09/02/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


09/02/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news on the floods, plus an interview with shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 09/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water,

:00:40.:00:47.

a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take

:00:48.:00:52.

control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry?

:00:53.:00:57.

Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns

:00:58.:01:01.

a cleaner with no right to work here a cleaner with no right to work here

:01:02.:01:05.

for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called

:01:06.:01:10.

the machine politics of union fixes in the Labour Party,

:01:11.:01:17.

In the East Midlands, the billion pound contract that's good news for

:01:18.:01:22.

the whole economy. Plus calls for a full enquiry into British

:01:23.:01:23.

involvement in one of disruption in the capital the Mayor

:01:24.:01:28.

Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground. All

:01:29.:01:38.

of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David

:01:39.:01:43.

Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two

:01:44.:01:49.

senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick

:01:50.:01:54.

Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their

:01:55.:01:58.

Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts.

:01:59.:02:03.

We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his

:02:04.:02:10.

cleaner and some lost documents Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his

:02:11.:02:14.

resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who

:02:15.:02:17.

worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the

:02:18.:02:22.

UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the

:02:23.:02:27.

honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister.

:02:28.:02:31.

Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything

:02:32.:02:38.

wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that

:02:39.:02:43.

standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good

:02:44.:02:47.

resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a

:02:48.:02:51.

similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that.

:02:52.:02:59.

Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason

:03:00.:03:03.

why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers

:03:04.:03:08.

will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most

:03:09.:03:14.

interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot

:03:15.:03:18.

anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there

:03:19.:03:25.

is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost was

:03:26.:03:31.

on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the

:03:32.:03:35.

embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will

:03:36.:03:39.

demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks

:03:40.:03:45.

to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the

:03:46.:03:49.

home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation

:03:50.:03:54.

letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the

:03:55.:04:00.

David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David

:04:01.:04:05.

Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state

:04:06.:04:14.

school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short

:04:15.:04:21.

supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it

:04:22.:04:26.

is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they

:04:27.:04:32.

will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked

:04:33.:04:37.

like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such

:04:38.:04:41.

a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for

:04:42.:04:49.

David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves

:04:50.:04:54.

everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is

:04:55.:05:02.

not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign Do

:05:03.:05:07.

not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour.

:05:08.:05:15.

It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more

:05:16.:05:19.

storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the

:05:20.:05:22.

Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it

:05:23.:05:26.

has got a grip on the situation at last.

:05:27.:05:34.

For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the

:05:35.:05:38.

village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been

:05:39.:05:44.

dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a

:05:45.:05:51.

tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled.

:05:52.:06:03.

Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who

:06:04.:06:09.

faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what

:06:10.:06:16.

we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that

:06:17.:06:20.

many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it

:06:21.:06:26.

wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of

:06:27.:06:32.

dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that

:06:33.:06:36.

took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging

:06:37.:06:41.

again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we

:06:42.:06:46.

will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a

:06:47.:06:52.

better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been

:06:53.:06:56.

seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the

:06:57.:07:00.

meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to

:07:01.:07:08.

evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a

:07:09.:07:14.

big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can

:07:15.:07:17.

believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution

:07:18.:07:22.

for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by

:07:23.:07:29.

the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by

:07:30.:07:35.

local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now

:07:36.:07:42.

want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it

:07:43.:07:47.

promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here

:07:48.:07:49.

knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems

:07:50.:07:55.

we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to

:07:56.:08:00.

carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not

:08:01.:08:07.

to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging

:08:08.:08:12.

become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers

:08:13.:08:19.

have been asking for four years When you wander along a footpath by

:08:20.:08:24.

a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity

:08:25.:08:31.

only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action

:08:32.:08:36.

right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing

:08:37.:08:43.

Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging

:08:44.:08:49.

had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long?

:08:50.:08:54.

Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers

:08:55.:09:00.

and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level.

:09:01.:09:04.

They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the

:09:05.:09:10.

level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend

:09:11.:09:16.

to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the

:09:17.:09:23.

overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve

:09:24.:09:28.

infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on

:09:29.:09:32.

the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can

:09:33.:09:39.

store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous.

:09:40.:09:44.

Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging

:09:45.:09:50.

is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But

:09:51.:09:58.

look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know

:09:59.:10:02.

this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a

:10:03.:10:07.

problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good

:10:08.:10:12.

system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are

:10:13.:10:17.

serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There

:10:18.:10:22.

are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging,

:10:23.:10:28.

the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is

:10:29.:10:34.

considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out

:10:35.:10:39.

of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the

:10:40.:10:45.

future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the

:10:46.:10:49.

drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have

:10:50.:10:56.

floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done

:10:57.:11:04.

more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not

:11:05.:11:08.

the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to

:11:09.:11:12.

see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I

:11:13.:11:18.

would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place

:11:19.:11:23.

needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape.

:11:24.:11:31.

Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document

:11:32.:11:39.

called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of

:11:40.:11:42.

the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that

:11:43.:11:47.

is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you

:11:48.:11:55.

signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have

:11:56.:12:03.

seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for

:12:04.:12:08.

weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are

:12:09.:12:13.

managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means

:12:14.:12:16.

cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in

:12:17.:12:23.

certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to

:12:24.:12:32.

grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the

:12:33.:12:36.

flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at

:12:37.:12:41.

doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly.

:12:42.:12:47.

Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the

:12:48.:12:53.

case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and

:12:54.:12:58.

we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last

:12:59.:13:03.

year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and

:13:04.:13:07.

everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister

:13:08.:13:11.

and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local

:13:12.:13:16.

people run their land rather than being told what to do by the

:13:17.:13:20.

Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union?

:13:21.:13:27.

The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this.

:13:28.:13:33.

They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to

:13:34.:13:37.

dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a

:13:38.:13:43.

comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental

:13:44.:13:47.

improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for

:13:48.:13:53.

wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The

:13:54.:13:58.

farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all

:13:59.:14:03.

signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that

:14:04.:14:08.

vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they

:14:09.:14:16.

pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and

:14:17.:14:21.

this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards

:14:22.:14:25.

and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and

:14:26.:14:30.

that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of

:14:31.:14:34.

time. Last week saw the Labour Party

:14:35.:14:38.

adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions.

:14:39.:14:43.

Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband

:14:44.:14:49.

was elected Labour leader in 20 0 by the electoral college system which

:14:50.:14:53.

gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would

:14:54.:14:58.

be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union

:14:59.:15:03.

member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They

:15:04.:15:08.

would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50%

:15:09.:15:16.

of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the

:15:17.:15:21.

National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as

:15:22.:15:25.

well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up

:15:26.:15:30.

to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in

:15:31.:15:35.

five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report

:15:36.:15:40.

saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a

:15:41.:15:47.

special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary

:15:48.:15:50.

Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In

:15:51.:15:59.

what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour

:16:00.:16:04.

Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have

:16:05.:16:08.

a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the

:16:09.:16:13.

monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general

:16:14.:16:18.

secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be

:16:19.:16:23.

in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that

:16:24.:16:28.

affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly we

:16:29.:16:32.

want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who

:16:33.:16:41.

teach our children, power via - fantastic British businesses, we

:16:42.:16:50.

want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in

:16:51.:16:53.

this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political

:16:54.:17:02.

party. We haven't got much time The unions still have 50% of the vote at

:17:03.:17:08.

Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more

:17:09.:17:24.

member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power

:17:25.:17:34.

has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of

:17:35.:17:43.

the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership

:17:44.:17:46.

contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one

:17:47.:17:52.

vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a

:17:53.:17:58.

member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing. .

:17:59.:18:07.

They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the

:18:08.:18:13.

Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes

:18:14.:18:18.

on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a

:18:19.:18:21.

system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of

:18:22.:18:27.

this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The

:18:28.:18:31.

old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid

:18:32.:18:38.

envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid

:18:39.:18:48.

turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if

:18:49.:18:53.

your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings,

:18:54.:19:05.

your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful

:19:06.:19:07.

than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to

:19:08.:19:17.

than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get

:19:18.:19:19.

to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give

:19:20.:19:30.

them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us,

:19:31.:19:37.

as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't

:19:38.:19:41.

have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their

:19:42.:19:45.

general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision,

:19:46.:19:50.

and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide

:19:51.:19:56.

that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto

:19:57.:20:01.

will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow

:20:02.:20:07.

people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do

:20:08.:20:12.

this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate

:20:13.:20:15.

for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have

:20:16.:20:21.

financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC

:20:22.:20:26.

and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the

:20:27.:20:32.

determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of

:20:33.:20:36.

income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is

:20:37.:20:45.

advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not

:20:46.:20:58.

-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the

:20:59.:21:09.

FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing

:21:10.:21:16.

Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed

:21:17.:21:20.

an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief

:21:21.:21:32.

executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one

:21:33.:21:41.

Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently

:21:42.:21:47.

chairman of the chief executive With the greatest respect, you are

:21:48.:21:51.

talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our

:21:52.:21:56.

country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100

:21:57.:22:02.

businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across

:22:03.:22:09.

the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the

:22:10.:22:24.

FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones,

:22:25.:22:29.

they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private

:22:30.:22:34.

sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized

:22:35.:22:38.

businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an

:22:39.:22:42.

important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a

:22:43.:22:53.

single chairman from the FTSE 2 0, correct? I don't know all the

:22:54.:23:00.

chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss

:23:01.:23:10.

of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but

:23:11.:23:14.

the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto

:23:15.:23:24.

for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you,

:23:25.:23:34.

Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick

:23:35.:23:47.

it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think

:23:48.:23:55.

you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting

:23:56.:24:01.

things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I

:24:02.:24:05.

think he was referring to the 5 p rate of tax is that he made some

:24:06.:24:08.

comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax

:24:09.:24:15.

from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has

:24:16.:24:19.

his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me

:24:20.:24:24.

come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't

:24:25.:24:28.

you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become

:24:29.:24:34.

counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates

:24:35.:24:39.

possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less

:24:40.:24:45.

money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which

:24:46.:24:51.

would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I

:24:52.:24:55.

mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French

:24:56.:25:08.

higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your

:25:09.:25:16.

pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more

:25:17.:25:23.

tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the

:25:24.:25:29.

level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach

:25:30.:25:35.

a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I

:25:36.:25:39.

give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain -

:25:40.:25:44.

the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can

:25:45.:25:50.

get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you

:25:51.:25:54.

wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in

:25:55.:25:58.

office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure,

:25:59.:26:08.

though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three

:26:09.:26:14.

years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That

:26:15.:26:23.

was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least

:26:24.:26:27.

possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you

:26:28.:26:33.

promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if

:26:34.:26:40.

you get your way, the richest 1 currently account for 70 5% of all

:26:41.:26:51.

tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of

:26:52.:26:58.

them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the

:26:59.:27:07.

top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover

:27:08.:27:10.

companies, the average managing director of that gets around

:27:11.:27:24.

?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the .1%

:27:25.:27:34.

of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over

:27:35.:27:39.

14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If

:27:40.:27:44.

they go because you are going to take over half their income, you

:27:45.:27:52.

have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at

:27:53.:27:59.

tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not

:28:00.:28:03.

controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not

:28:04.:28:08.

unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one

:28:09.:28:17.

other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example

:28:18.:28:25.

in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major

:28:26.:28:32.

economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are

:28:33.:28:38.

coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the

:28:39.:28:43.

fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden We

:28:44.:28:50.

have run out of time but thank you for being here.

:28:51.:28:54.

Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib

:28:55.:28:59.

Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should

:29:00.:29:01.

head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have

:29:02.:29:05.

continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other

:29:06.:29:07.

senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's

:29:08.:29:31.

Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school

:29:32.:29:34.

children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague

:29:35.:29:37.

schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the

:29:38.:29:40.

man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws

:29:41.:29:43.

is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the

:29:44.:29:45.

decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know

:29:46.:29:49.

the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When

:29:50.:29:52.

you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for

:29:53.:29:54.

him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he

:29:55.:29:58.

hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this

:29:59.:30:08.

is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense

:30:09.:30:19.

that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also

:30:20.:30:22.

understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove

:30:23.:30:26.

to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems

:30:27.:30:33.

think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the

:30:34.:30:36.

election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition

:30:37.:30:43.

post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more

:30:44.:30:46.

significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander s

:30:47.:30:48.

recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne

:30:49.:30:51.

to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this

:30:52.:30:54.

builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of

:30:55.:30:57.

people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice

:30:58.:31:00.

people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative

:31:01.:31:03.

policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain

:31:04.:31:16.

his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that

:31:17.:31:20.

we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if

:31:21.:31:29.

we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the

:31:30.:31:35.

Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation

:31:36.:31:38.

strategy was always likely as 2 15 approached, so is there evidence it

:31:39.:31:45.

works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge

:31:46.:31:49.

problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their

:31:50.:31:54.

coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what

:31:55.:31:57.

they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they

:31:58.:32:02.

are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of

:32:03.:32:08.

the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and

:32:09.:32:13.

irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and

:32:14.:32:17.

the country is back on its feet the Lib Dems are choosing the time to

:32:18.:32:26.

step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect

:32:27.:32:30.

coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the

:32:31.:32:36.

Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And

:32:37.:32:42.

with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to

:32:43.:32:45.

be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer

:32:46.:32:53.

Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard

:32:54.:33:02.

Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories

:33:03.:33:06.

on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to

:33:07.:33:12.

Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not

:33:13.:33:20.

privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for

:33:21.:33:24.

some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being

:33:25.:33:30.

sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks,

:33:31.:33:36.

almost an enemy within strategy When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws

:33:37.:33:41.

and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives,

:33:42.:33:49.

when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had

:33:50.:33:52.

a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of

:33:53.:33:57.

policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy

:33:58.:34:04.

within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw

:34:05.:34:09.

from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can

:34:10.:34:13.

put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky

:34:14.:34:18.

strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need

:34:19.:34:25.

the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the

:34:26.:34:31.

coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working

:34:32.:34:34.

together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most

:34:35.:34:39.

of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties.

:34:40.:34:47.

Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to

:34:48.:34:55.

see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority

:34:56.:35:00.

Government because it would be easier for legislation. The

:35:01.:35:05.

legislation you could not get through would not get through

:35:06.:35:09.

whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there

:35:10.:35:13.

probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment,

:35:14.:35:18.

despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much

:35:19.:35:23.

difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the

:35:24.:35:27.

committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government

:35:28.:35:31.

that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is

:35:32.:35:35.

important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and

:35:36.:35:41.

sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row

:35:42.:35:46.

goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it

:35:47.:35:51.

carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out. If

:35:52.:35:57.

it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within

:35:58.:36:03.

strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another

:36:04.:36:07.

16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never

:36:08.:36:11.

thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier

:36:12.:36:18.

Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support.

:36:19.:36:22.

Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a

:36:23.:36:25.

deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the

:36:26.:36:30.

Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to

:36:31.:36:36.

make our own case separately on. Do you get fed up when you hear

:36:37.:36:40.

constant Lib Dem attacks on you? What makes me fed up is my own party

:36:41.:36:45.

cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to

:36:46.:36:51.

have this much more open debate. I would like to see my own party

:36:52.:36:58.

leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal

:36:59.:37:01.

Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want

:37:02.:37:05.

to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can

:37:06.:37:10.

get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the

:37:11.:37:13.

Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a

:37:14.:37:18.

referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down

:37:19.:37:27.

the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from

:37:28.:37:32.

the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a

:37:33.:37:37.

representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a

:37:38.:37:42.

centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as

:37:43.:37:48.

many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem

:37:49.:37:54.

voters to come back to the fold? The site is we have lost over half our

:37:55.:37:58.

vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls

:37:59.:38:02.

of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election. I

:38:03.:38:08.

welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking

:38:09.:38:15.

about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the

:38:16.:38:18.

last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a

:38:19.:38:23.

much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make

:38:24.:38:27.

sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you

:38:28.:38:33.

want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition

:38:34.:38:38.

will survive all the way to the election or will it break up

:38:39.:38:44.

beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic

:38:45.:38:49.

plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to

:38:50.:38:52.

sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When

:38:53.:38:59.

will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but

:39:00.:39:03.

it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it

:39:04.:39:11.

will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many

:39:12.:39:16.

ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in

:39:17.:39:20.

the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we

:39:21.:39:24.

have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from

:39:25.:39:33.

the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made.

:39:34.:39:39.

You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be

:39:40.:39:43.

looking at In the East Midlands, celebrations

:39:44.:39:58.

as a ?1 billion contract goes to one of our biggest manufacturers. It's

:39:59.:40:01.

going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure that the jobs that are

:40:02.:40:08.

already they are going to last. And the Sikh community continues its

:40:09.:40:12.

campaign for a full enquiry into how much help Britain gave in the

:40:13.:40:16.

storming of the Golden Temple. With over 400,000 Sikhs within

:40:17.:40:19.

Britain, we were just kicked in the face.

:40:20.:40:29.

Good morning. My guests this week are the Derbyshire Conservative MP

:40:30.:40:32.

for Mid`Derbyshire Pauline Latham and the Labour MP for Gedling Vernon

:40:33.:40:35.

Coaker. Welcome to you both. Pauline, let's take a look at an

:40:36.:40:38.

accusation that's been levelled at your party this week. That is the

:40:39.:40:45.

lack of women on the front bench. When Labour were launching that

:40:46.:40:48.

attack in the Commons this week, you were on the second row behind the

:40:49.:40:53.

Prime Minister. How did it feel looking around and seeing ahead of

:40:54.:40:57.

you that front row is all male? It isn't usually. We do have three

:40:58.:41:03.

Cabinet ministers who are female, but it's not enough. I know David

:41:04.:41:06.

Cameron wants to promote more, but we have got quite a lot at the lower

:41:07.:41:10.

level of junior ministers who obviously cannot go straight into

:41:11.:41:20.

the Cabinet. At the next reshuffle, you will see more women being

:41:21.:41:23.

promoted. At the last election, we did go from 17 to 34. But that's a

:41:24.:41:27.

huge increase. We are not doing enough and we do need to attract

:41:28.:41:31.

more women. But we need women out there to apply. It is a serious

:41:32.:41:35.

issue for your party. It is a serious issue for all parties.

:41:36.:41:36.

Labour have had 0 serious issue for all parties.

:41:37.:41:38.

Labour have had all women short lists. We have not gone down that

:41:39.:41:43.

route because the party is against it. But the Liberals don't have

:41:44.:41:50.

enough either. We must do better. Is your party taking this seriously? We

:41:51.:41:54.

are taking and we have taken this seriously for years and that is why

:41:55.:41:59.

we have seen a huge increase in the number of Labour MPs who are women.

:42:00.:42:03.

31%. That is a huge increase. We are going to do more. If you look at it,

:42:04.:42:07.

nearly half of the Shadow Cabinet are women. Over half, 55%, of seats

:42:08.:42:12.

which are regarded as winnable or where Labour MPs are standing down,

:42:13.:42:16.

women candidates are put into them. This is a huge issue for us, an

:42:17.:42:20.

important issue and we have shown by the way we more properly reflect the

:42:21.:42:24.

country than do the Conservatives. But it was funny seeing Rachel

:42:25.:42:27.

Reeves this week wriggling to make sure she got as close to Miliband as

:42:28.:42:31.

she could, telling other people to move. To make sure that it looked

:42:32.:42:41.

worse for us. They had all women... Your had an all men front bench. The

:42:42.:42:45.

accusation against the Tories is they are out of touch. And there you

:42:46.:42:51.

are, an out of touch front bench. More 0

:42:52.:42:52.

are, an out of touch front bench. More men, there are more people that

:42:53.:42:55.

went to Eton and Oxford than there are women in the Cabinet. We are

:42:56.:43:03.

talking about women here. We need to attract more women. But we are told

:43:04.:43:06.

we are not getting women applying because they think it is a difficult

:43:07.:43:10.

job. They do not like the yah`boo politics. I don't mind it, I was

:43:11.:43:14.

brought up in a male household. But I think that is putting women off.

:43:15.:43:17.

There are women interested in politics out there, if they apply,

:43:18.:43:21.

they might get the opportunity to come in. But you have to keep hold

:43:22.:43:23.

of them once you have got them. Labour are losing them. And there

:43:24.:43:38.

are Liberal Democrats going. But the fact of the matter is, the

:43:39.:43:41.

Conservative Party are not only losing 0

:43:42.:43:41.

Conservative Party are not only losing them, they are not replacing

:43:42.:43:44.

them. We have seen the issue with Jessica Lee standing down. Anne

:43:45.:43:47.

McIntosh, one of the most senior women in the party, deselected and

:43:48.:43:51.

told she was a silly little girl. It is a problem for all parties. More

:43:52.:43:53.

of a 0 is a problem for all parties. More

:43:54.:43:54.

of a problem for the Conservative Party, but a serious issue for us

:43:55.:43:58.

all and we are addressing it. David Cameron wants to change it. But he

:43:59.:44:06.

is going very slowly. A moment for the East Midlands to be

:44:07.:44:09.

proud, that is how unions at Bombardier have reacted to news of a

:44:10.:44:17.

?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the 0

:44:18.:44:18.

?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the new Crossrail

:44:19.:44:20.

line in London guarantees jobs at the plant for five years and could

:44:21.:44:23.

generate hundreds more. It comes just two years after the firm missed

:44:24.:44:27.

out on a similar contract for Thames Link. The mood is certainly

:44:28.:44:28.

different there now. This is an area I'm very familiar

:44:29.:44:36.

with because I grew up just down the road. Great news for Bombardier,

:44:37.:44:41.

let's see how people feel about it. Tracey, Bombardier ` great news.

:44:42.:44:47.

Fantastic news for me. I've not long had this cafe. About a year now. So

:44:48.:44:57.

it is tremendous. We already do Bombardier here, but quite a few got

:44:58.:45:01.

laid off just before Christmas so it is fantastic news for me.

:45:02.:45:06.

It is great news for the town itself. The company. It's really

:45:07.:45:08.

good news. It's going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure the jobs

:45:09.:45:16.

that are really going to last. I think it is absolutely fantastic

:45:17.:45:19.

news, not just for ourselves, but for the nation. Being a British

:45:20.:45:30.

industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like 0 0

:45:31.:45:31.

industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like that, I can tell you

:45:32.:45:34.

heard the news about Bombardier. Great news. I think it is smashing.

:45:35.:45:42.

I'm pleased for them. Chief Executive of the local

:45:43.:45:45.

enterprise partnership D2N2 is with us, David Ralph. Smiles all round

:45:46.:45:48.

there. Everyone saying it will have a massive knock`on effect for the

:45:49.:45:52.

whole Midlands. In what way? It is great for Bombardier and the supply

:45:53.:45:57.

change there. Lots of firms out there who work with Bombardier and

:45:58.:46:01.

we think there will be hundreds of jobs generated in Bombardier and the

:46:02.:46:03.

smaller medium`sized enterprises as well. We have heard the unions say

:46:04.:46:07.

that losing that Thames Link contract a couple of years ago

:46:08.:46:10.

actually did the industry a favour in a way because it raised the

:46:11.:46:13.

profile of manufacturing in this country. We are pushing very hard in

:46:14.:46:21.

rail, planes, automobile sector, which is big in this part of the

:46:22.:46:26.

world. With this agenda moving into manufacturing, we want to move away

:46:27.:46:30.

from the public sector economy into more jobs in the private sector and

:46:31.:46:36.

manufacturing. Losing Thames Link was very negative for this part of

:46:37.:46:46.

the world. As well as the obvious joy, there is relief as well. Yes,

:46:47.:46:50.

because jobs are now protected, there will be more jobs, 80

:46:51.:46:53.

apprenticeships needed. It is going to be a massive thing. That is just

:46:54.:46:58.

the employment at Bombardier. We have got all the knock`on supply

:46:59.:47:02.

chain and that is going to be fantastic for them. It gives them

:47:03.:47:06.

more certainty. As politicians, we should be promoting our local

:47:07.:47:08.

smaller and medium`sized companies and building on 0

:47:09.:47:09.

smaller and medium`sized companies and building on that. Derby is a

:47:10.:47:13.

centre of excellence for engineering and we need to build on that and

:47:14.:47:17.

have more companies coming into Derby to capitalise on that factor.

:47:18.:47:26.

It is not just Derby, the whole of the East Midlands. There is a real

:47:27.:47:29.

emphasis on manufacturing across the East Midlands. Derby is a linchpin

:47:30.:47:33.

around rail and Rolls`Royce. But there are similar qualities in

:47:34.:47:36.

Leicester and Nottingham. It sounds like the government's emphasis on

:47:37.:47:42.

manufactureing is paying dividends. All of us welcome what has happened

:47:43.:47:45.

with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief 0

:47:46.:47:46.

with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief and a sense of joy.

:47:47.:47:48.

Clearly, manufacturing is really important. I think, and I think

:47:49.:47:57.

there is a consensus across parties about the fact that it is important,

:47:58.:48:00.

it is the skills agenda, developing apprenticeships. It is important

:48:01.:48:08.

that people go to university. But it is also the skills and engineering

:48:09.:48:12.

and the skills and the other trades as well. Pauline, would the

:48:13.:48:15.

government have dared not give this contract to Bombardier after what

:48:16.:48:20.

happened with Thames Link? It was not the government's agenda, it was

:48:21.:48:23.

Crossrail, it was down to them to decide. I did lobby Boris Johnson

:48:24.:48:28.

very hard. But it was not ministers' decision. It was outside of

:48:29.:48:35.

government. I am just so thrilled. Derby is now attracting other

:48:36.:48:41.

businesses in. There will be better employment opportunities in

:48:42.:48:44.

mid`Derbyshire. That has got to be a good thing. Now that Derby has got

:48:45.:48:53.

it, how to we build on this? The rail sector is growing. That is

:48:54.:48:59.

important. Let's have the HS2 Academy in this part of the world.

:49:00.:49:03.

We would like to see that in Derby and in the D2N2 area. What are the

:49:04.:49:08.

chances of that happening? I shall be lobbying very hard. But there are

:49:09.:49:12.

other MPs lobbying as well. I will be doing my best to get it to Derby.

:49:13.:49:17.

There is so much going on in the area, businesses are being attracted

:49:18.:49:20.

here because of the engineering focus. If we get that academy in

:49:21.:49:23.

Derby, that would be fantastic. What are you hoping in terms of the

:49:24.:49:32.

knock`on effect? It gives a whole area of the region a boost. Just to

:49:33.:49:36.

say, that whatever government it is, there is a role to play in this. If

:49:37.:49:40.

somebody is not good enough, you cannot give them the contract. But

:49:41.:49:46.

government procurement, government has a role to play. Let's look at

:49:47.:49:50.

what British industry can do. With the East Midlands, that is around

:49:51.:49:54.

engineering. The big thing that comes out of this is that Britain,

:49:55.:49:58.

once again, led by the Midlands, is seeing manufacturing is important.

:49:59.:50:05.

It took a long time to get to this Crossrail project. It is a different

:50:06.:50:14.

economic model. The last boom time was based on the service sector and

:50:15.:50:17.

London. And there's a sense of trying to rebalance the economy. The

:50:18.:50:26.

East Midlands is leading that. We have the health and creative

:50:27.:50:29.

industries... We will be encouraging further investment in skills. There

:50:30.:50:32.

is no denying this is fantastic news. Let's play devil's advocate.

:50:33.:50:35.

Is manufacturing really the future? It is not going to go back to the

:50:36.:50:39.

days when Bombardier was employing thousands of people. The future is

:50:40.:50:47.

advanced manufacturing. We have some of the highest level of skills and

:50:48.:50:51.

technology in this part of the world. We have to train the

:50:52.:50:54.

workforce. That is really important. We haven't talked about exporting,

:50:55.:50:57.

this is a global market. We need the skills in the local area. There is a

:50:58.:51:06.

high quality apprenticeships at Rolls`Royce, and there are other

:51:07.:51:09.

apprenticeships coming through this. There are opportunities there. The

:51:10.:51:15.

future is bright, but we have to make the most of it. In the East

:51:16.:51:20.

Midlands, there is an offer you that you do not see elsewhere. The

:51:21.:51:24.

knock`on effect to small businesses, they will be high skilled jobs and

:51:25.:51:26.

that will be right 0 they will be high skilled jobs and

:51:27.:51:28.

that will be right across our region as well. And we need for girls to go

:51:29.:51:31.

into manufacturing and engineering. It is not the dirty, oily rag job

:51:32.:51:36.

that it used to be. It is much more skilled opportunity.

:51:37.:51:42.

Thank you, David Ralph. Celebrations in Derby. But there has

:51:43.:51:47.

been anger elsewhere in the East Midlands. Many in the region's Sikh

:51:48.:51:52.

communities in the area are not satisfied with the government's

:51:53.:51:54.

account of how the British helped India to plan an assault on the Sikh

:51:55.:51:58.

temple in Amritsar in 1984. Hundreds of people died when troops moved in

:51:59.:52:02.

against Sikh militants. Some people put the death toll in the thousands.

:52:03.:52:05.

This week, the government said British advice was limited and not

:52:06.:52:09.

followed. The Indian home ministry put police

:52:10.:52:12.

on alert all over India, warning them to stand by to protect public

:52:13.:52:17.

areas. That warning was issued with the news that the Army had captured

:52:18.:52:24.

the Golden Temple at Amritsar. It is seen as one of the most

:52:25.:52:27.

significant events in in Sikh history. When the Indian army moved

:52:28.:52:30.

against militants barricaded inside the Golden Temple, hundreds died.

:52:31.:52:37.

Some accounts say thousands. It's never been forgotten by the Sikh

:52:38.:52:41.

community here in the East Midlands. They were horrified to learn in

:52:42.:52:44.

papers accidentally released earlier this month that the British

:52:45.:52:47.

government had been asked for and provided help.

:52:48.:52:52.

With over 400,000 Sikhs within Britain, you ask yourself, we were

:52:53.:52:56.

just kicked in the face really. After pressure on the government, an

:52:57.:52:59.

enquiry was quickly launched into what help the British had provided

:53:00.:53:03.

30 years ago. The Cabinet Secretary's report

:53:04.:53:05.

concludes that the nature of the UK's assistance was purely advisory,

:53:06.:53:08.

limited and provided to the Indian government at an early stage in

:53:09.:53:12.

their planning. The government is keenly aware of

:53:13.:53:15.

the influence of the Sikh community, numbering hundreds of thousands in

:53:16.:53:18.

the UK and many in marginal constituencies.

:53:19.:53:25.

British Sikhs have made and continue to make a vital contribution to our

:53:26.:53:29.

national life. From serving in two world wars to running businesses and

:53:30.:53:32.

playing a massive part in our communities today. I never forget

:53:33.:53:38.

this. Last year, the Prime Minister

:53:39.:53:47.

visited Amritsar. But the results of the enquiry have not pleased

:53:48.:53:50.

everyone in Leicester's Sikh community.

:53:51.:53:52.

We want a full enquiry. We want an apology from the British government.

:53:53.:53:55.

It's not a matter of the Sikh community only, it is a matter of

:53:56.:54:00.

the whole community. Others acknowledge a complex issue

:54:01.:54:03.

and feel the attack on the temple was inevitable.

:54:04.:54:15.

What was she determined, Indira Gandhi did what was good for her.

:54:16.:54:20.

You can investigate it as much as you like, but at the end of the day,

:54:21.:54:25.

you will find that it was not in the British hand.

:54:26.:54:27.

But many Sikhs still feel the issue is not being taken seriously by the

:54:28.:54:31.

government and want to see a full public enquiry into British

:54:32.:54:34.

involvement in one of the bloodiest chapter in their history.

:54:35.:54:49.

We are joined now by Pramjit Singh Gill, a former Lib Dem MP. You have

:54:50.:54:56.

had a meeting at government level. The government has responded, are

:54:57.:54:59.

you happy? Can I say first of all that twice in

:55:00.:55:04.

the last century in its time of need, Sikhs came to the aid of

:55:05.:55:07.

Britain, fighting and dying in two world wars. Along the way, they won

:55:08.:55:10.

a disproportionate number of Victoria Crosses. I think the

:55:11.:55:13.

revelations came as a shock to Sikhs. In the UK and across the

:55:14.:55:17.

world. Sikhs are angry and upset. They were shocking revelations. How

:55:18.:55:20.

a UK government could be complicit in providing advice to India to

:55:21.:55:23.

launch an attack on the holiest shrine. Naturally, there is a great

:55:24.:55:27.

deal of upset. Give us an idea of how seriously...

:55:28.:55:33.

The enormity of the attack. It is like as if the UK provided advice to

:55:34.:55:37.

attack the Vatican, or perhaps the Kaaba in Mecca. It would evoke an

:55:38.:55:42.

enormous reaction. Do you think the government has done

:55:43.:55:48.

enough on this? This report is very comprehensive. They are talking

:55:49.:55:51.

about 30,000 documents that have been through, 200 files, it is not

:55:52.:55:55.

the government that has done it, it is a senior civil servant. They have

:55:56.:56:08.

looked very hard and they cannot find that a lot of people... One

:56:09.:56:12.

civil servant went out to help advise the Indian government. After

:56:13.:56:14.

they advised 0 advise the Indian government. After

:56:15.:56:15.

they advised the Indian government, things changed. There were many,

:56:16.:56:18.

many more people in the temple. The Indian government had to make a

:56:19.:56:22.

decision as to what it was going to do. I don't think they necessarily

:56:23.:56:26.

used the advice that was given. Can I say, 0

:56:27.:56:26.

used the advice that was given. Can I say, it is wrong on principle,

:56:27.:56:29.

morally wrong, to be advising a foreign country to launch an attack

:56:30.:56:33.

on a holy shrine, regardless to the degree that it is taken on board.

:56:34.:56:42.

What is Labour's view? Clearly, there are unanswered questions.

:56:43.:56:47.

There are still documents that probably should be released that

:56:48.:56:52.

have not been released. They were released accidentally? There are

:56:53.:56:56.

still other documents that, for the confidence of the Sikh community who

:56:57.:56:59.

have contributed enormously in the past and now, I think there is a

:57:00.:57:06.

need for a full enquiry. The other thing that I think is important is

:57:07.:57:10.

that the review that was done was just up until June 1984. There is a

:57:11.:57:16.

need for us to look further at what happened after that as well. We met

:57:17.:57:23.

with the Cabinet Secretary on 29 January and said, the remit of your

:57:24.:57:28.

review, it is too narrow. It only goes up to June 1984. Later in that

:57:29.:57:34.

year, there was a genocide of Sikhs in India. Some estimate more than

:57:35.:57:38.

100,000 men, women and children were killed. What we are asking for now

:57:39.:57:43.

is that there ought to be an independent, judge led enquiry which

:57:44.:57:46.

can look at documentation that has not been released and for the

:57:47.:57:49.

government to bring forward the release of that documentation. There

:57:50.:57:55.

is still a lot of dissatisfaction over this and the Sikhs are a

:57:56.:57:58.

powerful lobby. Are votes at stake because of this? It is inevitable

:57:59.:58:03.

that Siks have been hurt and with the pain they are feeling, they are

:58:04.:58:05.

going to say we 0 the pain they are feeling, they are

:58:06.:58:07.

going to say we will have to demonstrate and reflect that in our

:58:08.:58:12.

votes. We have got European elections coming on, local elections

:58:13.:58:18.

and next year the general election. And we have a lot of Sikh

:58:19.:58:21.

communities within our region. But it is about truth and justice. These

:58:22.:58:29.

things are so important. People want to know what happened, what was the

:58:30.:58:33.

justification, they want to know the truth and then they will make their

:58:34.:58:36.

judgements. You have experience of government at that level, how do you

:58:37.:58:40.

handle such a sensitive issue as this? To be fair to the Prime

:58:41.:58:43.

Minister, if you look at the Bloody Sunday enquiry, lots of documents

:58:44.:58:46.

were published and he had universal praise for that. As I have said,

:58:47.:58:58.

there is a need for us to look at some of the documents that have not

:58:59.:59:01.

been published, to look at those, a full enquiry. Will there be a full

:59:02.:59:10.

enquiry now? It is going to depend on people like Vernon and Pauline,

:59:11.:59:14.

whether they sign up to a full enquiry taking place. Clearly, there

:59:15.:59:18.

is a demand out there for the truth to be told and I think the Sikhs,

:59:19.:59:21.

given the gravity of the decision taken, that is the least they

:59:22.:59:28.

deserve. I don't think anybody is saying we do not want the truth. We

:59:29.:59:30.

want to 0 saying we do not want the truth. We

:59:31.:59:32.

want to know what happened in 1984 and afterwards. I hope you're not

:59:33.:59:37.

saying that the genocide you claim happened was something to do with

:59:38.:59:41.

the British government. I'm sure it was not. Genocide is not from an

:59:42.:59:48.

outside organisation, usually. The threat of saying if you do not do

:59:49.:59:52.

what we want, we will vote against you... I'm just saying that people

:59:53.:59:56.

will reflect in their votes the pain that they are feeling. In terms of

:59:57.:00:00.

your point about the report, there were Ministry of Defence documents

:00:01.:00:08.

that were destroyed in 2009. They were vital to shed light on this.

:00:09.:00:18.

They knew full well... Some of the ones that were destroyed in the

:00:19.:00:21.

Foreign Office were actually in other departments. A lot of stuff

:00:22.:00:24.

has come out... Documents were destroyed and it was so serious...

:00:25.:00:29.

It is something we will come back to.

:00:30.:00:31.

Now other stories across the East Midlands. Here is 60 Seconds.

:00:32.:00:42.

After a series of defections to UKIP, East Midlands conservatives

:00:43.:00:46.

are celebrating someone coming the other way. Steve Hassall, a former

:00:47.:00:51.

UKIP branch secretary, is standing for the Conservatives in May's

:00:52.:01:02.

elections. MEP Emma McClarkin has welcomed an

:01:03.:01:06.

EU ruling introducing a Europe wide licence to Internet music providers.

:01:07.:01:12.

Another MEP is praising the European Parliament. The Liberal Democrat

:01:13.:01:16.

Bill Newton Dunn has welcomed a law to strengthen rights for air

:01:17.:01:17.

passengers. `` a 0 to strengthen rights for air

:01:18.:01:21.

passengers. `` a move. Anyone would think there is an election coming.

:01:22.:01:24.

Oh, there is. We will be choosing our next MEPs in May.

:01:25.:01:28.

Derby is becoming a sister city to Hebron in Palestine. After a visit

:01:29.:01:44.

by the 0 Hebron in Palestine. After a visit

:01:45.:01:46.

by the mayor of Derby, the city is to set up links between primary

:01:47.:01:50.

schools and sponsor a student in the West Bank city.

:01:51.:01:53.

What do you think about that? Hebron and Derby. I don't have a problem

:01:54.:01:56.

with that, except Derby City Council say 0

:01:57.:01:57.

with that, except Derby City Council say they cannot afford this, that

:01:58.:02:00.

and the other and they are cutting funding to worthwhile charities

:02:01.:02:02.

while a jolly... Councillor Hussain paid for the

:02:03.:02:09.

delegation out of his own pocket. That is very generous...

:02:10.:02:16.

It wasn't a jolly. That is unfair to call it a jolly.

:02:17.:02:23.

Thank you for being my guests. Next week, a special Sunday politics on

:02:24.:02:27.

the crisis in our county councils ` thousands of jobs at risk, hundreds

:02:28.:02:31.

of millions of pounds to cut. We'll be speaking to the people who make

:02:32.:02:34.

those vital decisions on what jobs and what services have to go ` the

:02:35.:02:37.

leaders of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, and Leicestershire

:02:38.:02:40.

county councils ` and we'll be hearing from the people affected.

:02:41.:02:45.

Londoners who otherwise may not have a voice. Both of you, thank you so

:02:46.:02:57.

much. Andrew, it is back to you Can David Cameron get a grip on the

:02:58.:03:02.

floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in

:03:03.:03:06.

the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the

:03:07.:03:09.

House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the

:03:10.:03:17.

weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a

:03:18.:03:23.

clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on

:03:24.:03:30.

the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment

:03:31.:03:37.

Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am

:03:38.:03:41.

really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was

:03:42.:03:46.

the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the

:03:47.:03:49.

Government and the Government has taken over the running of the

:03:50.:03:56.

environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious

:03:57.:04:00.

crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are

:04:01.:04:04.

dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed

:04:05.:04:11.

is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six

:04:12.:04:16.

months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the

:04:17.:04:21.

Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging

:04:22.:04:24.

and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were

:04:25.:04:30.

put ahead of people if you like All of that is collapsing in very

:04:31.:04:33.

difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for

:04:34.:04:39.

them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is

:04:40.:04:42.

acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments

:04:43.:04:47.

and the first priority is the protection of life, second property

:04:48.:04:51.

and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that

:04:52.:04:57.

framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord

:04:58.:05:01.

Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the

:05:02.:05:05.

summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is

:05:06.:05:09.

making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge,

:05:10.:05:14.

but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a

:05:15.:05:19.

whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the

:05:20.:05:25.

whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested

:05:26.:05:30.

in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the

:05:31.:05:35.

pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those

:05:36.:05:40.

towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can

:05:41.:05:43.

absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way

:05:44.:05:48.

we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew

:05:49.:05:52.

Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must

:05:53.:05:57.

be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the

:05:58.:06:01.

chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris

:06:02.:06:08.

Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the

:06:09.:06:12.

Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no

:06:13.:06:19.

angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good

:06:20.:06:25.

crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not

:06:26.:06:31.

understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of

:06:32.:06:35.

wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged

:06:36.:06:41.

on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the

:06:42.:06:45.

Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The

:06:46.:06:50.

great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be

:06:51.:06:54.

sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency

:06:55.:06:59.

spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird

:07:00.:07:04.

sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village

:07:05.:07:10.

which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some

:07:11.:07:13.

farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put

:07:14.:07:18.

a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then

:07:19.:07:27.

they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird

:07:28.:07:30.

sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the

:07:31.:07:36.

Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency

:07:37.:07:41.

There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does

:07:42.:07:47.

what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a

:07:48.:07:53.

plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do

:07:54.:07:58.

will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe

:07:59.:08:05.

by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably

:08:06.:08:10.

incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It

:08:11.:08:15.

would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is,

:08:16.:08:20.

does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was

:08:21.:08:27.

showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is

:08:28.:08:33.

UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The

:08:34.:08:37.

Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in

:08:38.:08:42.

and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories

:08:43.:08:46.

lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP

:08:47.:08:54.

come second? It looks like that A poll this week showed that Labour is

:08:55.:09:00.

way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election

:09:01.:09:05.

for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should

:09:06.:09:09.

still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If

:09:10.:09:12.

they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in

:09:13.:09:18.

Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP

:09:19.:09:24.

come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might

:09:25.:09:29.

suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for

:09:30.:09:35.

is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies

:09:36.:09:41.

a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes But it could also take Labour votes

:09:42.:09:46.

Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out

:09:47.:09:52.

on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird ,

:09:53.:09:58.

his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange.

:09:59.:10:04.

Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the

:10:05.:10:12.

Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from

:10:13.:10:17.

a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in

:10:18.:10:22.

the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable

:10:23.:10:29.

member for Bridgwater, be quiet if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is

:10:30.:10:34.

rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order.

:10:35.:10:52.

You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need

:10:53.:10:58.

to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's

:10:59.:11:03.

questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not

:11:04.:11:09.

1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he

:11:10.:11:17.

beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable

:11:18.:11:20.

person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the

:11:21.:11:24.

confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first

:11:25.:11:29.

place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this

:11:30.:11:33.

strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It

:11:34.:11:40.

will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent

:11:41.:11:46.

questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the

:11:47.:11:49.

deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call

:11:50.:11:54.

that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is

:11:55.:11:59.

true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room

:12:00.:12:07.

to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more

:12:08.:12:11.

power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered

:12:12.:12:17.

and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last

:12:18.:12:24.

week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the

:12:25.:12:31.

tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think

:12:32.:12:37.

many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great

:12:38.:12:42.

speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who

:12:43.:12:47.

have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to

:12:48.:12:51.

breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when

:12:52.:12:56.

they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government

:12:57.:13:01.

and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People

:13:02.:13:08.

like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him We

:13:09.:13:14.

carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and

:13:15.:13:18.

we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I

:13:19.:13:22.

was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly

:13:23.:13:29.

mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his

:13:30.:13:34.

deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who

:13:35.:13:42.

does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on

:13:43.:13:50.

BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the

:13:51.:13:53.

Sunday Politics.

:13:54.:14:01.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS