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This programme contains strong This programme contains strong | :00:18. | :00:27. | |
language.. The end of a loyalist supergrass trial that cost the | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
:00:37. | :00:41. | ||
taxpayer millions of pounds. Nine men acquitted of murder, after the | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
testimony of two state witness, the Stewart brothers was found to be | :00:45. | :00:55. | |
:00:55. | :01:32. | ||
infected with lies. It would have been obvious to anyone. What is | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
being done to investigate those alleged to have colluded with | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
killers. The UVF trial that ended in the acquittals was the result of | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
:01:52. | :01:58. | ||
a ground breaking report by the As a consequence, the position of | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
the UVF, particularly in what Belfast was consolidated and | :02:03. | :02:13. | |
:02:13. | :02:21. | ||
Most significantly, the Ombudsman believes the gang was riddled with | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
police informers. Nuala O'Lone recommended that two investigations | :02:26. | :02:36. | |
:02:36. | :02:46. | ||
be carried out as a matter of Tonight we can reveal five years on | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
the investigation into allegations of police collusion appears to be | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
going nowhere. We hear about deep concerns of what are seen as | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
failure to follow through on recommendation to pursue those | :03:05. | :03:13. | |
suspected of colluding in murder. don't quite understand why, no | :03:13. | :03:23. | |
:03:23. | :03:24. | ||
action was taken, because there is a statutory duty. My belief is the | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
current ombudsman is under the same obligations I was and this should | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
have been investigated. If you have police officers who were handlers, | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
that needs to be dealt with as matter of priority. It really needs | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
to be dealt with as matter of priority. Particularly where the | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
crimes are murder. The ombudsman says all will be investigated and | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
it complies with its statutory duty. How high did the alleged collusion | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
with murder go? And what else do the Supergrasss have to reveal? It | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
is not just about the UVF. These people may well been the puppets on | :04:07. | :04:16. | |
the end of strings. Who dropped the practices and policies of that | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
:04:26. | :04:37. | ||
Hallowe'en night 2000. Traditionally, a family time. | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
Newtonabbey Tommy English and his wife were at home with their three | :04:39. | :04:48. | |
young children. Tommy was a one time UDA boss in North Belfast who | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
had become involved in the peace process. He was a prominent member | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
of the UDP. Just after tea time, Tommy and his wife Doreen were | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
watching television in the living room. Their children, aged ten and | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
under, were playing upstairs. Hearing a noise dar reen -- Doreen | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
opened the back door to find men puts on masks, ready to sledge | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
hammer their way into her house. They were pushing me and slapping | :05:18. | :05:26. | |
me about with guns to get out of the road, and chaos, really. The | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
biggest guy, he aimed the gun again, and I went for his face, just for | :05:31. | :05:38. | |
his eye, to try and stop him, seeing what he was doing. And after | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
that, I was hit in the head and the face with a gun, and punched a few | :05:42. | :05:52. | |
:05:52. | :05:53. | ||
times. Tommy was shot in the back, as he tried to run upstairs. | :05:53. | :06:02. | |
Towards his children. He stopped and stared. All of a sudden, two | :06:02. | :06:11. | |
men came to the bottom of the stairs. It was really just, bangs, | :06:11. | :06:21. | |
you were hearing bang, and sort of blinking with the shock of the bang. | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
And my dad started to fall backwards down the stairs. He | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
landed in the hallway. They beat my mum so bad she was literally blood | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
smeared all over her face, her clothes. We actually thought it was | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
my dad's blood. The gunmen left and Mark's young sister ran into the | :06:45. | :06:54. | |
street. I ran out the door, screaming for help, in bare feet, | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
and I got to the neighbours and bashed their window, screaming for | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
help, saying "Something's happened to my daddy, I neat help." They | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
told me to go away, but I think they thought it was a Hallowe'en | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
prank, and so I just kept running. And screaming. Mince later, two of | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
the gunmen came back. They checked Thomas, and I lifted the phone, and | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
I could hear what sounded to be the biggest one shouting "Get back here | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
and finish the bastard off." Three times he shouted that and I was | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
phoning for an ambulance, and then I started veeming "Please leave him | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
alone. Don't shoot him again." And the smaller one shot him again. | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
Mark and his twin brother Thomas junior pictured here as toddlers | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
were beside their father, as he lay dying at the bottom of the stairs. | :07:52. | :08:02. | |
:08:02. | :08:02. | ||
We were terrified. Really terrified. We couldn't stop screaming. We sort | :08:02. | :08:11. | |
of sat, stood for a while, and, in shock, we couldn't move. We were | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
screaming, it was absolutely horrendous. Horrifying. For a child | :08:16. | :08:24. | |
of that age, to watch their own parent die. Soon after the murder, | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
police contacted Doreen with news of a potential lead. A man had been | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
caught on CCTV, buying the sledge hammer which had been used in the | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
attack. But Doreen English was about to get a terrible shock. | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
brought me in, and asked me if I could be, if I would look at the | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
photograph to see if I knew the person in that, and it was | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
horrendous. I just couldn't believe my eyes. The man she was looking at | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
in the footage, is her brother, Neil Pollock. It was one of the | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
worst things I've ever had to do, was to say that's my brother. You | :09:11. | :09:20. | |
know. It was just heart wrenching. Doreen helped to raise her young | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
brother seen here as a page boy to her marriage to Tommy. Neil would | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
join the couple on family holidays. Every day at the trial, Doreen | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
faced her brother in the dock. He was found guilty of possessing an | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
item intended for terrorism and of intent to pervert the course of | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
justice. But Doreen believes he knows a lot more about her | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
husband's death. What would you say to your brother, Neil, today, | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
because he could help put your husband's murderers away. Well, I | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
would just say "Neil my daddy brought you up with more morals, | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
and I am just dumbfounded that you haven't had the decency in you to | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
do the right thing, and I know it's a hard thing to do, to tell the | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
truth, when there's so many people out there that's wanting to harm | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
you, but I don't know how you will live with yourself if you don't do | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
the right thing and tell what you know." At the time of the murder | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
police said that the death was part of a bloody UDA, yuvyuv feud but | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
Doreen says there may have been deeply personal motives for the | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
selection of her husband as a target. Asked by police if she knew | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
of anyone who wanted to do her husband harm she named two men. One | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
was this man, Mark Haddock who has just been acquitted of the murder. | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
Haddock and Thomas never seen eye to eye, the similar reason Thomas | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
was in the UDA, he was in the UVF. They had a lot of run ins and it | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
was more like a macho thing. Thomas wouldn't back down to him. They | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
just hated each other. And the other was this man, John Bond, who | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
was also acquitted. Doreen's brother-in-law who was married to | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
her sister Christine. Christine Bond had an affair with Tommy | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
English. They lived together for about four months. She had left | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
John for Thomas and Thomas left her and she ended up with John. Apart | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
from her brother the only two people who have been convicted of | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
involvement in the murder of Tommy English are the Stewart brother, | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
Robert and Ian who in August 2009 became assisting offenders. Doreen | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
English says police told her that the brothers handed themselves in, | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
just weeks after coming upon the scene of a motorbike accident, in | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
which her son Thomas junior was killed. The boy, who was beside his | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
father as he lay dying. According to police, the incident had a | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
profound effect on the Stewarts. Who later confessed their role in | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
the murder and implicated 14 other loyalists in up to 30 offences. | :12:13. | :12:23. | |
:12:23. | :12:25. | ||
They said that they had been having a hard time dealing with their part | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
in Thomas's murder. And that our son died in a wee motorbike | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
accident, and they said that they passed the scene that night that he | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
-- died, and saw him, and after that, they went to England for a | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
couple of weeks, and then basically couldn't live with themselves, it | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
was like the last straw for them. That broke their back, so they | :12:47. | :12:57. | |
:12:57. | :12:59. | ||
The only good thing they came out of her brother's death, was the | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
impact that seemed to have had on the stewards. You are always asking | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
why. I went to myself, this is why he has died, to give us just us. | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
That is Thomas's reason. I always thought, this is just this for us, | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
he has died for just this. I also said to myself, it does show that | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
the brothers to have remorse. there can be little doubt that the | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
stewards decision was also influenced by the fact that they | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
got 15 years of their sentence for murder. In his judgment, the judge | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
described the Stewart Brothers as a ruthless criminals whose evidence | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
was full of lies Anne's the memory was affected by many years of drug | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
abuse. The judge said that these were obviously the same men wearing | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
new suits. Robert Stewart also admitted it Fenty had had sex with | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
a series of under-aged children. Revelations about the brothers | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
raised a number of hard questions at for the prosecution service and | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
the police, given that the case cost �15 million. How good the | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
Public Prosecution Service had been the brothers to be credible | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
witnesses, given the lack of any credible supporting evidence? The | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
director of the PPS it recently told the BBC that he was satisfied | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
there was a case to answer. There is a basis for being extremely | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
careful in the way of the evidence in a case such as this and. I am | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
satisfied that there was a very careful consideration of the | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
material in this case. The police spent two years assessing the | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Stewart Brothers, but stressed that the deal was a matter for the PDS. | :14:58. | :15:08. | |
:15:08. | :15:17. | ||
While the murder of Tommy English was one of a number of killings | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
investigated by the former Police Ombudsman NEWLINE alone, the report | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
itself had been triggered by the father of a murder victim. Raymond | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
mid-court had bought a complaint to her office in 2003. He believed | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
that his son had been murdered by members of the UVF gang and that | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
the police investigation had been hampered because the killers were | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
Special Branch informers. In the course of the investigation, at | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
Nuala O'Lone looked again at up to 15 murders which she suspected have | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
not been properly investigated by police because at least four of the | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
chief suspects were Special Branch Agents, actively involved in the | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
UVF murder operations. Of the four police agents mentioned, informant | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
one is now widely believed to be this man, Mark Haddock. He was one | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
of the two men whose names of Doreen English says she gave to | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
police and the night of her husband's murder. He was actually | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
arrested for questioning shortly after Thomas was murdered and he | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
was found to have documents in his car with Thomas's name, address, | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
registration and make of car. O'Lone's report confirmed that | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
there was intelligence linking Mark Haddock and three of his associates | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
to the killing of Tommy English. They were arrested a week later for | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
provided alibis for each other and were released without charge. I | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
first investigated Mark Haddock in 2006. At that stage I was unable to | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
name him for legal reasons, but I spoke to the man who first | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
recruited him as a CID informer. Speaking publicly for the first | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
time Trevor Mackle wrath told me that alarm bells began ringing | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
after his agent was recruited by Special Branch in 1991. Be heard | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
reports that Mark Haddock have been arrested as the driver in a | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
suspected murder, only to be released cater without charge. | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
could not be seen to be the only one that got away. The gunman was | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
caught, he was the driver, so he was called, too. He spent six or | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
nine months on demand, then one day the charges were withdrawn. Or | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions. But from the moment | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
he got into the murder car he was never going to be prosecuted for | :17:54. | :18:03. | |
that murder bid. No. They go so was an informer? Correct. It in 2006 | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Michael wrath was adamant that he had alerted his superiors did the | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
fact that an agent was out of control, but he was repeatedly | :18:10. | :18:18. | |
ignored. How high up to disco on? Senior ranking policeman would have | :18:18. | :18:25. | |
known? Yes. He in the 1990s most of the victims of the UVF were | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
loyalists. But some of the attacks on local nationalists were purely | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
sectarian, including to one Mark Haddock and his gang are alleged to | :18:34. | :18:43. | |
have carried out on this man, whose case was also re-examined. In March | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
1992 John Flynn worked for a Catholic taxi firm near Mount | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
Vernon. One evening he was called to wait at the hospital were a | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
gunman was lying in wait. I went down towards five, head the horn. | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
Nobody was about. Two minutes later somebody appeared out of the | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
darkness. With a grey hooded top. He pulled a weapon. It didn't go | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
off, so I ran and he ran after me. I fell and he stood over me. The | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
weapon did not work again, you know? I don't know where I got the | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
string from, but I grabbed him and the weapon. I knew once I got my | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
hands on its that I had a chance, you know? He would not let go of it | :19:34. | :19:42. | |
and either we dive. I lifted him clean off the ground. Through the | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
window. In the doctor's surgery. Was the attacker wearing a mask? | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
:19:59. | :20:07. | ||
Know. What did he look like? I give a Photofit at the police station. | :20:07. | :20:15. | |
He had short dark hair, skin Head tide. Moustache. Well built. Tattoo. | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
Where was the tattoo? On his arm. The description resembled some of | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
the details of the appearance of Mark Haddock. Intelligence sources | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
at the time pointed to the Mark Haddock. Agents after that told us | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
that Mark Haddock had done that. John Flynn says he believes the | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
attacker's prints were on the gun that was left that the scene and | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
possibly his blood on his clothes. In 1997 the UVF tried to kill him | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
again by printing a bomb under his car. The two days later I got a | :20:52. | :21:01. | |
mass card through the post. It said on it, third time lucky. UVF, | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
Tiger's Bay. Nuala O'Lone concluded that the collusion was systemic. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
She found evidence that police had withheld information about agents | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
suspected of murder and subjected informants to sham interviews | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
before releasing them without charge. She also found that Special | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
Branch had routinely destroyed a evidence linking agents to crimes. | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
Nuala O'Lone was convinced that this was a deliberate strategy and | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
that junior officers could not have operated as they did without what | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
she called knowledge and support at the highest levels of the RUC, PSNI. | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
It was very, very shocking and remains shocking. Where we had | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
found clear evidence of collusion, were we have found clear evidence | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
that crimes which had been admitted to, of which police were aware, had | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
not been prosecuted. Crimes which clearly required proper | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
investigation and had not been investigated. Nuala O'Lone was so | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
shocked by the potential scale of the collusion that she recommended | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
that not only should the killers be investigated properly, but also | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
allegations that handlers and their superiors had been involved in | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
murder, but so far not a single charge has resulted from the second | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
investigation. So, why has one of the investigations fallen so far | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
behind the other? In 2007 the Historical Enquiries Team was asked | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
to implement the recommendations of the ballast report. The lawyer who | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
acts on behalf of some of the victims says that his impression | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
was that the Historical Enquiries Team was making good progress. | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
were getting good teeth into this case, as I understand it, and were | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
examining all aspects, including the investigation of handlers. | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
2009 the investigation into loyalist killings was transferred | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
to the police's Serious Crime Branch. The police said this was | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
the most appropriate mechanism to take the work forward and the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
investigation of the police handlers and controllers was | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
transferred to the ombudsman's office. But three years later there | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
appears to have been little movement. We understand that as | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
recently as last month there were just two officers are signed to the | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
investigation of handlers and controllers are suspected of | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
involvement in serious crimes, including murder. A situation which | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
we understand the Ombudsman has attributed to a serious lack of | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
resources. Nuala O'Lone says that if that is the case, it is just not | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
good enough. I tell you something, it is possible to do this with | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
maybe a dozen members of staff. Certainly, the number of | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
investigators that the Police Ombudsman has, and with the number | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
of investigators whom I had working on historical cases, we managed to | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
do it. He if you were still the ombudsman, with the investigation | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
of handlers and their controllers be your priority? I would have | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
carried on from where I left off. As the evidence began to come | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
through from the police investigations, I would have been | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
proceeding with my investigations. We as the Ombudsman to confirm how | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
many staff had been assigned to this investigation since 2009 and | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
how much funding had been requested for this aspect of its | :24:35. | :24:45. | |
:24:45. | :25:06. | ||
investigation? Has anyone been Some of the families of the victims | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
are also deeply troubled by the fact that they had thought that | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
both investigations into the alleged killers and the police | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
handlers were being supervised by a specially established oversight | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
panel consisting of Nuala O'Lone and a leading barrister, Richard | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
Harvey. In reality, the panel is only looking at the investigation | :25:28. | :25:38. | |
:25:38. | :25:42. | ||
into loyalists. One of the concerns which Richard Hardy and I have is | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
that if the Police Ombudsman is in doing their handler and controllers | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
stuff, they are not investigating that, but the police are | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
investigating murders. It is not impossible that you might end up | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
with somebody charged in court to turns round in court and says, | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
actually, my handler told me I could do this. Then there would be | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
serious problems. It is important that the Police Ombudsman is | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
working as fast as the police. of those who criticised the speed | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
of the investigation into handlers believes that the failure of the | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
reasons Supergrass trial may have been a deliberate attempt to | :26:21. | :26:28. | |
frustrate justice. People other than Special Branch handlers and | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
controllers have been used this scapegoats to promote in a | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
disproportionate way and downsize the key sensitive investigation | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
then needs to take place, and that is a full-scale criminal | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
investigation against the Special Branch handlers and controllers. | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
That has not happened. Instead there has been a diversion and the | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
focus of money and resources, millions of pounds, to promote what | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
a month you could be perceived as a showcase supergrass trial to the | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
exclusion of the other core component of Operation Ballast. | :27:09. | :27:19. | |
:27:19. | :27:21. | ||
is a view shared by the Committee on the administration of justice. | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
It is a mystery to us sitting on the outside why no other | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
prosecutions have taken place prior to this. In relation to the matters | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
that were uncovered in the ballast report that would have used other | :27:35. | :27:45. | |
types of evidence that might have been more effective why do you | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
think? Whether it's to prevent embarrassment or cover up the | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
misconduct of police officers. But that is the case it is unacceptable. | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
No one is above the law. There is now growing specification that's | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
the forthcoming Gary Haggarty trial that will finally bring the police | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
handlers and their agents to ahead. Haggarty turned Supergrass after he | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
was charged with the murder of John Harman's son in 1997. The dried | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
fruit -- the body of a taxi driver was found in Mount Vernon. He had | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
been beaten beyond recognition. His co-accused in their case is Mark | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
Haddock. So, given the acquittals in the recent supergrass case, does | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
the UVF have much to fear from the forthcoming Hegarty trial? They | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
might say, look at the Stuart case, look at how it ended. Will the | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
Hegarty case be any different? we got anything more to fear? | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
spoke to a senior loyalist, someone who would know Hegarty very well | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
and he said compare to the Stewarts, Hegarty would be A* witness. A | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
memory as sharp as a razor. Someone referred to as Mr gadget. He walked | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
about with all sorts of gadgetry and recording equipment. What the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
loyalist leadership fears is that he may have recorded some of their | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
meetings. Gary Hegarty reaches of the on the UPF. It is level of the | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
organisation he would have sat at meetings of the military command, | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
so do they fear him more than the Stewart Brothers? They did fear his | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
information, his credibility, his status more. Loyalist spokes people | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
such as Ken Watkinson warned of dire consequences if the assisting | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
offenders system is used to prosecute senior UVF figures. | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
People have to look at what they are bringing down an art community. | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
I stress quite clearly now that if they continue with these they are | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
going to destabilise loyalist communities. When you say | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
destabilise, what do you mean? people who are there within | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
loyalism, of within the section of loyalism that I deal with have been | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
there for the last 30 years working at that to bring down a peaceful | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
roads, and they have achieved that. Why take people back? Out take | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
these people out of our society, the stabilisers? Why leave the | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
young hawks are there? In a way, that is a threat. So, should be not | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
go after the UVF because it might destabilise that leadership? Or are | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
we not going after that UVF leadership because the real story | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
is were dead UVF leadership takes you to? It takes you to see people | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
and to see places and those people in those places are not meant to be | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
seen. One pointer as to how this might happen can be seen him walk | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
Ken Watkinson says is his attitude to the naming of police handlers | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
and their superiors. We all want to know. We want to know who the | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
handlers are. These people are damaging our society, my community. | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
I think it goes right to the very top of government. I think they | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
have to look at themselves. Sometimes these people might have | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
to look in the mirror instead of continually pointing the finger -- | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
pointing the finger against us. Last week Gary Haggarty lost... he | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
gave police as an assisting an offender over two years of | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
intensive debriefing so. The court heard that on those tapes he has | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
made allegations of criminality by him and by others including police | :31:53. | :32:02. | |
officers. The Haggarty case offers a significant opportunity to | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
advance the investigation of police handlers, according to Nuala O'Lone. | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
There is currently another assisting offenders like the | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
Stewart Brothers being interviewed. The Police Ombudsman is Billy aware | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
of what is happening in that. Any material which has been given by | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
that person which relates to police officer misconduct or criminality, | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
the Police Ombudsman will already have. I guess if I was the Police | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
Ombudsman that would be being followed up. It seems to me from | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
what is being said that they have not got to that stage. Last night | :32:42. | :32:52. | |
:32:52. | :32:58. | ||
In the meantime, John Flynn says he will keep fighting until he gets | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
justice. He is taking a judicial review against the Police Ombudsman | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
and the Chief Constable to explain the lack of movement in the current | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
investigation into alleged collusion. Would you encourage | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
former Special Branch handlers to co-operate in any future inquiry? | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
think that people should co-operate as much as possible. I would urge | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
people in as much as they feel they can themselves to come forward and | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
Corporate because it is in the interests of all of us to make sure | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
that the trip comes out and that justice is done. That is the key | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
point as far as the public is concerned to -- confirmed, that | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
victims get justice. As to whether or not the role of loyalist and | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
republican informants and their handlers will ever see the light of | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
day, opinions are divided. We are meant to live with this notion that | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
this was a place of warring tribes that had within it an honest | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
referee. The honest referee became a player in the war. That is why we | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
talk about the dirty war and its ugly truths. I think that is why | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
they will always be barriers in the way of a trip process and it is why | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
we will never have MI5, the Special Branch, the army, the police in the | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
same room with the IRA and loyalists. Do you think the trip | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
will ever come out? I think the truth has a way of coming out | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
eventually, yes. I don't think anyone would have expected there | :34:33. | :34:36. |