01/12/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


01/12/2013

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper and Liberal Democrat president Tim Farron.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne

:00:37.:00:45.

announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk

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to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini

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budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first

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time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it

:00:57.:01:01.

down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the

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Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will

:01:12.:01:14.

be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says

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inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The

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And in the East Midlands, calling international rescue. The MP who

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leads the country's response capital is now a crisis. Another

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week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?

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And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the

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packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the

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bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be

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tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after

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weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the

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Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with

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its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained

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how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.

:02:16.:02:18.

What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by

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government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the

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average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas

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bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that

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government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families

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incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way

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that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing

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with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping

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low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing

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the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband

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freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and

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older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit

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of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with

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the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not

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very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced

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overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to

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it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are

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explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does

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not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what

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agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would

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fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,

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I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests

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he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies

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have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced

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this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for

:04:16.:04:19.

ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an

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incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am

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not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people

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might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting

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thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by

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Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your

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bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall

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through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they

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themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the

:05:01.:05:06.

Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still

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very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance

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announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze

:05:16.:05:19.

prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen

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them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at

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their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a

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reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0

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will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this

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time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George

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Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50

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has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the

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government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political

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bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along

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with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.

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Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the

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Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the

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coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or

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is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with

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the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where

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the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the

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homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing

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in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,

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but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.

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You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly

:07:04.:07:08.

down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are

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shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot

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ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older

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people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and

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raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with

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that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the

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eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation

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of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four

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years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost

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10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,

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how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.

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The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My

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take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about

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green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort

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of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income

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families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't

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-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall

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we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know

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that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be

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doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have

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jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my

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point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the

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last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to

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make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this

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government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are

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making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to

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you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.

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But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the

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threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account

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on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in

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coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not

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reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest

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income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be

:10:02.:10:07.

potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be

:10:08.:10:12.

that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going

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to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.

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We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the

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adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in

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favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest

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answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come

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round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if

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Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you

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would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?

:11:01.:11:05.

If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British

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people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,

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which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for

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those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might

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reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.

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Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,

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correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely

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fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want

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to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my

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view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour

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because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while

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they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy

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up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against

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it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference

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Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on

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the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income

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tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view

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that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are

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temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that

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was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return

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for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out

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of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour

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of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds

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open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is

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whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through

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other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair

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share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room

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subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with

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the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have

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about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the

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next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,

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but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for

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your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the

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prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always

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follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal

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Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.

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Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of

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the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up

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with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as

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you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and

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agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you

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disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party

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think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a

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post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant

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manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the

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sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I

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see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I

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have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and

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large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the

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president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside

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the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for

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joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens

:16:05.:16:08.

of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",

:16:09.:16:11.

and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,

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immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released

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earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the

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first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are

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talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come

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into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins

:16:30.:16:33.

and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants

:16:34.:16:38.

the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and

:16:39.:16:44.

Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to

:16:45.:16:47.

apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted

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apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the

:16:58.:16:57.

2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England

:16:58.:17:02.

and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.

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The government has played down expectations that the skill of

:17:08.:17:13.

migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new

:17:14.:17:16.

restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was

:17:17.:17:20.

two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being

:17:21.:17:31.

seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday

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interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You

:17:39.:17:41.

criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from

:17:42.:17:46.

Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted

:17:47.:17:50.

arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the

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battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what

:17:55.:17:57.

preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from

:17:58.:18:01.

some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been

:18:02.:18:07.

better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of

:18:08.:18:11.

what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a

:18:12.:18:15.

series of measures that the Government still had time to bring

:18:16.:18:21.

in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There

:18:22.:18:25.

was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,

:18:26.:18:30.

and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do

:18:31.:18:34.

not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for

:18:35.:18:39.

everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking

:18:40.:18:43.

again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I

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understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not

:18:48.:18:54.

preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,

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I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency

:19:01.:19:05.

workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did

:19:06.:19:11.

support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I

:19:12.:19:15.

have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we

:19:16.:19:20.

recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in

:19:21.:19:24.

opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given

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your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in

:19:30.:19:34.

2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not

:19:35.:19:38.

keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I

:19:39.:19:43.

think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we

:19:44.:19:46.

did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the

:19:47.:19:49.

concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have

:19:50.:19:57.

come from people who have come to Britain over many generations

:19:58.:19:59.

contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise

:20:00.:20:01.

that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible

:20:02.:20:06.

for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures

:20:07.:20:11.

that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people

:20:12.:20:15.

have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.

:20:16.:20:18.

Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled

:20:19.:20:22.

and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on

:20:23.:20:26.

immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total

:20:27.:20:32.

net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in

:20:33.:20:36.

migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --

:20:37.:20:47.

twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We

:20:48.:20:51.

set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and

:20:52.:20:56.

it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?

:20:57.:21:01.

Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to

:21:02.:21:06.

Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have

:21:07.:21:11.

become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that

:21:12.:21:15.

has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls

:21:16.:21:19.

from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have

:21:20.:21:23.

sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm

:21:24.:21:29.

debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the

:21:30.:21:34.

full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What

:21:35.:21:38.

that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this

:21:39.:21:43.

country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.

:21:44.:21:49.

Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people

:21:50.:21:54.

coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come

:21:55.:21:59.

to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of

:22:00.:22:04.

control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was

:22:05.:22:10.

that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern

:22:11.:22:13.

Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened

:22:14.:22:17.

with not having transitional controls in place. The Government

:22:18.:22:22.

didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way

:22:23.:22:27.

it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.

:22:28.:22:31.

We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened

:22:32.:22:35.

in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.

:22:36.:22:40.

We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries

:22:41.:22:44.

have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing

:22:45.:22:48.

countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am

:22:49.:22:53.

trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you

:22:54.:22:58.

lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have

:22:59.:23:01.

already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a

:23:02.:23:05.

transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would

:23:06.:23:08.

have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have

:23:09.:23:14.

brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in

:23:15.:23:17.

towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration

:23:18.:23:22.

because there are different kinds of migration. University students

:23:23.:23:25.

coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the

:23:26.:23:29.

other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the

:23:30.:23:32.

jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour

:23:33.:23:39.

market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of

:23:40.:23:42.

migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the

:23:43.:23:46.

lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go

:23:47.:23:52.

to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came

:23:53.:23:57.

from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder

:23:58.:24:01.

of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and

:24:02.:24:06.

the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are

:24:07.:24:11.

nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that

:24:12.:24:14.

immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a

:24:15.:24:20.

mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession

:24:21.:24:25.

groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the

:24:26.:24:29.

changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just

:24:30.:24:33.

asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system

:24:34.:24:37.

at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the

:24:38.:24:41.

number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought

:24:42.:24:44.

billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not

:24:45.:24:48.

distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is

:24:49.:24:52.

starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem

:24:53.:24:56.

is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not

:24:57.:25:00.

address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats

:25:01.:25:05.

university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low

:25:06.:25:09.

skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to

:25:10.:25:14.

bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we

:25:15.:25:17.

would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There

:25:18.:25:23.

is something called student visas, which is not included in the

:25:24.:25:27.

figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a

:25:28.:25:31.

figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They

:25:32.:25:42.

come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they

:25:43.:25:44.

come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to

:25:45.:25:47.

come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the

:25:48.:25:50.

system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate

:25:51.:25:52.

and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give

:25:53.:25:55.

us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have

:25:56.:26:00.

seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made

:26:01.:26:05.

a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is

:26:06.:26:28.

right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which

:26:29.:26:31.

we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to

:26:32.:26:34.

listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then

:26:35.:26:36.

she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has

:26:37.:26:39.

chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I

:26:40.:26:42.

think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and

:26:43.:26:44.

reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.

:26:45.:26:48.

OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00

:26:49.:26:52.

front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to

:26:53.:26:57.

fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that

:26:58.:27:01.

you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the

:27:02.:27:06.

Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.

:27:07.:27:11.

Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,

:27:12.:27:14.

and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have

:27:15.:27:23.

also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions

:27:24.:27:28.

dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not

:27:29.:27:33.

having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential

:27:34.:27:37.

increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth

:27:38.:27:41.

areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is

:27:42.:27:47.

about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over

:27:48.:27:50.

many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in

:27:51.:27:54.

the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People

:27:55.:27:58.

like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it

:27:59.:28:03.

leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens

:28:04.:28:08.

commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been

:28:09.:28:11.

the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of

:28:12.:28:17.

people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is

:28:18.:28:19.

about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working

:28:20.:28:22.

with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of

:28:23.:28:26.

their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved

:28:27.:28:30.

with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was

:28:31.:28:33.

to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you

:28:34.:28:40.

would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in

:28:41.:28:45.

all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is

:28:46.:28:48.

competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime

:28:49.:28:53.

and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point

:28:54.:28:56.

about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.

:28:57.:29:01.

It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of

:29:02.:29:08.

communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?

:29:09.:29:14.

Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised

:29:15.:29:19.

concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,

:29:20.:29:24.

Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million

:29:25.:29:30.

and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability

:29:31.:29:35.

at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.

:29:36.:29:40.

So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is

:29:41.:29:44.

which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out

:29:45.:29:55.

a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would

:29:56.:30:00.

be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't

:30:01.:30:04.

volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I

:30:05.:30:08.

think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented

:30:09.:30:13.

things and made it harder to get collaboration between police

:30:14.:30:18.

forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What

:30:19.:30:23.

is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't

:30:24.:30:29.

complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!

:30:30.:30:38.

In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential

:30:39.:30:42.

for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the

:30:43.:30:46.

Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game

:30:47.:30:52.

plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.

:30:53.:31:01.

In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you

:31:02.:31:04.

didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.

:31:05.:31:15.

Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling

:31:16.:31:32.

off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the

:31:33.:31:35.

scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of

:31:36.:31:41.

scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?

:31:42.:31:43.

There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and

:31:44.:31:46.

another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at

:31:47.:31:49.

conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain

:31:50.:32:01.

Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he

:32:02.:32:05.

may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of

:32:06.:32:10.

thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you

:32:11.:32:18.

ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be

:32:19.:32:23.

Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to

:32:24.:32:29.

be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of

:32:30.:32:37.

course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going

:32:38.:32:43.

to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader

:32:44.:32:45.

another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job

:32:46.:32:50.

Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It

:32:51.:32:56.

is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson

:32:57.:33:03.

to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so

:33:04.:33:06.

that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.

:33:07.:33:10.

And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man

:33:11.:33:12.

who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris

:33:13.:33:15.

replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the

:33:16.:33:21.

member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such

:33:22.:33:32.

a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives

:33:33.:33:37.

like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of

:33:38.:33:51.

London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the

:33:52.:33:54.

grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see

:33:55.:33:58.

him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not

:33:59.:34:05.

the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are

:34:06.:34:08.

not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably

:34:09.:34:17.

some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying

:34:18.:34:21.

and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one

:34:22.:34:25.

he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be

:34:26.:34:30.

implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he

:34:31.:34:37.

did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may

:34:38.:34:41.

have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying

:34:42.:34:46.

reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the

:34:47.:34:50.

job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours

:34:51.:34:56.

what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was

:34:57.:35:02.

born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be

:35:03.:35:07.

President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find

:35:08.:35:11.

that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,

:35:12.:35:17.

Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and

:35:18.:35:24.

if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the

:35:25.:35:28.

Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months

:35:29.:35:34.

time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has

:35:35.:35:39.

played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.

:35:40.:35:45.

He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party

:35:46.:35:48.

and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that

:35:49.:35:56.

he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in

:35:57.:36:01.

this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.

:36:02.:36:07.

It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron

:36:08.:36:11.

is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of

:36:12.:36:14.

strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that

:36:15.:36:20.

he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its

:36:21.:36:26.

hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.

:36:27.:36:30.

He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind

:36:31.:36:38.

of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who

:36:39.:36:43.

with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent

:36:44.:36:52.

intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be

:36:53.:36:57.

Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be

:36:58.:37:05.

tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to

:37:06.:37:12.

pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he

:37:13.:37:15.

believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of

:37:16.:37:20.

competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never

:37:21.:37:24.

been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,

:37:25.:37:34.

assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who

:37:35.:37:38.

will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic

:37:39.:37:45.

the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would

:37:46.:37:51.

help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to

:37:52.:38:00.

the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night. It

:38:01.:38:05.

is like dining with a film star. People are queueing up to speak to

:38:06.:38:10.

him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He

:38:11.:38:15.

has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to.

:38:16.:38:37.

In the East Midlands, the MP with billions of pounds of our money and

:38:38.:38:45.

it is all going abroad. It is the right thing to do and I think

:38:46.:38:49.

everyone should be proud of it. If you were to cut it to zero, it is

:38:50.:38:53.

not big enough to solve all the other problem is the UK says it has

:38:54.:38:58.

got. And the politician who says it is time to stop the bickering. My

:38:59.:39:06.

message to politicians is, grow up. Don't attack people personally, get

:39:07.:39:10.

on with the job. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and we're

:39:11.:39:13.

expecting a very grown up debate from our two guests, Nigel Mills,

:39:14.:39:16.

the Conservative MP for Amber Valley, and the extremely

:39:17.:39:18.

uncontroversial John Mann, Labour's Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our

:39:19.:39:21.

emergency services 0 Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our

:39:22.:39:22.

emergency services were raised again in the Commons this week. This time

:39:23.:39:27.

it was the Derbyshire Fire and Rescue Service, which is planning to

:39:28.:39:30.

reduce the number of stations from 31 to 20 and cut more than a hundred

:39:31.:39:35.

fire fighting jobs. The debate follows the deaths of four people,

:39:36.:39:38.

including two children, at a fire at North Wingfield in Derbyshire. It

:39:39.:39:42.

was called by the Chesterfield MP, Labour's Toby Perkins, but

:39:43.:39:45.

Derbyshire MPs from all sides expressed their concerns.

:39:46.:39:52.

At the moment, a fire engine will be at a life risk incident within ten

:39:53.:39:57.

minutes three quarters of the time and those deemed as the most

:39:58.:40:01.

vulnerable in over 80% of the cases. These plans would see a drop

:40:02.:40:13.

to 66%. Nigel Mills, what are your concerns?

:40:14.:40:21.

I can understand why they want to review their service. They have got

:40:22.:40:25.

budget pressures, but the measures in my area and talking about closing

:40:26.:40:33.

stations into towns completely, that is going 0

:40:34.:40:34.

stations into towns completely, that is going to cost them ?3 million

:40:35.:40:43.

upfront and ?150,000 a year. And what are your fears for

:40:44.:40:49.

Nottinghamshire, John? It is George Osborne's cuts, it is the wrong kind

:40:50.:40:59.

of cuts. We should resist this. It is the wrong kind of cuts and George

:41:00.:41:02.

Osborne should put the right money in. Brandon Lewis says the

:41:03.:41:11.

Derbyshire Fire Service has increased its reserves. They may be

:41:12.:41:17.

sensible decision to increase their savings so I think they have done

:41:18.:41:23.

the right thing to date. I don't think you can run an organisation on

:41:24.:41:30.

reserves. Brandon Lewis also said Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and

:41:31.:41:33.

Leicestershire were getting a grant to bring in a joint response system

:41:34.:41:38.

which could save ?8 million. So it is not all bad news. I am for

:41:39.:41:44.

progress. I am not for cutting my Fire service or anyone else's. My

:41:45.:41:49.

constituents expect a professional Fire service when they needed. We

:41:50.:41:54.

are not prepared to accept cuts. The government needs to change its mind,

:41:55.:41:58.

change its position and put the money in. George Osborne could do it

:41:59.:42:03.

next week. What are Derbyshire MP is going to do about this? I hope the

:42:04.:42:09.

fire authority will change their mind and look again at these

:42:10.:42:18.

savings. I think they should wait. There is no need for them to rush

:42:19.:42:24.

into some of these bad decisions. Could the Chancellor put more money

:42:25.:42:30.

in? I think we are still spending somewhere around ?100 billion more

:42:31.:42:34.

than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way 0

:42:35.:42:35.

than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way to deal with

:42:36.:42:35.

this. Well, he's the East Midlands MP with

:42:36.:42:39.

international clout and certainly the only one who's seeing his budget

:42:40.:42:43.

rising every year. Alan Duncan, the Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister

:42:44.:42:45.

in the Department for 0 Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister

:42:46.:42:46.

in the Department for International Development, which spent almost ?9

:42:47.:42:51.

billion last year. He's also the proud owner of Noodle, the

:42:52.:42:54.

parliamentary dog of the year, and he's given an exclusive insight into

:42:55.:42:58.

his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, 0

:42:59.:42:58.

his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, to our Political Editor,

:42:59.:42:59.

John Hess. At his office in Whitehall, Alan

:43:00.:43:07.

Duncan admits to having a personal Thunderbirds moment when

:43:08.:43:11.

international rescue calls. As Minister for International

:43:12.:43:14.

Development, he has to answer the real`life calls for humanitarian

:43:15.:43:15.

help. I 0 real`life calls for humanitarian

:43:16.:43:22.

help. I tease 0 real`life calls for humanitarian

:43:23.:43:23.

help. I tease William Hague and say we are the foreign office with a

:43:24.:43:28.

budget. Thunderbirds is part of our portfolio. We go where there are

:43:29.:43:32.

disasters and I think we are one of the best organisations in the world

:43:33.:43:35.

at getting people together to address those disasters. He was

:43:36.:43:39.

updating MPs this week on the UK's response to the Philippines

:43:40.:43:48.

disaster. It has gone out of the news but we have still got massive

:43:49.:44:06.

teams in the Philippines. There's the best part of ?100 million going

:44:07.:44:09.

into the Philippines, which will continue to go in over the months

:44:10.:44:12.

ahead for the reconstruction of properties and the restoration of

:44:13.:44:15.

livelihoods and the provision of food and control of disease. We've

:44:16.:44:18.

now got a large vaccination programme. Some people think we

:44:19.:44:38.

spend 10% on international development ` it's 1%. It's a big

:44:39.:44:43.

amount of money but it's not an enormous faction of government

:44:44.:44:46.

spending. Yes, it gives us enormous respect. We are the first wealthy

:44:47.:44:50.

country to commit to spend 0.7% of our national income on the poorest

:44:51.:44:55.

people in the world. We are preparing for the risk of an

:44:56.:44:58.

earthquake in Nepal. We know that over 0

:44:59.:44:59.

earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next 0

:45:00.:44:59.

earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next few years there will

:45:00.:45:03.

be cyclones in India and floods in Bangladesh and so you can prepare

:45:04.:45:07.

things by getting the right sort of buildings built so that when there

:45:08.:45:10.

is a flood they don't automatically get washed 0

:45:11.:45:11.

is a flood they don't automatically get washed away and we have a whole

:45:12.:45:15.

team of people and organisations who can leap into action at the press of

:45:16.:45:20.

a button in order to address the urgent humanitarian need caused by a

:45:21.:45:22.

disaster. When people knew I was coming 0

:45:23.:45:23.

disaster. When people knew I was coming to interview you, they said,

:45:24.:45:28.

"Ask Alan about Noodle". Ah, Noodle, my cockerpoo, the parliamentary dog

:45:29.:45:33.

of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping 0

:45:34.:45:34.

of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping on a Saturday,

:45:35.:45:37.

the constituents don't look up at me any more, they look down and say,

:45:38.:45:41.

"Hello, Noodle". I just carry the lead now.

:45:42.:45:50.

Alan Duncan making a strong case for overseas aid but we have just been

:45:51.:45:53.

talking about cuts to the fire service. Shouldn't strategy begin at

:45:54.:46:04.

home? `` charity. Yes. It is right that we play a big role in dealing

:46:05.:46:09.

with disasters like the Philippines but I can't justify spending

:46:10.:46:15.

taxpayers money at a time like this. I would have held at that increase

:46:16.:46:23.

until we deal with our own problems. But this is what Alan Duncan's job

:46:24.:46:29.

involves. That is the promises we had in our manifesto but I think it

:46:30.:46:32.

is the wrong thing at the wrong time. What do you think about the

:46:33.:46:41.

budget going up? It is all about David Cameron and Alan Duncan trying

:46:42.:46:45.

to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty 0

:46:46.:46:45.

to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty party. But what is

:46:46.:46:51.

happening? Most of the money in Nepal is going on road building in

:46:52.:46:56.

the capital. We have doubled the expenditure on projects in each of

:46:57.:47:00.

the countries we are in. There is no cost control, it is spend, spend,

:47:01.:47:05.

spend. Money is being thrown away and in the next couple of years we

:47:06.:47:09.

will see audit report saying, badly spent. The staff they are being told

:47:10.:47:14.

to get spending because the government wants to show how

:47:15.:47:21.

generous it is. What is the answer? At the moment we should be freezing

:47:22.:47:27.

the budget. I agree. We should be focusing on things that really need

:47:28.:47:33.

doing. What about soft power? Alan Duncan was talking about that and

:47:34.:47:36.

that gives us some clout, doesn't it? That is the theory. We deliver

:47:37.:47:43.

this through a lot of partner organisations. The people who see

:47:44.:47:47.

the benefits of those projects don't even know it is the UK doing it. It

:47:48.:47:53.

is right that we pay our share in disasters and in real problem spots

:47:54.:47:56.

but the amount we are spending is too much. That's soft power means

:47:57.:48:02.

the aid is value for money, doesn't it? Well spent aid is value for

:48:03.:48:07.

money but the government has literally doubled the spending next

:48:08.:48:14.

year. It is throwing money at any project. There is no cost control,

:48:15.:48:18.

there is no priority within it and we are literally pouring money down

:48:19.:48:23.

the drain. What do you think about overseas aid? Should we be cutting

:48:24.:48:29.

back on that, like everything else, or do people worse off than

:48:30.:48:32.

ourselves still deserve our help? We've been in Nottingham to find

:48:33.:48:34.

out. We need to look after our own before

:48:35.:48:40.

we start doing that. There are an awful lot of people in a lot worse

:48:41.:48:43.

condition than we are so it is something that needs to be spent.

:48:44.:48:47.

But monitored very carefully to make sure it goes to the right people. If

:48:48.:48:53.

we have got the money to be able to do it, it is good to be able to give

:48:54.:48:59.

it to charity. Some people can't even afford to put the heating on. I

:49:00.:49:04.

have just lost a friend through a heart attack and his postmortem has

:49:05.:49:08.

been put back because of the amount of people who have died since the

:49:09.:49:12.

cold setting. When you see things like India plug`in rockets in space

:49:13.:49:19.

and we are not looking after our own and giving them money, plus the fact

:49:20.:49:25.

that over the years a lot of the funding we have pudding polluted,

:49:26.:49:29.

stolen and never gets to the right people. My goodness me, it can never

:49:30.:49:39.

be too much, can it? But I suppose, like everybody, if you are human,

:49:40.:49:43.

you think we are in a mess here as well.

:49:44.:49:47.

Many people backing the concept of international aid but when chap very

:49:48.:49:51.

concerned about winter deaths in this country. It is a problem

:49:52.:49:58.

everywhere. It is a problem in Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills

:49:59.:49:59.

are so 0 Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills

:50:00.:50:02.

are so critical. There are people not switching on the energy because

:50:03.:50:06.

they can't afford to. People are dying and unnecessarily. That is

:50:07.:50:12.

what gets to people, isn't it? We are giving money abroad. We give

:50:13.:50:17.

more money than America when people are very concerned about putting

:50:18.:50:21.

their own heating on. I think that is why we should be using some of

:50:22.:50:24.

that 0 is why we should be using some of

:50:25.:50:27.

that money to help our own people. I hope the Chancellor will announce

:50:28.:50:31.

next week some reduction to green taxes and we should bring some of

:50:32.:50:35.

the bills down. What should he be doing right now in 0

:50:36.:50:36.

the bills down. What should he be doing right now in his Autumn

:50:37.:50:40.

statement? That is the one thing that has captured the public mood,

:50:41.:50:44.

the energy bills, and one thing we can do is reversed taxes so that we

:50:45.:50:52.

are not forcing bills on people. We can say we will reduce that ?130

:50:53.:50:56.

that is on people's bills that we have chosen to put there. What would

:50:57.:51:03.

you say, John? They should be cutting the bills. People can't

:51:04.:51:09.

afford these bills. I would renationalise the companies if it

:51:10.:51:12.

was up to me but if we can't do that, at least we should be forcing

:51:13.:51:16.

them to reduce the bills. They are making ridiculous amounts of profit

:51:17.:51:21.

at our expense and the most Bernabeu in society, it is hitting them the

:51:22.:51:24.

hardest and people are dying because of it. `` and rubble in society.

:51:25.:51:34.

Clearly the market has not worked as it should and that is something we

:51:35.:51:38.

have got to get right. Well, so far it's all been very

:51:39.:51:41.

civilised here, but it's not always like that when politicians debate.

:51:42.:51:45.

One local councillor has said we need to see more co`operation

:51:46.:51:49.

between the parties. The former mayor of 0

:51:50.:51:49.

between the parties. The former mayor of Derby, Lisa Higginbottom,

:51:50.:51:52.

has resigned from the Labour group to stand as an independent. She says

:51:53.:51:56.

she's fed up with the bickering and fighting which she says gets in the

:51:57.:52:00.

way of good decision making and lets the public down.

:52:01.:52:19.

I am Lisa Higginbottom and I am a councillor in the city of Derby and

:52:20.:52:24.

I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far 0

:52:25.:52:26.

I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far too much

:52:27.:52:28.

time in the council chamber allegedly debating when it is not

:52:29.:52:32.

actually debate. We are not debating policy, people are personally

:52:33.:52:36.

attacking each other and it is not good enough any more. The problem it

:52:37.:52:41.

causes is that people do not debate issues, ideas do not come to the

:52:42.:52:45.

table, and good ideas are turned down just because somebody is from a

:52:46.:52:49.

different party. We need to get the job done 0

:52:50.:52:50.

different party. We need to get the job done properly now. My views on

:52:51.:52:53.

how politicians behave was changed when I had the privilege of serving

:52:54.:52:58.

the city last year. You do get a different perspective. I was able to

:52:59.:53:03.

work with people from all parties to get results. That is why I made the

:53:04.:53:08.

decision to remove myself from a political party because I want to

:53:09.:53:12.

get results and I want to work with everybody. I believe people are fed

:53:13.:53:14.

up 0 0 everybody. I believe people are fed

:53:15.:53:15.

up of political parties and that they want people who are going to

:53:16.:53:19.

work for them and they don't want people just to say, I voted in a

:53:20.:53:23.

certain manner because I was told to.

:53:24.:53:31.

If the public says it is no longer acceptable to turn on the telly and

:53:32.:53:35.

see grown`ups are doing, and the public said they are not accepting

:53:36.:53:39.

that any more, you need to be on the television discussing things. I have

:53:40.:53:46.

seen some sixth formers debate better than politicians. We need to

:53:47.:53:52.

stop making excuses for politics and say it is not acceptable any more.

:53:53.:53:57.

It is not acceptable in business so it is not acceptable in the chamber

:53:58.:54:02.

to make personal attacks. My message to politicians is to grow up, take

:54:03.:54:07.

part in debate, don't attack people personally, get on with the job,

:54:08.:54:11.

conduct yourself in a businesslike fashion, the same as you would it be

:54:12.:54:14.

expected to do in any other world of work.

:54:15.:54:25.

Lisa Higginbottom, the former mayor of Derby, on why she's given up on

:54:26.:54:31.

political parties. But joining us in the studio, someone who thinks

:54:32.:54:33.

perhaps the answer is more parties, or at least his party. Mike Scott is

:54:34.:54:38.

from Left Unity, a new party launched this week aiming to offer

:54:39.:54:41.

voters a more left wing alternative to the current lot. Surely Lisa has

:54:42.:54:49.

got a point. The last thing we need is more parties. What we need is

:54:50.:54:57.

parties that actually do what people want. That is the problem. All the

:54:58.:55:02.

existing parties essentially represent themselves, they don't

:55:03.:55:07.

represent, certainly in terms of the Labour Party, it is not represent

:55:08.:55:10.

the people it was set up to represent. Why do we need your

:55:11.:55:13.

party? We intend 0 represent. Why do we need your

:55:14.:55:18.

party? We intend to be a bottom up party so we will not be saying to

:55:19.:55:22.

people, these are our policies, take it or leave it. We will be saying,

:55:23.:55:28.

what do you think we should do? We will 0

:55:29.:55:28.

what do you think we should do? We will be taking our cues from that.

:55:29.:55:33.

So this is the Labour Party's fault because you do not represent the

:55:34.:55:39.

people any more. I think it is an advert for the new Monty Python. The

:55:40.:55:45.

people's Revolutionary party. We have had these parties before. They

:55:46.:55:50.

get about ten votes and that is democracy and fair enough. But the

:55:51.:55:54.

real issues are, who should be running the country, what should the

:55:55.:55:59.

policies be to improve the country, and it is going to be Nigel's party

:56:00.:56:05.

against my party. You must be loving this, having these two sides

:56:06.:56:11.

squaring up like this? I think John is right that it is democracy and if

:56:12.:56:15.

people want to join a new party, that is up to them. I don't

:56:16.:56:21.

recognise this they would that parties are not listening to

:56:22.:56:24.

constituents. That is why I am trying to amend the Immigration

:56:25.:56:32.

Bill. I think we do try and listen but the more candidates the merrier.

:56:33.:56:38.

What do you stand for? What are your policies? The party was formed

:56:39.:56:47.

following the film produced last year by Ken Loach about the welfare

:56:48.:56:51.

state and how it was formed. Not Monty Python then? Not at all. There

:56:52.:57:00.

have been tiny groups before which are indistinct Schauble from each

:57:01.:57:04.

other but we're not going to be like that. 110 odd years ago the Labour

:57:05.:57:09.

Party was formed by trade unions and other organisations people said,

:57:10.:57:16.

they will never get anywhere. But by 1924, they were the government. We

:57:17.:57:20.

don't aim to be one of these small parties fiddling around at the

:57:21.:57:25.

edges. We aim to be a mass party aiming to replace the Labour Party.

:57:26.:57:30.

And look at the rise of UKIP for example. The problem is people

:57:31.:57:37.

abstaining. I am attempting to enthuse people to participate and

:57:38.:57:41.

vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at 0

:57:42.:57:43.

vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at a meeting `` a

:57:44.:57:51.

big group. I am very confident that they will vote. UKIP have had an

:57:52.:57:58.

impact on your party as well, Nigel. They have become a protest party on

:57:59.:58:04.

some issues. What we need is politicians of all parties to be

:58:05.:58:07.

talking about the issues that are really concerning people and the

:58:08.:58:10.

lady you showed in the video, she is right. She wants to see is talking

:58:11.:58:17.

about the big issues. Has that surprised you as a new MP, all the

:58:18.:58:26.

bickering? If people watch PMQs, they might think that is how we

:58:27.:58:30.

behave the rest of the time but most of the debates are instructive. You

:58:31.:58:35.

should watch me and Nigel in a committee. He says something

:58:36.:58:41.

sensible, I get up and backing, he is very embarrassed, and I call on

:58:42.:58:45.

his side to support me in backing him. It is not like that normally.

:58:46.:58:52.

The truth is, as an evil Tory, I want to get rid of him at the next

:58:53.:58:58.

election. But he is a decent human being, he has some good ideas, and I

:58:59.:59:04.

back them. Does the barracking and the bickering get the job done? It

:59:05.:59:10.

is absolutely awful. That is Monty Python. That is what we want to

:59:11.:59:15.

avoid. That is what most people think politics about and I think it

:59:16.:59:18.

is important that politics is reinvented so it actually does what

:59:19.:59:22.

people want. If you ask people what they want, they will say none of

:59:23.:59:28.

them will do what they want. And they are absolutely right. More than

:59:29.:59:32.

half the people who could vote in any election don't do so, either

:59:33.:59:36.

because they abstain or they are not even on the electoral register in

:59:37.:59:40.

the first place. Will you be fielding candidates? Yes, we will.

:59:41.:59:47.

We are looking to do something new in British politics that has not

:59:48.:59:50.

been done since the foundation of the Labour Party. That worked out

:59:51.:59:56.

all right to begin with. Thank you very much indeed. Time now for a

:59:57.:00:01.

round`up of the other political stories this week.

:00:02.:00:08.

A new report says East Midlands cities are taking a big hit in the

:00:09.:00:14.

cuts than wealthier areas in the south. The group that represents

:00:15.:00:18.

municipal councils says local authorities have lost ?160 more per

:00:19.:00:23.

head in funding compared with London. Nottingham City Council says

:00:24.:00:26.

it proves its claim that councils here are being unfairly hit. It

:00:27.:00:31.

could be back to the future for policing in Nottinghamshire. The

:00:32.:00:34.

police and crime commission wants volunteers to be Parish Dunstable

:00:35.:00:39.

's, a role not seen since the 1830s. The change of mind on the

:00:40.:00:42.

cigarette packaging has been welcomed by the East Midlands Labour

:00:43.:00:48.

MEP Glenys Wilmot. The government is looking out into losing plain

:00:49.:00:50.

packaging after it had previously been ruled out. Meanwhile, this

:00:51.:00:56.

sumptuous picture of the sun rising in Derbyshire was the winner in a

:00:57.:01:01.

contest organised by the Conservative MEP. The winner gets a

:01:02.:01:06.

trip to Brussels. And there is no truth in the rumour that the second

:01:07.:01:11.

prize was two trips to Brussels. That's the Sunday Politics in the

:01:12.:01:15.

East Midlands. Thanks to Nigel Mills and John Mann. Next week, Anna

:01:16.:01:19.

Soubry and Chris Leslie will be here. Now back to Andrew Neil.

:01:20.:01:24.

picked out. People thought he was touching on eugenics and things like

:01:25.:01:28.

that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George

:01:29.:01:45.

Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?

:01:46.:01:52.

All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by

:01:53.:01:58.

Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the

:01:59.:02:04.

government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic

:02:05.:02:08.

recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy

:02:09.:02:14.

prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last

:02:15.:02:18.

few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to

:02:19.:02:21.

readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that

:02:22.:02:26.

we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,

:02:27.:02:32.

people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were

:02:33.:02:36.

saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?

:02:37.:02:45.

Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be

:02:46.:02:49.

up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5

:02:50.:02:56.

million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre

:02:57.:03:00.

of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That

:03:01.:03:05.

was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were

:03:06.:03:10.

winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of

:03:11.:03:15.

living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about

:03:16.:03:20.

the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has

:03:21.:03:29.

been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes

:03:30.:03:36.

packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are

:03:37.:03:40.

with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.

:03:41.:03:45.

Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the

:03:46.:03:51.

triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That

:03:52.:03:55.

is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have

:03:56.:04:00.

stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,

:04:01.:04:03.

people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were

:04:04.:04:09.

talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have

:04:10.:04:16.

forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than

:04:17.:04:20.

it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national

:04:21.:04:26.

debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You

:04:27.:04:31.

are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on

:04:32.:04:37.

this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the

:04:38.:04:43.

foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne

:04:44.:04:46.

is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,

:04:47.:04:52.

it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel

:04:53.:04:57.

duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not

:04:58.:05:01.

changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for

:05:02.:05:06.

growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for

:05:07.:05:13.

giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of

:05:14.:05:20.

giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the

:05:21.:05:26.

headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were

:05:27.:05:31.

always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly

:05:32.:05:37.

better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably

:05:38.:05:42.

better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is

:05:43.:05:47.

basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business

:05:48.:05:52.

investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20

:05:53.:06:01.

devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.

:06:02.:06:04.

Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate

:06:05.:06:12.

about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not

:06:13.:06:16.

technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in

:06:17.:06:22.

terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about

:06:23.:06:28.

the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.

:06:29.:06:34.

So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?

:06:35.:06:39.

Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they

:06:40.:06:45.

are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no

:06:46.:06:51.

economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.

:06:52.:06:55.

That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves

:06:56.:07:02.

to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this

:07:03.:07:06.

evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the

:07:07.:07:07.

first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports

:07:08.:08:02.

unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They

:08:03.:08:07.

are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.

:08:08.:08:12.

We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why

:08:13.:08:15.

the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing

:08:16.:08:22.

the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips

:08:23.:08:26.

produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the

:08:27.:08:31.

Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London

:08:32.:08:36.

will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at

:08:37.:08:42.

all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been

:08:43.:08:45.

doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.

:08:46.:08:50.

I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British

:08:51.:08:57.

exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In

:08:58.:09:04.

20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational

:09:05.:09:08.

services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our

:09:09.:09:12.

strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can

:09:13.:09:18.

do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from

:09:19.:09:22.

something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one

:09:23.:09:29.

stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we

:09:30.:09:33.

exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to

:09:34.:09:39.

Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of

:09:40.:09:48.

Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange

:09:49.:09:53.

for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he

:09:54.:09:57.

has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we

:09:58.:10:04.

have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This

:10:05.:10:09.

trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of

:10:10.:10:13.

London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the

:10:14.:10:17.

date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.

:10:18.:10:22.

It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where

:10:23.:10:27.

we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month

:10:28.:10:34.

after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is

:10:35.:10:41.

difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes

:10:42.:10:44.

to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but

:10:45.:10:48.

when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,

:10:49.:10:53.

they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is

:10:54.:10:59.

very important. High-level delegations from other countries go

:11:00.:11:04.

to these places because the addict -- because they are important export

:11:05.:11:15.

markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,

:11:16.:11:20.

and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy

:11:21.:11:24.

cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in

:11:25.:11:30.

Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all

:11:31.:11:34.

sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above

:11:35.:11:40.

the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that

:11:41.:11:48.

on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now

:11:49.:11:52.

and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he

:11:53.:11:59.

may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,

:12:00.:12:02.

from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts

:12:03.:12:10.

that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level

:12:11.:12:15.

for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.

:12:16.:12:20.

They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The

:12:21.:12:26.

Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the

:12:27.:12:31.

40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer

:12:32.:12:35.

and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good

:12:36.:12:42.

hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or

:12:43.:12:45.

increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn

:12:46.:12:51.

Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the

:12:52.:12:57.

year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot

:12:58.:13:02.

complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's

:13:03.:13:07.

lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do

:13:08.:13:12.

they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,

:13:13.:13:14.

maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of

:13:15.:13:21.

that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins

:13:22.:13:25.

to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be

:13:26.:13:31.

assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for

:13:32.:13:34.

today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except

:13:35.:13:37.

on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and

:13:38.:13:40.

analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics

:13:41.:13:44.

special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:45.:13:46.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:47.:13:49.

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper and Liberal Democrat president Tim Farron.


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