04/09/2014 Scotland 2014

With just a fortnight left to go the Labour Party were trying to

outdo the Yes campaign over who could deliver more social justice.

And he's big, bad and blue with ginger hair.

The big question is, is Scotland's comic book hero Saltire Yes or No?

David Cameron says he will not rule out air strikes against

Islamic State which is holding a British hostage.

The crisis will dominate the NATO summit for the next couple

of days which will also have to consider the Alliance's response to

If representatives of an independent Scotland were

at the meeting, what would they be saying and how would our foreign

In a moment I will be talking to the SNP's defence spokesman,

The threat from the Islamic State and the crisis in Ukraine is

dominating the NATO summit, but at the back of David Cameron's mind the

possibility of an independent Scotland, one that would seek to

remain in NATO but also remove Trident. The SNP plans a

postindependence Scottish defence force of 15,000 regular personnel

and 5000 reservists on the defence budget of ?2.5 billion. In a letter

last weekend the former deputy supreme Allied Commander in Europe

made it clear he was not impressed. Having reviewed the Scottish

Government's White Paper I found the proposal is amateurish, and

realistic and lacking any clear strategic purpose. It is highly

unlikely NATO will agree to any further expansion and there could be

no certainty about Scottish membership of NATO. However, the

former UK ambassador to NATO wrote to the same paper to make it clear

she disagreed with the assessment and was in no doubt the other 28

NATO allies would see it in their interests to welcome an independent

Scotland into NATO. NATO was founded after the Second World War and many

of the ships and armaments were built along the Clyde.

This crane is all that remains of John Brown's shipyard. 10,000 men

once worked here building some of the finest ships the world has ever

seen and some of the deadliest. Warships of such destructive force

that helped Britain maintain its world empire. Today the site is home

to a college and the weapons of mass of destructive force can be found

further down the river at Faslane. The Scottish Government remains

determined to remove nuclear weapons from Scottish soil, but they want to

remain in NATO. Opponents argue this is simply hypocrisy, sheltering

behind someone else's nuclear deterrent. And what about the cost

of NATO membership? NATO members are supposed to spend at least 2% of

their GDP on defence, though in practice many do not. Using the

Scottish Government's own estimates for GDP that equates to ?3.5

billion, nearly ?1 billion more than it is proposing. Would an

independent Scotland stand just as secure in the world?

Earlier I spoke to the leader of the SNP at Westminster and their defence

spokesperson Andrew Robertson and I asked him if he was at the summit,

what response would he be advocating to Isis. We need to be clear about

how much of a threat it is. It is a massive threat in the Middle East.

It has been destabilising countries which have nascent democratic

governments, those that are more authoritarian, but it is also an

ideology based on conquest, murder and has the potential to export that

threat to other countries. It has to be taken that seriously. At the same

time given the experience we had with Syria we have to be careful

that one does not just reach for the quickest response, the military

response. I think one has to keep all options on the table, but one

has to do so whilst building the broadest coalition, taking an

approach which is consistent with international law and bring the

world with you. What do you think of the Government response so far to

the UK hostage who has been threatened with death? I am

supportive of the Prime Minister and the tone he has taken on this

issue. We cannot bow to hostage takers and terrorists. I think he is

right and understandably we do not hear about it in the public realm,

but we will be looking at a full range of options about how we can

help somebody in those circumstances. I am not privy to the

plans, but I have no doubt the Prime Minister wishes to do everything he

can within his power to help this hostage and others and I wish him

and everybody else well involved in trying to make that happen. Do you

envisage when an independent Scotland would ever invade

militarily? Yes, we are able to properly fund our forces to make the

difference and there are places where we could make a difference. On

the sea in the Horn of Africa where there is a European Union and NATO

deployment to deal with piracy. It is not just about defence of the

round, but we also have to be there to support the United Nations when

they need help. General Sir Richard Sheriff, one of the UK's most senior

military figures, he has just stood down, says your defence plans are

amateurish, realistic and lacking any strategic purpose. He has

clearly not read the White Paper produced by the Scottish Government

which is fully costed. The structure of the defence forces are listed in

detail. The advice of the Scottish Government court was wrong extremely

senior and very professional until recently serving senior officers in

the British Armed Forces. I take a different view from the general, as

does of course until recently the serving British Ambassador to NATO.

This week he said an independent Scotland would be welcomed in NATO

and she is voting yes in the referendum. I am on her side of the

argument. What I NATO going to think about it when you apply for

membership when you say you will spend less than 1.5% of GDP when

members are required to spend 2%. We have looked closely at what our

neighbours do. The country that does more closely what we do is Denmark.

They have a very strong maritime focus as would we. Our plans are for

a closer alignment in defence spending terms, but also in

capabilities. I have read really heard British Prime Minister 's

praising the abilities of the Danes and the role they play within NATO

and that is what Scotland would do. If there is a yes vote there will be

at least a tricky 18 months of negotiations with Westminster about

the separation and defence would be at the heart of that. Trident is

probably your best trump card when it comes to getting other things you

want. How much wriggle room is on there when you were expelled Trident

weapons? Can you give them an extra decade in return for concessions

from Westminster. As with all negotiations it is a good idea to

think yourself into the position of the other party in the negotiations.

I have spoken to many people in London and they themselves would

wish Trident to move as quickly as they can possibly move it. It is

then both of our interests that they will have to move the submarine

south. It is not just because that is what people have voted for, but

decision-makers in London will also want it to happen as speedily as

Happel. Senior figures in the UK have warned that the rest of the UK

will be less secure as a result. Do you care about that? Yes, I do, and

the accusation it would be less secure is false. It is right to

appreciate the decision-makers in the rest of the UK will want to make

sure that Scotland takes defence and security seriously. That is why we

updated the policy and we have a costed proposal on defence and

security and we have looked at our strategic location. A safer Scotland

is a safer north of Britain, something the UK does not take

seriously at the present time and Scotland does. We will have

frigates, ocean patrol vessels, we will do what we need to do to secure

the north of Britain. The rest of the UK will no Scotland is taking

its responsibilities -- seriously. Angus Robertson, thank you very

much. Listening to the interview was Lord George Robertson, no relation,

but he was previously the UK defence minister. You have made dire

warnings in the past about how Scotland breaking away from the UK

could affect the UK's defence capacity. How would an independent

Scotland diminish the ability to respond to what is happening in

Iraq. First of all, the break-up of Britain would virtually remove the

second military power in the West from what is going on in the world

today. The creation of a separate state would mean we would have about

three or four years of detailed negotiations I'm picking 300 years

of integrating, including military integration. We will not really be a

player at a time when Vladimir Putin is waving his nuclear weapons in the

air and this horrible ices organisation is trampling over Iraq

and Syria. This is the last possible time you would have thought for the

idea that the break-up of Britain would be in any way good for the

security of this country and the world. David Cameron says he has not

ruled out air strikes in Iraq. The UK military could carry on with

joining in with the Americans in air strikes whilst negotiating with an

independent Scotland. I am not sure a decision would have to be taken

about air strikes. When we conducted air strikes in Kosovo to save

hundreds of people from death and destruction, the leader of the SNP,

the now First Minister of Scotland, said that was unpardonable folly. I

am not sure the separate Scottish state will have the toughness of

mind to take what action is required to protect the world from these

dangers that we are facing at the moment. In the past you have said

breaking up the UK would be cataclysmic in geopolitical terms

and the forces of darkness would welcome it. Why would it diminish

the UK's defence capacity where it would make much difference to the

forces of darkness? The dictionary definition of cataclysmic is a

sudden and violent upheaval. The break-up of Britain would be a

sudden and violent upheaval in the architecture of the security of the

West at a time when we are facing unparalleled challenges to the

security and the standards of living that we have in this country. That

is what we are talking about, breaking up Britain and its armed

forces. Angus Robertson sounds so nice and reasonable when you

interview him in his Westminster office, but the fact is they want to

take frigates out of the Royal Navy. They want to take Typhoon S

out of the RAF and they want to take regiments out of the British Army.

If that does not weaken the British Armed Forces, what will? At a time

when I says, a horrible, terrible organisation, which is not only

threatening people in the Middle East, but will start threatening in

us in this country as well, to diminish the power and influence of

the UK at this time is completely irresponsible and it would be an

upheaval basically to the standards we have in the West. Any action

taken against Isis will be a coalition of different countries

acting in concert. The same with Ukraine. Scotland could take part in

that coalition and be one more country?

You have to go through the transition involved. If after 100

years, like Norway and Denmark, which they quote, you might have

Armed Forces with the cohesion and manoeuvrability that would allow it

to take part properly in NATO operations. But they want to smash

apart the British Armed Forces in order to create out of it a separate

Scottish date and a separate remainder of the United Kingdom. So

we're a long way away from that separate Scottish state being able

to participate in these missions. As I see, the Nationalist party in

Scotland condemned the action we took in Kosovo to save hundreds of

thousands of lives. So I am not confident that the leadership would

want to be part of a Coalition that felt it necessary to deal with these

savages that are operating in northern Iraq. Angus Robertson

raised the question of Trident, he said the UK military establishment

would want to remove it as quickly as they possibly could from

Scotland. Is he right about that? This is part of the hopeless

optimism and assumptions. I do not know who Angus Robertson has been

speaking to, but no-one I know an expat world of Armed Forces things

you can remove the Trident system from Scotland in that sort of length

of time. And who is NATO going to approach a new country, brand-new

country, applying for membership, which is simultaneously going to

disarm another country, in the United Kingdom, which is part and

parcel of the nuclear alliance that the SNP for generations has opposed?

The former UK ambassador to NATO said Scotland would be welcomed in.

She is entitled to her opinion. But not another ambassador to NATO I

have spoken to in the last 24 hours I got these. -- agrees. She knows

how difficult it would be to get 28 countries around the table to agree

to Scotland becoming a member Wyn Edwards simultaneously take the kind

of unilateral action that has been threatened over the Trident case. --

a member while simultaneously taking. There have been heavy

conditions laid down previously. I have experience of that. This is not

off the top of my head. It would be very difficult, no matter what any

particular ex-ambassador says. In two weeks' time,

the polls will have closed. The people will have spoken and

the analysts will be desperately, But, in the meantime,

the campaigns were out today, fighting over who can deliver

a more socially just society. And in a new narrative twist,

the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, seems to be distancing himself

from his Better Together partners. You have a Tory Government for

social injustice when we believe in social justice. The Government

supports energy companies and we would freeze energy bills. They set

the minimum wage for low paid people to law and we would bring attire. It

would mean more powers for the Scottish Parliament. In this

campaign, Ed Miliband and David Cameron are two peas in a pod. They

have pledged conservative policies and they have no credibility left

whatsoever. In our Edinburgh studio is

the Guardian's Severin Carrell. It sounds like Ed Miliband is

confused about which election campaign he came to fight. Attacking

the Tories as if this is the 2015 general election rather than the

referendum where he is in partnership with the Tories. It

exemplifies the Labour conundrum. They are not in power in London or

Edinburgh and everything they seem to do at the moment is to try and

impress a Scottish voters that if they do back a no vote on the 18th

and Ford Labour next year, they will somehow get a complete reform on the

way the UK works. It is a fairly elaborate proposition to put to

voters. What Alex Salmond is clearly trying to do is suggest to the

electorate in Scotland before the referendum that only he can offer

the opportunity to make a decisive difference. In a sense, seeking to

show that Miliband is impotent at the moment and they have the power

in their hands. They have this golden opportunity to make a

profound difference. Miliband is on a real difficulty here. -- is in. He

has an overarching problem about the future of the UK and any shorter

tactical problem about how to deal with the Tories in 2015. I'm trying

to make those works simultaneously is going to prove something of a

juggling act. At the same time as we have Ed Miliband here at hacking the

Tories on social justice policies, Alex Salmond is seeking to portray

him as much the same, he said the Aral peas in a pod because they are

in the better cup -- they Aral peas in a pod. That is a tenuous position

for him to take. He might try, but what he seeking to do is not

necessarily persuade Scottish voters that is the case, but push Labour

into trying to differentiate itself and break up the Better Together

Coalition. This has a different set of dynamics. On one hand, he has

delivered its support out of disaffected Labour voters to build

up a yes vote. He is also seeking to show that the Better Together

campaign is split. He puts Alistair Darling under pressure and it allows

the pro-independence movement to show that, actually, there are all

these tensions and conflicts amongst the UK parties that on another

issue, which is more powers for Scotland, are supposed to be

unified. It is quite a clever gambit. The idea that people buy the

notion that Miliband is the same as the Tories, I think has little

traction to it. Ed Miliband was trying to position himself as the

only person to deliver social justice, saying that the SNP want to

cut corporation tax. Only he would raise the top rate of tax to 50p.

Will that work? Suggesting that the SNP at the right of Labour? They

will make a very good attempt to prove that case. There is the

difference between a UK Government which actually does have the levers

of power over these issues, and the Scottish Government, which does not

have those levers and has never been in a position to deliver on those

policies. The difficulty they have, I think, is that a lot of the

arguments they have to present to the Scottish electorate are

relatively killed and at a late stage in the campaign. -- relatively

detailed. The SNP have attacked this issue with simple notion of

protecting the NHS, protect welfare, fought for independence. And trying

to make a substantive dent in that proposition for Labour is known to

be something of a trial in. They will try very hard, that is

undoubtedly the case. -- something of a challenge.

And now it's time for Jonathan, our very own action hero.

In these uncertain times, could Scotland do with

And his latest instalment is coming out very soon, just in time for the

I've been to meet the Dundee-based team behind Saltire.

He is bigger blue with ginger hair and Saltire is about to star in his

second graphic novel. Saltire Crossing Scottish superhero. -- is a

Scottish. He is a genuine heroic character to compete with the likes

of Spiderman, Superman and Batman. Let's take the cliches and do the

opposite. He is awesome, but yes he's ginger and has a big beard. A

lot of people say Scottish people are so peel the blue, so we took

that and ran with it. -- they are blue. He stands up for the underdogs

and the people who need him, against all the invasions and stuff going

on. We live in interesting times. It's Saltire yes or no? Both sides

of this campaign would see the patriotic way Scottish. Saltire is

definitely that. In terms of the political debate, he probably likes

to remain neutral. He is basically indestructible. What are so

superhero weakness? It is the quintessential Scottish problem. It

is alcohol. Let's hope Saltire winces battle with the Demon drink.

One critic wondered if saltire had been written by Alex Salmond, but

his creators insist he is neutral. And joining us this evening to mull

over today's highlights and lowlights from

the campaign trail, the journalist and political commentator,

David Torrance, and Susan Stewart She's also the former Communications

Director for the Yes campaign. Let's get straight to the referendum

campaign today. The RMT union became the first trade union to come out

and back the Yes campaign. 44% of members voting yes, 41% 14 no.

Nicola Sturgeon said this was a humiliation for Ed Miliband as he

was campaigning north of the border today. -- 41% said no. It is bad

timing for his visit. A sign I suppose of increasing momentum

amongst that section of the electorate. Traditional

working-class Labour voters. Labour are keen to point out it was a

minority of the vote. It was quite close and a majority actually backed

no or did not take a position. But to have a trade union for more oil

on board as a significant coup for the Yes campaign. For the ordinary

photo, doesn't matter of a trade union backs the Yes campaign? It

does. This trade union balloted members rather than the leadership

deciding which position it took. The democratic ballot of the members,

they chose to support yes. That means ordinary trade union members

see that the rights, any progress they have made, better maintained

and indeed advanced in a yes vote rather than the status quo. To pick

David up on the Labour line that many people did not vote, that is

like the 1970 940% thing, where we count the dead. -- 1979 40%. There

was a rare moment of agreement between Alex Salmond and David

Cameron. He told reporters that if the referendum does not go their

way, they will not resign. David Cameron will stay as prime minister

if there is a yes vote, Alex Salmond if there is a no vote. Is that

tenable? It is more tenable for Alex Salmond. If it is now, it will be

narrow. Alex Salmond's mandate in 2011 is pretty good. So I think

there's less pressure him. David Cameron would be immensely damaged

if there was a yes vote, however. He will be a Prime Minister who

presided over the break-up of the UK. It is difficult to see him

surviving that. The elements in his party who already do not like him,

the Euro-sceptics, would move in for the kill. It is nine months before

the general election. A short timescale in which to change your

leader and the Prime Minister and Boris Johnson will not be in

Westminster yet to challenge. And David Cameron would be the prime

minister refused to debate the First Minister, which everyone wants to

see. Have read that there are mammals in the Tory party that if it

is a yes vote, they would kiss poor and bringing in emergency

legislation to Poste born the general election. -- they would

postpone and bring in. Is Ed Miliband helping Better Together?

Some of his comments sounds like he is fighting a different campaign.

The battle for social justice is a good and important area. As you saw

in your programme last night, the policies relating to Regis should

wealth, they struggled on that front. It is a difficult argument

for Labour to make. On welfare, they appear to be closer to the

Conservatives. But they do not want to cut corporation tax, and that is

a position to the left of the SNP and Yes campaign in terms of social

justice. Sad news this evening. Joan Rivers has died this evening after a

cardiac arrest. Let's remember her at her best. Please! Are we going

back to that? Are you kidding? No man has ever put his hand up a

woman's dress looking for a library card! She perform stand-up to the

end and had her own reality show until recently. A much of a pioneer

in of women comedy and what legacy has she left? A pretty big one. Big

break was almost half a century ago. She just did not care. She was very

risky and pushed the boundaries of comedy. I interviewed her ten years

ago and she was an absolute hoot. The humour came through the air and

she gave me perfume for my mother. We have to leave it there, David.

I'll be back at the new time of ten o'clock on Monday night.