The Big, Big Debate Scotland Decides

In a week's time, Scotland will have voted on its

future, whether to stay in the UK or become an independent country.

Tonight, we've invited 16 and 17-year-olds, given the vote for the

first time, from every secondary school in Scotland, to join a debate

Thousands have come from every corner of Scotland here

to the Hydro in Glasgow to question directly those who are campaigning

This is Scotland Decides: The Big, Big Debate.

Welcome to Scotland's newest major music venue.

In the coming weeks it will host the likes of Paolo Nutini and

Lady Gaga, but tonight, entertainment of a different sort.

We have invited a panel of Scotland's leading political

figures to answer the questions put to them by Scotland's newest

100,000 16 and 17-year-olds registered to vote.

219 schools, from Ullapool in the north to

The biggest ever event of its kind in Scotland.

A lot of us are still undecided so we hope today's

There is uncertainty about the currency, still.

There are still some questions that need to be answered and that

I would like to know what I can get from it, education-wise,

I am joined by four panellists who have been nominated by the

rival campaigns as their official representatives this evening.

From Yes Scotland, Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and

co-convenor of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie. And the

nominated representatives from the Better Together campaign, leader of

the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson

An audience of 500 from all over Scotland has been selected to sit

on the floor of this arena and take part in the main debate,

and they are evenly divided between supporters of independence on one

side and opponents on the other, plus some who are undecided.

Tonight's questions all come from our audience

Let's take first question from Amy of Stewarton Academy in

How would independence affect job opportunities for school leavers

Independence gives Scotland control of economic levers and one

of the reasons I want Scotland to be independent is

so that we can create more job opportunities for our young people.

There's nothing wrong with young people wanting to leave Scotland

for a while to see the world, spread their wings.

But right now something like 40,000 of our young people

leave Scotland every year, many of them because they can't find

the opportunities and the jobs and career progression here.

If we have control over our economic levers we can create

more opportunities, encourage more companies to set up in Scotland,

to expand in Scotland, to create jobs for all of you and your fellow

When I look out at this audience just now, I can't

help having my immense confidence in the ability of this country to

You are the future of Scotland and you are the reason that

an independent Scotland will be a roaring success.

I agree that this is a phenomenal sight, not just those on the floor

The engagement from Scotland's young people has

been immense, but so has the level of information and informed debate.

And people in Scotland of any age know there are many jobs in Scotland

that exist because we work with people from other parts of the UK.

180,000 financial services jobs in Scotland, for example.

Nine out of ten pension products and insurance products sold in Scotland

In manufacturing, we sell twice as much to the rest of the UK as to

You take your Americas, Japans, Frances, Germanys and Australias,

add it all up and double it and you still don't sell

as much there as we do to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I think if you look at the history of our country we have always worked

Lots of Scottish companies have set up shop down south,

and lots of companies from down south employ people from up here.

What I don't want to see is double regulation, barriers to that,

I think young people leaving schools and universities right now know

there are opportunities which exist because we are part of the United

Kingdom, and many of them want to choose jobs exactly in that area.

Patrick Harvie. I think there are two big problems that make

the challenges for young people setting out on their career paths

One is the austerity economics coming

from the UK Government, so jobs in the public sector and very often

in the voluntary sector as well are being squeezed for finances.

It is only when Scotland controls its own finances that we

But also, economic policy that centralises so much power

So many parts of our economy, from banking to energy to food

and retail, are dominated by a tiny number of vast businesses, crowding

out space which could be taken up by the flourishing of independent,

entrepreneurial, creative people like all of you, in your careers.

I think we need to change both these things, the centralisation of power

in our economy as well as the austerity economics from the UK.

If I saw an alternative coming from the UK I might even be on the other

side of this debate, but I see no prospect that we can change these

George Galloway, how would independence affect job

opportunities for school leavers and university graduates?

There are too many barriers, boundaries and borders

in the world already without erecting new ones in the second

Young people know that better than any other section of the community.

The austerity that Patrick talks about, out of which we are now

finally coming, with an election coming up in Britain in the spring,

But it is as nothing to what will happen if the disruption and,

I believe, destruction of separation takes place.

Just this week, billions of pounds, billions,

has been wiped off the share price of Scottish based companies.

Money is flowing out of Edinburgh, out of the banks, south

And the banks themselves announcing, and insurance companies,

as they are legally obliged to do, that they will relocate their

headquarters in England because they are obliged to headquarter where the

So if you are hoping for a job in financial services in the new,

modern technologies, it must make sense to keep together one

300-year-old country with strength and with a critical mass of

population, rather than following the nationalists down the

I would like to make this debate as much about the audience

as possible so we will take a few points and I will come back.

I would like to go back to Amy, first.

What do you think of what you have heard?

Over to the man in the middle with his hand up.

Should we not have our own job-creating powers,

so we can make job-creating powers that will benefit our country

for ourselves, instead of allowing Westminster to do it?

And George, we are not creating any physical boundaries or borders.

We are creating a political separation and that is

It should not be about misleading Scottish children.

Last week, two large Scottish banks have vowed

to move their headquarters south of the border if we go independent.

And the SNP-backed policy of moving Trident south

of the border will take the amount of jobs there are in Scotland.

So how can Nicola say this will attract more jobs for young people?

It has actively pushed jobs out just at the thought

Firstly, I am just trying to get over hearing

George Galloway, the socialist, tell you young people to be intimidated

In truth, the share prices of most publicly listed Scottish

The banks themselves today are saying that

the contingency plans that they have drawn up, and that is what they are,

contingency plans, don't involve moving their headquarters.

They involve moving their brass plates, their registered offices.

And the banks say they don't involve moving any jobs.

If the banks say that, let's not have scaremongering

And lastly, we will be better as a country if we can invest money

in creating opportunity, rather than waste money on weapons of mass

Ruth Davidson, Royal Bank Of Scotland, the gentleman is right,

they said they would move their registered headquarters to London

and the Chief Executive in a letter to staff said they have no intention

And yet Standard Life said it was and had set up shell companies over

the border to move operations and jobs into.

And then Tesco Bank said they are moving their headquarters.

If anybody wants to look at what Nicola has said

about headquarters of Scottish companies moving in the past,

all you need to do is Google Nicola Sturgeon 2005 BBC Scottish Power.

When she said that when Scottish Power move their headquarters

there would be inevitable job losses to do with that.

You are the leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland.

I would have thought you would have understood the difference between

What you have just said there is flatly wrong.

The banks are not saying they will move their headquarters.

Lloyds Bank, for example, its headquarters is already in London.

And if the banks are saying that what they have said today does not

involve moving, Tesco Bank also said it did not affect jobs,

so if they can say that why are you, as the no campaign, insisting

Standard Life say they are moving operations.

Why are those 5000 jobs not of interest to you?

They are not saying they are moving jobs.

You can decide a week today that you want to take control of the future

of this country into your own hands, or you can choose to be intimidated

I would like a point from the man in the blue blazer.

Going back to what George said about how Scottish companies have

lost out due to independence, my dad is an independent chartered surveyor

and over the last year he has seen significant loss in his turnover due

to the fact that international companies are not willing to

Why is an independent Scotland a good thing?

We have not had the referendum and yet Scottish companies are

One more point and then I will come to George Galloway.

Can I point out to George Galloway that this is not an SNP campaign,

You have Radical Independence, Green for Independence, Women

That is a distinction without a difference because if you vote

I know you don't like me pointing that out, yes supporters,

because you know that most people in Scotland really don't fancy

Now, the young man whose father is a surveyor, it is hardly surprising.

You are the only people in history to be asked to create

a separate country that does not have a currency.

The two women have had their share of air time.

If you use another country's money, you are just a colony, like Panama,

If you use money that is controlled by other people,

Yet that is Alex Salmond's plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D. Thank you.

Patrick Harvie? Look, aside from people shouting at

each other about this, I thought it was just a couple of years ago since

everybody right across the political spectrum was united in their anger

and revulsion at the misdeeds of the banks themselves, the very same

people trying to threaten and intimidate us now. The opportunity

here is to build something different,th. Some of these banks,

the public already owns them, bailing them out after their

historic market failure. If the public already owns them, we should

transform them into genuinely local banks that invest in the real

economy, in the jobs we do need instead of gambling their money

which is to say your money, on the casino economy, globally. Now,

George may not understand the distinction between nationalism and

the independence movement which is diverse and inclusive, it's become a

compelling movement I think in Scotland, he may be tired of hearing

the women speak, but just remember, he's also someone who doesn't know

the distinction between rape and what he calls bad sexual etiquette.

You should reject the argument of someone like that entirely.

Thank you. Do you want to respond to that? Have

you no decency, Sir? Have you no idea of how important this decision

next Thursday is, to scrape the gutter of lies in that way? That's

not why these people are here. Your own words. That's not people are

voting on next Thursday. Thank you both. Have you no decency, Sir? Have

you no decency. All of you, thank you very much. You have made your

point about that. We are going to move on to the next question. I hear

that, you have also made your reply. Thank you both very much.

Let's go down to the Glasgow Gallic school and our next question. If

Scotland stays as part of the UK, will we eventually have to pay

tuition fees for higher education? Will Scots have to pay tuition fees

for higher education if Scotland stays as part of the UK? Ruth

Davidson? This audience has 16 and 17-year-olds. For 15 years,

education's been the preserve of the Scottish Parliament, so for the last

seven years, Nicola and Alex and the rest of the party have been running

the Scottish education system in their entirety, so the decisions

that are made about education are made here in Scotland, so it's the

Nicola and Alex's decision to cut the college places in Scotland. It's

closer to 140,000, I was being generous to them when I said the

previous figure. In terms of having more powers coming into Scotland

over how you raise money and how much income comes to Scotland,

there'll be even more discretion in Scotland over things like health and

education. Don't let the nationalists fool you. For 15 years,

the Scottish Parliament has been in entire control of the Health

Service, of education, of policing, of all of the services that we have

today in Scotland. This isn't someone else's tough decision that

has to be made, it's our decision here if Scotland irrespective of

whether you vote yes or no. Don't forget, you can get involved in

today's debate. You can text your views to 80295, e-mail us and if you

are on social media, use the hashtag.

Nicola Sturgeon, if Scotland stays as part of the UK, will we have to

pay tuition fees for higher education? Education policy is

devolved, that's why I'm proud that the SNP government, unlike this team

over here, nobody's had the guts to come to talk to you from there

tonight, but we have kept university education free. I feel really

strongly about this. I grew up in the West of Scotland in a working

class family. If I'd had to pay tuition fees I would never have got

to university. I had the privilege of a free education and I've got no

right to take it away from any of you.

APPLAUSE. Yes we have policy control. What Ke

don't have is financial crop. -- control. Our budget's been cut by 7%

in recent years. The Tories want to cut our budget even more and the

danger is, if our budget continues to get cut, our budget in what is

one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it gets harder and harder

for us to protect the things that matter. So we need to match up that

policy control with control over our own budgets. We are the 14th richest

country in the world. There's no reason we can't protect free

education, but we are getting able to do it if we are an independent

country. Thank you. The woman with the blonde

hair in the second row? I just feel like Ruth's answer to that question

was not a yes or no, like she didn't sum up whether we'd pay them or not.

It's because it's already in our control, that doesn't change whether

there's a yes or in answer whether you make the decision either way.

That's in Scotland right now. The purple hand is up way, way, way up

the back up there. Ruth never answered the question. She never

answered whether we'd be protected. We could vote in a different

Government, it may not be the SNP, how do we know if they are going to

protect it? Thank you. On the edge there in the middle, yes, the woman

there, yes? On the topic of tuition fees, I would be planning on going

down to London to go to college and university and I was wondering,

would I need to be international rates because if it was, I can't

afford it and I can't go to college. Thank you. The man in the middle of

those cluster of hands up. You pointing, yes, that is you, you're

on, Sir? Ruth, you said that we'd be given for powers, yet it's members

of your party such as Boris Johnson who said in the event of a no-vote

we'll receive no such powers. He's not even an MP. We are absolutely

commit. The Prime Minister was up yesterday, the three party leaders

from the Unionist Parties. The only party that's handed powers back to

Westminster has been the SNP. We used to have power over raising and

lowering taxes by 3p in the pound for people like your parent who is

voted in the 1999 referendum, it was the will of the Scottish people that

we kept that power and the SNP handed it back. George Galloway, you

are nodding in agreement with your Conservative colleague? Well, the

answer to the question is that that will be a decision for the Scottish

people, whether you are independent or not. Either you will be

independent and you will make that decision, or you will have

universities controlled by a Scottish Parliament within a British

state and you'll have the power to decide to make that choice. I'm

actually very concerned about the 130,000 college places for the most

working class students that were cut by Nicola Sturgeon in order to pay

for the three university tuition fees. But the budget that she talks

about doesn't even have a currency attached to it. Oh, for...

She talks about the budget, but we don't know whether that budget is

going to be in euros or groats. It will be pounds, George. No, I can

assure you, no. APPLAUSE.

Well, you talked about the incongruity of me as a socialist

earlier. How incongruous is it that the champion of Scottish Nationalism

is absolutely desperate to keep the English pound? It's our pound! It's

Scotland's pound. Let me finish this. Briefly, please. Let me finish

the point I was making. Your currency whatever it's called is

predicated on the most price unstable commodity in the world and

which is fast running out. That's what she's hiding from you.

By the time you are married, there won't be any oil on which to hold a

currency. I want to put this to Patrick Harvie. Mr Galloway, thank

you. Thank you very much. Patrick Harvie. Back to tuition fees. I may

be... There was a question about tuition fees a few minutes ago and I

think it really didn't get answered. The principle that you or the next

generation of young people should be given a deal that says yes you can

have a higher education but you are going to end up 20, 30, ?40,000 in

debt or deeper by the time you get a degree. I think that is a scandal.

The next principle that someone argued is that yes you can get a

higher education if you can get a big business like KPMG or somebody

else to sponsor your degree. That will be a scandal when that comes

in. It's fantastic that Scotland so far has been able to hold out

against that commodification of your education. I think it's something we

need to hold back to. I want to people to vote against me if I vote

for division fees -- tuition. Scotland needs control of its own

finances. Our Public Services, we could make that policy commitment to

invest in them, to carry on doing that. We need to control our

finances as well if we are going to be able to carry through that

commitment. Thank you. People are very, very keen to speak on this

issue. Right to the edge there? This campaign wants independence so

badly, they wish to keep the pound, it's like asking for a divorce but

keeping the same bank account. The man with his hand up to the right of

the three of you there. Three of you in the middle. Yes? If Scotland

stays in the UK, what will its policy on immigration be? OK. Let's

try to stick with division fees for the minute if that's all right --

tuition fees. You, Sir, in the middle? How can you guarantee that

your policy will continue if you're going to keep tuition fees if you

might not even get into power if we go independent. You could guarantee

that in the way that you vote. But still doesn't mean you are going to

get into power and I'm going to get tuition fees. How can you use that

as an argument? What I can guarantee is that without independence, any

Scottish Government you vote for, Nicola's party, my party, the Labour

Party, who haven't turned up tonight, any party that you vote for

will be unable to control Scotland's finances so when the UK Government

takes money out of the pot that comes out of the pot as well. If we

want to protect Public Services, it's got to come from somewhere

else. Are you convinced by that 1234 -- by that? Not really, no. Patrick

is not telling you that independent experts, the Institute of Fiscal

studies have said that to have independence there would be a ?6

billion black hole, ?6 billion more cuts per year than there are right

now. I think what Nicola hasn't told you is that, in terms of cash, the

budget of Parliament's gone up in Scotland every single year. She has

more than twice as much to spend as don ewar did. If politics is Blix,

why has this been cut -- Donald Dewar. The Scotland Government's

chose to protect the NHS in Scotland slightly less than in England. It's

hard to see how this could be. Talking about Public Services, money

has been coming up the road, health money. It was supposed to be spent

on health. Alex Salmond said he'd spend it on health and he hasn't

done it. Politics is about decision-making and she's making the

wrong ones. The second row back in the blue tie? Would it not make it

easier for Scotland to have more jobs if people can get better

education by having free education? Thank you. One point here near the

back, yes? See if Scotland does become independent, where will we be

able to get the money to be able to afford to get free tuition for

university? That is the nub of it isn't it? Ruth said money's been

coming up from down the road. See the money that comes Fripp down the

road, it first goes down the road from all of us. It's our taxes. It's

consequentials. I'll come to you. Then what happens, Westminster

decides how much of our own money finds its way back to Scotland and

they've been cutting that in recent years in real terms. Now, Ruth

earlier on pretended she didn't know the difference between a registered

office and a headquarters, clearly she's now trying to pretend she

doesn't know about inflation. Our money's been getting cut in real

terms. You know what independence is all about and it answers the girl's

question over here. We pay the same taxes as we pay right now. Instead

of sending them to London for them to decide the priorities for

spending them, we keep them here and we decide the priorities, the

priorities like health, free education and not trident nuclear

weapons. Ruth Davidson?

And that's exactly what voting no thanks in the ballot paper will give

you. Because the powers are coming over on tax. Nicola's being

disingenuous here because she likes to say she's put health spending up

every year, talking about cash terms, rather than real terms. Let's

get on the same page. You have been putting up health spending less.

That's what the IFS have said today. I read out the exact quotes. Why

don't we let us keep our own money and setour own priorities? Because

we are part of a broader union which allows us to pool and share

resources. That is why public spending is ?1200 more than it is in

the rest of the UK. They are talking over me so you don't hear this.

Public spending in Scotland is ?1200 per head more than the rest of the

UK because you pay and pool and share resources. We are not going to

get anywhere if we talk over each other. Craig from West Lothian? Oil

is expected to run out by 2050, so who will pay our pensions? It is

going to run out quicker than that. According to Sir Ian Wood, who has

made a ?1 billion fortune out of North Sea oil, regarded as one of

the top North Sea oil experts in the world, there will be a sharp

reduction by the year 21, and it will all be done by 2030. You can

believe Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, or one of the world's top

oil experts, who was forced to come into this debate because of the dis-

ingenuity of the nationalist argument.

I am telling you, this is moonshine, fantasy economics based on a

product which has been as low as $12 a barrel in my lifetime and as high

Nobody knows what it will be tomorrow, or next year,

I will be dead and gone by the time it runs out.

All of you will still be alive, God willing, all of you will still be

alive, and that oil will be gone and all this moonshine fantasy economics

Patrick Harvie. The truth is, is it not, that you would happily

Well, no, I think it would be absurd,

even from the deepest green point of view, to say we can't use any oil

at all, or that you could shut down an industry like that overnight.

But very clearly, the world has far more fossil fuels

That is something every fossil fuel producing country around the world,

Scotland or the UK and many others, are going to have to come to terms

with, leaving a lot of it in the ground, or diverting it to

My view is that you could scrap the huge tax breaks given by the

UK Government to the industry for future exploration looking

for new reserves we can't afford to burn, and invest instead

Maximise revenue in the short term, not extraction, and make sure we

invest in the renewable alternative, so it is not just owned by a bunch

of multinationals, but some of it by the public sector, some of it by the

community sector, so that the wealth of that incredible growing

energy economy will be shared more fairly throughout our society.

I will take some points and then we will come back up here.

The woman with the blue tie. How can you claim we are better together

when one in three children in Glasgow live in poverty?

On the topic of oil and pensions, if we can stick to that.

How much money will we get from this oil?

How can you guarantee it is going to stay the same price?

Are people going to pay the same money for it?

They have clearly lied to the Scottish population

The SNP predictions were about 60% off.

How can we trust whatever policy the SNP are putting forward

if the main source of our income has effectively been a lie?

Westminster has been telling the people of Scotland that oil was

about to run out since the moment oil was discovered, since

They told us it was meant to have run out by now.

The truth of the matter is there are billions of barrels

Even taking Ian Wood's estimate of 16 billion barrels of oil, that has

Yesterday, we heard one of the serious experts

on oil in this country, Professor Alec Kemp, talk about the many new

discoveries that are predicted over the next number of years.

What we have in Scotland right now is a debate

about whether we have lots of oil, or lots and lots and lots of oil.

And most successful independent countries don't have any oil.

There are two points I think you need to think about.

One is the decision for us is how we better steward our oil reserves over

the next 40, 50, 60 years and beyond, because right now as part of

the UK, we are one of only two oil producing countries in the world

that does not have an oil fund, does not have something to show

And the final point is that oil is a bonus in our economy.

Have you ever heard anybody say that because it has so much oil, Norway

She did not address the point about Sir Ian Wood at all.

It is not Westminster saying it is running out but industry

This is important because he has been mentioned several times.

Sir Ian Wood said in 2012, "My headline message for the youth

of today, get involved, the North Sea oil industry will see

He also said the SNP have overestimated oil budgets by 60%.

BP believes the future prospects for North Sea are best served by

maintaining the existing capacity and integrity of the United Kingdom.

In a 650-page White Paper there is one page of white figures.

Everything she wants to spend on is predicated on the oil price

Since humans crawled out of the swamp, grew legs and started

walking, do you know how many months oil has been over $113 per barrel?

Four months in the history of humanity

in the world has oil traded at that price, and that is what she is

The amount we spend on welfare alone in Scotland is more than the entire

The North Sea is not paying for schools or hospitals, it is

Also, if you look at the entire North Sea,

one more point, more money was wiped off Scottish companies on the

stock market on Monday in a single day than the entire tax take from

So her pretending that oil will pay for everything is nonsense, it is a

There are so many people with their hands up and

I can't see how anyone can trust the Westminster government's reputation

First, the wealth of the oil was hidden from us,

the report was hidden from us which said that we would have had oil

reserves which are worth more than the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.

Instead, it was squandered and spent on Westminster privatisation

That is a UK Government report from the 1970s.

Yes Scotland are constantly comparing Scotland to Scandinavian

countries but they fail to take into account that Scandinavian

How is Scotland ever going to be able to pay that much tax

when there are so many people living on the breadline?

Is the SNP thinking in the long term about using oil

As we know, the time that the oil is going to

We are taking it out and the world is using more and more, so is it

There are so many hands up in the back and I cannot see all of you.

Whoever shouts loudest can ask the question.

Ruth Davidson spoke about extra powers for Scotland.

Why was devo max taken off the ballot paper?

When I went in to negotiate the agreement, the Secretary of

State for Scotland said more powers on the ballot paper was a red line.

Your party thought you could not get a yes vote

The question was, who prevented more powers being on the ballot paper?

The answer to the question is the Westminster government.

That is why you can't trust them to deliver more powers now.

We have already delivered more powers.

You sat in the chamber and voted for more powers for Scotland.

Don't tell us that we don't fulfil our promises, because we did.

It is no longer acceptable for Scotland to accept crumbs

This is time to take control of our own future.

George Galloway, would you like to have a word?

Any chance of getting a word in here.

The young woman who said one in three children

in Glasgow were living in poverty, there are children living

And I'm not prepared to slam the door, to get onto

I'm as concerned about food banks in Birmingham or Bradford or

Newcastle or Liverpool, as I am about them in Glasgow.

And the equanimity with which Scottish Nationalists are

ready to leave them behind, to the tender mercies of a Tory

government in perpetuity, is quite stunning, in my view.

I wouldn't like you to misrepresent Sir Ian Wood.

Sir Ian Wood said there would be a sharp reduction in North Sea oil

production in 21 years and that it would be finished in 30 years.

Now, that is my lifetime, but I am not here arguing for

my lifetime, but for their lifetime and the lifetime of their children.

And finally, extra powers may not be on the ballot paper,

There is a super devo, never mind a devo max.

There is super devo on the table now.

You would be crazy to turn it down and opt instead for divorce.

Listen, I have been divorced, more than once, actually.

Divorce is a nasty, acrimonious and very damaging business.

And it is especially damaging for the children.

And you don't get divorced, or shouldn't get divorced,

unless there is absolutely no other alternative to doing so.

So I am saying you are better together.

I would like to hear what you have to say on this.

You can tweet about the programme using the hashtag #bigbigdebate,

The next question from Abi in Clackmannanshire.

If we stay in the UK, will privatisation of parts

Will NHS privatisation be inevitable if Scotland stays in the UK,

Much like the debate on higher education, what we have to recognise

is that there is a difference between being able to control policy

on something like the NHS and being able to control Scotland's finances.

At the moment, the UK Government is dead set on breaking up and

privatising the structure itself of the NHS, not just buying in services

to fill the gaps as has happened for a long time, a very long time.

Even GPs are not part of the publicly owned NHS.

But they are privatising the very structure of it.

Now, if that leads in the longer term to

more introduction of fees and charges, if it leads to a decline in

the public resources going in, that will impact on the Scottish budget.

If, as well, it impacts, results in this nasty, competitive,

profit driven motive, which degrades the quality of care that people are

getting, there is a danger that that could be locked in at EU level.

There is a trade deal being negotiated between the EU and the US

which could lock in that profit driven model.

So Scotland needs control of its finances and it needs its own voice

at European level if we are going to resist both pressure on our budget

for services like the NHS, and the privatisation by stealth, the

marketisation, handing over of a public good, a public service,

I want to ask this man what he thinks.

We already have a free NHS, free education.

So why risk everything and change it when we already have

How can you talk about trust when the yes campaign's tactic has

been about lies, misinformation and scare tactics?

How can you talk about trust when your campaign is not based on trust?

Lots of their campaign ads have been lies and scare tactics to

Over the past few years, the Scottish Government has had

its budget cut in real terms by about 7%.

It is already having to make savings.

If we vote no, that will be ?4 billion taken away

That money will have to come from health care, policing, schools.

Unless we vote for independence, we will have to do whatever the

The guy said earlier on that we already have free tuition, but it is

It is whether we should settle for that.

We should do better for our country, not take for granted what we have

Listen, we would never have had a National Health Service, never have

had one if it wasn't for two things; a Labour Government in 1945 and a

country big enough to make a big enough pot to share resources across

the country in order to have health carefree at the point of need.

Secondly; the National Health Service is an entirely devolved

matter. It could only be privatised if people were foolish enough to

elect a Scottish Government that was ready to privatise it. And thirdly,

as Ruth Davidson candidly, though probably unwisely conceded, just the

other day, the Tories will be out in the spring. The privatisation agenda

will be dead in the spring. A Labour Government, like the one that

created the NHS in the first place will be here next May, not in five

years, but in May. Now, you... Are you supporting a Labour Government?

Now Labour has turned up tonight. I'm speaking for real Labour, real

Labour values which are shared by millions of people across the

country. The woman with the glasses and blue blazer and tie? The

Conservative Government might be dead in the spring but we got told

that last time with Thatcher each's Conservative Government, it will

come again and we'll be under this pressure yet again -- Margaret

Thatcher. And the woman on the edge here? We give our taxes to England,

but we get more back so how are we going to afford all this NHS and

private education if we are getting less money as an independent

Scotland when, as we are within the UK, we get more money back? Scotland

get a higher share of public spending that the UK average does...

Ruth quoted a figure earlier on, saying public spending per public

head in Scotland was ?1200 a head higher, she's right about that. One

in five of our population lives in a rural community. What she didn't say

is that in the year she quotes that figure from, the tax we generated

per Head of Population was ?1700 higher. We are not subsidised, we do

not get back more than we pay in. Don't ever let anyone tell you that

is true. What's important on that point, that point might be slightly

misleading to some people because we are not, we do not have enough

money. We are subsidised by debt. Well Scotland as an independent

country would be in deficit, the UK is in deficit to the tune of ?100

billion. There would be very few independent countries in the world

right now. A deficit is a reason to be independent, to get your hands on

the levers of economic powers so grow your economy and increase the

wealth you have as a country. Can I come back to the NHS? Something I,

like so many people care about deeply, George said there's a Labour

Government coming next spring. How many times has Scotland voted Labour

only to end up with the Tories? Why should we...

APPLAUSE Have to cross our fingers and hope

for a Labour Government when we can vote yes and guarantee that we

always get the Governments we vote for? And on the NHS, I used to be

responsible for the Health Service in Scotland. I know how hard it is

to protect the budget of the Health Service when our overall budget is

being reduced by Westminster. I will fight with every breath in my body

to keep the National Health Service in public hands but we are going to

be more able to do that when we have control of our own budgets so that

we set our own priorities. That is the benefit of independence.

I'm glad that Nicola's finally admitted that she has been in charge

of the Health Service, in charge of where money goes, that she was in

charge of the amount of private suppliers to the National Health

Service in Scotland, she was in charge but she's still not answered

the quote from the Institute of Fiscal studies who run the numbers

who said that health spending and consequentials got sent up to

Scotland and weren't spent on health. "The Scottish Government's

chosen to protect the NHS in Scotland less than it's been

protected in England". That is the Institute of Fiscal studies that run

the numbers. Health money got sent up, you promised it would be spent

on health, it hasn't been. Scottish NHS is getting a bad deal from the

SNP. You are not listening to this and we

are running out of time. Mr Harvie? I mean, the reality is that, you

know, even according to some of the no-side, everybody has agreed that

Scotland is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I'm frankly

bored of the debate about whether we are a tiny bit richer or poorer on

average, because on average is not most people's experience, on average

in a chronically unequal society means very little because so much of

the wealth of our society is not funding Public Services or building

a better environment, is not investing in the jobs you will need

as you go to school and into the rest of the world. So much of our

wealth and economy which should be democratically accountable is being

hoarded by the wealthiest. If we were not a fraction richer but a

great deal fairer, that would be tremendously to the benefit of the

vast majority of ordinary people, the ability to invest in the common

experience, in the blocked good, rather than in the wealth of those

who horder the wealth away in tax havens or elsewhere. Thank you very

much. If you all promise to give a short answer, we'll take one more

question. This is the deal, you have to subscribe to this deal and we'll

go to Isla for the final question. I'm currently undecided on which way

to vote on 18th September. Which succinct statement would the

campaigns like to make to help me decide on which decision. Who would

you like to go to sfirs? The yes campaign. Voting yes puts control of

the future of our country into our own hands. It's not a magic wand.

We'll have challenges, ups and downs, but we'll have control of our

own resources and we'll make the decisions that shape the kind of

country we are. That's what all independent countries do, it's what

Scotland should do as well. Thank you. That was succinct, let's try

and stick to that. Ruth Davidson? At the moment, we are all proud to be

Scottish. We have huge control over our health, our education, our

policing. But we stand together with other people too, we stand with our

friend in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are the most

professional armed services in the world -- we have. I don't want to

see that ripped apart, we are part of a ?63 million market. Let's not

turn our biggest customer into our biggest competitor overnight. We can

be a better country without being separate. Let's pull together to

make that better country. Gist a sentence, Patrick Harvie? You heard

a lot about the bonds of friendship and family throughout these islands.

I feel those bonds as well. I feel the solidarity across these islands

as well. Part of my family, half my family comes from England, I studied

many Manchester, I feel the bonds of friendship and family. If I thought

independence was about breaking the bonds, I would be voting no. I think

this is not just about the ability to take responsibility for building

a better Scotland, but as many of my colleagues and friends south of the

border believe, it could spark the kind of democratic renewal that the

rest of the islands have been waiting for a long time for as well.

Demonstrating by our actions, a better, better, fairer, greener

society is possible. Let's take the chance and start building it.

Thank you. George Galloway? How could you not break bonds by making

other people foreigners, people who 're citizens of the same country as

us now? How could you not break bonds by breaking up a country of

English-speaking people, a Small Island, which has been together for

300 years, which has done many great things, some bad things, the

greatest of which in the last Battle of Britain was when united we stood

alone against Hitler's fascism. George Galloway, we'll have to

finish it here. Well, you can jeer, but ask your grandparents how

important it was that, as a united people, we stood alone in the world

otherwise we'd be having this conversation in German.

Thank you very much, George Galloway. Thank you so much everyone

here. I'm afraid, believe it or not, we have already run out of time. My

sincere thanks to the panel and to our very special audience who've

come to the SSE Hydrofrom schools all over Scotland, often in these

sorts of debates the politicians get the final say in the form of closing

speeches, but tonight, we have decided to give Scotland's young

voters the last word. From Glasgow, good night.

Let none wake despondent: one way or another we have talked

plainly, tested ourselves, weighed up the sum of our knowing, ta'en

tent o scholars, checked the balance sheet of risk and fearlessness,

of wisdom and of folly. Was it about the powers we

gain or how we use them? We aim for more equality; and

for tomorrow to be more peaceful than today; for fairness,

opportunity, the common weal; a hand stretched out in ready hospitality.

It's those unseen things that bind us, not flag or

battle-weary turf or tartan. There are dragons to

slay whatever happens: poverty, false pride, snobbery,

sectarian schisms still hovering. But there's nothing broken

that's not repairable. We're a citizenry of bonnie

fighters, a gathered folk; a culture that imparts, inspires, demands

a rare devotion, no back-tracking; that each should work and play

our several parts to bring about the best in Scotland, an open heart

As the eyes of the world focus on Scotland,

we wait to discover the future of the United Kingdom.

Will Scotland vote to become an independent country or stay

part of the Union, and what could this historic night mean for you?