19/10/2016 Scotland 2016

As Scottish ministers meet in Brussels, what are the options

for protecting Scotland's place in the EU?

Good evening and welcome to Scotland 2016.

There was a two pronged Brexit attack from the Scottish

In Europe Mike Russell and Fiona Hyslop become the latest

Whilst in Westminster the SNP tried, and failed, to get the government

to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the UK.

So we've known for some time what the Scottish Government wants

Things like membership of the Single Market,

free movement of labour, control over agriculture

But, of course, it's not just about trying to influence

the Prime Minister's hands in negotiations.

It's also about getting Europe on side.

And today, Scottish Ministers travelled to Brussels

Separately, the SNP led a debate at Westminster on the status of EU

Andrew Black reports on the events of the day.

Emmanuel was born in Paris, but has lived in Scotland since the early

80s. She considers this place home. Almost four months after Britain

voted to leave the EU she's concerned about the future.

I'd consider myself an EU citizen. And that's what gives me the

legitimacy soon be here. In a few months, in the run-up to the

referendum, the language in public discussions changed. To capture all

of us as EU migrants. That was quite a shock. Because with that kind of

appellation came the implication that we weren't really legitimate

residents in this country. Suddenly I found myself

illegitimate. It was very marginalising. Emmanuel

hopes her job as an academic at Glasgow Caledonian University mean

she can stay. She is taking nothing for granted. I

think I'm reasonably safe. I have a permanent job. So, yes, I did think,

will it mean that I will have to leave or I'll have to take steps to

be allowed to remain so I've considered applying for a permanent

residency. I have filled in the form. The envelope is sealed and

ready to go. That something is holding me back.

In the Commons today be cheated of EU citizens took centre stage. As

the SNP lead a debate on the issue. Home Office statistics published

just over a week ago show that hate crimes have soared by 41%. Madam

Deputy Speaker, I would suggest that this is a symptom of the negative

and xenophobic rhetoric used by some, not all, by some in the lead

to the referendum. This has had a major effect in legitimising hate

crime on the part of a small but violent local majority minority. The

SNP called on ministers to protect the rights of EU citizens living in

Britain. The Government has been clear that it wants to protect the

status of EU nationals in the UK. As the prime Minster has made clear

the only circumstances in which that would not be possible are if British

thousands rights and other UU members it were not protected in

return. -- British citizens rights were not protected in return. The

position has not changed. I'm sorry that the SNP has not included this

reassurance and emotion. But people like this woman who moved

from Poland ten years ago is worried.

I'm anxious. I'm scared what's going to happen. I don't have citizenship.

You know, I didn't need it. Second thing was, it's expensive to get.

Meanwhile Scotland's Brexit minister was in Brussels lobbying for

support. Mike Russell reckons Scotland would be able to stay in

the single market even without the rest of the UK.

I think there are those pathways. It's possible to pan out those

pathways and get them implemented. That's what we're looking at. The EU

as an institution is always creating how it works with other bodies. We

want to make sure the imagination and creativity I replied.

Not just ideology. As talks continue the date for Britain's Exeter EU

draws ever closer. -- exit from the EU.

Earlier I spoke to Ryan Heath, Politico's Senior EU

Brian Heath, we had to Scottish Government ministers in Brussels

today. What kind of reception is the Scottish Government getting?

They are getting a warm reception but a realistic one at the same

time. I think that when the ministers arrive, when they publish

articles, they are listened to. But, at the end of the day, it's still

the United Kingdom. Therefore Theresa May sort of gets

the first preference when it comes to hearing from how the UK plans to

handle Brexit. I think Nicola Sturgeon's government is about as

organised as it can be. But the hands of people in Brussels are

tied. London has to make the first move. So they can't say anything

concrete or give a nod and a wink to the Scottish Government?

Exactly. The first preference of most people here in Brussels is that

the UK didn't vote to leave in the first place. Then the fray soft

Brexit. They'd love you to stay in the single market if there was a way

to do that. More people are waking up to the possibility, even the

likelihood, that there is a hard Brexit. A full exit and figure the

new leisure after that. It will be an uphill battle for the Scottish

Government. Is it not possible that certain

parts of the UK could come to separate deals. We've already seen

suggestions that London could remain in the single market. Do you think

that idea is being thought about in Europe? Is this sympathy for that?

I think that at this point of the pre-negotiations, as it were, all

options remain on the table. Legally speaking, it's up to the UK

Government to consider what arrangement it would like to

negotiate. Everything is certainly possible. It would be odd if there

was a deal for London and not for some of the other devolved nations

and regions. RBC, Scotland is first in a queue there. But I think it's

not likely that Theresa May and her government will go to to take. It is

possible but other arrangements are more likely. For example, Theresa

May might choose for 100% break, so that she can talk to her hardline

supporters to the Ukip rotors, to those who wanted a leave out and

say, I delivered for you. While negotiating some kind of transition

that is a little bit more like what Scotland is hoping for so there is a

link to the single market. What do you mean by a transitional

arrangement? Think of this as a soft landing. The

UK is out, but it would mean that it's not jumping off a cliff. It

would give the UK, including Scotland two or three years,

possibly more, an opportunity to transition out of all of the EU's

arrangements. You could still have that acts as to the single market.

Things might be very different politically once those three years

are up. It might be possible to argue about point that the UK, or

Scotland in particular, likes that arrangement. They would negotiate to

keep that over a longer term. I think Theresa May has a lot before

her before those options are really considered right in front of her

nose at the negotiation table. You don't think anything will be

done and dusted in 2019? The only way to do that is if you

have that hard Brexit where there is a clean cut. There is no way to do

the tricky line by line negotiations in those two years. It's took seven

years to get this trade deal close to finishing, the UK relationship is

a lots deeper and more complicated. There's no way that's going to

happen in two years. You have to go for the clean break and work back

from there. Do you think some way down the road Theresa May could

appease both the hard Brexit rotors and some of the remain as?

If you look at some of the language she is used at the Tory party

conference she is aiming at some kind of not domination of this year,

but she's trying to appeal across different parts of the political

spectrum. It would be consistent with that if she was trying to find

a way that pleased hardliners and those who are somewhat regretting

the vote in the first place and giving them a bit of a stake in the

future. I wonder, given that there are many

anti-EU parties throughout Europe, would it not be in Europe's best

interests of play hard with the UK and say this has to be a hard

Brexit? Absolutely. You heard that from

Donald Tusk. He said almost those exact words last week. Hard Brexit

or no Brexit. They are busy keep that as they were opening line. The

negotiations with the EU were very pragmatic. Most keen observers

realise that those opening positions are not going to be where the final

deal is struck. Ryan, thank you.

I'm joined now from London by the SNP's Philippa Whitford,

Philippa, given that European leaders have made it clear that they

and only negotiate with the UK Government what was the point in

your Brexit Minister's visit to Brussels today?

I think it's important that they understand the view in Scotland. We

clearly voted to remain and want to make that clear. We consider

ourselves European and are looking for an imaginative way of achieving

that. What tangible difference will it make? It's all very well to get

sympathy from people in Europe, but speaking to MEPs isn't going to make

a difference. You have to speak to everyone. You speak to MEPs. We are

speaking to political members within different parties within the EU

itself. It's really important that Scotland is there. One of the things

is, as was said by your previous interviewee, is that they do look

upon Scotland friendly. They see that we voted in a totally different

way. It is the UK that is a member state. That is the situation winner

at the moment. Having spoken today, we see that they will be no real

influence over negotiation process. You have to build that influence.

It's important that our ministers are out there. If we don't go

anywhere then it's tough, it doesn't matter how Scotland voted, I wonder

why you bother voting, you're coming with us. As Scotland's any Labour MP

while you in Brussels trying to secure the best deal for Scotland?

We do have representatives of the Council of Europe and the former

Chief Whip, Rosie Winterton was spoken to our social Democratic

colleagues at the European Parliament at the moment trying to

discuss the best way forward for the UK and build those alliances.

Philippa is absolutely right. You've got to build those relationships,

you got to make sure the message gets across. From what we've just

seen from DVT at the start of this piece and from your experts in the

European Parliament, nobody really knows where we are. The difficulty

with having Scotland in the single market and the UK not in the single

marketers this issue of immigration and borders. The free movement of

people. You can't have one without the other. There are a whole host of

issues to be dealt with. It's right that there are people talking to

other people and building those alliances. It's quite clear that

when it comes to final decisions is going to the member state that the

European union will deal with. It's absent the red for the Labour Party

the Liberal Democrats and the SNP to be talking to our allies in Europe.

The problem with the member state and the UK dealing with this, Number

Ten has indicated Scotland would not have a separate deal for membership

of the single market nor would it have new powers over immigration. So

it seems like Nicola Sturgeon's threat of a second referendum is not

being viewed as credible. Whether it is being viewed as credible or

whether Number Ten doesn't care, that is a possibility. But we keep

working on this and keep bringing ideas forward. The EU is pragmatic,

they accepted the unification of Germany and 18 million new members

overnight. They have worked out solutions before and it is important

we try and convince them to try and work out a solution now. One of

those solutions is and we read about that in the newspapers, the City of

London could work out a separate deal and have membership of the

single market, if that happens, surely that would have to be done

for Scotland as well? The problem with having it on a nation state

basis, you have to take the rules and regulations that go with access

to the single market. One of those big rules and regulations is free

movement and people. If you have a different immigration policy in

Scotland, you have to do have a border with England. I'm not sure if

that is desirable or workable. We have to find a solution where

Scotland can be part of the UK single market, but also get the

advantages of the EU. Nobody knows what it looks like, but it would be

wrong for Scotland to turn away from the UK single market in order to

join the EU single market, when the UK single market is more important.

Scotland is looking for a separate deal, and it may work differently

from having a physical nation state, being in a different place that the

UK would not be. What about financial services companies in

Scotland, what about securing a good deal for them? They are doing it to

be given a good deal. I have raised this in the House a number of times

this week, not just protecting our financial services, but oil, food,

gas and drink and wonderful higher education sector. These are the

arguments we need to be having on the kind of things the Prime

Minister needs to take on board. It shows where this Prime Minister

differs from the previous Prime Minister. Labour brought a different

motion and protecting the EU in a House on the 6th of July. The

Conservatives abstained on that so it went through in favour. Today the

SNP brought an identical motion and it was voted on and the

Conservatives voted against it. I don't know if it is a shift in

thinking or a tactic in Parliament. It shows EU nationals look as though

they will play a bargaining chip. I think it is completely wrong.

Philippa, talking about that debate this afternoon on EU nationals, you

are asking the government to ensure all EU nationals living in the UK

retain their current rights. Isn't that unreasonable until we get a

reciprocal agreement from the EU on Britain's living abroad. No, it is a

Briton who have created the instability, so we have to make the

first move. If we had been gracious, Ed Davey or week after the vote, and

said everyone who is already here can stay, the other countries in

Europe would have responded. When I have met with the German ambassador,

politicians in Berlin, they said it never occurred to them they would

ask British people to leave. It is us that should be gracious and make

the first move. Why do you focus on EU nationals living here, surely you

should be standing up for Scottish people living abroad and that should

be your priority? The best way to achieve security for them is by us

being gracious. The people I am in contact with who live in Europe,

said there was no comments, no sense of insecurity until we started using

the language that there would be this bargain backwards and forwards.

It is up to us, if we had made that confirmation right at the beginning

for people who may have lived here for years or decades, contributing

to our society, then we would have done the best to secure our

citizens. People are stuck in limbo, coming to see me who cannot get a

mortgage, cannot get business loans because lenders will say, I cannot

guarantee you will be here for 25 years. Iain Murray, we had the

Chancellor, Philip Hammond, today indicating that highly skilled

workers may be exempt from the government's planned immigration

controls. But that satisfy you? It is right that the government should

come out and said the people living here in the UK should be allowed to

stay. Anyone over five years who have been here from the European

Union, I would encourage them to go for permanent residency before we

lead the European Union. It is critical to our economy. 25% at the

University of Edinburgh... That is expensive to do. It is, but the

government should come to some accommodation to enable that to

happen. If they are not going to be explicit in that, equally, people

who are living abroad from the united kingdom, should be protected.

It is just the right things to do morally. People are contributing to

our society and people who have been living here a long time, should be

allowed to stay. Thank you both very much indeed.

Now a German U-boat which sank almost a century ago has been

discovered off the south-west of Scotland by engineers laying

At the time the submarine's crew claimed that they had abandoned

the boat after being attacked by a monster with "a horny

The waters of the Irish Sea, off the coast of Galloway. During World War

I, German U-boats use this as their hunting ground and Royal Navy ships

attempted to find and destroy them. Now, engineers laying a power cable

between Ayrshire and Liverpool say they have found the wreckage of one

of them. This may be UB 85, which was sunk. One of 12 German and

British World War I submarines which met their end in the Irish Sea.

Sonar images show it is virtually intact. We did really detailed

surveys of the sea bed so we can look out for obstacles in the way

and boulders and things. What we didn't expect to find was a German

U-boat. Probably one of the amazing things I have ever come across in my

construction experience. It was should by HMS coreopsis. The German

said they had just survived a fight with a sea monster. That explanation

just muddies the waters, says this historian. The submarine is caught

on the surface at night recharging its batteries. It saw the patrol

ship coming, it attempted to do a crash dive to get away. The young

officer whose job it was to shut the conning tower hatch, didn't close it

properly so when the submarine was underwater, it rapidly started

flooding from above. They had no option to blow up the compressed air

and bring the submarine to the surface and then they had to

surrender. It seems the idea of a watery creature defending Britain's

shores, may have been sunk. I like the idea of Nessie doing her bit for

the war effort, but the real sea monster is the U-boat.

Joining me now to discuss today's news we have

Stephen Naysmith from The Herald, and health journalist Pennie Taylor.

Brexit first of all. We have the Scottish Government ministers in

Brussels today. Are these meetings changing anything? I think it has

got to be done, we have got to have a representation from Scotland in

Europe to try and make our case. But I think, what I understand, the mood

in Europe, they want to make an example of the whole of the UK and

there are interests in the European Parliament that wouldn't favour

being nice to Scotland perhaps, because perhaps Spain, with its own

independent movements like Catalunya, doesn't want there to be

any glimmer of hope for breakaway nations. You could look at that

different way. You could say it is in Spain's interests the UK stays

together and doing a bespoke deal for Scotland to remain in the single

market, might be in the interests of keeping the UK together? Otherwise

you will have a real confrontation. Fiona Hyslop and Michael Russell

were over their own behalf of the Scottish Government, arguing against

the hard Brexit. Hard Brexit will cause problems in terms of

Scotland's relationship with the of the UK. There was a treat I saw

yesterday, saying had there been a very narrow vote to remain, and then

the people who had voted to remain, we would pursue a hard remain, open

the Borders, have the euro and so on, there would be outrage. So there

is a fair point to be made, there isn't an mandate with quite a narrow

EU Brexit vote for a very hard Brexit. What about the position of

EU nationals, that was the subject of debate this afternoon. Is it

reasonable to say to the UK Government, basically show their

negotiating hand, isn't it better to almost use it as a bargaining chip

in order to secure the rights of a Scots living abroad? Friends of

mine, Scots living abroad, they are trying to do everything they can to

persuade people to help them. They are living in Europe, they have

businesses in Europe. I am uncomfortable with using people like

that as bargaining chips, but I suppose it happens. We had Theresa

May in Parliament today, I don't know if it is a slip of the tongue,

she said negotiations could go on for two years or more. There will be

lengthy negotiations over the course of those two years and more.

Parliament will have its say in a variety of ways, not least of course

to the great repeal bill. I don't know if it is a slip of the tongue,

but even after 2019, do you think we will still be discussing our exit

from the EU. I heard her rowing back from those comments this evening.

Once we trigger article 50, we don't have much more than two years. I am

not sure what she would be referring to. Maybe it indicates a slower role

into triggering article 50. That raises questions for Nicola Sturgeon

who has this second referendum consultation going on. At some point

if there is to be a second referendum, the SNP will have to say

these negotiations have gone far enough, it is not working for

Scotland, we need a referendum. There is a tactical decision on when

you make the call. A headline today, Botched Brexit people across Europe

are seeing Billy Maka saying it is a mess. The US, the final debate in

Las Vegas. What do candidates need to do now? I don't know what they

need to do, but I suspect I know what will happen. Tonight will be a

bit of a disaster, I suspect we will hear Donald Trump go on the attack

and save the election is raped. I watched the last president debate at

JFK airport in New York, it was interesting watching people's

reactions to it. I couldn't find from all the people I spoke to, I

couldn't find the Donald Trump voter. But Michael Moore, the

film-maker has released a film called Trumpland to night. He said

you cannot be complacent. He said he was in the UK when Brexit happened

and he said anything is possible. He is a Bernie Sanders supporter, he is

no fan of Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump's back is against the wall and

this debate is likely to be the nastiest. He is falling back in the

polls, so that might suggest he is not going to be the winner some

people think he is. We know how reliable polls can be with maverick

candidates. But one of the things, he has not been able to make any

capital out of the Hillary Clinton campaign director e-mail leaks,

because he keeps shooting himself in the foot with things that dominate

the news agenda, apparent misogyny. But the worrying thing is this

focusing has been playing on and is likely to use again tonight, about

the vote fixed. That is worrying the Democrats. They looks like it could

get dirty again, Donald Trump has invited President Obama's estranged

half brother as a guest? For what purpose, nobody knows. We will see

that if we watch it it is about 2am here. It is happening in Las Vegas.

Hillary Clinton has invited some billionaires who might be used to

cast doubt on the Donald Trump's acumen as a businessman. It is going

to get dirty. They say you should be positive and not to go on the

attack, but listening to some of his supporters after the last debate,

they seem to lap this up? Ordinary Americans are horrified at this

election campaign, it has been pretty nasty and long, and I think a

lot of them will be glad when it is over. Do you think the moderator

should challenge Donald Trump on the claims that the election is raped?

Yes, you can raise conspiracy theories and they can take legs and

run. Whether you try and introduce some kind of rationale or not. If

Donald Trump's back is against the wall, I suspect he will not hold

back. Casting doubt on the authenticity of the election is a

dangerous path and against the American tradition. We could see him

defeated but not his supporters at accepting the result. The tradition

is you elect the president and everybody gets behind them. We will

see what happens, thank you very much indeed. That is all to night, I

will be back again at the same time tomorrow night when we will be

talking about that.