's

difficult for her.

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But I do think these mixed

messages need to end.

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She is giving this

big speech tomorrow.

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I think she needs to come

out with some clarity

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and she needs to put a counter

to what Monsieur Barnier put

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on the table yesterday.

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We need to say, "Right,

this is what we are after.

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"We are reasonable people,

we are prepared to compromise,

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"but unless you are prepared to stop

treating us like a hostage,

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"to treat us with some respect,

then we will say that no deal

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"is better than a bad deal,

and walk away".

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And unless she does that tomorrow,

the EU will not, in my opinion,

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take her seriously,

and we will go wasting time.

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APPLAUSE

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Where would you compromise?

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I thought Brexit meant Brexit,

to you of all people.

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Brexit does mean Brexit.

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Of course there are compromises.

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I mean, you know, we need to talk

about the financial settlement.

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And if there's a couple of bob

we need to pay them, we'll do it.

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I mean things like that,

we'll be reasonable.

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On Northern Ireland,

to sort out the border issue

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there needs to be compromise

actually on both sides.

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So of course we are reasonable,

but what is for certain is every

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single major player in that

referendum campaign, Ken included,

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said if we vote to leave,

we are leaving the single market,

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and by implication,

the customs union.

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And of course David Cameron said it,

all your team on the Remain side

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said it, all the Leave team said it.

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And that's the point.

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Unless we leave the customs union

and the single market,

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we will not be able to go global

and to get the benefits that ought

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to come from Brexit.

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OK, Ken Clarke then.

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APPLAUSE

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Back to the question,

have the government wasted the last

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616 days, with only 400 to go?

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Well, there have been mistakes,

because it was a mistake

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to invoke Article 50 before

we were ready to start.

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And that is because some

of the Eurosceptics were getting

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rather paranoid, as they still are,

that they are going to be

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cheated somehow, it's

still not going to happen.

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So this was meant to be

a flagship statement.

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And we weren't ready

to negotiate anything.

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Is that why you voted against it?

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I voted against it because I stuck

to my lifelong convictions of

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believing in the European project.

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Regardless of what the British

public voted for at the referendum.

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I made it quite clear that I thought

it was not a suitable

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thing for a referendum.

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I thought it was absurd to have

one day, such a broad

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question with hundreds

of complicated questions below.

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And that's the problem now.

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Because nobody actually debated

what is going to be years of quite

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competitive negotiations.

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Nobody addressed

what Leave would be.

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Nobody thought Leave

was going to win.

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Nigel didn't.

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I heard him cheerily

on the night of the count.

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He was saying the struggle

continues, and went to bed,

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and then was amazed,

as Boris was shocked, to discover

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that they'd actually won.

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And nobody had actually even begun

to think through that what we're

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doing if we follow this decision

is actually taking apart over 40

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years in which we've actually

prospered, done well,

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been quite a prominent country

in a rules-based

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international order,

globalised economy,

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major free-trade system,

our role in the world as one

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of the major players in the EU,

that's why we are so important

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to the United States and so on.

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And our modern economy

has been based on this.

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Now, all this we have to go

through item by item.

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The problem with the debate is,

like all trade treaties

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and political treaties,

it is so complicated,

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you don't normally have a public

debate about it at all.

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I mean, the technocrats

who negotiate it and a few anoraks

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in the House of Commons

and the people in the CBI

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and the trade unions,

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are usually the only people who get

into this kind of picture.

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So as time goes by, and people want

an instant, simple solution,

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and it's not going to happen.

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Optimistic, are you, in 400 days

the thing will be sorted?

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I don't think there's the slightest

chance of our having arrived

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at the final destination

in 400 days.

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I think we need a transition period

of at least two years.

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And as long as it takes to actually

have grown up, sorted out details

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of what the new relationships

are going to be, that don't disrupt

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some people's business,

or don't disrupt some

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of our industries or

services and so on.

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Behind all the passion about Brexit,

there are an awful lot of things,

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important to our society,

important to our jobs,

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our investment, also our security.

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And our environment and other

things, have to be sorted out.

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So 600 days, it's a pity

we haven't made further

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progress, but there we are.

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Michelle Dewberry.

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APPLAUSE

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Well, so, firstly I agree

with you in the sense

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of there was no plans made,

I don't think, to consider

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the outcome of Brexit.

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And I think that was

absolutely disgraceful.

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And you say that, Ken,

as though it's someone else's

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responsibility to have

done that thinking.

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I feel very strongly

that the government let us down

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by not even having a plan for Brexit

when it happened.

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I do.

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And I feel like that

was the government at

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the time's responsibility.

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Now, as for the last 616 days,

I would like to rewind that and play

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it as a film and play either

the Benny Hill theme tune

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or the hokey cokey over it,

because honestly, I have

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found it so confusing.

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We're in, we are out,

we want this, we don't want this,

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there's impact statements,

oh, no, there's not.

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It's now become something

where there's so much

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political posturing,

almost like people are trying to get

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political personal gain,

instead of coming together,

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respecting the referendum result

and looking at how do we implement

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this for the greater good

of the country in the future and not

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for the greater good of a person's

political career going forward.

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Let me come to some

of the audience and see what...

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You, what do you think

about the way it's going?

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You, sir, yes.

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I would like to just concur

with what Nigel was saying before.

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I think the United Kingdom,

currently, there was never a time

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like the present when we need

a strong leader, whoever that is.

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And unless somebody at the top

can show us some teeth,

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because I've not seen it myself yet,

it's as you say, we're just getting

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mixed messages all the time

and no clarity whatsoever.

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Who would you like

to see leading this?

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I don't really care who leads,

I just want to see a strong person.

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The person up there

at the very back.

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Yes.

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This is the whole problem.

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If it had remained a common market,

which is what it was set out to be

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before I was old enough to vote

in or out.

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It was a common market.

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People wouldn't have

an issue with that.

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We have a common market

where we all traded together

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and a security arrangement.

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But it's got far too

complicated, as is shown by how

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complicated it is to unravel.

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It's going to take ages and ages

to unravel and unpick it

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and decide what we do want

and what we don't want.

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Are you dismayed by that?

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Yes.

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Owen Smith.

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I don't think they've wasted it

so much as they've been scrapping

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amongst themselves because this

is incredibly complicated.

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Michelle is right, the government

had not prepared properly.

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Nigel definitely didn't think

he was going to win.

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He was clearly delighted

that he did win.

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Well, I tried damn hard.

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I think you've been

extremely influential.

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I've been very trying, yes.

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Very influential, unfortunately.

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But the truth is, it's

incredibly complicated.

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The lady there said that she wished

we were still in the common market.

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Well, common market,

the modern equivalent

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of that is effectively staying

in the customs union

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and the single market.

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But the Tories don't want to stay

in the customs union.

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They don't want to stay

in the single market, they say.

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They thought we had sorted

out what we were going

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to do on transition.

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Ken talks about a two-year period

being needed for that.

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Now we're not even sure what they're

going to do for transition.

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Northern Ireland, that

I'm responsible for,

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has obviously caught

all the headlines this week.

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Nobody had given any

thought to that.

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Nigel didn't talk about it.

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Nobody really knew how

we were going to maintain

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the Good Friday Agreement

and an open border in Ireland.

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And so we are, after the referendum,

trying to sort out these

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incredibly thorny issues,

and it is going to take a long time.

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And it isn't helped, frankly,

by people like Nigel saying,

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"Get on with it, we've got

to deliver it tomorrow".

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And he's doing that, of course,

for his political purposes.

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No.

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He's doing that because he believes

it puts him back in the spotlight.

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The truth is we've

got to get it right.

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We voted to leave.

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But we didn't vote on all of those

separate complex issues, Nigel.

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Do you accept that every major

player on the Remain and Leave side

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said if we vote to leave,

we are leaving the single market?

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No.

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You don't accept that.

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I saw Daniel Hannan,

the Conservative MP,

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saying explicitly nobody is talking

about leaving the single market.

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I saw Owen Paterson,

who is the Northern Ireland

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Secretary, saying explicitly,

nobody is talking about

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leaving the single market.

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They are two of the leading

Brexit campaigners.

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I said major players.

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You mean you, Nigel?

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I mean Boris, Michael Gove,

really senior figures.

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Shall we allow a new member

of the panel to have a word?

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Radzi.

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I'm getting really bored of hearing

the politicians tell us

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what they believe we really

voted for when it came

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to the EU referendum.

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I actually spent one month

in Pyeongchang working

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at the Winter Olympics.

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I came back, and it feels

like nothing's changed whatsoever.

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To come to your point, Rachel,

think it's a really good one.

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The waters have been muddied so much

with the customs union,

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duplicitous semantics

where we are sort of having

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one finger in one pie,

one finger in another.

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And for me, the whole point

of the referendum was,

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do we want independence,

or do we want unity?

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I think the public have

actually voted on this.

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I think we know where we stand.

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And I think to take us anywhere

elsewhere is to do us,

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as an electorate, a disservice.

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And actually I think it's

undemocratic to question

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the will of the people,

regardless of which way you voted.

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We know the direction of travel

now, and let's actually

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move in that direction.

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APPLAUSE

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Carrying on, really,

from what Ken Clarke said,

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that it hadn't been thought

through properly, it wasn't thought

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through before we went in properly.

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Nobody told us that

our fishing industries

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were going to be decimated.

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And many other things.

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And following on from what that

lady up there said, yes,

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it has got very complicated.

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We voted...

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Well, I didn't vote, actually.

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I think it's the worst thing

that this country has

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ever been dragged into.

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You didn't vote because you were

against the idea of the vote?

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I was totally opposed to the idea

right from the beginning.

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We've always been an independent

country, and anybody under the age

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of 40 has never lived

in a free country.

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Think about that.

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And over there, yes.

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Sorry, yes.

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My question is really that this

is one of the biggest decisions

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we're going to make for our country

since World War II.

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And I think we went

into a referendum with hardly any

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information whatsoever.

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We had figures quoted

on the back of a red bus

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which we were sucked into believing.

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And as the impact and

the indications of going

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into the referendum,

and the agreement we are going

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to come out with suggests

we are going to be a different

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place, I genuinely feel

that the people who voted to leave

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did not have the relevant facts.

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Now, as the facts come

on the table, we need a genuine

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requirement to go back again.

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Karen Hines.

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We'll take up your point.

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Karen Hines.

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That was you!

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It was.

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Well, you've had your say,

now put your question.

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What was your question going to be?

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My question is, was John Major right

to suggest that once we understand

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the impact of leaving the EU,

should we actually go back

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to the people to actually vote

for what is on the table?

0:14:200:14:24

So a second vote,

a second referendum?

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That's what John Major

was suggesting, either through

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Parliament or through the public

vote, that once we understand

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what we are actually

agreeing to leave with,

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rather than the fiction

that was propagated earlier,

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once we get those facts

on the table,

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should we actually revisit and say,

is this the deal we thought

0:14:420:14:45

we were voting for the first time?

0:14:450:14:49

Michelle Dewberry, do

you think that's a good idea?

0:14:490:14:51

I just don't really see...

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I voted Leave, and I share

concerns that actually

0:14:520:14:55

there was misinformation

on both sides.

0:14:550:14:59

For me, it was so focused

on fighting with each other instead

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of articulating things

properly to us.

0:15:020:15:04

So I share that concern.

0:15:040:15:12

But I don't see how a second

referendum could work

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because if the EU knew that actually

we're just going to have a second

0:15:150:15:19

referendum and therefore

we could potentially undo the first

0:15:190:15:21

one, why would they work hard

to give us a deal of any substance?

0:15:210:15:25

But they're not.

0:15:250:15:26

I don't see they would.

0:15:260:15:28

But they're not, are they?

0:15:280:15:29

They're not.

0:15:290:15:30

They're absolutely not

doing that at all.

0:15:300:15:31

OK you sir, up there,

with the spectacles on.

0:15:310:15:33

On the gangway there.

0:15:330:15:35

All we need is a strong leader

who is going to give us a direction

0:15:350:15:41

in what direction we're going to go.

0:15:410:15:43

There's no strong leadership to give

us any sort of focus

0:15:430:15:46

and all the country should get

behind us from that point.

0:15:460:15:49

So in the absence of what you call

a strong leader, what happens?

0:15:490:15:52

What do you think

is going to happen?

0:15:520:15:54

It's going to be side

to side all the time.

0:15:540:15:56

You've got polarisation

between both parties.

0:15:560:15:58

You need a strong leader and then

the opposition needs

0:15:580:16:00

to go along with them.

0:16:000:16:01

Nigel Farage, you once

flirted with the idea

0:16:010:16:03

of a second referendum?

0:16:030:16:04

No, I didn't, I said I feared.

0:16:040:16:06

Feared, all right.

0:16:060:16:07

Because there is a great

Brexit betrayal going on,

0:16:070:16:10

that parliament may force a second

referendum upon us.

0:16:100:16:12

I pray they don't, but I do

fear and I think some

0:16:120:16:16

of the people in this panel

would like a second referendum.

0:16:160:16:20

I think you did say you wanted

a second referendum.

0:16:200:16:22

It was his policy.

0:16:220:16:23

He said he wanted one.

0:16:230:16:24

Of course not.

0:16:240:16:25

You said you wanted one.

0:16:250:16:26

No, no.

0:16:260:16:27

The point is, I don't want a second

referendum, but I fear it.

0:16:270:16:31

For John Major to say -

and they're all doing it -

0:16:310:16:33

any of you here that voted

Brexit, you're thick.

0:16:330:16:36

You're stupid.

0:16:360:16:37

You didn't understand

what you're doing.

0:16:370:16:38

He did not say that.

0:16:380:16:39

We're sick to death of insults

from people like John Major.

0:16:390:16:42

That's insulting to John Major.

0:16:420:16:43

We knew exactly what

we were voting on.

0:16:430:16:45

We voted to become an independent

country - full stop.

0:16:450:16:47

Mr Farage, can I challenge

that slightly and say,

0:16:470:16:50

when we voted to leave,

did we know we were leaving

0:16:500:16:53

the customs union and did we notice

that we're actually going to vote

0:16:530:16:56

for a Northern-Southern

Ireland border.

0:16:560:17:00

That was never brought up at all.

0:17:000:17:02

Let me just go around

the panel again.

0:17:020:17:05

Ken Clarke, what is your view?

0:17:050:17:07

Great, I'll come back to you.

0:17:070:17:10

But, what is your view about how

this thing should be endorsed,

0:17:100:17:13

if it should be, either

by referendum or by parliament?

0:17:130:17:15

Well, sticking to the serious

subject, because Nigel sort of just

0:17:150:17:19

starts insulting John Major and then

-

Wow, I tell you what...

0:17:190:17:27

Just starts insulting John Major

and then serious to future

-

0:17:300:17:33

Wow, I tell you what...

0:17:330:17:37

It is very serious to future

generations what we're talking

0:17:370:17:39

about actually and should not be

reduced to that kind

0:17:390:17:42

of rubbish, frankly.

0:17:420:17:43

APPLAUSE.

0:17:430:17:44

I do agree that the referendum

campaign was - certainly as reported

0:17:440:17:47

in the national media

- was disastrous.

0:17:470:17:48

I mean a load of rubbish

from both sides was reported.

0:17:480:17:51

Absolutely none of the issues

being talked about now.

0:17:510:17:53

I did some town hall meetings

with leading figures of the other

0:17:530:17:56

side and there were perfectly

sensible exchanges on both

0:17:560:17:58

sides some of them.

0:17:580:17:59

None of that actually

was shared with the public.

0:17:590:18:01

Anybody who didn't know much

about the European Union

0:18:010:18:03

was probably more mystified

by the end of the campaign

0:18:030:18:06

than they had been at the start.

0:18:060:18:08

So there's a danger

we'd repeat that.

0:18:080:18:09

I mean, I'm an eccentric remainer,

if you like, I don't want

0:18:090:18:12

a second referendum.

0:18:120:18:13

Particularly, as I've just said,

it is on a hugely complex series

0:18:130:18:16

of treaties which you're not

going to have a serious

0:18:160:18:18

debate about.

0:18:180:18:20

The problem with the broad brush

question before was -

0:18:200:18:25

on both sides, remain and leave -

everybody didn't vote

0:18:250:18:27

for the same reason.

0:18:270:18:31

People voted remain,

some of them with different

0:18:310:18:39

reasons from each other.

0:18:390:18:40

We know all that, but should

parliament have a final say?

0:18:400:18:43

When I say I declared no sane reason

for leaving erratum,

0:18:430:18:45

I'm told that my master's the people

who've ordered me to leave erratum.

0:18:450:18:48

With the greatest respect,

I don't think I'm being too arrogant

0:18:480:18:51

in saying, I don't think most

of my constituents had

0:18:510:18:53

any view on erratum,

you'd have to do them the courtesy

0:18:530:18:57

of explaining what nuclear

safeguarding work (inaudible)

0:18:570:18:59

before you leave it -

Do you have a view about

0:18:590:19:02

whether there should be

a parliamentary vote at the end

0:19:020:19:04

of the day?

0:19:040:19:05

I think there should be a free vote.

0:19:050:19:07

It's very good because,

if you had a free vote,

0:19:070:19:09

both parties would collapse.

0:19:090:19:11

They're both hopelessly divided.

0:19:110:19:12

The reason you have such bizarre,

rather mixed messages

0:19:120:19:14

as the official party programme

is coming out is, Theresa

0:19:140:19:20

can't get her Cabinet

to agree with each other.

0:19:200:19:22

She's negotiating -

Can't get you to agree with her!

0:19:220:19:24

Obviously, I'm not in the Cabinet.

0:19:240:19:26

She's negotiating with Boris more

than she's able to negotiate

0:19:260:19:28

with Michel Barnier or anybody else.

0:19:280:19:31

On the Labour side, the vast

majority of them are pro-European,

0:19:310:19:35

but Corbyn and McDonnell are two

of the most hard line eurosceptics

0:19:350:19:38

in the House of Commons.

0:19:380:19:41

Now, members of parliament,

two-thirds of them will be in favour

0:19:410:19:47

of staying in the Common Market,

which is now called the single

0:19:470:19:50

market and the customs union.

0:19:500:19:51

Is that how they're going

to vote and that's what's

0:19:510:19:54

going to happen, is it?

0:19:540:19:55

Well, a free vote would hope

because they're terrified

0:19:550:20:03

-- help of the whips

and they're terrified

0:20:110:20:13

of the Daily Mail because they're

0:20:130:20:15

denounced as traitors,

enemies of the people if they don't

0:20:150:20:17

realise that every one of those

millions who voted remain knew it

0:20:170:20:20

meant leaving the customs union,

which they most certainly didn't

0:20:200:20:22

or had views on the Irish

border, apparently.

0:20:220:20:24

I don't remember it being mentioned.

0:20:240:20:26

Radzi, do you want to see parliament

vote on this, in the way that

0:20:260:20:29

Ken has just explained?

0:20:290:20:30

That probably it will turn down

a lot of the ideas that

0:20:300:20:33

Nigel Farage has and others had

when they voted to leave?

0:20:330:20:36

For me, no, and it's very simple.

0:20:360:20:37

In 1975, when we had

the original EU referendum,

0:20:370:20:39

the answer was we wanted to remain

in at that point.

0:20:390:20:42

There was no question about by how

much we want to remain

0:20:420:20:45

in and let's negotiate that,

and let's nusiance it.

0:20:450:20:47

There was no question then.

0:20:470:20:48

But now the answer has been Brexit,

we're now going to change it

0:20:480:20:51

to the answer we feel

the will of the power wants.

0:20:510:20:54

But in addition to that,

I think there's a broader question

0:20:540:20:57

about what is politics

and what is democracy?

0:20:570:20:59

Why is it that we're only allowed

one vote every five years,

0:20:590:21:02

we do have by-elections as well.

0:21:020:21:03

On X Factor, on Strictly Come

Dancing you can vote weekly,

0:21:030:21:06

immediately with your phones.

0:21:060:21:07

All right.

0:21:070:21:08

Heaven help us.

0:21:080:21:09

God forbid an election.

0:21:090:21:10

A weekly referendum.

0:21:100:21:11

He's got a point, I think.

0:21:110:21:12

Yes, yes.

0:21:120:21:13

For some of us, we would be

in business anyway.

0:21:130:21:16

You, sir.

0:21:160:21:17

I was a vote Leave co-ordinator

and people voted for various

0:21:170:21:19

different reasons, a number

of different reasons,

0:21:190:21:21

it wasn't one particular one.

0:21:210:21:22

But two members of the audience

I think have hit it spot on tonight,

0:21:220:21:26

it's about leadership.

0:21:260:21:27

Owen's very eloquent and spoke very

well tonight with regard

0:21:270:21:29

to the Labour position,

but it's very important that

0:21:290:21:31

Corbyn has a role to play,

and I'm a Conservative

0:21:310:21:34

and the Government is leading,

but it needs to be every political

0:21:340:21:37

party has to show true leadership

and the flip flopping by Labour,

0:21:370:21:39

over the last 12 months,

I just think has been disgraceful.

0:21:390:21:42

What do you make of this change,

apparent change, in Labour's policy?

0:21:420:21:45

There'll be another

change next week.

0:21:450:21:47

That's what we've put up

with for the last 12 months.

0:21:470:21:50

There's no direction,

political direction and every

0:21:500:21:53

party has to play a role.

0:21:530:21:55

They said they're in favour

of the customs union.

0:21:550:21:57

They want to stay in that.

0:21:570:21:59

They are this week, but we don't

know whether that's going to be

0:21:590:22:02

the same case going forward.

0:22:020:22:03

Oh, I see.

0:22:030:22:04

That's the difficulty.

0:22:040:22:05

Each political party has to set

out what they believe,

0:22:050:22:07

and there will be an influence

on the outcome of the overall

0:22:070:22:10

negotiations, but at the moment

you've not got the effective

0:22:100:22:13

opposition that actually makes

the Government stronger as well.

0:22:130:22:15

I think Theresa's doing the best

she is, but each political

0:22:150:22:17

party has to play a role.

0:22:170:22:19

OK, you in the front row there.

0:22:190:22:21

Hold on, wait a second.

0:22:210:22:22

OK, fire away.

0:22:220:22:23

Just to draw back to the original

point that was made,

0:22:230:22:25

I'm just going to back to it.

0:22:250:22:27

First of all the lady

over here on my left.

0:22:270:22:30

Quite frankly, as someone who also

voted to leave the European Union,

0:22:300:22:34

well educated in politics,

I find it absolutely unruly how

0:22:340:22:37

she can even come out

with that, physically form it

0:22:370:22:39

in her mind.

0:22:390:22:40

APPLAUSE.

0:22:400:22:41

Moving on from that.

0:22:410:22:44

In terms of John Major,

obviously I've seen the speech that

0:22:440:22:52

he's done recently and what he's

saying is serious, but how can

0:22:530:22:58

we treat what he's saying is serious

because he back tracked.

0:22:580:23:01

Was it not him that, first of all,

put us in the Maastricht Treaty,

0:23:010:23:04

all those years ago,

and led the way.

0:23:040:23:06

And now he's back tracked and he's

trying to say that Theresa May's

0:23:060:23:10

wrong for what she's doing.

0:23:100:23:11

How do we know that Theresa May's

not going to change her mind?

0:23:110:23:15

And all this time that it's actually

taken us to get out of Brexit,

0:23:150:23:18

get out of the European Union,

which is something we voted for,

0:23:180:23:21

whether it's 1% over

what we need or what,

0:23:210:23:23

it doesn't matter

what the percentage is,

0:23:230:23:25

we voted, and that's that.

0:23:250:23:26

So in the time that it's

taking for us to get out

0:23:260:23:29

of the European Union,

how many people are going

0:23:290:23:31

to change their mind

between between now and then,

0:23:310:23:34

just like John Major did?

0:23:340:23:35

OK.

0:23:350:23:36

What do you think of John Major

endorsing the policy

0:23:360:23:38

of which you ran as Deputy Leader

of the Labour Party,

0:23:380:23:41

a second referendum before

everything is signed off?

0:23:410:23:43

I think John Major's views should be

taking absolutely seriously.

0:23:430:23:45

He was Prime Minister

of this country.

0:23:450:23:47

He was the man who started the peace

process that delivered eventually

0:23:470:23:50

the Good Friday Agreement.

0:23:500:23:52

He is someone whose views I think

are seriously put and I don't think

0:23:520:23:55

Nigel should be insulting to him

in the way in which

0:23:550:23:58

he was a minute ago.

0:23:580:23:59

Hang on, John Major insulted

17.4 million people,

0:23:590:24:01

I just insulted him.

0:24:010:24:04

No, he didn't.

0:24:040:24:05

APPLAUSE.

0:24:050:24:06

All right, the person

at the back there.

0:24:060:24:08

Yes.

0:24:080:24:09

Hold on a second.

0:24:090:24:10

Yes, the person there,

in the back row.

0:24:100:24:12

With the parties collapsing

and the divisions that

0:24:120:24:15

are in British politics

at the moment, is the time not right

0:24:150:24:18

for a new party to be formed

and for this party to actually do

0:24:180:24:22

what the British people voted for?

0:24:220:24:24

What kind of party?

0:24:240:24:25

Would that be a kind of Ukip kind

of party by any chance?

0:24:250:24:28

Oh no, not necessarily.

0:24:280:24:34

What?

0:24:340:24:35

Not necessarily.

0:24:350:24:36

But maybe people from all parties

could come together to sort out this

0:24:360:24:40

issue rather than the parties

fighting within each other

0:24:400:24:42

and against each other.

0:24:420:24:43

OK.

0:24:430:24:44

Let's just take a slightly

different point.

0:24:440:24:46

Peter, can we have your question.

0:24:460:24:47

Peter.

0:24:470:24:48

67% of Blackpool voted leave.

0:24:480:24:52

Has Jeremy Corbyn's U-turn betrayed

millions of its northern

0:24:520:24:54

Labour leave voters?

0:24:540:24:58

This is what you call his U-turn,

saying Labour would stay

0:24:580:25:01

in the customs union now?

0:25:010:25:02

Yeah.

0:25:020:25:03

We're in a strong Brexit area,

Owen Smith, what do you make

0:25:030:25:06

of Jeremy Corbyn and that question?

0:25:060:25:08

Well, I don't think it is a U-turn.

0:25:080:25:09

We said previously we thought

the customs union...

0:25:090:25:11

we said previously we thought

the customs union should be

0:25:110:25:14

an option that the Tories should be

keeping on the table.

0:25:140:25:17

And the major reason we thought

that was about the prosperity

0:25:170:25:19

of this country and the need for us

to trade with our biggest trading

0:25:190:25:23

partners, the European Union,

with whom we do almost half

0:25:230:25:25

of our trade and because taxes

and tariffs would damage the incomes

0:25:250:25:28

of people in the north-west

and elsewhere across Britain.

0:25:280:25:31

But also because it's the one way

in which we can try and guarantee

0:25:310:25:35

that we keep the border open

in Northern Ireland,

0:25:350:25:38

between Northern Ireland

and the Irish Republic,

0:25:380:25:42

that is so important

to the underpinning

0:25:420:25:43

of the Good Friday Agreement.

0:25:430:25:45

All Jeremy has said this week

is that we've now decided

0:25:450:25:48

that we will negotiate membership

of a customs union in order

0:25:480:25:52

to achieve those two important

things and that the Tories -

0:25:520:25:56

who've ruled out staying

in the customs union -

0:25:560:25:58

are therefore creating the problem

that they cannot solve at present,

0:25:580:26:03

of the border in Northern Ireland.

0:26:030:26:06

And, unfortunately,

on their own sums, are condemning

0:26:060:26:08

this part of the world,

if we had the no deal

0:26:080:26:12

that Nigel talked about,

to see a reduction in GDP.

0:26:120:26:15

See a reduction in

earnings here of 12%.

0:26:150:26:18

Now, nobody at the

election was told that.

0:26:180:26:21

Double it, double it,

make it 25%, make it 50%.

0:26:210:26:24

It's nonsense.

0:26:240:26:27

It's not my number, Nigel,

it's the Tory Government's.

0:26:270:26:30

It's the civil service.

0:26:300:26:33

What do you expect?

0:26:330:26:34

It's our independent

civil service

- oh, yeah.

0:26:340:26:36

Working for a Tory government.

0:26:360:26:37

Owen Smith, some people think

that this is a ploy by Labour to get

0:26:370:26:40

a vote in the House of Commons that

will unseat Theresa May?

0:26:400:26:43

If you get a vote on it,

like Ken Clarke might vote for it -

0:26:430:26:47

But it won't unseat

Theresa May, but..

0:26:470:26:48

Oh, really?

0:26:480:26:52

I think we could win a vote

in the House of Commons

0:26:520:26:55

on the customs union.

0:26:550:26:56

The Blairites have been very

successful in getting Jeremy -

0:26:560:26:58

through gritted teeth -

to say he'll let it be

0:26:580:27:01

the Labour Party's policy

for the time being.

0:27:010:27:03

So, sorry.

0:27:030:27:04

You would vote for it and -

I have voted for it

0:27:040:27:07

several times already.

0:27:070:27:09

So how would that not,

if she lost the majority

0:27:090:27:12

in the House of Commons,

how would that not unseat her?

0:27:120:27:14

Because governments don't fall

if they lose an amendment to a bill

0:27:140:27:17

in the House of Commons.

0:27:170:27:18

They fall if there's a vote

of confidence for the purpose

0:27:180:27:21

and actually it's more complicated

nowadays because we passed an Act

0:27:210:27:24

of Parliament designed to make

parliaments last five years.

0:27:240:27:26

Again, it's everybody making it more

exciting in the newspapers and it

0:27:260:27:29

claims that if the Government loses

one vote, it falls.

0:27:290:27:31

We've beaten them once already.

0:27:310:27:32

They were trying to stop

parliament having a vote

0:27:320:27:35

at all on the final deal.

0:27:350:27:36

We had a majority for that.

0:27:360:27:37

There were 11 traitors, rebels,

enemies of the people,

0:27:370:27:40

all that kind of thing,

and now we're going to have a vote.

0:27:400:27:43

There wasn't a murmur

the next day that the Prime

0:27:430:27:45

Minister should resign.

0:27:450:27:46

It didn't threaten the Government.

0:27:460:27:47

I had not put Corbyn

in Downing Street.

0:27:470:27:49

It's all nonsense.

0:27:490:27:50

of Parliament designed to make

parliaments last five years.

0:27:500:27:52

Again, it's everybody making it more

exciting in the newspapers and it

0:27:520:27:55

claims that if the Government loses

one vote, it falls.

0:27:550:27:58

We've beaten them once already.

0:27:580:27:59

They were trying to stop

parliament having a vote

0:27:590:28:01

at all on the final deal.

0:28:010:28:03

We had a majority for that.

0:28:030:28:04

There were 11 traitors, rebels,

enemies of the people,

0:28:040:28:06

all that kind of thing,

and now we're going to have a vote.

0:28:060:28:09

There wasn't a murmur

the next day that the Prime

0:28:090:28:12

Minister should resign.

0:28:120:28:13

It didn't threaten the Government.

0:28:130:28:14

I had not put Corbyn

in Downing Street.

0:28:140:28:16

Supposing she said it was

a vote of confidence?

0:28:160:28:18

Well, she'd be very unwise to do so,

and the Chief Whip has already

0:28:180:28:21

said they won't do that.

0:28:210:28:23

It will be just completely crazy.

0:28:230:28:24

Brave.

0:28:240:28:25

Too complicated.

0:28:250:28:26

It would be completely crazy.

0:28:260:28:27

I mean, this exacerbation

is being felt all over the country,

0:28:270:28:30

I think with this process.

0:28:300:28:31

I'm afraid I warn you,

we haven't started

0:28:310:28:33

the serious negotiations yet.

0:28:330:28:34

You're going to have years of this.

0:28:340:28:36

How we will maintain a public debate

about it, I've no idea.

0:28:360:28:39

You'll collapse exhausted

I shold think at the end.

0:28:390:28:41

In the modern world,

60% of our trade, if you count

0:28:410:28:43

all the EU deals that we're members

of, 60% of our trade

0:28:430:28:46

is in trade agreements.

0:28:460:28:47

In the modern world,

countries like ours,

0:28:470:28:49

trade with other countries

with trade treaties.

0:28:490:28:51

I'll deal with just that one point.

0:28:510:28:52

Trade treaties and that

involves agreeing some

0:28:520:28:54

mutually binding rules,

regulations, the basis

0:28:540:28:56

standards, the basis

on which you're going to trade.

0:28:560:28:59

An arrangement for settling disputes

and all the things that people seem

0:28:590:29:02

to think we're getting rid of.

0:29:020:29:03

If you leave all our present

trading arrangements,

0:29:030:29:05

you've got to negotiate others.

0:29:050:29:06

All this stuff that Boris produced

in the speech after the referendum,

0:29:060:29:09

about global Britain and how

the Americans and the Chinese

0:29:090:29:11

and the Indians and the Brazilians

are waiting to throw

0:29:110:29:14

open their doors -

come in Britain, no rules.

0:29:140:29:16

You make your mind up how,

what you want to sell.

0:29:160:29:19

No conditions.

0:29:190:29:20

This is all a fantasy world.

0:29:200:29:21

We are going to leave.

0:29:210:29:23

They are queueing up, Ken.

0:29:230:29:25

They are not queueing up.

0:29:250:29:27

Countries all over the world

are queueing up to talk to us.

0:29:270:29:30

I've been involved

in trade negotiations.

0:29:300:29:32

I've been in business, too.

0:29:320:29:33

If you think you're going to get

a quick trade deal with China...

0:29:330:29:36

They're queueing.

0:29:360:29:37

..or with the United States,

you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

0:29:370:29:40

Negative.

0:29:400:29:41

It has to be done seriously.

0:29:410:29:43

Your Foreign Secretary is living

in cloud cuckoo land?

0:29:430:29:45

He certainly keeps coming up

with a lot of rather comic remarks,

0:29:450:29:48

I must say, which Boris

is very good at.

0:29:480:29:50

APPLAUSE.

0:29:500:29:52

Boris and Nigel are not frightfully

good on the way in which the modern

0:29:520:29:55

globalised economy works

and thousands and thousands

0:29:550:29:57

of jobs in this country

and our future prosperity depend

0:29:570:29:59

on being successful

in the globalised economy.

0:29:590:30:05

I have to stop you,

because I want to hear

0:30:050:30:07

from the gentleman up there.

0:30:070:30:09

Yes, you.

0:30:090:30:10

I'd just like to say to Ken,

you know it is a comic remark

0:30:100:30:13

telling people who voted Leave

that they didn't know

0:30:130:30:15

what they were voting for.

0:30:150:30:16

And just in response to the lady

down there, I'd like to ask,

0:30:160:30:19

what did you vote for?

0:30:190:30:21

Did you vote for an EU army?

0:30:210:30:22

Did you vote for Turkey

to join the EU?

0:30:220:30:24

Did you vote for an EU superstate,

an ever expanding EU state?

0:30:240:30:27

What did you vote for?

0:30:270:30:30

What kind of Remain did you want?

0:30:300:30:33

Who are you talking

to, the lady here?

0:30:330:30:35

All right, a brief answer.

0:30:350:30:37

I was going to ask you on the panel

but you can do it from there.

0:30:370:30:41

Keep it brief, if you would,

because we want to move on.

0:30:410:30:44

Of course.

0:30:440:30:46

I voted to Remain.

0:30:460:30:46

I didn't vote for Turkey,

I didn't vote for all those things

0:30:460:30:49

because it wasn't an option.

0:30:490:30:50

I voted Remain because I thought

that that's the best option for this

0:30:500:30:53

country in terms of its trade deal,

in terms of other things.

0:30:530:30:58

And I think one of the major

reasons people voted Leave

0:30:580:31:02

was because of the migration issue

and the people movement issue.

0:31:020:31:05

But we are not part of the Schengen

arrangement, so actually

0:31:050:31:08

we have the right to empower

ourselves not to have the level

0:31:080:31:12

of immigration that was causing

quite as much concern as it was.

0:31:120:31:16

So we have that power

within our own hands anyway.

0:31:160:31:19

APPLAUSE

0:31:190:31:22

And the woman in the fourth row.

0:31:220:31:23

Yes, you.

0:31:230:31:26

Be brief if you would because we

must move onto another point.

0:31:260:31:29

I just don't understand why

we are discussing another vote.

0:31:290:31:31

It's not uncommon that politicians,

you know, don't tell 100%

0:31:310:31:34

of the truth all the time.

0:31:340:31:36

At a time where there's

so much anxiety...

0:31:360:31:38

Really?

0:31:380:31:40

At a time where there's so much

anxiety going round and so much fear

0:31:400:31:46

over what's going to become

of the future, do not put

0:31:460:31:49

fear into democracy.

0:31:490:31:49

We voted for independence.

0:31:490:31:50

We might not have known the total

ins and outs of what it was,

0:31:500:31:54

we voted for independence.

0:31:540:31:56

Don't then put fear into democracy.

0:31:560:31:58

The people voted

for what they wanted,

0:31:580:32:00

and don't remove that

power from the people.

0:32:000:32:02

APPLAUSE

0:32:020:32:05

Hang on.

0:32:050:32:07

So you trust Parliament to get it

right, to interpret what you saw

0:32:070:32:10

as the vote on Brexit?

0:32:100:32:14

I hope Parliament will get it right.

0:32:140:32:16

I wasn't of age to vote

but I would have voted Remain.

0:32:160:32:19

However, the public body

as a whole voted to leave.

0:32:190:32:22

I hope Parliament will get it right

but I don't think sacrificing

0:32:220:32:26

democracy and taking away that power

that people were given,

0:32:260:32:29

that we fought so hard for,

to change our minds is the right

0:32:290:32:32

thing to do.

0:32:320:32:35

Michelle, what do you make

of the point about Corbyn's U-turn,

0:32:350:32:37

as he put it, betraying northern

Labour, places like Blackpool

0:32:370:32:41

that voted 67% Brexit?

0:32:410:32:43

Yeah, I completely agree,

I think it is a betrayal.

0:32:430:32:47

I think that people voted

to leave the European Union.

0:32:470:32:52

And when we're talking

about staying in a customs union,

0:32:520:32:55

which doesn't even exist

at the moment, we want to create

0:32:550:32:57

our own trade deals.

0:32:570:33:03

We cannot do that in

that customs union.

0:33:030:33:05

So the first point,

absolutely it is a betrayal

0:33:050:33:07

of what we voted for.

0:33:070:33:08

And to the second point, is it time

for a new party, absolutely.

0:33:080:33:12

I am 100% politically

homeless at the moment.

0:33:120:33:14

I was in the last election,

which is why I ran myself

0:33:140:33:16

as an independent.

0:33:160:33:18

And I feel even more so like that,

and I know there is an awful lot

0:33:180:33:22

of people like me that do not have

anyone to vote for at all.

0:33:220:33:26

APPLAUSE

0:33:260:33:32

Radzi, are you behind Corbyn

on this Labour policy?

0:33:320:33:34

It's just a point on Corbyn

generally, which for me is that he's

0:33:340:33:40

damned if he does and he's damned

if he doesn't.

0:33:400:33:42

And I feel that for me,

Jeremy Corbyn over the last two

0:33:420:33:45

years has had to endure and shoulder

a sluice of propaganda.

0:33:450:33:48

Whether it is about his suit,

the national anthem,

0:33:480:33:52

his friends in Hezbollah and Hamas.

0:33:520:33:55

AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS.

0:33:550:33:57

That might be your opinion,

but for me, the way he's dealt

0:33:570:34:00

with it with honour,

with dignity and nobility,

0:34:000:34:02

that is what real leadership is.

0:34:020:34:08

I think we'll move on.

0:34:080:34:10

Can I make a quick point on that?

0:34:100:34:12

Very quick.

0:34:120:34:13

Because I know a lot about forming

new political parties and how

0:34:130:34:16

difficult it can be.

0:34:160:34:17

Three or four times!

0:34:170:34:18

Well, well...

0:34:180:34:19

But you know, Ukip was a phenomenon.

0:34:190:34:20

Ukip draw votes.

0:34:200:34:23

You said a quick point.

0:34:230:34:24

The real answer is, yes, Corbyn has

betrayed 4 million Brexit voters,

0:34:240:34:28

but the really interesting question,

the lady at the back,

0:34:280:34:31

if Brexit gets betrayed

there will be a new coming together

0:34:310:34:36

and a new party in British politics,

and of that I've got

0:34:360:34:39

no doubt whatsoever.

0:34:390:34:41

It's a taster!

0:34:410:34:46

We'll move on.

0:34:460:34:48

Just to say, Question Time

is going to be in London,

0:34:480:34:50

in Westminster next week.

0:34:500:34:52

And after that we are going to be

in Dover, the port of Dover.

0:34:520:34:55

If you want to come, on the screen

are the details of how to apply.

0:34:550:34:59

I'll give them,

as always, at the end.

0:34:590:35:01

But let's change subject now

and come to something

0:35:010:35:03

from Carol Henschel,

please, let's have your question.

0:35:030:35:08

Is it fair that on two occasions

planning permission to frack this

0:35:080:35:12

area was not approved

by the Council, and the

0:35:120:35:15

government overruled us?

0:35:150:35:19

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:35:190:35:27

Well, I can see it's

a popular question and it's

0:35:280:35:30

a very pertinent one here.

0:35:300:35:31

On the way into Blackpool

there are great signs on the roads

0:35:310:35:35

protesting against fracking,

and it's a sort of case test,

0:35:350:35:37

really, of whether the whole

industry of fracking should

0:35:370:35:39

get the go-ahead.

0:35:390:35:41

If it doesn't get

the go-ahead elsewhere,

0:35:410:35:43

should it get the go-ahead

here, and is it fair?

0:35:430:35:46

Michelle Dewberry, what do you make

of local people saying,

0:35:460:35:49

"We don't want it"

and being overruled?

0:35:490:35:53

I think fracking, for whatever

reason, it is an industry that has

0:35:530:35:57

completely failed to win over people

and to convince people

0:35:570:36:01

of their arguments.

0:36:010:36:03

I think people are

concerned about safety.

0:36:030:36:07

People don't want, whether it's

earthquakes and big firms denying

0:36:070:36:12

all knowledge and then admitting

down the line maybe it is.

0:36:120:36:15

It is a real safety concern,

and until those safety concerns

0:36:150:36:19

are properly addressed and people

understand what's going on,

0:36:190:36:24

until that point is reached,

we've got a problem.

0:36:240:36:26

And I don't understand

what it's going to take,

0:36:260:36:29

because it hasn't yet happened that

that industry has managed

0:36:290:36:32

to get people bought

into what they are doing

0:36:320:36:34

and the benefits of it and addressed

their real safety concerns.

0:36:340:36:37

So do you think it's

time will come when it's

0:36:370:36:40

being handled more dexterously?

0:36:400:36:44

Or do you think there are real

dangers and risks in it,

0:36:440:36:47

like local people here have opined?

0:36:470:36:49

I think it's something

that is still not understood enough

0:36:490:36:53

to the degree where we can make

a proper informed decision about it.

0:36:530:36:57

And I don't quite understand why.

0:36:570:36:58

It's a very unpopular

industry, and I understand

0:36:580:37:00

people's concerns here.

0:37:000:37:02

If it was in my back garden I'd have

concerns about it as well.

0:37:020:37:06

But I just think that the industry

needs to work closely

0:37:060:37:10

with government regulations

and residents to properly

0:37:100:37:12

communicate what it's doing

and to reassure those safety

0:37:120:37:15

concerns, if it wants

to get the go-ahead.

0:37:150:37:19

Nigel Farage, do you think it's

right of government to overrule

0:37:190:37:21

local opinion on this?

0:37:210:37:24

It's right for government to have

concerns, and Michelle's point

0:37:240:37:27

about a very effective

lobby against fracking.

0:37:270:37:30

They've been very good at it.

0:37:300:37:31

They've been very good at putting

the fear of God into people.

0:37:310:37:34

Look, no form of extractive

industry doesn't bring some

0:37:340:37:36

degree of risk with it,

whether its coal mining,

0:37:360:37:39

whatever it may be.

0:37:390:37:40

We've been fracking since the 1950s.

0:37:400:37:43

America's done more

of it than we've done.

0:37:430:37:45

Even we've done a bit

of fracking in this country.

0:37:450:37:47

What you have in this part

of England is the most phenomenal

0:37:470:37:51

reserves of natural gas.

0:37:510:37:55

Exploited carefully and sensibly it

would not leave great

0:37:550:37:59

scars on the landscape,

like coal mining did in many areas,

0:37:590:38:03

and it would revolutionise

the economy of the north-west

0:38:030:38:06

of England by providing tens

of thousands of well-paid jobs.

0:38:060:38:08

We must be mad...

0:38:080:38:11

BOOING

0:38:110:38:16

We must be mad to look

a gift horse in the mouth.

0:38:160:38:19

Mad.

0:38:190:38:20

So why is it so unpopular?

0:38:200:38:21

It's unpopular because people don't

like things in their back yard,

0:38:210:38:24

obviously, and because

the campaign's been

0:38:240:38:25

effective against it.

0:38:250:38:26

But it works.

0:38:260:38:28

There's an interesting parallel

between the will of the people vote.

0:38:280:38:33

The will of the people was correct

on one and not on the other.

0:38:330:38:37

Mr Farage, £39 billion

is a one-off line.

0:38:370:38:41

How many council houses can

you buy for £39 billion?

0:38:410:38:47

If people here want it, that's fine.

0:38:470:38:49

If they have a referendum

on it, they can decide.

0:38:490:38:51

That's fine.

0:38:510:38:52

All I'm saying is...

0:38:520:38:53

Well, why not?

0:38:530:38:54

Well, that shows you how we can

modernise our democracy

0:38:540:38:57

at local level, doesn't it?

0:38:570:38:58

Ken Clarke.

0:38:580:38:59

Well, an astonishing

event has taken place.

0:38:590:39:01

I entirely agree with Nigel Farage.

0:39:010:39:03

Don't make it a habit, Ken.

0:39:030:39:08

Nigel, the first time ever

we are in total agreement

0:39:080:39:12

and you got loudly booed

by the audience for

0:39:120:39:14

giving the answer.

0:39:140:39:15

So my boos were a little

more restrained.

0:39:150:39:17

Why are you in favour?

0:39:170:39:19

Well, we have had decades

of fracking, and all this

0:39:190:39:23

campaigning about all the dreadful

things that are supposed to happen,

0:39:230:39:27

your water will be poisoned,

you'll have earthquakes

0:39:270:39:29

and all the rest of it...

0:39:290:39:31

They did have earthquakes.

0:39:310:39:32

The tremor in Blackpool was not

detectable by a human

0:39:320:39:36

being on the surface.

0:39:360:39:38

It was a very low-level tremor.

0:39:380:39:40

All right, we'll check this.

0:39:400:39:44

It was described as an earthquake

by campaigners but it wasn't.

0:39:440:39:47

Let's just ask.

0:39:470:39:48

Did any of you feel the tremors?

0:39:480:39:50

Put your hands up if you did.

0:39:500:39:52

Well, the National Geological Survey

would be very surprised

0:39:520:39:54

by your sensitivity.

0:39:540:39:56

These are very sensitive people.

0:39:560:39:58

The person with the coloured

sleeve at the back.

0:39:580:40:00

Yes, you.

0:40:000:40:02

There is a lot of people peddling

mistruths and misinformation,

0:40:020:40:05

and Nigel is a perfect example

of how he obviously hasn't read up,

0:40:050:40:09

he doesn't know the facts,

and I'm absolutely amazed that

0:40:090:40:12

Ken Clarke doesn't either.

0:40:120:40:14

I would have really liked to have

thought that you could have stopped

0:40:140:40:17

and read your facts about fracking

coming to this area.

0:40:170:40:20

APPLAUSE

0:40:200:40:23

Why are you against fracking?

0:40:230:40:27

My main reason is a bit different

from the other locals,

0:40:270:40:29

because I disagree with fracking

because it's burning of fossil fuel,

0:40:290:40:32

and I'm so against that,

with the environment issues that

0:40:320:40:35

are pertinent at the moment.

0:40:350:40:38

What are we thinking,

digging up more fossil fuels?

0:40:380:40:42

But as well as that,

it's the local people.

0:40:420:40:44

And the question which was asked,

which you haven't really answered,

0:40:440:40:47

is what about the government

overturning the will

0:40:470:40:49

of local people?

0:40:490:40:50

APPLAUSE

0:40:500:40:54

There are many things that...

0:40:540:40:55

Of course we have a good

local planning system,

0:40:550:40:58

but in big things of national

importance the government must

0:40:580:41:01

have a role, particularly nowadays.

0:41:010:41:03

If Isombard Kingdom Brunel decided

he wanted to build a railway

0:41:030:41:07

line from London to Bristol today,

his advisers will tell him he'd be

0:41:070:41:12

mad going through the planning

system because there'd be vast

0:41:120:41:15

opposition all way along the line,

everybody would be opposed to it.

0:41:150:41:18

The government had

to let him do that.

0:41:180:41:21

It's called HS2.

0:41:210:41:23

It's called HS2.

0:41:230:41:23

Because they get fought by local

people, but somebody somewhere has

0:41:230:41:28

got to provide the route

for major infrastructure projects.

0:41:280:41:31

We do need runways at airports,

we do need to use our own

0:41:310:41:34

oil and gas reserves.

0:41:340:41:38

So what account do you

take of local opinion?

0:41:380:41:40

Anything, or none?

0:41:400:41:41

You take account of local opinion.

0:41:410:41:43

And then ignore it?

0:41:430:41:44

You don't ignore it,

but if in fact the national interest

0:41:440:41:47

outweighs that and if the local

opinion is just rejecting the advice

0:41:470:41:52

of, I already mentioned

the National Geological Survey,

0:41:520:41:54

the scientific world,

about whether there are risks

0:41:540:41:57

involved in fracking or not,

I think a government is entitled

0:41:570:42:00

to say in the national

interest we're going ahead.

0:42:000:42:03

Radzi.

0:42:030:42:04

I could not be more opposed to Ken

and Nigel, and thank you very much

0:42:040:42:08

at the back for raising that point

about the lack of fossil fuels.

0:42:080:42:11

We talk about well blowouts, we talk

about it is carbon intensive,

0:42:110:42:14

we talk about the fact that

it's water intensive.

0:42:140:42:16

But the bigger issue is that

if we are serious about protecting

0:42:160:42:19

this blue marble that we are on,

we need to move away

0:42:190:42:21

from fossil fuels and actually

embrace renewable energy.

0:42:210:42:23

In this area, there's a lot of wind.

0:42:230:42:25

Why don't we use it?

0:42:250:42:26

APPLAUSE

0:42:260:42:30

Hold on, it's Owen's turn.

0:42:300:42:32

The truth is Nigel

is completely wrong.

0:42:320:42:34

The benefits of fracking

are totally overblown.

0:42:340:42:36

The volume of jobs will be tiny.

0:42:360:42:42

The reserves that we have are much

less than America or France or some

0:42:420:42:45

of the other places where they have

shale gas to frack.

0:42:450:42:48

And in some of those places,

like France, they've

0:42:480:42:50

decided not to go after it.

0:42:500:42:52

Why did we have the Tories

overruling local people?

0:42:520:42:56

Because they decided, around

the time of getting elected in 2010,

0:42:560:42:59

that it was a good idea for them

to try and mimic the States,

0:42:590:43:03

where they could sell to people

as part of their election platform

0:43:030:43:06

that they were going to unveil this

great new Industrial Revolution

0:43:060:43:09

and it was going to produce jobs

and cheap, free energy,

0:43:090:43:11

practically, in this country.

0:43:110:43:13

All a load of rubbish.

0:43:130:43:14

The other thing they've lied

to people about is their suggestion

0:43:140:43:17

that local people and local

decisions will be given primacy.

0:43:170:43:20

That clearly hasn't happened here.

0:43:200:43:24

It should have happened,

and if it had happened we wouldn't

0:43:240:43:26

have the fracking in Blackpool.

0:43:260:43:28

It wouldn't happen under

a Labour government.

0:43:280:43:30

APPLAUSE

0:43:300:43:32

The person there.

0:43:320:43:40

I'd just like to say whatever

the jobs are or the economic

0:43:420:43:45

impacts, what Radzi said before

about the greenhouse

0:43:450:43:47

gases produced by this, it doesn't

matter what jobs you've got,

0:43:470:43:49

what money you've got when we're

all dead from global warming.

0:43:490:43:52

That is definitely the main point.

0:43:520:43:54

The German people have had

to shut down nuclear power plants

0:43:540:43:56

because they didn't like them,

despite the fact that greenhouse gas

0:43:560:43:59

wise it's completely clean.

0:43:590:44:00

And new coal-fired power

stations all over Germany.

0:44:000:44:03

And a quarter of the energy

we are using in Britain

0:44:030:44:06

today has come from wind,

so why haven't the Tories

0:44:060:44:08

invested in wind power?

0:44:080:44:16

Tonight more than ever emphasises

the fact of the reliance on gas.

0:44:320:44:35

Everyone in this room is going to go

home tonight and put their gas

0:44:350:44:38

central heating on.

0:44:380:44:39

A wind turbine is not

going to heat your house.

0:44:390:44:41

And it was a Labour Party, in 2008,

that actually got the ball rolling

0:44:410:44:45

on shale gas and issued

the exploratory drilling licences.

0:44:450:44:51

So you want to see it happen.

Will

be good for the local economy,

0:44:510:44:59

pumping in billions of pounds. This

is under British regulations, and

0:44:590:45:07

British Gas engineers, the best in

the world. We will do it right.

0:45:070:45:13

Brief point.

Would the decision have

beenover turned in the same way if

0:45:130:45:18

the fracking was taking place south

of Watford?

OK.

0:45:180:45:25

APPLAUSE

That's a good wonder. We will go on.

0:45:270:45:29

I don't know how much time we have

got. We will take another question

0:45:290:45:33

from Helen Wright. Pert nept to

everybody watching tonight?

Is the

0:45:330:45:38

beast from the east more like

hysteria from Siberia and should

0:45:380:45:43

bosses expect their staff to turn up

at work?

OK. What is Labour's view

0:45:430:45:49

on people turning up to work? There

are issues about whether you get

0:45:490:45:53

paid or holiday leave. What happens

if you can't get to work or are we

0:45:530:45:57

making a fuss about the snow?

I'm in

this fa of people turning up to

0:45:570:46:01

work. We do in this country make an

enormous fuss about the snow. We

0:46:010:46:04

have heard this evening a number of

people have died as a result of the

0:46:040:46:09

weather tonight today. I don't think

it's been completely overblown this

0:46:090:46:12

time. Some of the scenes in south

Wales, where I'm from, looked

0:46:120:46:17

treacherous this evening. Clearly,

some of the public services that

0:46:170:46:20

have been closed today, schools etc,

I think that is normally sensible.

0:46:200:46:24

Generally, I think we do tend to

make a bit too much of a bit of snow

0:46:240:46:29

and quite often people probably

could just about get into work. If

0:46:290:46:33

they tried a bit harder.

I'm a

believer in common sense. I think

0:46:330:46:38

that employers -

How do you know

what common sense is, I've never

0:46:380:46:43

understood the expression. What

everybody thinks, what you think or

0:46:430:46:48

when everybody agrees to you.

I

speak common sense. If you listen to

0:46:480:46:51

me. Anything I said, that's the

best.

0:46:510:46:54

APPLAUSE

That's what I thought you Meant.

0:46:540:46:56

Exactly. As an employer you need to

implement common sense. It makes no

0:46:560:47:01

sense if a job can be done remotely,

if a job is not essential to be done

0:47:010:47:05

that day, then you should be

applying common sense to your

0:47:050:47:10

employees. I think sometimes we do

go over the top too quickly. When we

0:47:100:47:15

got notifify case of the beast from

the east, we were already talking

0:47:150:47:20

about train cancellations and things

like that. At that point in time it

0:47:200:47:26

was a... I was doing personal

training and they were cancelling

0:47:260:47:30

trains. It wasn't that bad at the

beginning. Sometimes we don't need

0:47:300:47:33

to be so quick to cancel everything

and worry just apply your common

0:47:330:47:37

sense is my advice.

A serious point

I'm representing myself. I work for

0:47:370:47:43

a living. When I was a child my

money fundamentally brought me and

0:47:430:47:47

my sister up. One of the biggest

issues is when school gets cancelled

0:47:470:47:51

someone has to look after me. One

big consideration for me is that

0:47:510:47:54

whilst we could apply common sense,

we need to consider parents and who

0:47:540:47:58

will look after their children if

they are going to be home alone.

OK.

0:47:580:48:02

APPLAUSE

The woman there. Yes.

People are

0:48:020:48:04

saying that it's not a huge issue

and it's a little thing, it is a

0:48:040:48:08

huge issue for the lowest earners in

society who struggle to heat their

0:48:080:48:15

home and issue for the homeless and

the edderly. It's an insult.

If we

0:48:150:48:22

had cheap gas as opposed to wind

energy they might be able to heat

0:48:220:48:26

their homes. They were cancelling

trains before the snow fell. Closing

0:48:260:48:32

schools when there was no snow on

the ground but the threat it might

0:48:320:48:35

come and used by people as an excuse

not to go to work. Frankly, this

0:48:350:48:40

Storm Emma tonight could dump 18

inches of snow over parts of south

0:48:400:48:45

Wales and the south-west. Common

sense dictates the roads will be

0:48:450:48:49

closed. I think we should do our

best when it snows or it is windy,

0:48:490:48:53

rather than listen to this

hysterical nonsense. Red warnings

0:48:530:48:58

and amber warnings. It's all over

the top. We should be a bit more

0:48:580:49:02

stoic. A bit more British and jolly

well get on with life.

OK. Ken

0:49:020:49:06

Clarke.

We used to have a lot more

snow in winter I think. Not only my

0:49:060:49:12

recollection I think I accurately

recall. Events like today, not quite

0:49:120:49:16

so rare a few years ago. I do think

we are getting over excited. I was

0:49:160:49:22

on this programme, I was watching

television news to see what had

0:49:220:49:25

happened today, I gave up on the BBC

News Channel when their first

0:49:250:49:29

quarter of an hour of the programme

was devoted to snow in various parts

0:49:290:49:33

of the country. And I think there

are many people who feel themselves

0:49:330:49:41

under a moral obligation to get to

work in the snow or the emergency

0:49:410:49:45

services, people working in the

healthcare field and so on. I think

0:49:450:49:49

the ordinary person should feel an

obligation to get to work if it's

0:49:490:49:55

reasonably sensible to expect them

to do so. They shouldn't risk their

0:49:550:49:58

lives or anything of that kind.

We've all got here this evening. We

0:49:580:50:02

don't deserve medals for it. It was

snowing when I started my journey.

0:50:020:50:07

It wasn't the pleasant way to

travel.

You may not get home!

What

0:50:070:50:11

we should not start doing is closing

down public services because the

0:50:110:50:16

weather forecast is bad. We should

wait for the snow to arrive before

0:50:160:50:20

people start taking time off work.

A

couple of points. We will go on to

0:50:200:50:24

another question. You at the back.

Did the lady who called it hysteria

0:50:240:50:28

in Siberia was absolutely right. I

take the point in south Wales, in

0:50:280:50:32

Scotland, yes, snow is very bad

indeed. Here in the north-west not

0:50:320:50:35

at all. People in the local

supermarket buying up toilet paper

0:50:350:50:41

on Monday. Not one flake of

snowdroped.

We have all become snow

0:50:410:50:47

flakes. That's the problem, isn't

it!

Brexit has changed the political

0:50:470:50:53

atmosphere.

I love that toilet

paper. Not baked beans. Back to this

0:50:530:50:57

part of the world though and to the

whole, the problems of Blackpool and

0:50:570:51:01

the area around. A question from

deck can a Terrace.

How do we

0:51:010:51:08

encourage more investment in

Blackpool to ensure we keep young

0:51:080:51:11

people's talent and skills in their

hometown?

It should be said

0:51:110:51:15

Blackpool have problems. Problems

with mental health. Problems in the

0:51:150:51:18

NHS. It has an economy that has

fallen. The fourth most deprived

0:51:180:51:24

local authority on almost every

count. It's a part of the country

0:51:240:51:28

that's poorer than the parts around

it. Who would like to start on this?

0:51:280:51:32

Ken Clarke. You were a northern

powerhouse man. Or part of that

0:51:320:51:37

government.

Over the years there has

been regional policies.

How do you

0:51:370:51:43

encourage investment in in a place

like this

Places like this key

0:51:430:51:47

things we next neglected for too

long. Skills training, education,

0:51:470:51:52

standards achieving good standards

of education. More important in

0:51:520:51:56

areas which are having economic

difficulty than the prosperous areas

0:51:560:52:00

elsewhere. And how actually can the

Government relate to key sectors of

0:52:000:52:06

industry in a way that properly and

sensibly promotes their rapid

0:52:060:52:11

growth. We haven't really solved it.

I mean, the reason for the present

0:52:110:52:15

anger in politics is we have had,

until the financial crash came, the

0:52:150:52:21

greed of the bankers and regulators.

We had a good long time when we

0:52:210:52:25

thought we were getting richer and

better. Whole lots of people were

0:52:250:52:29

left behind and the economy was

changing. In some places the old

0:52:290:52:35

industries, steel and so on were

going. In Blackpool the old basis

0:52:350:52:38

for the economy was going. We have

to find a new one.

0:52:380:52:45

to find a new one. Industrial

strategies are a great thing. We see

0:52:450:52:47

lots of it now. We don't yet know,

to be honest, exactly how to go to a

0:52:470:52:54

town whose old economic base has

weakened and quickly be begin to

0:52:540:53:00

inject what is needed. Modern

employment is needed in Blackpool.

0:53:000:53:05

The task for government is how to

make sure to do that more quickly

0:53:050:53:08

than we have in recent years.

You

sir.

25 years ago, in Blackpool, we

0:53:080:53:16

had two world renowned manufacturing

companies. TVR cars, based north of

0:53:160:53:22

Blackpool.

0:53:220:53:29

Blackpool. Also a coaches company.

They were two of the largest

0:53:290:53:32

employers in this town.

They have

gone.

They have gone.

What is your

0:53:320:53:36

view about what should happen?

What

should happen. I think that the -

0:53:360:53:43

the government seaside -

Coastal

policy.

The coastal policy. We've

0:53:430:53:48

not heard very much apart from sea

defences.

You sir, quickly. We have

0:53:480:53:52

a few minutes.

We may have some of

the problems that Ken Clarke

0:53:520:53:56

outlined in Blackpool. We have got a

wonderful town and a place that

0:53:560:54:01

gives millions and millions of

people hours of fun. Millions of

0:54:010:54:06

people will still come back to

Blackpool in their droves.

Nigel

0:54:060:54:10

Farage.

Let's get back our waters

and the fish that swim in our seas.

0:54:100:54:17

That will benefit the north-west

considerably.

0:54:170:54:22

Secondly, you know, you should never

just tell an audience

0:54:220:54:24

what you think they want to hear,

tell them what you really think.

0:54:240:54:27

You're looking a gift

horse in the mouth with

0:54:270:54:31

the shale gas industry.

0:54:310:54:32

It will revolutionise

the economy of this area.

0:54:320:54:34

I'm sorry you don't like it.

0:54:340:54:36

Radzi Chanyanganya.

0:54:360:54:38

I come from Wolverhampton,

I think very similar problems

0:54:380:54:44

in Wolverhampton which happen

in Blackpool, and one

0:54:440:54:46

of the big ones in education.

0:54:460:54:50

I think if you don't educate people,

peole don't feel like

0:54:500:54:53

they have an opportunity to succeed.

0:54:530:54:54

I happen to think I have the best

mother on the planet.

0:54:540:54:57

She's instilled within me a belief

I can do anything I put my mind to.

0:54:570:55:01

Whatever we can do to give young

people that belief in themselves,

0:55:010:55:04

I think that's what will make

Blackpool prosper.

0:55:040:55:06

The woman here,

briefly if you would.

0:55:060:55:07

Hi, a major problem

in Blackpool is education.

0:55:070:55:12

10% in the country, our education,

our schools are failing.

0:55:120:55:17

How can we, when we are

all being academised,

0:55:170:55:20

work towards giving our children

a greater education?

0:55:200:55:24

OK, we are of course in an academy

here as it happens in Blackpool.

0:55:240:55:27

Yes, we are.

0:55:270:55:28

Michelle, what do you think?

0:55:280:55:29

First of all, I think Brexit

presents a great opportunity.

0:55:290:55:32

We're taking a lot of power back

from Brussels, hopefully.

0:55:320:55:40

I would like to see,

instead of all that power going

0:55:440:55:47

into London, I would like to see

proper devolution so that actual

0:55:470:55:50

northern place cans create

prosperity amongst themselves

0:55:500:55:57

I'm from Hull, I've had many,

many be a good girls

0:55:570:56:00

weekend out in Blackpool.

0:56:000:56:02

It was wonderful.

0:56:020:56:02

I've got wonderful memories.

0:56:020:56:03

Blackpool should be

in a position to prosper.

0:56:030:56:05

When we talk about education,

I feel very strongly about this.

0:56:050:56:11

I work with a group of technical

schools, called UTCs,

0:56:110:56:13

we join up with employers

with schools and we have

0:56:130:56:15

employer-led curriculums

and what we try to do is create

0:56:150:56:19

a workforce that's ready and right

for the local economy,

0:56:190:56:22

and also what you should be working

with young people as well

0:56:220:56:25

to stimulate entrepreneurialism.

0:56:250:56:28

Giving them that belief they can

create their own opportunity as well

0:56:280:56:31

where ever they live.

0:56:310:56:32

Owen Smith, I've to ask

you to be brief, I'm afraid.

0:56:320:56:35

Governments have to recognise it's

got a responsibility

0:56:350:56:37

to fix these problems.

0:56:370:56:42

Instead of cutting back public

services and cutting back

0:56:420:56:44

investment, we've got

to enausterity, which has completely

0:56:440:56:46

failed and invest once

more in our communities.

0:56:460:56:48

How would it help Blackpool?

0:56:480:56:50

We should have a regional

investment structure,

0:56:500:56:52

a banking structure that puts money,

government money, into areas,

0:56:520:56:55

like Blackpool, in areas like south

Wales, the ex-industrial areas

0:56:550:56:58

of this country.

0:56:580:56:59

Recognise the skills that

are here in manufacturing.

0:56:590:57:01

Capitalise on that with a real

active industrial strategy that

0:57:010:57:09

pushes jobs and incentivises

the public sector and private-sector

0:57:100:57:13

to invest and invest in skills.

0:57:130:57:14

Young people.

0:57:140:57:15

Don't cut back spending on schools

or cut back spending on university

0:57:150:57:18

education or cut back on support

for schools generally.

0:57:180:57:20

Invest in our young people.

0:57:200:57:22

That's the secret, and we've seen

the reverse of that from the Tories

0:57:220:57:25

under the last seven years.

0:57:250:57:26

We've got to get back

to investing in the people

0:57:260:57:29

in all of our communities.

0:57:290:57:30

APPLAUSE.

0:57:300:57:31

Our hour is up, I'm afraid.

0:57:310:57:33

Apologies to those

who have your hands up.

0:57:330:57:38

But our time is up, we have is stop.

0:57:380:57:40

We're going to be in Westminster

next Thursday with Question Time.

0:57:400:57:42

We have the International Trade

Secretary Liam Fox on the panel,

0:57:420:57:50

George the Poet and the Bake Off

judge Prue Leith on that panel.

0:57:500:57:53

The week after we're going to be

in the port of Dover and that's

0:57:530:57:56

a suitable place to be,

it marks one year to go

0:57:560:57:59

until the UK leaves the EU.

0:57:590:58:00

I don't know if we'll be

talking about the EU

0:58:000:58:03

again, but maybe we will.

0:58:030:58:04

Call 0330 123 99 88 if you would

like to come to either

0:58:040:58:07

of those two programmes.

0:58:070:58:08

On the screen is the address,

the website, if you want

0:58:080:58:11

to go to that instead.

0:58:110:58:12

And if you want to talk

about the things we've been

0:58:120:58:15

talking about tonight,

there's this excellent continuation

0:58:150:58:16

on Question Time Extra Time

with Adrian Chiles on 5 Live,

0:58:160:58:19

now on the radio.

0:58:190:58:20

You can also watch it

by pushing the Red Button.

0:58:200:58:22

You can watch it on the BBC iPlayer.

0:58:220:58:24

So I hope you'll be able to do that.

0:58:240:58:27

My thanks to this panel

and to all of you -

0:58:270:58:30

I was going to say who made it

through the snow, but there hasn't

0:58:300:58:34

been any snow in Blackpool.

0:58:340:58:35

But to all of you who came

here tonight to take part in this

0:58:350:58:38

edition of Question Time.

0:58:380:58:39

Until next Thursday, good night.

0:58:390:58:41

APPLAUSE

0:58:410:58:47

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Blackpool. Panellists include Ken Clarke MP, former chancellor of the exchequer and minister under three successive Conservative prime ministers and currently the father of the House of Commons, Owen Smith MP, shadow secretary of state for Northern Ireland who challenged Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of the Labour Party, Nigel Farage MEP, former leader of UKIP, Michelle Dewberry, businesswoman and former winner of the BBC's The Apprentice, and Radzi Chanyanganya, presenter of Blue Peter, the Olympics and Cannonball.