26/01/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


26/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including an interview with transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin.


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Politics. Politics.

:00:37.:00:42.

Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.

:00:43.:00:45.

He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back

:00:46.:00:50.

the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old

:00:51.:00:54.

Labour? If you go to work by public

:00:55.:00:57.

transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -

:00:58.:01:00.

again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's

:01:01.:01:04.

our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week

:01:05.:01:07.

across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?

:01:08.:01:12.

This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans

:01:13.:01:18.

In the East Midlands: The council`funded centre that finds

:01:19.:01:23.

jobs for migrant workers. A waste And with me - as always - the

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political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular

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they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate

:01:47.:01:48.

to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and

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they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami

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Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.

:02:06.:02:11.

Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour

:02:12.:02:15.

would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.

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But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,

:02:20.:02:23.

Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a

:02:24.:02:27.

return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is

:02:28.:02:29.

anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this

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morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open

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up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely

:02:36.:02:37.

with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances

:02:38.:02:39.

and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last

:02:40.:02:41.

few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the

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next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the

:02:46.:02:56.

deficit down, of course they do But to cut the top rate... It is foolish

:02:57.:03:02.

and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,

:03:03.:03:05.

pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get

:03:06.:03:10.

this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy

:03:11.:03:16.

work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now

:03:17.:03:23.

in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the

:03:24.:03:27.

political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new

:03:28.:03:31.

voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to

:03:32.:03:34.

vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people

:03:35.:03:42.

enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it

:03:43.:03:47.

is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving

:03:48.:03:52.

beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there

:03:53.:03:56.

has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the

:03:57.:03:59.

Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with

:04:00.:04:04.

their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done

:04:05.:04:09.

this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will

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have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony

:04:14.:04:19.

Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on

:04:20.:04:27.

how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things

:04:28.:04:32.

isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are

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going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push

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the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,

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?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All

:04:54.:04:58.

three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget

:04:59.:05:02.

surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12

:05:03.:05:07.

billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls

:05:08.:05:12.

is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate The

:05:13.:05:17.

contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what

:05:18.:05:22.

does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is

:05:23.:05:27.

cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question

:05:28.:05:30.

that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the

:05:31.:05:34.

Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its

:05:35.:05:39.

side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking

:05:40.:05:42.

difficult for them this morning Does it matter if Labour has

:05:43.:05:48.

business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this

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announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed

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Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a

:05:58.:06:01.

result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not

:06:02.:06:07.

to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a

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measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of

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things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has

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taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI

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don't want us to leave business Business is in a bit of a cleft

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stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls

:06:35.:06:36.

is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on

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that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They

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probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this

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is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what

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go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was

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introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate

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where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib

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Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick

:07:11.:07:13.

Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking

:07:14.:07:16.

confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of

:07:17.:07:18.

criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a

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Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's

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Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority

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as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone

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to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting

:07:36.:07:39.

him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly

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destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I

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would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to

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stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in

:07:57.:08:03.

trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard

:08:04.:08:09.

over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of

:08:10.:08:13.

women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I

:08:14.:08:19.

said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of

:08:20.:08:22.

Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I

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think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal

:08:32.:08:35.

Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say

:08:36.:08:39.

sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards

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legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.

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This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the

:08:49.:08:52.

leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due

:08:53.:08:57.

process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the

:08:58.:09:03.

Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the

:09:04.:09:07.

future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in

:09:08.:09:14.

the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses

:09:15.:09:18.

of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the

:09:19.:09:25.

simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the

:09:26.:09:29.

complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that

:09:30.:09:34.

arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?

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The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but

:09:40.:09:44.

if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some

:09:45.:09:50.

long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the

:09:51.:09:54.

innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due

:09:55.:09:57.

process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever

:09:58.:10:03.

did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing

:10:04.:10:06.

ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He

:10:07.:10:11.

refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that

:10:12.:10:14.

report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his

:10:15.:10:19.

membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a

:10:20.:10:24.

crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal

:10:25.:10:27.

action against the party by the man long credited with building its

:10:28.:10:30.

success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory

:10:31.:10:35.

MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the

:10:36.:10:38.

Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without

:10:39.:10:42.

any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather

:10:43.:10:46.

serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib

:10:47.:10:51.

Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into

:10:52.:10:56.

allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a

:10:57.:11:00.

constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these

:11:01.:11:05.

sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg

:11:06.:11:11.

ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most

:11:12.:11:16.

powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.

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Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already

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know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.

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You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two

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is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of

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coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak

:11:40.:11:42.

to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party

:11:43.:11:46.

veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a

:11:47.:11:53.

significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And

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here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all

:11:58.:12:03.

three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the

:12:04.:12:07.

outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon

:12:08.:12:10.

Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,

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"I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the

:12:15.:12:17.

candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen

:12:18.:12:23.

by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard

:12:24.:12:26.

thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to

:12:27.:12:34.

answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad

:12:35.:12:42.

politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic

:12:43.:12:46.

irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too

:12:47.:12:51.

democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed

:12:52.:12:54.

Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has

:12:55.:12:59.

to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it

:13:00.:13:06.

democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was

:13:07.:13:17.

voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was

:13:18.:13:23.

new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already

:13:24.:13:30.

hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long

:13:31.:13:34.

Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for

:13:35.:13:38.

them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this

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their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The

:13:43.:13:46.

third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in

:13:47.:13:50.

the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They

:13:51.:13:54.

do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris

:13:55.:14:00.

Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal

:14:01.:14:03.

Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a

:14:04.:14:07.

line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that

:14:08.:14:12.

the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that

:14:13.:14:16.

there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very

:14:17.:14:18.

difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is

:14:19.:14:23.

threatening through his friends these famous friends, to spill all

:14:24.:14:28.

the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the

:14:29.:14:32.

Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where

:14:33.:14:35.

they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in

:14:36.:14:39.

the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the

:14:40.:14:43.

summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a

:14:44.:14:49.

good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising

:14:50.:14:53.

authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.

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Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a

:14:57.:14:59.

leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic

:15:00.:15:04.

or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it

:15:05.:15:09.

is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over

:15:10.:15:15.

events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You

:15:16.:15:20.

don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has

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been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over

:15:33.:15:35.

whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well

:15:36.:15:38.

there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's

:15:39.:15:42.

the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail

:15:43.:15:45.

commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost

:15:46.:15:48.

of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while

:15:49.:15:54.

wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail

:15:55.:16:00.

users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out

:16:01.:16:05.

more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get

:16:06.:16:09.

to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European

:16:10.:16:15.

counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their

:16:16.:16:23.

average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like

:16:24.:16:28.

season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with

:16:29.:16:32.

ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are

:16:33.:16:36.

more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins

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me now for the Sunday Interview Welcome. You claim to be in the

:16:50.:16:54.

party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power

:16:55.:16:59.

rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up

:17:00.:17:06.

in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms

:17:07.:17:13.

by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten

:17:14.:17:19.

years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The

:17:20.:17:22.

Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the

:17:23.:17:32.

passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year

:17:33.:17:38.

in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing

:17:39.:17:44.

huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for

:17:45.:17:47.

the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending 500

:17:48.:17:54.

million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we

:17:55.:18:00.

are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will

:18:01.:18:06.

invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an

:18:07.:18:14.

expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season

:18:15.:18:18.

ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's

:18:19.:18:24.

look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost

:18:25.:18:30.

over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international

:18:31.:18:37.

cities. The British commuter is being ripped

:18:38.:18:52.

off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our

:18:53.:18:57.

railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge

:18:58.:19:01.

amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got

:19:02.:19:07.

here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White

:19:08.:19:22.

-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen

:19:23.:19:30.

transformational changes in our railway services and we need to

:19:31.:19:35.

carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started

:19:36.:19:41.

investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than

:19:42.:19:50.

our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy

:19:51.:19:58.

is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You

:19:59.:20:04.

is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to

:20:05.:20:06.

be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these

:20:07.:20:11.

figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their

:20:12.:20:18.

homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a

:20:19.:20:23.

reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway

:20:24.:20:26.

industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway

:20:27.:20:31.

20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to

:20:32.:20:41.

1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look

:20:42.:20:45.

1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German

:20:46.:20:46.

government, the Ministry of transport.

:20:47.:20:59.

They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to

:21:00.:21:06.

subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing

:21:07.:21:11.

British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are

:21:12.:21:17.

winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?

:21:18.:21:21.

They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more

:21:22.:21:26.

cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but

:21:27.:21:31.

overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still

:21:32.:21:37.

seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.

:21:38.:21:43.

Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the

:21:44.:21:49.

lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have

:21:50.:21:55.

stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised

:21:56.:22:01.

the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the

:22:02.:22:09.

lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for

:22:10.:22:15.

example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We

:22:16.:22:21.

are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is

:22:22.:22:24.

still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the

:22:25.:22:30.

rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you

:22:31.:22:35.

link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay

:22:36.:22:45.

for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton

:22:46.:22:48.

Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.

:22:49.:22:53.

billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we

:22:54.:22:58.

have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for

:22:59.:23:12.

it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until

:23:13.:23:15.

the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket

:23:16.:23:25.

has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the

:23:26.:23:31.

passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who

:23:32.:23:46.

has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our

:23:47.:23:49.

railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance

:23:50.:23:55.

right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the

:23:56.:24:00.

user of public transport. I don t accept that. They are paying the

:24:01.:24:08.

same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that

:24:09.:24:15.

there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record

:24:16.:24:23.

amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a

:24:24.:24:28.

time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters

:24:29.:24:33.

particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of

:24:34.:24:40.

living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,

:24:41.:24:44.

and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered

:24:45.:24:59.

new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,

:25:00.:25:04.

they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you

:25:05.:25:10.

are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did

:25:11.:25:15.

before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It

:25:16.:25:19.

is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for Why

:25:20.:25:29.

not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more

:25:30.:25:34.

pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we

:25:35.:25:38.

are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that

:25:39.:25:41.

is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,

:25:42.:25:47.

yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed

:25:48.:25:57.

two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your

:25:58.:26:01.

department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission

:26:02.:26:07.

to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now

:26:08.:26:12.

widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for

:26:13.:26:19.

purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it

:26:20.:26:24.

is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have

:26:25.:26:30.

extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to

:26:31.:26:40.

make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a

:26:41.:26:44.

different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.

:26:45.:26:58.

What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by

:26:59.:27:03.

Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and

:27:04.:27:08.

I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the

:27:09.:27:13.

end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the

:27:14.:27:18.

House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will

:27:19.:27:23.

get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the

:27:24.:27:29.

exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress

:27:30.:27:37.

through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have

:27:38.:27:44.

concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the

:27:45.:27:48.

line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure

:27:49.:27:58.

is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as

:27:59.:28:05.

chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are

:28:06.:28:09.

ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London

:28:10.:28:15.

we are building Crossrail, ?14. billion investment. There was a

:28:16.:28:19.

report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.

:28:20.:28:28.

Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in

:28:29.:28:36.

the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay

:28:37.:28:41.

people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on

:28:42.:28:48.

?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are

:28:49.:28:55.

very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we

:28:56.:28:59.

are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.

:29:00.:29:04.

It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather

:29:05.:29:09.

pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big

:29:10.:29:14.

rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national

:29:15.:29:18.

infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty

:29:19.:29:24.

so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and

:29:25.:29:28.

all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the

:29:29.:29:32.

Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what

:29:33.:29:36.

our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take

:29:37.:29:43.

them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many

:29:44.:29:52.

conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the

:29:53.:30:01.

immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and

:30:02.:30:07.

Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of

:30:08.:30:11.

migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been

:30:12.:30:16.

more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz

:30:17.:30:22.

greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days

:30:23.:30:26.

and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new

:30:27.:30:29.

Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from

:30:30.:30:35.

backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel

:30:36.:30:40.

Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians

:30:41.:30:52.

can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the

:30:53.:30:55.

amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there

:30:56.:31:03.

hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to

:31:04.:31:08.

restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to

:31:09.:31:13.

2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st

:31:14.:31:16.

Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350 000

:31:17.:31:22.

people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,

:31:23.:31:27.

especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in

:31:28.:31:32.

excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The

:31:33.:31:37.

real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,

:31:38.:31:43.

attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our

:31:44.:31:47.

people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to

:31:48.:31:52.

accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding

:31:53.:31:56.

principle of the European Union We were trying to keep the restrictions

:31:57.:32:01.

that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU

:32:02.:32:04.

membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't

:32:05.:32:09.

aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still

:32:10.:32:13.

recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK

:32:14.:32:18.

Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible

:32:19.:32:23.

recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is

:32:24.:32:27.

worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their

:32:28.:32:35.

accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a

:32:36.:32:38.

law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?

:32:39.:32:43.

Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in

:32:44.:32:50.

work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane

:32:51.:32:55.

Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach

:32:56.:33:00.

of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs

:33:01.:33:04.

have been particularly mindless because what they want to do

:33:05.:33:08.

wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say

:33:09.:33:14.

so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be

:33:15.:33:22.

going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.

:33:23.:33:25.

They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed

:33:26.:33:29.

to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so

:33:30.:33:35.

it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I

:33:36.:33:41.

think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount

:33:42.:33:45.

of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to

:33:46.:33:50.

achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get

:33:51.:33:53.

free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I

:33:54.:33:57.

think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking

:33:58.:34:01.

for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years

:34:02.:34:07.

while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about

:34:08.:34:11.

the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in

:34:12.:34:16.

the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they

:34:17.:34:21.

said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using

:34:22.:34:25.

their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the

:34:26.:34:30.

past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they

:34:31.:34:34.

take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating

:34:35.:34:39.

Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing

:34:40.:34:44.

people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party

:34:45.:34:49.

apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,

:34:50.:34:54.

Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather

:34:55.:34:59.

see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a

:35:00.:35:04.

very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute

:35:05.:35:08.

book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need

:35:09.:35:13.

to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU

:35:14.:35:17.

migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill

:35:18.:35:25.

without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the

:35:26.:35:30.

bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will

:35:31.:35:35.

depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking

:35:36.:35:41.

tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has

:35:42.:35:45.

been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed

:35:46.:35:50.

Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the

:35:51.:35:54.

Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for

:35:55.:36:01.

the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He

:36:02.:36:06.

hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this

:36:07.:36:12.

end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of

:36:13.:36:17.

amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We

:36:18.:36:21.

want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am

:36:22.:36:26.

proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the

:36:27.:36:29.

restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and

:36:30.:36:35.

driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more

:36:36.:36:40.

measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be -

:36:41.:36:47.

popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane

:36:48.:36:53.

Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and

:36:54.:36:57.

high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP

:36:58.:36:59.

councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last

:37:00.:37:02.

weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay

:37:03.:37:04.

marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to

:37:05.:37:08.

bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least

:37:09.:37:10.

UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.

:37:11.:37:20.

Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week

:37:21.:37:22.

ahead with our political panel. In the East Midlands: The

:37:23.:37:37.

council`funded centre that finds jobs for migrant workers. A waste of

:37:38.:37:41.

taxpayers' money or a vital service that's boosting our economy? This is

:37:42.:37:52.

what it is about. Great opportunities for people to get into

:37:53.:37:56.

employment and a job. And the threat to our ancient

:37:57.:37:58.

woodlands. Campaigners say dozens are at risk and want us to join the

:37:59.:38:05.

fight to save them. Tourists come to England from all over the world.

:38:06.:38:10.

They love the stories of Robin Hood. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and my

:38:11.:38:13.

guests today: The Amber Valley MP, Nigel Mills, and Labour's MP for

:38:14.:38:16.

Derby North, Chris Williamson. Welcome both. First, let's take a

:38:17.:38:19.

look at what feels like weekly reports of good news on the economy.

:38:20.:38:23.

This week, it was employment. The East Midlands has seen the biggest

:38:24.:38:26.

drop in unemployment in the country, down 22% over the last year, with

:38:27.:38:30.

our guests' home patches of Derby and Derbyshire doing particularly

:38:31.:38:41.

well. Unemployment rate of 78% in Amber Valley, but what kind of jobs?

:38:42.:38:48.

We are seeing great progress in the last year. Most of the jobs

:38:49.:39:05.

full`time once. Very good employers. There are some part`time jobs and

:39:06.:39:12.

there, but many people do want that. It's a good picture. Are you feeling

:39:13.:39:20.

the benefits and Derby North? We are seeing people's living standards

:39:21.:39:28.

under pressure. We also know that there has been a big increase in the

:39:29.:39:33.

number of part`time workers since the coalition government came to

:39:34.:39:37.

power in the East Midlands. But these figures look good. It's always

:39:38.:39:43.

welcome when people get work, but what kind of work are they getting?

:39:44.:39:47.

Are they able to improve their living standards? As a result of the

:39:48.:39:54.

policies that Nigel's party and the Liberal Democrats are putting

:39:55.:39:59.

through, people are put under pressure. You think we are

:40:00.:40:07.

performing more strongly here. Why do you think that is? The East

:40:08.:40:12.

Midlands 0 do you think that is? The East

:40:13.:40:13.

Midlands is a strong part of the region. We have got the

:40:14.:40:26.

manufacturing businesses here. When we think about people's living

:40:27.:40:30.

standards, we should also think that we have given them a sizeable tax

:40:31.:40:38.

cut. But surely as people find work, their living standards will rise? If

:40:39.:40:44.

they are unemployed, that should be the case, but the problem is people

:40:45.:40:48.

find themselves not that much better off when they find work. There has

:40:49.:40:55.

been an increase across the East Midlands in the number of people

:40:56.:40:57.

working part`time and a file in the number of full`time jobs. What

:40:58.:41:07.

sectors are growing currently? From my experience, we are seeing an

:41:08.:41:15.

increase in part`time work. It is probably, to some extent, in the

:41:16.:41:20.

retail sector. When we are definitely not seeing it was any

:41:21.:41:26.

increase in the public sector, which has seen a big shake`out in the

:41:27.:41:28.

number of jobs. 0 has seen a big shake`out in the

:41:29.:41:32.

number of jobs. People are losing well`paid jobs and finding

:41:33.:41:35.

themselves only able to get employment which pays less. Euro

:41:36.:41:42.

party predicted there was a loss of 1 million jobs but we have actually

:41:43.:41:53.

gained 1 million. `` your party. We have now got employment increasing

:41:54.:41:57.

wage is starting to rise. Well, alongside the economy and

:41:58.:42:00.

jobs, immigration is one of the most divisive issues in politics at the

:42:01.:42:03.

moment, and many say the two go hand`in`hand. So are migrant workers

:42:04.:42:07.

a boon to our economy or are there too many people here already,

:42:08.:42:10.

stretching our services to breaking point? Our reporter, Tim Parker, has

:42:11.:42:14.

been to an employment centre in Derby that's funded by council money

:42:15.:42:17.

and helps local people AND migrant workers to find jobs.

:42:18.:42:28.

This small busy centre finds itself on the front line of what is now the

:42:29.:42:34.

biggest debate British politics. The centre has helped migrants from many

:42:35.:42:40.

different places. The majority are from Eastern Europe and the

:42:41.:42:45.

Baltics. Our core purpose is to improve economic prosperity in the

:42:46.:42:49.

region. We work with young people, unemployed people, adults, women. We

:42:50.:42:54.

need to get them to do something better and give them aspiration.

:42:55.:43:02.

This is one of the quieter days. People queueing in there to get

:43:03.:43:06.

advice in here from staff and trained volunteers on how to get a

:43:07.:43:12.

job. This woman is from Lithuania. She first use the centre to help

:43:13.:43:19.

find work but now volunteers there. I am on a jobseeker's allowance. You

:43:20.:43:32.

can to volunteering jobs. It's an easy way to climb up, I think.

:43:33.:43:39.

Critics may question spending ?118,000 of money. The money is

:43:40.:43:47.

therefore disadvantaged, local people, and there are lots of other

:43:48.:43:56.

people who use our services. The council insists the money boost the

:43:57.:44:01.

local economy. In terms of the city, we are creating over 2500 jobs a

:44:02.:44:05.

year. People are accessing these jobs. This is what it is about:

:44:06.:44:21.

Creating opportunity for people. But whether it's value for money or

:44:22.:44:26.

not, with immigration so high up the political agenda, centres like this

:44:27.:44:29.

will continue to find themselves in the spotlight.

:44:30.:44:32.

Alan Graves, who's the East Midlands chair of UKIP, has joined us. A job

:44:33.:44:40.

centre funded by the council, finding work for Eastern European

:44:41.:44:44.

migrants must be UKIP's worst nightmare! Of course it is. We are

:44:45.:44:52.

talking about immigration which is the UKIP effect. These parties, nor

:44:53.:45:01.

trying to find the immigration affect... ?118,000 should not be

:45:02.:45:09.

spent on trying to find Eastern European 's jobs when we have 2.5

:45:10.:45:18.

million people unemployed. As a Derby MP, what do you make of all

:45:19.:45:27.

this? The funding for this project goes back to 2007. It came at a time

:45:28.:45:34.

when Alan was on the council, funnily enough. The important thing

:45:35.:45:43.

is this is not just about finding work for migrant workers. It's about

:45:44.:45:47.

finding employment opportunities for anybody out of work, and I think

:45:48.:45:54.

that is money well spent. This is money for the new communities. It is

:45:55.:46:06.

for Eastern European 's. The money is 0

:46:07.:46:06.

for Eastern European 's. The money is directly affecting them. They are

:46:07.:46:09.

the new communities in the Derby area. The council have just

:46:10.:46:18.

announced 350 job losses. Why do we spend that money on those 350 people

:46:19.:46:26.

that are being made redundant from the council? The key issue here is

:46:27.:46:35.

ensuring that exploitative employers don't use migrant labour to drive

:46:36.:46:40.

down the wage rates. We have heard horrendous stories about how migrant

:46:41.:46:44.

workers are being exploited and paid below the minimum wage. That is also

:46:45.:46:52.

the knock`on impact of wage rates and everyone else. That's what we

:46:53.:46:56.

should be tackling. You have been very active on this issue. What do

:46:57.:47:04.

you think about this? I would rather have people find work than live on

:47:05.:47:12.

benefits. And this centre is finding them jobs, so it's keeping them off

:47:13.:47:19.

benefits? Free movement within the EU, not to come and claim benefits.

:47:20.:47:32.

It would be interesting to see whether any of that happens. Is it a

:47:33.:47:36.

particular problem in the East Midlands? In parts of Lincolnshire,

:47:37.:47:45.

there have been larger issues. But we have 2.5 million unemployed young

:47:46.:47:56.

people. If the council wasn't going to have these people, where are they

:47:57.:48:01.

supposed to go to help? The real issue is we don't want mass

:48:02.:48:07.

immigration in this country. It is directly related to being a member

:48:08.:48:11.

of the EU. These two parties want to remain in the EU and so do the

:48:12.:48:16.

Liberal Democrats. UKIP are the only party with a solution. This centre

:48:17.:48:23.

have given us a breakdown of the people who use their services: 30%

:48:24.:48:29.

Asian, 30% Eastern European, 40% white British. They are helping lots

:48:30.:48:37.

of people, but do you think it is fair we spent ?118,000, not to the

:48:38.:48:50.

existing population? Are you worried about the threat of UKIP in Derby?

:48:51.:48:58.

Alan is plain to the lowest common denominator, trying to play on

:48:59.:49:06.

people's there. `` is playing. We benefited from immigration down the

:49:07.:49:12.

ages. What are people saying to you on the doorstep? People are

:49:13.:49:17.

concerned about the cost of living and whether they will be able to

:49:18.:49:22.

keep a roof over their heads and whether they will have a job at the

:49:23.:49:28.

end of the year. Mass immigration affects everything. Ed Miliband has

:49:29.:49:39.

called for a closing of the loophole that allows a employment agencies to

:49:40.:49:44.

exploit these migrant workers, and other workers, to paid below the

:49:45.:49:52.

going rate. Would you support that? I don't support any exploitation.

:49:53.:49:58.

Would you support closing that loophole, then? You have employment

:49:59.:50:08.

agencies exploiting workers and forcing them to work for less than

:50:09.:50:14.

the going rate. What seats to you propose to win here? The European

:50:15.:50:21.

elections are next. We have five candidates. We will win at least

:50:22.:50:26.

two, and possibly three. What target seats? Amber Valley is a very

:50:27.:50:33.

interesting area. Are you worried about that, Nigel? I have been very

:50:34.:50:51.

strong in these issues. My constituents are concerned about it.

:50:52.:51:04.

The economy was growing when the Tories came to power. As a

:51:05.:51:10.

consequence of the austerity measures the coalition is

:51:11.:51:19.

pursuing... Your party triggered the worst recession since the war!

:51:20.:51:24.

Personal insults are not what people want to hear about. They want to

:51:25.:51:29.

hear about the real issues, like mass immigration.

:51:30.:51:31.

A national campaign's been launched in the East Midlands to save

:51:32.:51:34.

Britain's ancient Woodlands. The Grantham`based Woodland Trust says

:51:35.:51:37.

almost 30 woods in our region are under threat from developers. It

:51:38.:51:40.

comes as the government considers a move to relax rules to allow

:51:41.:51:43.

builders to remove ancient trees if they plant new trees elsewhere. Des

:51:44.:51:48.

Coleman's been down to the woods to find out more.

:51:49.:51:58.

This place has not been touched for over 1000 years and it is reckoned

:51:59.:52:02.

one third of our forests are ancient woodlands. But campaigners now said

:52:03.:52:05.

they are under threat from developers and government agencies.

:52:06.:52:21.

You are head of conservation. What is it you want from people? At the

:52:22.:52:30.

Woodland Trust, we are passionate about ancient woodland and native

:52:31.:52:35.

trees. Our ancient woodlands are not protected. People seem to think that

:52:36.:52:39.

because they are special, they get automatic protection from planning,

:52:40.:52:48.

but that's not the case. What are your concerns? At the moment, the

:52:49.:52:53.

government have been talking about biodiversity offsetting, which

:52:54.:52:57.

allows developers and projects to think about creating new areas of

:52:58.:53:01.

habitat to make up for those that may be lost or damaged. We have

:53:02.:53:05.

always said that ancient woodland is our most precious resource and it

:53:06.:53:10.

cannot be replaced, so we don't think we can apply that approach to

:53:11.:53:14.

ancient trees and woods. They take so long to develop. Like here, with

:53:15.:53:21.

his beautiful oak trees, and the soil and wildlife, it has taken

:53:22.:53:25.

decades to develop. You can't replace it with a few new trees. We

:53:26.:53:29.

want people to join us in adding their voice. People can get onto the

:53:30.:53:37.

Woodland Trust website, look at our campaign and add their name on the

:53:38.:53:38.

list. Fair enough. In the depths of

:53:39.:53:55.

winter, this place is fairly bare. But in the summer, it will be full

:53:56.:53:59.

of leaves and lots of colour, as has been for hundreds of years, and

:54:00.:54:03.

campaigners hope that it will continue by hundreds of years into

:54:04.:54:12.

the future. Do you worry about the future of our

:54:13.:54:18.

ancient woodland? Are ancient woodlands are an incredibly

:54:19.:54:21.

important asset, but the government's planning policy is

:54:22.:54:30.

innate complete mess. `` is in a. But we need housing. There is a

:54:31.:54:38.

housing crisis in our country. Developers who are land banking must

:54:39.:54:43.

either use it or lose it. That way, we hope it will bring more

:54:44.:54:49.

development land into use, and it is important to visit the Brownfield

:54:50.:54:55.

policy as well. Nobody wants to see us lose our ancient woodland. If you

:54:56.:55:07.

have two derive a new railway... We need to protect those woodlands.

:55:08.:55:15.

What would you do? Development should be the last resort. It should

:55:16.:55:23.

be there is no other alternative. A lot of people would think these

:55:24.:55:25.

ancient woodlands are already protected. They have been under

:55:26.:55:37.

tremendous pressure. Moore does need to be done to protect this essential

:55:38.:55:43.

asset for the future generations. When developers cut down 10,000

:55:44.:55:48.

trees to make way for the M6 toll road, they did plant trees behind

:55:49.:55:54.

them. We need to distinguish between ancient another woodlands. `` and

:55:55.:56:03.

other woodlands. One of the things the government could do is exempt

:56:04.:56:08.

ancient woodland from the offsetting proposals they are talking about.

:56:09.:56:12.

Would you back the campaign to protect 0

:56:13.:56:12.

Would you back the campaign to protect these woodlands further?

:56:13.:56:17.

Yes, no one wants to see ancient woodland lost. An acid for the East

:56:18.:56:40.

Midlands. The Woodland Trust reckons up to 300 across the country are

:56:41.:56:43.

under threat. Once they are gone, they 0

:56:44.:56:43.

under threat. Once they are gone, they are gone. That's right, and

:56:44.:56:48.

that's why I think the government needs to look at this very

:56:49.:56:53.

carefully. The minimum ship `` the minimum step should be exempting

:56:54.:56:58.

woodlands from the offsetting proposition. Brownfield first,

:56:59.:57:05.

ensuring the land developers are hoarding inland backs are brought to

:57:06.:57:16.

the table. `` are hoarding in land banks. We put pressure on the

:57:17.:57:26.

developers? I have the same problem in my seat. We share the same

:57:27.:57:39.

housing area. I have got Brownfield sites which need to come back to

:57:40.:57:46.

life. That has to be the right way. We need housing.

:57:47.:57:52.

Now with our regular round`up of other stories in the East Midlands.

:57:53.:57:55.

Here's our political editor, John Hess, with 60 Seconds.

:57:56.:58:04.

The Liberal Democrats say they will fight any plans to go ahead with

:58:05.:58:12.

tracking. The former leader of Leicestershire

:58:13.:58:17.

county council has hinted he still has political ambitions. He left the

:58:18.:58:26.

Tories and is now an independent. I have been exonerated by the police

:58:27.:58:32.

but I have cooperated with them. It is not something I would 0

:58:33.:58:33.

but I have cooperated with them. It is not something I would like to go

:58:34.:58:36.

through again, but nevertheless, I am out on the other side and I am

:58:37.:58:44.

perfectly happy to take a wider role in politics.

:58:45.:58:52.

The campaigning Notts youngster who died from a brain tumour has been

:58:53.:58:54.

praised. We had the privilege of meeting Sam

:58:55.:59:07.

White and his family last year. He was a remarkable young man and our

:59:08.:59:10.

thoughts are with his family. And his mum, Pam, has told us she's

:59:11.:59:14.

delighted with the way the campaign's going and it could have a

:59:15.:59:22.

big impact for lots of people. Are you all right? Do you need a glass

:59:23.:59:27.

of water? What is on your agenda this week? I have got an important

:59:28.:59:36.

public meeting on Thursday. It closed due to asbestos. We also have

:59:37.:59:46.

the immigration bill back in Parliament. What about you, Chris?

:59:47.:59:57.

Over the weekend, I shall be knocking on a few doors and

:59:58.:00:04.

hopefully be meeting residents ahead of the upcoming council elections. I

:00:05.:00:08.

am also meeting firefighters in the week to look at the future of the

:00:09.:00:11.

Fire and rescue service and talk about the attacks they are coming

:00:12.:00:15.

under. That's the Sunday Politics in the

:00:16.:00:18.

East Midlands. Thanks to our guests, Nigel Mills and Chris Williamson.

:00:19.:00:21.

Next week, MPs Andrew Bridgen and Jon Ashworth will be here and we'll

:00:22.:00:24.

be discussing how politicians can encourage young people to vote. See

:00:25.:00:26.

you then. Now back to Andrew Neil. constituency, very pleased. Andrew,

:00:27.:00:41.

back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never

:00:42.:00:44.

far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself He

:00:45.:00:48.

was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked

:00:49.:00:50.

outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city

:00:51.:00:54.

firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also

:00:55.:01:01.

seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him

:01:02.:01:05.

on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the

:01:06.:01:08.

suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.

:01:09.:01:13.

We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel

:01:14.:01:20.

with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but

:01:21.:01:24.

definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in

:01:25.:01:30.

a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the

:01:31.:01:36.

floods on the gay marriage Bill The old party is focusing on the view of

:01:37.:01:41.

UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things

:01:42.:01:48.

before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on

:01:49.:01:55.

when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of

:01:56.:02:03.

all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a

:02:04.:02:06.

child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a

:02:07.:02:18.

foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor

:02:19.:02:24.

thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of

:02:25.:02:32.

embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing

:02:33.:02:37.

party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps

:02:38.:02:44.

on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.

:02:45.:02:48.

In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in

:02:49.:02:56.

May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for

:02:57.:03:00.

outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back

:03:01.:03:05.

to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.

:03:06.:03:10.

Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it

:03:11.:03:15.

would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.

:03:16.:03:20.

What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince

:03:21.:03:26.

Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as

:03:27.:03:31.

does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr

:03:32.:03:36.

candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people

:03:37.:03:40.

to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years

:03:41.:03:44.

that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going

:03:45.:03:48.

to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about

:03:49.:03:55.

your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it

:03:56.:03:58.

came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that

:03:59.:04:02.

party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know

:04:03.:04:07.

what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a

:04:08.:04:15.

grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for

:04:16.:04:20.

an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling

:04:21.:04:23.

gun deaths in the United States now almost one every week in some

:04:24.:04:28.

terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off

:04:29.:04:38.

him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into

:04:39.:04:42.

another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't

:04:43.:04:48.

think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this

:04:49.:04:53.

country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a

:04:54.:04:59.

Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to

:05:00.:05:04.

the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is

:05:05.:05:09.

terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other

:05:10.:05:14.

parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and

:05:15.:05:20.

embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not

:05:21.:05:26.

working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,

:05:27.:05:30.

if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the

:05:31.:05:35.

establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and

:05:36.:05:41.

embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take

:05:42.:05:47.

something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the

:05:48.:05:52.

following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's

:05:53.:05:56.

strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The

:05:57.:05:59.

electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat

:06:00.:06:05.

into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general

:06:06.:06:10.

election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will

:06:11.:06:18.

run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That

:06:19.:06:23.

sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,

:06:24.:06:27.

could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?

:06:28.:06:34.

The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political

:06:35.:06:38.

party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way

:06:39.:06:44.

it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do

:06:45.:06:50.

this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It

:06:51.:06:57.

would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.

:06:58.:07:08.

Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.

:07:09.:07:16.

Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching

:07:17.:07:22.

but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency

:07:23.:07:26.

commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming

:07:27.:07:31.

leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the

:07:32.:07:34.

show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that

:07:35.:07:37.

housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour

:07:38.:07:40.

Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the

:07:41.:07:43.

price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce

:07:44.:07:46.

what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable

:07:47.:07:53.

housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really

:07:54.:07:56.

important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23

:07:57.:08:04.

billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual

:08:05.:08:08.

builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.

:08:09.:08:12.

Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built

:08:13.:08:17.

170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve

:08:18.:08:25.

made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is

:08:26.:08:30.

a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a

:08:31.:08:34.

lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year

:08:35.:08:38.

and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest

:08:39.:08:43.

interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the

:08:44.:08:47.

system through the planning regulations. In London there is a

:08:48.:08:52.

gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be

:08:53.:08:56.

able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes

:08:57.:09:00.

where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond

:09:01.:09:08.

Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.

:09:09.:09:13.

You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about

:09:14.:09:17.

200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is

:09:18.:09:24.

helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty

:09:25.:09:27.

dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are

:09:28.:09:34.

to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked

:09:35.:09:39.

about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land

:09:40.:09:43.

as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going

:09:44.:09:47.

to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you

:09:48.:09:51.

have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the

:09:52.:09:56.

Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a

:09:57.:09:59.

political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.

:10:00.:10:04.

The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider

:10:05.:10:08.

in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational

:10:09.:10:14.

incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the

:10:15.:10:19.

Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an

:10:20.:10:23.

interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are

:10:24.:10:27.

stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at

:10:28.:10:31.

the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in

:10:32.:10:37.

quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest

:10:38.:10:40.

populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build

:10:41.:10:45.

homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is

:10:46.:10:50.

r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's

:10:51.:10:55.

been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.

:10:56.:11:01.

But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's

:11:02.:11:07.

an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is

:11:08.:11:11.

interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for

:11:12.:11:16.

development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on

:11:17.:11:21.

it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how

:11:22.:11:26.

quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the

:11:27.:11:31.

Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and

:11:32.:11:36.

Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a

:11:37.:11:41.

thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the

:11:42.:11:45.

energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use

:11:46.:11:51.

it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the

:11:52.:11:55.

50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent

:11:56.:12:00.

controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.

:12:01.:12:05.

They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in

:12:06.:12:10.

the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour

:12:11.:12:13.

supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The

:12:14.:12:17.

policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the

:12:18.:12:21.

party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying

:12:22.:12:26.

suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are

:12:27.:12:30.

tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when

:12:31.:12:35.

Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a

:12:36.:12:38.

superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think

:12:39.:12:43.

they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech

:12:44.:12:48.

on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a

:12:49.:12:53.

year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking

:12:54.:12:57.

about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael

:12:58.:13:02.

Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr

:13:03.:13:06.

Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to

:13:07.:13:09.

the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his

:13:10.:13:14.

office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes

:13:15.:13:18.

and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of

:13:19.:13:22.

Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that

:13:23.:13:26.

to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.

:13:27.:13:30.

That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is

:13:31.:13:33.

back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.

:13:34.:13:36.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:14:14.

Britain, with 120,000 soldiers is now at war with Germany

:14:15.:14:23.

This would be the first truly modern war.

:14:24.:14:30.

and resolve of entire populations against each other.

:14:31.:14:36.

A war that would turn the country upside down.

:14:37.:14:40.

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