Browse content similar to 01/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the | :01:02. | :01:11. | |
Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
And in the East Midlands, calling international rescue. The MP who | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
leads the country's response capital is now a crisis. Another | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
week, another strategy? Can this one deliver? | :01:34. | :01:45. | |
And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid. | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying, | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0 | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50 | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose, | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that. | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs, | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer. | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about | :08:08. | :08:16. | |
green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't | :08:27. | :08:34. | |
-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my | :08:56. | :09:09. | |
point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills. | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important. | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the | :10:23. | :10:32. | |
adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if | :10:47. | :10:56. | |
Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal? | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear, | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy. | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour, | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against | :12:09. | :12:21. | |
it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on | :12:27. | :12:38. | |
the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair | :13:32. | :13:43. | |
share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes, | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then. | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the | :15:16. | :15:28. | |
sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and | :15:39. | :15:48. | |
large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong", | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released | :16:16. | :16:17. | |
earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the | :16:58. | :16:57. | |
2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004. | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
The government has played down expectations that the skill of | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being | :17:21. | :17:31. | |
seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
series of measures that the Government still had time to bring | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example, | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well, | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
come from people who have come to Britain over many generations | :19:58. | :19:59. | |
contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed. | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- | :20:37. | :20:47. | |
twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong? | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour. | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
with not having transitional controls in place. The Government | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that. | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever. | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
because there are different kinds of migration. University students | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
is something called student visas, which is not included in the | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They | :25:32. | :25:42. | |
come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is | :26:06. | :26:28. | |
right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then | :26:35. | :26:36. | |
she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible. | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00 | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime. | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase, | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have | :27:15. | :27:23. | |
also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners? | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections, | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms. | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out | :29:45. | :29:55. | |
a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
things and made it harder to get collaboration between police | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! | :30:30. | :30:38. | |
In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris. | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language. | :31:05. | :31:15. | |
Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling | :31:16. | :31:32. | |
off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage? | :31:42. | :31:43. | |
There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain | :31:50. | :32:01. | |
Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader | :32:44. | :32:45. | |
another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader. | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man | :33:11. | :33:12. | |
who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such | :33:22. | :33:32. | |
a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of | :33:38. | :33:51. | |
London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably | :34:09. | :34:17. | |
some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal. | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane. | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week. | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind | :36:31. | :36:38. | |
of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes, | :37:25. | :37:34. | |
assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night. It | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
is like dining with a film star. People are queueing up to speak to | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to. | :38:16. | :38:37. | |
In the East Midlands, the MP with billions of pounds of our money and | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
it is all going abroad. It is the right thing to do and I think | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
everyone should be proud of it. If you were to cut it to zero, it is | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
not big enough to solve all the other problem is the UK says it has | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
got. And the politician who says it is time to stop the bickering. My | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
message to politicians is, grow up. Don't attack people personally, get | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
on with the job. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and we're | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
expecting a very grown up debate from our two guests, Nigel Mills, | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
the Conservative MP for Amber Valley, and the extremely | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
uncontroversial John Mann, Labour's Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
emergency services 0 Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our | :39:22. | :39:22. | |
emergency services were raised again in the Commons this week. This time | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
it was the Derbyshire Fire and Rescue Service, which is planning to | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
reduce the number of stations from 31 to 20 and cut more than a hundred | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
fire fighting jobs. The debate follows the deaths of four people, | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
including two children, at a fire at North Wingfield in Derbyshire. It | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
was called by the Chesterfield MP, Labour's Toby Perkins, but | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
Derbyshire MPs from all sides expressed their concerns. | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
At the moment, a fire engine will be at a life risk incident within ten | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
minutes three quarters of the time and those deemed as the most | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
vulnerable in over 80% of the cases. These plans would see a drop | :40:02. | :40:13. | |
to 66%. Nigel Mills, what are your concerns? | :40:14. | :40:21. | |
I can understand why they want to review their service. They have got | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
budget pressures, but the measures in my area and talking about closing | :40:26. | :40:33. | |
stations into towns completely, that is going 0 | :40:34. | :40:34. | |
stations into towns completely, that is going to cost them ?3 million | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
upfront and ?150,000 a year. And what are your fears for | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
Nottinghamshire, John? It is George Osborne's cuts, it is the wrong kind | :40:50. | :40:59. | |
of cuts. We should resist this. It is the wrong kind of cuts and George | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
Osborne should put the right money in. Brandon Lewis says the | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
Derbyshire Fire Service has increased its reserves. They may be | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
sensible decision to increase their savings so I think they have done | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
the right thing to date. I don't think you can run an organisation on | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
reserves. Brandon Lewis also said Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
Leicestershire were getting a grant to bring in a joint response system | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
which could save ?8 million. So it is not all bad news. I am for | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
progress. I am not for cutting my Fire service or anyone else's. My | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
constituents expect a professional Fire service when they needed. We | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
are not prepared to accept cuts. The government needs to change its mind, | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
change its position and put the money in. George Osborne could do it | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
next week. What are Derbyshire MP is going to do about this? I hope the | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
fire authority will change their mind and look again at these | :42:10. | :42:18. | |
savings. I think they should wait. There is no need for them to rush | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
into some of these bad decisions. Could the Chancellor put more money | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
in? I think we are still spending somewhere around ?100 billion more | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way 0 | :42:35. | :42:35. | |
than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way to deal with | :42:36. | :42:35. | |
this. Well, he's the East Midlands MP with | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
international clout and certainly the only one who's seeing his budget | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
rising every year. Alan Duncan, the Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister | :42:44. | :42:45. | |
in the Department for 0 Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister | :42:46. | :42:46. | |
in the Department for International Development, which spent almost ?9 | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
billion last year. He's also the proud owner of Noodle, the | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
parliamentary dog of the year, and he's given an exclusive insight into | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, 0 | :42:59. | :42:58. | |
his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, to our Political Editor, | :42:59. | :42:59. | |
John Hess. At his office in Whitehall, Alan | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
Duncan admits to having a personal Thunderbirds moment when | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
international rescue calls. As Minister for International | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
Development, he has to answer the real`life calls for humanitarian | :43:15. | :43:15. | |
help. I 0 real`life calls for humanitarian | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
help. I tease 0 real`life calls for humanitarian | :43:23. | :43:23. | |
help. I tease William Hague and say we are the foreign office with a | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
budget. Thunderbirds is part of our portfolio. We go where there are | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
disasters and I think we are one of the best organisations in the world | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
at getting people together to address those disasters. He was | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
updating MPs this week on the UK's response to the Philippines | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
disaster. It has gone out of the news but we have still got massive | :43:49. | :44:06. | |
teams in the Philippines. There's the best part of ?100 million going | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
into the Philippines, which will continue to go in over the months | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
ahead for the reconstruction of properties and the restoration of | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
livelihoods and the provision of food and control of disease. We've | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
now got a large vaccination programme. Some people think we | :44:19. | :44:38. | |
spend 10% on international development ` it's 1%. It's a big | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
amount of money but it's not an enormous faction of government | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
spending. Yes, it gives us enormous respect. We are the first wealthy | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
country to commit to spend 0.7% of our national income on the poorest | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
people in the world. We are preparing for the risk of an | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
earthquake in Nepal. We know that over 0 | :44:59. | :44:59. | |
earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next 0 | :45:00. | :44:59. | |
earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next few years there will | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
be cyclones in India and floods in Bangladesh and so you can prepare | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
things by getting the right sort of buildings built so that when there | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
is a flood they don't automatically get washed 0 | :45:11. | :45:11. | |
is a flood they don't automatically get washed away and we have a whole | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
team of people and organisations who can leap into action at the press of | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
a button in order to address the urgent humanitarian need caused by a | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
disaster. When people knew I was coming 0 | :45:23. | :45:23. | |
disaster. When people knew I was coming to interview you, they said, | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
"Ask Alan about Noodle". Ah, Noodle, my cockerpoo, the parliamentary dog | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping 0 | :45:34. | :45:34. | |
of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping on a Saturday, | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
the constituents don't look up at me any more, they look down and say, | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
"Hello, Noodle". I just carry the lead now. | :45:42. | :45:50. | |
Alan Duncan making a strong case for overseas aid but we have just been | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
talking about cuts to the fire service. Shouldn't strategy begin at | :45:54. | :46:04. | |
home? `` charity. Yes. It is right that we play a big role in dealing | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
with disasters like the Philippines but I can't justify spending | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
taxpayers money at a time like this. I would have held at that increase | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
until we deal with our own problems. But this is what Alan Duncan's job | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
involves. That is the promises we had in our manifesto but I think it | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
is the wrong thing at the wrong time. What do you think about the | :46:33. | :46:41. | |
budget going up? It is all about David Cameron and Alan Duncan trying | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty 0 | :46:46. | :46:45. | |
to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty party. But what is | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
happening? Most of the money in Nepal is going on road building in | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
the capital. We have doubled the expenditure on projects in each of | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
the countries we are in. There is no cost control, it is spend, spend, | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
spend. Money is being thrown away and in the next couple of years we | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
will see audit report saying, badly spent. The staff they are being told | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
to get spending because the government wants to show how | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
generous it is. What is the answer? At the moment we should be freezing | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
the budget. I agree. We should be focusing on things that really need | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
doing. What about soft power? Alan Duncan was talking about that and | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
that gives us some clout, doesn't it? That is the theory. We deliver | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
this through a lot of partner organisations. The people who see | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
the benefits of those projects don't even know it is the UK doing it. It | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
is right that we pay our share in disasters and in real problem spots | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
but the amount we are spending is too much. That's soft power means | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
the aid is value for money, doesn't it? Well spent aid is value for | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
money but the government has literally doubled the spending next | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
year. It is throwing money at any project. There is no cost control, | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
there is no priority within it and we are literally pouring money down | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
the drain. What do you think about overseas aid? Should we be cutting | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
back on that, like everything else, or do people worse off than | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
ourselves still deserve our help? We've been in Nottingham to find | :48:33. | :48:34. | |
out. We need to look after our own before | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
we start doing that. There are an awful lot of people in a lot worse | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
condition than we are so it is something that needs to be spent. | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
But monitored very carefully to make sure it goes to the right people. If | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
we have got the money to be able to do it, it is good to be able to give | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
it to charity. Some people can't even afford to put the heating on. I | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
have just lost a friend through a heart attack and his postmortem has | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
been put back because of the amount of people who have died since the | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
cold setting. When you see things like India plug`in rockets in space | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
and we are not looking after our own and giving them money, plus the fact | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
that over the years a lot of the funding we have pudding polluted, | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
stolen and never gets to the right people. My goodness me, it can never | :49:30. | :49:39. | |
be too much, can it? But I suppose, like everybody, if you are human, | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
you think we are in a mess here as well. | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
Many people backing the concept of international aid but when chap very | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
concerned about winter deaths in this country. It is a problem | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
everywhere. It is a problem in Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills | :49:59. | :49:59. | |
are so 0 Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
are so critical. There are people not switching on the energy because | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
they can't afford to. People are dying and unnecessarily. That is | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
what gets to people, isn't it? We are giving money abroad. We give | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
more money than America when people are very concerned about putting | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
their own heating on. I think that is why we should be using some of | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
that 0 is why we should be using some of | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
that money to help our own people. I hope the Chancellor will announce | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
next week some reduction to green taxes and we should bring some of | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
the bills down. What should he be doing right now in 0 | :50:36. | :50:36. | |
the bills down. What should he be doing right now in his Autumn | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
statement? That is the one thing that has captured the public mood, | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
the energy bills, and one thing we can do is reversed taxes so that we | :50:45. | :50:52. | |
are not forcing bills on people. We can say we will reduce that ?130 | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
that is on people's bills that we have chosen to put there. What would | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
you say, John? They should be cutting the bills. People can't | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
afford these bills. I would renationalise the companies if it | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
was up to me but if we can't do that, at least we should be forcing | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
them to reduce the bills. They are making ridiculous amounts of profit | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
at our expense and the most Bernabeu in society, it is hitting them the | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
hardest and people are dying because of it. `` and rubble in society. | :51:25. | :51:34. | |
Clearly the market has not worked as it should and that is something we | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
have got to get right. Well, so far it's all been very | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
civilised here, but it's not always like that when politicians debate. | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
One local councillor has said we need to see more co`operation | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
between the parties. The former mayor of 0 | :51:50. | :51:49. | |
between the parties. The former mayor of Derby, Lisa Higginbottom, | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
has resigned from the Labour group to stand as an independent. She says | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
she's fed up with the bickering and fighting which she says gets in the | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
way of good decision making and lets the public down. | :52:01. | :52:19. | |
I am Lisa Higginbottom and I am a councillor in the city of Derby and | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far 0 | :52:25. | :52:26. | |
I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far too much | :52:27. | :52:28. | |
time in the council chamber allegedly debating when it is not | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
actually debate. We are not debating policy, people are personally | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
attacking each other and it is not good enough any more. The problem it | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
causes is that people do not debate issues, ideas do not come to the | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
table, and good ideas are turned down just because somebody is from a | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
different party. We need to get the job done 0 | :52:50. | :52:50. | |
different party. We need to get the job done properly now. My views on | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
how politicians behave was changed when I had the privilege of serving | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
the city last year. You do get a different perspective. I was able to | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
work with people from all parties to get results. That is why I made the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
decision to remove myself from a political party because I want to | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
get results and I want to work with everybody. I believe people are fed | :53:13. | :53:14. | |
up 0 0 everybody. I believe people are fed | :53:15. | :53:15. | |
up of political parties and that they want people who are going to | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
work for them and they don't want people just to say, I voted in a | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
certain manner because I was told to. | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
If the public says it is no longer acceptable to turn on the telly and | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
see grown`ups are doing, and the public said they are not accepting | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
that any more, you need to be on the television discussing things. I have | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
seen some sixth formers debate better than politicians. We need to | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
stop making excuses for politics and say it is not acceptable any more. | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
It is not acceptable in business so it is not acceptable in the chamber | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
to make personal attacks. My message to politicians is to grow up, take | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
part in debate, don't attack people personally, get on with the job, | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
conduct yourself in a businesslike fashion, the same as you would it be | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
expected to do in any other world of work. | :54:15. | :54:25. | |
Lisa Higginbottom, the former mayor of Derby, on why she's given up on | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
political parties. But joining us in the studio, someone who thinks | :54:32. | :54:33. | |
perhaps the answer is more parties, or at least his party. Mike Scott is | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
from Left Unity, a new party launched this week aiming to offer | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
voters a more left wing alternative to the current lot. Surely Lisa has | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
got a point. The last thing we need is more parties. What we need is | :54:50. | :54:57. | |
parties that actually do what people want. That is the problem. All the | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
existing parties essentially represent themselves, they don't | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
represent, certainly in terms of the Labour Party, it is not represent | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
the people it was set up to represent. Why do we need your | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
party? We intend 0 represent. Why do we need your | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
party? We intend to be a bottom up party so we will not be saying to | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
people, these are our policies, take it or leave it. We will be saying, | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
what do you think we should do? We will 0 | :55:29. | :55:28. | |
what do you think we should do? We will be taking our cues from that. | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
So this is the Labour Party's fault because you do not represent the | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
people any more. I think it is an advert for the new Monty Python. The | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
people's Revolutionary party. We have had these parties before. They | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
get about ten votes and that is democracy and fair enough. But the | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
real issues are, who should be running the country, what should the | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
policies be to improve the country, and it is going to be Nigel's party | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
against my party. You must be loving this, having these two sides | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
squaring up like this? I think John is right that it is democracy and if | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
people want to join a new party, that is up to them. I don't | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
recognise this they would that parties are not listening to | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
constituents. That is why I am trying to amend the Immigration | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
Bill. I think we do try and listen but the more candidates the merrier. | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
What do you stand for? What are your policies? The party was formed | :56:39. | :56:47. | |
following the film produced last year by Ken Loach about the welfare | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
state and how it was formed. Not Monty Python then? Not at all. There | :56:52. | :57:00. | |
have been tiny groups before which are indistinct Schauble from each | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
other but we're not going to be like that. 110 odd years ago the Labour | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
Party was formed by trade unions and other organisations people said, | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
they will never get anywhere. But by 1924, they were the government. We | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
don't aim to be one of these small parties fiddling around at the | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
edges. We aim to be a mass party aiming to replace the Labour Party. | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
And look at the rise of UKIP for example. The problem is people | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
abstaining. I am attempting to enthuse people to participate and | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at 0 | :57:42. | :57:43. | |
vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at a meeting `` a | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
big group. I am very confident that they will vote. UKIP have had an | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
impact on your party as well, Nigel. They have become a protest party on | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
some issues. What we need is politicians of all parties to be | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
talking about the issues that are really concerning people and the | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
lady you showed in the video, she is right. She wants to see is talking | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
about the big issues. Has that surprised you as a new MP, all the | :58:18. | :58:26. | |
bickering? If people watch PMQs, they might think that is how we | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
behave the rest of the time but most of the debates are instructive. You | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
should watch me and Nigel in a committee. He says something | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
sensible, I get up and backing, he is very embarrassed, and I call on | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
his side to support me in backing him. It is not like that normally. | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
The truth is, as an evil Tory, I want to get rid of him at the next | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
election. But he is a decent human being, he has some good ideas, and I | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
back them. Does the barracking and the bickering get the job done? It | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
is absolutely awful. That is Monty Python. That is what we want to | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
avoid. That is what most people think politics about and I think it | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
is important that politics is reinvented so it actually does what | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
people want. If you ask people what they want, they will say none of | :59:23. | :59:28. | |
them will do what they want. And they are absolutely right. More than | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
half the people who could vote in any election don't do so, either | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
because they abstain or they are not even on the electoral register in | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
the first place. Will you be fielding candidates? Yes, we will. | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
We are looking to do something new in British politics that has not | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
been done since the foundation of the Labour Party. That worked out | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
all right to begin with. Thank you very much indeed. Time now for a | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
round`up of the other political stories this week. | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
A new report says East Midlands cities are taking a big hit in the | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
cuts than wealthier areas in the south. The group that represents | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
municipal councils says local authorities have lost ?160 more per | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
head in funding compared with London. Nottingham City Council says | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
it proves its claim that councils here are being unfairly hit. It | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
could be back to the future for policing in Nottinghamshire. The | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
police and crime commission wants volunteers to be Parish Dunstable | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
's, a role not seen since the 1830s. The change of mind on the | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
cigarette packaging has been welcomed by the East Midlands Labour | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
MEP Glenys Wilmot. The government is looking out into losing plain | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
packaging after it had previously been ruled out. Meanwhile, this | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
sumptuous picture of the sun rising in Derbyshire was the winner in a | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
contest organised by the Conservative MEP. The winner gets a | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
trip to Brussels. And there is no truth in the rumour that the second | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
prize was two trips to Brussels. That's the Sunday Politics in the | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
East Midlands. Thanks to Nigel Mills and John Mann. Next week, Anna | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
Soubry and Chris Leslie will be here. Now back to Andrew Neil. | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
picked out. People thought he was touching on eugenics and things like | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George | :01:29. | :01:45. | |
Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China? | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year, | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party? | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5 | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7. | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that, | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement, | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20 | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery. | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business. | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either? | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today. | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the | :07:07. | :07:07. | |
first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports | :07:08. | :08:02. | |
unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment. | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years. | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of | :09:40. | :09:48. | |
Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights. | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China, | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
very important. High-level delegations from other countries go | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
to these places because the addict -- because they are important export | :11:05. | :11:15. | |
markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there, | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes, | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy. | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue, | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:47. | :13:49. |