02/09/2014 Scotland 2014

it is not Better Together, it is closer than ever, so says the First

Minister Alex Salmond, and he will be here in the studio tonight.

The Yes campaign got a real boost today with a YouGov poll

showing the gap between Yes and No voters narrower than ever.

But they are still six points behind.

We've yet to see a poll that shows a majority in favour of independence.

So have Yes Scotland really got the momentum they need

I will be talking live in the studio with First Minister Alex Salmond.

On the day the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has said

his proposals for a independent Scotland would be "catastrophic".

And the Treasury's permanent secretary have admitted they are

making plans for the possibility of a Yes vote.

I'll be talking to the First Minister in a few minutes

or as he is known in the Better Together advert

from last week, "that guy off the telly".

But first here is a quick look at where the yes campaign has got to

with just over two weeks to go before the vote.

Another day, another stop on the campaign trail, but is time running

out for Alex Salmond? He has 16 days to try and seal the deal ahead of

what he describes as Scotland's date with destiny. That is it, there you

are. Today, in Saint Andrews, he was again forced to defend his currency

plans. This time from claims that Scotland would be an international

outcast if they refuse to pay a share of the UK debt. Stuff and

nonsense, said Alex Salmond. That cannot be a default, the debt has

already been contractually accepted by the UK Treasury. The gap is

narrowing. The YouGov opinion poll suggesting that there is as little

as six points in it, but the Yes campaign are still consistently

behind. The First Minister admitting today that he is still the underdog,

perhaps not helped by his lacklustre performance in the first TV debate.

He is widely considered to have won the second and is considered to have

momentum on his side. I have heard the second and is considered to have

momentum on his of one trick ponies, but this is the most extraordinary

thing tonight. But whether Alex Salmond can close the gap is another

matter. Independence? It has got to be a word I like. This week, the Yes

campaign released the latest video but does it do enough to answer

questions over pensions, and the EU? Danny Alexander has warned that EU

membership would not be possible without a formal currency union.

Alex Salmond has just two weeks to avoid what he has described might be

the biggest hang in history. Alex Salmond joins me now. You must be

very pleased with this YouGov poll. We are pleased with that, but it is

not what have -- what matters, what matters is what is happening on the

streets of the towns and cities of Scotland, and there, there is a

tremendous surge towards yes. People previously voting no are coming

forward to yes. We saw that in a meeting in Falkirk tonight. We still

have some distance to travel, we are still the underdogs, we have a gap

to close and that is what we are trying hard to do. You would have

thought that you would've seen one opinion poll gave us -- gave you a

majority. I have always thought it would take up until the ball. You

spoke about the danger to the Scottish NHS if there is a No vote.

You said the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for their health

service and that means that we can protect NHS budgets. What has

changed in the last two years? What has changed is the move to a radical

privatisation in the health and social care bill south of the border

which takes away the command authority for the health service in

England which opens up the possibility of widespread chartering

which can then choose the NHS budget south of the border compared to what

it would have been, and that has a knock-on effect on the Scottish

health service. As I explained last week, we have administrative control

of the health service, but not financial control, which makes it a

very real threat to the future of the Scottish health service as

Professor Allyson Pollock described in detail in the Sunday Herald this

weekend, one of the most foremost experts on these matters. The way to

solve that concern is to take financial and administrative control

of Scotland's National health service and keep it in public hands.

You say that if spending on the NHS in England goes down, less money

comes to Scotland through the block grant, but health spending in

England is going up, not down. The Labour Party in England say that

spending on the health service has declined in two of the last That's

all from the team here for now. Goodbye. Years. That has been backed

up by the Office of National Statistics. We have taken the

consequential 's and top them up to keep health spending in real terms

increasing in Scotland. consequential 's and top them up to

keep health spending If it continues down the road it is going in England

that would be increasingly difficult in future. That was a choice made by

the SNP government. Labour, and the run-up to the 2011 election would

not give the same commitment to protecting the health service budget

in real terms. In Wales, the health service budget under Labour has

declined. They blame cutbacks from Westminster. To sustain enough

fashion -- National Health Service in public hands, we need financial

control as well as administrative control and we would like to give a

constitutional guarantee and the Constitution of the new, independent

Scotland. You want a guarantee that health care will be free at the

point of delivery. Nobody can ever forced a devout Scotland to charge

for health care. Your argument about the block grant reducing because the

health service, if it was that the ridges in England, makes perfect

sense, but nobody can make you charge. What would have to happen is

the Scottish Government has to take money out of other public services

to compensate for the health service. That is what we have done

in the last four years because we have given the health service such

overriding priority, but that becomes increasingly difficult. This

train has broken that commitment in Wales, where Labour are in power. I

do not ink that administration went into office with intention of

cutting the health service budget in Wales in real terms but that is what

is happening because of the pressure of general cutbacks from

Westminster. We say that we need financial as well as administrative

control, and the guarantee and the constitution of a newly independent

Scotland, subject to the wishes of the people in the Constitutional

Convention. Your government seems quite happy to use private health

care providers. You have used them to cut waiting lists. Contracts have

been given to Weight Watchers. It is less than 1% of the general spending

the health service in Scotland, that to private contractors. In England

it is already 6%, heading towards 10%, and if we believe what the

Labour Party says in England, heading towards 20%. It is already

six times the relative spending on private providers in England. It is

not the point of principle, it is about how much of the budget you

spend with them. We inherited 0.8%, and it is now 0.9% and in five of

the last six years it has been less than that percentage that we

inherited, but less than 1% is a different perspective than 6%, 10%,

or 20%, which is where the health service south of the border is

heading. And, if charging is introduced, as many people fear,

including the Labour Party in England, that means that less money

is spent on public provision, with the knock-on effect on the public

finances, if we are foolish enough to allow the health service budget

to be to them and by Westminster. -- to be determined by. If the Unionist

party stick to their place to rule out a formal currency union, you do

not think Scotland would be obliged to pay its share of the UK national

debt, and you have been warned that that could push up the cost of

borrowing for the government, which could mean that we'll have to pay

more for mortgages, loans and credit cards. These are two different

things entirely. If you are using sterling UK sterling interest

rates. The issue of government borrowing is entirely separate.

Gordon Brown is completely wrong today in the statements he made.

There is no question of the port. The Treasury already accepted in the

notice to the markets of the 30th of January, in the event of Scottish

independence they would accept a contractual liability, for that debt

which legally belongs to the Treasury 's, so there can be no

default. And secondly... Sir Nicholas MacPherson, the Permanent

Secretary reiterated that the UK takes the liability for the debt. It

would not technically be a default. It is not a default, because the

debt will be paid, that has already been said in the notice to the

markets. In terms of the credibility and variety of this position, we

have said that we will finance a share of the date, we will finance

it, not take it, in return for a proper share of the financial assets

of the country. The Unionist parties are not claiming that they can stop

us, from using the pound, they have given up on that claim, what they

are claiming is that they will take the financial assets of the bank of

England which is a national asset, nationalised in 1946, which holds

the currency reserves of the country, what is left of the gold

reserves that Gordon Brown did not sell off, it holds 20% of the girls

issued, and at Westminster lays claim to all of these assets held in

the Bank of England, then we have not -- we have no moral liability

for financing any share of the debt, it is as clear as night follows day,

and nobody in any financial market would regard that as anything other

than sensible common-sense, in terms of financial arrangement is. Gordon

Brown said that we would become an international outcast. Danny

Alexander today called a catastrophic. Let us look at what

Crawford Beveridge, your economic adviser said. He said it would not

technically be a deterrent. Because you did not own the debt in the

first place, but then he said, credit ratings agencies would say

that if it looks like a default, and it smells like a default, it raises

the possibility of Scotland losing credibility with financial markets,

and he thought that it would be morally difficult. Morally

difficult, yes, but that quote went on to say that he thought it would

be a positive thing. That is what he said. The moral position and a

responsible position is the one that we are putting forward, that is to

say that for a fair share of the assets of the country, jointly built

up, we would finance a fair share of the liabilities, not because we

legally have two but because it is the moral, responsible thing to do.

We are not daft. If the Unionist parties, and they don't think they

will, went forward with this threat to take all of the assets of the

Bank of England, including 27% of the girls, there would be no moral

obligation never mind any legal obligation for finance any share of

the debt. That would make everyone in Scotland ?1000 per year better

off in terms of not having to finance that debt. The last thing

that George Osborne is going to do is going to make everyone in

Scotland ?1000 per year better off. That is why wouldn't have a

common-sense agreement for a common currency. -- we would have. Mark

Carney, the governor of the bank of them said that successful currency

union requires some seeding of national sovereignty. You said you

wanted corporation tax to be 3p lower than it is in the rest of the

UK, in an independent Scotland, to attract more businesses to Scotland,

away from the rest of the UK. Why would they agreed to allow you to

cut corporation tax below the rate there when putting together a deal

about monetary union? That is not how monetary union works. We have

put forward the fiscal arrangements we have suggested in the fiscal

commission working group. These consist of what is generally

recognised as being necessary for a currency union, that is to say,

coming to an agreement on debt levels and borrowing levels. That

does not mean that you have to have the same corporate or individual

taxation. But they will not want you to cut corporation tax. They will

look after their fiscal policy and we will look after hours. In

Belgium, they had a currency union of Luxembourg and Luxembourg became

the most prosperous country in Europe over that time. They have had

substantial differences in the most prosperous country in

Europe over that time. They personal and corporate tax arrangements. The

idea that you have to synchronise taxation for a successful currency

union is simply not true. We know that is not true because the

proposals that the fiscal commission working group put forward, with

imminent economists like Joseph Stiglitz, Noble laureates, they meet

the requirements of a framework for a successful currency union. We

think it is common sense to have a common currency, so that Scotland

keeps our currency, the pound sterling. And there would be control

over foreign affairs, which the Scottish Government has no say over.

How would an independent Scotland have responded differently to the

current crisis in Iraq and Syria? There would be a collective

response, I cannot believe that it would be mooted that a Scottish

government would have had a Parliamentary motion suggesting

direct intervention in Syria last year. I do not think there was any

canvassed support for that in the Scottish body politic. And an

independent Scotland in my estimation would never get involved

in an illegal war not sanctioned by the Security Council of the United

Nations like the disastrous Iraq war. When they are acting

collectively and properly within the rule of international law, we would

support that. The UK Government, thus far, has acted within the rule

of international law, but I would like a clear statement that that is

what they intend to do in future. The United Nations should be

mobilised farmer and the crisis that we have seen in Iraq and Syria than

it has been, to date. We should depend on the trust in the collect

live will of the United Nations. I don't think there was any evidence

that there was good to be stalling and blocking in the United Nations

because nations jointly face the threat of Islamic state and the

terrorism going on in these countries, but why not use the trust

in international institutions? We know what happens when we do not

trust them, we see the results of illegal wars and illegal

interventions, so why not trust in the rule of international law? And I

know that an independent Scotland would see the rule of international

law as paramount in deciding which intervention we took part in, and

which we did not. it will be interesting. Well, maybe

you could meet halfway. On the train, coming to Scotland, the Prime

Minister could have half-time with one of the guard. Whether you meet,

you have made it very clear that you're negotiating team, bat team

Scotland will not just include SNP members. Alistair has already

volunteered. Will you be inviting Gordon Brown to join you? I think a

range of expertise will be invited. I invited Alistair Darling last week

and former chancellors, former prime ministers would have the expertise.

Gordon Brown would be the sort of person wanted. It is very important

to stress this. There are two aspects. Whether we win the

referendum, we want to find out that can make sure we have the best

people available. We want to have Team Scotland. Secondly, and this

came up as an answer to a question that was asked, whether we take

other obligations after this referendum is decided. We hope that

a yes vote will take forward the country. We will signal our clear

intent to bring this country together after a yes vote and make

sure we maximise the best possible talent that Scotland has available.

That is what I will do as First Minister. That includes Gordon

Brown? You are inviting him. Yes. There is much speculation that David

Cameron might have too resigned as Prime Minister and the rest of the

United Kingdom if you win. Do they get is true? He would not have to

resign, but he might be under incredible pressure. That pressure

would increase if the circumstances arose and he had not even come up to

take part in a democratic television debate during the campaign. I think

he wants said, always said to have said, that he did not want to be the

Prime Minister who lost Scotland, like to see third lost America. If

we leave to one side that Scotland is a property that you can lose or

find, I think it'd be embarrassing to be in that position, without even

coming up a democratic discussion of views. I think a lot of people in

Scotland, is secondary to whether David Cameron does his job or not.

What they want to see is that we have a parliament and the government

of the choice of the people of Scotland and not happy situation

which has prevailed for the best part of more than half a century

that a majority of occasions, we do not get the government we choose.

That is the essential argument independence in this campaign. If

there is a no vote, will you have to step down as First Minister and

leader of the SNP? No. I was elected as First Minister and my intention

will be to discharge my duties and to serve a term. We are going to win

the referendum, that is our indication. Polls question people

who are on the register to vote. We know that there are hundreds of

people who are voting to be first time in who are now actively

participating in the political process. Yesterday in Dundee, they

were queueing any registration office to register to vote. I went

to the mosque in Dundee where people were registering to vote for the

first time in our lives. They didn't have a high opinion of political

parties, or didn't want to engage in the debate before, and believe me,

these people are not registering to vote no, they are voting yes. They

want to be part of the process. And then they speak, and speak they

will, then that role but have David Cameron and the best of the

Westminster league quaking in their boots. There is still the

possibility that there could be a no vote. He used an interesting form of

words, you said you would discharge your duties. Did that mean you would

go through to 2016 and fight another election? I am not going to

speculate on the political career of Alex Salmond. This is because this

referendum is not to do with the career of Alex Salmond, this

referendum is to do with it being the first aquatic opportunity to

establish a democratic Scotland, -- democratic opportunity, and having

the First Minister of their choice, not Alex Salmond or any other

politician. Thank you very much coming in.

Now, here are some other stories happening

MUSIC PLAYS Al Jazeera reports are killing of at

least six people in a numerous drone attack on a convoy believed to be

carrying senior leaders in Somalia. The group denies the leader is one

of the dead. On BBC Online, prosecutors say this boy's parents

will face no future action and will be reunited with his son. The

Telegraph lead to the merging with sports of a new Islamic State

video, purportedly showing the beheading of US hostage.

Listening to that interview with the First Minister, is the journalist

and political commentator for the Sunday Herald, Iain Macwhirter,

and the leading human rights lawyer and pro unionist QC, Derek Ogg.

Thank you both very much coming here. Derek, you're not a natural

supporter of the First Minister, not any Independence Referendum. What

did you make of his cases evening? I voted SNP in the other referendums

keep you get out. We are both strong Europeans. I think he sounded

confident although he was saying we still have a long way to go, and

that we were the underdogs. I think he sounded quite confident. Of

course, the message that he and his pollsters say a heading home, better

go hitting home, is to talk up the NHS, so good privatisation and that

seems to be what a lot of people are saying they are worried about and

that is why they might vote yes. You get the NHS that you vote for. In

England and Wales if you vote for the Labour government you will not

have that privatisation. It is democracy at work. Alex Salmond is

confident, he says, that he will win, but still describes himself as

the underdog, even though he is probably the most accessible edition

country has seen for some time. He still likes to play the scrappy

underdog -- politician. There has not been a single opinion poll to

show him less in the league. The narrowing of the polling YouGov from

22 points to six points in the space of the month, clearly something is

happening. I think the First Minister is right that there is a

ground swell of political engagement taking place in Scotland. I

certainly have not seen this before in my political lifetime. There was

a moment when people take charge of their own political destiny and I

think that is happening at the moment. It does not necessary in the

A mean that yes will roll home on the 18th, but politician -- politics

is no longer the holes of the politicians. Do you want to go back

to the half life of before, when Scotland's ambitions were limited by

the Westminster establishment. There is an astonishing amount of

engagement and SNP campaigners will also do like always say the polls do

not reflect what we're seeing. Do you think there is some truth in

that? Is a great yes vote that is not been contacted by pollsters? I

think people who are nationalists are lifelong committed nationalists.

I don't think any excitement anywhere to tell you the truth. That

is one of the problems of the no campaign, and I am not a member of

Better Together, but I'm going to vote no because I feel British. One

of the problems of the no campaign is that they are selling a message

that is negative, you can't get more negative than vote no. There is a

core of people in the SNP you are genuinely excited he truthfully

believe that Scotland will get their place if they are independent. That

is not going to go away. That is where the excitement is. I don't

think there is a huge conversion going on, I don't keep trust the

polls. Where people stand, with a pen poised above the ballot paper on

that day, I think that then, a lot of people will be saying it is a pig

in a poke, and vote no. Somebody said tonight, a Bell Rock wrote they

would feel ashamed to vote no, but that is what they are going to do.

Well, the markets seem to be believing the polls. Sterling has

taken a bit of a hit. The headline NEF A Financial Times -- the

Financial Times is that it will take a hit. I think that is a consequence

of the negativity of the no campaign and allowing it to be resting on one

essential premise which is that they are not going to allow Scotland to

use the pound as currency after independence. If they are proposing

a chaotic disintegration of the United Kingdom financial situation,

which is what they would be doing if they wanted to stop Scots using

their own currency, that would fall just as badly on the rest of the UK

as it would Scotland. That is what the markets are picking up on. That

is why you are hearing that UK Government is involved in

contingency planning for what might happen after a guest vote. Of course

they will be doing that and they will be telegraphing that, most

sensible solution to that would be to maintain currency and union in

Scotland and England. That is the most equitable solution and the most

stable solution. There is a duty of civil servants in Britain not to

have contingency plans. It can only be a guess or a no vote. This has

fascinated the secretary at the Treasury. They said they had no

contingency plans because they did not countenance the yes vote. Today,

they said they had contingency plans for their contingency plans, which

sounds like a plan. They will take care of business if anything happens

to be market. Will there be shock waves around the world? No, markets

do go up and down for all sorts of regions -- reasons, the conflict in

the Middle East, Oriel and pipelines, markets can go up and

down for any reasons and the market sort itself out -- oil. If there was

a guest vote, I think everyone who voted no will have two join Team

Scotland. Thank you both very much. That is all from the night. Thank

you for watching and I will be back at the same time tomorrow night.

Please do join me then. Until then, have a very good evening.