Browse content similar to 03/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as | :00:39. | :00:52. | |
Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
should be covered up. In the East Midlands: The man with | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
one arm who claims he was asked if his other would grow back at a | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
fit`for`work assessment. And will privatising the probation | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
service put us all authority is investigating -- | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
its staff. With me as always, the best and the | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates. | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting. | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee. | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me. | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len | :05:47. | :05:56. | |
McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
because the people who originally complained changed their evidence | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true. | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They | :08:29. | :08:37. | |
clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important. | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail, | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had | :10:44. | :10:52. | |
loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your | :12:12. | :12:20. | |
opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager, | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len | :14:19. | :14:27. | |
McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights. | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights. | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My | :16:25. | :16:38. | |
membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us | :16:52. | :17:05. | |
by the media. "A country ready to welcome your | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
investment which values your friendship and will never exclude | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. | :17:31. | :17:40. | |
First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain, | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
British Muslim community. There are so many different sects, | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to | :18:12. | :18:20. | |
address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not | :18:29. | :18:38. | |
nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this | :18:49. | :18:56. | |
work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public | :19:04. | :19:13. | |
to please people but in private something very different is being | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people, | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain, | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of | :20:27. | :20:37. | |
minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public | :20:38. | :20:53. | |
places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy | :20:54. | :21:04. | |
of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are | :22:36. | :22:35. | |
experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
big cultural gap will exist between the two. | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting | :23:57. | :23:58. | |
themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst | :23:59. | :24:13. | |
wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life | :24:14. | :24:15. | |
successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point | :24:28. | :24:36. | |
of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture, | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any | :26:35. | :26:44. | |
Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires | :27:11. | :27:22. | |
children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a | :27:39. | :27:47. | |
black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females. | :27:54. | :28:04. | |
I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some | :28:17. | :28:27. | |
muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic | :28:39. | :28:47. | |
girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables. | :28:53. | :29:01. | |
But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I | :29:05. | :29:13. | |
am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers. | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
There is a very conservative movement from the continent on | :29:20. | :29:31. | |
Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree | :29:57. | :30:06. | |
with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you | :30:20. | :30:41. | |
agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied. | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised. | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your | :31:07. | :31:17. | |
counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they | :31:18. | :31:27. | |
have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
of common issues to create a community which positively | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall | :32:19. | :32:27. | |
under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British | :32:28. | :32:37. | |
mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them? | :32:56. | :33:04. | |
Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council | :33:05. | :33:13. | |
have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country. | :33:26. | :33:42. | |
That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we | :33:43. | :33:54. | |
live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it | :34:47. | :34:57. | |
or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign | :35:21. | :35:29. | |
it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there | :35:36. | :35:45. | |
was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The | :35:57. | :36:06. | |
East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused | :36:10. | :36:21. | |
extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there. | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask | :36:41. | :36:49. | |
with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted | :37:15. | :37:27. | |
suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that. | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add | :37:45. | :37:53. | |
all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good | :38:09. | :38:17. | |
force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates. | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and | :38:40. | :38:47. | |
is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
up: I will be talking to joke In the East Midlands, fears for our | :38:55. | :39:12. | |
safety of a privatisation from the people charged with looking after | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
offenders released from jail. I don't want people to be scared but | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
what I do want is for them to treat the issues that we have raised with | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
utmost concern. And the Derbyshire man born with one arm who claims he | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
was asked if his other one was likely to grow back at a hearing to | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
see if he was fit for work. We looked at each other and said, were | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
you being realistic here? I was born like it so it will not grow back. I | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
am Mary Ashby and joining me in the studio this week, two Derbyshire | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
MPs, Pauline Latham and Toby Perkins. Let's start with the latest | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
on HS2 after MPs voted to pave the way for work to begin. A bill was | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
approved by 350 votes to 34 to allow the Government to spend money on | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
beginning preparations on the line. For some it is a shining vision of | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
the future which will whisk us to London in less than one hour but for | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
others it is a white elephant ruin in the countryside and gobbling up | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
cash. But does this vote mean the arguments are finally over and the | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
battle has been won or lost? Pauline, is it all over? No, they | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
will be quite a few more right units because the bill will take about for | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
five years to go through. It is a very, very complex bill and that | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
will take time to get through Parliament. I think they will | :40:39. | :40:39. | |
continue to be Parliament. I think they will | :40:40. | :40:41. | |
continue quite a few arguments but I hope at the end of the day that they | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
will get it through. Labour are still wobbly on this, how did you | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
vote? I did not actually vote in the debate on Thursday because it was a | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
one line whip and it was only about giving the Government permission to | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
study in preparation work towards it rather than building it that we were | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
supporting that as a party but the majority of Labour MPs were doing | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
other things. I think that it is a potentially important development | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
for our area but we need to rebuild confidence, in the sense that costs | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
are running out of control and that is quite worrying. All of us need a | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
sense of a government that can get a control of the cost and tell us how | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
much it'll cost. So you still need reassuring? I think people do | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
because we were originally talking about ?35 billion and already there | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
is talk now that it is 50 billion. We haven't even laid a single`track | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
yet. Our position is that we support HS2 in principle but not at any | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
cost. Will there be more reassurances that? I think there | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
will because we are talking about a long time in advance, we are talking | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
about 20 years in advance and I think if we didn't go ahead with it | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
and we had that attitude when the Victorians did the original railway, | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
we would never have had any infrastructure in this country | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
anyway. But this will be the next big leap in rail travel. Andrew | :42:15. | :42:27. | |
Bridgen in a nearby constituency... They must reflect their constituents | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
views but we will go ahead and work on that and hopefully people will be | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
much happier. Plenty more debate to come on HS2. Onto the plans to | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
privatise parts of the probation service, the Government wants to | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
bring charities in to take over low and medium risk offenders with the | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
probation service looking after high risk people. This week, the heads of | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
the Derbyshire and Leicestershire probation trusts say the Government | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
should wait for more research before introducing the changes and next | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
week, probation officers will strike over the plans. We have been to | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
Leicester to hear their concerns. Probation officers here are so | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
concerned about plans for privatisation that they are | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
threatening strike action. They want justice secretary Chris Grayling to | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
delay plans for changes. The bottom line here is that we are being | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
privatised in order that Chris Grayling can line the pockets of his | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
friends and you will make an immoral profit. These private companies are | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
not in it for public detection, they are in it to make a profit and that | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
is something that does not sit right with me or my colleagues. You are | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
worried about the speed of these changes? He has been told that these | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
plans compromise the future of the management of offenders in this | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
country and therefore public safety. He understands that that is | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
the case but he chooses to ignore that advice. We have come to a point | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
where we feel we are not being head and this is the only way forward. | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
Are we seriously concerned about issues of public detection? That | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
scares people, I do not want people to be scared but what I do want is | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
for them to treat the issues that we have raised with an most concern. | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
Because this is a very serious issue. | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
Probation workers in Leicester telling us why they are so concerned | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
that the Government insists the plans will reform a system that has | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
been failing for years. The issue was debated in the Commons this | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
week, the justice secretary told the house that the reforms were viable | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
to reform die figures on the number of re`offenders. | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Crime in Britain is falling which is good but there are fewer first`time | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
criminals out there which is also good but increasingly, crime in | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
Britain today is being committed by people who have offended before. Who | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
are going round and round the system. Reoffending to date has | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
barely changed in a decade, it has risen again in the last year and it | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
is the highest `` as high as it was five years ago when the reforms were | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
put in place. Yesterday we released statistics which paint a grim | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
picture of reoffending. Joining us to discuss that is Jane Loffhagen | :45:12. | :45:21. | |
from the Lincolnshire National Association of Probation Officers. | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
Reoffending figures have barely changed. They always highlight this | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
issue of reoffending but the group of offenders they are referring to | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
our prisoners serving under 12 months. And they introduced this | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
whole programme on the basis that this reticular group of offenders | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
were reoffending highly and that is true but that is the only group | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
within the probation service does not work `` this particular group. | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
It is not an argument for changing the probation service, it is for | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
changing the law so that short`term prisoners are subject to licenses. | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
We work with former offenders released from prison efficiently and | :45:57. | :46:05. | |
probation services are high performing public services, it goes | :46:06. | :46:07. | |
under the radar, not many people know what we do but against all the | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
Government's and standards, we are very high performing services. What | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
are your main concern is? Your union sounds alarmist about it. It is | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
really serious and we do not want to be alarmist but the way it works at | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
the moment, people are subject to quite a comprehensive and work | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
intensive risk assessment programme and all kinds of risk are assessed | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
so you do not get people who are medium or low or high risk because | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
there are four or five different aspects of risk to assess and what | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
you have come up with an assessment of that, that changes because it is | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
dependent on whether they are using substances, whether they are mental | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
health treatment, with their relationships are broken down, | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
whether they have family support, if they are subject to restrictions on | :46:59. | :47:00. | |
their licenses all their orders. We will often change these through all | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
these are the true factors during the programme. You spoke during the | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
debate, what are your concerns about this? Whether these reforms will | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
work or not is entirely unproven. The probation service, as Jane was | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
saying, has got every single trust which is either good or outstanding | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
and the minister was unable to explain to us in the debate on | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
Wednesday why the desire to extend probation services to those shorter | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
sentences have to coincide with privatisation, why not go with the | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
probation service to have that extension? And if you're going to go | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
for this huge change which is potentially serious, why not have | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
pilots would show if it works? When Chris Grayling got the job, he | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
cancelled the pilots but then introduced the policy which seems | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
crazy. What is the rush with all this, Pauline? Because it has not | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
been working with the low`grade offenders and they will not be | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
dealing with the high`grade offenders, they will still be dealt | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
with by the probation service we are looking at the grade offenders that | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
this is not working with so we need to make it work. Because people out | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
there do not want people to come out of prison and reoffend and cause | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
them problems and it is a problem to the general public. If you are | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
talking about the lowest grade offenders, they do not work with the | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
probation service at all. Within the remit, we only start with people who | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
need intervention. So we need people to stop reoffending, the public do | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
not want people to keep reoffending, they want them sorting out and that | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
is what this will do. The unions are asking for a delay, not to scrap the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
whole plan. It is against hybridisation of a public service | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
because `` privatisation of a public service and we are dedicated public | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
servants and these programmes for low risk. If the service is | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
privatised and there is a primary agenda which takes over from that, | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
then services will follow where the money is. For instance, it will be | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
much easier to get your payment by results with the very lowest grade | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
offenders who are unlikely to reoffend anyway. Which part are you | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
worried about? We are worried about all of it. It is a high achieving | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
service and it is reducing reoffending, and Pauline is right, | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
people want it to be reduced but there is not a magic fix, it is a | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
painstaking, complicated and difficult process. And the lowest | :49:36. | :49:37. | |
grade offenders that Pauline is talking about do not include minor | :49:38. | :49:46. | |
offenders. Why such radical reform? We need to change it and get it | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
right. The public expect us to get it right and we need to get on with | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
it. The more we delay everything, the less chance we have that its | :49:54. | :50:01. | |
will be quick. Are you listening to concerns, for example the head of | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
the Derbyshire Probation Trust is saying there could be more | :50:06. | :50:07. | |
preventable attacks and deaths, they are not mincing their words. They | :50:08. | :50:16. | |
will not be dealt with by anybody else other than the probation | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
service. The important thing is that the people who will stay with this | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
new National probation service will be those at high risk of causing | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
harm but medium grade offenders, serial thieves, people have been in | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
jail several times will be people who will disappear from this. A high | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
performing authority will completely disappear and many kinds of work | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
that they do, particularly in rural communities, will cease to happen. | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
There is a categorisation and whenever someone who is subject | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
ditty that commits a serious offence again, there is an enquiry and most | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
serious further offences come from low and medium risk offenders and | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
medium risk offenders and these are the people who will be subject to | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
supervision by the private sector. These are people we will not be able | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
to monitor. Not necessarily. Why make the changes before the pilot? | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
They will be people who will go into these new services so that the | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
expertise will not be lost to the system, it will be just a different | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
way of doing it and sometimes you have to stop, look at their system | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
and decide that maybe there is a better way of doing it. I accept | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
that the probation service is a good one but I think sometimes you need | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
to reassess and look again and say, can we do it a better way? Why would | :51:31. | :51:38. | |
people die? Let me give you an example, if somebody is being | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
released from prison from opening conditions, somebody serving a long | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
prison sentence, they cannot be put into open conditions until they are | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
medium risk and then they get released at medium risk and they | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
would be the kind of person who would go into the private sector. | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
Why would it kill somebody? People on my sentences would come into that | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
group, they are not released until they are medium. Is striking the | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
answer? Striking is a desperate measure so that people understand | :52:15. | :52:23. | |
the desperate measure that public servants are faced with. There are | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
growing calls in East Midlands to hold fitness to work assessments by | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
the contractor, Atos. We spoke to one Derbyshire man with an | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
incredible story, born with one arm and claims he was asked if his other | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
arm would grow back at his assessment. Atos deny the claims but | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
it has raised an issue of assessments and whether they should | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
be scrapped. Gary Swift lives alone in North | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
Derbyshire, he has been in work in the past but now struggles to find | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
an employer willing to take him on. They tried to get me to lift boxes | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
out of the storeroom. He was born with one arm, and it makes lifting | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
objects and other tasks difficult. His disability has also led him to | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
be bullied at work. You would like to work as a driver but has not been | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
able to get a break. I get rejected from all the tribunal 's. They say | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
that I can work, I am not disabled but I cannot wait because I keep | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
getting rejected, it is like a never ending circle. He was told to take | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
an assessment but was surprised by the questions he faced. | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
What did Atos Askew? Date asked me if my arm would grow back `` ask | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
you. I looked at them to say, are you being realistic? I was born like | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
this. It will not grow back. A local charity says arm's case is not | :53:55. | :54:06. | |
uncommon. There are documented cases `` Garry's case. People have not | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
been treated with dignity. It is designed to rush people through. | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
People like Garry get training to help them find work but in his case, | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
it was not suited to his needs. They send you out in the countryside, | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
putting kissing gates up and basically you have to dig a hole. | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
For a post to go in. I was stood next to everybody for 13 weeks | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
because I can't dig. Atos is keen to point out that it only advises the | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
Government of people's capability but it is the Department for Work | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
and Pensions that ultimately makes the decision. That department says: | :54:49. | :55:03. | |
The previous government appointed Atos and we're bringing on board | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
additional providers. With complaints about Atos getting | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
louder in the East Midlands, there are more people like Garry waiting | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
to see if the process will be fixed any time soon. | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
We did ask Atos to join our discussion that they told us no one | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
was available and in a statement they refuted his claim categorically | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
insisting that their staff were highly trained professionals and | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
would not have asked a question like that. One would hope so. There is no | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
denying that this is causing a lot of stress. Garry clearly feels the | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
system is not helping him. He has clearly been put on the wrong work | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
experience to find out. He cannot dig, it is a sad case that he has | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
had this awful situation thrust upon him but I don't think he is | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
unemployable. There are jobs he could do and for the majority of | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
people who are disabled, if they can work, it is better for them. Many | :56:01. | :56:08. | |
want to. Yes, and there are some ` and I am not saying that he does not | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
want to work, clearly he wants to work and it would be good for him | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
but the support he was given was wrong and we must get it right. But | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
things are being changed all the time, the system is getting better. | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
You think you're getting this right? We are, they will still be people | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
who slip through, there always will be with any system but it is getting | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
better than it was when was first starting and it has got thousands of | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
people into work who were thinking they were disabled and could not | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
work. Dennis Skinner, the Labour MP for Bolsover described Atos in the | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
Commons as a cruel, heartless monster. Do you agree? The way the | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
system is working is really cruel, but also utterly incompetent. | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
Stories like this, arm's, every single week my surgery I will see | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
who has been wrongly classified `` Garry's. Somebody whose life was | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
wrecked in a car crash but the car crash was the start of the problems, | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
he got into the Atos system, went through the tribunal and the | :57:14. | :57:21. | |
tribunal found him nowhere near fit to work, and within six weeks are | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
going through all this process, the whole thing is starting again and he | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
will be assessed again. And it costs more money, Pauline. It is better | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
for people to be in work than on benefits, that is proven and they | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
want to work. Of course they will be people who cannot work and we should | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
be looking after them and we should be making sure that there | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
assessments are fair that they can appeal and they can ask for it to be | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
redone and that is what people need to do. But they don't want to, I | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
know it is an option but who would want to go through that? Of course | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
you don't want to but if you are claiming public money, I think you | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
have to until the situation has been clarified. And clearly, that | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
gentleman cannot do a digging job, that is obvious. He said he wanted | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
to do a driving job, that may not be an option but there are other jobs | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
out there and he could have training to get another job. While Labour | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
making such a fuss about this now? `` why are Labour making such. What | :58:26. | :58:34. | |
we have is a really adversarial DWP led by the incompetent but heartless | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
Iain Duncan Smith who is driving people mad. We have had two people | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
in Chesterfield found fit for work and they died of their conditions. | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
People that have got serious mental health problems, doctors saying that | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
they are making people more ill by going through this. Iain Duncan | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
Smith is not heartless, he cares because he knows it is better for | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
people to be in work. That is why he has gone through all this process | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
and he spent years trying to perfect it before he was in government, | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
before he was the Secretary of State. And he has done it to the | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
best of his ability and most of it... It is not all working but no | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
system is perfect. Is this not a sign that it is not going very well? | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
It is working for most of the people most of the time. There will always | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
be cases and I have heard that case about Garry, it is a well`known case | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
and it is ridiculous and he needs to be reassessed and he should ask for | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
a reassessment. 75% of people who have appeal when their appeal. It is | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
costing a fortune but it is putting people through terrible stress. We | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
want to see people being supported and we recognise the small number of | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
people who do not want to work but this system is not working and if | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
this government has got any heart about it, it should reassess the | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
system totally and get it done to get it working properly. It is | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
broken. But the heart is there because they are trying to get | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
people into work and give them the training and that is a good thing. | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
It is not working. Time now for a round`up of the other political | :00:21. | :00:22. | |
stories here in the East Midlands, he was our political editor. | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
Council workers in Nottinghamshire are bracing themselves for more | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
budget cuts, the county council will unveil its plans to cut ?134 million | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
on Tuesday. It is expected they could be large`scale redundancies | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
and services will be reduced or close down entirely. The council | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
admits the details will be grim. Conservatives in Leicester have | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
welcomed the Government's introduction of the first Islamic | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
bond outside the non`Muslim world. The new Bond complies with sharia | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
law of the Leicester Conservative Association says it gives the UK | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
access to billions of pounds of investment. | :01:04. | :01:04. | |
Neighbourhood watch organisations are keeping their eyes out on our | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
new police and crime Commissioners, they are being asked for their views | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
on what impact the elected VCCs are having. | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
A big merger is under way in the business community, the | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
Leicestershire Chamber of Commerce and the Nottinghamshire and | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
Derbyshire chamber are planning to join forces across the East | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
Midlands. Of the greater Manchester, it will be the biggest chamber in | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
Britain. `` after greater Manchester. | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
On next week's programme, the first anniversary of the police and crime | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Commissioners, we will find out how they are doing and ask from some of | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
our PCCs and ask the the announcement by Nottinghamshire | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
County Council and you can follow all the details on our blog. That's | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
the Sunday politics here in the East Midlands. Back to Andrew, thank you | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
very much to our guests. confident we will deliver that. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's | :02:01. | :02:16. | |
relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the | :02:17. | :02:29. | |
Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things - | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the | :03:57. | :04:08. | |
report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
something that the police are looking into so that is not | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We | :04:16. | :04:27. | |
learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3 | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
million working people who ensure our public services function. At | :06:20. | :06:28. | |
Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd | :06:34. | :06:42. | |
just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback. | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing | :10:38. | :10:45. | |
the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2. | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living | :12:01. | :12:11. | |
wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a | :12:24. | :12:37. | |
living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage. | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce. | :13:06. | :13:16. | |
That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. | :13:30. | :13:58. | |
Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life. | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there. | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
There were the objects that were making the Earth. | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
We're now weightless. That's how our planet started. | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go? | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on. | :14:21. | :14:24. |