05/09/2016 Scotland 2016

The UK Government says it wants a "national consensus" on how

Back from our summer break and it's still all about Brexit.

The First Minister says she'll try to work with like-minded

politicians across the UK to try to stay in the single market.

As the Commons gets back down to business, the new Minister

for Brexit says he wants better trade deals but that should come

So just how much influence will Scotland have?

We hear from the new minister whose job it will be to negotiate

But are we any closer to figuring out what exactly that means?

Anyone hoping for more clarity from the Prime Minister might

There won't be any attempt to backtrack on leaving the EU,

And there won't be a points-based system for controlling EU migration.

Well, Nicola Sturgeon has been talking to our political editor,

Brian Taylor, about her hopes for the negotiation process.

He asked her whether, if the UK remained a member

of the single market, she would accept there might need

I think freedom of movement is really important. We talk about it

as being one of the four pillars of the EU but in a Scottish context it

is important for more tangible reasons than the founding

constitution of the EU. We are a country that has an imperative to

grow our working age population in order to deal with skills gaps and

keep our economy growing, so any moves that choke off our ability to

get the best skills and talent from across the EU will be damaging to

our economy. And that is a really important part of the wider economic

debate. But can you understand the argument from the other side?

Britain voted to leave the EU and you are trying to replicate the EU.

You don't want to give away anything. Forgive me but I'm the

first minister for Scotland and most people voted to stay in the EU.

Anybody that thinks as first minister I turn my back on that and

say, regardless of... You know, it's not just the democratic argument,

but regardless of the damage having that decision ignored will do to our

economy and I'm just going to shrug my shoulders, that's not the kind of

minister I am. But going into the UK negotiations saying, we want to be

in the single market, that's not going to happen. I don't think the

UK position is particularly realistic and I don't think it ever

has been. One of those key choices will be, is membership of the single

market for hard economic reasons more important to us, for reasons

that I think in many respects are not well founded, they are just the

right of free movement? That's one of the things the UK Government will

have to decide which side of that fence it is on. All the signals are

it will prioritise restricting free movement and I think that's a

mistake, and I have to honestly argue that case. You've put those

two points firmly forward. I respect that Scotland didn't vote this way.

Theresa May has a mandate in the UK to remove the UK from the EU. I

disagree with it but I don't argue with it. It is much more

questionable that she has a clear mandate to take the EU out of the

single market, because both in the Remain campaigned and League

campaign, key figures made the case that voting to leave the EU did not

automatically mean leaving the single market. -- Leave. I think

doing that will have long-term and permanent, deep damaging effect on

our economy and I think I will be joined in that argument by many

across the political spectrum probably in England and Wales, who

will say, OK, we understand your mandate to take is out of the EU,

but let's not take us out of the single market, because that I think

is much more questionable. The First Minister speaking to our

political editor, Brian Taylor. Well, as the two leaders begin

to set out their priorities, where's the wriggle room -

if any - to negotiate a bespoke Andrew Black has been looking

at some of the key issues. The UK may have voted to leave the

EU, but not everyone is ready to accept the result or alternatives to

a hardline Brexit. None of those is as good as beneficial -- or is

beneficial to us as full membership of the European Union.

APPLAUSE These voters gathered in Edinburgh

at the weekend, to send a message to the Prime Minister that Scotland

wants to stay. But, as Theresa May arrived in China for the Jeep 20

summit of world leaders, she made her views pretty clear. -- Jeet 20.

There will be no second referendum, no attempt to turn the clock back or

get out of this - the UK will be leaving the EU. An Australian

points-based system has been rejected the UK, as she prepares to

go it alone as a leader. Back in Scotland, there have been calls for

an immigration policy separate from the rest of Britain, so is that

possible? There has been president for having separate immigration laws

within Scotland with the Fresh Talent Initiative, which was

introduced in the 2000s. There were separate rules for international

students who came to study and work. Many things are unclear. For

example, we don't know if the UK would have a position similar Norway

in the European Economic Area, which would appear to involve full free

movement, which Theresa May seems to have said she wouldn't want to see

happening. But if a more bespoke approach to the UK were to be taken,

then the extent to which Scotland could have a different approach from

the rest of the UK would depend on these negotiations that would take

place in the future. The Nicola Sturgeon, migration is important,

but so is her desire to keep Britain inside the European single market.

-- for Nicola Sturgeon. That's because there might be consequences

if that doesn't happen. You end up with a deal that imposes tariffs

and, more importantly than that, we have to pretty much abide by

whatever regulations any country we are hoping to export to imposes, so

we will still have to meet European safety regulations, environmental

regulations, labour regulations and so on. Otherwise we won't get access

to the market. But others argue differently. We have to ask

ourselves whether this changes the rules of the game. Whether there are

new opportunities opened up by Brexit. And I think there. It gives

Scotland an opportunity to take an even wider role inside the United

Kingdom and maybe Wales and Northern Ireland, too, and maybe that would

enable us to reflect that we do things bit differently to our

European cousins. Despite the referendum result, some voters are

trying to remain upbeat. But in reality, there is still far too much

uncertainty at this stage to say what might eventually happen.

The UK's Brexit Secretary David Davis says the Government will seek

a "national consensus" on leaving the EU.

In his first Commons statement in his new job,

Mr Davis spelled out a little of what he thinks Brexit means.

Naturally people want to know what Brexit will mean. Simply...

Simply... Simply it means leaving the European Union. So we... We will

decide on our borders our laws and the tax payers' money. It means

getting the best deal for Britain. One that is unique to Britain. Not

an off-the-shelf solution. This must mean controls on the numbers of

people who come to Britain from Europe. But also a positive outcome

for those who wish to trade in goods and services.

Mr Davis also confirmed that he'll be visiting Scotland soon.

Shortly before we came on air I spoke to Michael Russell,

who's due to become Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland's Place

in Europe, the man presumably Mr Davis will do business with.

I asked if they had a date in the diary to me yet. I have lots of

dates in my diary available to me with David Davis. I think he is due

to be in Scotland to appear before one of the Parliamentary committees.

But we have to get on with the process. And will he meet you, do

you think? I would hope so! There would be much point if he doesn't

meet me because we have to start this dialogue. Scotland has to start

talking to the UK Government in detail. Background discussions have

been undertaken and Nicola Sturgeon has met with the new prime minister,

but now there has to be real, substantive, detailed discussion. We

have to discuss how we take forward a situation we did not ask to be in,

and how we take forward the issues, and there are many important issues,

many of which are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and I think it

would be think -- unthinkable that we weren't at the very heart of that

discussion. Do you think you will have some real influence in all of

this, then? At the weekend, Theresa May said Scotland would be fully

engaged and fully involved. If she means those words, then that means

there has to be a full, Frank, detailed discussion between all the

devolved nations in the UK Government. And this is a

touchstone, really, in terms of trusting the UK. If the UK means

anything in these circumstances, it has to mean making sure Scotland and

Northern Ireland and Wales and London are at the heart of this, and

of course Scotland did not vote to leave the EU. So that is a very,

very important part of these discussions. And there's been a lot

of talk about talking, listening, and David Davis said he will listen

to all the devolved nations, but he's also going to listen to the

universities, corporations. In the end, Brexit means Britain leaving

the UK, sorry, the EU. Well, Brexit now means Britain leaving the EU,

and that's more than we knew this morning, because the lack of

definition and clarity was great. I think it is important not to lay out

or you have on the table in terms of negotiations straightaway. But the

very heart of this is who we are. Brexit is not about curved bananas

or fish. It is about our vision of ourselves. It's what we want to

achieve. The Scots, for example, welcome people from elsewhere. We

are not full up. There is a whole range of things that might not be

important to others but they are important to us and at the heart of

us -- that is the single market and being involved in the single market.

What are your red line issues? I know you don't want to put all your

negotiating cards on the table, but access to the single market, is that

a red line? I don't think you talk about redline issues, you talk about

the things that are important to you. We start off saying of course a

single market is tremendously important. It is not just because of

goods and services. It is important because it expresses certain things.

It is a membership, not just access, and the membership is based on fair

treatment of one nation by another, and that includes free movement of

people. You cannot just go and knock on the door and say, I want to buy

something, as if it were a shop. You have to be involved in the process

of setting and regulating it. Much of that appear to be what was being

said today and that's a very serious situation for Scotland and the UK,

and we need to make that point about the single market. What about

immigration? Might you accept stricter border controls as a price

to pay for actually retaining access to the single market? Is not a

question of accepting stricter border controls. A single market is

built upon the four freedoms. That is in goods, services, capital and

people. And the reason for that is that there is a level playing field.

One of the worries is when you hear this debate being about a discussion

of us as a great trading nation, we are a great trading nation. Scotland

is as well. Does it mean abandoning the social protections people of

Scotland have earned as being part of the EU? These are the five

conditions the first minister laid down over a month ago and they are

very important. The social, economic, democratic, so we are not

trading away the rights of workers, for example. But you've heard the

mood music. Theresa May and David Davis have made it clear they want

stricter border controls. You are not going to keep access to the

single market and freedom of movement. That's not realistic, is

it? That is the conundrum and it's difficult. Scotland must articulate

the importance, to say, these things vital to our future. The best deal

for Scotland is to remain within the EU. That's what the people of

Scotland said overwhelmingly. That's not what the UK Government will do.

That's clear. That's not as good, then. That's completely obvious, I'm

afraid. If this is a meaningful negotiation, you will have to give

ground? But we must articulate what is important in that negotiation at

the start of the negotiation. You don't start giving things away. You

start a meaningful negotiation by saying, this is what we want, this

is who we are, and that's the type of discussion we must have. So is

maintaining influence important alongside access to the single

market? Is it non-negotiable? Again, another red Line issue? You keep

putting down lots of red lines! There are none of these on the first

day of discussion. But there are principles that are very important

which you don't want to depart from. The first minister laid out

conditions... You are holding onto all of the conditions that the

status quo but that's not going to be the situation moving forward? You

are expressing them as principles rather than things we wouldn't trade

away and the principles are how we should approach this. The principle

is that the people of Scotland voted to stay. We should recognise that

democracy exists in Scotland. Social protection is important, influence

is important, and solidarity as well is very important. We don't want

Scotland to regress having got to this stage. We don't want people to

start giving things up because decisions have been made elsewhere.

So we have a complex set of negotiations to go into but I'm very

strongly of the view that we go in with our beliefs and our principles

underpinning what we are discussing. And don't you see any opportunity

for tour for Scotland in actually leaving the EU? Fishing, farming?

The Scottish government has done substantial work and published it on

that. I am very happy to listen to those who say we are going to be

better, but we need to see the evidence of that. There was a great

deal of talk today by David Davis in the House of Commons but precious

little evidence. If people say they have evidence of a major benefit, as

the fishing community is saying, and I represent it constituency with

fishing interests. Members are saying these opportunities, are they

wrong? We need to listen to those who voted to leave, we need to

listen to that. But I think the evidence that things can and will

improve and there will be some magical new dawn, the evidence is

not only thin, but nonexistent. The First Minister talked about working

with other UK political leaders who might be of a similar view,, that

any early signs that might happen? She talked about this at the

weekend. It is perhaps a little early to look for early signs. Has

anybody been in touch? That would be a matter and would not talk about

here with you. The reality of the situation is, a lot of people said

they wanted to remain, a lot of people campaigned vigorously for it.

A lot of people believed the evidence of their own eyes that this

is going to be difficult, the Prime Minister herself said at the weekend

there would be difficulty ahead. It could be painful. I think that is

code for, this is not all plain sailing. And we haven't left. We are

not even in the foot hells of this as yet, there is a one way to go and

we need to make sure those who believe in things like the single

market and how important they are and look at the evidence working

together -- foothills. Some people will wonder whether in your heart

you are really wanting these negotiations to succeed. To get the

best possible Brexit deal. And because that would torpedo hopes and

dreams for independence. I do not believe that is the case. We want to

make sure Scotland gets the very best. The First Minister at the

start of this process, immediately after the vote when she spoke to the

Scottish Parliament, said that she wanted to look at all the options

and the convent and labours options in front of the Scottish Parliament.

I am very pleased to take on a role in that to get that best deal but we

have to be very hard-headed and realistic about the interests of

Scotland. Finally, do you have a view on whether there should be a

second referendum on the outcome of the negotiations? Well, not as yet.

I think there is a lot of discussion about what the constitutional future

is going to be. You are not ruling it out? What I am very focused on

now is to get these negotiations started, the talk in detail and I

think we are getting quite close to that. Once that has started, we will

be in a process which day by day, we will be discovering more about a

circumstance, and want to stress this, not of our making. Thank you

very much, Michael Russell. I am joined now by the law lecturer

Andrew Tickel, journalist Katie grand and from London, writer and

broadcaster Paul Mason. Thank you. Katie, it is Mike Russell right to

say that if the UK means anything at all, taking Scotland's concerns

seriously over Brexit is a real test of the union? I suppose he is right

in a way. Scotland's needs to be part of the negotiations because

Scotland is one of the constituent nations of the UK. And it is as the

UK that we will be leaving. So I think he is. I suppose one of the

things you of baffled by business verbiage coming out. We know

nothing, we are no further on than we are at the June. Lots of people

pressing forward their sort of general principles, nobody really

saying anything that is very concrete. I think the one concrete

thing we do know about Mike Russell and the SNP is they want Scottish

independence, that is the only thing we have to hold onto because

everything else seems to be in this nebulous land as you might call it.

And you, we heard from the Prime Minister, from David Davis in the

last 48 hours, how would you read the mood music? Is Scotland going to

have any influence over these negotiations? It is very difficult

to say at the moment. It depends, really. David Davis and Theresa May

a couple of weeks ago stressed the idea that a national consensus,

which must be British, we preconditioned towards any Brexit

deal. The one think we know will be really hard to achieve is a national

consensus. It seems to me there cannot be won. The best case, as

Nicola Sturgeon said today, is the softest Brexit possible to secure

the greatest access to the single market. If you get that national

consensus, eat get a consensus in the Conservative Party, because

they're great swathes including the Minister for Brexit who are not

thrilled with that version. From London, Paul Mason, what is the view

from there? People concerned about what Scotland thinks in this and can

there be a national consensus? We on the left in England and Wales are

very concerned with the way Scotland breaks on this because it to me,

what I have been hearing is of a dream dying. I was inspired when I

covered the Scottish referendum by the belief of many in a radical and

Independent and socially just Scotland. To hear it evaporate in

favour of an unspecified aspiration in a Brexit process is a bit

disappointing. The SNP has to decide whether or not the dynamic it is

trying to play in politics is the dynamic of radical and socially

progressive independence would you want to stay on a right-wing island

with Tories who want to take us back to the Thatcher era? It surprises me

that Nicola Sturgeon wants to go out and listen. Let's do that, but she

has to ask the question, is now or never for independence or a

generation and if we are going to do it, what is the point of teaming up

with Theresa May for a soft Brexit? Andrew Tickel, has he got a point?

It is very unclear where the SNP stands, they are like poker players

who want to keep every card in their hands. How long can they do that? It

depends how long everything takes and the answer is tomorrow and

tomorrow. This is inspired by Macbeth, this negotiation, it is

unclear where everything is. Nobody is articulating anything apart from

fake positions and policies and values. Brass tacks very, very far

away and you disagree about those because the point of values broadly

expressed is that everybody can agree because they are politically

vacuous. Hard choices are not being taken yet. I think Paul Mason is

right, the dream is dwindling away. Because most people in Scotland's do

not subscribe to that dream as was made evidence in the independence

referendum in 2014. I think Nicola Sturgeon is stuck. She has the

fundamentalists who just want independence at any cost, never mind

Brexit or we all go to hell in a handcart, we will go independently.

And they have the wavering unionists who were a bit, who were very, very

upset by the Brexit vote. And who, the day after the vote, might have

voted for independence if that could have meant remaining in Europe,

which it could not have done. So she has got to bring these people on

board if the dream is to live, who naturally don't really conform to

the image which Paul has put forward. Is the listening a holding

exercise? The listening is nonsense. How many times, who do we listen to?

The one to four bit is apparently by the SNP members, each member is

supposed to go and find five more other people. It is a giant echo

chamber. They will all coat each other, it is great. So we encourage

the date to hear Nicola Sturgeon talking about building alliances

across the UK, Paul Mason? The Alliance Nicola Sturgeon needs to be

part is the one that we in Labour and some people in Labour and some

people in Plaid Cymru and some people in the Green Party are trying

to build, a progressive Alliance to make the best of Brexit. The fight

the right-wing Tory agenda. You heard David Davis today clarifying

it in a TV interview, he wants a clean break with Europe

economically. That is the big news today. If you to stay on the island

with that, either you go Independent and you'd not part of the story, or

you join with the progressive forces across the British Isles to fight

the Tories. I have covered the Catalan national question for many

years and it is very convenient to have this independence struggle that

never comes to pass. It never quite happens. And in the meantime, people

obsess about independence and they miss the opportunity to fight with

their fellow working class and the poor and young people across Britain

against the Conservatives. Andrew Tickel, if we are focusing on a good

Brexit. And, what about something like having a separate immigration

policy? Is that feasible? It is feasible in the abstract sense. Is

it likely or possible? No, of course not. We saw today David Davis

articulating the idea that this Parliament is sovereign. That idea

sends a chill up my spine. Of the reasons Paul was describing, I'm not

comfortable with the idea of a Tory dominated, disproportionately

misrepresented Assembly. The chances as were discussed of Scotland

getting power over immigration or the equivalent of Dutch equivalent

of survival on a snowball of help. The SNP reticulated -- reticulated

and honourable idea, looking forward to an idea of the best Brexit

possible, the Wiest worst scenario. People are endlessly slapping off

the SNP for being impractical, separatists. This is practical

politics in the UK and if you cannot be happy with that and you are a

Remain voter with anxieties, heaven help you. Partisanship has taken

over everything. You voted Remain, do you think there are opportunities

for Scotland? I think, it is my views Scotland should remain in the

UK even with the Brexit vote, even though I am a Remain voter, to be

the strongest voice possible in the UK. I also do not want to see a Tory

dominated UK, I do not want Scotland next door to a country it has

nothing to do with and has no influence over. They are our nearest

neighbours, most of my family live there, Scotland has a very powerful

place in the UK. It would have an on powerful place in Europe. So I would

prefer. Scotland also has this lovely habit of trying to pretend

everything is on its side so when asked about the border with

immigration, there will be no border, says Nicola Sturgeon. But

they have two sides and being rich will not be happy with very

immigration in Scotland and having, people will go down to England, that

is not happening either. Is that a possibility or just fantasyland?

Look, I think the point is full Scotland, there are plenty of things

you can do with devolved powers to set socially just policies that fly

in the face of what Theresa May and Boris Johnson are trying to do to

Britain and one is a Labour market. It has been said before that

Scotland has an outward looking position on migration. It could do a

lot to regulate the Scottish Labour movement in favour of trade unions

and higher wages and more open engagement with the rest of the

world. Education policy, you already have. You could do that. But it is

we had to sit here with them behind me, being the person in the studio

most enthusiastic for following the story of radical cultural and

national independence. Because Yucatan played on the British Isles

a completely different kind of economy and society -- you could

play out. We have to leave it there, but thank you very much.

That's it for tonight, thanks for watching.

Gary Robertson will be here tomorrow night at the same time.

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