24/10/2016 Scotland 2016

Nicola Sturgeon has said she feels deeply

frustrated by talks with the Prime Minister over Brexit.

So, what now for Scotland's place in the negotiations?

And how will leaving the EU impact on Scotland's scientific

A very frank exchange of views, is how Nicola Sturgeon described it.

Raging might have been the less diplomatic response.

The two governments appear as far apart as ever after today's meeting.

The First Minister continues to demand a deal which will keep

And the Prime Minister insists she'll adopt a UK

negotiating position, whatever that might be.

All the leaders of the devolved administrations agreed

they were none the wiser after today's meeting.

And shade's resident cat has probably seen and heard a lot in

this time but today he seems to have trouble getting into the Brexit 's

meeting. And if you run a devolved nation like Nicola Sturgeon this was

the place to be. Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones also arrived

for talks with Prime Minister Theresa May as did Arlene Foster who

heads the Government of Northern Ireland. They each laid out there

demands to the Prime Minister before she properly starts the Brexit

process. Nicola Sturgeon want Scotland to remain in the EU single

market even if the UK does not but she expressed frustration as today's

meeting. I am hearing a warm words from the UK Government but not yet

seeing those warm words backed up by substance or action. That is what

has got to change in the weeks ahead. I am going to continue to

conduct the Scottish Government's contribution to this process in good

faith. We are going to try as much as we can to steer the UK as a whole

away from a damaging hard Brexit. Carwyn Jones also wants full access

to the single market even though Wales waters to leave the EU. He

said any deal must be backed by every part of the UK. We do not want

to be in a position that this disagreement as the UK is

negotiating ought to be in a position where devolved restrictions

could not support the final Agreement. I start from the position

of let's see what we can do to make sure the UK has a stronger hand.

Arlene Foster has argued for free movement for British and Irish

citizens across the post Brexit border. She said getting involved in

the talks was vital. What is important for us is that we are part

of that process so that that there are unintended consequences that

appear for Northern Ireland is that we can certainly be part of trying

to deal with those unintended consequences. That is what is

important for us in Northern Ireland that we do what is right from the

people of Northern Ireland and for the future of Northern Ireland.

After the meeting Theresa May headed to the House of Commons to update

MPs. Statements, the Prime Minister. Scottish ministers have accused the

Prime Minister of not listening to their concerns. Theresa May said

that is exactly what happened today. She also criticised the plans for

another Independence Referendum. All I would say when he refers to the

possibility of yet another referendum in relation to Scottish

independence, I suggest that he wants to ensure the future

prosperity of the Scottish economy, he just looked at the fact that

actually Scotland has more imports and trade arrangements with the rest

of the United Kingdom than it does with the European Union. It is first

and foremost should desire to remain part of the United Kingdom. Larry

eventually - into number ten. Maybe he has figured out the plan for

Brexit. Andrew Black there.

I've been talking to two veterans of that campaign

for their take on the progress John Edward who was a spokesman

for Scotland Stronger In - and Tom Harris who was Director

of Scottish Vote Leave. Tom Harris, exactly four months on

from the referendum result, do you think we should have been further on

in the negotiation process? I do not think so particularly. This Article

50 is going to be triggered by the end of next March that Smith and the

deadlines that most people envisaged. The really is not a hurry

is what most people are saying. This is a big move, we need to think

about this carefully rather than speed them up. Do you not understand

why people might be frustrated? We are going to be talking about

science tonight. There are lots of scientists soon they are buried her

future funding is coming from, there are lots of investment decisions

that companies might want to take, and restart the stage do not know

what the UK Government's negotiating position is. I totally understand

the frustration. If the Government were to come out tomorrow with more

detail of the negotiating position I would welcome that. But we are

talking here about democracy. The country made a decision in June, a

very important decision, that has massive ramifications, and although

I sympathise with scientists and academia, with businesses, the most

important thing is that the democratic will of the people of

Britain is enacted. That does take time and people are going to have to

be patient. John, what did you make of the talks today, do you think

more should have come out of them? Yes, everybody had a right to know

from back in January what it is people think Brexit means. Of course

it is raked the democratic will of the people is recognised. I accept

that. The trouble is all very well saying it but if nobody from any of

the devolved administrations or any other walk of life can get any sense

of what that means it does not help. Simply saying we will not sure our

hand because it might give the other side an advantage, this is not a

game of poker, this is a straightforward negotiation between

support of the 27 courses partners. But we do know what Brexit means,

these being out of the European single market and having control

over our own borders. So we are told that is not what some people ten

Downing St one. This is not a party political issue. This is about what

people are going to get from this process. We are trying to work to

get the best out of us in terms of recognition of qualification,

national security, movement of people, funding, environmental

standards, all these things, and collaborates to know what is being

put on the table by the Government of the day. Tom Harris, is not the

entire reason we have in this mess is that unlike the Scottish

Independence Referendum, where there was a White Paper, we do not know

what the plan for Brexit was? There was no agreed document about the way

forward. You are the one saying it is a mess. I would object to that

description. We are in a pre-negotiation period. I do not

think it is this is sadly a mess. But the balls one campaign was not

the Government. The Scottish Government to just about liberty

tone -- the Leave campaign was not the Government. There was no White

Paper to be enacted by any Government. This debate about what

Brexit actually means, most orderly voters, unlike politicians,

understand what leaving an organisation means. It means first

of all you do not get a seat at the management committee, you do not pay

the membership fee anymore, you do not have to obey the rules of the

club. There were guidance about whether there was a middle way,

could he be in the European economic area, be like Norway? There are so

many fundamental questions that have not been answered. Yes, and as you

say it is only four months. It'll be another two and a half years before

we finally leave EU. I know people are frustrated but given that we

have been in the EU for 40 years, given how comforting as it will be

to extricate ourselves and to negotiate a new trade deal, it would

be massively optimistic to assume that four months from the vault we

would have a huge amount of detail about how that is going to look.

John Edward, what do you think about Nicola Sturgeon's negotiating stance

with the UK Government? When reported that was clear the question

was should the UK remain a member of the EU? It was not should the rest

of the UK remain a member and Scotland have a different deal. What

the first verse six to do for Scotland and for her party members

is entirely her rights just as carbon jewels were seeking to do, as

was Arlene Foster Martin McGuinness. That is not the issue, it is not

party political, people are trying to identify what things they can

hold onto. We were told all these things were going to happen after

the referendum. It is not strictly that nobody from Leave was coming up

with ideas because there was a certain bus with numbers on it, men

and pricing of whisky, all sorts of things where there was no evidence

and juice and on the other side things have started to happen which

we warned off, Microsoft, Nissan, all sorts of people. It is a small

drip, drip, that is why they do have some sense of what is being

negotiated. Let us stick to the negotiations between Scotland and

the UK Government. Tom Harris, is it not fair enough Nicola Sturgeon to

see Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and that should be

respected? There should be a separate deal for Scotland. Scotland

did not vote for Scotland to remain, Scottish voters voted for the UK to

remain by 62-38%. Your site could only muster 38%. We lost the debate

in London as well and the Northern Ireland. We as a country of Scotland

agreed in 2014 to stay in the UK and that meant that certain decisions on

future were going to be taken on a UK basis, that included this EU

referendum. There was no ambiguity. Even on a tactical front is Theresa

May does not give some grounds does she not risked triggering a second

Independence Referendum? So we are told. My view is we have spent the

last 20 years conceding at every turn to the Nationalists. From what

I can see from this perspective that has not exactly shored up the

strength of the union. John, as is practical for different parts of the

United Kingdom to come to different deals? You cannot have Scotland and

the single market with the movement of Labour and the rest of the UK out

of the single market without some kind of hard border? There are

practical problems. There are practical problems already. We

raised the issue of Ireland during the campaign and were laughed away.

It is not unusual for other countries in the States of European

Union to have differential agreements. Look at Flanders in

Belgium. At the Prime Minister, does not matter from which party, says

the devolved will have their rule from start to finish, they have to

have a role. That is the purpose of the Scotland Act and treating the

Assembly. Tom Palmer Southers spent six months going around Scotland

telling us one of the great upsides of leaving the European Union would

be that more power to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Now we are

told the Scottish Parliament will not get a look into this at all. We

need to leave it there. Thank you very much.

It's not just Nicola Sturgeon who's concerned about a lack

Tonight the principal of Glasgow University

says it could imperil Scotland's universities.

The Scottish Government's chief scientific adviser

says it's worrying, and the University of the Highlands

and Islands is having to put major projects on hold until the funding

Our science correspondent Kenneth Macdonald has this report.

Scottish science punches above its weight. We get a bigger share of the

UK science budget than the size of our population might suggest. Why?

Because we are good at it. The Scottish Enlightenment developed

great minds including James clerk Maxwell, who influenced Einstein.

More than 1 billion euros has been attracted from the EU in the past

ten years. In European funding as in the UK Scottish research attracts

more than our population share. The current programme, high-rise and

2020 has brought us almost 300 million so far. But includes support

for arts, humanities, social sciences as well although much of

this money would have began its journey in the UK economy. While

Brexit may mean Brexit what will it mean for Scottish research? Perhaps

even more than all those euros. Two in the top 100, four to five in the

top 200, that is an asset that we do not want to lose and it could be in

peril. In part that is about funding. The most important thing is

the free movement of people. Free movement of people to attract

talented researchers to Scotland is key to maintaining our leading

position in the world. It is of course worrying for us because size

does not respect borders. I know from my own research background. It

is true in many fields of science. Much of it involves international

collaboration. Collaboration is important to the scientific

community. The countdown to Brexit is yet to

begin but its effects on research are already being felt in many

respects. One university thinks it has the most to lose. One example,

we are waiting on the go-ahead to start a major project with EU

funding. About ?22.9 million -- 20 2p. The soot skills gaps in the

labour market in the Highlands and Islands and a large part of that

will be funding higher level qualifications including quite a

substantial number of graduate places, postgraduate places and

doctorates -- ?29.2 million. We know a lot of that funding has been

confirmed in the short-term but a doctor up the four years. We cannot

start any of these major projects when we do not know if the funding

will be confirmed 100% long-term. Are there any up sides? Science is

international and resilient. Scotland played a role in the two

biggest breakthroughs the century, the Higgs boson and the discovery of

waves. Both are far bigger than the EU, those collaborations. Scotland

may be able to buy back into the EU research project after Brexit. One

of the best things post-referendum that has happened, not only by the

Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and Scottish society at

large, reasserting its welcoming and outward looking nature. I think that

is something we have reinforced in the university from the 24th of June

and other universities have done the same. The UK Government says...

But research projects can take years to setup and decades to run. That

seems a poor fit for the Brexit timetable. I think it is very

difficult to tell because again it is difficult to know where this

journey will take us. Are different ways negotiations could go,

different outcomes and positions we could find ourselves in and saw a

lot will depend on exactly what happens in terms of negotiation, how

that affects the way projects will go, relationships will go, and that

is something we simply do not know yet. Scottish science has always

attracted great minds like Lord Kelvin and has been doing so since

long before the European Union came into existence and will probably

continue doing so afterwards, but what is happening with Brexit is it

has opened up the whole world of uncertainty. We may not know exactly

what is under threat, if anything, but we do know there is a lot at

stake. I have been speaking to Professor

Sir Ian Diamond, Vice principal of the University of Aberdeen. A lot of

Scotland's scientific achievements have been possible without EU

funding, everything from Dolly the sheep, the Higgs boson, the

gravitational waves. Why is EU funding so important? It is

incredibly important at the moment. One of the things we have been able

to do in the last few years is build partnerships and teams. Let's be

honest. These days most of the great challenges we need, they need

multidisciplinary teams, teams of researchers, and they need

researchers which often are the best across Europe and cut across nation

state boundaries. Therefore in order to get into the UK and

presumably that includes scientist ??NOS PACE I very much hope so.

Let's be clear. We work in a global market for the very best talent to

work in our I very much hope so. Let's be clear. We work in a global

market for the very best talent to work in our one of the jewel's in

Scotland-- presumably that includes scientist much hope so. But does

there need to be free movement in the European sense of the word? If

Britain had its own immigration policy but said skilled workers and

scientist. Yes, I very much hope so. But does there need to be free

movement in the European sense of the word? If Britain had its own

immigration policy but said skilled workers and

scientist could move freely in and out of the UK, without the said

earlier we work on a global labourer market and attract the very best

talent from across the world so we need that freedom of movement from

across the world and that is incredibly important in Europe as

well. What kind of EU or European funds generally could be accessed if

we were not in the EU any longer I think we have to be clear. As I said

earlier we work on a global labourer market and attract the very best

talent from across the world so we need that freedom of movement from

across the world and that is incredibly important in Europe as

well. What kind of EU or European funds generally could be accessed if

we were not in the EU any I think there are different models. For

example, Norway is a member of the European economic area which allows

them to access research I think it is incredibly important the key

players in research. We are one of the strongest research countries. In

many ways, we do not just need access but need to be able to read

as we do at the moment. I think it is incredibly important for

knowledge generation, for the benefit of society in the UK and in

indeed across the world that the UK is one of the key players in

research. We are one of the strongest research countries. In

many ways, we do not just need access but need to be able to read

as we do at the moment. I think it is incredibly important for

knowledge generation, for the benefit of society in the UK and in

indeed across the but research is done on a truly international basis,

not just with European countries? That is absolutely we need

partnerships that go across the world. But to be clear for able to

compete with the very best in the world and in fact lead them. That is

what we need to continue to continue to be able to do. , we are able to

build incredibly strong partnerships across Europe and as a result are

able to compete with the very best in the world and in fact lead them.

That is what we need to continue to be able to do is the priority now is

to lobby the UK Government to say, look, we want you to match the

funding we are currently getting from the I would not just say is not

just about the money but about being able to build the partnerships as I

have said continuously it is not just about the money but about being

able to build the partnershipfor example, at the University of

Aberdeen we are working on a to work on a teams from right across Europe

working on this project MRI scanner which has teams from right across

Europe working on this project. The important but it is about having

that freedom to partner together and be able to apply for competitive

research grants without double, triple or even quadruple jeopardy.

Your negotiating position, briefly, is what incredibly important but it

is about having the freedom to partner together and be able to

apply for competitive research grants without double, triple or

even quadruple jeopardy. Your negotiating position, briefly, is

what are you looking for from the UK Government? The negotiating position

has to with leadership the European freedom of movement for researchers

and I would also argue that because we need to be generating the it has

to be freedom of movement for researchers and I would also argue

that because we need to be generating the next world-class

researchers, we need movement for student as well and need to lobby

for that to be part of the negotiating position. Thank you for

joining us. It has been my world-class researchers, we need

movement for student as well and need to lobby for that to be part of

the negotiating position. Thank you for joining us. It has been my

pleasure. Joining me to discuss

the rest of today's stories are the broadcaster

Liz Leonard and the model Pleasure. We have been we have been

speaking. You think that will have a big impact? Yes, I think it will be

crucial. My other half works at Strathclyde and I know discussions

amongst his colleagues reflect what the other speakers from Aberdeen and

Glasgow were speaking about. Interestingly, they were speaking in

your piece impact on science funding. You think that will have a

big impact? Yes, I think it will be crucial. My other half works at

Strathclyde and I know discussions amongst his colleagues reflect what

the other speakers from Aberdeen and Glasgow were speaking about.

Interestingly, they were speaking in your the actual nature of the

research the high level of academic input you were an academic, a really

good strong academic in Europe, would you be at this point thinking,

right, I will go to a job in Scotland? Because you're not quite

certain what the position will be... It is not just about the pros and

cons of Brexit but the uncertainty... Absolutely. And the

funding is absolutely critical. The Arise in 2020 programme, the one

referenced, it is the latest research framework -- Horizon 2020.

That amounts to over 80 billion euros and the UK Government, nor the

Scottish Government, has a huge track record of putting a lot into

research. Research is really expensive. We are also speaking

generally about Brexit and we were doing so earlier in the programme.

Eunice, there is still this argument about whether the public were

adequately informed about what Brexit meant. What do you think? One

of the most I suppose primary concerns of people who voted, most

people have voted, was actually immigration, and I think it is

literally because of the impact on what they feel our social services

that are available, but actually I think this might be misplaced

because if we look at the fact that obviously David Cameron into the

Right To Buy and so on, in one sense you are cutting the facilities

available to the Council, and not building more houses, so I do think

a lot of people are potentially looking at this and approaching it

from perhaps the wrong direction. I do not think that necessarily Brexit

will somehow and saw all of these significant issues that we have. And

there was a poll done sometime ago suggesting the majority of the

British public did not actually know the actual levels of immigration in

this country. I think EU immigration is something like 5% and most people

thought it was more like 15%. Definitely. There are other

countries in the EU with far more immigrants they are taking in and I

think we are one of the richest countries in the world and it should

be imperative to us to do everything we can to help, especially when we

are in such difficult times. About 2000 migrants have been moved away

from the so-called Jungle in Calais today. The conditions there is

absolutely appalling. Why has it taken so long for something to be

done about it? A really good question. No one seems to be able to

give the answer. 7000 people in that camp altogether and it has been

there for three, four years, longer? Appalling conditions, and I think it

shows both the French and UK governments have been very

short-term about this. It is only now, and I was listening to the

mayor of Calais earlier this evening, and basically her

explanation was, well, the numbers are now too great so we have decided

to do something about it, but actually something should have

happened and some decisions taken about what to do with the different

people, and some are economic migrants, and some are asylum

seekers. There is a big difference between those tonight. Do you think

the two governments could have done more, Eunice? Yes, definitely. I

think there is so much we could have been doing in general on this topic.

It is very difficult, a very difficult situation we are in, but I

think the fact they have only done that now, it is quite discomforting

in a sense because I really feel we are kind of losing this idea of

humanity, and understanding, that ultimately we are all human beings

and we all deserve and should have access to good opportunities to live

our lives in a good way and if we really take into account the reality

of the modern world we live in today, of capitalism, the history of

capitalism and those European countries, particularly France, that

benefited from things such as colonialism, then it becomes quite

ridiculous we are now not allowing people to have access to the basic

needs of life. There was a report from the British Council today

suggesting women hold less than 30% of positions of power and influence

in society despite the fact they make it more than half the UK

population. I wonder... The Scottish Parliament, you have three female

leaders, but I suppose the problem there is although there are three

people in prominent positions of power, if you look at the General

make-up of the Parliament I think it is only about 35% that is female. It

is indeed, and only 24% of women... Of the councillors are women. On top

of that only 36% of women are on boards where you can actually

effected change. I think that is a problem in business rather than

politics now. I think it is across the board. Given we have the Equal

Pay Act of 1974 it is extraordinary women are still being played can --

paid considerably less. It has a knock-on effect. We need women in

positions of power and influence to... For example at the other end

of the spectrum low skilled workers, predominately women, are carers and

if you compare their pay with workers on a construction site, it

is less. Yes, we hear about women long having broken that glass

ceiling, but these figures suggest it is still there? And interesting

dichotomy. On the one hand we are saying we want more women in these

positions, but on the other hand if you look at the culture and ideology

is perpetuated significantly through the media, it is actually

reinforcing this stereotype that actually you can be more successful

by not actually involving yourself in business but I actually paying

more attention to your aesthetics and that sort of way of doing

things, so it is very difficult for young women and women in general the

kind of rise above that and I think we need to do much more to celebrate

women in business over the world and certainly here in Scotland, and

indeed in the United Kingdom. OK, Eunice and Liz, thank you both for

coming onto the programme. We're back again tomorrow

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