19/01/2016 Scotland 2016

The NHS 24 IT fiasco that's swallowed all the savings

NHS 24 apologises for systemic failure which caused huge budget

overspends and repeated delays in its new IT system.

We examine how opinion pollsters called the general election result

And where did it all go wrong for Labour in Scotland? The party offers

up some home truths. It was supposed to be up and running

more than two years ago Now we're told it won't just be late

but it will cost more too. The bill for NHS 24's

new computerised call-handling service is set to come

in at ?50 million more Its former and current heads are due

to explain themselves before But how did it get in such a mess

in the first place? The health service telephone advice

line NHS 24 tried to launch a new computer system in November but it

had to be abandoned after only one hour because of concerns over

patient safety. The organisation said that failure caused the already

delayed project to run further overbudget. In a submission to the

Holyrood public or that committee NHS 24 chiefs apologised

unreservedly for the overspend and underlined the reasons they said if

that happened. They said there had been an overall systemic failure.

They said none of the measures put in place by NHS 24 or the Scottish

Government reduced the substantial risks of the project. They say the

overspend means that the cost and savings benefits used to justify the

upgrade in the first place would not be realised. The former and current

head will give evidence to that same committee tomorrow and can expect

tough questioning. What I want to hear tomorrow is when will it be put

right, when will we have a system fit for purpose, and when will the

Scottish Government address all the IT problems that were pointed out

five years ago by the previous auditor general? They have failed to

do so so far. In a statement NHS 24 said it was now clear that the

service does not have the required expertise to deliver such a large

scale project and that it was committed to resolving the

outstanding issues. With the overspend now outstripping planned

savings we will find out tomorrow if that washes with Holyrood and the

public. We did ask the Health Secretary

Shona Robison to come on tonight's Joining me now are two MSPs,

James Kelly for Scottish Labour and in Edinburgh is Jim Eadie

for the SNP, who is also the Convenor of the Infrastructure

and Capital Investment Committee. This project has been a complete

waste of taxpayer's Manny has not? Clearly this is not a situation that

anyone would want to have seen happen and there are serious issues

that must be addressed. Whether it will be a waste of taxpayer money

remains to be seen. We will wait for and scrutinise carefully the outcome

of the review that is underway and has been taken forward by the chief

nursing officer. It has already swallowed the savings it was

supposed to generate. Clearly the situation is not one that anyone

would have wanted to say. That is why we have to wait for and

scrutinise the report that will be published later this month. But the

public are absolutely right to expect answers. The MSPs who will

cross examined both the former chief executive of NHS 24 and the current

interim chief executive of NHS 24 will ask serious questions as well.

I am very act as a MSP presenting my constituents that following the

additional support that was put in place NHS 24 continued to assert

that this new IT system was on track for delivery and successful

politician by autumn 2015 when claiming that was not the case. I

want answers and we all want answers to what has gone wrong, to

understand that, to learn the lessons for the future, and to get

this new IT system reintroduced as quickly as possible in order to

deliver better patient care and deliver value for money for the

taxpayer in Scotland. If the Health Secretary was continually given

assurances that everything was fine and you cannot blame her can you? It

is a shocking waste of public money. Not only is the system two years

overdue but ?50 million overspend on this. They were asking people to use

a pen and paper instead of the actual computer system. It is

unacceptable. The Scottish Government have a track record of

the field IT projects. They need to get a grip and so does NHS 24.

The Scottish Government to take some responsibility for this. In the

report points out that there was governance by the Scottish

Government as well as a NHS 24. The Government brought in its own

auditors to use ago and still costs continued to spiral. Clearly there

has to be oversight by the Scottish Government of all of the health

boards, both territorial and the special health boards of which NHS

24 is one but we should be clear that Jude Law since in terms of

procurement contracts is an operational matter for NHS 24.

-- due diligemnce. But we need to understand what has happened and

learn the lessons for the future. But picking up on the point about

failed IT systems it was the Labour Government side of the border that

had to abandon an IT system for the entire NHS in England which cost

tens of billions of pounds. Let us stick to this IT failure. If there

work clear concerns as there were two years ago how can this has

continued for another two years and millions more of taxpayer money has

been squandered. # What happens was that Ernst and

Young undertook that piece of work. As a result of that the National

services division of NHS Scotland put in additional operational

support to that organisation and we were assured that the issues were

being addressed and resolved. Clearly that was not the case. We

need to understand why that has happened and we do need to learn the

lessons for the future. Jury introduced this new IT system as

quickly as possible for the benefit of patients. I am not in anyway

downplaying the seriousness or significance of this that NHS as it

is currently constituted as a successful system. It is treated

75,000 people over the eight-day festive period. It dealt with 1.5

million calls annually. Most calls are dealt with in an average time of

nine seconds. That is a good record. What needs to be done now? This will

not wash. I have a situation in my constituency where people are coming

to meet with cancelled operations, cancelled cancer treatments, yet we

have a ?50 million overspend here. What the Government need to do is

not just put this right but they need to answer serious questions

about the contract. Why is it we are stuffing millions of pounds into the

pockets of IT consultants who are simply failing to do the job and we

are not supporting patients. We need systems to support patients. We need

money invested in nurses and doctors. We do not need angling IT

consultants wasting public money. We have to leave it there for this

evening. Now, who can forget Paddy Ashdown

threatening to eat his hat on election night as the BBC exit

poll suggested a Lib Dem wipeout and an overall majority for

the Conservatives at Westminster. The opinion pollsters have shown

a little more humility in trying to work out how they got it

so badly wrong in the run up A report out today says the failure

to forecast the outcome was largely due to unrepresentative

poll samples. Ten o'clock and we are seeing the

Conservatives are the largest party. It was not supposed to be like this.

Polls throughout the campaign suggested we were heading for a hung

parliament. The permutations are enormous. We have never been in this

situation before. The potential for uncertainty is immense. There was

incredulity in the studios. At this is correct I will publicly eat my

hat. But the only opinion poll that counts is how we bought it and the

results were clear. I will now form a majority Conservative Government.

How did the pollsters get it so wrong? The polls was accurate. We

spotted the surge in independence and this was consistent and reported

in the polls throughout. But the UK wide polls which made up the general

election, they did get it wrong. Pollsters have been listening to

much to some people, not enough to others. Labour voters were

overrepresented in the sample and conservative voters were under

represented in the sample. That happens because conservative photos

are a little more difficult to get into a survey that has nothing to do

with them not wanting to reveal that they are Tory voters but that simply

means that they take longer to get to. The pollsters will face another

huge test in me looking ahead to the Holyrood elections. They have to get

constituency votes right. They also have to get the list voting

intention right as well. The proportion makes such an impact on

the overall outcome. The challengers have always been fairly severe in

the Scottish Bowling appeared with Westminster and we know from the

referendum survey on independence that in the end pollsters were right

in terms of people voting to remain, nevertheless they did not come near

the 11 point lead that was the final outcome. Might we have voted

differently if there had not been such speculation about a hung

parliament? Do polls alter outcomes? It matters to get the quality rate.

It also shows us that polls can help us get a snapshot picture about this

Apple is not right that picture makes me slightly misleading which

is why we also need long-term survey evidence. But should there be more

regulation on polling and the waiters reported? There are calls

from time to time to either regulate the industry more or indeed ban

polls during election campaigns. There are strong arguments against

that happening as well. But let us listen to what people have to say

and make some judgments at that stage. The colours on this map will

shift next week. The question is whether the opinion polls are

telling as. We love the drama of an opinion poll even if the story it

tells us cannot be the entire truth. Joining me now from our Edinburgh

studio is Ailsa Henderson, Professor of Political Science

at the University of Edinburgh. Did you think today's report has

nailed the problem? In some we know that in some respects, this is it

with the polls there, the is the extent to for some of the answer

that people are providing. We often included in these panels, they are

pulled over and over and over again. With each poll, new pieces of

information. Just be asking. With each ball, we a group of people that

are less likely population they are supposed to represent. In some

respects, yes. They are absolutely right that something is part of it

but the that polling companies transporting the sample into

something that is unlike the rest is something how was it that the very

same polls that got it wrong in the UK got it yes, there is a couple of

things going on there. There ordinary voters and that meant

underestimation of Conservative voters. If you have an electorate of

the UK were conservatives are the most popular second post-bubble

party, underestimating that vote make a difference in terms of what

you think is -- second with the Lib. To some extent, every get it wrong

consistently with one party and that one party is not one of the two, in

less. That is part of the answer. The other part of the answer is that

we know that even lowly polls were they were out on Labour. They were

overestimated Labour support almost to the same extent in Scotland as

they were in England. The reason that is not a problem in Scotland

but it was in between the two the gap -34% in England. If you look in

could the predictions of a hung Parliament actually beyond 50%, I

think that they... Well, the flip side said there was going vote,

would it push more people back to Labour? It might have done. We do

not know, one thing we do know is we seem to think of Scottish elections

there was an Westminster election where people work and this was

almost a rerun of the referendum. We know that the referendum mattered

in. The had changed an issue of the electorate who felt different about

labour, mainly because it was making sorry, I was just going to say, very

briefly before we come to an end, we have a couple of elections coming

up. Holyrood and then EU election, are you confident that

up. Holyrood and then EU election, addressed the problem and will

up. Holyrood and then EU election, it I don't think

And joining me now to discuss that and some of the day's other news

from Westminster is our Correspondent Nick Eardley.

from Westminster is our to similar sorts of it needs a

massive swing from the Tories in Tony Blair, when he won the massive

landslide of 1997 did not even manage to sort of numbers. In the

Lords today, they have the details of the Scotland Bill. What have been

highlights? That's right, act bill and that the moment, it is that is a

the eyes and cross line by line and suggest improvements. A couple

issues came up today, when the British once power over the British

Transport Police in to Edinburgh? Likewise, with the Crown estate,

questions were raised over who would have the responsibility for the

Crown estate in Scotland once these powers the Smith commission said

that the Scottish culture be taking that responsibility but peers have

pointed out that it executive responsibility. It should be the

Scottish Government if anybody that looks after that part of things. Why

does that matter? Again, the question that is is, when it were

parts of it were the practicalities of all the? Finally, briefly, we

hint today that there could be an EU referendum hot on the heels of the

Holyrood election in May, what has that's right. One of the few things

we don't know about the referendum is then it'll be. Lastly, Alec

Salmond said it would be different spectral for Scotland after the

Holyrood election on the Scottish Secretary also spoke about ageing

referendum today saying he is happy to have it the key question is, when

in June with the hole that? If they do opt for a summer referendum. If

it is a religion, I extent to be Scotland and London. If it is

afterwards, there Here now to discuss

some of the day's news Kevin Hague, who's also

a businessman, and Andrew Tickell, do you think timing matters? Between

Scotland and Westminster whenever. In terms of the EU referendum, with

all respect, I do not think interesting June or July the

referendum will take place, I cannot get too wound up about that. Nicola

Sturgeon was saying ageing referendum would be too little time

to convince voters in the rest of Britain that EU membership is the

way to go. Do you think she has I think the important question is

this. Does it covers of enough time to actually learn a lot about the EU

to make the level of public knowledge about these things is

pretty low. I think that is the more important question. Interested in

the outrage. There has been too much of that in recent times. Are you

more concerned about voter fatigue? To elections in two months? Again,

I'm afraid I am not. Anyone who does not take the EU referendum

seriously, anyone that they were out for weeks ago casting a vote and are

not that all about the to imagine that that sort of behaviour will be

created by the timing of the vote. Also, the campaign for the EU

referendum is easily on a national scale. You are not that because of

the I think it is a bit of a fault the let's see if we can get you a

little bit more interested in Labour's

introspection the against Westminster using a vote against

Labour. Is it is a convinces me otherwise. I think it is a very thin

report which does not reflect on the disaffection with the Labour Party

in the country. If you talk to people that have left the Labour

Party, but I am always struck by what a to Kinnock. I think those

historical roots, the erosion of the base of the Labour Party in terms of

organised labour, I votes of the do you think there is a deep

understanding about what I think it is there any report. I don't think

it has been picked up very widely. There are the way the media reported

and the media has not got across Labour on the other hand, the an

overarching political narrative, a clear message. That they failed to

be persistent and consistent in that is politics 101. I am not a

politician but if you can write in your report that you did not have a

clear message and it didn't get across, and your representatives

were not pushing that message, that is the problem. All of the rest, all

of the technical staff is just noise. They did

they were talking the talk without walking the walk. They were trying

to win over Conservative voters without trying to win over the rest

of the United Kingdom. That did create tension and that is part of

the reason why they did not to some extent, they failed to decide which

horse they were backing and therefore ended up there is a bit of

the SNP taking their policies. Do you think they have taken an

responsibility for what they have done wrong? I don't say this with

any animosity, I psychology of the Scottish Labour Party is a sense it

has a sense of feeling victimised by the Scottish people and feeling

misunderstood. Desperately longing that we should just all listened, "I

want to listen I remember the Labour faces collapsing on TV. That is a

striking illustration has not been it is to see what kind of

catastrophe Scottish Labour would have to go I was just on to say

exactly that. It is an interesting analysis. I hope it is an updated

analysis. I think. How catastrophically wanted to be? We

are now seeing that it is now another generation of politicians

coming through. If you are standing for election for Scottish Labour, it

is I think what you'll see now is a wave of Scottish politicians are

therefore the right reasons and will not dare for the easy feat. In

contrast, among the SNP, you have people who are getting easy feat

because it is the SNP. The SNP run the risk now of suffering what will

happen to complacent any consequence in I

think it is impossible that we'll still stuck in a speech this

situation. I think we have been in that sense of it is in Nicola

Sturgeon's I think hopefully the polls are not too accurate and

hopefully there is room for some light on some sensible opposition in

Scotland. I think that Andrew will be here,

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