10/11/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


10/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news. With deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman, UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a look at calls to remove the Sun's Page 3.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

:00:36.:00:42.

the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

:00:43.:00:47.

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

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don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

:00:52.:00:55.

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

:00:56.:00:59.

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

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talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

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three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

:01:12.:01:14.

some balls. Stay. It is good fun for And in the East Midlands, the

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council leader planning 800 job cuts joins us

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It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.

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And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars

:01:47.:01:50.

auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on

:01:51.:01:55.

your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

:01:56.:02:00.

First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night

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without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies

:02:04.:02:14.

didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear

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programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another

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meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign

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Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the

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question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good

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chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and

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negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of

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energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal

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which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to

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be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put

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the case for the kind of deal we are looking

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the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,

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including interests of the whole world,

:03:10.:03:15.

the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in

:03:16.:03:20.

this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear

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proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about

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this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about

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prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor

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it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.

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France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a

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disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will

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be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic

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sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have

:04:10.:04:16.

pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new

:04:17.:04:21.

president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.

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I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these

:04:30.:04:36.

talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at

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official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which

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has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly

:04:50.:04:54.

defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to

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go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they

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cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows

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the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that

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with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the

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Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could

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still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are

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interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are

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trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who

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are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is

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that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is

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prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about

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Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who

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is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel

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Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card

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list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp

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rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November

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the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt

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to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the

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Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all

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of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you

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talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.

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The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have

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not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are

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doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures

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you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the

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Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a

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rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly

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opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel

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Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had

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to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it

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will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is

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now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you

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say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on

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Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband

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offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on

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Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading

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towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I

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cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get

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over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there

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will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are

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going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which

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constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly

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Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a

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realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will

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have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the

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May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as

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well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.

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Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has

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tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.

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The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP

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conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party

:09:49.:09:53.

is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with

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the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be

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joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's

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accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that

:10:12.:10:16.

would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no

:10:17.:10:24.

risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.

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There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We

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will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will

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have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the

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world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi

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and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed

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concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we

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should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this

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a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was

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a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made

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the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say

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is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big

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businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we

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did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they

:11:47.:11:50.

wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,

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there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what

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the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation

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is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It

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depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are

:12:13.:12:17.

beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses

:12:18.:12:22.

are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any

:12:23.:12:26.

potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does

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repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the

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Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions

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to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,

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the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a

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renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered

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around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will

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happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by

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Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but

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they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going

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to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ

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them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will

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be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to

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break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.

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-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am

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not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the

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referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.

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Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining

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sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29

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million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is

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technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open

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door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29

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million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29

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million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million

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people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will

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do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70

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million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say

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that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4

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without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another

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massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such

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a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your

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anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was

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representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it

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was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place

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this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won

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the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that

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doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put

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together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows

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that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped

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it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we

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are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.

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Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible

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and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and

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crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and

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subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration

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issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the

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European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians

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flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.

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Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good

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for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,

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you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system

:17:18.:17:21.

claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You

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are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if

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only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk

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and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European

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election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.

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The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his

:17:42.:17:45.

leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He

:17:46.:17:48.

bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,

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delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech

:17:52.:17:56.

of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and

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promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The

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next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about

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how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the

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Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and

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character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between

:18:28.:18:31.

me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was

:18:32.:18:36.

Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the

:18:37.:18:41.

tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the

:18:42.:18:45.

tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the

:18:46.:18:50.

bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,

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here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime

:18:54.:18:56.

Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who

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repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party

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faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's

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Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the

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bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off

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Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was

:19:32.:19:34.

stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think

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that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be

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justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually

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help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes

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that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being

:19:53.:19:56.

incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council

:19:57.:20:00.

tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,

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then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.

:20:05.:20:08.

That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of

:20:09.:20:12.

the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a

:20:13.:20:15.

smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore

:20:16.:20:19.

they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one

:20:20.:20:23.

spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is

:20:24.:20:30.

completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for

:20:31.:20:34.

their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not

:20:35.:20:38.

depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?

:20:39.:20:42.

Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.

:20:43.:20:48.

What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of

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Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've

:20:54.:20:57.

come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These

:20:58.:21:01.

people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit

:21:02.:21:05.

in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits

:21:06.:21:10.

who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them

:21:11.:21:13.

will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find

:21:14.:21:18.

work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their

:21:19.:21:22.

rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their

:21:23.:21:26.

family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to

:21:27.:21:30.

move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,

:21:31.:21:34.

or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are

:21:35.:21:38.

low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because

:21:39.:21:43.

of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was

:21:44.:21:46.

commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change

:21:47.:21:50.

and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,

:21:51.:21:54.

some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have

:21:55.:21:57.

waited until you have got the independent research, that

:21:58.:22:00.

independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In

:22:01.:22:03.

fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their

:22:04.:22:08.

independent research before they bought into effect something and

:22:09.:22:11.

imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have

:22:12.:22:18.

known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could

:22:19.:22:21.

have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into

:22:22.:22:26.

smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from

:22:27.:22:29.

councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move

:22:30.:22:32.

into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should

:22:33.:22:36.

have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are

:22:37.:22:39.

absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into

:22:40.:22:44.

rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you

:22:45.:22:47.

can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies

:22:48.:22:52.

to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The

:22:53.:22:56.

justification for it, which is people will move, is completely

:22:57.:23:00.

bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare

:23:01.:23:06.

reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's

:23:07.:23:09.

welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are

:23:10.:23:14.

you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own

:23:15.:23:17.

supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job

:23:18.:23:21.

actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said

:23:22.:23:26.

that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a

:23:27.:23:29.

young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a

:23:30.:23:33.

job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as

:23:34.:23:37.

somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of

:23:38.:23:42.

unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue

:23:43.:23:46.

about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need

:23:47.:23:50.

support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't

:23:51.:23:54.

have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts

:23:55.:23:59.

the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --

:24:00.:24:03.

substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of

:24:04.:24:08.

benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour

:24:09.:24:13.

must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,

:24:14.:24:18.

redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and

:24:19.:24:22.

the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we

:24:23.:24:26.

are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me

:24:27.:24:28.

saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think

:24:29.:24:33.

that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've

:24:34.:24:37.

been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take

:24:38.:24:40.

them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we

:24:41.:24:46.

showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles

:24:47.:24:50.

have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the

:24:51.:24:54.

Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own

:24:55.:24:58.

personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to

:24:59.:25:03.

disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody

:25:04.:25:07.

else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you

:25:08.:25:11.

the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the

:25:12.:25:16.

Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...

:25:17.:25:22.

But you're... All those who've won their seats against the

:25:23.:25:24.

Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't

:25:25.:25:29.

always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,

:25:30.:25:34.

the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and

:25:35.:25:40.

these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy

:25:41.:25:46.

grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,

:25:47.:25:50.

private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming

:25:51.:25:53.

year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow

:25:54.:25:58.

faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was

:25:59.:26:01.

flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow

:26:02.:26:06.

Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit

:26:07.:26:10.

on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding

:26:11.:26:13.

the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that

:26:14.:26:18.

what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the

:26:19.:26:21.

recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I

:26:22.:26:25.

understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are

:26:26.:26:32.

no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the

:26:33.:26:35.

growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and

:26:36.:26:39.

living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next

:26:40.:26:43.

year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to

:26:44.:26:46.

rise with that amount of growth What do you do then? We have not

:26:47.:26:50.

switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way

:26:51.:26:53.

along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and

:26:54.:26:58.

we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic

:26:59.:27:02.

policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns

:27:03.:27:06.

people have and recognise that they are struggling with the

:27:07.:27:10.

cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of

:27:11.:27:14.

living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I

:27:15.:27:20.

hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,

:27:21.:27:24.

for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are

:27:25.:27:27.

worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader

:27:28.:27:32.

measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that

:27:33.:27:35.

decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the

:27:36.:27:40.

country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living

:27:41.:27:46.

standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line

:27:47.:27:51.

There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National

:27:52.:27:53.

Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused

:27:54.:27:59.

-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All

:28:00.:28:05.

right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have

:28:06.:28:10.

signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press

:28:11.:28:13.

regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none

:28:14.:28:19.

will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to

:28:20.:28:23.

make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not

:28:24.:28:26.

the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and

:28:27.:28:30.

basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own

:28:31.:28:33.

regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If

:28:34.:28:38.

they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was

:28:39.:28:42.

decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass

:28:43.:28:46.

legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up

:28:47.:28:49.

what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.

:28:50.:28:54.

OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press

:28:55.:28:58.

Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,

:28:59.:29:03.

then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is

:29:04.:29:06.

independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been

:29:07.:29:10.

skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down

:29:11.:29:13.

and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us

:29:14.:29:18.

then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped

:29:19.:29:22.

back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and

:29:23.:29:26.

say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent

:29:27.:29:30.

and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very

:29:31.:29:34.

interesting. Thank you for that That's really interesting that if

:29:35.:29:38.

they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We

:29:39.:29:43.

want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and

:29:44.:29:49.

direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to

:29:50.:29:53.

ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by

:29:54.:29:57.

gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first

:29:58.:30:02.

appeared way back in 1970. That s 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called

:30:03.:30:07.

for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless

:30:08.:30:24.

photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three

:30:25.:30:36.

should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it

:30:37.:30:46.

at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family

:30:47.:30:57.

newspaper. Should it stay or go Go. I will look like the bad guy. It

:30:58.:31:08.

should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do

:31:09.:31:17.

not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know

:31:18.:31:31.

when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age

:31:32.:31:35.

Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are

:31:36.:31:46.

other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every

:31:47.:31:50.

day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40

:31:51.:31:59.

years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been

:32:00.:32:07.

long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to

:32:08.:32:12.

encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my

:32:13.:32:18.

children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see

:32:19.:32:25.

the day when they get rid of it Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can

:32:26.:32:30.

turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I

:32:31.:32:44.

think the council should do something about their car parks

:32:45.:32:50.

Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,

:32:51.:32:59.

that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,

:33:00.:33:05.

lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as

:33:06.:33:12.

empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see

:33:13.:33:20.

it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats!

:33:21.:33:29.

It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What

:33:30.:33:37.

about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do

:33:38.:33:45.

you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her.

:33:46.:33:54.

I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about

:33:55.:34:01.

her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she

:34:02.:34:10.

has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More

:34:11.:34:16.

people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not

:34:17.:34:26.

really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am

:34:27.:34:33.

not arguing it should be banned I have not argued for it to be banned

:34:34.:34:38.

but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it

:34:39.:34:51.

should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content

:34:52.:34:55.

but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in

:34:56.:34:59.

21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women

:35:00.:35:04.

in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think

:35:05.:35:09.

women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in

:35:10.:35:19.

public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political

:35:20.:35:23.

importance, that it had in the 1980s when page three was at its height.

:35:24.:35:27.

Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting

:35:28.:35:34.

this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years

:35:35.:35:40.

ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am

:35:41.:35:45.

entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to

:35:46.:35:52.

establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should

:35:53.:36:02.

people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be

:36:03.:36:07.

banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott

:36:08.:36:14.

the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of

:36:15.:36:20.

which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the

:36:21.:36:24.

press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than

:36:25.:36:31.

taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers.

:36:32.:36:37.

Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by

:36:38.:36:44.

saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should

:36:45.:36:50.

people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you

:36:51.:36:55.

like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you

:36:56.:37:03.

should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what

:37:04.:37:08.

the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three.

:37:09.:37:13.

If they changed it in Australia, which is where Rupert Murdoch came

:37:14.:37:19.

from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the

:37:20.:37:23.

Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking

:37:24.:37:25.

to man leading In the East Midlands, thousands of

:37:26.:37:48.

council staff are under threat of redundancy. We'll be hearing from

:37:49.:37:51.

the leader of Nottinghamshire County Council where 800 jobs are going.

:37:52.:37:54.

And we're also calling in a few of our police and crime commissioners

:37:55.:37:57.

for further questioning. One year on, have the Police and

:37:58.:37:59.

Crime Commissioner is made the impact that was hoped. We have come

:38:00.:38:03.

to Derbyshire to find out. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and joining

:38:04.:38:06.

me in the studio this week is Michael Mullaney, a Liberal Democrat

:38:07.:38:09.

Councillor for Hinckley and Bosworth, and the parliamentary

:38:10.:38:11.

candidate for Bosworth, and Paddy Tipping, a former Labour MP and now

:38:12.:38:15.

the Police and Crime Commissioner for Nottinghamshire. Paddy, can you

:38:16.:38:20.

believe it, it has been a year! It has been a year and it has been

:38:21.:38:26.

good. I have done a lot, there is a lot more to do. Are you glad you

:38:27.:38:32.

took it on? It is a great job and I working with good people, police and

:38:33.:38:38.

public. It is a big job. It is, it is a budget of ?200 million. The

:38:39.:38:43.

budget is reducing, we will talk about that in a moment. Michael, you

:38:44.:38:47.

are trying to be an MP, how is that going? Going well. I'm talking to

:38:48.:38:54.

people in Hinckley and buzzwords. Things are going well locally in the

:38:55.:38:58.

campaign. `` Hinckley and Boswells. Last week, we told you the budget

:38:59.:39:01.

proposals from Nottinghamshire County Council would be grim. Now we

:39:02.:39:05.

have the full details. The council says government cuts have left it

:39:06.:39:08.

with a funding gap of ?154 million over the next three years. Its

:39:09.:39:11.

proposals include scrapping 800 jobs and cutting back on services like

:39:12.:39:14.

Trading Standards and highways maintenance. It is also planning to

:39:15.:39:20.

end a grant to the Nottingham Playhouse of ?93,000 a year.

:39:21.:39:26.

In addition, council tax would rise by 1.99%...the highest the council

:39:27.:39:29.

can go without triggering a referendum over its plans. The

:39:30.:39:32.

Labour`run council says government cuts have left it with no choice,

:39:33.:39:35.

but the Conservative opposition says there is an alternative. If they had

:39:36.:39:41.

down as we propose to do, which is proposed `` which is propose ``

:39:42.:39:49.

which is contract at the private sector. Give people the opportunity

:39:50.:39:53.

to save their jobs and increase their responsibilities and maybe

:39:54.:39:57.

look for fresh fields by being an expanding company. They have chosen

:39:58.:40:01.

not to do that. So at least 800 post will go. It will probably be 1800

:40:02.:40:10.

people under notice of redundancy and very uncertain about their

:40:11.:40:13.

future. If they really cared, they could have done it differently.

:40:14.:40:21.

We are joined by Alan Rhodes, the Labour MP, and Kay Cutts says you

:40:22.:40:26.

could have avoided this. She is wrong. They left us with a deficit

:40:27.:40:34.

which we are having to clear up. The government moved the goalposts and

:40:35.:40:38.

created a problem for million pounds hole which we have to fill. We will

:40:39.:40:43.

have to make some extremely difficult decisions. I am very angry

:40:44.:40:48.

about being in this situation. I am also very sorry for the decisions we

:40:49.:40:52.

are having to take and that people will lose their jobs as a result. It

:40:53.:41:00.

sounds that `` it sounds as if you are blaming everybody else. We are

:41:01.:41:06.

not. But when we came into office we inherited a ?130 million mess and

:41:07.:41:11.

the goalposts were moved a few months later. We now have to clear

:41:12.:41:17.

it up. We here it is 800 jobs, some of which are part`time. How many

:41:18.:41:22.

people are really at risk as Mac Kay Cutts says it could be as many as

:41:23.:41:35.

1800 people. That is scaremongering. There are about 750 actual jobs.

:41:36.:41:41.

There are 50 posts already vacant. I have been 0

:41:42.:41:42.

There are 50 posts already vacant. I have been made redundant and it is

:41:43.:41:45.

not pleasant. It is regrettable that we are in this situation. It

:41:46.:41:52.

certainly is. It is because of conservative financial incompetence.

:41:53.:41:55.

We have had no support from central government. Michael Mullaney, you

:41:56.:42:00.

supporter of the Liberal Democrats, did Labour have to make cuts so

:42:01.:42:06.

fast? I can't speak for the council which I run, 0

:42:07.:42:07.

fast? I can't speak for the council which I run, Hinckley and Boswells,

:42:08.:42:12.

we have not had to make any redundancies and we still have one

:42:13.:42:16.

of the top ten lowest council taxes in the country. How have they

:42:17.:42:19.

managed that? By effective management of the council. In some

:42:20.:42:25.

services are done at county council level. So if we are talking from a

:42:26.:42:28.

county perspective, we have in Leicester, a conservative run

:42:29.:42:32.

authority which is proposing cutbacks. We as Liberal Democrats

:42:33.:42:38.

are set alternatives. There was money in the reserves at Leicester

:42:39.:42:43.

county council, which is in the bank for a rainy day, civil goodness sake

:42:44.:42:48.

use it. Alan is saying that the coalition is to blame for this.

:42:49.:42:51.

There are lots of alternatives which we have proposed. Spend some of that

:42:52.:42:59.

?99 million. There are still a lot of money spent on glossy magazines,

:43:00.:43:04.

they could cut back back. There was money spent on middlemen, the

:43:05.:43:08.

council pays a private company to cut the grass which pays a small

:43:09.:43:12.

amount of money to another contractor. By cutting out the

:43:13.:43:18.

middleman in that, they could save money. There were lots of other

:43:19.:43:23.

ways. They can stop; taking place. Paddy, in things like trading

:43:24.:43:30.

standards, that impinges on things in your remit. Are you worried?

:43:31.:43:35.

Yes, I am worried. Trading standards officers have been talking to us.

:43:36.:43:40.

They have been talking about the reductions. They are talking about

:43:41.:43:46.

emergency planning, we are all talking with the fire service etc.

:43:47.:43:52.

We are talking about best use of buildings, CCTV. You have been

:43:53.:44:00.

talking about these cuts. We are talking about ?50 million a year

:44:01.:44:05.

over three years. But we are told your annual budget is ?600 million a

:44:06.:44:08.

year. It doesn't sound that much when you spell it out like that. It

:44:09.:44:17.

is. It is a lot of money. We are delivering services across the

:44:18.:44:20.

county to some of the most vulnerable people in

:44:21.:44:22.

Nottinghamshire. It is a big budget but we have a lot of services to do.

:44:23.:44:27.

On this issue reserves, we have explained many times that we are

:44:28.:44:34.

required by statute to carry a percentage of reserves. There are

:44:35.:44:37.

very few reserves that are unaccounted for. Can't you dip into

:44:38.:44:43.

those? Not for revenue purposes, only for capital purposes. But we

:44:44.:44:47.

have to keep a level of reserves in place. Actually, the comparison

:44:48.:44:53.

between the borough council and the county council is apples and pears.

:44:54.:44:58.

The pressure on Borough councils is much less. Realistically, do you see

:44:59.:45:02.

yourselves getting this budget through? It is a consultation at the

:45:03.:45:08.

moment. We are listening to people and hearing what they tell us. We

:45:09.:45:16.

are very pleased that we have a lot of respondents. We will take

:45:17.:45:21.

responsible military and get the budget through. Lots of people very

:45:22.:45:28.

worried at the moment. Yes, and I have a great deal of sympathy. It is

:45:29.:45:33.

regrettable that we find ourselves in this situation. Alan Rhodes,

:45:34.:45:37.

thank you very much. This time a year ago, election fever

:45:38.:45:41.

was sweeping the country. Queues formed from early in the morning as

:45:42.:45:44.

people waited to vote for the new Police and Crime Commissioners.

:45:45.:45:47.

Well, as you know, it was nothing like that! Elected with just 15% of

:45:48.:45:51.

the vote, they've now been in office for a year, so what difference have

:45:52.:45:55.

they made? John Hess has spent a day with the Derbyshire Police Chief, to

:45:56.:46:01.

find out. It is a year since the police and

:46:02.:46:05.

crime commissioners were elected on the lowest turnout in election

:46:06.:46:09.

history. We have come to Derbyshire to meet Alan Charles, the PCC here

:46:10.:46:13.

to find out if this new role is having an impact. This commissioner

:46:14.:46:19.

wants to make an impact. Today in the Derbyshire market town of

:46:20.:46:23.

Ripley, the focus was on cutting anti`social behaviour. The

:46:24.:46:32.

commissioner has a plan. To curb the sale of high`strength blues. It is

:46:33.:46:37.

an idea first tested in Ipswich. They managed to get independent

:46:38.:46:41.

retailers to remove anything above 6.5% from the shelves. If we can

:46:42.:46:46.

roll that out to Derbyshire towns and Derby city, it will have an

:46:47.:46:54.

impact on local people. If we can get a locally elected official to

:46:55.:46:59.

get `` to take initiatives, it will be a good thing. One year into

:47:00.:47:03.

office, Alan Charles believes that on the streets and public meetings,

:47:04.:47:07.

people are becoming more aware of his public role. To find out from my

:47:08.:47:12.

perspective what is important to people about policing and also that

:47:13.:47:15.

they know why I'm here and what I can do. The Derbyshire force has

:47:16.:47:22.

3000 officers and staff, a budget, set by the Commissioner, of 140

:47:23.:47:32.

month million pounds. Do I. `` do I contest the budget? Yes, of course I

:47:33.:47:43.

do. This labour commissioner warns of rising crime caused by the

:47:44.:47:47.

coalition's welfare reforms. The Home Secretary is saying that crime

:47:48.:47:51.

is falling even though we have had budget cuts. It is not. What we find

:47:52.:47:57.

in deprived areas is that crime is starting to go up. Crime is going up

:47:58.:48:03.

and Derby compared to what it was last year and that follows years of

:48:04.:48:10.

falling crime. Meet the apprentice. The Derbyshire falls as 12 of them,

:48:11.:48:16.

getting appearance `` getting experience of a job which the

:48:17.:48:20.

Commissioner is turning to keep in the public eye. If there are

:48:21.:48:25.

efficiencies to be found, I want to find those and reinvest those into

:48:26.:48:37.

the public. The next elections are in 2016. At safeguarding communities

:48:38.:48:44.

is his immediate priority. We've got another police chief in

:48:45.:48:47.

the studio to join Paddy Tipping from Nottinghamshire, Alan Hardwick

:48:48.:48:50.

is the independent PCC for Lincolnshire. Allen, one year on,

:48:51.:48:53.

what difference have you made in Lincolnshire? The best thing about

:48:54.:48:58.

the job is that I can get out and about of the office `` out of the

:48:59.:49:05.

office and meet the people that I serve. What difference have I made?

:49:06.:49:13.

Our police force numbers have gone up. They were going to go down. I

:49:14.:49:20.

have close the funding gap of ?3.5 million. No jobs will be lost more

:49:21.:49:24.

than will they be lost on my watch. We are trying all floors of new

:49:25.:49:29.

developments in technology. Body worn cameras, portable

:49:30.:49:34.

fingerprinting... A long list of success? Yes. It sounds arrogant,

:49:35.:49:39.

but I'm doing a job on behalf of the people of Lincolnshire and I take it

:49:40.:49:43.

seriously. As was said earlier, I enjoy it. One of your key pledges

:49:44.:49:47.

was to get money back to Lincolnshire which and had been

:49:48.:49:51.

taken away by the government. And he been successful? No, I haven't. Do

:49:52.:49:57.

you feel you have let Lincolnshire down? No. All I can do is do my best

:49:58.:50:01.

on behalf of the people that I serve. 0

:50:02.:50:01.

on behalf of the people that I serve. I have spoken personally to

:50:02.:50:05.

the Home Secretary. Basically, it is a case of the government having

:50:06.:50:11.

their own problems. I would like to say leave Lincolnshire alone because

:50:12.:50:15.

we make the best use of the money from the government. We are the most

:50:16.:50:20.

cost`effective force in the country. If every four 's was run

:50:21.:50:25.

like ours, we would save ?1 billion. I have told the government that and

:50:26.:50:32.

got no reply. Michael Mullaney, the the Liberal Democrats were sceptical

:50:33.:50:38.

about policing crime commissioners. It sounds as if it is working. The

:50:39.:50:43.

big problem was politicisation of the police force. In Leicestershire,

:50:44.:50:48.

we have a conservative Police Commissioner. We didn't stand

:50:49.:50:51.

because we didn't believe in the political involvement in the police

:50:52.:50:55.

force. So he has not won you over with his successors? There with the

:50:56.:51:00.

costs, the cost of running those elections in which only one in seven

:51:01.:51:05.

people budget. ?75 million, that money could have been spent putting

:51:06.:51:11.

more police on the street. Let's hear what Paddy thinks about what

:51:12.:51:16.

differences he has made. As you have successors to? I said we would

:51:17.:51:25.

recruit an 0 successors to? I said we would

:51:26.:51:28.

recruit an extra 150 police officers. We have recruited them.

:51:29.:51:32.

They are hitting the streets plus 100 PCSO 's. I said we would reduce

:51:33.:51:40.

anti`social behaviour by 50%. We are working with councils to do that.

:51:41.:51:45.

Domestic violence has been a big a few assume you're putting extra

:51:46.:51:48.

resources in there. Women can begin to feel, and their children, a bit

:51:49.:51:54.

safer. All well and good, but what about this week, tweeting about

:51:55.:52:02.

dogs. Is that really important, when crime is still there? We have police

:52:03.:52:14.

dogs working hard, and apprehending people, . No one would argue that

:52:15.:52:30.

they do a good job of? But we look after police officers in retirement,

:52:31.:52:33.

what about the dogs? Is this about the popular vote? It is right that

:52:34.:52:38.

police officers should take these dogs home in retirement and they do

:52:39.:52:43.

it out of their own pocket. They should have their vets' fees paid. I

:52:44.:52:50.

think we should treat animals and people with respect. Seems

:52:51.:52:56.

reasonable? Yes, of course. But the police commissioners, where they

:52:57.:52:59.

were launched, there was this big Guha that there would be `` there

:53:00.:53:07.

was this big noise that they would be people that prevented them defy

:53:08.:53:14.

with. But most people don't know who they are. `` there was this big

:53:15.:53:18.

noise that they would be people that we could identify with. They have

:53:19.:53:23.

not made the impact. One person in a big county like Leicestershire can't

:53:24.:53:32.

make the impact. The local PCC of Leicestershire, Sir Clive Loader,

:53:33.:53:36.

said he was too busy to come. He signed up to a part`time job.

:53:37.:53:39.

Perhaps he is saying that because he was not a politician. Do you have

:53:40.:53:45.

sympathy with that? I do have sympathy. I worked 70 hours a week.

:53:46.:53:51.

But he must realise was a full`time job! I did this with my eyes open.

:53:52.:53:59.

Lincolnshire crime has gone down by 14%. The latest figures I have is

:54:00.:54:05.

that it has gone down another 2.5% `` 2.7%. That is a success, isn't

:54:06.:54:11.

it. As for being invisible, that is nonsense. If we were invisible,

:54:12.:54:14.

people would not bother with what we say or do. I am approached every

:54:15.:54:20.

single day by the media asked if I have a comment to make. They would

:54:21.:54:25.

not ask a nobody to comment. As for the whole thing being in nonsense, I

:54:26.:54:33.

disagree. Does the name of your party give the game away? You all

:54:34.:54:38.

about democracy. Yes, but policing should not be a matter for

:54:39.:54:42.

elections. It should not be politicised. It is dangerous to have

:54:43.:54:46.

one person at the top with too much power. You can have tensions between

:54:47.:54:51.

police commissioners and chief constables. You certainly can. It is

:54:52.:54:59.

a recipe for instability. What we want is local police, people being

:55:00.:55:02.

able to contact their local beat officers. We have the police

:55:03.:55:09.

commissioners in the studio. We will be talking about that in a second.

:55:10.:55:12.

A BBC poll has found that many people don't even know they have a

:55:13.:55:15.

Police and Crime Commissioner, let alone who 0

:55:16.:55:16.

Police and Crime Commissioner, let alone who it is. But how well`known

:55:17.:55:19.

are our police chiefs in the East Midlands? Des Coleman has been

:55:20.:55:24.

making inquiries. Four faces that you should

:55:25.:55:28.

recognise. Let's see if people in Derby know him. No, you must be a

:55:29.:55:34.

politician. The face looks familiar but... The name escapes me. Is he a

:55:35.:55:39.

Labour 0 but... The name escapes me. Is he a

:55:40.:55:43.

Labour councillor? Not quite. I'm in Castle Donington in Leicestershire.

:55:44.:55:48.

Let's see if people know who Sir Clive Loader is? Do you know this

:55:49.:55:56.

man? Know. What if I said his name was Sir Clive Loader? Still means

:55:57.:56:00.

nothing. Do you know this gentleman? Know. No. Tell the camera. No. In

:56:01.:56:09.

Nottingham, let's see if people know who Paddy is. Do you recognise this

:56:10.:56:18.

man? No, Lewis E? Paddy Tipping, Nottingham policing crime

:56:19.:56:26.

Commissioner. `` who is he? Do you know this man if I showed you this

:56:27.:56:34.

picture? Paddy Tipping. We love you! He is the chief of the police, isn't

:56:35.:56:42.

he? Surely people would know this man, used a beer TV presenter `` he

:56:43.:56:50.

used to be a TV presenter. You know this gentleman? Know. Do you know

:56:51.:56:58.

this man? Alan Hardwick. He is policing crime Commissioner. Before

:56:59.:57:05.

you, she knows him! Well done. You got two each. But 50%

:57:06.:57:14.

of the people near me. You can't be too impressed. That's not a

:57:15.:57:21.

scientific survey. 70% of people knew about the police authorities.

:57:22.:57:28.

70% no about policing crime commissioners. That is a tenfold

:57:29.:57:33.

increase. That is based on what you are telling me, but what we found on

:57:34.:57:39.

the streets was not bad. Recognition is important. The whole point of the

:57:40.:57:46.

job... But how will people know to come to you if they don't know who

:57:47.:57:51.

you are? I would think that most people in Lincolnshire would know

:57:52.:57:56.

who I was although I am. How do you get the message across? I spent all

:57:57.:58:01.

week meeting the people 0 get the message across? I spent all

:58:02.:58:02.

week meeting the people that Weise serve. I have done 135 engagements

:58:03.:58:10.

with the public over the past year and the amount of work that has come

:58:11.:58:14.

into my office is double the amount that come into the `` that came into

:58:15.:58:20.

the police authority's. We are one year in. So you are saying they are

:58:21.:58:29.

warming to you? It feels as if they are setting me on fire! So you have

:58:30.:58:39.

had an impact, they have had an impact, people are turning up to the

:58:40.:58:45.

meetings. The populations are about a million, when you're talking about

:58:46.:58:48.

the people who go, it is tiny portion. The reality is we could say

:58:49.:59:00.

this money and users on front line policeman we don't want to get up

:59:01.:59:05.

political. Time for a round`up of some of the

:59:06.:59:09.

other political stories in the East Midlands this week ` here's John

:59:10.:59:17.

Hess with 60 seconds. Married people in the East Midlands

:59:18.:59:20.

could save up to ?200 a year thanks to a new tax break. That's according

:59:21.:59:24.

to Loughborough Conservative MP Nicky Morgan. She says 345,000

:59:25.:59:27.

people here could benefit from the married couples' allowance. But they

:59:28.:59:35.

will have to wait for a while. `` they will have to stay married for a

:59:36.:59:39.

while. The measure won't come in for 18 months.

:59:40.:59:41.

There was support at Westminster from both sides for miners who have

:59:42.:59:44.

lost their concessionary fuel after the collapse of UK Coal. Mansfield's

:59:45.:59:47.

Alan Neill wants the government to step in. In a lot of people say this

:59:48.:00:02.

is a benefit, it is a negotiated arrangement. The government is now

:00:03.:00:08.

considering ways of helping former miners who have lost out.

:00:09.:00:11.

And the Conservatives have announced their candidate for Newark at the

:00:12.:00:14.

next general election. Sitting MP Patrick Mercer resigned the

:00:15.:00:16.

Conservative whip after lobbying allegations. Robert Jenrick, a

:00:17.:00:19.

director of Christie's auction house, is the new candidate.

:00:20.:00:22.

That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands, thanks to Paddy

:00:23.:00:26.

Tipping and Michael Mullaney. Now back to

:00:27.:00:27.

more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:28.:00:38.

We learned this week that no more warships will be built at

:00:39.:00:43.

Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose

:00:44.:00:47.

and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the

:00:48.:00:50.

Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the

:00:51.:00:54.

United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign

:00:55.:01:04.

for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to

:01:05.:01:08.

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

:01:09.:01:16.

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

:01:17.:01:21.

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

:01:22.:01:27.

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

:01:28.:01:31.

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

:01:32.:01:35.

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

:01:36.:01:41.

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

:01:42.:01:45.

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

:01:46.:01:52.

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

:01:53.:01:59.

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

:02:00.:02:05.

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

:02:06.:02:09.

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

:02:10.:02:14.

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

:02:15.:02:20.

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

:02:21.:02:26.

or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

:02:27.:02:30.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

:02:31.:02:34.

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

:02:35.:02:43.

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

:02:44.:02:48.

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

:02:49.:02:52.

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

:02:53.:02:57.

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

:02:58.:03:04.

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

:03:05.:03:09.

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

:03:10.:03:14.

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

:03:15.:03:18.

British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

:03:19.:03:23.

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

:03:24.:03:28.

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

:03:29.:03:31.

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

:03:32.:03:36.

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

:03:37.:03:41.

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

:03:42.:03:45.

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

:03:46.:03:51.

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

:03:52.:03:58.

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

:03:59.:04:05.

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

:04:06.:04:14.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

:04:15.:04:20.

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

:04:21.:04:24.

to have their representation - representation that looks at

:04:25.:04:28.

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

:04:29.:04:32.

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

:04:33.:04:37.

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

:04:38.:04:48.

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

:04:49.:04:56.

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

:04:57.:05:02.

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

:05:03.:05:08.

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

:05:09.:05:13.

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

:05:14.:05:18.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

:05:19.:05:21.

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

:05:22.:05:27.

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

:05:28.:05:33.

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

:05:34.:05:37.

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

:05:38.:05:41.

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

:05:42.:05:47.

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

:05:48.:05:51.

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

:05:52.:05:54.

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

:05:55.:05:59.

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

:06:00.:06:04.

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

:06:05.:06:09.

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

:06:10.:06:13.

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

:06:14.:06:19.

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

:06:20.:06:25.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

:06:26.:06:30.

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

:06:31.:06:34.

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

:06:35.:06:38.

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

:06:39.:06:42.

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

:06:43.:06:47.

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

:06:48.:06:51.

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

:06:52.:06:55.

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

:06:56.:07:01.

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

:07:02.:07:09.

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

:07:10.:07:14.

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

:07:15.:07:18.

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

:07:19.:07:25.

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

:07:26.:07:29.

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

:07:30.:07:33.

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

:07:34.:07:36.

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

:07:37.:07:40.

being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

:07:41.:07:44.

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

:07:45.:07:51.

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

:07:52.:07:55.

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

:07:56.:07:58.

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

:07:59.:08:01.

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

:08:02.:08:05.

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

:08:06.:08:08.

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

:08:09.:08:12.

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

:08:13.:08:21.

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

:08:22.:08:26.

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

:08:27.:08:32.

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

:08:33.:08:39.

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

:08:40.:08:45.

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

:08:46.:08:52.

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

:08:53.:09:17.

you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

:09:18.:09:24.

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

:09:25.:09:30.

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

:09:31.:09:36.

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

:09:37.:09:42.

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

:09:43.:09:46.

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

:09:47.:09:52.

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

:09:53.:10:03.

to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

:10:04.:10:08.

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

:10:09.:10:14.

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

:10:15.:10:17.

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

:10:18.:10:21.

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

:10:22.:10:27.

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

:10:28.:10:35.

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

:10:36.:10:40.

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

:10:41.:10:44.

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

:10:45.:10:49.

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

:10:50.:10:57.

cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

:10:58.:11:00.

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

:11:01.:11:04.

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

:11:05.:11:09.

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

:11:10.:11:14.

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

:11:15.:11:19.

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

:11:20.:11:25.

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

:11:26.:11:32.

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

:11:33.:11:38.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

:11:39.:11:41.

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

:11:42.:11:45.

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

:11:46.:11:51.

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

:11:52.:11:55.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

:11:56.:12:03.

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

:12:04.:12:08.

will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

:12:09.:12:13.

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

:12:14.:12:25.

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

:12:26.:12:34.

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

:12:35.:12:38.

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

:12:39.:12:42.

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

:12:43.:12:46.

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

:12:47.:12:51.

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

:12:52.:13:00.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

:13:01.:13:04.

about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

:13:05.:13:11.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

:13:12.:13:15.

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

:13:16.:13:20.

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

:13:21.:13:26.

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

:13:27.:13:29.

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

:13:30.:13:32.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:33.:13:43.

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