16/02/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Good morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be


extremely difficult, if not impossible, for an independent


Scotland to join the European Union, so says the President of the


European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant


development in the independence debate. It's our top story. He has


the power to bring travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow


joined us for the Sunday interview. Another by-election


In the East Midlands, we're with the leaders of our county councils.


They'll be telling us how they plan to cut hundreds of millions of


pounds and shed thousands more jobs. look at his decisions and priorities


with the help of his chief of staff. With me, the best and brightest


political panel in the business The twits will be as incessant and


probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development


in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the


President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel


Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that


an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union


as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28


member states and that would be in his words, extremely difficult, if


not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out


of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very


important, the application to the union would have to be approved by


all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the


secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your


democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely


difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have


a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that


Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is


a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be


externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't


want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive


into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex


Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to


the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with


England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last


week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically


get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that


they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get


the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more


significant than the application? The reference to Spain is


interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active


area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other


countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no


reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by


letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it


does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have


to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite


strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know


that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried


that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care


arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people.


We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the


currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the


polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would


prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that


these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls


tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for


error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of


reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in


the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a


member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both


of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already


told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is


playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister,


John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the


constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was


also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A


second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last


minute. The leader of the biggest


underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members


into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the


national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership


has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when


union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has


seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to


close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the


beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100


million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has


threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes.


Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview.


Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the


moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of


all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it


quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices


would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone


wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep


them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not


the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking


offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a


booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less


than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness.


Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV


that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time


people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed.


People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit


behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent,


however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they


were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out


of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket


offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind


and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the


underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They


are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers?


Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got


some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a


whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in


decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million


people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per


day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We


are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more


people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming


home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people


drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of


the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I


want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I


think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because


you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what


that has got to do with it. Let s get every editor of the daily


newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to


know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that...


You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and


follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were


taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they


go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on


holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They


sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be


?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never


mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what


you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning I


see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next


four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot


of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do


anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be


doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not


strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good


terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is all


of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they


have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to


do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for


your members and why union membership has been rising, people


want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost


for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone


believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are


going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on


the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at


some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The


starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary


for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22, 00 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a


teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had


to live through 24 strikes in 1 years to push up your members


wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by


conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the


teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the


end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up


the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are


fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all


support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars


around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members


pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if


we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who


travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care Of


course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling


public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It


two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us


against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's


a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having


their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is


going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said


at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in


two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth


?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting


trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy


what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it?


Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx


says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and


the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of


it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out


for new technology. But for who To put people on the dole, so they


can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so


everybody benefits, lower fares better service and better terms and


conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the


underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute


technology for Labour. And that s what it's going to do, it is closing


the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless


trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this


because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming


in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it


is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it


breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be


stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who


cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality


is simple, it is a nonsense. It s not going to happen because it is a


Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless


but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small


section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me


about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over


their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created


all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many


people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the


stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and


greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better


service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the


ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single


ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes


of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long


transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket.


The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is


that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people


having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use


the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the


offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I


struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages.


They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is


press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being


and what makes the London Underground so precious is that


people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out


on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the


concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London


Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices


and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially


sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the


closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed


to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal


with it. It is not the only way They should supplement the staff and


the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want


more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of


your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30%


voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of


your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a


higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be


lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to


have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we


used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were


higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where


ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be


persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the


workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT


re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got


expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the


Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we


don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you


going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You


haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you


stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and


right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are


anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the


immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as


badly run as you think, why don t you run for mayor? That is down the


road, it has not come up yet. I m not ruling anything out. I'm not


ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to


retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to


renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have


your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if


you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later


in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel


Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish


Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now


heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I


think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He


compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member,


Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to


reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are


compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been


part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work


about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership


of the European Union and that position has now been explained and


debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are


talking about the president of the European commission and we have


spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning,


it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that


Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they


will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it


if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state


of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish


membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if


there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an


independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue.


That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no


stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union


because it is important that Scotland is already part of the


European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union


and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation


in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that


David Cameron wants to have in 017. It has not been a great week for


you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has


been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel


Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it


has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the


Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within


Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is


Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect


comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence


and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves


your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We


have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be


to establish the currency union You would have to adopt the euro. That's


not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for


two years before you can apply for membership and an independent


Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or


the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our


arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests


of Scotland and the UK. Thank you for joining us this morning.


This week's least surprising news was that Labour won the safe seat of


Wythenshawe and Sale East in a by-election, following the death of


the MP Paul Goggins. With the result so predictable, all eyes were on


whether this would be the sixth time this parliament that UKIP would come


second. And whether they'd chip away at Labour's vote, not just the


Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed up all night to find out what it all


meant. Forget the hype. Forget the theorising. And yes - everyone has a


theory. UKIP are learning from us. What have they picked up from you?


To be silly. Thanks to this week's by-election we've got some hard


evidence in paper form that helps answer the question: How are UKIP


doing? Turns out the answer is well, but not well enough to beat Labour.


I'm therefore claim -- declare that Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have


come second and increased their share of the vote quite


significantly. But their performance isn't as good as their performances


in some of the other by-elections this parliament. Just don't suggest


to them that their bandwagon has ground to a halt. A week ago you'd


told me you were going to win, what happened? No, I didn't, I said I


wanted to win. My mistake. How are you feeling? It is a Labour


stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were


running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in


Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets


that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about


the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help


them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead.


Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they


could be on the right track. He s analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP


voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about


the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy


faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many


UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do


pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters


are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban


areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And


they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if


he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just


down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP


strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they


want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the


Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their


MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will


be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the


Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may


have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over


at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had


major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a


kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious


as that. The answer is, Carreon chaps, you're all doing a very good


job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which


will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if


it is just parked. -- bandwagon With me now is the Conservative MEP


Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He


will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You


came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky


Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very


unusual for any insurgent party like the liberals used to be, to


actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back


to Walkington etc, it tended to be winning seats against an unpopular


government. We did extraordinarily well in Wythenshawe. Labour


compressed the campaign down to the shortest possible time and maxed out


the postal vote. Whatever we think about Labour, they do have an


efficient machine, lots of union activists signed a lot of people


with a lot of know-how. It pushed you into third place and showed the


increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North? Tory minded voters in


the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you? I think


by-elections are by-elections. The same day, we took a seat from Labour


in Birmingham. Well, that was a by-election as well, so we should


discount that as well. You should learn from them, and we need to look


forward to the elections in 201 . That is in May this year, when we


have a chance to really grab this change in Europe, grab this change


that we were talking about just now. You don't worry, particularly in the


north, if people want to vote against Labour your supporters are


drifting to UKIP? I think people vote UKIP in a European election and


they have done that for many years. They vote that because they want


change. The problem is, Patrick s party have had MEPs since 1999 and


they cannot deliver that change They can't because they don't have


seats in Westminster. It was on that video, the only way we are going to


get the change we want in Europe is to have that referendum and have the


renegotiation, and that means vote Tory. What do you say to that? Let's


get real, the Conservative Party has not won a Parliamentary majority in


22 years. But the only way you will get a referendum, if that is what


motivates you, and with UKIP it is, the only way it will be a referendum


on Europe in this country as if there is a majority Conservative


government at the next election And you could well stop that from


happening? I don't accept that. I believe, just as we forced David


Cameron and into a referendum pledge he explicitly ruled out making


before through our success, and I was there in PMQs, when his MPs


asked him and he said it would not be in the national interest because


he didn't want to leave, our electoral success forced that


pledge. I believe by winning the European action this May we can


force Ed Miliband, again, against his will, to match that pledge.


Then, whatever formulation varies in the next Parliament, we will get a


referendum. Labour MPs have just had the chance to say we want a


referendum. They refused to do it. The only way you are going to get a


renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and an in


or out referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please


UKIP, stop pretending that you can deliver, because you don't deliver


and you don't... We have delivered, we forced David Cameron to give a


pledge for a referendum he didn't want to make. We will know if you


are right about Ed Miliband or not, you will have to tell us going into


the campaign. If you are wrong, what do you do then? There are still


loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. A referendum is one thing.


David Cameron, and I asked him directly, thermally wants to stay


in. He wants to be the Edward Heath of the 21st century. The Tories are


going to say, vote UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What would you say to


that? I would say we have probably maxed out the Tory vote we are going


to get because David Cameron has been incredibly helpful in sending


them in our direction. Our potential for growth now, would we are


concentrating on, his those disenchanted former Labour voters


and more and more of them are coming towards us on things like


immigration and law and order. We want to renegotiate our relationship


with Europe. We need to have people who are going to turn up to


negotiate with people like Barroso. That meant a Prime Minister that is


not Ed Miliband but David Cameron. UKIP MEPs do not turn up to


defenders. If President Hollande is as good as his word and says there


will be no substantial renegotiation, certainly no treaty


change this side of 2017 when he is up for the election, what do you do


then? He is a French Socialist Prime Minister, I don't expect him to


agree. But you can't bring anything of substance back with these


negotiations. Then people will vote to leave. The Prime Minister has


been very clear that British public opinion is on a knife edge and


unless we get what we want from a renegotiation, we will leave. You


would vote to leave? Let's see what we get with the deal on the table in


2017. If the status quo was what we have today, I would vote to leave.


But I want to renegotiate. We will have to move on. For those viewers


lucky enough to live in the East of have to move on. For those viewers


England, they will be seeing more of Patrick in a moment. You are


watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be


talking about, what else, the weather, with


In the East Midlands, we're out on the road and taking a closer look at


the crisis facing our county councils. And with me, the leaders


of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Leicestershire. The people taking


the decisions that affect us all. Without it, I think I would be on


the street. With hundreds of millions of pounds to cut and


thousands of jobs to shed, where will the axe fall next? A recent


report showed that this brings in for the local economy something in


the region of ?4.4 million. That would 0


the region of ?4.4 million. That would be 0


the region of ?4.4 million. That would be lost.


Hello, I'm Marie Ashby. This is the debating chamber at


Nottinghamshire's County Hall, where next week they'll be thrashing out


the final version of their budget. And between them, all three leaders


face some tough decisions. Nick Rushton, 0


face some tough decisions. Nick Rushton, the leader of


Leicestershire County Council, held on for the Conservatives at the


local elections last May, but that hasn't saved him from facing big


cuts to his budget. Anne Western, Labour leader of Derbyshire County


Council, came to power in those same elections. 0 0


Council, came to power in those same elections. And Alan Rhodes, Labour


leader of Nottinghamshire County Council, who also swept into power


last year and now faces a huge hole in his budget. We'll hear from them


in a moment, but first, our political 0


in a moment, but first, our political editor 0


in a moment, but first, our political editor John Hess has been


taking a look at the issues facing our councils in the East Midlands.


It is from this spot near Loughborough that you get a


fantastic view of the whole of the East Midlands, and when it comes the


County Council budget pressures, if you want the big picture, it is not


a bad place. Take Derbyshire. It is facing budget cuts of ?157 million.


That is the equivalent of 1600 job losses. In Nottinghamshire, the cuts


total is ?154 million, and 750 jobs. Since the age of posterity, it


has lost a quarter of its workforce. In Leicestershire, the


cuts will be around ?110 million, that is the equivalent of 700 posts.


It has already had to lose seven `` 750 jobs. But do we have to take a


new look at how our public services are provided? I am walking in the


park with David Parsons. There is not much he doesn't know about local


command. We are here because the park is not run by the council, but


as a charitable trust. Could it be a model 0


as a charitable trust. Could it be a model for cash`strapped councils to


follow? Local people are on the board. I think people ought to look


at places like this, to see how services can be run. The last thing


I want to hear is about local Romanby organisation, let's have


services which are responsive to people. I'd Mac welcome to the new


one`stop shop for public services in Hinckley. Here, the council shares


premises with other service providers. Is this the way ahead? We


share services with neighbouring district councils, we work across


the county border with our colleagues in Warwickshire on skills


and economic regeneration delivery. We have moved into new council


offices, which we share with the County Council and the job centre,


which saves the public sector well over 200,000 fans a year. Back to


Beacon Hill, and the sky 0 over 200,000 fans a year. Back to


Beacon Hill, and the sky is overcast, but what is the


Government's blue sky thinking on future funding of local services?


Local authorities are working together in partnership across the


public sector, potentially ?20 billion of services. Local


government 0 billion of services. Local


government as a whole will be spending 107 this year. `` ?117


billion. And how about this for efficiency saving? Merge the


district cancels into one. Perhaps an alternative is to look at unitary


districts. I think that will be far better and more in touch with the


people. What will that do to the average person on the street? I do


believe you need to cut the number of councillors. All the agencies


need to cooperate. But getting that cooperation we require a brisk walk


in the park, just to clear the head and think afresh.


Let's put these idea to the council leaders. And in the list says you


have reserves to tap into. I suppose you could even sell this building.


We could, of course. At in this economic honour, I am not sure


whether people would pay it. Brandon Lewis made a point about reserves.


We can only spend 0 Lewis made a point about reserves.


We can only spend reserves once. We have spent reserves and continue to


do so. We reduced our reserve skins `` considerably, by half by this


time next year. We use them for `` risible by giving... Time for


radical change is what the report seemed to be saying. Site it seemed


to suggest we could go on doing things exactly as we have done in


the past, that has gone. I am sure all of us are licking at different


ways we can innovate, and covered duplication. We are working closely


with the NHS in Derbyshire to see how we can 0


with the NHS in Derbyshire to see how we can integrate health and


social care. We know there is duplication, people get visited by


different people from different organisations, going through


different assessments. It is not very efficient. But what we know is,


if we 0 very efficient. But what we know is,


if we do 0 0 very efficient. But what we know is,


if we do that, 0 very efficient. But what we know is,


if we do that, the savings do not always manifest themselves in the


right place. In Derbyshire, if we were to invest ?1 million more in


preventing Babel from tripping and falling and breaking their hips ``


preventing people, it would save ?12 million in a any, but the money does


not move back into our pockets. You published a report saying that we


could save ?30 million a year if we abolished smaller councils. Is that


realistic? That came about because last summer, we consulted the


general public about our savings, and one thing they said to us is


that there are too many councillors and too many cancels. `` councils. I


said that we had not considered it but I was willing to commission is


an independent work to see what it would save, and I promised... It is


a huge amount. I published my strict friends I will publish it at the


same time I got it. What do we think about that as an idea? These savings


are always worth considering, but unless you get a few IM `` unless


you get a complete iron from the distance, is not feasible. `` a


complete lie in. You might have a completely new regime. We are


working very closely with other organisations, other councils. Do


you work together? You are in neighbouring authorities. We do some


work together. In answer to your previous question about whether it


is worth taking out a complete layer of local Governor, in Derbyshire and


in Nottinghamshire, we have taken a more evolutionary approach, we are


creating what is known as joint committees, where all the councils


in our area come together. In Derbyshire, it is the City Council,


the county and the eight districts coming together in one place so we


can share costs that way. I'd Mac you 0


can share costs that way. I'd Mac you worked as an authority with


Nottingham City Council. People might be surprised about that. We go


where we can do a deal. We nearly had a deal with Nottingham Shah, but


it fell through. I work 0 had a deal with Nottingham Shah, but


it fell through. I work very closely with my city Mayor in Leicester. I


will work with anybody who can save me money on backroom services so I


can spend them on the front line. As leaders, you are putting up council


tax am Nick has frozen his. Why should you not just take the guv ``


take the money from the Government rose`mac we handed `` we have to


make 150 former million pounds of savings forced `` ?154 million. The


increase will enable us to improve and deliver a cost`effective


service. We have had for years of council tax freezes, that has cost


this council a huge amount of money. The council tax increase we


are proposing will bring ?15 million over the next three years. That is


important income. Why not freeze the council tax in Derbyshire? It was


not a decision we took lightly. We know how tight budgets are. But the


money you get from the Government as a grad, there is no guarantee it


will continue. `` as a grant. Is that right? I was assured that the


grant is 0 that right? I was assured that the


grant is in 0 that right? I was assured that the


grant is in the base, I had gone up by 1% by increasing council tax by


1%, it enables me to get ?2.5 million from the Government. I think


Leicestershire people are struggling, so I did not want to


increase the burden on what they paid. It is very difficult to plan.


?500 million worth of public money. Do you think your collectors will


think it is too much of a risk? We did a big consultation over the


summer and the autumn, and what came out of that very loudly from people


in Derbyshire was a value the services. We will find out about


that in a moment. That came out in our consultation as well. And you


have been listening to what they had disable stop none of us want to do


this. But we have to live within our means. 0


this. But we have to live within our means. That is clearly what the


politicians think, but what about you? Jane Dodge has been speaking to


the people most affected by the decisions the leaders are making.


It might not sound like it, but this visitor is a friend, not both. John


Davidson credit lease out with turning his life around. A soldier


since his teens, in 2006 he sustained a serious head injury


while serving in Iraq. His marriage broke up and he found himself that


in Derbyshire with nowhere to live. The charity P3 stepped in and found


him a home. Without it, I think I would be on the street. P3 is a


grouping of people who can put a man back together again. That he or she


could then look for a good life again. John is one of 800 people


that P3 is supporting in Derbyshire. But he warns that work could come to


an end if they can to cancel goes ahead with proposed cuts in funding.


We will have people sleeping rough prolonged periods of time, living in


chaos, massive health needs and massive impact on the police,


massive impact on crime. It is a false economy. By fact it is not


only charities that are getting a pounding from cuts. Snibston


discovery Museum looks set to lose nearly a quarter of ?1 million.


Leicestershire County Council wants a smaller attraction, focusing on


the site's mining heritage. Opponents say it makes no financial


sense. The numbers of people attracted here from outside the


county, as well as from within, is significant. Very high numbers of


visitors. A recent report showed that this brings in for the local


economy something in the region of ?4.4 million. That would be lost.


Sun`mac I used to sleep here... Two weeks ago, that is where Daniel was


sleeping, apart in 0 weeks ago, that is where Daniel was


sleeping, apart in Mansfield. It was summer to get your head down. But


thanks to the charity Framework, he has a bed in a hostel for the


homeless after a life in and out of prison and he says it is the break


he needs 0 prison and he says it is the break


he needs to start again. The future is looking good. I am on the way to


doing things with my life now. I am going to college. I have plans.


There are 15 beds here, all of them currently in use, and there is a


long waiting list. Nottinghamshire County Council is proposing to cut


funding here by 80%, Framework says that goes ahead, this hostel and


4`mac others will have two close. `` and for others. Most people who use


this service do so because of psychological or psychiatric


problems, drug or alcohol problems, or 0


problems, drug or alcohol problems, or because they are homeless. Local


authorities do have an obligation to have `` to help homeless people.


Lisa has brought John to an advice centre in Ilkeston. Life is looking


at him, but if the cuts go ahead, this type of support will be a thing


of the past. Some of the people on the front line


of these cuts. Let's take a look, first off at


John's case, and Iraq veteran who said his life was put on track by


this charity. This is a charity whose funding you're going to cut in


Derbyshire. We are working very hard not to do so. If you take out of our


budget the statutory services, that we have a legal duty to provide,


what we have left is not very much at all. That is where this service


is funded from. But when you talk about looking further ahead, are you


not just building up bigger problems rose`mac absolutely. We all know


that. But when you do not have the money in the, what do you do? We set


our budget last week, and the figures it was based on, some of


them were estimates. When the actuals came in, during the council


meeting itself, we found we were ?450,000 that are off. So we put


that straight back in. `` that are off. Back into services like P3.


That could be the lifeline for them. So it is not as bleak as it sounds?


It is very bleak, but where we get a little glimmer of hope, we are using


that to protect 0 little glimmer of hope, we are using


that to protect the services that we want to preserve. A similar story


from Framework, that helps homeless people, facing a massive cut, 80%.


The first thing I said when I realised we would have to make these


kind of decisions is that we were sorry, that they were in this


situation. It is deeply regrettable that we are having to make cuts of


this nature. The supporting people budget, the budget that supports


organisations like Framework, is being cut by 0


organisations like Framework, is being cut by the Government. That is


reflected in the decisions we are having to make. Unfortunately, these


are the people... Yet, you realise that further down the line, this


will cost more, for the NHS, policing. I could not agree more.


False economy? Making these cuts now or a false economy for the future? I


do not think so, necessarily. I think people realise we have less


money. We are sorry we have less money and we are good to have to do


things in a lot different way. We will have to prioritise what we


want, what we want to achieve... Have you not always have to


prioritise? We are physically than to have to stop doing some of the


things 0 to have to stop doing some of the


things we 0 0 to have to stop doing some of the


things we presently do. There is no more money around. I cannot increase


my council tax, the Government will not give me any more money. And my


reserves are spoken for. The reserve... The recession may be


over, but the structural... What about those people who are


campaigning to save Snibston? I consulted my electorate. On where


they wanted to see savings, and where they wanted the money for a


taste. They wanted me to prioritise my spending on vulnerable persons,


children, health, highways, and unfortunately for Snibston, it was


at the bottom of the pile of things that people chose to spend money on.


We have taken a percentage away. And I am afraid I cannot make a special


exception for Snibston when I had the same sort of pressures that


Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire do. Some people would say that you have


ticked high`profile services to cut, like homeless `` like


homelessness, deliberately, proving a point. That 0


homelessness, deliberately, proving a point. That is not the case, I


would never use of vulnerable people as political pawns, that would be


against `` offensive to me, personally. You have more than 1000


statutory obligations as councils, things that you have to do. How many


of those do you think you will still be able to provide in the future? If


it is a statutory obligation, we will provide it, as simple as that.


We may provide it differently, but we 0


We may provide it differently, but we will still provide 0


We may provide it differently, but we will still provide it. Will you


become more like commissioning bodies in the future? I do not


necessarily think we need to go down that avenue. I 0


necessarily think we need to go down that avenue. I think what we are


going to have to do is look at the provisions of services in a very


different way, and ask a lot of people to help themselves, and also


to demand management, we need to stop people automatically coming to


the council for things and help them to help themselves. As we said


before, one of the key things we really have to do is get this bond


with the NHS going right. There is not enough money left in the budgets


of councils to do all the statutory services and the other stuff that


people want us to do. I thought there was a glimmer of hope in the


last few days, because Eric Pickles was saying, we are a wealthy


country. And I thought that was refreshing to hear, because we are a


wealthy country. It just does not feel like it for most people. We


need to prioritise what is important, and I do not 0


need to prioritise what is important, and I do not think the


Government is doing that. The attack on local government budgets has been


ferocious. Budgets have been cut far more than at any other part of


Government. I'm sorry to say, that is about the Government shifting the


blame to 0 is about the Government shifting the


blame to the local level. You have us here in the spotlight today, we


do not want to do this, we are responsible for the budgets, but we


are telling the Government land and clear that they have cut too far. ``


loud and clear. I am shaking my head in despair because I absolutely


agree with that, I am despairing about the fact that the Government


have clearly cut too far. We as local authorities that want to


provide services are finding ourselves in this situation, where


in a wealthy country, we are unable to do that. Do you agree with Eric


Pickles? We are certainly a wealthy country and we are struggling with


the money we have, to provide the services which he `` which we have


historically provided. But I cannot see any government going back to how


things work, we do have a structural deficit and we have to operate


within their means that we have got. Time now for a round`up of the


political stories this week with our political editor John Hess in sixty


seconds. Formidably leader of Leicestershire


County Council is to fight the Bosworth seat for UKIP at the next


general election. He will take on the Conservative candidate, who has


held the seat since 1987. Nottingham says it will soon have the largest


fleet of electric buses in Europe stop the City Council is buying 11


more low emission buses after getting an extra ?1.5 million from


the Green bus fund. High`speed broadband is coming to more homes in


Harborough. Extra investment from the District Council means to 90% of


homes will be able to access fibre`optic internet. It helps the


high number of home`workers and agricultural businesses.


And unitary councils again, but not for a county, for a time.


Mansfield's executive Mayor wants to replace all of Nottinghamshire's


existing eight councils, plus the city, and create three powerful


offer at ease, including one for Mansfield and central


Nottinghamshire. So, the idea of unitary verities


gaining some ground. How will our councils look in five years' time? I


will be smaller and leaner, employing fewer people. I will be


working closer with the NHS and hopefully, working more closely with


other councils. Ayes briefly, what is yet to come as regards cuts? I


always say to my city Mayor, 95% of what we do is above and beyond


politics. Let's work together with the money we have, with the benefit


of the people as a whole. What about cuts? Samak the year that is about


to start is 0 cuts? Samak the year that is about


to start is bad, but the year after that is even worse. A lot of smaller


councils will be struggling by that point. But you have to hope, it is


also general election year and I hope we will see a gingerbread


ration. That's the Sunday Politics in the


East Midlands. `` I hope we will see a change of direction. Thanks to


direction? No, in real terms now the rent is falling in London. Andrew,


back to you. Welcome back. Let's start by talking


about the weather. What could be more British? It has been


practically the only topic of conversation for the past few


weeks. This morning, Ed Miliband has made the direct link, declaims,


between this exceptionally wet and windy weather and climate change.


That's an interesting development, taking place. Ed Miliband is the


author of the 2008 Climate Change Act, so he has to stick to that line


or his life 's work goes up in smoke. When he passed it, there was


Westminster consensus. Now the Tories are beginning to appeal off.


UKIP has definitely peeled off. Labour and Lib Dems are sticking to


their guns, there is now a debate? It has moved from consensus to very


fragile consensus. It's an interesting tactic for Ed Miliband


to take. He could either approach the floods talking about government


failures and handling, instead he has gone for the intellectual


argument, try and turn this into a debate about ideology and climate


change. I think he will find that quite difficult. Partly, I don't


think the public I get listening to an argument like that. Partly


because only one in three of the public totally agree with him. The


polls for The Times think that about one in three think that man-made I'm


a change is responsible for these floods, the rest do not. I'm not


sure that the interventions will be particularly well picked up. It puts


David Cameron in a difficult position. He was hugging those


huskies, it was going to be the greenest Government ever, and now he


has an Environment secretary that doesn't really believe in climate


change. Well, we don't know where he stands. That is not where he was in


2010. It has always been sold to us that he is statesman-like and


pragmatic, but that drifts into he doesn't really believe anything


This is a worldwide phenomenon now. You've got the Canadian government,


they are pretty sceptical these days. The new Australian government


is pretty sceptical. The Obama administration has been attacked by


the green movement across the United States, he is probably about to


approve the keystone pipeline that will take over the Texas refineries.


What was a huge consensus across the globe is a guinea to break down


Probably started to break down about the time of the financial crisis,


the age of austerity, when suddenly people had more to worry about than


green issues. Even at home it is a slightly risky tactic for Ed


Miliband. The idea there is a scientific consensus on this, there


isn't. You look at Professor Collins this morning, climate systems


expert, saying, actually, the jet stream is not operating further


south because of climate change Or if it is, it is beyond our


knowledge. He flies in the face of what Ed Miliband as saying. He's


saying the wet weather is caused by global warming, the head of science


at Exeter University says the IPCC originally looked at whether climate


change could affect what happens to the jet stream and, because it had


no evidence it had any effect, it decided not to include it at all in


the IPCC report. The problem we have got is that any individual


phenomenon is difficult to attribute to climate change. But the Labour


Leader just have? And The Met Office have done the same thing. It's a


fragile in, but overall we can say we are getting more extreme weather


than ever. The most extreme weather, hurricanes and tropical storm is,


they have been in decline. Equally, we have had ten of the hottest


summers in the last ten years since 1998. Overall, there is a case that


can be made that we are getting more. Each individual thing is


difficult to say. Until recently, almost everyone agreed with that


case. Now the parties are reflecting differences. I wanted to move on,


what did you make of two interesting things that happened with the


interview with UKIP and the Tories, one Cory saying I am voting to come


out, and the UKIP chap saying we are maxed out on Tory defectors, we


can't get any more? I think that was a dangerous admission from Patrick


O'Flynn from UKIP, essentially saying that their vote has peaked.


Looking at the by-elections, I'm not sure that was a particularly wise


reflection on that. They got 18 , 23% last year. The case he is making


is that there are more votes to be gained by attracting former Labour


voters than former Tories. I'm not sure that red UKIP, the bit of UKIP


that tries to make benefit protection and some other kind of


social issues at the heart really sits comfortably with their


insurgent, anti-state message. I don't think it will do particularly


well. This is why they are pushing the message, it is their response to


the idea and suggestion of a Tory rallying cry that they vote for


Nigel Farage, and it is really a vote for Ed Miliband. Patrick is a


very good journalist, a very good commentator. He answered almost as a


commentator rather than head of communications for a political


party. The Government are still trying to rid itself of troublesome


priests, an attack on welfare reforms from the Catholic Archbishop


of Westminster. Let's have a look and see what he said. The basic


safety net that was there to guarantee that people would not be


left in hunger or in destitution has actually been torn apart. It no


longer exists. And it is a real real, dramatic crisis. The second is


that, in this context, the administration of social assistance,


I am told, has become more and more punitive. If applicants do not get


it right, they have to wait and they have to wait for ten days, two


weeks, with nothing. Has the basic safety net disappeared? I don't see


how it is possible to argue that. It is certainly the case that there


have been reductions in various benefits, some benefits have been


scrapped and there is a welfare reform programme. But this country


is still spending ?94 billion a year on working age benefits. Excluding


pensions? The idea that this equates to some sort of wiping out of the


safety net is... He has gone on a full frontal assault on the Tory


reforms, not the kind of attack that Labour would be prepared to make?


No, they know that it doesn't play very well in the country. He's not


up for election. Whether or not you agree about the safety net, I think


the welfare reforms have been poorly managed and I don't think that is a


full dispute. Universal credit, it is in some very long grass. It had


some stupid ideas, like the idea that it would be paid monthly,


instead of weekly, meaning that people are more likely to run out of


money by the end of the month. It's interesting, in the past, when


members of the cloth have attacked the government for welfare reforms,


the Government have responded by trying to paint them as lefties


ideological driven. I think that is hard in this case, an assault made


deliberately in the Telegraph from somebody who feels they come from a


centre-right position. I think there will be a bit of awkwardness about


this intervention. It is not the kind of thing they wanted to see. Is


it politically damaging for the Government? It is if it makes them


look mean-spirited. But that is the problem with welfare reforms. You


can say all sorts of things about Iain Duncan Smith's competence. But


the whole thing springs from a moral mission, as he sees it, to liberate


the poor and extend opportunity One of the worst moments for the Tories


was blaming the low level of voting in Wythenshawe and sale in the fact


that the constituency had, in the words of one senior Tory, the


largest council estate in Europe inside its constituency boundary.


The point being what? Because you live in a council estate you don't


vote? That they don't see people living in council estate as one of


them, not an impulse that Margaret Thatcher would have had. I think


it's dangerous if they are painting is people as opponents rather than


trying to win them over. When they do vote, they determine elections!


The idea that there is no such thing as a working-class Tory is toxic. I


want to show you a picture. There we go. It is behind me, on the 5th of


February, it is all men. And then, on the next, look at that, the 2th,


there are a few women. Not exactly many, but some. It is an


improvement. But it is so transparent, isn't it? We phoned up


one of the women that sat behind David Cameron to ask, why the sudden


change? They said, I don't know why you are bothering to ask, it is


completely natural, we didn't do anything to stage manage it. Did his


nose gets longer? It is something that is very transparent and


depressing about the way politicians choose to react to these moments.


Every week they put two women behind David Cameron, so that a tight shot


shows them. It is called the doughnut. They don't have many women


to shuffle around, there are only four among 14 in the Shadow Cabinet.


Also, the fact that women, younger women in particular, are much less


likely to vote Tory than five or ten years ago. David Cameron, it drives


and furious, he is obviously aware this is one of the biggest potential


demographic problem is that they have. It also reminds us of how the


public can actually see the wiring behind a lot of the stuff. Do they


really think your blog so stupid that they will not notice that the


following week the front bench is packed with women? I think it just


increases contempt for the entire rocket. It is an issue where Labour


seem to have pulled ahead of the other parties. We are being told


that 50% of candidates in their 100 target seats will be female. It


looks like the composition of Labour continues to go towards a kind of


rough 50-50 split, eventually. Although that is true, I think the


faces we see on the telly, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Chris Leslie,


they are almost always men. There is a Rachel Reeves, a prominent female


face that goes up a lot. But really, the number of e-mails they put up is


proportionally a lot smaller. Is the Miliband team still a men's club?


Behind the scenes, it is very blokey. It's been described as a


kind of seminar room at a university. I think that is true.


The Observer did the cutout and keep of the people behind Mr Miliband. As


opposed to the Shadow Cabinet, with lots of women in it, it was very


male. The one reason Labour have all of these women to put up in


constituencies is all women short lists is. If Tories want to change


things, I know they can be prone to minute -- and in relation, but they


work. In ten years time, I think it will give Labour an immense


advantage. By then, I think they will have a woman leader. Who will


that be? Potentially somebody not even yet in the Commons. You can see


how quickly people can rise to the top, but the Labour Party is going


to be increasingly donated by women. Do you think there will be a Labour


Leader before Theresa May becomes leader of the Conservatives? I think


it is ultimately about Osborne trying to stop Boris. I think I


would be astonished if she managed it. The first female Labour Leader?


I would pick Rachel Reeves the way it is currently going, she knows her


stuff and does well on TV. That is all for this week. We have a week


off now. I'll be back in the week after next. Remember, if it is


Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless it's a Parliamentary recess.


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