03/12/2013 Spotlight

Hello and welcome to an hour of robust topical discussion. The talks

are approaching their deadline. One of the issues that may come up with

our panel is the flag. We are joined by Rita Duffy, an artist full stop

Naomi Long, an MP from the Alliance Party. Billy Hutchinson. Sinn Fein

education Minister John O'Dowd. And the DUP enterprise Minister Arlene

education Minister John O'Dowd. And Foster. Ladies and gentlemen, that

is the panel. You have your part to play at home

full stop let us know what you think about the talking points of the day.

Text your comments. Let us go right away to our first

question. With Judge Smithwick 's recent rejection, how can anyone

have any confidence in the process? It said there was collusion in the

process and rejected evidence from former IRA members. Naomi Long. But

it highlights is that there are two grieving families dealing with the

fallout of what was announced today. That is something we need to be

conscious of. They are ordinary people who have had their lives

changed. We need to be sensitive to that. In terms of how we deal with

this as a process going forward, we have a ready said that something

along the lines of an amnesty is not something that could deliver. We

have had a measure of truth today and I think that shows we need to

continue to explore our past and try to deal with these issues and

confront the truth was up to deal with these issues and confront the

truth was out what it does show is that we have to have a process in

which those who are acting in a paramilitary capacity are also held

accountable for their actions. If we end up with a process which simply

looks at state involvement in whether that is the Irish or British

state, we would get a narrative which is not full and reflective of

the entire picture. That is where confidence needs to be built in

terms of how willing people will be to cooperate and how we will make it

work. For some victims it would be about justice. It should not be

ruled out. Others may want a process that offers the truth but there

needs to be confidence built by those who will be able to provide

that trust that they are willing to do so. We hear from some that a

truth commission would be the arena where they would tell what happened.

Here are three former members of the IRA speaking to a tribunal and the

judge said I do not believe you. It is a 500 page report. I think the

report deserves to be studied in detail. He discounted the evidence.

The tribunal, there was contested evidence given from the former are

The tribunal, there was contested you see, the Garda and from sources

who were informers and therefore and reliable court -- characters in the

first place. People come forward and give evidence and then the report is

delivered in an enquiry. This came out of the negotiations in 2001. The

British and Irish governments agreed to several enquiries. The only party

to those negotiations have been the British government. Let us talk

about Smithwick. What influence whether this decision have an any

future truth commission? We should not dismiss truth commission. The

Smithwick style enquiry will not be the enquiry, we are talking about an

international style truth committee. -- commission. Might a

say we told the truth to the Smithwick tribunal and they said

they do not believe that. What is the point going forward quest Mike?

The Smithwick tribunal was a formal process in the current phase. If we

are to resolve, we have to deal with it in a competency of way. Arlene

Foster, this was described as the death knell for any truth

commission? death knell for any truth

want a Smithwick tribunal type. How can you have a truth commission

where part of the paramilitaries are going to come forward and tell their

so-called truth which does not bear any resembles to what actually

happened? That has always been a concern of my party. Can I also say

that I welcomed the findings in this tribunal. This will be a difficult

day for the families and we should always remember the victims and they

should be centred in all that we say in these programmes. As someone who

grew up on the border with the Irish Republic, I knew there was collusion

going on and I brought a group of victims don't to meet the Ibis Prime

Minister recently that I Prime Minister recently. This should be a

catalyst for the Irish government to acknowledge and I welcome the

apology. We waited to hear what the Irish Prime Minister will say.

Omissions were made at that particular point in time in relation

to the death squads that roamed around in the border areas at that

point in time. There are a number of issues here. Can we have truth and

justice at the same time? I am not sure. In many ways, we need to get

all those people who were involved in the conflict to take some sort of

corporate responsibility will stop when you bring it down to

individuals, they were not come forward because of prosecutions. We

also saw prosecutions in Nuremberg because of such actions. We need to

make sure victims are listened to. We need to mature we can move on and

make sure victims are listened to. read need to be able to move on.

Arlene made the point. I know the Irish government has been involved

with the IRA. Some of that has already come out. We need to be very

careful that this process is about everybody and not just about the

British government. This is about all of those who took part in the

conflict. We need to make sure this happens. Heretic to pick up an

8-point made about the idea of victims of IRA violence and

paramilitary violence being as important as victims of state

collusion. It is no hierarchy of victims. It is especially important

that you need to pick up an allegations of state collusion.

States are seen as legitimate entities. If states are involved and

that raises serious questions about the legitimacy of any state in the

Western world. I think the issue of collusion whether it is state

violence or paramilitary violence, I also was aware that there were death

squads roaming around the border area. I had a cousin killed in a

telephone box. He was 18 years of age and went to phone his mother. He

lost his life. The press at the time but

lost his life. The press at the time coming up from the south, perhaps

with a bomb that had gone off and fortunately. It turned out it was a

death squad from the North. I think it is sufficient to say we have had

a war and it is time we moved on and built a future.

Are you concerned that this finding of the tribunal that the higher rate

evidence was not reliable will have an effect on any future forum? I

hold with the idea of proper future of reconciliation, but there is

legislation that will prevent that from happening. The pattern you can

case, my sister is a lawyer, and there has been a lot of shifting

around, so I do not know how much of this we can afford? We only have a

short life. The important thing about this report, I accept it has

only come out and people need to go through it, but one of these stark

things was not just about the incident, the terrible deaths of

these two people, it was a culture of collusion that is mythic talks

about. It is not just one or two bad apples, it is a culture of

collusion. That is something that the Irish government needs to make a

statement on and needs to recognise what went on in the 1970s, 1980s and

1990s. On the issue of collusion, William Fraser asked if the

English-speaking voice in the Kingsmill murders was involved in

it, what is your opinion on that? We need to try to keep it to keep its

two these mythic issue, what the question was about. -- qubits to

this mythic issue. This lady was able to give an account about what

happened to her family, and this man is not allowed to ask the question?

We have limited time, you must understand, we need to keep to the

original question. Just as for the victims is very important, I had two

cousins that were murdered in 1984, but the reconciliation process is to

allow closure for the families and for the victims, and you can get

this to the truth and reconciliation process. Let's go back to Leanne.

Absolutely, my question was answered, I agree with what was

said, if the families and victims get justice, that is what needs to

be done. Let's go to the next question from a civil engineer from

County Antrim. Why were all of the party is so quick to dismiss the

comments from John Larkin, the attorney general, about drawing a

line under the past? Yes, he got some flack about putting an end to

prosecutions and enquiries on issues before the Good Friday agreement.

One or two people supported him, but in general, was rounded upon by most

people. That is find out from Arlene, what do you think? John is

entitled to hold those opinions and to express those opinions, but he

needs to know that when he expresses these opinions, he has an impact on

the politicians but also a huge impact on all of the victims across

Northern Ireland that were in packed it by the troubles. He should have

looked at this. -- that were in at it by the troubles. I do not think

he thought about that. When you look at the fact that the Proctor family

finally got justice last week in relation to the death of their loved

one, John Proctor, murdered renders the front coming out from seeing his

little baby. When we see that my party colleague, Sammy Brasch, he

got justice from when he was attacked in County Tyrone, and

everyone should have the attacked in County Tyrone, and

to access justice. That has to be the way we work in a democratic

society. Even if the victims know that as years pass, in the wake of

John Larkin's comments, the chances of getting justice well received

very quickly? -- will recede very quickly. Yes, this is correct, but

in the Proctor case, they brought through new methods and new

evidence, and they could find out who killed John Proctor. The fact

that this murderer will only serve two years is apparent to me, but

everybody else supported the Good Friday Agreement here, and

therefore, it is more of a recognition that this man has killed

somebody, but at the end of the day, it gives him the wreckage vision,

they know who murdered their loved ones and they have that could ocean.

-- that recognition. Is it not important for those that died in the

troubles that this peace process goes ahead and it changes the lives

of young people that desperately need to be helped. There is a point

where thinking about the past and searching for this truth, it is so

difficult to find something in life that is an absolute truth, so we

should surely be tilting towards the future? That is fine, but we cannot

tell the victims what they should and should not have. Your argument

is for the greater good of society. You need to have the hope of getting

justice. If we had empathy, compassion, we would build a

stronger peace process. In war-torn areas of the world, there is a limit

to the point where people are victims, there is a point of people

are encouraged to get on with their lives. APPLAUSE

I do not believe this excludes us from having justice for the past.

You can have a culture of people are forgiving and can move on with their

lives. But you also have a centre in justice is not ignored, because this

is a good welding block for the future. We need to speak to families

properly, they may never gets justice because of the passage of

time, they may not get truth because people that have the truth may not

give it up, and we need to be honest about that and not raise expect

nations beyond where it is possible. That is a different

conversation to watch John Larkin was proposing, I think even if it is

possible, you would be denied the right to justice. I do not think any

of us has the right to impose that. It could be that there is part of

this process where we are looking at the past, that some victims will

choose to forego justice to try to attain the truth instead. To get

one, you could not be able to have the other, possibly, but that is the

choice for the individual victims and we have to respect these

decisions that they make, and we have to respect these

for them, this is personal and it is not about the past, they live with

it every day. Their lives have changed, it is their present and we

need to find ways to do this with integrity so we can build a better

future. Billy Hutchinson. I am not so sure that the Attorney General

just through this out there. I am not sure that he just party would

shock this, I think he did it for a reason. The question has come from

the floor, I think the reality is, it is an option. Nobody says it is

the right option, but it is an option. It goes back to the argument

of transitional justice, do the victims want truth or justice? Some

may want to justice, some may want the truth. The two are compatible

for this reason, because of somebody has the truth and they come forward

with it, and the truth of this is, they will suffer the consequences

for the rest of their lives. It does not matter if they go to prison for

two years, they have consequences for the rest of their lives because

there are government restrictions on what you can do. I am not so sure

that the attorney general said this... I don't think people lose

sleep over people serving two years for murder. The point is, I

recognise, as someone involved in the conflict, but victims are the

way forward. Do you want an honesty? -- amnesty? I do not know,

I do not think an amnesty is on people 's lips. He has not looked at

the prosecutions over the last number of years since signing the

Good Friday Agreement, have we had any benefits from the prosecutions

that have happened, that is what he is saying? All he is doing is

putting a question out there, it is an option, not necessarily the right

one. Let us hear from the floor. The conundrum has been expressed by the

last few panellists, what they have said. The victims do not, they are

not uniform. Some will seek justice, some will be content with

the truth and can move on with that. But as Billy said to the first

question, we will not get the truth if the issues of justice, perhaps,

are not dealt with. People will not tell the truth. That is the

conundrum we are facing. Notwithstanding the appetite for

truth or justice, clearly Notwithstanding the appetite for

cost money, has nobody in the panel considered that the Attorney General

is getting it out there that there is no money for either? It is not a

money question. This is about trying to heal the past to build the

future. I think John Larkin handled the situation poorly. He is

perfectly entitled to put out the message that he did, but he should

have spoken to the victims groups and advised that he would be saying

that, and they would be prepared for that. He has certainly sparked a

debate. He had support from the Bishop of down and Connor, and Basil

McCrea before that. We have come out of it conflict, not a criminal

conspiracy, this is an internationally recognised conflict

that needed a internationally recognised conflict

resolve it, not criminal legislation to resolve it, not criminal acts to

resolve it, not militarism to resolve it, a political process that

is act I some of the most powerful nations in this world to make it

work. -- act that is backed by some of the more powerful nations. The

rights of victims are also not uniform. We know who carried out the

shootings on bloody Sunday 40 years ago. They're as been no criminal

investigation into that. We know who carried out the shootings in 1971 in

Ballymurphy, had been no criminal investigations into that. We know

who was involved in the military reaction force in Belfast and other

faces because it wasn't only a Belfast operation and it did not

only end in 1972 or 1973, but none of those people are spending two

years in jail for anything and they never well. Go ahead. Do you believe

in the truth? You're talking about bloody Sunday and everything else

that your party colleagues will tell the truth that they were in the IRA

and did a lot of shooting and bombing to your party Catholics? And

yet you back, yet you are saying, you are all for the truth and

whatever happened, bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, as that is fine, and I

agree with all that. There is clearly Sinn Fein members that were

members of the IRA, there were clearly other political party

members that were involved of armed groups as well, but we have got to

this point because we were involved in a peace process, there was a

conflict between nations and communities here that had to be

resolved. We will not resolve it through a criminal analysis going

into the future. Back to Terry. I think that as a society and as

politicians, there is too much time bickering about the past and no

amount of enquiries will ever solve it. We need to build for the future,

it is about the living and not the dead. Let's go to our next question

now. Does the panel believe that we should follow the example of Canada

who in 1965 decided to adopt a new and iconic flag for their country?

Yes, previous Canadian flag had some version of the union flag on them,

but in 1965 they adopted the maple leaf. Richard Haass has told people

to think about a new flag, Billy Hutchinson, watched you think? --

what do you think? From my point of view, the union Jack is the national

flag of the country, I am British and I live in Britain, so I do not

want to see a new flag or do I want to be involved in creating a new

one. We need to be careful about using other countries as examples of

what went on. I have relatives living in Canada, and they were not

particularly happy whenever these flags were changed, so from that

point of view, we do not have everyone's view. Richard Haass has

thrown out a question and he is asking us about a flag. He had a

number of other questions and asking us about a flag. He had a

of these I am not so sure that he will get any conclusions from and

Naomi Long said she was involved in talks today, so it will be

interesting how involved the executive got? Is there a concrete

way to own up to the recognition that there are two competing

ideologies? We have talked a lot about the past. The problem is we

have not dealt with the past and that is why we have problems around

parades and flags. The DL it is when Sinn Fein members cannot even after

the name Northern Ireland, when they are administering British rule in a

British Assembly. This is a long mindset about the terminology we

use. We have gone through a peace process was up we went to see less

flags hanging. That is what people want to see. As an Irish republican,

I have allegiance to the Irish tricolour. It is not a flag stands

for that is the most important thing. I do not believe I have

hoisted any flag anywhere. Have you taken any down? I have. I have taken

Irish tricolour is down when they were being used for the wrong

reasons. What we need to do is work our way through this current phase

of negotiations and inwardly about colours on a flag afterwards full

stop there that the important issues being dealt with. You talk about

identity and history. I think this is fascinating for supper I am so

glad Richard has come over and listened. You are doing me out of a

job. I have considered flags since I first saw them. The severed red hand

was on the coat of arms. It is the symbol of Ulster full stop Unionists

have adopted it but it belongs to all of us and we can track it back

to ancient times for that I would like to see a flag with the red hand

on debt. A variation. -- an egg. Flags are enormously expensive.

Nationalities have become ludicrously expensive when you think

about the wars and the disturbances around the world. I think

nationalities and flag should only be used in it ought. We need to

start working together, but just in Northern Ireland but across the

land. The red hand of -- the red hand of Ulster is one artefact data

has been exhibiting at Derry-Londonderry City of Culture. A

flag is more than a piece of cloth. The union flag is not the only flag

and people like to recognise the Irish tricolour. There are many

analogies. It is not just about the union flag or the tricolour. Making

a new flag would be a good idea to move us forward. One theory is that

Richard has been playing devils advocate when talking about flags.

This could be a active to get politicians to take action on these

issues. The British government treated Unionism as the Americans

treated the beard dummies -- the Vietnamese. A government using a

treated the beard dummies -- the sense that it was expendable. The

Alliance Party got into a lot of trouble wanting to take the flag

down of Belfast City Hall. Where do you stand on the one flag, the new

flag issue? The first issue is about whether it would be good to have

shared symbols in Northern Ireland, things in common. It is a unique

region. That is a positive thing to explore as a community. We have seen

that symbols are hugely emotive. We see it with all of our symbolism. If

we can find symbols that evoke that passion about Northern Ireland in a

united way it would be good. I would not rule things in and out. I want

to hear what people have to say and I want to explore those ideas with

other people. It does not solve the fundamental issue that we are

dealing with in terms of Richard has and that is how we treat our

constitutional symbols. We should treat both flags with respect and

dignity as we would treat with respect the flag of any mission.

That does not mean having shared symbols plays a role in and locking

those symbols. They are not necessarily a solution to the core

problem but it would help to move us down the road and that would be a

step forward. We down the road and that would be a

dilution of the national flag. That is from the statement of the deed

you leave. -- DUP. The Belfast agreement made it clear that under

the principle of consent, we would remain part of the United Kingdom

until the greater number of people decided otherwise. Under the

principle of consent therefore the union flag is the flag of this part

of the United Kingdom. That is our national flag. It should be accorded

the respect from everybody, not just from Unionist but everyone in the

country but it is our national flag. We will not allow any dilution of

the national flag because it is the flag of the nation and as a British

subject that is where I am. The peace process is about recognising

two traditions. It is also about keeping the principles we signed up

to. The principle of consent in the Belfast agreement is clear. We are

staying in the United Kingdom until such times as the greater number of

people decide otherwise for the icy note evidence of the greater number

of people in Northern Ireland moving away from the United Kingdom for

that in fact we are moving more in the other direction. Flying the flag

on designated days at all cancers in Northern Ireland would achieve

that. That is our proposal in terms of dealing with the flag for the pic

is how it is flown at the majority of councils across the rest of the

United kingdom. -- United Kingdom. They do you recognise my Irish

identity quest to Mac it is not up to me to recognise that. While I am

saying to you is that you have to accept what you signed up to in the

Belfast agreement which is the principle of consent. Sinn Fein time

and time again move away from that. That is another aspect which you

have failed upon. Do you believe the recent violence from Unionism. We

are moving away from the question now. What have you deemed from that?

The reason they decided to now. What have you deemed from that?

was they had been involved in the peace process after the Suez crisis

in the 1950s. It was good to rebrand and shake off some of their colonial

baggage. There is no country more loyal to the Commonwealth than

Canada. Not to mention Quebec and Montreal. They felt it was time to

rebrand and move on. I believe Northern Ireland has reached that

point. There is a fundamental distance. Northern Ireland is a

constituent part of the United Kingdom. Canada never was. The flag

constituent part of the United is in the union flag was up I would

be happy to adopt the Saint Patrick flag. Time for the next question. Is

the UVF cease-fire still intact? There have been instances and

protests about the flag. If the cease-fire still intact? It is still

intact. You will have two ask the IRA. I am saying it is intact. But

what I am saying to the questioner is that you have two

what I am saying to the questioner the IRA cease-fire is still intact.

If we take the statement by the Deputy First Minister that the UVF

was organised in an incident. None of the people involved were in the

UVF. The police cannot tell me who was responsible for the shooting for

the people on the ground do not know. People in East Belfast do not

believe it was the UVF. Those sort of thing should not be

believe it was the UVF. Those sort now. I do not believe you can be a

criminal and a loyalist at the same time. I am in the Progressive

Unionist Party and we have a broad church. We know the party is linked

to the UVF. We have been saying this from before 1984. Our goal is to

give political advice whenever they ask for it. It is a closer link than

anyone else at this table. I have answered the question. I do think

people need to recognise that there are Republicans out

people need to recognise that there kill people and take the city apart.

We are not hearing questions coming from there. The UVF cease-fire is a

matter for the chief constable and the police to determine on. The

signs are not good in terms of the attempted murder and what is going

on in relation to Tracey Coulter. That is another colour military

organisation. That paramilitary organisation could I do not care

where any paramilitary organisation comes from that that is no place

them in Northern Ireland today. That is the point that needs to be made.

They need to get off the backs of the working class people in those

areas and they need to move away from their loan shark activities and

drug activities and all those sorts of activities that back bringing

harm to working class areas. I think we need to send clear messages out

that paramilitary is has no place in Northern Ireland. We have to be

clear about this. The chief constable and assistant chief

constable and others cannot tell us where this is going on. It is OK for

members of the Assembly to say all of this but that is no evidence from

the police that suggests to me this is going on. We want to see a

society where there are no paramilitaries in society. We should

watch the show, listening to do what they are saying and witness the

diatribe spilling into people 's living rooms is part of the problem.

Orange, green, it does not change. You do not represent me. It is time

to move on. It is a whole lot of us here who do not take sides and never

have. We have been left behind. When I say paramilitaries should go, that

is taking sides? The question was, do we believe the

the UVF are still in operation? We have people that are being

threatened by the UVF and are looking for my help. We need to look

at who is responsible? I think it is the Secretary of State that has two:

If these fires are still in place or not, but the reality is, people do

not believe that after the brutal attack after somebody like Gemma

McGrath, who we hope will walk again, but when you see a young

child of 15, shot in the legs, who might lose their limbs, that is

child abuse. I am not discounting those who took a bomb into the city

centre and left it and could have caused absolute carnage in our city

centre. I do not discount that, nor do I argue that we should all those

people to account, but nobody is arguing that those people are on

cease-fire. Nobody is arguing that the people are not engaged in active

terrorism. People create a smoke screen by saying elements within,

almonds within the UVF are links to responsible for... If the UVF are

behind these attacks, we need clarity and we need to shine a light

on those attacks where it is clear that former Republicans, mainstream

Republicans, they had been working with dissident republicans, because

it has been clear from some of the devices that were planted that this

technology has been passed on. We need to highlight all of that, and I

ask of the government that they put in place the kind of reporting that

we had when he has the Independent in place the kind of reporting that

monitoring commission to look at the activities, both those that are

criminal and terrorist related and shine a light on that. I agree with

the woman in the audience, this is the point where I switch off the

television and I sit on my sofa and dream, wouldn't it be amazing if we

could educate our children together? Wouldn't it be incredible

if we could stop adding ridiculous arrogance about flags this matter I

would not like any flag! Other than the one I would cook up myself! I

would like the money wasted on policing these arguments to go to

the health service, to go to the education service, and frankly, I

think the loyalist people have been sold a pub in thinking that holding

on to a piece of material with crosses and exes in red and blue

actually maintained their sense British this? My sense of humanity

is my nationality, my family is my nation. Do you think the UVF

cease-fire is over? The evidence is on the ground. If you are living in

east Belfast, North Belfast or other constituencies under the control of

the UVF, you cannot turn the TV off, it is the reality of the

situation in their lives. The question is, why is it still in

existence 15 years after the cease-fire is? No matter how many

years, six or seven years since the disbandment of the IRA, and they

have disbanded, it may suit the debate for Naomi to say, mainstream

Republicans are involved in this, no credible analysis of the current

situation will show you that mainstream Republicans are involved

in any of the anti-peace process activities that are being carried

out by the UVF or by so-called dissident republicans. I suspect

that the same people running the UVF are running dissident republicans

and I hope in ten years time you're not sitting in this studio finding

out that malign elements within the so-called British security services

were messing with all of our lives? Let's go back to the question. Billy

knew all along that there was collusion with the mythic tribunal,

wide it he not bring his evidence before the tribunal took place? At

however, I have no time for any paramilitary organisations or any

type of violence in any quarter, but the violence that has been portrayed

on the Shankill, that the lady's home was attacked and drug-related,

they need to... The lady's home in the Shankill Road is nothing to do

with the UVF, she has said to it was, we need to be clear about all

of this. Yes, we need to be accurate at all times. Now, a question. Is

Gerry Adams now a liability to Sinn Fein and Republicans, both north and

south of the border? A recent re-weighting over questions in his

role in the disappeared and other the conviction of his brother Liam

on sex abuse charges have raised questions, do you think is

liability? If I ask this question, why are so many enemies of

Republicans looking to get rid of him? When I see anti-peace process

Republicans on the TV telling allayed stories about Gerry Adams

and are feeling some Gerry Adams and how he is damaging republic is,

these are the same people that walked away from republicanism,

because he was bringing us into the peace process. When I see the

mainstream media concerned about the future of Sinn Fein because Gerry

Adams is leading them, this is the same media that for years have been

attacking Sinn Fein on a wide variety of issues and I say, they

are not genuinely concerned for the well-being of Sinn Fein are Gerry

Adams or the victim of Liam Adams, because it is the child that is

abused by the media, the South, because it is the child that is

these allegations. In fairness, she came forward. I am not pointing any

finger of blame to the victim of this crime, do not suggest this. I

am not saying this, you said the media were dragging it out, she

rejected anonymity and came forward. People are not interested in the

victim, they are interested in political scaremongering. Gerry

Adams has your support? Yes, until he stands at the Ard Fheis and says

he does not want to be the leader, then he will have my support. There

is a great danger for people using politics as other types of showbiz

for the less talented. I think we are talking about going around in

circles and I do not really care very much about our politicians, to

be honest with you! They do not have any leadership. It is showbiz for

the ugly, present company excluded! These are important questions, the

questions about what Gerry Adams might have known about the

disappeared, his role might hit have been in the ultimate conviction of

his brother... I am not naive enough to think that everything he said is

true. I do not think a lot of what our politicians say is true, a lot

of it is about perception and about encouraging people to vote in

traditional ways. I think that we think Lily failed to have leadership

in this country. -- singer Lily failed. What is important at the

moment is the possibility of fracking in County Fermanagh. She

seems to dismiss politics out of hand, it plays to anti-peace process

elements, and I am not talking about any politics. I am very political. I

have very political but I do not think we have effective politics in

Northern Ireland. Naomi, would you address the question of Gerry Adams

being a liability or otherwise to Republicans north and south? I am

not in a position to say whether Republicans think he is a liability

or not, that is their decision, but I think it does show how things were

in Northern Ireland, not just in terms of what one to me that he did

to another, but the kind of injustices that were meted out

within families and within communities because of the very

warped sense of loyalty that people had to different causes. Fact that

people didn't feel they could engage with the police, the fact that they

did not think they had recourse to justice, the fact that people opted

to go to paramilitary is to add resolution rather than the normal

justice system, and how justice was denied, but also on the core

issues. Things like child abuse, things like abuse of young people,

those things also were not given their problems during the troubles,

because everything focused on something else. That is injustice,

and that will out also. And that is why walking away from the past is

not a solution, we have why walking away from the past is

the past, deal with the past, and that involves everyone in this room

and it involves Gerry Adams also and no walking away from what he did,

what he did and did not know. It has to be acknowledged by everyone in

the community and we need to find ways to heal this harm that has been

done. Essentially, there are two questions in relation to the

leadership of Sinn Fein. That is a matter for Sinn Fein and they will

make their own decision. As to his credibility, he has not had any

credibility for some considerable time. This insistence that he is not

a member or never was a member of the IRA is just laughable, nobody

believes him. The issue about the disappeared which was hugely

difficult programme to watch, but a very important programme to be have

been made. His credibility is nowhere. If you look at his point

about politicians in Northern Ireland and if you look at Naomi's

point, there was a culture of secrecy, particularly around child

abuse in the 70s, 80s and 90s and I have seen it in my constituency and

you may conclude politicians, Rita, you're entitled to do that, but if

you are dealing with constituents that have suffered from historic

child abuse going back to the 70s and 80s, I think that we do quite a

good job in a constituency offices. You may disagree, but that is a

fundamental part of what we date. You might see a Sun TV thinking we

fight and stew of those things, but we deliver a service. Very quick

late, Billy. Looking at it from the outside, there are three things that

has hung Gerry Adams, from sort of people that are not involved with

republicanism, and that is, the non-reporting of the rape of his

knees. -- neice. Also, his denial of being in the IRA, and also the

disappeared. What do you think? Stephen, what you think the answer

to your question is? I Stephen, what you think the answer

is becoming a bit of a liability, and in general, my personal opinion,

I would welcome any severing of a criminal past that Sinn Fein may

have, and I welcome that for the future, so it might be time to move

on, but that is only my opinion. Just one comments to go by? The

criminal past of champagne? -- Sinn Fein? A period in our history in

conflict, let us not just dismiss it as a criminal conspiracy. Let us

move on, Andrew Morrison has a question, he buys aircraft parts and

he from Londonderry. The question, he buys aircraft parts and

2013 and Scotland as an independent nation, where does that leave

Unionism? The two years into the independence debate, birders

Unionism stand here? I do not think it will happen, and when you listen

to the debate in Scotland, I am not so sure that the Scottish National

Party Billy wants independence, because they still want the Queen

and the currency and it is not for me a real question. I do not think

they will get independence, because I do not think people in Scotland

will want the vote for independence, , so for me, I do not think it will

happen. A hypothetical question not worth addressing. I think you're

hoping it will not happen. It will be enormously good for the tourism

potential, they can celebrate cultural... Berlitz leave Unionism?

Baby in a to learn. Learn what? Learn more about the colonial

situation we're living in. It is an interesting proposition, I do not

think Scotland will leave the union, I think they will opt for the

devolution max. That trend is, we will see maximum devolution in

different regions of the UK, maximum co-operation between the Republic of

Ireland and the UK, and I think we will see that within an expanding

Europe, so I do not know that even if Scotland were to leave the union,

given the kind of context in which they are talking about, which

given the kind of context in which remaining in the EU, keeping the

pound sterling, and all the rest of it, I do not think it would really

affect things here and I think given how complex our politics are, I am

happy to let the Scottish people make up their own mind in this

situation. I would get annoyed when people told us what to do in

Northern Ireland, I think we should be mature enough to make our own

choices. I am happy to let the Scottish people make their decision,

but the reality is, we will have a situation with smaller as poorer

nations with more regionally devolves power but better

cooperation between them, and that is a really good thing regardless of

whether Scotland is in or out of the union. The interesting thing about

the Scottish debate is it as been handled rationally and it is about

the economy and the economic and asserts of awe of not leaving the

union and that is what our debate asserts of awe of not leaving the

needs to be. We do not have the information coming from the Treasury

about what it means for us to leave the union, we're told that we will

get a grant and all of this, but they do not breakdown the figures.

Very Unionism, I think it means that if Scotland leaves the union, that

you can leave the union and still have British identity. That is worth

exploring in relation to how the Scottish have dealt with this

aliment of British identity in their society. It also shows that the

union can dissolve and it can dissolve peacefully and

democratically and society can move on. The other interesting element is

the rise of nationalism within England and I am not talking about

the racist nationalism that we have on the streets of England at times,

I mean the debate around English representatives about where their

identity is going and where it is going in terms of economic power.

Arlene. The difference between Scottish rationalism and

republicanism here, we did not have 40 years of violence in Scotland and

John needs to allege that. I am very happy to have the economic debate

with John because the UK is the fastest-growing developed nation in

the world and why in heaven 's name with Scotland's leave that growth

pattern that they have? It is a hypothetical question and it is a

negotiating position and they probably will give more devolution

of the back of its depending on how close the debate is, but with

regards to Northern Ireland, we are in the UK and we are into state.

Andrew? It is interesting, some dismissive views, but in the next

few years, will you a lot about this with people talking about Northern

Ireland. -- we will hear a lot. It is not down traditional party lines

as other issues would be. That is where we have to leave it this

evening. Thank you to our guests and studio audience and GUI tool for

watching and taking part. The debate continues online. From this the

team, good night.