18/06/2013 Spotlight

of the world have been on Northern Ireland with eight leaders soaking

up the sun in Fermanagh and grappling with global oblongs. The

G8 summit will feature the ceiling as the audience puts questions to

the panel, among politicians who make more local decisions. Tonight -

David McWilliams, the economist and author. Eamon McCann, who was on the

protest line in Fermanagh. Colin Eastwood, the SDLP MLA. Arlene

Foster, the enterprise minister and DUP MLA. She greeted the Obamas when

know what you think about the big talking points of the day. Text us

twitter. The details are on the from Ryan, a management consultant

from Castlederg. Was the G8 beneficial or just a very expensive

private party? Oh, yes. The G8 Summit! The home county of Arlene

Foster. Was it a success? It was not a private party. The eyes of the

world were very much on a part of the world I am proud of and I think

we really have played our part and we are very serious about these

discussions and we played host to those leaders and we did very well.

We had an opportunity to show the world that Northern Ireland has a

completely different narrative than in the past, we are positive, open,

we want to do business with the world, we got that message across.

�50 million postcard? Not at all. We shall have a very nice announcement

tomorrow in relation to new jobs and the Japanese Prime Minister with the

source -- was with us. Having said that, this is a great advertising

and for Northern Ireland to do business in and for tourism, we

could not have paid for those shots. They almost looked

computer-generated, they looked so well! Eamon McCann, whatever the

reality and the hard talking, it has been good news for Fermanagh?

Fermanagh looked very well what it always does. Not when it is raining!

Sometimes even then. I came down yesterday to Enniskillen on a bus

from Derry and one thing that struck me was quite a lot of people said

they had never been in Fermanagh before and people from Dublin, he

said he had never been there before. Before we think about other things,

happy days if it does good for tourism. I don't think... Another

thing I noticed is that in Enniskillen, the pubs were empty and

the cafes and the local store had dropped because they said people

from across the border were nervous because of all of the hype. And the

possible video of violence. If some people did make a few extra bob,

terrific. But if you look at the Presidents, Toronto, Gleneagles in

Scotland, none of the G8 meetings in those places left behind any great

legacy in terms of inward investment. There is no evidential

basis for believing that. Basil McCrea? You can applaud him if you

like! I thought it was fantastic. It makes you pride to beat Northern

Irish. -- pride. Those pictures of Fermanagh and Belfast, but put us on

the map again and we had an unfortunate winter and this has

turned it all the way around and when you look at these benefits for

the future, people know who we are and Arlene Foster will be announcing

jobs and this is all to the good and you could not buy the type of

goodwill we have got. The G8 Summit was incidental? They do important

work and we shall talk about that but what is the benefit to us? I

entertained eight motorcyclists from Southampton and they had been on

their bikes to give some escort and they looked around and they said, it

is beautiful, here. And what we should be proud about is they said

they could not get over how friendly the people here are. We are worth

talking about and people are talking. Lots of you will have

something to say! Opera gives applause. -- applause. That is great

and Orrin Foster talked about jobs. But as you can see, eight men from

around the world, from great power. -- Arlene Foster. The thing is, all

you can see is beset stage for the medium and for the country it goes

on to. You don't see anybody in the economy or in society turning around

and being involved because they are away from society, they are put on a

pedestal and if leaders want to lead, and really show our country,

because it told us any to bring down walls, but they do. Instead of being

a here, they need to come down to this level. It was a great event for

Northern Ireland and shows just how far we have come in 15 years. Lots

of maturity on behalf of David Cameron and for the Executive. It

was just a great event. I agree. It has been fantastic that the Prime

Minister decided to host this in Fermanagh, fantastic, but it must be

disappointing for the politicians around the table that they will

never be able to take part in this because they belong to parochial

parties and it must be the only country that has hosted the G8

Summit, where nobody in that country can actually ever aspire to be a

part of that. Are you depressed about that? I have no ambitions to

be the British Prime Minister. None at all! Ask the Unionist members!

Go-ahead. There are two sides to this, it cannot be a bad thing to

have the world looking at us and these good pictures being beamed

around the world. We have had negative pictures around the world

and this is a good thing, and we can talk about whether this will be good

for the rest of the world in terms of the outcomes and they hope it

will be. David? As a slight outsider? It seems to be that it is

so obvious that this can only be good for Fermanagh and for Ireland.

In general, the whole country. These events, if you look at the history

of these events, they don't lead to much actual change in economic

policy. Lots of talking and lots of full to opportunities and it is not

really a case that we shall see some huge change in the way the world is

governed by these seven men and one woman. That said, it has to be good

for Northern Ireland to have Fermanagh looking beautiful, the

whole event executed professionally and also, a very benign coverage in

the papers and the media that really matters in terms of influencing

public opinion. Financial, if you look at the financial Times,

Northern Ireland today. That rarely happens. And that helps. I am not

saying this will change the world, but I think that all of these

statements, they tend to change the brand of Northern Ireland and the

brand is what it will tend to remember from the outside.

Internally, it must have done a power of good for people to see

these men coming here. And I am sure that we shall discuss the

nitty-gritty as we go along but as a get-together, I cannot see anything

but advantages. The gentleman over their... People are supposed to be

represented as of the most important economies and it is out of date, we

should have had representatives from China and India and Brazil. We have

G20 later in the year. That is a slightly different thing. The young

man. It is great to look at the impact this will have for Northern

Ireland but we cannot escape the impact it will have globally, which

I think will be very little. It is great to look at these people coming

together, very little has happened in the last G8 Summit and this will

be no different. Very sceptical but this is the truth. The front row...

The G8 has done one purpose, apart from economics, that is possibly

persuading government put in to stop arming Syria. -- President Putin.

I. You. They have not bleed on anything to change what the men and

women in Northern Ireland will have. We have serious issues in terms of

unemployment and poverty and global issues. Global issues around

trafficking and issues around people not having enough to eat. They had a

real opportunity to make some impact on that but instead, they rushed out

the same old around tax, transparency, around trade.

Everything that means a lot to the rich and the powerful and nothing

whatsoever for those people living line, even though there weren't very

many there, protest is an important part of democratic society? It is. I

don't think - I have heard lots of people saying today - there were few

people there, it must have been disappointing. Very few people what

the PSNI were saying. We involved in recognising it reckoned there would

be 1,000 to 2,000. Most of the estimates were 1500. We knew nobody

would come from Belfast because it was decided we would have the march

on Saturday and the musical event. There was no mobilisation across the

water. Matt Baggott talked about 5,000 people coming from over the

water. There were spaces on the Ferris and planes. It wasn't

intelligence led, it was stupidity. I am glad we were there. What we

were trying to do was to be positive. To say there are

alternatives to austerity. There are alternatives to importing arms into

Syria and the rest of the Middle East. Not just Putin to Assad, we

see western powers lining up talking about which factions and opposition

they will arm. We are going to talk specifically, we are specifically

going to talk about Syria. I will stop you there. The gentleman in the

checked shirt? We have to look at the significance of the G8 coming to

Northern Ireland as a vote of confidence in the British government

who in previous years the only thing they would have sent here were extra

troops due to the violence. That is an important point. We shouldn't

forget the significance of this event. To David's point about it

doing nothing only good. There is an element of civic proud to try to get

people of Northern Ireland proud of this place and where they lived and

all of that. I really do think - can I say this to Eamonn ace his

colleague I protect the right of Eamonn to protest at an event like

that. We live in a democratic society. That is the right thing to

be able to do. I'm so delighted that it was peaceful. I do also say,

Eamonn, I don't think it was stupid to be prepared. You do need to

prepare in these instances. A lot of the police officers who came over in

mutual aid will have been saying to us, they have found Northern Ireland

to be a beautiful place they will come back as tourists. It is a

benefit. I'm not stretching it now. Quickly. Were you sitting there the

whole two-days thinking, "I wish I was Angela Merkel?" ? No I'm glad to

be Arlene Foster and represent such a beautiful part of this united

kingdom. I'm very proud of the fact we have a devolved administration in

Northern Ireland that I'm a minister of. You may make faces of me, the

devolved administration in Stormont is making a difference we are proud

to be part of the United Kingdom and proud to bring the G8 toNorthern

Northern Ireland. You get an answer? I think it was beneficial and it

showed Northern Ireland in an excellent right, only all but good

can come from it. Question two, this comes there from Colin Harvey an

academic from Belfast. Still many more miles to go. Was President

Obama right yesterday about our process and what are the next steps

here? Peace comes dropping slow, said the President, as he addressed

the audience, mostly of young people at the Waterfront Hall yesterday.

Was he right? I think he was right. It was a well crafted speech. It was

aimed at young people. I think young people need inspiration, need to

realise that they need to play their part as much as we do. The important

thing is, this Assembly is in government now. We need to get on

with the job of finishing the peace process. There is a body being set

up, I think it's starting to meet next week, to address all the issues

of the past, the thorny issues. We will play our full part in that. We

don't believe you can move forward unless you deal with the difficult

issues of the past. We failed to do that to date. We need to put our

shoulders to the wheel. Obama was right in that terms. I think it's

good that young people get inspiration from him. There is

another side to this, it's sometimes difficult to listen to people

preaching peace when some of their own actions, in terms of the Middle

East and drones and other things, leave a lot to be desired. In terms

of the spirit in which it was meant, we will take that and I think it was

positive. Did he tell us anything we didn't already know He had a serious

speech, I thought, which was to remind us that we had lost momentum

from where we were perhaps 15 years ago. I think what the whole event

has shown is, do you know what, we are better than this. We can move

forward. What did I take out of it? I was taken with his discussion

about individuals. The fact we don't have to ask permission to do

anything. We can reach out and do it yourselves. We don't have to wait

for anybody else to do it -- ourselves. Our future is in your

hands. And, he made a couple of other really telling points, I

thought, which was about young people saying that the change of

attitudes that come in society, it may not happen in more mature

generations because they fixed their ideas, quite rightly, but the young

people are what moves us forward. The inspiration -- inspirational

talk from Hannah and Michelle Obama, we have to say we can't change and

start demanding that we do. The future is in our hands, we should

take it. OK, you are a young person. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

What did you think? As a young person I take no inspiration from

Barack Obama. He knows nothing about living at an interface area. My

inspiration comes from community workers who work on the interface

not those who know nothing about conflict - He said his parents

marriage would have been illegal in some states. He has come through a

lot... He hasn't come through a 40 year conflict which was sectarian

conflict. The tensions at the interface was the high highest we

seen them. This country is never going to move on unless it comes

from the grassroots up. People are being left outside. Fair point.The

Obama made a point yesterday that, in terms of the peace process, can

we export inspirational Northern Ireland format to the world?

Northern Ireland to commercialise the experience they make here in

Northern Ireland. Would you be willing to make peace world an then

to forget your conflict? We will address that. Jat here. We had

President Obama endorse integrated education. Surely it's time our

politicians focussed on prioritising this. Those may come up. Arlene, was

President Obama stating the obvious yesterday? I think sometimes it's

good that other people come and look at what is going on in Northern

Ireland. We are living through everything here in Northern Ireland.

It is good people come in and look and see from their perspective what

is going on. It did strike me that Hannah that spoke, Hannah Nelson was

only 16, was born long after the ceasefires and hadn't lived probably

through some of the difficulties we have just heard from this young man.

It is important to remember that there are still young people living

in circumstances where it is very difficult to live. They have a

challenge in front of them. Whilst, for other young people, most young

people, I do have to say nowaday, live in circumstances where they do

know the other, where they can engage with the other. There has

been tremendous progress in Northern Ireland. He is right, there is still

much to do. I think you are right in saying that it must come from the

community grassroots upwards. Obviously, what he was saying as

well was that politicians negotiate and make decisions, but it's

important that individually everybody plays their part as well.

That is important that when we do anything in Northern Ireland we take

everybody with us as we move forward. Eamonn, when they are

building towards a united community, we have a 15-year target for taking

down peace walls, that is coming from the top, not from the bottom.

Is it wishful thinking? It is. There are a large element of wishingful --

wishful thinking. Barack Obama said bring down the walls that are

dividing it. If he said, we should bring down the wall that the

Israelis have built, an Israeli state armed to the teeth by the

United States, if he had said that I would take him seriously when he

talks about walls here. The speech with Hannah yesterday, I stood on a

platform yesterday and heard a young woman of 16 or 17 speak without

notes for 15 minutes she made a point which Obama wouldn't make -

what is going to dictate the future life is the question of youth

unemployment, the services that will be available. There is the question

of the quality of education. Youth unemployment across Europe is at a

horrendous rate a direct result of austerity programmes imposed by Mrs

Merkel and the rest there behind the wonderful scenery at Fermanagh. The

G8 will not tackle that. That point would not have been made in County

Fermanagh yesterday had it not been for the people outside marching

against austerity, against the arms trade, against fuelling conflict -

Against that, when the united community talks about 10,000

placements for young people that is moving in the right direction?

will wait to see them. I still say this, the structural unemployment,

particularly among young people, not just in Northern Ireland, but in

Spain and Italy and Greece and in Germany indeed, that is the problem.

Nothing that was done in Fermanagh yesterday by the G8 addresses that

problem at all. Much less sort it. Much as I take your o point about

the Middle East and Obama seriously, does that not suggest to our young

people we shouldn't do anything, what is the point, because there are

bigger fish to fry? Of course not. Does it not create apathy in our

young people? I hope I can come back to that. It's interesting we talk

about youth unemployment in the context of Germany. I agree with

what of Eamonn says. Germany is the country where youth unemployment is

far and by the way the lowest in the world. Why is this? The Germans have

a 6% youth unemployment rate, Greece over 50, Spain moving towards 40%,

Italy has a huge unemployment problem. What the Germans do is they

have a very old system of apprenticeships. So if you leave

school, you go into an apprenticeship. It means young

people are trained to do something. They can actually do something at

the age of 20, number one. Number two, it means that where there is a

demand for the jobs... What happens in a lot of our countries, we

educate people for nothing actually. They can't do anything. When they

come out of university or what have you, even if they don't go to

university, there is no-one that takes a kid by the hand at the ages

of 17, 18, the Germans figured it out. I want to bring the discussion

back to the question about the next steps forward here? I'm interested

that most of the question and discussion are about the economic

side of it rather than the sectarian side. Let me bring a couple of

people in. Yes, sir, just to your left hand side there. There is a lot

of talk about taking down peace walls, but are we going to be

confident we will address the wider issues in those poor neighbourhoods?

And their connection to the jobs and educational opportunities in the

centre of the city. We have different barriers in this country

which we don't recognise, such as roads? The gentleman in the back

row. It's great the usual rhetoric from Barack Obama it sounds great.

Let us make something clear, he could do with building peace in his

own country. I was talking to an American yesterday who said America

is almost at civil war because of Barack Obama, he needs to build

bridges in his own country, but also the Middle East as well. A lot of

young people see through it. Young people need inspired I don't think

Barack Obama is the person. Talking about take taking down peace walls,

how would the people attacked seven nights in a row with petrol bombs

would feel if that wall was to come down or neem Tiger Bay who are

attacked as well? How would they feel? Everyone needs to feel safe

before they are brought down. You wanted to address integrated

education aspect? I did want to. That is the point I was trying to

make in relation to the communities must be comfortable with those walls

coming down before they do come down. It's right we have an

aspiration the walls should come down we will be more peace in those

interface communities. We can't just go in and take the walls away that

would be, as far as I'm concerned, the wrong thing to do having lived

in a border area all my life. I want to address the integrated education

piece. One of the disappointing things for me yesterday was the fact

that they didn't have the opportunity, Barack Obama and the

Prime Minister, to go along and see Fermanagh Community Learning Project

that takes place across all of the schools in Fermanagh. All of the

schools in Fermanagh come together in a shared education environment.

They work very well together. Instead they took the easy option of

going to an integrated school whereas they could have even real

sharing, if they had of choosen to go to that sort of context. I was a

little disappointed with that Noel, I have to say.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Let us move on. Question number

three. Should we arm the Assyrian rebels, knowing what armed groups

can do. We know that G8 has said they will exercise maximum

diplomatic basher to get all of the parties to the table in Geneva with

no timetable or definition of what everyone 's role should be. That is

what they have come up with today. Eamon McCann? Should we arm them?

No, we should not be putting arms into Syria at all. There are enough

people being killed and Vladimir Putin, representative of gangster

capitalism. Arming the regime, largely because of trade relations

but mostly because they haven't big naval base, they are. -- they have a

vague naval base there. France are champing at the bit to get arms into

the hands of the rebels, some pretty unsavoury people. They talk about

peace. Arming Saudi Arabia, that feudal dictatorship, armed to the

teeth by the West and meanwhile, the Israelis are being armed, all being

armed. It is a big Bazaar in the Middle East. What the protesters

said yesterday, unlike G8, they said stop pouring petrol on the fire that

is consuming the people of the Middle East. 93,000 people estimated

killed in Syria. Should people draw back and let them kill each other?

No, not willy-nilly. After all, the intervention of outside forces,

lacking the regime, and the brutality of the Assad dictatorship,

and his father, who murdered on an even bigger scale, at one point

murdering 20,000 people in a single time. The powers outside, not just

the arms, they are manipulating and playing one country off another and

it is a great game for Middle Eastern oil and that has been going

on for a long time and that is the basic problem. And in the Middle

East. And the first thing that ought to be done is a should not be more

arms coming in but Alan Babu of all sides. For the Americans to stop

arming Israel and Saudi Arabia and all the rest of them. -- and arms

embargo. I am no expert but we talk about this great game and it strikes

me like the Balkans in 1914 at every power as a vested interest in some

side and everybody is fighting this proxy war, we all want peace but the

reality is, if you look at people 's actions, you have an enormous

financial incentive coming in from Qatar in the Gulf of Mexico, arming

the rebels. They have been doing that for a very long time, Russia on

the side of resident aside, the Israelis saying they are doing

nothing and say they will keep out of this but ultimately, Leben on

will be dragged into this. As Europeans, what is interesting is

this represents a watershed because what strikes me is this reinforces

the extent to which look cannot project its will any more in the

Middle East and this is a first time in my lifetime when I have seen the

Europeans second but third fiddle and this is the is the way the world

has changed. You have the Middle East, which has oil, and everybody

wants to secure that Boyle. And ultimately, Europe does not have the

muscle any more to be a big player. Questions? In the West were very

quick to put down Vladimir Putin 's understanding and appreciation of

the situation in Serbia and Russia 's form policy has been invariably

far more effective than that of the West since the fall of communism and

four Vladimir Putin, the issues are very much domestic. They share a

land border. As tragic as it may be, I can understand his motivation for

trying to put down the rebel insurgency. Should we encounter

that? -- counter that? I believe that Russia will prevail and they

will sustain President Assad, it is the lesser of evils, we are creating

a power vacuum. When we arm rebels, it is a race to destruction. Russian

foreign policy, in the Middle East, and we, the Middle East but in

Moscow, they call it the site. They see Chechnya and beyond and they

have had a much more consistent approach. The young lady? This is

addressed to Eamon McCann. What is your alternative to negotiating with

governments and corruption is the only thing they have ever known?

gentleman in the second row? real tragedy in Syria is that almost

100,000 people have been killed and there are an estimated 4.5 million

people have fled their homes. The equivalent of the population of

Northern Ireland leaving the country. What is needed is a

political settlement and not more arms. And an agreement that aid can

be delivered to some of the people whose lives have been destroyed.

the lady? If any country arms Syria, what we have is like in Iraq, the

Sunni Moslems, fighting with each other. We have religious disillusion

and political division and the oil wells are pumping. The oil wells

pumping. And into Syria, pro-and anti-President Assad fighting with

each other. Fighting for how many years and the oil wells keep on

pumping. And women, children and men will be dying and starving. This was

not dominating politics and Iraq prior to the invasion. Some

observations. 93,000 people have been killed and I do not know if

anybody saw the footage about the families massacred in their homes,

mothers cradling children and babies and the humanitarian response is

these people are undefended, they are being slaughtered and it is very

well for us to sit here and talk about G8 or President Assad or these

people, the humanity involved in this comes out, we want to try to do

something. And I look here and the challenge that I have put back is I

do here in the McCann, angry at everything, negative at everything,

everything is wrong, the question for all of us is, what are you going

to do about it? How would you fix it? No point in just venting your

spleen. I do support some sort of diplomatic solution, I do think G8

were right in saying we want the Geneva conference together and is an

issue around here about saying, if we arm people, we will end up with

some escalation, like in Iraq. But anybody who has been around and

looked at Kosovo or other places, we all said, somebody please do

something. And I come back to this point and I put this challenge to

you, all of those people who talk about oil and gas and how bad it is.

Remember, it is the oil and gas that keeps your lights on, it actually

drives your car. And we have is a Sidey but is dependent upon it and

how can people respond to these issues? -- we have a society. It is

not that we can impose our solution on anybody else but we can show

people that success is possible. And success comes through dialogue with

people willing to put things together. That is what I is a port.

Diplomatic manoeuvres and something has to happen at Geneva. -- what I

support. This is a humanitarian catastrophe and the figures are

different from different places but they are huge in terms of the people

killed and I have never known it catastrophe that could do with more

goals. Within hours, those guns will be in the hands of people who are

very closely and public are lined with Al-Qaeda. -- publicly aligned.

I ran say they will have 4000 Republican guards coming in as the

first force. Hezbollah are already involved. This is a major issue. The

last thing we need is more weapons being pumped into this. We do need a

political solution and we also need to be consistent and the West picks

good and bad guys and they change every six years. That is no way to

do foreign policy. The West should be more honest about who they deal

with. And one of the risks is that we might be arming extremists but we

should also consider that we need to consider intervention, perhaps not

with arms, to support moderate voices so they do not get sidelined

in any civil war. That is right and when you look at what is happening

in Syria, it would be easy to think that we need to send arms in to

support the rebels. They are having such a horrendous time. But I

fundamentally agree with all of the panel members that sending more arms

into that tinderbox would be fundamentally the wrong thing to do.

And I have to say that Vladimir Putin, on the other side, needs to

pull back as well in relation to his comments on foreign policy. I do

think that despite everything that has been said about the G8 Summit

achieving absolutely nothing, we have seen the Lough Erne

declaration, enquired and I am very proud that that name is attached to

it. --, enquired. And we hope and pray for sense to prevail. And we

need to not just look at the simple solutions, we need to look at the

longer term, if these things were to take place. I welcome Geneva and the

fact that an aid package has been set aside for Syria as well and it

is in port and that gets to the right people. And it is exercised in

a proper way. The lady talked about tax and transparency. -- it is

important. These issues have a real impact on whether countries are able

to feed their population and I was at a service with John Sentamu on

Sunday and he was very strong on this issue of having the proper tax

regimes in place and I welcome all of those things. But Syria is

important, too. They are interlinked. Should be armed rebels

or not? I don't think we should, when you look at Obama coming over

here and he has talked about our past, and we know what happens in

every guns fall into the wrong hands. This is turning into a

sectarian war. And I think it is daft. Not that long ago rogue --

long ago, if we had more goals, what would have happened here?

Christopher? With your claim that you are a move away from sectarian

politics, was a decision to designate yourselves as Unionist and

a steak? The brand-new party, a party for Mr and Mrs. And Basil

McCrea is a leader. A brand-new world of politics? By the way, we

are Unionist as Mac -- we are unionists! The first thing is we do

not like labels. What is nationalist or Unionist? We don't like labels

but what is Unionist or nationalist? UR interrupted! Let us do with this.

We don't like labels. It is so last century. It is the thinking of the

past. Here is the thought process. How did we come up with this name?

We started looking at names like proceed and that was stolen by

somebody and progressive was used, I am much if they were progressive.

Different things. We came up with a name that said, we want to be for

Northern Ireland. And you want to be 21st century. That is the name. We

were determined, we said at the start, we would not have Unionist in

the name and it would not have flags in the literature, that is what we

believe. You get to the stage where we have to designate. It is part of

legislation. We wondered about that. You could be other? If you asked me

the question... This is the issue, we could make the decision and we

believe that Northern Ireland is best served by being part of the UK.

But not everybody believes that. Here is what we will do. We will

introduce legislation, John McAllister and do this very soon,

saying we do not want such a renewables of the past applied to

the system, we don't want people forced to be Unionist or nationalist

or anything else. But we are going to do that anyway? This is really

important. Couple of words.We will do what it takes to move Northern

Ireland forward, away from the sectarian labels of the past and

build a brave new world for our young people and in the meantime, we

will have to put up with what is not a good system but we will change

married a girl from Dundonald, that was confusing enough. I remain

confused. I do sometimes feel... I have been coming to the North for a

long time. Both my kids were born in Dundonald Hospital. We come up,

unusually for a southerner, we are up here all the time. And, we... I

have seen this country change over the last 16 odd years. And, I just

welcome, again, I welcome the idea that somebody says - we will have a

political party. We are hoping it will not be sectarian. What we will

not do is not hang our coat on the sectarian... But he has. That is

where the confusion - No, he has not. You will have a chance to come

back. Don't know, I was listening to him there. I can see somebody

beginning to deal in his head with how does this country move in this

direction? OK. That, it's interesting listening here, that

will take all sorts of compromises. You are going to make mistakes and

do stupid things. It has to be, again, I come back to it, it has to

be a good idea you are moving in that direction. You are so last

century! I'm a unionist and I'm proud of. It I don't take that away.

I'm confused about Basil. He says he believes in the UK. Then he says he

doesn't want to be tagged as a unionist. You either believe in the

UK or you don't believe in the UK. I believe fundamentally in the United

Kingdom. What about the people who believe you are Northern Irish and

be a nationalist or unionist? That is fine for them. I believe in all

the benefits that come with being with the United Kingdom. I get

confused with Bass sill if he wants to say... You should join me.

should join you if I'm confused, that's right!

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Thankfully, I'm not confused.

you sure you you are not confused? couldn't be clearer about being a

unionist. I'm the only person on the panel who is, apparently, quite

comfortable with it. A gentleman in the back row, please. I have to say

I quite like the idea of Basil's new party, I like the name. I like the

logo. I have been on the website. It looks good. I have struggled to see

the detail of the policy behind the razzle dazzle, Basil. We don't have

time to get into NI21's policies tonight. It is the name. Lady in the

third row? Attitudes like like Arlenes that will keep us stuck in

the pass and stop us progress progressing onto the future? Being a

unionist? No.Are you denying my right to be a unionist. Party

believe, we believe... "We believe." I like it! Gentleman here. I feel

there should be one unionist party. This is what our unionist party is.

There are too many unionists parties. Because they couldn't

become kingpins they decided to go their own way. I said play-the-ball,

not the man. Third in there please. Is there anything new you can bring

to the communities that have a disconnection to the two main

unionist parties? I will give him a chance to do that. Another hand that

I hadn't seen before, I have now lost. That chance has gone. Eamonn,

what do you think the problem, too many unionist parties, is that the

problem with Northern Ireland? don't care how many unionist or

nationalist party there are. I'm not a unionist or a nationalist. One of

the interesting things said with about our sectarian decision was

said by Jim Wells he said to Mrs Lowe - it doesn't matter what you

say. When we take a vote on this you won't matter. Only because there is

a Petition of Concern. Only nationalist and unionist votes will

matter. The sectarian identification, even in Stormont, is

privileged over people who want to call themselves "others" if we were

serious in breaking down sectarian barriers we would look at those

occasions in our history, including our recent history, when sizeable

numbers of people detached themselves from the community to

which they so to speak belong and join hands to do something else.

Going back 100 years or three years are owe kiegss when people joined

together to fight for the economic rights for the people at the bottom

of the society. There are no other examples. People never do it when

they are preached at. They do it when they come together on a basis

which has nothing to do with the community you come from. That is the

way forward. In Fermanagh yesterday and elsewhere down through the years

that is what people like me are fighting for. The I don't think will

is anything wrong with being a unionist, or equally I don't think

there is anything wrong being a nationalist. I don't think I'm

(inaudible) to strive for a united Ireland or strive to keep the union.

I don't know what Basil is afraid of. He is clearly a unionist heaven

should not be afraid to say. It I have no problem in supporting the

right to be there. It's not the same thing to say people, if you are a

unionist you are sectarian or nationalist you are sectarian. We

have built a society where we can hopefully work together for the

betterment of all our people. I will never cease to be an Irish

Nationalist. I can work with anybody from the unionist parties. You are

not going to back down. I will challenge a couple of points. Colin

says he is clearly a unionist. Who gives you the right - You did. You

just designated yourself as a unionist. You designated yourself a

unionist. Eamonn pointed out there are stuckure problems you have to

deal with. There are structural problems which we will change, they

are not working right. The second thing, people asked me about the PUL

community what we will do is different. Something different has

to happen. You are not in a good place at the moment. Whatever advice

you have been getting, where ever you have gone you need to do

something different. We need to tell people this is the way forward. When

it comes to where is Northern Ireland going to go forward, we are

not interested in the old labels of the past. We are going to move

forward. I'm stuck with a system I don't like. NI21 will do something

different for Northern Ireland. Christopher, what do you think, were

they right or wrong? Arlene's point that if there is nothing wrong with

being a unionist. When you attach that label to yourself and base your

politician on that idea that is sectarian you are dividing your

self- - No. Sorry. The fundamental concept of unionism is that we have

civil and religious liberties for all, how can it be sectarian. It's a

nonsense. New hands. A lot of people seem to be afraid to express their

cultural identity. I'm a unionist. I work with nationalists every day. I

know they are nationalists. We can work together. You don't have to

hide your identity like Basil says. You don't have to hide it. So much

to discuss so little time. Now, question five from Nadine Campbell a

fundraising manager from en skillen. -- Enniskillen. The G8 focussed on

tax and transparency. If Northern Ireland adopts a lower rate of

corporation tax are we in danger of becoming a tax haven island albeit

without the good weather? Indeed. Your Finance Minister accused the

Republic of stealing UK taxes. Because they have a low-tax rate,

corporation tax rate, if we had one, would we be stealing UK money as

well? I think you misunderstood was Sammy was saying. He was refrjing

the fact that the exchequer had put a considerable amount of money into

the Irish banks at the time of the whole break down. What he was saying

is that they needed to get a clear vision of what was happening in

relation to the taxes that were being paid in the Republic of

Ireland. That is not what he said. He said they were stealing it?

That is the background to what was happening in relation to Sammy. Can

I say, there does need to be more transparency in relation to what

happens in the Republic of Ireland because, as you know, we go out, we

look for jobs, we look for investment in Northern Ireland. We

play by the rules that have been set for us by the European Union

sometimes frustrating rules they are too, I have to say, Noel. It does -

it is interesting to see the way in which the Republic of Ireland seems

to be able to bring in these companies in a way which we are not

clear as to how they are doing all of that. If it naes relation to

corporation tax, that is fine. It's one of the reasons we want to a

devolution of corporation tax for Northern Ireland so we can match or

indeed go lower - Compete with the Republic in being equally tax

havenish? It's about everything else connected to it. That is why we need

to have transparency in relation to the whole issue so we can all play

in a level playing field am we are all members of the European Union.

We are all supposed to be playing by the same rules. David?

Republic's policy of low-tax on capital came from the fact that we

didn't have any capital. We had to make it attractive to come into the

Republic. You make it cheap you don't tax it as much as your

neighbours. That was the first idea. And, I think now we are in danger...

There is a big difference between a country regarded as a country with

low capital gains tax... Low corporation. There is a huge leap to

a tax haven. With that all sorts of other issues because there is good

money and bad money in the world. OK. By that I mean, if you attract

in - if the Republic does, companies whose only explicit reason is to not

pay their fair share of tax in the countries where they generate their

revenue, then I believe we would, in the long run, not benefit from this

because I was very instreegd. Remember recently in Cyprus where

the Cypriot depositors were told they would have to pay for their

banks. One of the spins against the Cypriots was that, Cyprus is really

just a money laundering place for Russia. OK. When they went looking

for friends the sip Premier League yots they didn't have any. Why?

People felt they were harbouring Russian money. Now, I think that is

a very interesting lesson for the likes of the Republic because if you

go down the road of beggar my neighbour, your neighbour will get

feddup. I agree. The future is not about taxation, the future is about

skills. If I had �300 million to spend from the corporation tax I

would be trying to restrain all of our people for the future. I do not

want to be chasing low paid, low skilled jobs. It's about giving

people the opportunity to compete in the world. So, when you talk about,

it I will not say much about it, the issue that the G8 brought out about

the tax avoidance or the aggressive tax manipulation I agree with. You

have to find some way where you get a level playing field for people to

compete. It is OK, I think, for countries that are on the periphery

of certain blocks like Europe to have a tax rate to encourage

investment. What is not appropriate is for large multinational

corporations to exsplot those tax loopholes to the detriment of all of

us. Colin I don't think the comments were helpful to start with when we

are going to the British treasury asking them to lower our corporation

tax or to allow us to do that. I don't think that the Republic is a

tax haven. They are entitled to have the tax regime that they wish. I

think it's more than about the tax issue. Corporation tax is important

- The questions about the tax issue? It is. We need to ensure that while

we wait on this corporation tax bill coming down-the-line we do all the

other things that an economy needs to do. We invest in the road and

rail network. That we invest in the skills of our young people. I come

from a city that has too too high an unemployment rate. We need to tackle

that. We can tackle it without corporation tax being devolved.

Gentleman here. Is the last Soviet left in the western world. Until we

get 72% of the population not rely - our GDP not public funded we will go

nowhere. We will also go nowhere with 30% of the population education

Ali inefficient. What are your thoughts? If we collected all the

taxes we should do it would equate to three times the worth of aid and

the money we are giving. It's part of a bigger issue. It is. That is

absolutely right. What is happening is that we are being ripped off by

the rich. We are being ripped off for billions of pounds. With no say

of anything being done about it. We talk about regulation and cracking

down on this. We remember the phrase - light touch regulation. We don't

actually interfere. We heard it over and over again from British

politicians not only Conservative politicians, Labour politicians as

well. If you try to interfere with or impose some sort of order, impose

rules on the big financial companies they will go to Frankfurt. They will

flee, therefore you have to let them do. That is the key to the

development where by they pay as much tax as they like. They have

meetings with the Head of the Revenue and Tax - I want to bring

you back to the question. Do you think Northern Ireland should go for

12. 5 corporate tax rate would that make us as bad or good as the

Republic? I don't think it will make a difference. A company in the south

paying 12. 5%, is either very foolish or more likely they have bad

accountants. I hate to give you the last word, I have to. I was dieing

to ask you which of the G8 ministers would make the next best Doctor Who.

We don't have time for it. Thank you to all my guests and to a vigorous