Special Spotlight


Special

Mark Carruthers hosts as an audience put questions to Sammy Wilson, Gerry Kelly, Jim Allister, economist David McWilliams and academic and commentator Deirdre Heenan.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the programme. Tonight, another top-notch panel is

:00:36.:00:42.

here to tackle the big issues of the week. Sammy Wilson sits in the

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Executive as the finance minister. Gerry Kelly is a Sinn Fein MLA in

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Belfast. Deirdre Heenan belongs to the University of Ulster. Also

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drumming us tonight - David McWilliams, and then MLA for North

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Antrim. Tonight's questions come from

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members of our studio and audience. You can also have your say at home.

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You can also phone and e-mail us, and you can tweet your comments to

:01:29.:01:34.

us. The details on your screen now. Calls cost up to five pence per

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minute from most land lines. Calls from mobiles may cost considerably

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more. Our first question comes from Peter,

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a church minister from Port Stewart. I want us the panel - is there

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still an opportunity for leadership at Goodwood? Let us put that first

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to Professor Deirdre Heenan. When I first heard about good word, my

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initial reaction was, here we are, business as usual. A mix of

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frustration, anger and dismay that we would seriously think of

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conceding one of the core values of Northern Ireland, the allocation of

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social housing. Incredible, given the its historical significance.

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What we have to look at his watch to the possibilities here? How can

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this be a catalyst for real change in north Belfast? There are still

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possibilities, but we need to think big. We want to say, how can

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bespeak a game changed, an area that has suffered so much over the

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past 40, 80 years? What you want is a world class area, where

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individuals who do not live in north Belfast will go to world

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class leisure and facility services. It or not matter who lives in those

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houses. It will be some would we want to go. What we cannot have is

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a political carve up. If it looks like a car up, it smells like a car

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up, it is a cup up. It is unacceptable. The politicians have

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to realise that the people of Northern Ireland have moved on. We

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do not on this sectarianism any more, and we do not both -- and we

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do not one but as a legacy for our children. APPLAUSE. So you are

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saying it is a car up, and due regard this as a missed

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opportunity? We are going to have to think again. Many plans were

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drawn by the apparent European funding, and the closure of that

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funding. That is an example of hand to mouth policies. I think it is a

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calf up, but what we want is a catalyst for the regeneration of a

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terrier, to address the poverty that exists. I looked at what was

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being proposed, and yes, that is on the right direction, but not enough.

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We want people to think big and think outside the box and say, in

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the future, this whole area will be a world class area for regeneration.

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Sammy Wilson, a clear message there from to droop. If it looks like a

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car but, it is. First double, many of her attitude to these things

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will be influenced by what goes on in the news around us. For a number

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:04:49.:04:52.

of years, two successive ministers failed to come to any conclusions.

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One drove this fruit a week ago. This was been welcomed, not just by

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two particular parties, but by all of the party's. This was agreed and

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signed up to buy all of the parties in north Belfast, then it was

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decided to stop playing politics. Here is a site - it is in the

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middle of one of the most contested areas of Belfast. Yet 90% will be

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designed in a way to insure that it is a shared space, attract people

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from all sides of the community of north Belfast, it will be of such a

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standard the people from outside the area will also be attracted to

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:05:46.:05:47.

it. There are two areas of housing. But that is the whole point. It is

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not. Here is a site, 90% of which will be developed with high class

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facilities which will be shared by schools, Protestant and Catholic,

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shed in terms of sports on offer, shared by the communities

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surrounding that. I think that that in itself is an important facility

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fought a deprived area. The fact will have two areas of housing

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which currently... Many people have preached about this. I would like

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to see them go from the leafy suburbs and live in mixed

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communities in North Belfast. They preach about it, but were not

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practise it. This is not a mixed community. This is two separate

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segregated piecing of housing. present, we have to live with the

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reality that we have. If you can make this a shared space, I do not

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know what that housing will look like in 10 years' time. But we have

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to start from where we are. Some of the people who preach about it do

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not practise that integration too well. They live in safe areas and

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do not have to worry about the tensions that revolve around those

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areas. Some of your critics have asked the question - is this some

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kind of car up for the Maze prison? They have been upset together and a

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deal has been done between Sinn Fein and the do you people stop it

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was initially agreed by all the parties. It was agreed that a

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representative would be in north Belfast. Later on, they may well

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have thought there was political advantage in taking that line. But

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here is a site that lay neglected for a long time. A minister has

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driven with the local communities and politicians a plan which may

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well have some improvement, but tries to use this as they shared

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space. Jim Allister, are you satisfied with that? It is both a

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car up and a trade-off. The trade of I do believe is the Maze, were

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suddenly, after stopping the stadium because of the affiliation

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with the ugly prison buildings, suddenly, all of that which would

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create a shrine, is now acceptable. We now have a project, a so-called

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transformation and reconciliation centre. The key point of which is

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the hospital wing, where the hunger strike took place, are kept under

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an integral part of that. Some Sinn Fein politicians have boasted of

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story telling. The very sort of thing which the DPP said they would

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never accept because it would be... But you do not actually know that.

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One knows how this Government works. It is one trade-off against the

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other. Sinn Fein were demanding hundreds of houses. They would not

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move on that. Suddenly, they have conceded on that. What do they get

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in return? It looks obvious to me. They got the Maze. This is the

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trade-off. There is nothing about how this Executive functions. It is

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the politics of trade-off, and maize is a classic example of that.

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We the public were not even trusted to be told how many houses they

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would build. And how was it launched? Very interesting. They

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did not call a press conference. They brought their own photographer,

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took their own photographs. Then they released the news about it.

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They spent �4,000 of the taxpayers' money on employing the top of us to

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take photographs of the Executive. They could not trust themselves to

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be cross examined by the press. That is how they announced it.

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do you respond to that? Or that, for him, is enough evidence that

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this is a car up, and is what this Government is about. Is it? Is

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there a deal between north Belfast and the Maze? Absolutely.

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Everything is a car up to Jim. I was involved in negotiations. At no

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time was the Maze brought into this. In fact, the leadership in Sinn

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Fein did not know where we were with it. It was a local issue. And

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what amazes me a wee bit about this, I understand the cynicism and

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scepticism, in any other circumstance, in north Belfast,

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often described as a microcosm of the conflict, which has the most

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number of peace walls in the north, and we make a breakthrough. A

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potential breakthrough, in any case. A potential breakthrough for the

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first time. We get parties diametrically opposed. All the

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parties, because we have had five spokes people altogether, who did

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sign up to this, who agreed to it, and for the record, I was the one

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who did not want to do the press conference. We wanted the press

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conference. It was then agreed, in fairness to him, that we would do a

:11:58.:12:08.
:12:08.:12:14.

On the news for three days, he knows nothing about North Belfast.

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On one hand he is talking about cutting 350 families, another is

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200. Another is 220. This was never going to solve the problems.

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Objective need is at the basis of Sinn Fein policy. Why did you then

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roll back from a position were over 200 houses were going to be built

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for nationalists in the area? elyou. You are not answering that

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question. You are taking this site, you are talking about 27 acres.

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It's 14 acres. The other 13 are in the jail, you can't build houses in

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the jail. You were never going to solve the problem with that. What

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you were able to do was builds on it where there hasn't been a brick

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put down in six years. All the arguments against this is based on

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the fact that in some way people want it to be a derelict site for

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another ten years. The people of North Belfast deserve better.

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the urgent need of housing on North Belfast on the nationalist side of

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the house or the unionist side of the house There is a waiting list

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:13:29.:13:29.

of 2,400 families. Of that, 90% are nationalist. That is not 90%, 10%

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in terms of the housing build built. 200 other houses are being built in

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North Belfast. We have houses up in the numbers there will be 700 in

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the end. We are working in a lot of places to build houses. The

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concentration of this argument ended up on one side. You cannot

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just have housing without amenities. Three schools - Why have you given

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up on the basic principles of need and equality? Three schools which

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haven't had facilities for their children have them in the Girdwood

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site. Why have you given up on the basic principles of need? I have

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not. You have. No. Part of the SDLP are saying. That I haven't him

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saying it was a great idea. He has more detail there are serious

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issues he isn't happy with. Let's hear from David McWilliams. What do

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you make of what has been very much dominating the agenda here over the

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past week? If you look at it from the outside, to answer the

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gentleman's question about vision and leadership. It seems

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extraordinary, Mark, to me, absolutely extraordinary, that we

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will still be talking about this, what from the outside this narsism

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of small difference. If you say blacks live here and whites live

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here. You would be, you can't do that in this day of age. It strikes

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me as a southerner, married to a northerner, that the only way that

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this con stphrict can be made normal is if you school children

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together. Now, if you school children together you begin the

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process of familiarisation, were people hang out together. They

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realise, I'm of a southern Catholic background, married to my wife a

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northern Protestant. My children don't have horns. They have normal

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children. The only way you are going, to over the next ten years,

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begin the process of normalisation is if the leaders of the various

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different groups lead. And maybe, if you could put in the middle this

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an integrated school were the children should go. Not an option,

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but should go, so you have a responsibility as well with your

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housing rights. Ultimately, Mark, if this doesn't happen, we will go

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around the circle again and again much we will be here in 20 years

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time and there will be another issue like this. I want to go to

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the audience. In Girdwood you will have sports facilities which will

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be used by Catholic schools and grammar schools. They will not have

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an integrated school? No. They will have shared facilities that will

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enable that interface. That is visionary. It's divided and you

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begin the process of non-division at a young age were people realise

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they are not that different. David, thank you very much. I want to go

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to the audience. APPLAUSE

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Let's hear from Peter who asked the question. What is your response?

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appreciate David's point about visionary relationship and to start

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it early. Integrated education seems the best way of doing that.

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Do you believe there is a carve-up. Do you think there is a connection

:17:03.:17:09.

between what is happening in North Belfast and the Maze? It haes's

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hard for us on the outside to know. Will they do progressive steps and

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change things up. We don't want the same scenario in ten to 15 years

:17:19.:17:25.

time. On the left. I live in the North Belfast area, I would like

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the decisions made on the interface issues as well as equality for

:17:30.:17:35.

housing for all throughout Northern Ireland to be made in the Assembly.

:17:35.:17:39.

The people who made that decision struggled for six years to come to

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a decision which would accommodate some very ten yus issues in the

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community. Is it a good decision? Yes. It's a good decision because

:17:51.:17:53.

of the unique situation that happens in interfaces. The fact

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that we have the two largest parties coming together for this

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decision. I think the big thing is, why then, in two television

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programmes, was that six years of negotiation allowed to be pushed

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aside for a quick gimmick in the media. I think the media have acted

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irresponsiblibly in this. I'm not quite sure what you are talking

:18:21.:18:26.

about specifically. The most successful capital expenditure in

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Belfast in recent times hasn't involved to any great degree

:18:30.:18:35.

politicians or indeed social housing. Taking a greater

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appreciation of the Girdwood development has no-one considered

:18:38.:18:44.

that the University Ulster will decant less than 500 metres from

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the Girdwood barracks, to get involvement from them would take

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away contentiousness from that area? Part of the negotiations were

:18:55.:18:59.

with the University of Ulster and they were offered to look at the

:18:59.:19:06.

site and if they had any ideas. That conservation was done with

:19:06.:19:10.

them drve conversation was done with them. It will be a catalyst

:19:10.:19:14.

for regeneration and revive that whole area. That will have a knock-

:19:15.:19:20.

on effect. We need clarity on the basic issue and the issue that

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caused much contention. However many houses there are on that site,

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will they be allocated on the basis of objective need? If we have an

:19:29.:19:39.
:19:39.:19:39.

answer to that we can say there is an onus on the politicians and

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whatever else ifs on that site will have to be top-class, and people

:19:43.:19:46.

who don't live in the area will want to go there and people who

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live in the area will have confidence and pride about their

:19:50.:19:57.

communities. Will it be based on need? If you listen to Jonathan

:19:57.:20:03.

Bell, the two of us are speaking the same language. The law say it

:20:03.:20:09.

is has to be on need. Housing is allocated... Housing list comes

:20:09.:20:13.

down to individuals. Housing is allocated on the basis of an

:20:13.:20:18.

individual. If the individual has a need, it doesn't matter on their

:20:18.:20:24.

religion or were where they come from, they should be offered that

:20:24.:20:28.

house. Why wasn't the Housing Executive involved? Somebody over

:20:28.:20:31.

here said the Ulster University should be avoid. The Housing

:20:31.:20:36.

Executive may not of been involved. Isn't that just a little bit

:20:36.:20:39.

surprising? No. You have to understand, I don't know why you

:20:39.:20:43.

don't understand that parties who are so wide apart did not need

:20:43.:20:47.

somewhere quie tote sit down and work through their differences and

:20:47.:20:51.

come to a conclusion. Why don't you tell us how many houses. We don't

:20:51.:20:55.

know the answer to that. We have been talking about people not

:20:55.:20:59.

wanting to live together. You can see from the likes of Northern

:20:59.:21:04.

Ireland Life and Times Survey that people do want to live together.

:21:04.:21:08.

They don't want to move into old areas were they will be in a

:21:08.:21:12.

minority and won't feel security. This was a new site with the

:21:12.:21:15.

opportunity to allow people who wish to to live together. You've

:21:16.:21:20.

screwed that up. Well done. APPLAUSE

:21:20.:21:25.

Thanks very much. Our second question tonight. Thank you to

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Peter for our first question. Next question is from Leanne Dunlop who

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is an unemployed journalist from ball money. How can Northern

:21:34.:21:39.

Ireland people be better placed to cope with the worsening eurozone

:21:39.:21:45.

CrySys? David McWilliams? account people in Northern Ireland

:21:45.:21:49.

be better placed? Because you have sterling. You are isolated in terms

:21:49.:21:54.

of at least the exchange rate. What is happening in the euro zone is

:21:54.:21:58.

that the euro economy has three major problems. It has too much

:21:58.:22:02.

debt. It hasn't enough growth. It doesn't have any political

:22:02.:22:07.

leadership. Now, you put those three together, no political

:22:07.:22:11.

leadership, Germany pulling one way, France, Italy and Spain possibly

:22:11.:22:16.

pulling the other way. You have too much debt, inherited from the last

:22:16.:22:21.

ten years. You also have no growth in the economies. So, in economics,

:22:21.:22:25.

the most important thing to do in a CrySys is really define your

:22:25.:22:29.

reality. Not as you would like it to be, but as it actually is. It

:22:29.:22:34.

strikes me that what you have is Germany wants to keep the euro in

:22:34.:22:39.

place, because Germany does very well out of it. Germany trades with

:22:39.:22:44.

the eurozone. Huge, huge trader and it sells. It also, because it's in

:22:44.:22:47.

the eurozone, gets a subsidy. If its currency was the Deutschmark,

:22:47.:22:52.

it is a used to be, it would be much, much stronger than it is. So,

:22:52.:22:56.

for those two reasons, also now, in the CrySys, money is flowing out of

:22:56.:23:01.

Ireland, flowing out of Spain, out of Italy into Germany. Germans are

:23:01.:23:05.

getting low interest rates. It's like, it is interesting you are

:23:05.:23:08.

talking about neighbourhoods. It's like a house-proud neighbour in a

:23:09.:23:12.

bad neighbourhood. The Germans are the house-proud neighbour. They

:23:12.:23:16.

have a lovely lawn. They wash their cars all the time. They fix the

:23:16.:23:22.

gates. All around increasingly they are surrounded by delinquents. Even

:23:22.:23:26.

the French are threatening to go rogue. The Germans are getting

:23:26.:23:31.

worried. The question for the rest of us Europeans is what price the

:23:31.:23:34.

Germans put on cleaning up the neighbourhood. I believe, as

:23:34.:23:39.

somebody who watches this on a daily basis, that Germany is

:23:39.:23:44.

prepared to pay a larger price than it's letting on, which is obvious.

:23:44.:23:48.

The rest of Europe just hasn't quite figured out the exstopbt

:23:48.:23:53.

which the Germans are prepared to pay. -- extent to which the Germans

:23:53.:23:58.

are prepared to pay. That is the big bargain over the next two or

:23:58.:24:01.

three months. If Greece chooses to leave the euro the CrySys gets

:24:01.:24:07.

worse. In terms of Northern Ireland, what you have got is, to an extent,

:24:07.:24:11.

you have the protection of being with sterling. Sterling has proved

:24:11.:24:15.

itself to be, I think many people are surprised by this, reasonably

:24:15.:24:20.

strong and stable in the face of what has been a pretty catastrophic

:24:20.:24:25.

economic back drop over the last year. OK. Interesting and very

:24:25.:24:29.

colourful analogy that you use there as far as the Germans are

:24:29.:24:32.

concerned. You wrote a piece for the Financial Times today. I want

:24:33.:24:36.

to hear from Sammy. Are you saying we are in a stronger position than

:24:36.:24:40.

the Republic of Ireland, but we are maybe a little bit more vulnerable

:24:40.:24:44.

that other parts of the UK? I think because of the trade with the South

:24:44.:24:49.

is quite significant here. Also the general facing of industrial policy

:24:49.:24:54.

is broadly the same, in terms of attracting inward investment etc. A,

:24:54.:24:58.

we have the trade with the South, which most people see as

:24:59.:25:03.

Sainsbury's in Newry. It's greater than that. You're not half as

:25:03.:25:09.

exposed. You don't have a land boarder. You don't have a land

:25:09.:25:13.

boarder, the rest doesn't have the euro zone. If Gordon Brown did

:25:13.:25:17.

anything positive, it was those five tests he put in a couple of

:25:17.:25:20.

years ago. I think the people in the UK are much better off outside

:25:20.:25:24.

the euro than they would of been otherwise. Very interesting to hear

:25:24.:25:32.

that. David, thank you very much. Do you share his analysis and the

:25:32.:25:35.

position where Northern Ireland is as far as this CrySys is concerned?

:25:35.:25:41.

It's significant that many of those people who were berating us for not

:25:41.:25:47.

joining the euro are quiet on the issue. It was going to be an

:25:47.:25:50.

economic disaster. David has said Germany is prepared to pay a price

:25:50.:25:55.

to clean up the neighbourhood. But, the United Kingdom is being drawn

:25:55.:25:58.

into that clean-up operation as well. That's having an impact on

:25:58.:26:04.

our economy. It's estimated so far, through helping the euro stability

:26:04.:26:10.

and also through the IMF, we have put �67 billion into supporting

:26:10.:26:13.

euro countries. That's money which is being drained from spending in

:26:13.:26:18.

our own economy. I think the first thing I would like to see is the

:26:18.:26:22.

Government, I see it in the Queen's Speech, they have taken the first

:26:22.:26:25.

steps saying, we are no longer going to be responsible for a mess

:26:25.:26:30.

we aren't part of. Because of the existing situation in Europe,

:26:30.:26:34.

European markets are not going to grow for a long time. One of the

:26:34.:26:37.

things, which I think increasingly Northern Ireland firms must do, is

:26:37.:26:41.

look at the growing markets. That is what Arlene Foster is doing,

:26:41.:26:46.

India, China, Brazil, Africa some of those areas were growth is 8%,

:26:47.:26:53.

9%. That is where the markets were. Would you like to see the euro

:26:53.:27:03.
:27:03.:27:07.

The one thing however, the longer we keep trying to sustain an

:27:07.:27:12.

unsustainable position, and money being lent to sustain that position,

:27:12.:27:20.

we will respect growth in our own economy. -- restrict growth. And

:27:20.:27:24.

then being able to restore competitiveness and get wet on the

:27:24.:27:30.

Strait jacket that being part of the euro demands, like Greece.

:27:30.:27:35.

agree, particularly with the last point. The weaker economies in

:27:35.:27:41.

Europe are never going to prosper within the eurozone because it is

:27:41.:27:48.

so arranged against all their interests. They joined, they had

:27:48.:27:52.

different challenges and their economy, they had to subject their

:27:52.:27:57.

entire economy to the central control of the European Central

:27:57.:28:03.

Bank, they set their interest rates, they decided what they could borrow,

:28:03.:28:08.

then they decided you could not borrow up above 3%. This said a

:28:08.:28:14.

whole culture of borrowing, which the smaller countries borrowed, and

:28:14.:28:19.

they are left in the position to pick up the pieces. They need to

:28:19.:28:24.

have their own currencies again. They need to control their own

:28:24.:28:31.

money supply, and maybe just begin to rebuild their economies. But

:28:31.:28:37.

mile my, how thankful we should be, in the United Kingdom, but we never

:28:37.:28:47.
:28:47.:28:47.

entered the folly of the eurozone! APPLAUSE. The key difficulty for

:28:47.:28:52.

most people watching is the pace of change and uncertainty. We seemed

:28:52.:28:56.

to be lurching from crisis to crisis, and it is very difficult to

:28:56.:29:01.

know what will happen. The tectonic plates are shifting, and we do not

:29:01.:29:05.

know what direction they are shifting. If we go back to the

:29:05.:29:09.

example of Germany, it suits them to have a number of weaker

:29:09.:29:12.

economies. They are happy to throw a few crumbs and the weaker

:29:12.:29:18.

economies and keep the men. The bigger issue is, we have seen a

:29:18.:29:25.

change of regime, in France, and we are all waiting on a political

:29:25.:29:31.

election in Germany. Whatever Germany rejects austerity and goes

:29:31.:29:35.

for a socialist government? Is the whole euro project back on? It was

:29:35.:29:41.

not about the euro, it was about fiscal and monetary union. The

:29:41.:29:47.

first thing they would say Thailand is, you have to adjust your

:29:47.:29:55.

corporation tax. -- say to Ireland. Where are we, as far as Northern

:29:55.:29:58.

Ireland is concerned? Would you like to see the Republic out of the

:29:58.:30:04.

euro? I do not think that is what the referendum is about. It is

:30:04.:30:14.
:30:14.:30:14.

about sovereignty. The strongest economy... We are also in the EU.

:30:14.:30:21.

You cannot think we are immune. We are not. The referendum, taking

:30:21.:30:28.

place on Thursday, is giving more sovereignty to it. But also to

:30:28.:30:33.

Germany. Yes, we are against it. I do not know if we were when that

:30:33.:30:41.

referendum, but they are looking at -- looking something like 6 billion

:30:41.:30:51.
:30:51.:30:53.

out of the economy. Austerity could mean years on years. Let us go back

:30:53.:31:00.

to Leeanne. Your thoughts on what we have heard so far? From my point

:31:00.:31:07.

of view, an average everyday persona would do well to increase

:31:07.:31:13.

their ties. Anybody else want to make a quick comment on this? Happy

:31:13.:31:19.

to take your thoughts or not as the case may be. Gentlemen, in the

:31:19.:31:28.

second row. I am asking Mr Kelly, would you still go into the urine

:31:29.:31:38.
:31:39.:31:47.

now? -- into the euro? That is a different question. Balaam bustard

:31:47.:31:57.
:31:57.:31:57.

the money. So, what faith is there for an economist now? We have

:31:57.:32:05.

always argued for a relationship with Europe but Coventry. You are a

:32:05.:32:11.

smaller country, it is more important. Let us move on to our

:32:11.:32:18.

third question tonight.,. Should there be a bank holiday thought the

:32:18.:32:28.
:32:28.:32:31.

Easter rising? LAUGHTER. Has it been raised around the Executive

:32:31.:32:40.

table at Stormont? It may well have been. But yes, of course. We are

:32:40.:32:47.

talking about partnership. There art Republicans who have a view of

:32:47.:32:51.

things that that should be respected in the same way as issues

:32:51.:33:00.

which affect Unionists. Absolutely not. There is no comparison between

:33:00.:33:04.

the Diamond Jubilee of our sovereign in the United Kingdom and

:33:04.:33:10.

some foreign, grubby field rebellion 100 years ago. There is

:33:10.:33:18.

nothing to celebrate about that, other than the feeling. If they

:33:18.:33:23.

want a celebrated, celebrating. Celebrate it in the Republic of

:33:23.:33:27.

Ireland, not Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland we do have

:33:27.:33:32.

something we should be celebrating - the centenary of the Ulster

:33:32.:33:37.

Covenant, which was part of the building blocks of Northern Ireland.

:33:37.:33:41.

When it was the 50th anniversary, there was a public holiday in

:33:41.:33:46.

Northern Ireland to market, but under Sinn Fein rule, there will be

:33:46.:33:51.

no public holiday to mark the centenary. But Nadal, there will be

:33:52.:34:01.
:34:02.:34:02.

moves to get a public holiday to celebrate the 1916 rising. I repute

:34:02.:34:12.

D8 the comparison. You cannot a me everything you agree with should be

:34:12.:34:21.

celebrating! Or that is not what I am saying. We celebrate the Diamond

:34:21.:34:26.

Jubilee of our sovereign. If there is another country which thinks

:34:26.:34:30.

there is an important event in our history, then they can celebrated

:34:30.:34:37.

for as long and in whatever manner they choose. I think Jim's answer

:34:37.:34:41.

an attitude highlights why we need to think very carefully about the

:34:41.:34:44.

very important commemorations coming up over the next number of

:34:44.:34:48.

years and how we would deal with them. And how we deal with them in

:34:48.:34:55.

a way which respects diversity and different communities. To refer to

:34:55.:35:00.

something as rubbery and derogatory language, does not move fast

:35:00.:35:10.
:35:10.:35:11.

forward one iota. APPLAUSE. We do have to make a distinction between

:35:11.:35:15.

things which pertain to the United Kingdom and events which may be

:35:15.:35:19.

important to Republicans, but which pertain to another country. If we

:35:19.:35:24.

will have days in which we set aside, for celebration, then they

:35:24.:35:31.

should be pertinent to our own country. The Americans celebrate

:35:31.:35:37.

fourth July. We do not expected to be a public holiday here. The same

:35:37.:35:42.

as Bastille Day in France, an important day for the French. The

:35:42.:35:52.
:35:52.:35:53.

Queen's Jubilee is important in the UK. The 1916 rising is something

:35:53.:35:58.

which is pertinent to the history of another sovereign country, which

:35:58.:36:06.

happens to Sir the same island as we do. Indeed, if people in

:36:06.:36:09.

Northern Ireland field and affiliation, I am sure they can

:36:09.:36:13.

think of appropriate ways in which that can be done. I personally

:36:13.:36:17.

would not take the view they should not have the right to celebrate,

:36:17.:36:20.

but I do not think it should be given the same status as something

:36:20.:36:27.

which is naturally important to the UK. How significant is it that

:36:27.:36:37.
:36:37.:36:38.

Martin McGuinness will consider a proposal to market give it? People

:36:38.:36:43.

ask, is there no vision in Northern Ireland? Peter Robinson has sought

:36:43.:36:48.

ways to reach out to be nationalist and republican community to show we

:36:48.:36:53.

want to work our way forward, and has taken steps to do that. I hope

:36:53.:37:03.
:37:03.:37:03.

that Martin McGuinness will reciprocate the steps. Jim, you

:37:03.:37:13.
:37:13.:37:32.

already seller but something that APPLAUSE. If you want to get into

:37:32.:37:37.

the politics of insults and slurs, it does not bring you forward at

:37:37.:37:47.
:37:47.:37:50.

all. The battle of the Boyne was of European significance. It was

:37:50.:37:54.

particularly of significance to the formation and constitutional

:37:54.:37:59.

formation of this United Kingdom, because at the same time, the bill

:37:59.:38:09.

of Rights was made. But you take his broader point but it is more

:38:09.:38:14.

complicated than you suggested. There is nothing for me to

:38:14.:38:19.

celebrate in a 1916 rising in another place. With the respect, it

:38:19.:38:24.

is not about you celebrating. It is about allowing other people to

:38:24.:38:32.

celebrate. That is deep one! If you are saying to me that a rebellion

:38:32.:38:39.

by Irish rebels, akin to the murderous activities of the IRA,

:38:39.:38:46.

should be celebrated in Northern Ireland, then I'm sorry. I do not

:38:46.:38:51.

agree. This is not about you! This is about the future everyone.

:38:51.:39:01.

us go back to collar. I agree with what jury was saying. On the same

:39:01.:39:10.

basis at the Jubilee? Yes. I am from Northern Ireland, but I hold

:39:10.:39:18.

an Irish passport. I call myself a proud Irish Republican. I do not

:39:18.:39:23.

care whether it you support the butler Boyne or not, but I am an

:39:23.:39:29.

Irish republican. I am proud of the Easter rebellion. I am not pursuing

:39:29.:39:33.

anything on you. I warned not to celebrate the Queen's Jubilee

:39:33.:39:39.

because I do not recognise her. you want to dawn in the

:39:39.:39:44.

celebrations, you can go to Dublin to do that. Let me tell you, north,

:39:44.:39:51.

east, south or west, I have an Irish passport. Would you support

:39:51.:39:57.

it on the same basis as the Diamond Jubilee? Certainly. Quick comment

:39:57.:40:01.

from the gentleman in the back road. Just because Jim it does not

:40:01.:40:06.

appreciate what happened in 1916, does he believe any Republican does

:40:06.:40:11.

not have the right to celebrate anything he believes in? I think

:40:11.:40:17.

Jim has answered that already. Thank you for raising the question.

:40:17.:40:23.

Next question from David Nickson, a community volunteer. With the power

:40:23.:40:33.
:40:33.:40:40.

and agree about action? I think there is a very sorry history of

:40:40.:40:45.

foreign intervention. We can all lament the dreadful situation in

:40:45.:40:55.
:40:55.:40:56.

Syria, the huge humanitarian disaster that it is. But when

:40:56.:41:00.

military intervention has been done in the past, getting in has been

:41:00.:41:05.

easy. Sorting out has been difficult. Getting a has been even

:41:05.:41:15.
:41:15.:41:15.

more difficult. We need sobriety with this matter. The international

:41:15.:41:22.

community need to maximise all the pressure it can on the Syrian

:41:22.:41:31.

regime and, hopefully, in due course, that might bring delivery.

:41:31.:41:36.

But if anyone intervenes, it has to be international, not just in

:41:36.:41:42.

intervention by components. We have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan the

:41:42.:41:49.

country's left to carry the can. How does the situation in Syria

:41:49.:41:58.

You could construct an argument for Libya and Syria. I'm cautioning it

:41:59.:42:03.

is easier to get in, harder to get out. We want to do what we can. We

:42:03.:42:08.

need to be careful about launching in without too much thought. Sammy?

:42:08.:42:14.

I fear that the example that you gave, Mark, of what happened in

:42:14.:42:18.

Libya may well act as a catalyst for intervention in Syria. I think

:42:18.:42:23.

we were lucky we got out of Libya as easily as what we did get out of

:42:23.:42:27.

that situation. We could of been dragged into something much more

:42:27.:42:32.

protracted, etc. We have to get to the point - when we see the

:42:32.:42:37.

shocking pictures that there have been about bodies strewn across the

:42:37.:42:42.

street and the atrocities, etc, of course, naturally, people say we

:42:42.:42:45.

shouldn't allow this to happen. We have to be careful that, as a

:42:45.:42:49.

country, we do not have the resources to become the conscience

:42:49.:42:57.

of the world and the policeman of the world. To intervene in

:42:57.:43:02.

situations which, you know we put our own citizens at danger in and

:43:02.:43:06.

sometimes we really don't have a very clear way of getting out. We

:43:06.:43:11.

don't know what the outcome is going to be. The Government has

:43:11.:43:16.

taken the right attitude wesm have put diplomatic pressure. Diplomatic

:43:16.:43:20.

expulsion, do they have any effect? I think they will have an effect. I

:43:20.:43:25.

think by doing that we also will help to consolidate, perhaps, more

:43:25.:43:29.

international action in Syria, but I think we have to be extremely

:43:29.:43:34.

careful. I would be the same as Jim, I would urge caution because the

:43:34.:43:38.

gung ho attitude that some political leaders had in the United

:43:38.:43:42.

Kingdom, were they felt they had to have a good war to show they were a

:43:42.:43:49.

good political leader and left many broken lives behind them. We are in

:43:49.:43:53.

danger of consensus. I agree with the last two speakers. I think we

:43:53.:43:56.

have to be very careful in any intervention. All the evidence is

:43:56.:44:01.

there that it doesn't work. I do think that diplomatic pressure is

:44:01.:44:06.

very, very important. It has worked in the past. It should continue to

:44:06.:44:14.

be put on. If there is truly, the true judgment, I think the Speaker

:44:14.:44:18.

said, "if needs be", how do you work out what that is? The true

:44:18.:44:23.

reading of what is happening in any country is the popular uprising is

:44:23.:44:28.

the fact that the people themselves turn against their government in a

:44:28.:44:32.

democratic way and replace them. That has also happened. I don't

:44:32.:44:37.

think can jump in front of the people in any of these cases.

:44:37.:44:40.

Deirdre Heenan j gentleman I would agree with what has been said. The

:44:41.:44:44.

UK has had their fingers burnt. We know the difficulties of jumping in.

:44:44.:44:48.

You get in and you can't get out. We were lucky to get out. This time,

:44:48.:44:52.

what we have to do is say, what is available to us other than saying

:44:52.:44:56.

it's up to us to come in as the white knight on the charger. We

:44:57.:45:00.

have to change public opinions. I think we have to raise awareness.

:45:00.:45:04.

What surprises me is how many people are unaware of what's going

:45:04.:45:08.

on in Syria. It isn't making the front pages of the newspapers. It

:45:08.:45:13.

has over the last few days? Until that. The tipping point was the

:45:13.:45:18.

atrocities at the weekend because it avoided children. There were

:45:18.:45:22.

atrocities on a daily basis and people didn't want to talk about it.

:45:22.:45:26.

This is a tipping point and changing our attitudes and say we

:45:26.:45:34.

need to ensure we we put as much diplomatic pressure. We will see

:45:34.:45:39.

this because Russia is moving away. Libya's many ally was Silvio

:45:39.:45:43.

Berlusconi. Other than it was an isolated country with trade links

:45:43.:45:48.

to Europe. Syria sits in the middle of an alliance of Iran, Russia and

:45:48.:45:54.

China. All of which stand behind, whether we like it or not, the

:45:54.:45:57.

Syrian regime. Against that background is the American fear

:45:57.:46:02.

that Iran, through Iraq, and into the Shia Muslims in Syria and into

:46:02.:46:08.

Lebanon are created an arc of Shia Muslims. It's really complicated.

:46:08.:46:14.

The great tragedy of Syria is that Syria is only a pawn in a huge game

:46:14.:46:19.

were China wants oil, were Russia wants influence and were Iran wants

:46:19.:46:24.

domination. Against that background I think it is a totally different

:46:24.:46:30.

case, not only to Libya, but to possibly also to Iraq earlier on.

:46:30.:46:36.

OK. Thank you very much David. David Nixon who asked the question.

:46:36.:46:40.

My opinion is, if Britain or any other nation in the world could

:46:40.:46:44.

help, they should because all life should be valued. There is innocent

:46:44.:46:48.

people dying in the streets now as we're speaking. You think more

:46:48.:46:56.

needs to be done you are not satisfied with diplomatic expulsion.

:46:56.:47:00.

Expulsion people into fancy hotels who are not leaving the country

:47:00.:47:05.

they are being expelled from isn't going to do any good. What about

:47:05.:47:13.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Well, I agree with military action them. It

:47:13.:47:16.

has helped people out and built towns and cities. I would do the

:47:16.:47:24.

same thing again. Our next question from Orla, a student in Carrickmor.

:47:24.:47:29.

I would like to ask, what is going to happen to the lost generation?

:47:29.:47:36.

OK, the lost generation. Which we have talked about a lot. What do

:47:36.:47:40.

you think the lost generation is and what can be done for people who

:47:40.:47:43.

are coming out of school without qualifications in many instances,

:47:43.:47:47.

finding it very hard to get into the workplace? Even people with

:47:47.:47:50.

qualifications seriously struggling at the moment? Seriously struggling.

:47:51.:47:55.

What we are find something that young people are being

:47:55.:47:58.

disproportionately affected by decisions made by adults that they

:47:58.:48:03.

had no part of. They are in the difficult position of having gained

:48:03.:48:05.

qualifications and finding there is nowhere for them. We are working

:48:05.:48:09.

hard with a number of schemes to address that. Within the University

:48:09.:48:13.

of Ulster we place great value on student placements. Placements

:48:13.:48:17.

within the workplace. So that the students can get an idea of what

:48:17.:48:21.

work is like. What the skills are like. They can decide what is for

:48:21.:48:25.

them. The employers know what the students have to offer and we

:48:25.:48:31.

describe our students in many ways as, "oven ready", they have valued

:48:31.:48:35.

experienced within the workplace. We also have to increase the number

:48:35.:48:39.

of apprenticeships and ensure that the employers are well bought into

:48:39.:48:41.

the apprenticeship schemes because this is about ensuring that the

:48:41.:48:46.

skills that we have in our workforce are matched to what our

:48:46.:48:48.

employers need. It is a disgrace that, yes, of course, that people

:48:48.:48:52.

are coming out, they are coming out with student loans and debts and

:48:52.:48:57.

they can't find jobs. There are many ways that our local Assembly

:48:57.:49:03.

can try to address some of these issues by promoting schemes such as

:49:03.:49:07.

the Halo Scheme, such as schemes that the Northern Ireland Science

:49:07.:49:10.

Park to ensure that the young people have the skills which are

:49:10.:49:14.

appropriate for the labour market. Is the Executive doing enough?

:49:14.:49:18.

Couldn't it do more to help young people struggling at the moment?

:49:18.:49:22.

People will always want you to do more. First of all, youth

:49:23.:49:26.

unemployment in Northern Ireland is lower than the UK average. Youth

:49:26.:49:29.

unemployment has fallen over the last year while it has gone

:49:29.:49:33.

newspaper other parts of the United Kingdom. That is as a result of

:49:33.:49:36.

some of the interventions that Deirdre Heenan has talked about.

:49:36.:49:40.

When it comes to public procurement there is a require am on anyone who

:49:40.:49:45.

win as tender to take on apresent sis and to give people the

:49:45.:49:49.

opportunities to get started and get skills. The amount of money we

:49:49.:49:54.

have put into schemes to help with youth unemployment has increased.

:49:54.:50:03.

Indeed, Stephen Farry is drawing up a youth employment strategy which

:50:03.:50:06.

will come to the Assembly soon. lot of young people are leaving

:50:06.:50:09.

Northern Ireland to find work elsewhere? There are. Equally, we

:50:09.:50:15.

have done a number of things. I'm outlined some of them, which is

:50:15.:50:19.

alleviating the problem here in Northern Ireland. We have tried to

:50:19.:50:22.

ensure that students leave university in Northern Ireland with

:50:22.:50:26.

less student debt because we have held down student fees. Making

:50:26.:50:31.

training at that level more attractive to them. It's a problem

:50:31.:50:35.

here and down South? A problem all over the world. If you look at

:50:35.:50:39.

particularly the United States the companies that create most jobs in

:50:39.:50:44.

the United States are companies that employ between five and ten

:50:44.:50:48.

people. This is were jobs are being created. Big companies are

:50:48.:50:51.

destroying jobs around the world. Small companies are were it's at.

:50:51.:50:54.

The companies that created most jobs are companies between one and

:50:54.:50:59.

two years old. It's young, small companies. So that is creating jobs.

:50:59.:51:02.

That is what is absorbing in particularly unemployed younger

:51:02.:51:09.

people. The question you have to do, how do you make a situation were

:51:09.:51:12.

you incentivise small companies to go into business. Here in the North,

:51:12.:51:17.

or in the South. The South has used the tax system effect nifl a

:51:17.:51:22.

variety of ways. For example, maybe Sammy could think about the �60

:51:22.:51:25.

million you have to spend in your back pocket. You might think of

:51:25.:51:30.

maybe putting together something like a tax holiday for companies

:51:30.:51:35.

that are setup in order to employ three or four people for four or

:51:35.:51:39.

five years. You create the incentive to go into business

:51:39.:51:42.

because something like this can work extraordinarily well in small

:51:42.:51:45.

countries. The interesting thing about small countries is

:51:45.:51:49.

individuals matter enormously. People who step up to the plate

:51:49.:51:54.

matter enormously. If you give incentive. There is a company in

:51:54.:52:04.

Newry called first Derivities. If they can do it in Newry, they can

:52:04.:52:12.

do it better in there than in New York.

:52:13.:52:16.

APPLAUSE Briefly, if you would? Two quick

:52:16.:52:20.

points. There is no easy answer. I think we all know. That there are

:52:20.:52:26.

schemes like Steps to Work, to help people who are really quite

:52:26.:52:32.

unskilled. I think the real question is, are the schemes

:52:32.:52:40.

matching the skills to the jobs? I think that's were the disparity is.

:52:40.:52:43.

Thra are maybe soms jobs which aren't being matched to the skills.

:52:43.:52:48.

The second thing, is picking up on the last point about small being

:52:48.:52:54.

beautiful. For too long in Northern Ireland I think, yes, FDIs are

:52:54.:52:58.

important, we pursued the glamour side of things with foreign direct

:52:58.:53:03.

investment and ignored too much of our small industry were much of our

:53:03.:53:07.

employment lies. Very quickly, if you would? An interesting point

:53:07.:53:12.

that David makes and Sammy will remember this. There is a finance

:53:12.:53:18.

project within Europe which allows up to �20,000 as a grant to young

:53:18.:53:24.

people. The problem is the partnership. You have to get the

:53:24.:53:27.

financial institutions to partner people in small and medium

:53:28.:53:31.

enterprises. 90% of all business is small or medium enterprise. It's a

:53:31.:53:35.

reflection of what you are saying about the outside world. Thank you

:53:35.:53:41.

very much. Orla, a final comment. Are you satisfied? There should be

:53:41.:53:46.

a bigger emphasis on bringing schemes with the likes of coming

:53:46.:53:48.

out with education and qualifications should be getting

:53:48.:53:54.

jobs at the end of it. You think it's a big problem? Yeah. One last

:53:54.:54:04.
:54:04.:54:04.

question, if we are quick. Has the Eurovision Song Contest become too

:54:04.:54:09.

political for the UK and Ireland to win again? That's the serious

:54:09.:54:19.
:54:19.:54:20.

question of the night. What happened to Jed ward and enge ange

:54:20.:54:24.

elBert. It was the flat hair that got them. It a fair question after

:54:24.:54:30.

watching. Maybe it's down to the talent of the offerings that we

:54:30.:54:40.
:54:40.:54:46.

present. They said they were going to win. They came 18th. The British

:54:46.:54:52.

entry came 4 1st. I wasn't watching. Not very good. Has it become

:54:52.:54:56.

political, seriously? It seems to me, Ireland won it six times in a

:54:56.:55:00.

row, I think it came to the point were countries are trying to avoid

:55:00.:55:05.

hosting it. It has passed its sell- by-date. I don't know if it's

:55:05.:55:08.

talent. I didn't watch it, I didn't watch it last year or the year

:55:08.:55:12.

before. I have no great interest. I don't think it's political, it's

:55:12.:55:17.

lost its edge anyway. Is it because people don't like the UK, is that

:55:17.:55:23.

why they are not voting? I wouldn't say that. I think... What would you

:55:23.:55:28.

say? I don't know whether it's become too political. It's become

:55:28.:55:33.

too farcical to even want to win. It's something which I think is

:55:33.:55:41.

well past its sell-by-date. Were you not charmed by the Russian

:55:41.:55:45.

grannies? To enthralled I didn't watch them. I'm told they were the

:55:45.:55:50.

only act worth watching. It has really gone beyond a serious

:55:50.:55:57.

competition. The voting within it is political. That undermines it

:55:57.:56:01.

further. Sammy? I couldn't tell you. I didn't know it was on until

:56:01.:56:05.

tonight when I saw it in the briefing. Whether it's political or

:56:05.:56:12.

not. Europe can make everything political, even songs. You didn't

:56:12.:56:16.

watch Jedward? I didn't know it was on. On Saturday with the sun

:56:16.:56:21.

shining I spent it out in the garden. What I want to know, did

:56:21.:56:27.

you watch it when it was all about Abba and the Brotherhood of Man.

:56:27.:56:34.

I quite like Abba. I still liked Abba. It was a Swedish band, woman

:56:34.:56:40.

that won this time roun. Not Abba. I thought in this Executive he

:56:40.:56:47.

liked all kinds of everything. it's money I like! Were you

:56:47.:56:52.

watching? I didn't see. It I was out at the Mayor's Ball. That is a

:56:52.:57:01.

different story! I think it's lost its shine. It's not a song

:57:01.:57:04.

competition any more. It's a dressing competition. There was a

:57:04.:57:11.

time when people felt they wanted to compete to win now it's

:57:11.:57:21.
:57:21.:57:22.

something that people have parties in their house to watch. Losing to

:57:22.:57:26.

Ulster would of been tragic. Some people were breathing a shy of

:57:26.:57:34.

relief that Jedward didn't get beyond 18th. Thank you to our pan

:57:34.:57:39.

Elf guests and our student audience. Thank you to you at home for

:57:39.:57:45.

All the week's big talking points, as a studio audience puts questions to Finance Minister Sammy Wilson, North Belfast MLA Gerry Kelly, TUV Leader Jim Allister, economist David McWilliams and academic and commentator Deirdre Heenan. Presented by Mark Carruthers.


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