24/05/2016 Scotland 2016

The former Justice Secretary comes under fire after casting doubt

on the safety of the Lockerbie bomber's conviction.

Kenny MacAskill is accused of double standards for questioning evidence

used against the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing.

Why has Scotland had a "spectacular" year in attracting

And we hear how towns can use their heritage

For seven years as Justice Secretary,

Kenny MacAskill maintained the Scottish Government's position -

that it did not doubt the safety of the Lockerbie

But on this programme last night, he cast doubt on the evidence

of the main witness in the trial of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi.

And Mr MacAskill said there was every reason to believe

Megrahi's conviction might have been overturned on Appeal.

That's led campaigners who've long maintained Megrahi's innocence

to accuse Mr MacAskill of trying to have it both ways.

In a moment, we'll hear from one of those campaigners -

but first, a reminder of what Mr MacAskill said last night.

actually worth use the prisoner transfer application and I did so

because I listened to evidence not simply from victims who were opposed

to a transfer but to the Attorney General of the United States because

it became quite clear when this had been established, the United Kingdom

Government, despite the fact they wouldn't confirm that to me, had

given assurances to the United States, the United Nations and to

Libya as well as to the relatives that he would serve his sentence in

here. I refused the personal transfer agreement but he met the

criteria for compassionate release and on that basis I authorised his

release. We got nothing out of this. Lockerbie got grief and hardship,

the United Nations, the United States, the United Kingdom, Libya,

were all involved in brokering because this was a tragedy that

befell Lockerbie but Scotland was used as a patsy, especially by the

United Kingdom Government. I was a lawyer for 20 years, I've never

heard of a witness in Scotland getting more then minuscule

expenses. The witness was given millions of pounds. That wasn't

known. One of the main witnesses. The main witness. That must cast a

doubt about his evidence. I think that it has been an gone. I do

know... He was pretty significant. The clothes in the bomb suitcase

that linked Megrahi to the bombing, you're not convinced that he did buy

that now? The identification wasn't correct, surely that alone would've

meant his appeal would've been? I think there is reason to believe the

appeal might've been held as what they call unsafe. To Kenny MacAskill

speaking to me last night. Listening to that was the author

James Robertson, who's a member of the campaign group

Justice for Megrahi. Good evening to you. You heard Kenny

MacAskill cast doubt on the evidence of the main witness in Megrahi's

trial, saying there was every reason his conviction might have been

overturned on appeal. Are you surprised to hear him saying that,

saying it now? I'm very surprised, actually what he is saying is not

just what our campaign group said but what lots of people have been

saying for years and years, the evidence on which Megrahi was

convicted was unsafe. As he pointed out in the interview last night, Mr

McCaskill is now saying the opposite of what he said for seven years when

he was cab unit Secretary for Justice, which was the conviction

was safe. He specifically says in his book that Megrahi did not buy

the clothes. Without that identification of Megrahi as the

person who bought the clothes in that shop in Malta, it is impossible

to believe that he would be found guilty. He makes a claim in the book

to say there were other reasons to think he was involved. That is very

strange coming from somebody who said he was a lawyer for 20 years

and he was also in charge of our justice system for seven years. That

is one of the fundamental principles of justice, that you don't find

somebody guilty unless they are found guilty in a court of law

beyond all reasonable doubt and Mr McCaskill has said in his book and

last night in and in interviews left right and centre, he doubts the

safety of the conviction. If you accept, and you do except there are

questions about the witness's evidence about the identification,

it seems Mr McCaskill does as well, do you think that calls into serious

doubt the original conviction? It certainly does. The witness

identification of Megrahi was crucial him of the trial judges

acknowledged that without that it would've been very hard to have been

used the other circumstantial to convict Megrahi on. In fact, the

whole Malta connection that the bomb was actually loaded in Malta, which

Kenny MacAskill maintains is what happens, becomes very shaky without

that identification of Megrahi as the buyer of close. But in his book,

Mr MacAskill undermines the campsites to judgment because not

only does he say that Mr Megrahi didn't buy the close, which the

court city to but he said the coaccused got the bomb on the plane

and the judges quite clearly said there in their summing up that there

is no evidence that he was even at the airport on the morning that the

bomb was supposedly loaded on the plane in both Malta. You might be

surprised using all this now seeing as he prepared to take a different

position in office, but isn't it helpful to your case standing up to

say this, perhaps he feels freer to say it now? It's helpful to our case

if somebody who is cabinet justice, who was cabinet secretary for

Justice, saying what we said for years and years, but there is a

certain amount of double standards here. As I said, while in office, he

maintained completely the opposite. I don't think he can have it both

ways. Either he has changed his mind since he left office or actually he

believed what he is now saying all along, in which case he wasn't being

very strict with the people of Scotland all the years that he was

in charge of our justice system. I think that leads onto the wider

question, what other principles of justice was Mr MacAskill seeking to

uphold? He made clear in the interview ended his book, coming out

tomorrow, that he thought Scotland was used as a patsy by the UK

Government and all of this. So is it helpful that he is highlighting the

broader geopolitical situation, do you think? None of that is new

really, we all knew there were all kinds of international and

diplomatic ramifications going on, we knew that the US in UK

governments had their own interests in reestablishing relationships with

Libya and so on. So I don't think anything he is saying there is

particularly new or particularly interesting, but what it does do I

think I sort of hammering home this idea that Scotland was a patsy to

the UK and US, he is diverting attention away from the one thing

that needs to happen which is that we in Scotland need to get to grips

with this massive failing that the Lockerbie investigation represents

in our own justice system. He consistently says, we cannot do

anything about that, we cannot have an inquiry because we need to be

able to call people in from other parts of the world, but that's not

true. The one thing you can say about the Scottish legal system is

that it is Scotland's and we have the ability to make sure that if it

is going wrong, we investigate that and put it right. But he is

defending the Scottish justice system quite passionately.

He says the police prosecutors, Scottish courts, all acted

honorably. Is that not how you see a? I think

that remains to be tested. There are so many things that are wrong with

the investigation and trial that I think there is severe doubt to that

is the case, Justice for Megrahi has submitted a series of allegations to

the police some three years ago suggesting that there could've been

elements of criminality in aspects of both the investigation and trial.

Some of the things that Mr MacAskill says in his book directly relates to

those very allegations we made three years ago. It seems to be that he

you can't again, he can't on the one hand say that everything was

perfectly functioning and at the same time say that in fact the

conviction was unsafe. So that police Scotland investigation into

those allegations that the group made is still ongoing. Do you think

there is anything that Mr MacAskill is said so far that should form part

of the police inquiry? Hill I think there is plenty in the book that is

directly relevant to those allegations and in fact we have

today reported the contents of the book to police Scotland, saying that

we think it is very important that that forms part of their

investigations as they come to conclude this operation.

We certainly think that if there are Mr MacAskill, as he says in his

book, has information and evidence that hasn't been in a court before,

he should be taking up to the police as a witness. It he doesn't do that,

we think the police should investigate him as a witness. In his

book, he puts forward his own theory as to what he thinks actually

happen. What do you think of the evidence that he puts forward their?

It's an interesting book because, as he said, as a lawyer of 20 years

standing, a trained lawyer and someone who was cabinet secretary

for justice, he doesn't supply a huge amount of back-up information

in terms of references and footnotes to the way he described what

happened. So I would question some of what he is saying there.

Nevertheless, there are certain bits of information in there that I think

the police certainly need to investigate to find out whether the

information that Mr MacAskill says he has actually stands up. OK, thank

you very much. It's been a record-breaking year

for inward investment in Scotland. A survey by professional services

firm EY found 119 foreign direct investment projects

were secured in 2015. The growth rate here was more

than double the increase The survey found 51% increase in

investment for 20 15th in the year before, compared with 20% for the UK

as a whole. In fact, Scotland surpassed South East England to come

second only behind Greater London. The survey found that the greatest

source of foreign investment was software projects. Next, with a

sixfold increase, came business services. And in this city rankings,

Edinburgh landed the third spot behind and Manchester. The US

continues to be Scotland's main investor. Interestingly, neither

China nor India ranks as top ten investors in Scotland, despite both

those countries being a big source of investment for the UK as a whole.

Is this increase in investment because the uncertainty of the

independence referendum is behind us and would continue to deliver

economic growth for Scotland? Well, to answer those questions,

earlier this evening I was joined by Mark Harvey,

Senior Partner at EY. Investment here is more than doubled

the UK as a whole last year. By contrast with the relentlessly

gloomy news we been getting about jobs, about growth, in Scotland,

isn't it? I think it is fantastic news for Scotland, 190 projects have

come here in the past 12 months. The majority of those are from new

investors coming into Scotland which I think bodes well for the future.

Over 5000 new jobs. I think what it demonstrates is that Scotland, as an

economy and a location, is punching above its weight. It's a location

where global businesses want to come and invest. I think we hear what the

conversation about the Northern powerhouse. I think we've got a

Scottish powerhouse in terms of being able to attract great

companies to come and invest in Scotland. What you put this

record-breaking investment in two and what sort of money are we

talking about? Quite significant sums. Organisations who have come to

Scotland, we fasten the question, what actually makes a difference?

There are two clear reasons that they always cite.

One is infrastructure and in particular transport, and I think we

are doing better in that regard. You can always do better, but I

think we are doing well, our airports and road and rail

infrastructure is getting better, and I think the other factor that

they often cite is the quality of people that they

can recruit here. The quality of people coming out of

universities, and indeed the way that universities collaborate with

companies where they come to work in Scotland, they see that as a

positive aspect of coming to work in Scotland.

If you look at Amber University, they are producing lots of good

graduates in this area. We see lots of software projects coming to

Edinburgh. I think we have got a cluster forming in Scotland around

software, we've got some unicorns that we know about with the likes of

sky 's banner, and now we've got inward investors, large global

software companies also wanted to come to Scotland to invest alongside

our indigenous businesses and to use the high-quality people that we've

got coming out of the universities here in Scotland. There was cannot

-- there was claim and counterclaim about investment during the

referendum. As that had an impact on companies? Scotland has been the

number one or number two performing region outside of London. The

question around the perception of Scotland is really important. If we

look back 12 months, we as investors what was important to them and asked

them to compare it to the rest of the UK. 6% of people said Scotland

was their preferred location. We put that down the things like the Ryder

Cup, the Commonwealth Games and the referendum and Scotland was front

and centre of minds on the global stage. But sentiment has dropped

back so only 4% on the global stage. If there is a message going for it

is that Scotland needs to maintain its brand on the global stage. What

countries should Scotland be targeting? India and China do not

rank in the top ten of countries investing in Scotland. The US has

always been the major country where investment has originated from and

we should never forget that and continue to invest there. Scotland

punches the rest of the UK in terms of attracting investment from the

US. When you get countries investing in the rest of the UK and Europe,

are perhaps not investing as much in Scotland, India and China are in the

top five for the UK but are not in the top ten for Scotland. That is an

area where we should focus on building relationships, build trust

so that organisations and companies want to invest in Scotland. Greater

London still attracted more than four times the number of companies

in the whole of Scotland. Is there anything that can be done about that

pull towards London? The statistics this year are a landmark in terms of

the devolution agenda across the whole of the UK and the performance

of the regions. Of all of the growth and foreign direct investment in the

UK, the vast majority has come in regions outside London and that is

the first in a number of steps. That is why it is important that Scotland

is number one region because, as investment comes outside of London,

for us to be an attractive location is important.

Now - Scotland's largest town, Paisley, is vying to be

Back in the 19th century, it was the epicentre

of the textile industry and political radicalism.

After years of post-industrial decline, it's been on a mission

to revitalise its biggest asset - its heritage architecture.

Today Historic Environment Scotland - the new public body designed

to make us all care more about Scotland's history -

launched its national strategy there.

So what lessons might Paisley have for the rest of us?

In the heart of the Scottish Highlands begins the road to sky and

the other islands of the Hebrides. The bluest of skies, the greenest of

forests. Towering mountains and splendid isolation. The charms of

the Scottish landscape are well known. But what if you are living in

a town like Paisley. Once an industrial powerhouse, but in recent

years, fallen on hard times. It is also known for its architecture.

Today, the new body looking after injured buildings in Scotland

decided to take out its three-year plan at Paisley Abbey. It says

Heritage can help drive economic prosperity. The heritage sector is

worth ?2.3 billion to the economy. Scottish heritage is for absolutely

everybody and we want more Scots to get involved in their heritage,

whether that be at a local level or at a national level. It is a product

of Clark and company. In the worst... Clerks of Paisley produced

materials for high fashion Gardening -- garments. The industry changed.

The Clarks factory is long gone. Many of the mills that made Paisley

and international name have been converted. But it can has not had

its troubles to seek in recent years. It has had a reputation for

deprivation and violence. Tell me about the reputation Paisley had and

where are you now? Is he didn't have a good reputation but it is changing

for the better. What we are doing now is celebrating the assets that

Paisley has and it has fantastic assets. It has heritage, it has the

highest concentration of listed buildings outside Edinburgh. An easy

example is right behind us. 18 months ago that was an empty

building, now there are 12 flats, a new restaurant going in the bottom.

It must be difficult for councils who have hard choices to make to put

money into heritage products. This is about investing in growth.

Councils have become used to the idea of having strict financial

circumstances. What we have is use the limited resources we have two

generate income. They are still serving cappuccinos here at 9pm. The

owner of this business says that was unheard of in Paisley. Business is

good. The fourth adventure has just opened. A lot of people are coming

in and bringing attention to Paisley. We have Paisley Abbey, the

Paisley Museum is looking to do a move down the high street. We are

valuing these assets. People are starting to look at that and talk

about that and talk about good things about Paisley. Paisley had a

bad reputation, especially the town centre, now there is such an era of

positivity. We are seeing new bars and restaurants. The university has

been a massive thing. It has really grown. It is bringing a lot of

international students which gives it a university field. The three

year strategy is not just about injured buildings. Maps,

photographs, sculpture are all included. Historic environment

Scotland wants is to get involved from enjoying your local park to

voluntary and community groups. Heritage is all around us. While

others follow his example? Joining me to discuss some

of the main stories of today are journalists Lynsey Bews

and Dominic Hinde... Let's start with our top story,

Lockerbie. A story that never goes away. What do you make of the

fittest intervention? It has caused a stir and it has brought Lockerbie,

the story that never goes away, right back into the headlines again.

He that of confusing contradictions in this book. It seems I am yet to

read it but from what has been there are so far, he seems to be

contradicting what he previously said about the McGrady conviction

and contradicting some of what was said by the Scottish Government

about this transfer agreement. Having had a sneak preview of the

book, he is questioning some of the evidence about the main witness and

still saying the conviction stands in some way. Is it fair he is

accused of double standards here? The weirdest thing about this book

is that he doesn't offer any better alternatives. He has written a book

to save the... What he has not done is present and the evidence to the

contrary. We know the conviction might be unsafe that is not the

issue here. He has chosen to say this without really justifying his

decision. I wonder if some of the revelations are surprising. He was

talking about when they were trying to make the Scottish Government the

involved in the prisoner transfer agreement the Scottish Government

took the view they would try to extract concessions from the UK

Government on their rifles and slopping out. It sounded a little

bit groggy. It does contradict what Alex Salmond previously told us. He

seemed to suggest that the Scottish Government had no involvement in any

of those grubby dealings as you put them. No one is coming out of this

looking particularly good. Certainly not the UK Government, not the US

government, but not the Scottish Government either from some of the

things I have read. Kenny MacAskill would say, actually, this would go

ahead anyway, so we thought we would get these concessions, but it does

sound a little curious. Is it brave attempt to stand up and say this is

actually the sort of pressure we were under at the time? The other

governments were not being honest about this. It is understandable

they were under pressure. The fact it ended up as a Scottish case was

bound to an accident of geography and the fact the plane came down

over Lockerbie and not 50 miles further south. The problem is that

you have a government which doesn't have many hours trying to negotiate

and it is offered a bargaining piece and they tried to make the best of

it. I think it was a difficult situation. There is no reason for

him to sit this now. It seems odd timing. Let's move on to fracking.

Campaigners are considering a legal challenge after approval was granted

by councillors in North Yorkshire yesterday. It might give hope to

some of those who support the industry in Scotland. Did you think

he is right to be optimistic? I am not so sure he is ready to be

optimistic. I think the moratorium will be in place for a good while

longer before the Scottish Government makes a decision on

whether it will press ahead with fracking in Scotland. I think the

move from the energy minister into a different breed, Nicola Sturgeon

previously said she is sceptical about fracking. It is Nicola

Sturgeon who will call the shots on this one. Let's not forget that when

the Tories might beat the opposition now, and in power in Westminster,

you have then got later, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens saying they

are against it. Is the mood music that this will be a permanent ban?

It does provoke quite a lot of passion in people? We might be

looking at a permanent moratorium in the sense that the SNP will not lift

the moratorium because it is politically unpalatable for many of

their new members for whom fracking is an emotive issue. On the other

hand, they will keep the door open in that five or six years, if they

win another term and the argument dies down then perhaps then they

will go for it. Moving on, there were testy exchanges during Mark

Carney's evidence to the Treasury Select Committee. Quizzed by the

food leave campaigner Jacob Rees-Mogg on whether there was undue

influence from the Treasury the governor of the Bank of England

insisted there had not. Those of the judgments of the nine

independent members of the monetary policy committee. The political area

where you would not come into general election, give a G. This is

not a general election. This is still a popular vote across the

country. As the Prime Minister has said, it is more important than the

general election. We have a responsibility to discharge our

remit and we have a broader responsibility to the British

people. Eight other similarities to the conversations that were going on

here during the independence referendum. That is right and I

wonder why Mark Carney was losing patience there with that of

vice-chairman. He is making the point that it is right for the Bank

of England to give excuse than this one. It is not a political view, it

is economic analysis and it would be wrong -- strange if the bank of

England had nothing to say about the economic impact of the UK leaving

the EU. It is not a general election, it is a referendum on a

single issue. We expect to hear from the back of England on this. Does

that make a difference? I think it does to an extent. When it is such a

big decision there is a responsibility for academics and

other public figures who have informed views to contribute and

compiled with recent opinions. It contributes to a good debate. There

we will have to leave it. Thank you for coming in this evening.

Andrew will be here with you tomorrow night, usual time.

Until then,we leave you with actor Burt Kwouk who died today aged 85,

and one of his best known characters, Inspector Clouseau's

manservant Cato in the Pink Panther films.

One moment please. For you. I really congratulate you. It was very good.

Your flight is undone. And so, my friend, are you.

People were afraid of her political convictions -

Dear Mama, last night we had nearly four inches of rain.

People can be seen going about fetching bread and other things

on floating sofas or wooden bedsteads.

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