03/11/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


03/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby are joined by Unite leader Len McCluskey, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

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Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

:00:53.:00:57.

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

:00:58.:01:01.

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

:01:02.:01:06.

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

:01:07.:01:11.

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

:01:12.:01:16.

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

:01:17.:01:17.

should be covered up. In the East Midlands: The man with

:01:18.:01:26.

one arm who claims he was asked if his other would grow back at a

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fit`for`work assessment. And will privatising the probation

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service put us all authority is investigating --

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investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

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its staff. With me as always, the best and the

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brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

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who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

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got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

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a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

:02:04.:02:07.

Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

:02:08.:02:11.

treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

:02:12.:02:15.

him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

:02:16.:02:20.

prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

:02:21.:02:24.

But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

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Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

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The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

:02:35.:02:39.

enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

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police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

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and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

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contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

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prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

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is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

:03:03.:03:07.

to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

:03:08.:03:15.

day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

:03:16.:03:20.

knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

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And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

:03:27.:03:30.

to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

:03:31.:03:35.

will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

:03:36.:03:40.

Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

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say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

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statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

:03:51.:03:56.

is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

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of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

:04:00.:04:06.

keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

:04:07.:04:11.

the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

:04:12.:04:17.

his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

:04:18.:04:20.

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

:04:21.:04:27.

Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

:04:28.:04:30.

deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

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McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

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the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

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petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

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Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

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under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

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demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

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a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

:05:07.:05:12.

the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

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to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

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deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

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as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

:05:29.:05:33.

labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

:05:34.:05:40.

of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

:05:41.:05:46.

wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

:05:47.:05:56.

McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

:05:57.:06:01.

in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion

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trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

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in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

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new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

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the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

:06:26.:06:30.

done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

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Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

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you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

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fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

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thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

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Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

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instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

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during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

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and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

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was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

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enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

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because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

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and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

:07:31.:07:35.

rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

:07:36.:07:41.

We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

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all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

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the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

:07:57.:08:01.

allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

:08:02.:08:08.

put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

:08:09.:08:13.

doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

:08:14.:08:18.

that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

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that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

:08:24.:08:28.

has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

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clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

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in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

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Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

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are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

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is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

:09:02.:09:08.

their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

:09:09.:09:16.

family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

:09:17.:09:20.

weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

:09:21.:09:27.

Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

:09:28.:09:34.

independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

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office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

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the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

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for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

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when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

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the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

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it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

:10:15.:10:18.

decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

:10:19.:10:24.

back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

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protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

:10:34.:10:37.

not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

:10:38.:10:43.

everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

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loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

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join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

:11:00.:11:06.

Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

:11:07.:11:12.

to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

:11:13.:11:16.

loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

:11:17.:11:23.

Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

:11:24.:11:29.

used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

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people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

:11:36.:11:40.

look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

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absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

:11:48.:11:50.

21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

:11:51.:11:58.

wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

:11:59.:12:03.

it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

:12:04.:12:11.

constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

:12:12.:12:20.

opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

:12:21.:12:26.

trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

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legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

:12:34.:12:38.

trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

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wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

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ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

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started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

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that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

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INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

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Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

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a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

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says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

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in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

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that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

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instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

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Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

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petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

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introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

:13:58.:14:04.

being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

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Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

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saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

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humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

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McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

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INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

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stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

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and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

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condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

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you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

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Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

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in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

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requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

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Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

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continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

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are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

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You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

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We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

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to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

:15:44.:15:48.

unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

:15:49.:15:53.

industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

:15:54.:16:01.

Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

:16:02.:16:03.

implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

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what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

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members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

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be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as

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disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

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membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

:16:39.:16:42.

executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

:16:43.:16:45.

standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

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will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

:16:52.:17:05.

by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

:17:06.:17:07.

investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

:17:08.:17:10.

anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

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words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

:17:14.:17:16.

was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

:17:17.:17:19.

words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

:17:20.:17:22.

spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

:17:23.:17:24.

wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

:17:25.:17:27.

some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

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Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

:17:31.:17:40.

First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

:17:41.:17:44.

London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

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one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

:17:51.:17:54.

frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

:17:55.:17:59.

British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

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traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

:18:04.:18:07.

to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

:18:08.:18:11.

question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

:18:12.:18:20.

address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront

:18:21.:18:24.

radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

:18:25.:18:28.

sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

:18:29.:18:38.

nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

:18:39.:18:44.

Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

:18:45.:18:48.

Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

:18:49.:18:56.

work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

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been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

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to please people but in private something very different is being

:19:14.:19:16.

said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

:19:17.:19:22.

it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

:19:23.:19:30.

radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

:19:31.:19:35.

faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

:19:36.:19:41.

rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

:19:42.:19:48.

sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

:19:49.:19:55.

and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

:19:56.:20:00.

it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

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when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

:20:06.:20:10.

talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There

:20:11.:20:14.

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

:20:15.:20:21.

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

:20:22.:20:26.

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

:20:27.:20:37.

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

:20:38.:20:53.

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

:20:54.:21:04.

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

:21:05.:21:08.

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

:21:09.:21:11.

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

:21:12.:21:16.

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

:21:17.:21:20.

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

:21:21.:21:26.

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

:21:27.:21:33.

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

:21:34.:21:39.

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

:21:40.:21:47.

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

:21:48.:21:51.

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

:21:52.:21:58.

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

:21:59.:22:03.

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

:22:04.:22:10.

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

:22:11.:22:14.

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

:22:15.:22:18.

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

:22:19.:22:27.

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

:22:28.:22:35.

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

:22:36.:22:35.

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages

:22:36.:22:40.

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

:22:41.:22:43.

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

:22:44.:22:48.

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

:22:49.:22:51.

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

:22:52.:22:56.

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

:22:57.:23:02.

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

:23:03.:23:08.

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

:23:09.:23:12.

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

:23:13.:23:17.

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

:23:18.:23:22.

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

:23:23.:23:29.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

:23:30.:23:32.

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

:23:33.:23:41.

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

:23:42.:23:48.

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

:23:49.:23:56.

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

:23:57.:23:58.

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

:23:59.:24:13.

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

:24:14.:24:15.

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

:24:16.:24:20.

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

:24:21.:24:27.

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

:24:28.:24:36.

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

:24:37.:24:40.

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

:24:41.:24:49.

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

:24:50.:24:57.

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

:24:58.:25:03.

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

:25:04.:25:09.

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

:25:10.:25:14.

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

:25:15.:25:19.

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

:25:20.:25:26.

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

:25:27.:25:29.

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

:25:30.:25:35.

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

:25:36.:25:40.

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

:25:41.:25:45.

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

:25:46.:25:50.

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

:25:51.:25:55.

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

:25:56.:26:02.

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

:26:03.:26:09.

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

:26:10.:26:14.

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

:26:15.:26:19.

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

:26:20.:26:24.

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

:26:25.:26:31.

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

:26:32.:26:34.

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

:26:35.:26:44.

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

:26:45.:26:48.

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

:26:49.:26:54.

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

:26:55.:27:00.

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

:27:01.:27:04.

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

:27:05.:27:10.

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

:27:11.:27:22.

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

:27:23.:27:30.

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

:27:31.:27:38.

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

:27:39.:27:47.

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

:27:48.:27:53.

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

:27:54.:28:04.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

:28:05.:28:10.

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

:28:11.:28:16.

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

:28:17.:28:27.

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

:28:28.:28:34.

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

:28:35.:28:38.

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

:28:39.:28:47.

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

:28:48.:28:52.

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

:28:53.:29:01.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

:29:02.:29:04.

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

:29:05.:29:13.

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

:29:14.:29:19.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

:29:20.:29:31.

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

:29:32.:29:35.

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

:29:36.:29:42.

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

:29:43.:29:46.

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

:29:47.:29:51.

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

:29:52.:29:56.

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

:29:57.:30:06.

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

:30:07.:30:14.

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

:30:15.:30:19.

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

:30:20.:30:41.

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

:30:42.:30:45.

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

:30:46.:30:51.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

:30:52.:30:58.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

:30:59.:31:06.

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

:31:07.:31:17.

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

:31:18.:31:27.

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

:31:28.:31:32.

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

:31:33.:31:38.

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

:31:39.:31:44.

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

:31:45.:31:51.

of common issues to create a community which positively

:31:52.:31:59.

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

:32:00.:32:06.

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

:32:07.:32:09.

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

:32:10.:32:18.

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

:32:19.:32:27.

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

:32:28.:32:37.

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

:32:38.:32:43.

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

:32:44.:32:49.

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

:32:50.:32:55.

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

:32:56.:33:04.

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

:33:05.:33:13.

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

:33:14.:33:18.

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

:33:19.:33:25.

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

:33:26.:33:42.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

:33:43.:33:54.

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

:33:55.:34:00.

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

:34:01.:34:05.

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

:34:06.:34:12.

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

:34:13.:34:19.

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's

:34:20.:34:23.

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

:34:24.:34:31.

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

:34:32.:34:39.

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

:34:40.:34:46.

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

:34:47.:34:57.

or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media

:34:58.:35:06.

mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself

:35:07.:35:12.

from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration

:35:13.:35:20.

because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign

:35:21.:35:29.

it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the

:35:30.:35:35.

declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there

:35:36.:35:45.

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

:35:46.:35:52.

what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the

:35:53.:35:56.

yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The

:35:57.:36:06.

East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with

:36:07.:36:09.

is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused

:36:10.:36:21.

extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and

:36:22.:36:26.

presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an

:36:27.:36:31.

Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and

:36:32.:36:35.

Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.

:36:36.:36:40.

Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask

:36:41.:36:49.

with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with

:36:50.:36:53.

any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue

:36:54.:36:59.

guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its

:37:00.:37:04.

own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of

:37:05.:37:08.

organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the

:37:09.:37:14.

facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted

:37:15.:37:27.

suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you

:37:28.:37:32.

share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.

:37:33.:37:36.

Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you

:37:37.:37:44.

agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add

:37:45.:37:53.

all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most

:37:54.:37:59.

fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a

:38:00.:38:03.

willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of

:38:04.:38:08.

goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good

:38:09.:38:17.

force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations

:38:18.:38:24.

which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets

:38:25.:38:29.

of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.

:38:30.:38:34.

It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have

:38:35.:38:39.

highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and

:38:40.:38:47.

is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will

:38:48.:38:52.

have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

:38:53.:38:54.

up: I will be talking to joke In the East Midlands, fears for our

:38:55.:39:12.

safety of a privatisation from the people charged with looking after

:39:13.:39:16.

offenders released from jail. I don't want people to be scared but

:39:17.:39:19.

what I do want is for them to treat the issues that we have raised with

:39:20.:39:25.

utmost concern. And the Derbyshire man born with one arm who claims he

:39:26.:39:28.

was asked if his other one was likely to grow back at a hearing to

:39:29.:39:33.

see if he was fit for work. We looked at each other and said, were

:39:34.:39:38.

you being realistic here? I was born like it so it will not grow back. I

:39:39.:39:44.

am Mary Ashby and joining me in the studio this week, two Derbyshire

:39:45.:39:50.

MPs, Pauline Latham and Toby Perkins. Let's start with the latest

:39:51.:39:58.

on HS2 after MPs voted to pave the way for work to begin. A bill was

:39:59.:40:04.

approved by 350 votes to 34 to allow the Government to spend money on

:40:05.:40:08.

beginning preparations on the line. For some it is a shining vision of

:40:09.:40:11.

the future which will whisk us to London in less than one hour but for

:40:12.:40:16.

others it is a white elephant ruin in the countryside and gobbling up

:40:17.:40:21.

cash. But does this vote mean the arguments are finally over and the

:40:22.:40:24.

battle has been won or lost? Pauline, is it all over? No, they

:40:25.:40:30.

will be quite a few more right units because the bill will take about for

:40:31.:40:33.

five years to go through. It is a very, very complex bill and that

:40:34.:40:38.

will take time to get through Parliament. I think they will

:40:39.:40:39.

continue to be Parliament. I think they will

:40:40.:40:41.

continue quite a few arguments but I hope at the end of the day that they

:40:42.:40:47.

will get it through. Labour are still wobbly on this, how did you

:40:48.:40:52.

vote? I did not actually vote in the debate on Thursday because it was a

:40:53.:40:59.

one line whip and it was only about giving the Government permission to

:41:00.:41:02.

study in preparation work towards it rather than building it that we were

:41:03.:41:05.

supporting that as a party but the majority of Labour MPs were doing

:41:06.:41:13.

other things. I think that it is a potentially important development

:41:14.:41:16.

for our area but we need to rebuild confidence, in the sense that costs

:41:17.:41:21.

are running out of control and that is quite worrying. All of us need a

:41:22.:41:29.

sense of a government that can get a control of the cost and tell us how

:41:30.:41:33.

much it'll cost. So you still need reassuring? I think people do

:41:34.:41:37.

because we were originally talking about ?35 billion and already there

:41:38.:41:43.

is talk now that it is 50 billion. We haven't even laid a single`track

:41:44.:41:49.

yet. Our position is that we support HS2 in principle but not at any

:41:50.:41:54.

cost. Will there be more reassurances that? I think there

:41:55.:41:58.

will because we are talking about a long time in advance, we are talking

:41:59.:42:03.

about 20 years in advance and I think if we didn't go ahead with it

:42:04.:42:08.

and we had that attitude when the Victorians did the original railway,

:42:09.:42:11.

we would never have had any infrastructure in this country

:42:12.:42:14.

anyway. But this will be the next big leap in rail travel. Andrew

:42:15.:42:27.

Bridgen in a nearby constituency... They must reflect their constituents

:42:28.:42:35.

views but we will go ahead and work on that and hopefully people will be

:42:36.:42:39.

much happier. Plenty more debate to come on HS2. Onto the plans to

:42:40.:42:42.

privatise parts of the probation service, the Government wants to

:42:43.:42:47.

bring charities in to take over low and medium risk offenders with the

:42:48.:42:50.

probation service looking after high risk people. This week, the heads of

:42:51.:42:55.

the Derbyshire and Leicestershire probation trusts say the Government

:42:56.:42:59.

should wait for more research before introducing the changes and next

:43:00.:43:01.

week, probation officers will strike over the plans. We have been to

:43:02.:43:08.

Leicester to hear their concerns. Probation officers here are so

:43:09.:43:13.

concerned about plans for privatisation that they are

:43:14.:43:16.

threatening strike action. They want justice secretary Chris Grayling to

:43:17.:43:22.

delay plans for changes. The bottom line here is that we are being

:43:23.:43:26.

privatised in order that Chris Grayling can line the pockets of his

:43:27.:43:31.

friends and you will make an immoral profit. These private companies are

:43:32.:43:35.

not in it for public detection, they are in it to make a profit and that

:43:36.:43:38.

is something that does not sit right with me or my colleagues. You are

:43:39.:43:45.

worried about the speed of these changes? He has been told that these

:43:46.:43:50.

plans compromise the future of the management of offenders in this

:43:51.:43:54.

country and therefore public safety. He understands that that is

:43:55.:43:57.

the case but he chooses to ignore that advice. We have come to a point

:43:58.:44:01.

where we feel we are not being head and this is the only way forward.

:44:02.:44:05.

Are we seriously concerned about issues of public detection? That

:44:06.:44:10.

scares people, I do not want people to be scared but what I do want is

:44:11.:44:14.

for them to treat the issues that we have raised with an most concern.

:44:15.:44:20.

Because this is a very serious issue.

:44:21.:44:22.

Probation workers in Leicester telling us why they are so concerned

:44:23.:44:25.

that the Government insists the plans will reform a system that has

:44:26.:44:29.

been failing for years. The issue was debated in the Commons this

:44:30.:44:32.

week, the justice secretary told the house that the reforms were viable

:44:33.:44:38.

to reform die figures on the number of re`offenders.

:44:39.:44:42.

Crime in Britain is falling which is good but there are fewer first`time

:44:43.:44:45.

criminals out there which is also good but increasingly, crime in

:44:46.:44:50.

Britain today is being committed by people who have offended before. Who

:44:51.:44:53.

are going round and round the system. Reoffending to date has

:44:54.:44:58.

barely changed in a decade, it has risen again in the last year and it

:44:59.:45:03.

is the highest `` as high as it was five years ago when the reforms were

:45:04.:45:07.

put in place. Yesterday we released statistics which paint a grim

:45:08.:45:11.

picture of reoffending. Joining us to discuss that is Jane Loffhagen

:45:12.:45:21.

from the Lincolnshire National Association of Probation Officers.

:45:22.:45:25.

Reoffending figures have barely changed. They always highlight this

:45:26.:45:29.

issue of reoffending but the group of offenders they are referring to

:45:30.:45:33.

our prisoners serving under 12 months. And they introduced this

:45:34.:45:38.

whole programme on the basis that this reticular group of offenders

:45:39.:45:41.

were reoffending highly and that is true but that is the only group

:45:42.:45:46.

within the probation service does not work `` this particular group.

:45:47.:45:50.

It is not an argument for changing the probation service, it is for

:45:51.:45:54.

changing the law so that short`term prisoners are subject to licenses.

:45:55.:45:56.

We work with former offenders released from prison efficiently and

:45:57.:46:05.

probation services are high performing public services, it goes

:46:06.:46:07.

under the radar, not many people know what we do but against all the

:46:08.:46:11.

Government's and standards, we are very high performing services. What

:46:12.:46:18.

are your main concern is? Your union sounds alarmist about it. It is

:46:19.:46:22.

really serious and we do not want to be alarmist but the way it works at

:46:23.:46:26.

the moment, people are subject to quite a comprehensive and work

:46:27.:46:30.

intensive risk assessment programme and all kinds of risk are assessed

:46:31.:46:36.

so you do not get people who are medium or low or high risk because

:46:37.:46:41.

there are four or five different aspects of risk to assess and what

:46:42.:46:45.

you have come up with an assessment of that, that changes because it is

:46:46.:46:50.

dependent on whether they are using substances, whether they are mental

:46:51.:46:54.

health treatment, with their relationships are broken down,

:46:55.:46:58.

whether they have family support, if they are subject to restrictions on

:46:59.:47:00.

their licenses all their orders. We will often change these through all

:47:01.:47:06.

these are the true factors during the programme. You spoke during the

:47:07.:47:10.

debate, what are your concerns about this? Whether these reforms will

:47:11.:47:16.

work or not is entirely unproven. The probation service, as Jane was

:47:17.:47:22.

saying, has got every single trust which is either good or outstanding

:47:23.:47:27.

and the minister was unable to explain to us in the debate on

:47:28.:47:33.

Wednesday why the desire to extend probation services to those shorter

:47:34.:47:37.

sentences have to coincide with privatisation, why not go with the

:47:38.:47:41.

probation service to have that extension? And if you're going to go

:47:42.:47:45.

for this huge change which is potentially serious, why not have

:47:46.:47:50.

pilots would show if it works? When Chris Grayling got the job, he

:47:51.:47:54.

cancelled the pilots but then introduced the policy which seems

:47:55.:47:58.

crazy. What is the rush with all this, Pauline? Because it has not

:47:59.:48:02.

been working with the low`grade offenders and they will not be

:48:03.:48:04.

dealing with the high`grade offenders, they will still be dealt

:48:05.:48:08.

with by the probation service we are looking at the grade offenders that

:48:09.:48:12.

this is not working with so we need to make it work. Because people out

:48:13.:48:15.

there do not want people to come out of prison and reoffend and cause

:48:16.:48:20.

them problems and it is a problem to the general public. If you are

:48:21.:48:27.

talking about the lowest grade offenders, they do not work with the

:48:28.:48:30.

probation service at all. Within the remit, we only start with people who

:48:31.:48:37.

need intervention. So we need people to stop reoffending, the public do

:48:38.:48:42.

not want people to keep reoffending, they want them sorting out and that

:48:43.:48:48.

is what this will do. The unions are asking for a delay, not to scrap the

:48:49.:48:53.

whole plan. It is against hybridisation of a public service

:48:54.:48:59.

because `` privatisation of a public service and we are dedicated public

:49:00.:49:03.

servants and these programmes for low risk. If the service is

:49:04.:49:07.

privatised and there is a primary agenda which takes over from that,

:49:08.:49:11.

then services will follow where the money is. For instance, it will be

:49:12.:49:14.

much easier to get your payment by results with the very lowest grade

:49:15.:49:17.

offenders who are unlikely to reoffend anyway. Which part are you

:49:18.:49:23.

worried about? We are worried about all of it. It is a high achieving

:49:24.:49:27.

service and it is reducing reoffending, and Pauline is right,

:49:28.:49:31.

people want it to be reduced but there is not a magic fix, it is a

:49:32.:49:35.

painstaking, complicated and difficult process. And the lowest

:49:36.:49:37.

grade offenders that Pauline is talking about do not include minor

:49:38.:49:46.

offenders. Why such radical reform? We need to change it and get it

:49:47.:49:50.

right. The public expect us to get it right and we need to get on with

:49:51.:49:53.

it. The more we delay everything, the less chance we have that its

:49:54.:50:01.

will be quick. Are you listening to concerns, for example the head of

:50:02.:50:05.

the Derbyshire Probation Trust is saying there could be more

:50:06.:50:07.

preventable attacks and deaths, they are not mincing their words. They

:50:08.:50:16.

will not be dealt with by anybody else other than the probation

:50:17.:50:19.

service. The important thing is that the people who will stay with this

:50:20.:50:23.

new National probation service will be those at high risk of causing

:50:24.:50:27.

harm but medium grade offenders, serial thieves, people have been in

:50:28.:50:32.

jail several times will be people who will disappear from this. A high

:50:33.:50:38.

performing authority will completely disappear and many kinds of work

:50:39.:50:42.

that they do, particularly in rural communities, will cease to happen.

:50:43.:50:46.

There is a categorisation and whenever someone who is subject

:50:47.:50:50.

ditty that commits a serious offence again, there is an enquiry and most

:50:51.:50:55.

serious further offences come from low and medium risk offenders and

:50:56.:50:57.

medium risk offenders and these are the people who will be subject to

:50:58.:51:00.

supervision by the private sector. These are people we will not be able

:51:01.:51:07.

to monitor. Not necessarily. Why make the changes before the pilot?

:51:08.:51:12.

They will be people who will go into these new services so that the

:51:13.:51:15.

expertise will not be lost to the system, it will be just a different

:51:16.:51:18.

way of doing it and sometimes you have to stop, look at their system

:51:19.:51:23.

and decide that maybe there is a better way of doing it. I accept

:51:24.:51:26.

that the probation service is a good one but I think sometimes you need

:51:27.:51:30.

to reassess and look again and say, can we do it a better way? Why would

:51:31.:51:38.

people die? Let me give you an example, if somebody is being

:51:39.:51:42.

released from prison from opening conditions, somebody serving a long

:51:43.:51:46.

prison sentence, they cannot be put into open conditions until they are

:51:47.:51:49.

medium risk and then they get released at medium risk and they

:51:50.:51:53.

would be the kind of person who would go into the private sector.

:51:54.:52:01.

Why would it kill somebody? People on my sentences would come into that

:52:02.:52:07.

group, they are not released until they are medium. Is striking the

:52:08.:52:14.

answer? Striking is a desperate measure so that people understand

:52:15.:52:23.

the desperate measure that public servants are faced with. There are

:52:24.:52:29.

growing calls in East Midlands to hold fitness to work assessments by

:52:30.:52:34.

the contractor, Atos. We spoke to one Derbyshire man with an

:52:35.:52:38.

incredible story, born with one arm and claims he was asked if his other

:52:39.:52:42.

arm would grow back at his assessment. Atos deny the claims but

:52:43.:52:46.

it has raised an issue of assessments and whether they should

:52:47.:52:51.

be scrapped. Gary Swift lives alone in North

:52:52.:52:54.

Derbyshire, he has been in work in the past but now struggles to find

:52:55.:52:59.

an employer willing to take him on. They tried to get me to lift boxes

:53:00.:53:04.

out of the storeroom. He was born with one arm, and it makes lifting

:53:05.:53:10.

objects and other tasks difficult. His disability has also led him to

:53:11.:53:16.

be bullied at work. You would like to work as a driver but has not been

:53:17.:53:21.

able to get a break. I get rejected from all the tribunal 's. They say

:53:22.:53:26.

that I can work, I am not disabled but I cannot wait because I keep

:53:27.:53:30.

getting rejected, it is like a never ending circle. He was told to take

:53:31.:53:35.

an assessment but was surprised by the questions he faced.

:53:36.:53:42.

What did Atos Askew? Date asked me if my arm would grow back `` ask

:53:43.:53:49.

you. I looked at them to say, are you being realistic? I was born like

:53:50.:53:54.

this. It will not grow back. A local charity says arm's case is not

:53:55.:54:06.

uncommon. There are documented cases `` Garry's case. People have not

:54:07.:54:11.

been treated with dignity. It is designed to rush people through.

:54:12.:54:17.

People like Garry get training to help them find work but in his case,

:54:18.:54:22.

it was not suited to his needs. They send you out in the countryside,

:54:23.:54:27.

putting kissing gates up and basically you have to dig a hole.

:54:28.:54:33.

For a post to go in. I was stood next to everybody for 13 weeks

:54:34.:54:40.

because I can't dig. Atos is keen to point out that it only advises the

:54:41.:54:43.

Government of people's capability but it is the Department for Work

:54:44.:54:48.

and Pensions that ultimately makes the decision. That department says:

:54:49.:55:03.

The previous government appointed Atos and we're bringing on board

:55:04.:55:10.

additional providers. With complaints about Atos getting

:55:11.:55:12.

louder in the East Midlands, there are more people like Garry waiting

:55:13.:55:17.

to see if the process will be fixed any time soon.

:55:18.:55:21.

We did ask Atos to join our discussion that they told us no one

:55:22.:55:24.

was available and in a statement they refuted his claim categorically

:55:25.:55:29.

insisting that their staff were highly trained professionals and

:55:30.:55:32.

would not have asked a question like that. One would hope so. There is no

:55:33.:55:38.

denying that this is causing a lot of stress. Garry clearly feels the

:55:39.:55:42.

system is not helping him. He has clearly been put on the wrong work

:55:43.:55:46.

experience to find out. He cannot dig, it is a sad case that he has

:55:47.:55:51.

had this awful situation thrust upon him but I don't think he is

:55:52.:55:57.

unemployable. There are jobs he could do and for the majority of

:55:58.:56:00.

people who are disabled, if they can work, it is better for them. Many

:56:01.:56:08.

want to. Yes, and there are some ` and I am not saying that he does not

:56:09.:56:12.

want to work, clearly he wants to work and it would be good for him

:56:13.:56:15.

but the support he was given was wrong and we must get it right. But

:56:16.:56:18.

things are being changed all the time, the system is getting better.

:56:19.:56:24.

You think you're getting this right? We are, they will still be people

:56:25.:56:27.

who slip through, there always will be with any system but it is getting

:56:28.:56:30.

better than it was when was first starting and it has got thousands of

:56:31.:56:36.

people into work who were thinking they were disabled and could not

:56:37.:56:42.

work. Dennis Skinner, the Labour MP for Bolsover described Atos in the

:56:43.:56:45.

Commons as a cruel, heartless monster. Do you agree? The way the

:56:46.:56:52.

system is working is really cruel, but also utterly incompetent.

:56:53.:56:59.

Stories like this, arm's, every single week my surgery I will see

:57:00.:57:06.

who has been wrongly classified `` Garry's. Somebody whose life was

:57:07.:57:09.

wrecked in a car crash but the car crash was the start of the problems,

:57:10.:57:13.

he got into the Atos system, went through the tribunal and the

:57:14.:57:21.

tribunal found him nowhere near fit to work, and within six weeks are

:57:22.:57:25.

going through all this process, the whole thing is starting again and he

:57:26.:57:28.

will be assessed again. And it costs more money, Pauline. It is better

:57:29.:57:35.

for people to be in work than on benefits, that is proven and they

:57:36.:57:39.

want to work. Of course they will be people who cannot work and we should

:57:40.:57:42.

be looking after them and we should be making sure that there

:57:43.:57:47.

assessments are fair that they can appeal and they can ask for it to be

:57:48.:57:52.

redone and that is what people need to do. But they don't want to, I

:57:53.:57:56.

know it is an option but who would want to go through that? Of course

:57:57.:58:00.

you don't want to but if you are claiming public money, I think you

:58:01.:58:04.

have to until the situation has been clarified. And clearly, that

:58:05.:58:08.

gentleman cannot do a digging job, that is obvious. He said he wanted

:58:09.:58:13.

to do a driving job, that may not be an option but there are other jobs

:58:14.:58:17.

out there and he could have training to get another job. While Labour

:58:18.:58:25.

making such a fuss about this now? `` why are Labour making such. What

:58:26.:58:34.

we have is a really adversarial DWP led by the incompetent but heartless

:58:35.:58:41.

Iain Duncan Smith who is driving people mad. We have had two people

:58:42.:58:47.

in Chesterfield found fit for work and they died of their conditions.

:58:48.:58:51.

People that have got serious mental health problems, doctors saying that

:58:52.:58:57.

they are making people more ill by going through this. Iain Duncan

:58:58.:59:04.

Smith is not heartless, he cares because he knows it is better for

:59:05.:59:08.

people to be in work. That is why he has gone through all this process

:59:09.:59:11.

and he spent years trying to perfect it before he was in government,

:59:12.:59:16.

before he was the Secretary of State. And he has done it to the

:59:17.:59:21.

best of his ability and most of it... It is not all working but no

:59:22.:59:27.

system is perfect. Is this not a sign that it is not going very well?

:59:28.:59:33.

It is working for most of the people most of the time. There will always

:59:34.:59:38.

be cases and I have heard that case about Garry, it is a well`known case

:59:39.:59:42.

and it is ridiculous and he needs to be reassessed and he should ask for

:59:43.:59:47.

a reassessment. 75% of people who have appeal when their appeal. It is

:59:48.:59:53.

costing a fortune but it is putting people through terrible stress. We

:59:54.:59:56.

want to see people being supported and we recognise the small number of

:59:57.:00:00.

people who do not want to work but this system is not working and if

:00:01.:00:03.

this government has got any heart about it, it should reassess the

:00:04.:00:08.

system totally and get it done to get it working properly. It is

:00:09.:00:11.

broken. But the heart is there because they are trying to get

:00:12.:00:14.

people into work and give them the training and that is a good thing.

:00:15.:00:20.

It is not working. Time now for a round`up of the other political

:00:21.:00:22.

stories here in the East Midlands, he was our political editor.

:00:23.:00:28.

Council workers in Nottinghamshire are bracing themselves for more

:00:29.:00:34.

budget cuts, the county council will unveil its plans to cut ?134 million

:00:35.:00:39.

on Tuesday. It is expected they could be large`scale redundancies

:00:40.:00:43.

and services will be reduced or close down entirely. The council

:00:44.:00:48.

admits the details will be grim. Conservatives in Leicester have

:00:49.:00:50.

welcomed the Government's introduction of the first Islamic

:00:51.:00:54.

bond outside the non`Muslim world. The new Bond complies with sharia

:00:55.:00:57.

law of the Leicester Conservative Association says it gives the UK

:00:58.:01:03.

access to billions of pounds of investment.

:01:04.:01:04.

Neighbourhood watch organisations are keeping their eyes out on our

:01:05.:01:08.

new police and crime Commissioners, they are being asked for their views

:01:09.:01:13.

on what impact the elected VCCs are having.

:01:14.:01:16.

A big merger is under way in the business community, the

:01:17.:01:18.

Leicestershire Chamber of Commerce and the Nottinghamshire and

:01:19.:01:21.

Derbyshire chamber are planning to join forces across the East

:01:22.:01:24.

Midlands. Of the greater Manchester, it will be the biggest chamber in

:01:25.:01:27.

Britain. `` after greater Manchester.

:01:28.:01:35.

On next week's programme, the first anniversary of the police and crime

:01:36.:01:38.

Commissioners, we will find out how they are doing and ask from some of

:01:39.:01:45.

our PCCs and ask the the announcement by Nottinghamshire

:01:46.:01:48.

County Council and you can follow all the details on our blog. That's

:01:49.:01:53.

the Sunday politics here in the East Midlands. Back to Andrew, thank you

:01:54.:01:55.

very much to our guests. confident we will deliver that.

:01:56.:02:00.

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

:02:01.:02:16.

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

:02:17.:02:29.

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

:02:30.:02:33.

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

:02:34.:02:36.

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

:02:37.:02:39.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

:02:40.:02:43.

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

:02:44.:02:47.

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

:02:48.:02:52.

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

:02:53.:02:56.

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

:02:57.:03:02.

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

:03:03.:03:09.

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

:03:10.:03:13.

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

:03:14.:03:19.

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

:03:20.:03:22.

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

:03:23.:03:27.

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

:03:28.:03:31.

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

:03:32.:03:38.

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

:03:39.:03:42.

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

:03:43.:03:48.

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

:03:49.:03:56.

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

:03:57.:04:08.

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

:04:09.:04:13.

something that the police are looking into so that is not

:04:14.:04:15.

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

:04:16.:04:27.

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

:04:28.:04:31.

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

:04:32.:04:36.

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

:04:37.:04:47.

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

:04:48.:04:49.

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

:04:50.:04:54.

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

:04:55.:04:57.

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed

:04:58.:05:03.

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

:05:04.:05:09.

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

:05:10.:05:15.

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

:05:16.:05:18.

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

:05:19.:05:25.

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

:05:26.:05:30.

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

:05:31.:05:35.

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

:05:36.:05:40.

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

:05:41.:05:45.

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

:05:46.:05:50.

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

:05:51.:05:55.

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

:05:56.:06:00.

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

:06:01.:06:03.

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

:06:04.:06:07.

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

:06:08.:06:12.

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

:06:13.:06:19.

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

:06:20.:06:28.

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

:06:29.:06:33.

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

:06:34.:06:42.

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

:06:43.:06:49.

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

:06:50.:06:52.

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

:06:53.:06:58.

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

:06:59.:07:04.

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

:07:05.:07:11.

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

:07:12.:07:16.

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

:07:17.:07:20.

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

:07:21.:07:28.

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

:07:29.:07:36.

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

:07:37.:07:41.

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

:07:42.:07:48.

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

:07:49.:07:56.

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

:07:57.:08:01.

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

:08:02.:08:06.

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

:08:07.:08:15.

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

:08:16.:08:20.

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

:08:21.:08:27.

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

:08:28.:08:31.

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

:08:32.:08:36.

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

:08:37.:08:43.

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

:08:44.:08:47.

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

:08:48.:08:52.

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

:08:53.:08:58.

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

:08:59.:09:03.

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

:09:04.:09:08.

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

:09:09.:09:13.

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

:09:14.:09:19.

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

:09:20.:09:23.

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

:09:24.:09:30.

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

:09:31.:09:38.

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

:09:39.:09:42.

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

:09:43.:09:48.

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

:09:49.:09:54.

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

:09:55.:09:59.

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

:10:00.:10:06.

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

:10:07.:10:10.

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

:10:11.:10:18.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

:10:19.:10:22.

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

:10:23.:10:26.

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

:10:27.:10:31.

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

:10:32.:10:37.

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

:10:38.:10:45.

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.

:10:46.:10:48.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

:10:49.:10:54.

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

:10:55.:10:59.

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

:11:00.:11:05.

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

:11:06.:11:10.

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

:11:11.:11:18.

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

:11:19.:11:24.

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

:11:25.:11:29.

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

:11:30.:11:34.

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

:11:35.:11:41.

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

:11:42.:11:47.

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

:11:48.:11:52.

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

:11:53.:12:00.

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

:12:01.:12:11.

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

:12:12.:12:15.

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

:12:16.:12:23.

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

:12:24.:12:37.

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

:12:38.:12:44.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

:12:45.:12:49.

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

:12:50.:12:56.

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

:12:57.:13:01.

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

:13:02.:13:05.

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

:13:06.:13:16.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

:13:17.:13:24.

here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at

:13:25.:13:29.

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:30.:13:58.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

:13:59.:14:03.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

:14:04.:14:11.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

:14:12.:14:14.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

:14:15.:14:17.

Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?

:14:18.:14:20.

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.

:14:21.:14:24.

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