Browse content similar to 09/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water, | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry? | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
a cleaner with no right to work here a cleaner with no right to work here | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
the machine politics of union fixes in the Labour Party, | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
In the East Midlands, the billion pound contract that's good news for | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
the whole economy. Plus calls for a full enquiry into British | :01:23. | :01:23. | |
involvement in one of disruption in the capital the Mayor | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground. All | :01:29. | :01:38. | |
of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts. | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
cleaner and some lost documents Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister. | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that. | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost was | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign Do | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour. | :05:08. | :05:15. | |
It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
has got a grip on the situation at last. | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled. | :05:52. | :06:03. | |
Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
have been asking for four years When you wander along a footpath by | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long? | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level. | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous. | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging, | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape. | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to | :12:24. | :12:32. | |
grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly. | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
people run their land rather than being told what to do by the | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union? | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this. | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
time. Last week saw the Labour Party | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions. | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
was elected Labour leader in 20 0 by the electoral college system which | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50% | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In | :15:51. | :15:59. | |
what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly we | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
teach our children, power via - fantastic British businesses, we | :16:42. | :16:50. | |
want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political | :16:54. | :17:02. | |
party. We haven't got much time The unions still have 50% of the vote at | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more | :17:09. | :17:24. | |
member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power | :17:25. | :17:34. | |
has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of | :17:35. | :17:43. | |
the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing. . | :17:59. | :18:07. | |
They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid | :18:39. | :18:48. | |
turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings, | :18:54. | :19:05. | |
your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful | :19:06. | :19:07. | |
than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to | :19:08. | :19:17. | |
than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get | :19:18. | :19:19. | |
to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give | :19:20. | :19:30. | |
them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us, | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is | :20:37. | :20:45. | |
advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not | :20:46. | :20:58. | |
-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the | :20:59. | :21:09. | |
FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief | :21:21. | :21:32. | |
executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
chairman of the chief executive With the greatest respect, you are | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100 | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the | :22:10. | :22:24. | |
FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones, | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a | :22:43. | :22:53. | |
single chairman from the FTSE 2 0, correct? I don't know all the | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss | :23:01. | :23:10. | |
of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto | :23:15. | :23:24. | |
for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you, | :23:25. | :23:34. | |
Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick | :23:35. | :23:47. | |
it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
think he was referring to the 5 p rate of tax is that he made some | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French | :24:56. | :25:08. | |
higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain - | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure, | :25:59. | :26:08. | |
though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That | :26:15. | :26:23. | |
was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
you get your way, the richest 1 currently account for 70 5% of all | :26:41. | :26:51. | |
tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
companies, the average managing director of that gets around | :27:11. | :27:24. | |
?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the .1% | :27:25. | :27:34. | |
of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
they go because you are going to take over half their income, you | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden We | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
have run out of time but thank you for being here. | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's | :29:08. | :29:31. | |
Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for | :29:53. | :29:54. | |
him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this | :29:59. | :30:08. | |
is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense | :30:09. | :30:19. | |
that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander s | :30:47. | :30:48. | |
recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain | :31:04. | :31:16. | |
his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if | :31:21. | :31:29. | |
we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
strategy was always likely as 2 15 approached, so is there evidence it | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
the country is back on its feet the Lib Dems are choosing the time to | :32:18. | :32:26. | |
step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer | :32:46. | :32:53. | |
Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard | :32:54. | :33:02. | |
Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks, | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
almost an enemy within strategy When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives, | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties. | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
Government because it would be easier for legislation. The | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
legislation you could not get through would not get through | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment, | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out. If | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support. | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
make our own case separately on. Do you get fed up when you hear | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
constant Lib Dem attacks on you? What makes me fed up is my own party | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
have this much more open debate. I would like to see my own party | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down | :37:19. | :37:27. | |
the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
voters to come back to the fold? The site is we have lost over half our | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election. I | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
will survive all the way to the election or will it break up | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from | :39:25. | :39:33. | |
the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made. | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
looking at In the East Midlands, celebrations | :39:44. | :39:58. | |
as a ?1 billion contract goes to one of our biggest manufacturers. It's | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure that the jobs that are | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
already they are going to last. And the Sikh community continues its | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
campaign for a full enquiry into how much help Britain gave in the | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
storming of the Golden Temple. With over 400,000 Sikhs within | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
Britain, we were just kicked in the face. | :40:20. | :40:29. | |
Good morning. My guests this week are the Derbyshire Conservative MP | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
for Mid`Derbyshire Pauline Latham and the Labour MP for Gedling Vernon | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
Coaker. Welcome to you both. Pauline, let's take a look at an | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
accusation that's been levelled at your party this week. That is the | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
lack of women on the front bench. When Labour were launching that | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
attack in the Commons this week, you were on the second row behind the | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
Prime Minister. How did it feel looking around and seeing ahead of | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
you that front row is all male? It isn't usually. We do have three | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
Cabinet ministers who are female, but it's not enough. I know David | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
Cameron wants to promote more, but we have got quite a lot at the lower | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
level of junior ministers who obviously cannot go straight into | :41:11. | :41:20. | |
the Cabinet. At the next reshuffle, you will see more women being | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
promoted. At the last election, we did go from 17 to 34. But that's a | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
huge increase. We are not doing enough and we do need to attract | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
more women. But we need women out there to apply. It is a serious | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
issue for your party. It is a serious issue for all parties. | :41:36. | :41:36. | |
Labour have had 0 serious issue for all parties. | :41:37. | :41:38. | |
Labour have had all women short lists. We have not gone down that | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
route because the party is against it. But the Liberals don't have | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
enough either. We must do better. Is your party taking this seriously? We | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
are taking and we have taken this seriously for years and that is why | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
we have seen a huge increase in the number of Labour MPs who are women. | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
31%. That is a huge increase. We are going to do more. If you look at it, | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
nearly half of the Shadow Cabinet are women. Over half, 55%, of seats | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
which are regarded as winnable or where Labour MPs are standing down, | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
women candidates are put into them. This is a huge issue for us, an | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
important issue and we have shown by the way we more properly reflect the | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
country than do the Conservatives. But it was funny seeing Rachel | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
Reeves this week wriggling to make sure she got as close to Miliband as | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
she could, telling other people to move. To make sure that it looked | :42:32. | :42:41. | |
worse for us. They had all women... Your had an all men front bench. The | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
accusation against the Tories is they are out of touch. And there you | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
are, an out of touch front bench. More 0 | :42:52. | :42:52. | |
are, an out of touch front bench. More men, there are more people that | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
went to Eton and Oxford than there are women in the Cabinet. We are | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
talking about women here. We need to attract more women. But we are told | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
we are not getting women applying because they think it is a difficult | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
job. They do not like the yah`boo politics. I don't mind it, I was | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
brought up in a male household. But I think that is putting women off. | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
There are women interested in politics out there, if they apply, | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
they might get the opportunity to come in. But you have to keep hold | :43:22. | :43:23. | |
of them once you have got them. Labour are losing them. And there | :43:24. | :43:38. | |
are Liberal Democrats going. But the fact of the matter is, the | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
Conservative Party are not only losing 0 | :43:42. | :43:41. | |
Conservative Party are not only losing them, they are not replacing | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
them. We have seen the issue with Jessica Lee standing down. Anne | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
McIntosh, one of the most senior women in the party, deselected and | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
told she was a silly little girl. It is a problem for all parties. More | :43:52. | :43:53. | |
of a 0 is a problem for all parties. More | :43:54. | :43:54. | |
of a problem for the Conservative Party, but a serious issue for us | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
all and we are addressing it. David Cameron wants to change it. But he | :43:59. | :44:06. | |
is going very slowly. A moment for the East Midlands to be | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
proud, that is how unions at Bombardier have reacted to news of a | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the 0 | :44:18. | :44:18. | |
?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the new Crossrail | :44:19. | :44:20. | |
line in London guarantees jobs at the plant for five years and could | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
generate hundreds more. It comes just two years after the firm missed | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
out on a similar contract for Thames Link. The mood is certainly | :44:28. | :44:28. | |
different there now. This is an area I'm very familiar | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
with because I grew up just down the road. Great news for Bombardier, | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
let's see how people feel about it. Tracey, Bombardier ` great news. | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
Fantastic news for me. I've not long had this cafe. About a year now. So | :44:48. | :44:57. | |
it is tremendous. We already do Bombardier here, but quite a few got | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
laid off just before Christmas so it is fantastic news for me. | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
It is great news for the town itself. The company. It's really | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
good news. It's going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure the jobs | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
that are really going to last. I think it is absolutely fantastic | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
news, not just for ourselves, but for the nation. Being a British | :45:20. | :45:30. | |
industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like 0 0 | :45:31. | :45:31. | |
industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like that, I can tell you | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
heard the news about Bombardier. Great news. I think it is smashing. | :45:35. | :45:42. | |
I'm pleased for them. Chief Executive of the local | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
enterprise partnership D2N2 is with us, David Ralph. Smiles all round | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
there. Everyone saying it will have a massive knock`on effect for the | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
whole Midlands. In what way? It is great for Bombardier and the supply | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
change there. Lots of firms out there who work with Bombardier and | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
we think there will be hundreds of jobs generated in Bombardier and the | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
smaller medium`sized enterprises as well. We have heard the unions say | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
that losing that Thames Link contract a couple of years ago | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
actually did the industry a favour in a way because it raised the | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
profile of manufacturing in this country. We are pushing very hard in | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
rail, planes, automobile sector, which is big in this part of the | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
world. With this agenda moving into manufacturing, we want to move away | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
from the public sector economy into more jobs in the private sector and | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
manufacturing. Losing Thames Link was very negative for this part of | :46:37. | :46:46. | |
the world. As well as the obvious joy, there is relief as well. Yes, | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
because jobs are now protected, there will be more jobs, 80 | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
apprenticeships needed. It is going to be a massive thing. That is just | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
the employment at Bombardier. We have got all the knock`on supply | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
chain and that is going to be fantastic for them. It gives them | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
more certainty. As politicians, we should be promoting our local | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
smaller and medium`sized companies and building on 0 | :47:09. | :47:09. | |
smaller and medium`sized companies and building on that. Derby is a | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
centre of excellence for engineering and we need to build on that and | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
have more companies coming into Derby to capitalise on that factor. | :47:18. | :47:26. | |
It is not just Derby, the whole of the East Midlands. There is a real | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
emphasis on manufacturing across the East Midlands. Derby is a linchpin | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
around rail and Rolls`Royce. But there are similar qualities in | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
Leicester and Nottingham. It sounds like the government's emphasis on | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
manufactureing is paying dividends. All of us welcome what has happened | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief 0 | :47:46. | :47:46. | |
with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief and a sense of joy. | :47:47. | :47:48. | |
Clearly, manufacturing is really important. I think, and I think | :47:49. | :47:57. | |
there is a consensus across parties about the fact that it is important, | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
it is the skills agenda, developing apprenticeships. It is important | :48:01. | :48:08. | |
that people go to university. But it is also the skills and engineering | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
and the skills and the other trades as well. Pauline, would the | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
government have dared not give this contract to Bombardier after what | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
happened with Thames Link? It was not the government's agenda, it was | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
Crossrail, it was down to them to decide. I did lobby Boris Johnson | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
very hard. But it was not ministers' decision. It was outside of | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
government. I am just so thrilled. Derby is now attracting other | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
businesses in. There will be better employment opportunities in | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
mid`Derbyshire. That has got to be a good thing. Now that Derby has got | :48:45. | :48:53. | |
it, how to we build on this? The rail sector is growing. That is | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
important. Let's have the HS2 Academy in this part of the world. | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
We would like to see that in Derby and in the D2N2 area. What are the | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
chances of that happening? I shall be lobbying very hard. But there are | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
other MPs lobbying as well. I will be doing my best to get it to Derby. | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
There is so much going on in the area, businesses are being attracted | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
here because of the engineering focus. If we get that academy in | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
Derby, that would be fantastic. What are you hoping in terms of the | :49:24. | :49:32. | |
knock`on effect? It gives a whole area of the region a boost. Just to | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
say, that whatever government it is, there is a role to play in this. If | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
somebody is not good enough, you cannot give them the contract. But | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
government procurement, government has a role to play. Let's look at | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
what British industry can do. With the East Midlands, that is around | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
engineering. The big thing that comes out of this is that Britain, | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
once again, led by the Midlands, is seeing manufacturing is important. | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
It took a long time to get to this Crossrail project. It is a different | :50:06. | :50:14. | |
economic model. The last boom time was based on the service sector and | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
London. And there's a sense of trying to rebalance the economy. The | :50:18. | :50:26. | |
East Midlands is leading that. We have the health and creative | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
industries... We will be encouraging further investment in skills. There | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
is no denying this is fantastic news. Let's play devil's advocate. | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
Is manufacturing really the future? It is not going to go back to the | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
days when Bombardier was employing thousands of people. The future is | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
advanced manufacturing. We have some of the highest level of skills and | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
technology in this part of the world. We have to train the | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
workforce. That is really important. We haven't talked about exporting, | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
this is a global market. We need the skills in the local area. There is a | :50:58. | :51:06. | |
high quality apprenticeships at Rolls`Royce, and there are other | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
apprenticeships coming through this. There are opportunities there. The | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
future is bright, but we have to make the most of it. In the East | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
Midlands, there is an offer you that you do not see elsewhere. The | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
knock`on effect to small businesses, they will be high skilled jobs and | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
that will be right 0 they will be high skilled jobs and | :51:27. | :51:28. | |
that will be right across our region as well. And we need for girls to go | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
into manufacturing and engineering. It is not the dirty, oily rag job | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
that it used to be. It is much more skilled opportunity. | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
Thank you, David Ralph. Celebrations in Derby. But there has | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
been anger elsewhere in the East Midlands. Many in the region's Sikh | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
communities in the area are not satisfied with the government's | :51:53. | :51:54. | |
account of how the British helped India to plan an assault on the Sikh | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
temple in Amritsar in 1984. Hundreds of people died when troops moved in | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
against Sikh militants. Some people put the death toll in the thousands. | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
This week, the government said British advice was limited and not | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
followed. The Indian home ministry put police | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
on alert all over India, warning them to stand by to protect public | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
areas. That warning was issued with the news that the Army had captured | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
the Golden Temple at Amritsar. It is seen as one of the most | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
significant events in in Sikh history. When the Indian army moved | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
against militants barricaded inside the Golden Temple, hundreds died. | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
Some accounts say thousands. It's never been forgotten by the Sikh | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
community here in the East Midlands. They were horrified to learn in | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
papers accidentally released earlier this month that the British | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
government had been asked for and provided help. | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
With over 400,000 Sikhs within Britain, you ask yourself, we were | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
just kicked in the face really. After pressure on the government, an | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
enquiry was quickly launched into what help the British had provided | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
30 years ago. The Cabinet Secretary's report | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
concludes that the nature of the UK's assistance was purely advisory, | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
limited and provided to the Indian government at an early stage in | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
their planning. The government is keenly aware of | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
the influence of the Sikh community, numbering hundreds of thousands in | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
the UK and many in marginal constituencies. | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
British Sikhs have made and continue to make a vital contribution to our | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
national life. From serving in two world wars to running businesses and | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
playing a massive part in our communities today. I never forget | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
this. Last year, the Prime Minister | :53:39. | :53:47. | |
visited Amritsar. But the results of the enquiry have not pleased | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
everyone in Leicester's Sikh community. | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
We want a full enquiry. We want an apology from the British government. | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
It's not a matter of the Sikh community only, it is a matter of | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
the whole community. Others acknowledge a complex issue | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
and feel the attack on the temple was inevitable. | :54:04. | :54:15. | |
What was she determined, Indira Gandhi did what was good for her. | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
You can investigate it as much as you like, but at the end of the day, | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
you will find that it was not in the British hand. | :54:26. | :54:27. | |
But many Sikhs still feel the issue is not being taken seriously by the | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
government and want to see a full public enquiry into British | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
involvement in one of the bloodiest chapter in their history. | :54:35. | :54:49. | |
We are joined now by Pramjit Singh Gill, a former Lib Dem MP. You have | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
had a meeting at government level. The government has responded, are | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
you happy? Can I say first of all that twice in | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
the last century in its time of need, Sikhs came to the aid of | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
Britain, fighting and dying in two world wars. Along the way, they won | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
a disproportionate number of Victoria Crosses. I think the | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
revelations came as a shock to Sikhs. In the UK and across the | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
world. Sikhs are angry and upset. They were shocking revelations. How | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
a UK government could be complicit in providing advice to India to | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
launch an attack on the holiest shrine. Naturally, there is a great | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
deal of upset. Give us an idea of how seriously... | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
The enormity of the attack. It is like as if the UK provided advice to | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
attack the Vatican, or perhaps the Kaaba in Mecca. It would evoke an | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
enormous reaction. Do you think the government has done | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
enough on this? This report is very comprehensive. They are talking | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
about 30,000 documents that have been through, 200 files, it is not | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
the government that has done it, it is a senior civil servant. They have | :55:56. | :56:08. | |
looked very hard and they cannot find that a lot of people... One | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
civil servant went out to help advise the Indian government. After | :56:13. | :56:14. | |
they advised 0 advise the Indian government. After | :56:15. | :56:15. | |
they advised the Indian government, things changed. There were many, | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
many more people in the temple. The Indian government had to make a | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
decision as to what it was going to do. I don't think they necessarily | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
used the advice that was given. Can I say, 0 | :56:27. | :56:26. | |
used the advice that was given. Can I say, it is wrong on principle, | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
morally wrong, to be advising a foreign country to launch an attack | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
on a holy shrine, regardless to the degree that it is taken on board. | :56:34. | :56:42. | |
What is Labour's view? Clearly, there are unanswered questions. | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
There are still documents that probably should be released that | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
have not been released. They were released accidentally? There are | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
still other documents that, for the confidence of the Sikh community who | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
have contributed enormously in the past and now, I think there is a | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
need for a full enquiry. The other thing that I think is important is | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
that the review that was done was just up until June 1984. There is a | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
need for us to look further at what happened after that as well. We met | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
with the Cabinet Secretary on 29 January and said, the remit of your | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
review, it is too narrow. It only goes up to June 1984. Later in that | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
year, there was a genocide of Sikhs in India. Some estimate more than | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
100,000 men, women and children were killed. What we are asking for now | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
is that there ought to be an independent, judge led enquiry which | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
can look at documentation that has not been released and for the | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
government to bring forward the release of that documentation. There | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
is still a lot of dissatisfaction over this and the Sikhs are a | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
powerful lobby. Are votes at stake because of this? It is inevitable | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
that Siks have been hurt and with the pain they are feeling, they are | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
going to say we 0 the pain they are feeling, they are | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
going to say we will have to demonstrate and reflect that in our | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
votes. We have got European elections coming on, local elections | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
and next year the general election. And we have a lot of Sikh | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
communities within our region. But it is about truth and justice. These | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
things are so important. People want to know what happened, what was the | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
justification, they want to know the truth and then they will make their | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
judgements. You have experience of government at that level, how do you | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
handle such a sensitive issue as this? To be fair to the Prime | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
Minister, if you look at the Bloody Sunday enquiry, lots of documents | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
were published and he had universal praise for that. As I have said, | :58:47. | :58:58. | |
there is a need for us to look at some of the documents that have not | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
been published, to look at those, a full enquiry. Will there be a full | :59:02. | :59:10. | |
enquiry now? It is going to depend on people like Vernon and Pauline, | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
whether they sign up to a full enquiry taking place. Clearly, there | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
is a demand out there for the truth to be told and I think the Sikhs, | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
given the gravity of the decision taken, that is the least they | :59:22. | :59:28. | |
deserve. I don't think anybody is saying we do not want the truth. We | :59:29. | :59:30. | |
want to 0 saying we do not want the truth. We | :59:31. | :59:32. | |
want to know what happened in 1984 and afterwards. I hope you're not | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
saying that the genocide you claim happened was something to do with | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
the British government. I'm sure it was not. Genocide is not from an | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
outside organisation, usually. The threat of saying if you do not do | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
what we want, we will vote against you... I'm just saying that people | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
will reflect in their votes the pain that they are feeling. In terms of | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
your point about the report, there were Ministry of Defence documents | :00:01. | :00:08. | |
that were destroyed in 2009. They were vital to shed light on this. | :00:09. | :00:18. | |
They knew full well... Some of the ones that were destroyed in the | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
Foreign Office were actually in other departments. A lot of stuff | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
has come out... Documents were destroyed and it was so serious... | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
It is something we will come back to. | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
Now other stories across the East Midlands. Here is 60 Seconds. | :00:32. | :00:42. | |
After a series of defections to UKIP, East Midlands conservatives | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
are celebrating someone coming the other way. Steve Hassall, a former | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
UKIP branch secretary, is standing for the Conservatives in May's | :00:52. | :01:02. | |
elections. MEP Emma McClarkin has welcomed an | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
EU ruling introducing a Europe wide licence to Internet music providers. | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
Another MEP is praising the European Parliament. The Liberal Democrat | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
Bill Newton Dunn has welcomed a law to strengthen rights for air | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
passengers. `` a 0 to strengthen rights for air | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
passengers. `` a move. Anyone would think there is an election coming. | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
Oh, there is. We will be choosing our next MEPs in May. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
Derby is becoming a sister city to Hebron in Palestine. After a visit | :01:29. | :01:44. | |
by the 0 Hebron in Palestine. After a visit | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
by the mayor of Derby, the city is to set up links between primary | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
schools and sponsor a student in the West Bank city. | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
What do you think about that? Hebron and Derby. I don't have a problem | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
with that, except Derby City Council say 0 | :01:57. | :01:57. | |
with that, except Derby City Council say they cannot afford this, that | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
and the other and they are cutting funding to worthwhile charities | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
while a jolly... Councillor Hussain paid for the | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
delegation out of his own pocket. That is very generous... | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
It wasn't a jolly. That is unfair to call it a jolly. | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
Thank you for being my guests. Next week, a special Sunday politics on | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
the crisis in our county councils ` thousands of jobs at risk, hundreds | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
of millions of pounds to cut. We'll be speaking to the people who make | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
those vital decisions on what jobs and what services have to go ` the | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
leaders of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, and Leicestershire | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
county councils ` and we'll be hearing from the people affected. | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
Londoners who otherwise may not have a voice. Both of you, thank you so | :02:46. | :02:57. | |
much. Andrew, it is back to you Can David Cameron get a grip on the | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
Government and the Government has taken over the running of the | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
put ahead of people if you like All of that is collapsing in very | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
and the first priority is the protection of life, second property | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge, | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then | :07:19. | :07:27. | |
they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is, | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
come second? It looks like that A poll this week showed that Labour is | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes But it could also take Labour votes | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird , | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange. | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
member for Bridgwater, be quiet if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order. | :10:35. | :10:52. | |
You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him We | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
Sunday Politics. | :13:54. | :14:01. |