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Deadly Liaisons

Mandy McAuley investigates the controversy around supergrass trials, following the acquittals of nine men of the UVF murder of UDA boss Tommy English.


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This programme contains strong This programme contains strong

:00:18.:00:27.

language.. The end of a loyalist supergrass trial that cost the

:00:27.:00:37.
:00:37.:00:41.

taxpayer millions of pounds. Nine men acquitted of murder, after the

:00:41.:00:45.

testimony of two state witness, the Stewart brothers was found to be

:00:45.:00:55.
:00:55.:01:32.

infected with lies. It would have been obvious to anyone. What is

:01:32.:01:34.

being done to investigate those alleged to have colluded with

:01:35.:01:42.

killers. The UVF trial that ended in the acquittals was the result of

:01:42.:01:52.
:01:52.:01:58.

a ground breaking report by the As a consequence, the position of

:01:58.:02:03.

the UVF, particularly in what Belfast was consolidated and

:02:03.:02:13.
:02:13.:02:21.

Most significantly, the Ombudsman believes the gang was riddled with

:02:21.:02:26.

police informers. Nuala O'Lone recommended that two investigations

:02:26.:02:36.
:02:36.:02:46.

be carried out as a matter of Tonight we can reveal five years on

:02:46.:02:51.

the investigation into allegations of police collusion appears to be

:02:51.:03:01.

going nowhere. We hear about deep concerns of what are seen as

:03:01.:03:05.

failure to follow through on recommendation to pursue those

:03:05.:03:13.

suspected of colluding in murder. don't quite understand why, no

:03:13.:03:23.
:03:23.:03:24.

action was taken, because there is a statutory duty. My belief is the

:03:24.:03:28.

current ombudsman is under the same obligations I was and this should

:03:28.:03:33.

have been investigated. If you have police officers who were handlers,

:03:33.:03:37.

that needs to be dealt with as matter of priority. It really needs

:03:37.:03:41.

to be dealt with as matter of priority. Particularly where the

:03:41.:03:48.

crimes are murder. The ombudsman says all will be investigated and

:03:48.:03:53.

it complies with its statutory duty. How high did the alleged collusion

:03:53.:04:00.

with murder go? And what else do the Supergrasss have to reveal? It

:04:00.:04:07.

is not just about the UVF. These people may well been the puppets on

:04:07.:04:16.

the end of strings. Who dropped the practices and policies of that

:04:16.:04:26.
:04:26.:04:37.

Hallowe'en night 2000. Traditionally, a family time.

:04:37.:04:39.

Newtonabbey Tommy English and his wife were at home with their three

:04:39.:04:48.

young children. Tommy was a one time UDA boss in North Belfast who

:04:48.:04:52.

had become involved in the peace process. He was a prominent member

:04:52.:04:56.

of the UDP. Just after tea time, Tommy and his wife Doreen were

:04:56.:05:00.

watching television in the living room. Their children, aged ten and

:05:00.:05:09.

under, were playing upstairs. Hearing a noise dar reen -- Doreen

:05:09.:05:15.

opened the back door to find men puts on masks, ready to sledge

:05:15.:05:18.

hammer their way into her house. They were pushing me and slapping

:05:18.:05:26.

me about with guns to get out of the road, and chaos, really. The

:05:26.:05:31.

biggest guy, he aimed the gun again, and I went for his face, just for

:05:31.:05:38.

his eye, to try and stop him, seeing what he was doing. And after

:05:38.:05:42.

that, I was hit in the head and the face with a gun, and punched a few

:05:42.:05:52.
:05:52.:05:53.

times. Tommy was shot in the back, as he tried to run upstairs.

:05:53.:06:02.

Towards his children. He stopped and stared. All of a sudden, two

:06:02.:06:11.

men came to the bottom of the stairs. It was really just, bangs,

:06:11.:06:21.

you were hearing bang, and sort of blinking with the shock of the bang.

:06:21.:06:27.

And my dad started to fall backwards down the stairs. He

:06:27.:06:34.

landed in the hallway. They beat my mum so bad she was literally blood

:06:34.:06:40.

smeared all over her face, her clothes. We actually thought it was

:06:40.:06:45.

my dad's blood. The gunmen left and Mark's young sister ran into the

:06:45.:06:54.

street. I ran out the door, screaming for help, in bare feet,

:06:54.:06:58.

and I got to the neighbours and bashed their window, screaming for

:06:58.:07:02.

help, saying "Something's happened to my daddy, I neat help." They

:07:02.:07:06.

told me to go away, but I think they thought it was a Hallowe'en

:07:06.:07:13.

prank, and so I just kept running. And screaming. Mince later, two of

:07:13.:07:20.

the gunmen came back. They checked Thomas, and I lifted the phone, and

:07:20.:07:26.

I could hear what sounded to be the biggest one shouting "Get back here

:07:26.:07:31.

and finish the bastard off." Three times he shouted that and I was

:07:31.:07:36.

phoning for an ambulance, and then I started veeming "Please leave him

:07:36.:07:42.

alone. Don't shoot him again." And the smaller one shot him again.

:07:42.:07:45.

Mark and his twin brother Thomas junior pictured here as toddlers

:07:45.:07:52.

were beside their father, as he lay dying at the bottom of the stairs.

:07:52.:08:02.
:08:02.:08:02.

We were terrified. Really terrified. We couldn't stop screaming. We sort

:08:02.:08:11.

of sat, stood for a while, and, in shock, we couldn't move. We were

:08:11.:08:16.

screaming, it was absolutely horrendous. Horrifying. For a child

:08:16.:08:24.

of that age, to watch their own parent die. Soon after the murder,

:08:24.:08:29.

police contacted Doreen with news of a potential lead. A man had been

:08:29.:08:34.

caught on CCTV, buying the sledge hammer which had been used in the

:08:34.:08:41.

attack. But Doreen English was about to get a terrible shock.

:08:41.:08:46.

brought me in, and asked me if I could be, if I would look at the

:08:46.:08:54.

photograph to see if I knew the person in that, and it was

:08:54.:08:59.

horrendous. I just couldn't believe my eyes. The man she was looking at

:08:59.:09:05.

in the footage, is her brother, Neil Pollock. It was one of the

:09:05.:09:11.

worst things I've ever had to do, was to say that's my brother. You

:09:11.:09:20.

know. It was just heart wrenching. Doreen helped to raise her young

:09:20.:09:26.

brother seen here as a page boy to her marriage to Tommy. Neil would

:09:26.:09:32.

join the couple on family holidays. Every day at the trial, Doreen

:09:32.:09:36.

faced her brother in the dock. He was found guilty of possessing an

:09:36.:09:40.

item intended for terrorism and of intent to pervert the course of

:09:40.:09:43.

justice. But Doreen believes he knows a lot more about her

:09:43.:09:50.

husband's death. What would you say to your brother, Neil, today,

:09:50.:09:58.

because he could help put your husband's murderers away. Well, I

:09:58.:10:03.

would just say "Neil my daddy brought you up with more morals,

:10:03.:10:09.

and I am just dumbfounded that you haven't had the decency in you to

:10:09.:10:13.

do the right thing, and I know it's a hard thing to do, to tell the

:10:13.:10:19.

truth, when there's so many people out there that's wanting to harm

:10:19.:10:22.

you, but I don't know how you will live with yourself if you don't do

:10:22.:10:26.

the right thing and tell what you know." At the time of the murder

:10:26.:10:32.

police said that the death was part of a bloody UDA, yuvyuv feud but

:10:32.:10:36.

Doreen says there may have been deeply personal motives for the

:10:36.:10:39.

selection of her husband as a target. Asked by police if she knew

:10:39.:10:44.

of anyone who wanted to do her husband harm she named two men. One

:10:44.:10:49.

was this man, Mark Haddock who has just been acquitted of the murder.

:10:49.:10:53.

Haddock and Thomas never seen eye to eye, the similar reason Thomas

:10:53.:10:58.

was in the UDA, he was in the UVF. They had a lot of run ins and it

:10:58.:11:04.

was more like a macho thing. Thomas wouldn't back down to him. They

:11:04.:11:09.

just hated each other. And the other was this man, John Bond, who

:11:09.:11:13.

was also acquitted. Doreen's brother-in-law who was married to

:11:13.:11:18.

her sister Christine. Christine Bond had an affair with Tommy

:11:18.:11:25.

English. They lived together for about four months. She had left

:11:25.:11:31.

John for Thomas and Thomas left her and she ended up with John. Apart

:11:31.:11:34.

from her brother the only two people who have been convicted of

:11:34.:11:38.

involvement in the murder of Tommy English are the Stewart brother,

:11:38.:11:44.

Robert and Ian who in August 2009 became assisting offenders. Doreen

:11:44.:11:48.

English says police told her that the brothers handed themselves in,

:11:48.:11:52.

just weeks after coming upon the scene of a motorbike accident, in

:11:52.:11:57.

which her son Thomas junior was killed. The boy, who was beside his

:11:57.:12:01.

father as he lay dying. According to police, the incident had a

:12:01.:12:06.

profound effect on the Stewarts. Who later confessed their role in

:12:06.:12:13.

the murder and implicated 14 other loyalists in up to 30 offences.

:12:13.:12:23.
:12:23.:12:25.

They said that they had been having a hard time dealing with their part

:12:25.:12:28.

in Thomas's murder. And that our son died in a wee motorbike

:12:28.:12:32.

accident, and they said that they passed the scene that night that he

:12:33.:12:40.

-- died, and saw him, and after that, they went to England for a

:12:40.:12:44.

couple of weeks, and then basically couldn't live with themselves, it

:12:44.:12:47.

was like the last straw for them. That broke their back, so they

:12:47.:12:57.
:12:57.:12:59.

The only good thing they came out of her brother's death, was the

:12:59.:13:04.

impact that seemed to have had on the stewards. You are always asking

:13:04.:13:11.

why. I went to myself, this is why he has died, to give us just us.

:13:11.:13:18.

That is Thomas's reason. I always thought, this is just this for us,

:13:18.:13:24.

he has died for just this. I also said to myself, it does show that

:13:24.:13:28.

the brothers to have remorse. there can be little doubt that the

:13:28.:13:32.

stewards decision was also influenced by the fact that they

:13:32.:13:39.

got 15 years of their sentence for murder. In his judgment, the judge

:13:39.:13:45.

described the Stewart Brothers as a ruthless criminals whose evidence

:13:45.:13:50.

was full of lies Anne's the memory was affected by many years of drug

:13:50.:13:58.

abuse. The judge said that these were obviously the same men wearing

:13:58.:14:03.

new suits. Robert Stewart also admitted it Fenty had had sex with

:14:03.:14:07.

a series of under-aged children. Revelations about the brothers

:14:07.:14:12.

raised a number of hard questions at for the prosecution service and

:14:13.:14:18.

the police, given that the case cost �15 million. How good the

:14:18.:14:21.

Public Prosecution Service had been the brothers to be credible

:14:21.:14:28.

witnesses, given the lack of any credible supporting evidence? The

:14:28.:14:33.

director of the PPS it recently told the BBC that he was satisfied

:14:33.:14:38.

there was a case to answer. There is a basis for being extremely

:14:38.:14:45.

careful in the way of the evidence in a case such as this and. I am

:14:45.:14:49.

satisfied that there was a very careful consideration of the

:14:49.:14:54.

material in this case. The police spent two years assessing the

:14:54.:14:58.

Stewart Brothers, but stressed that the deal was a matter for the PDS.

:14:58.:15:08.
:15:08.:15:17.

While the murder of Tommy English was one of a number of killings

:15:17.:15:22.

investigated by the former Police Ombudsman NEWLINE alone, the report

:15:22.:15:27.

itself had been triggered by the father of a murder victim. Raymond

:15:27.:15:31.

mid-court had bought a complaint to her office in 2003. He believed

:15:31.:15:36.

that his son had been murdered by members of the UVF gang and that

:15:36.:15:40.

the police investigation had been hampered because the killers were

:15:40.:15:44.

Special Branch informers. In the course of the investigation, at

:15:44.:15:49.

Nuala O'Lone looked again at up to 15 murders which she suspected have

:15:49.:15:54.

not been properly investigated by police because at least four of the

:15:54.:15:58.

chief suspects were Special Branch Agents, actively involved in the

:15:58.:16:05.

UVF murder operations. Of the four police agents mentioned, informant

:16:05.:16:10.

one is now widely believed to be this man, Mark Haddock. He was one

:16:10.:16:14.

of the two men whose names of Doreen English says she gave to

:16:14.:16:20.

police and the night of her husband's murder. He was actually

:16:20.:16:26.

arrested for questioning shortly after Thomas was murdered and he

:16:26.:16:33.

was found to have documents in his car with Thomas's name, address,

:16:33.:16:38.

registration and make of car. O'Lone's report confirmed that

:16:38.:16:43.

there was intelligence linking Mark Haddock and three of his associates

:16:43.:16:47.

to the killing of Tommy English. They were arrested a week later for

:16:47.:16:52.

provided alibis for each other and were released without charge. I

:16:52.:16:56.

first investigated Mark Haddock in 2006. At that stage I was unable to

:16:56.:17:01.

name him for legal reasons, but I spoke to the man who first

:17:01.:17:06.

recruited him as a CID informer. Speaking publicly for the first

:17:07.:17:10.

time Trevor Mackle wrath told me that alarm bells began ringing

:17:10.:17:15.

after his agent was recruited by Special Branch in 1991. Be heard

:17:15.:17:19.

reports that Mark Haddock have been arrested as the driver in a

:17:19.:17:23.

suspected murder, only to be released cater without charge.

:17:23.:17:30.

could not be seen to be the only one that got away. The gunman was

:17:30.:17:37.

caught, he was the driver, so he was called, too. He spent six or

:17:37.:17:43.

nine months on demand, then one day the charges were withdrawn. Or

:17:43.:17:49.

dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions. But from the moment

:17:49.:17:54.

he got into the murder car he was never going to be prosecuted for

:17:54.:18:03.

that murder bid. No. They go so was an informer? Correct. It in 2006

:18:03.:18:07.

Michael wrath was adamant that he had alerted his superiors did the

:18:07.:18:10.

fact that an agent was out of control, but he was repeatedly

:18:10.:18:18.

ignored. How high up to disco on? Senior ranking policeman would have

:18:18.:18:25.

known? Yes. He in the 1990s most of the victims of the UVF were

:18:25.:18:30.

loyalists. But some of the attacks on local nationalists were purely

:18:30.:18:34.

sectarian, including to one Mark Haddock and his gang are alleged to

:18:34.:18:43.

have carried out on this man, whose case was also re-examined. In March

:18:43.:18:46.

1992 John Flynn worked for a Catholic taxi firm near Mount

:18:46.:18:51.

Vernon. One evening he was called to wait at the hospital were a

:18:51.:18:58.

gunman was lying in wait. I went down towards five, head the horn.

:18:58.:19:02.

Nobody was about. Two minutes later somebody appeared out of the

:19:02.:19:10.

darkness. With a grey hooded top. He pulled a weapon. It didn't go

:19:10.:19:18.

off, so I ran and he ran after me. I fell and he stood over me. The

:19:19.:19:23.

weapon did not work again, you know? I don't know where I got the

:19:23.:19:28.

string from, but I grabbed him and the weapon. I knew once I got my

:19:28.:19:34.

hands on its that I had a chance, you know? He would not let go of it

:19:34.:19:42.

and either we dive. I lifted him clean off the ground. Through the

:19:42.:19:49.

window. In the doctor's surgery. Was the attacker wearing a mask?

:19:49.:19:59.
:19:59.:20:07.

Know. What did he look like? I give a Photofit at the police station.

:20:07.:20:15.

He had short dark hair, skin Head tide. Moustache. Well built. Tattoo.

:20:15.:20:21.

Where was the tattoo? On his arm. The description resembled some of

:20:21.:20:27.

the details of the appearance of Mark Haddock. Intelligence sources

:20:27.:20:32.

at the time pointed to the Mark Haddock. Agents after that told us

:20:32.:20:38.

that Mark Haddock had done that. John Flynn says he believes the

:20:38.:20:41.

attacker's prints were on the gun that was left that the scene and

:20:41.:20:46.

possibly his blood on his clothes. In 1997 the UVF tried to kill him

:20:46.:20:52.

again by printing a bomb under his car. The two days later I got a

:20:52.:21:01.

mass card through the post. It said on it, third time lucky. UVF,

:21:01.:21:07.

Tiger's Bay. Nuala O'Lone concluded that the collusion was systemic.

:21:07.:21:11.

She found evidence that police had withheld information about agents

:21:11.:21:15.

suspected of murder and subjected informants to sham interviews

:21:15.:21:20.

before releasing them without charge. She also found that Special

:21:20.:21:25.

Branch had routinely destroyed a evidence linking agents to crimes.

:21:25.:21:30.

Nuala O'Lone was convinced that this was a deliberate strategy and

:21:30.:21:33.

that junior officers could not have operated as they did without what

:21:33.:21:41.

she called knowledge and support at the highest levels of the RUC, PSNI.

:21:41.:21:46.

It was very, very shocking and remains shocking. Where we had

:21:46.:21:52.

found clear evidence of collusion, were we have found clear evidence

:21:52.:21:56.

that crimes which had been admitted to, of which police were aware, had

:21:56.:22:02.

not been prosecuted. Crimes which clearly required proper

:22:02.:22:06.

investigation and had not been investigated. Nuala O'Lone was so

:22:06.:22:10.

shocked by the potential scale of the collusion that she recommended

:22:10.:22:16.

that not only should the killers be investigated properly, but also

:22:16.:22:19.

allegations that handlers and their superiors had been involved in

:22:19.:22:24.

murder, but so far not a single charge has resulted from the second

:22:24.:22:31.

investigation. So, why has one of the investigations fallen so far

:22:31.:22:36.

behind the other? In 2007 the Historical Enquiries Team was asked

:22:36.:22:40.

to implement the recommendations of the ballast report. The lawyer who

:22:40.:22:44.

acts on behalf of some of the victims says that his impression

:22:44.:22:49.

was that the Historical Enquiries Team was making good progress.

:22:49.:22:54.

were getting good teeth into this case, as I understand it, and were

:22:54.:23:00.

examining all aspects, including the investigation of handlers.

:23:00.:23:05.

2009 the investigation into loyalist killings was transferred

:23:05.:23:08.

to the police's Serious Crime Branch. The police said this was

:23:08.:23:12.

the most appropriate mechanism to take the work forward and the

:23:12.:23:15.

investigation of the police handlers and controllers was

:23:15.:23:20.

transferred to the ombudsman's office. But three years later there

:23:20.:23:23.

appears to have been little movement. We understand that as

:23:23.:23:28.

recently as last month there were just two officers are signed to the

:23:28.:23:30.

investigation of handlers and controllers are suspected of

:23:30.:23:35.

involvement in serious crimes, including murder. A situation which

:23:35.:23:38.

we understand the Ombudsman has attributed to a serious lack of

:23:38.:23:46.

resources. Nuala O'Lone says that if that is the case, it is just not

:23:46.:23:51.

good enough. I tell you something, it is possible to do this with

:23:51.:23:56.

maybe a dozen members of staff. Certainly, the number of

:23:56.:24:00.

investigators that the Police Ombudsman has, and with the number

:24:00.:24:04.

of investigators whom I had working on historical cases, we managed to

:24:04.:24:09.

do it. He if you were still the ombudsman, with the investigation

:24:09.:24:12.

of handlers and their controllers be your priority? I would have

:24:12.:24:19.

carried on from where I left off. As the evidence began to come

:24:19.:24:22.

through from the police investigations, I would have been

:24:22.:24:27.

proceeding with my investigations. We as the Ombudsman to confirm how

:24:27.:24:31.

many staff had been assigned to this investigation since 2009 and

:24:31.:24:35.

how much funding had been requested for this aspect of its

:24:35.:24:45.
:24:45.:25:06.

investigation? Has anyone been Some of the families of the victims

:25:06.:25:10.

are also deeply troubled by the fact that they had thought that

:25:10.:25:14.

both investigations into the alleged killers and the police

:25:14.:25:18.

handlers were being supervised by a specially established oversight

:25:18.:25:22.

panel consisting of Nuala O'Lone and a leading barrister, Richard

:25:22.:25:28.

Harvey. In reality, the panel is only looking at the investigation

:25:28.:25:38.
:25:38.:25:42.

into loyalists. One of the concerns which Richard Hardy and I have is

:25:42.:25:47.

that if the Police Ombudsman is in doing their handler and controllers

:25:47.:25:51.

stuff, they are not investigating that, but the police are

:25:51.:25:55.

investigating murders. It is not impossible that you might end up

:25:55.:25:59.

with somebody charged in court to turns round in court and says,

:25:59.:26:05.

actually, my handler told me I could do this. Then there would be

:26:05.:26:09.

serious problems. It is important that the Police Ombudsman is

:26:09.:26:13.

working as fast as the police. of those who criticised the speed

:26:13.:26:17.

of the investigation into handlers believes that the failure of the

:26:17.:26:21.

reasons Supergrass trial may have been a deliberate attempt to

:26:21.:26:28.

frustrate justice. People other than Special Branch handlers and

:26:28.:26:34.

controllers have been used this scapegoats to promote in a

:26:34.:26:39.

disproportionate way and downsize the key sensitive investigation

:26:39.:26:44.

then needs to take place, and that is a full-scale criminal

:26:44.:26:47.

investigation against the Special Branch handlers and controllers.

:26:47.:26:52.

That has not happened. Instead there has been a diversion and the

:26:52.:26:58.

focus of money and resources, millions of pounds, to promote what

:26:58.:27:04.

a month you could be perceived as a showcase supergrass trial to the

:27:04.:27:09.

exclusion of the other core component of Operation Ballast.

:27:09.:27:19.
:27:19.:27:21.

is a view shared by the Committee on the administration of justice.

:27:21.:27:26.

It is a mystery to us sitting on the outside why no other

:27:26.:27:31.

prosecutions have taken place prior to this. In relation to the matters

:27:32.:27:35.

that were uncovered in the ballast report that would have used other

:27:35.:27:45.

types of evidence that might have been more effective why do you

:27:45.:27:52.

think? Whether it's to prevent embarrassment or cover up the

:27:52.:27:58.

misconduct of police officers. But that is the case it is unacceptable.

:27:58.:28:04.

No one is above the law. There is now growing specification that's

:28:04.:28:09.

the forthcoming Gary Haggarty trial that will finally bring the police

:28:09.:28:15.

handlers and their agents to ahead. Haggarty turned Supergrass after he

:28:15.:28:20.

was charged with the murder of John Harman's son in 1997. The dried

:28:20.:28:26.

fruit -- the body of a taxi driver was found in Mount Vernon. He had

:28:26.:28:31.

been beaten beyond recognition. His co-accused in their case is Mark

:28:31.:28:35.

Haddock. So, given the acquittals in the recent supergrass case, does

:28:35.:28:40.

the UVF have much to fear from the forthcoming Hegarty trial? They

:28:41.:28:46.

might say, look at the Stuart case, look at how it ended. Will the

:28:46.:28:52.

Hegarty case be any different? we got anything more to fear?

:28:53.:28:57.

spoke to a senior loyalist, someone who would know Hegarty very well

:28:57.:29:03.

and he said compare to the Stewarts, Hegarty would be A* witness. A

:29:03.:29:08.

memory as sharp as a razor. Someone referred to as Mr gadget. He walked

:29:08.:29:14.

about with all sorts of gadgetry and recording equipment. What the

:29:14.:29:17.

loyalist leadership fears is that he may have recorded some of their

:29:17.:29:22.

meetings. Gary Hegarty reaches of the on the UPF. It is level of the

:29:23.:29:28.

organisation he would have sat at meetings of the military command,

:29:28.:29:33.

so do they fear him more than the Stewart Brothers? They did fear his

:29:33.:29:39.

information, his credibility, his status more. Loyalist spokes people

:29:39.:29:44.

such as Ken Watkinson warned of dire consequences if the assisting

:29:44.:29:48.

offenders system is used to prosecute senior UVF figures.

:29:48.:29:52.

People have to look at what they are bringing down an art community.

:29:52.:29:59.

I stress quite clearly now that if they continue with these they are

:29:59.:30:03.

going to destabilise loyalist communities. When you say

:30:03.:30:08.

destabilise, what do you mean? people who are there within

:30:08.:30:14.

loyalism, of within the section of loyalism that I deal with have been

:30:14.:30:19.

there for the last 30 years working at that to bring down a peaceful

:30:19.:30:24.

roads, and they have achieved that. Why take people back? Out take

:30:24.:30:30.

these people out of our society, the stabilisers? Why leave the

:30:30.:30:37.

young hawks are there? In a way, that is a threat. So, should be not

:30:37.:30:41.

go after the UVF because it might destabilise that leadership? Or are

:30:41.:30:48.

we not going after that UVF leadership because the real story

:30:48.:30:52.

is were dead UVF leadership takes you to? It takes you to see people

:30:52.:30:56.

and to see places and those people in those places are not meant to be

:30:56.:31:02.

seen. One pointer as to how this might happen can be seen him walk

:31:02.:31:06.

Ken Watkinson says is his attitude to the naming of police handlers

:31:06.:31:14.

and their superiors. We all want to know. We want to know who the

:31:14.:31:19.

handlers are. These people are damaging our society, my community.

:31:19.:31:26.

I think it goes right to the very top of government. I think they

:31:26.:31:30.

have to look at themselves. Sometimes these people might have

:31:30.:31:34.

to look in the mirror instead of continually pointing the finger --

:31:34.:31:42.

pointing the finger against us. Last week Gary Haggarty lost... he

:31:42.:31:46.

gave police as an assisting an offender over two years of

:31:46.:31:49.

intensive debriefing so. The court heard that on those tapes he has

:31:49.:31:53.

made allegations of criminality by him and by others including police

:31:53.:32:02.

officers. The Haggarty case offers a significant opportunity to

:32:02.:32:06.

advance the investigation of police handlers, according to Nuala O'Lone.

:32:06.:32:11.

There is currently another assisting offenders like the

:32:11.:32:16.

Stewart Brothers being interviewed. The Police Ombudsman is Billy aware

:32:16.:32:21.

of what is happening in that. Any material which has been given by

:32:21.:32:27.

that person which relates to police officer misconduct or criminality,

:32:28.:32:33.

the Police Ombudsman will already have. I guess if I was the Police

:32:33.:32:36.

Ombudsman that would be being followed up. It seems to me from

:32:36.:32:42.

what is being said that they have not got to that stage. Last night

:32:42.:32:52.
:32:52.:32:58.

In the meantime, John Flynn says he will keep fighting until he gets

:32:58.:33:04.

justice. He is taking a judicial review against the Police Ombudsman

:33:04.:33:08.

and the Chief Constable to explain the lack of movement in the current

:33:08.:33:13.

investigation into alleged collusion. Would you encourage

:33:13.:33:17.

former Special Branch handlers to co-operate in any future inquiry?

:33:17.:33:21.

think that people should co-operate as much as possible. I would urge

:33:21.:33:26.

people in as much as they feel they can themselves to come forward and

:33:26.:33:29.

Corporate because it is in the interests of all of us to make sure

:33:29.:33:34.

that the trip comes out and that justice is done. That is the key

:33:34.:33:39.

point as far as the public is concerned to -- confirmed, that

:33:39.:33:43.

victims get justice. As to whether or not the role of loyalist and

:33:43.:33:47.

republican informants and their handlers will ever see the light of

:33:47.:33:53.

day, opinions are divided. We are meant to live with this notion that

:33:53.:33:57.

this was a place of warring tribes that had within it an honest

:33:57.:34:02.

referee. The honest referee became a player in the war. That is why we

:34:03.:34:07.

talk about the dirty war and its ugly truths. I think that is why

:34:07.:34:13.

they will always be barriers in the way of a trip process and it is why

:34:13.:34:19.

we will never have MI5, the Special Branch, the army, the police in the

:34:19.:34:25.

same room with the IRA and loyalists. Do you think the trip

:34:25.:34:29.

will ever come out? I think the truth has a way of coming out

:34:29.:34:33.

eventually, yes. I don't think anyone would have expected there

:34:33.:34:36.

Mandy McAuley investigates the controversy around supergrass trials, following the acquittals of nine men of the UVF murder of UDA boss Tommy English.


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