21/06/2016 Scotland 2016

Boris Johnson goes head-to-head with Ruth Davidson on Europe.

Hello and welcome to Scotland 2016.

With just 48 hours to go, the temperature is cranked up

in the last of the primetime TV debates.

What will sway those who have still not made their minds up?

And travel misery for commuters, as rail workers stage their first

With just over a day to go until Britain's

referendum on EU membership, prominent figures from the rival

camps squared up in the biggest TV debate of the campaign.

Yet again, the issues of the economy and immigration dominated.

There were plenty of "Blue on Blue" attacks.

Brexit campaigner and former London Mayor, Boris Johnson,

repeatedly clashed with his fellow Tory and Remain supporter,

the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson.

Listening to it all was our political

Pretty fiery stuff between Boris Johnson and Ruth Davidson.

Indeed. It was a heated debate as both sides sought to really

consolidate those arguments we've heard from them over the last few

months. I think some of the most fiery and heated exchanges there

were between you Ruth Davidson and Boris Johnson. We have become

accustomed over the last few months to these tori on Tory attacks and

debates and discussions. I don't think that should take away from the

fact some of them are really quite extraordinary. This is a party in

Government which is sharply divided between some rather key figures. We

had Ruth Davidson rattling off a list of senior Conservatives on the

Leave side talking about potential losses after a Brexit. We had Boris

Johnson saying back that she was making extraordinary claims and

talking down the UK in those exchanges. That has a listen to one

of the exchanges between Boris Johnson and Ruth Davidson. Remember

these are two people who are seen as potential extremely senior figures

in the party in the future. Boris Johnson said, will there be job

losses? There might either might not. That is not good enough. That

is not good enough. It hasn't taken that long. How many jobs will go?

They began by telling us they were going to have a positive and

patriotically case and airbags to project fear within moments.

Extraordinary stuff. No surprises that immigration was a hot topic.

Absolutely. We have spoken Sony times over the last few weeks about

the two big issues that they love talking about. The economy and a lot

tonight also on the Leave side favourite subject immigration. Again

some really tense exchanges between the two sides. This time between the

current Mayor of London and the old Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan and

Boris Johnson respectively. On the Remains out, Sadiq Khan was keen to

say that immigration is good for the country and has helped boost and

support and maintain our public services. Some agreement therefrom

Boris Johnson. He said that immigration has also been good for

the country. Perhaps more of an effort from the Conservatives on the

Leave side to distance themselves from you get an Nigel Farage on that

subject. That is about as fire as the agreement between the two went.

Let's listen to what both of them had to say about each other's views

on immigration. EU migrants, up more than 130,000 work in the NHS and

social care. Thank you. Working in our schools and our construction

sector, thank you. More than 1.5 million Brits are employed by

countries owned by EU citizens. The problem is you might start off by

saying how wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been

project fear, it has been project hates. Somebody on the panel

opposite who said only a couple of years ago, in the past we were too

quick to dismiss concerns about immigration, even worse accused

people are prejudiced. Who do you think that was? It was Sadiq Khan. I

do agree with him, I think you need a grown-up approach to this. I am

passionately a believer in immigration, but it has to be

controlled. When you have numbers running at 330,000 net globally,

184,000 net from the EU, 77,000 coming without even the offer of a

job. It is obviously time to take back control. That was an exchange

from the main panel in the debates. There was also a secondary panel of

other political figures and John Ellis, colonists, commentators. On

that was the SNP must you serve has been leading the Remain campaign for

the last few weeks. He wanted to make it clear in no uncertain terms

that he thought that the immigration debate has been extremely improved

taste of the last few weeks. Here is what he had to say and also the dark

of another vote Leave commentator. I don't care if it is unpopular let's

stick with the facts. Migrants contribute more than they take out.

I had been asked to later pressed at the state of the debate over

immigration. The worst of that we saw last week when Nigel Farage

unveiled a xenophobic and frankly bordering on racist poster. Reid

have nothing against migrants, her married one. I think it is rich that

the Remains site I so devoid of any arguments that they have to smear is

as racists. We are not, we love our country. There was a lot of talk

inevitably about sovereignty and about taking back control. Taking

back control was a term we had a number of times from the Leave

campaign. It attracted some groans from the audience at times. They

will be happy that they got that message over. That is why they were

happy to see it over and over again. That final big issue that was

discussed by the final tonight was sovereignty. Whether the UK is

better off being at the table and being part of discussions as part of

the EU are whether we would be more successful if we break off and make

our own agreements and do our own thing. Again, tense exchanges.

Between two Conservatives. Again featuring Ruth Davidson, this time

against the Tory MP Andrea Leadsom. So magnitude is that 60% of our

rules and regulations, from the European Union. Is a long handled

you can do that, you can do this because of the EU. The truth is

there are five presidents of the EU. Can anyone name them? Did anyone

vote for them? No. You didn't vote for them because you are not allowed

to vote for them and you can pick them out either. You're being asked

to make a decision that is irreversible and can be changed. We

are being sold it on a lie. They lied about Turkey balls entry to

Europe and they lied about the European army, because we have a

veto over that. They put it in a leaflet and they lied about this

tonight to. It is not good enough and you deserve the truth. The last

big debate there of this campaign at all those weeks. Did we learn

anything particularly new tonight? I don't think so. Did we see both

sides really consolidate their message and make the argument is

that they had been making very forcibly? Absolutely. In just 48

hours' time we will be mulling over whether or not either side has been

able to convince and not people. So, time is running out

to make your mind up, You would have to have

been on another planet if you had not heard

the arguments on either side by now. In the end, it is a personal

choice for all of us. Nick has been out meeting

ordinary voters, to find out what is motivating them

to vote on Thursday. Our economic security is paramount.

It is stronger if we stay. If we leave, we pitted at risk. We can

only control the number of people that come here from the European

Union if we vote to leave and take back control of immigration. We have

heard a lot about those issues the campaign. About was leaving her

saying would mean for immigration, sovereignty, the economy. It is

difficult to work out what is true and what is the campaign claim. Some

people there are very real issues in their lives which are influencing

their decision. Come on, Oscar. Professional dog walker thinks the

EU leads the way with free movement and we would be walking away from a

deal that works. The global issue about being in a single market is

definitely important for me. Being able to travel with my dog is also

important. I really think that that will make a difference for a lots of

dog owners that like to travel abroad. Art dealer disagrees, he

thinks red tape is proving too costly and damaging his industry.

Right now the EU have a directive to pass but all art is coming into the

EU. If I bought something in New York from a saleroom I would have to

get a passport to bring it into Britain. I can't understand why they

should ask for that. Inspecting his latest project this physics research

at Strathclyde University thinks leaving would have a detrimental

impact on the sciences. The EU funds a lot of academic research in

Scotland and we do well out of the EU funding. Our membership to the EU

allows us to collaborate and to work alongside researchers from all over

Europe. They can come you to work and vice versa. Composer Eddie quit

as a union representative so he could oppose the EU. He is worried

about what a future in Europe would mean for the arts. Cultural services

are lined up for a presentation if the European Union signed up for the

trade and services agreement. These are big threat to anything we hold

dear as collectors benefits to our societies. Robert Hind works from

his home in Glasgow. Easy legal counsel free communications company

operating across Europe and he thinks changes to legal frameworks

after leaving could prove costly. We would lose business throughout

Europe and would not be able to sell our products throughout Europe. The

regulating standard fridge transistor and networks were to

change the nightmare would be 20 different systems throughout Europe

as opposed to the one system which we have with the European single

market. For this changeover and trade unionist the future for

workers is bright at a Leave fault. I believe in the British worker. We

invented the trade union movement. I see no reason to suppose that people

are now going to lie back and allowed the Tories are anybody else

to walk all over them. That is not going to happen. Six voters, six

views, six more things to think about on Thursday.

Tens of thousands of passengers had their travel plans disrupted

today, as ScotRail workers began the first of a series

A total of 15 rail services were cancelled, while the frequency

The dispute is over proposals to operate more

The RMT union say they are concerned about trains running safely,

but ScotRail say those claims do not bear any scrutiny.

The has been a catalogue of incidents with driver only trains.

On a normal day, travelling with the service with the conductor, at no

point have we said there would not be a second person.

Just before we came on air, I spoke to the transport

commentator, Christian Wolmar, from our London studio.

The RMT CV are concerned about the safety of driver only trains. RB

rate to be concerned? The additional evidence that that is the greater

degree of risk. I understand there are concerns about the sort of job

conductors are doing, but I think the safety factor are somewhat

overplayed. The union is seen in the has already been a catalogue of

incidents. Does it not stand to reason from a passenger point of

view that it would be safer if there was somebody via. I certainly think

there is a different reason and I think it makes sense for the railway

companies to have somebody on latrine checking tickets and

collecting fears. That has been the case for many years. But I do not

think there is the situation we are passengers are facing a greater

danger. At night, there should be people. That does not mean you have

do have on the overhaul tame. What is the situation else we are in

London and on the continent? It is very patchy. That is why this is

very strange. This goes back to the days of British real when there were

actually two people in the cabin. There was the driver and a fire

officer. This was in the days of diesel and electric trains, we then

had one person in the. The notion thinking that you could have driver

only operated trains. So that is more fundamental issue here. I think

there is a worry about if you allow some reductions in some trains, then

conductors across the piece would be taken off. That would be a terrible

mistake. That would reduce the level of customer service. And I think it

would make the people feel less safe, even if the reality was that

they were not. Auditions to be a lot of confusion among passengers with

regard to this. ScotRail Passing 60% of passengers already take trains

which do not have a card. That is the point of confusion. ScotRail

I've seen the want the guards to do a different job, as opposed to the

been fewer of them. They want them to be doing something else other

than opening and closing the doors. They want to see them dealing with

customers and dealing with ticketing. We have a similar dispute

in London, on Southern trains, with identical issues. Do you think the

union is right to be concerned that this could be all about

cost-cutting? That is the trump card. I think there is something of

an element in that. The train companies perhaps one to weaken the

strength of the unions and that is why the unions are putting up stuff

such a strong fate. It is seen as stream companies getting a foot in

the door and reading later onto CDs reductions in staff. I think that

would be a big mistake. If they do want people on latrine and the do

want to have the checked. It would be a mistake in terms of revenue

potential of the take away the guards. I think actually

fundamentally, the companies and the unions actually have the same

interest. Another strike is planned for Thursday and again at the

weekend. Who do you think is going to be first to barge in this

dispute? I think train companies are going to be worried about the loss

of revenue and the government in Scotland are going to be worried

about continued disputes. I think it may be train companies which blink

first. The do not want a lengthy dispute, because it will be so

costly. Joining me now to talk

about the day's news are The Herald's Scottish

Political Editor, Tom Gordon, and the broadcaster Liz Leonard.

Welcome to you both. Letters go back to the European

Union and the beat. What did you make of it? It was fairly well

balanced, I thought. I think it was the basic messages, a lot about the

economy on one side, a lot about immigration on the other. I think it

became clear that Ruth Davidson was sort of fee of two mark Boris

Johnson. Whenever she said something, he -- she seemed to be up

there to challenge. Big rather antagonistic. She was rather

dismissive about these three people over the, two of whom we are in the

Conservative Party. There was no attempt at hating it. We do you

think the Conservatives can go after all this? I it very much depends on

how the schools. The act really very evaded. You could be a very messy

aftermath, come what may. They will be very divided after the next

election, but it depends whether the Labour Party can actually get

themselves organised. What did you think of the performances? I think

to a later -- lesser or more degree, they all actually performed well.

Ruth Davidson knew that her target was Boris Johnson. She also

challenged the others. The claims about 30 within the European Union.

She was very fiery. Will that have increased standing here? Yes, I

think it will. It was the biggest political debate that I can remember

seeing her in. It was an extraordinary thing to see. Yes, and

I thought she stood up to it very well. Reports in the newspapers last

night, seeing that the Conservatives should split in the event of a vote

for us to leave the European Union. In a way, there's a logic it. She

has done a lot of work recasting the Conservative Party in Scotland. She

has taken to new levels of support in here. The association with Boris

Johnson in London might undo some of that work. You can see the logic,

but the problem is she stood for election as the Scottish leader five

years ago, to sort it would be a fairly tough sell for her to make,

even if she wanted that. There were quotes in the paper today seeing

there was no substance to this. But maybe she was just putting that out

in advance? She did say this five years ago. But if the country does

vote to leave the European Union, it is a game changer. It is a game

changer for Scotland, as well. It has consequences which have not been

covered in the debate. That was understandable for a niche debate,

but if the vote is for us to leave the European Union it has a

fundamental impact on the United Kingdom and it will no longer be a

united country. It gives a huge argument for another decision about

whether to see whether to go. Ruth Davidson, it wouldn't surprise me if

she said I am not going to do that. Her pitch in the Scottish

Parliamentary elections, which was hugely successful, was vote for me

in order to create a strong opposition in Scotland. It wasn't

vote for me because I am a conservative. The want someone to

hold the Scottish Government to account. In your paper, it was

reported that the First Minister was open to discussions with regard to

Scotland adopting the euro. A few years ago, it was forbidden to talk

about the sort of thing, because they were adamant that we would

still be using sterling. But there is a suggestion that if the

appellant nosedived after an exit from the European Union, they could

look to maybe adopting the Udall is the currency. Is there any surprise

to this? It may be that Nicholas Dudgeon fuels compelled to support

the case. But she said, where they are a vote to leave the European

Union, then the Scottish National party may look at using the Udall.

It was one of the options they would look at. But the CV would much

rather use the opponent. Is there an interesting positioning on this?

Currency was fairly significant in the last referendum. As a broadcast

journalist, you have got people seeing what they think on camera. In

print, you sometimes have to interpret what people say. I think

the report suggests that one and one makes five. The quote for Nicola

Sturgeon is not SNP policy to seek entry into the Udall at the moment.

These are discussions we will have in the future of the vote is no, but

I hope people across the United Kingdom will vote to stay. So to me,

she was seeing, this is something that has to be decided once we

discover the result. It is a straw in the wings. She did not seem

normal. It is a possibility. Thank you for that.

I am back again tomorrow night, usual time.