09/05/2016 Scotland 2016

One side says peace in Europe could be at risk if Britain

The other side claims coming out of the EU wouldn't

The newbies at Parliament - all 51 of them - get

And why did Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland 75 years ago?

Are you sad that the excitement of the Holyrood election

Well, today is your lucky day, because there's another big

political event just round the corner.

The referendum on whether Britain should stay in the EU has been big

news south of the border, and now the campaign is showing

Ahead of the vote on the 23rd of June, both sides are taking

to the streets and whisky distilleries to ask

for your support. Andrew Black reports.

Today, just in case you didn't know, his Europe Day. The event seen here

being not in Italy is supposed to be an annual celebration of peace and

unity but not everyone is happy. In Kosovo, these campaigners unveiled

what resembled a giant toy building brick representing what they said

was the puzzle that is the European Union. Here in Scotland, it almost

seems like a sense of calm has befallen the nation as it winds down

from the Scottish election campaign and will be EU referendum has been a

huge issue south of the border, it hasn't really gripped voters up

here, but is all that about the change? Today the UK Environment

Secretary and Conservative MP Liz truss was up early, visiting and

East Lothian distillery. She warned Brexit could damage the whiskey

industry among other things. I believe we're much better off in a

reformed the European Union with all those opportunities, all those

access for our markets, opportunities for young people, the

work and live in Europe, that I'm here campaigning for. But on the

other side, Scotland's home-grown campaigning for Britain to leave the

EU is ramping up and stop this man thinks he has a challenge on his

hands but argues things aren't as clear cut as they might seem. There

is a perception that support for the EU in Scotland is widespread. Think

it's broad, I don't think it's very deep. It's one of those issues

people shrug their shoulders at, they know it's a fact of life and

they don't think beyond that. But when they start hearing the

arguments, they will reconsider what they have always assumed about the

EU. But of course the EU referendum isn't just about the headline issues

but the detailed arguments. Today in Glasgow copper Westminster's

Scottish affairs committee came to the city to try and get the of

smoothie key topics, which includes farming and fishing. We find there

is a lack of evidence for the exit, if we had solid information out

there to discuss, make a reasoned and sensible decision on, we would

be going down that route. I think they would be a significant majority

in favour of Brexit. I think some of them will have reservations but I

feel that the micromanagement, top-down management from Europe, has

been a failure. Meanwhile, down south, the already high octane state

of the campaign continues. With the Prime Minister warning that peace

could be at risk if Britain votes to leave the EU. The rows of white

headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth War ceremonies stand a

solid testament to the price this country has paid to help restore

peace and order in Europe. At the same time, ex-London Mayor Boris

Johnson hit back saying the EU's anti-democratic tendencies risked

instability. If we vote to leave TEU, we will not be voting to leave

Europe. Of all the arguments they make, this is the one that

infuriates me the most. In a hotly contested field. I am a child of

Europe. So as Europe Day draws to a close, it doesn't seem there has

been much peace or unity in this referendum campaign and that's

probably how it will continue until polling day.

Just before we came on air I spoke to the SNP's foreign

affairs spokesperson, Alex Salmond, in Millbank.

He was just back from Brussels where, earlier today,

he was setting out the case for remaining in the EU.

And in our Edinburgh studio, the former Conservative MSP

and Leave.EU spokersperson, Brian Monteith.

used to hearing you argue that Scotland is better off as an

independent country, Alex Salmond, not tied to an undemocratic

superstate. That being the case, why are you so keen on the European

Union? Because Scotland can be independent within the European

structure. The key difference between the European Union and the

whispers the arrangement is if Scotland were independent within

Europe, we would control 99% of our taxation base, everything except the

VAT contribution. In Westminster, even with the new powers coming to

the Scottish Parliament, 70% of our taxation base is controlled from

London. That difference between independent from Europe and the

arrangement we have within the it's quite simple. Countries can be

independent within the European Union. I wonder if you are out of

step with many SNP supporters. The beauty leader said there is plenty

of evidence to show almost half of SNP supporters do not want the UK or

Scotland to remain in the European Union. Is he wrong? He is. In the

last poll, two thirds of supporting the position I taken notice of

identical to the majority among Scots, two thirds of them want to

remain within the EU and a healthy number of these people would like to

see Scotland independent within that structure. Brian Monteith, the

challenge you have is that, persuading people in Scotland to

come to your site, it's a much closer race south of the border than

here. It's a challenge we welcome. I think it's fair to say that over the

last ten or more years, the oxygen up the city has been taken by the

issue of Scotland's place in the UK -- oxygen of publicity. Not

Scotland's place in the EU. As people in all parties begin to

discuss more the issues at hand, and the possibility that if we were to

leave the EU because of the Scotland act, the powers on fishing and

farming would automatically come to Holyrood, then there are attractions

which means they can support leading the EU and still support Scotland

eventually leaving the UK. For the Nationalists, it could be a win-win.

Let me put you a point Alex Salmond made today, he said the EU underpins

hundreds of thousands of jobs in Scotland and that it is a huge

single market. That being the case, how many of those jobs that are tied

to Europe would be lost if we left the EU? Actually, I would be honest,

I have no idea. Just as the Germans and the French and the Italians have

no idea how many jobs they would lose if they started a trade war as

some repercussion of Scotland and the UK leaving the EU. There won't

be one because what we know is, they sell more goods and services to us

then we to them, so it is in their interests that not just hundreds,

but tens of hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost on the continent,

and it does seem rich coming from Alex to make that kind of argument

when he was less concerned about the hundreds of thousands of jobs that

might be lost from losing market share from the UK. It doesn't seem a

strong suit for the Nationalists to play. Well, of course, what is

really rich is Brian Monteith, part of a scaremongering edge together

campaign, complaining about scaremongering from his party

colleagues like David Cameron. That's not true. I have never asked

to have an arrangement to guarantee the trading position between the UK

and the rest of Europe, but he was to accept a Switzerland or Norwegian

type deal, or if you do that, you are stuck with the incumbency is

that they except to get access to the single market and the essential

divide in the Brexit campaign is between people like Brian, who see

the UK as some sort of Singapore in the mid-Atlantic, trading with the

world, and those who say, we could do the same deal as we have got, but

we would be out with. If you do that deal, which is possible, you have to

accept like Norway and Switzerland do, all of the incumbency is of the

EU if you want the advantages of access to the single market. That's

the conundrum nobody in the Brexit campaign has come close to solving

which is why I suspect they will lose the election. If you want free

trade, you have to make the rules you are working with, how can we do

that outside the EU? I first of all have the correct Alex on the

suggestion that somehow I am a scaremonger, I was one of the

loudest critics on the unionist side, saying it was a mistake and

what they needed was a popular and positive campaign. The same goes for

this referendum and what I have been advocating in this EU referendum is

that we can have a solution to trade that is not some Singapore solution

but takes us back to the position when Glasgow was the workshop of the

world. He don't have to be part of China to trade with China. You don't

have to be part of the USA to trade with the USA and you don't have to

be part of the EU to trade with EU countries. What is self-evident is

some of the richest countries of the world have different, separate

arrangements. We have a strong hand to play because of hours trading

strength as the fifth largest economy in the world. Look at World

Trade Organisation rules and we can trade with those rules or even get

better trade deals if EE you want them. Can the UK be an independent

country like you would like Scotland to be? Brian has given the game

away. If you want to be Switzerland and Norway and what access to the

single market you do accept... Norway excepts free movement of

labour, which of course most of the Brexit ears, that is anathema to

them. If you want to be Switzerland and Norway, you have to do what they

do. Norway pays money into the EU budget in the same way as the UK

does. That's not true either. Can I correct the point that if Brexit

campaigners, the promise to ship and the Tory party would be delivered

into the hands of the likes of Boris Johnson, who is somebody who doesn't

want additional powers for the Scottish parliament but wants to

reverse the powers we already have, rather like Brian Monteith did when

he campaigned against having a Scottish parliament in the 1990s,

that's the trouble with the Brexit campaign. People who say they are

keen on Scotland getting extra powers, but in the past like Prine

and Boris Johnson, have done everything possible to stop Scotland

getting the powers we need to be an independent country -- like Brian.

You like to play the man and not the ball. If you read any of my writing

even though I campaigned against the Scottish parliament because of its

inconsistency, and when it was brought about, I argued for more

powers, to make it work. So if you're going to bring in history,

you need to read the history, you need to read what people say and you

will know I have been an advocate of more powers for the Scottish limit.

Don't play the man, tackle the issues. This debate could run for

hours and hours. We are out of time. Fresh-faced MSPs have been

arriving at Holyrood for their first day on the job

after the election last week. The result saw the SNP

lose its majority and the Tories They're the first batch of MSPs

to undergo a four-day induction programme, a scheme developed

by Tricia Marwick and one of her last achievements

as Presiding Officer. Here's a taste of what some of those

new MSPs made of their first day It is one thing to have worked in

Parliament before, quite another to be here as an MSP. I have already

been registered so I have my security pass. I have given my

details to the HR team and I am about to go and get logged onto my

new e-mail system. My name is thine Lee Johnson and I

am the new MSP for Edinburgh Southern. This is a lot to take in.

It is a bit like the first day at school. Lots of new things to find

out about. Finding my way around the building. Learning about how to get

the information I need, who is who. So there is a lot to take in.

The opportunity that I have got as the youngest Member of Parliament is

proving that young people are not just the future as a silly cliche

but that we are here now and then important part of the

decision-making process. Brian Little, Central Scotland. I am

most looking forward to putting some of my ideas into the Chamber, it is

great to see some of the people that I got to know getting in. Ruth

Davidson has shown that she is the right person to be in opposition, so

it will be feisty! My name is Alex and I am the newly

elected MSP for Edinburgh Western. It is a bit of a world wind to that

the staff of organised the parliament. There is lunch with the

Presiding Officer, 4-ball Kos... This is the place I have wanted to

be for a long time. In our Edinburgh studio, we are

joined by a couple of new MSPs - Kate Forbes for the SNP

and the Scottish Congratulations to you both, Ross

Thomson you were elected on the regional list for the Conservatives,

did you even expect to make it to Holyrood today?

It has been quite a surreal day. In terms of my expectations, you never

take anything for granted. We work really hard in the north-east of

Scotland to win as many votes as we can. I was always the third on our

party list. I was confident that we could at least go back to three. But

at the end of the day we ended up with five and in doing so, denied

the SNP their majority in parliament. So the region has played

a key role in securing Ruth Davidson as Leader of the Opposition.

Indeed. Kate Forbes, congratulations to you as well. You have more reason

to be confident ahead of this election. But now that you are

there, what did you do first? What Tiger priorities as a new MSP?

It is great to come down to the parliament from my Highland

constituency where I was given a personal mandate from the people of

the constituency to be part of a party that has got a historic third

term in the parliament. We do not have an outright majority but we

still have more MSPs than the Labour Party, the Tories or the Lib Dems

combined. But our job is to deliver for the people of Scotland, and to

do that, we must understand how the parliament works and how to use the

procedures and the systems in the parliament. That is why these four

days have been so useful and will be so useful, as we learn how the

parliament works and how we can deliver for the people of Scotland,

using the systems in the parliament. You must have an idea, I wonder,

ahead of time. Ross Thomson, how did you go about making a difference and

not just making up the numbers? Today was quite an example of it.

There was an exception where I meant some of the new members of the

Scottish Parliament from across the political divides. Myself and Kate

Forbes had some good discussions today and I am looking forward to

working with everyone. I think we can build a consensus within the

Scottish Parliament, we can operate with our colleagues, particularly,

with the named person coming up. Ruth Davidson has made it clear that

this is something upon which we can make a difference and with working

with the Lib Dems and the Labour Party, we can help to change the

direction, not only of the Scottish Government but this country well.

I wonder Kate Forbes, is that on your agenda as well, are you willing

to compromise, DC consensus as the way ahead or is it more complicated

than that? Nicola Sturgeon has been very clear

since the weekend that we want to build a government that is open and

inclusive, and that finds common ground because there is common

ground to be found on things like education, on the environment, on

justice. And it is making sure that together, as parliamentarians

elected by the people of Scotland, weekend of the changes that we want

to see in Scotland. Scotland has moved a long way in the last nine

years but we have got further to go. Over the course of the next five, we

intend to be a government that is open, inclusive and build consensus

on issues that matter to the people of Scotland.

Well, we must be that there. Thank you both very much for your time. We

will no doubt speak you both again in the coming years.

Thank you. 75 years ago tomorrow,

one of the strangest episodes of the Second World War took

place in Scotland. Late in the evening,

a German plane crashed The pilot turned out to be Hitler's

deputy, Rudolf Hess, who was on a secret mission,

the details of which have He flew from Bavaria

straight to Scotland, The wrecked Messerschmitt,

Rudolf Hess flew to Hess survived several attempts

to down him but finally with the plane out of fuel,

he bailed out just before it crashed I am the man that

captured Rudolf Hess. Ploughman David McLean detained

the Vice Fuhrer until the home guard took him to Maryhill

Barracks in Glasgow. There, Rudolf Hess asked

for and was granted a meeting with the Duke of Hamilton,

a senior RAF officer who had been at the Berlin Olympics five years

earlier, and who Rudolf Hess wrongly The captured German pilot had given

a false name to everybody else My father had been to the Olympic

Games, he did not meet Rudolf Hess but he met one of his colleagues who

was advising the regime on foreign affairs and advised Hitler stronger

against starting the Second World War. -- strongly against. My father

did not know Rudolf Hess antilitter stated in prison to this comment and

that he had not met my father before the Second World War.

It was not until the meeting in Glasgow that Rudolf Hess revealed

his identity. This news was reported to Winston Churchill.

The captured German pilot had given a false name to everybody else

but had revealed his true identity to my father and when my father

reported to Churchill at Ditchley Park, Churchill

And then he said, Rudolf Hess or no Rudolf Hess, I am going out to see

the Marx Brothers, and he went out to see the film.

40 years ago, James Douglas-Hamilton wrote what is regarded as the

He believes Rudolf Hess came without the knowledge

of Hitler to try to get Britain out of the war,

not for the sake of peace, but because Germany planned

to attack Russia and Rudolf Hess did not think that they

He had two motors to get Britain out of the war before the attack on

Russia, six weeks before Rudolf Hess landed. And to begin his Lindo Wing

influence upon Hitler. In that famous book, Germany must never

again make the mistake of fighting a war on two fronts. And you could see

that very soon Hitler was going to make the mistake which was warned

against in that book. Britain had to be removed from the war.

A version of events that Rudolf Hess did not contradict.

His comandante put to him the account is made in my book about

him. And he did not deny what I had said.

The book is republished for the 75th anniversary,

with additional information from papers just released under

But even now, other documents remain secret.

Rudolf Hess was convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg and spent

The Duke of Hamilton described his encounter

But the intrigue surrounding it has endured for 75 years.

Now joining me to further discuss the day's news

is editor of the Big Issue, Paul McNamee, and freelance

Thank you to you both for coming in. Paul McNamee, that is talk about the

EU referendum. Lots of passion, you probably heard from the big are

there. But I wonder if the debate has set the heather on fire here

quite as it has south of the border. People are still growing up to it

and waking up to it now that the election is finished.

That is the reason, I think. We have been focused upon that election, we

had been looking to see how it would play out, where the SNP would be,

with the power would be. We have not focused too much on Brexit. I think

that that will change. We were discussing earlier, the possible

turn up. I think it will get more engagement. People like going to a

polling station in Scotland, they have been doing a lot of it

recently! Whatever they get fed up with that?

It is possible. I would like to think not because it is so

fundamentally important, they think people will get engaged.

Andrea, can a referendum settle this issue once and for all?

It depends on the resort, if we have another 55-45 spot across Britain,

it obviously won't because the people that want Brexit will not

shut up about it. If it is a fairly definitive judgment, it could do for

at least what they would call a liquid generation, ten years or so.

-- result. What will be interesting is how different or not different

Scotland's vote is to the rest of Britain. That is where we will see

the line. That is where the interest will come in Scotland, how does it

play out for us? That is a bit of an inch of view to take on it because

by and large polls show that there is a stronger support for the EU

here in Scotland and there is no big figures, nor Scottish version of

Boris Johnson that has come out in favour of Brexit here, so I think we

will look at it in terms of how it affects Scottish politics, which

perhaps is a Nairobi to look at it. Paul, is it possible, is it a fact

free zone, this debate? It is hard to establish the facts ahead of the

independence referendum, I wonder what this one, it is much the same

sort of thing, it comes down to how you feel about it?

Yes, we saw in one of your earlier clips to do with the agricultural

subcommittee, the people have said that they do not know, they do not

know where this local and therefore there is confusion. That is the

case. It will be a gut feeling, people thinking, right, I believe

this is the right thing to do. Because the evidence for it does not

exist, so they will have to go that way. And if it does, chances are, it

will be Remain because people will stay with what they know.

Let us talk about the election result. Especially about the

apparent fault line that has opened up in Scottish politics, the

polarisation, the divide between unionists on the one hand and

nationalists on the other hand. David Torrance in The Herald has

described it as Oscar Isaac show. That has generated a lot of heat

online. Ian Mackay has said that Oscar Isaac show there is an

absorbed comment. It comes with a gun and a mask, Alistair has also

said that it is something that we understand to revert to

constitutional politics. -- Ulsterisation.

I think David Torrance has been a little bit cheeky. We do not have

wars between two communities, by and large it has been a pretty

respectful and reasonable discussion. People have been looking

at the issues. They have really strong views on each side of it but

I do not think you can name it violence. But there is a deeper

point that things are becoming tribal, people are identifying

themselves still but these mental badges of Yes or Noel, to some

extent. I do not think that is the story of last week's election, even

if you can call it a field success of the Tories.

The Tories have shown that there is a left, right debate as well. It is

not just about Robert you want an independent Scotland. -- No.

They were very clever, Ruth Davidson, very likeable, she was

able to somehow uncouple herself from the Westminster Conservative

Party to make it look as though the Conservative Scottish party was not

involved with some of the nastier elements of austerity, cuts, health

and education, therefore she can look progressive, as if she was for

the underclass and for the people, rather than the way that Westminster

conservatism is. She has cannily set up a different sort of feeling

around Scottish conservatism. They cannot understate that. Let us

remember that the proportion of their vote was not much higher than

it had been in recent years. The dead still of a good number or

MSPs, that should be considered. There was some tactical voting going

on as to the location of those MSPs. It is not as simple as saying all of

the union votes went to the Tories. I am not telling you that was not

part of it, but I think that they certainly framed like that. To some

extent, it worked in terms of a political image, product that will

last throughout the term of the parliament and probably can't be

identified that we, I am not sure. Well, we are about out of time.

Thank you both very much indeed for that. Paul McNamee and Andrea

Mullaney. Thank you very much. That is it tonight.

So join me then, usual time, bye-bye.