08/06/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

We're live at the Showground with the town's new MP and

Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

And with me our panel of top political journalists,

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

This morning's political news is dominated

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

There will be discipline in the Government.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

together to confront this problem for the sake of the children?

have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

Labour' as core voters are the European Union. I am clear what

I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent

a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But

we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

majority in the light of the European elections after

consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,

they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.

I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And

Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent

people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of

delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people

have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the

first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them

in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it

strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the

electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to

Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European

Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did

come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the

election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy

with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got

significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.

Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the

system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did

not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because

you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you

have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain

about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have

complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a

proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,

we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national

legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for

national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused

some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were

very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the

authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.

That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by

demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any

legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal

advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly

does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the

morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,

there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There

needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,

one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous

and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing

going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in

Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.

It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go

back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to

the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an

authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have

the Electoral Commission. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

we'll be discussing extremism are the newly elected MP for Newark.

What does that feel like? It is a great honour and I was absolutely

delighted. It has been a hard`fought campaign. I have been campahgning

since November so I did not just turn up for the by`election. It has

been a long road so I am delighted, very happy, and I want to work hard

and repay the trust local pdople here have put into me. Norm`lly

young MPs into the House of Commons as one of a big class. The class of

2014 is won and that's me! So hopefully it is good for Newark as

well. Hopefully we will havd more profile than we would otherwise have

had. You are not the new MP for Newark. How does that feel? Of

course we campaigned and intended to win. Coming second is never as good

as coming first, but, at thd same time, we increased our shardd by a

factor of six and halved thd Conservative majority and what we

showed, importantly, is that those who vote UKIP in Euro electhons a

very high proportion of thel are prepared to come forward to

Westminster elections and vote UKIP again. But you still didn't win We

didn't win but we are clearly the main first challenger to thd Tories

in Tory seats, and of coursd previous by`election experidnce

shows we are the main first challenger to Labour in Labour

seats, and that will take us through to success in 2015. They ard right,

aren't they, Vernon? Well, we will put forward what we believe and we

will take on the Tories and expose them for the failings of thd

Government as we see them and we will also expose Europe and hold

UKIP to account for the polhcies they promote. Just a few daxs ago,

for example, the UKIP leader saying they are in favour of gramm`r

schools. I think when peopld start to pick apart UKIP they will be ..

But a hugely disappointing result for Labour? We brought forw`rd

hugely important local issuds. The local MP will have to see where he

stands with respect to things like Newark Hospital and the A

department. We will hold Robert Jenrette to account to see whether

he delivers on the promises they have made. So, all eyes on xou, as I

said. You going to deliver? well, yes, to me, the election was local

people having a choice as to who they wanted to be their constituency

MP and who they thought was the most credible person to represent their

area. Where do you stand on the East Coast line? I said in the c`mpaign

infrastructure is the key and the infrastructure of the town, so road,

rail and broadband. I said H am not ideological on the east coast line.

I want the best possible service for passengers and if we can get fares

down and increase the number of services on the line, as yot see,

for example, on the West Co`st Main Line, where investment in rolling

stock has been around 300 mhllion in recent years compared to 30 or 0 on

the East Coast Main Line, so if we could get that in the process of

returning it to private owndrship, I think that is the best thing to

people up here in Newark and the surrounding area, Roger. Is that

something you overlooked in your campaign? Concentrating on

immigration? In any by`election campaign, you have national issues

and local issues. It would be a huge mistake to ignore either. I would

have been committed to camp`igning to getting the A back. We talked

about flood defences and local schools, local transport and

infrastructure. So, yes, we focused on local as well as national issues.

Where did you go wrong here, Vernon? Because you had a local candidate

but he just wasn't getting the message through? I thought we fought

a campaign on the local isstes, as you said. What we actually put

forward was what we thought were policies which were important to the

people of Newark, and come the general election and next ydar, when

people are making decisions about who they want to run the cotntry,

rather than making protests and voting Tory to prevent UKIP from

winning, as we saw in a locked. . But a lot of Lib Dem voters did vote

UKIP, didn't they? Sorry, a lot of Lib Dem voters voted Tory. They

voted Tory in order to prevdnt UKIP winning and I think that is

significant. That is worrying, though. They could do that `gain!

When you start to make choices about who you want to run the country and

who you want to walk into 10 Downing Street, that will make people

realise and think about where they place their vote, and clearly, they

won't want to see Nigel Far`ge walking into Downing Street, or

indeed, getting members of Parliament into Parliament where

they are going to talk about the sorts of things we have heard them

talking about on integration. Well, you know that it would have been

extremely unpopular talking about immigration in your party. Where you

let down by Nigel Farage? D`vid Cameron came here ten times to

support his candidate. Nigel Farage only came twice. That tells me they

cared a bit more about the seat I was delighted... He was not on

holiday! May I answer the qtestion, if you don't mind! I was delighted

he came when he did and we had a day `` we had a fantastic pre`election

talk. He is a figure who colmands enormous media attention. You

described him as box office in the Telegraph. But is that not ` problem

for candidates like yourself? He is the leader of our party and our

delegation in Brussels and our group in Brussels and he has lots of

pulls on his time. It's been quite a show

the last few weeks here in Newark. But what has the town got ott

of a by`election? Our political editor, John Hess

looks back at how the country's top politicians

have been falling over our It feels as though the circts has

finally left town and it can all be swept away, but how easy will it be

to sweep away those election pledges? Newark has two railway

stations. Northgate, with its fast links to King's Cross, making London

128 miles away in just over an hour's journey, and then thdre is

the Cinderella service, the Castle line. Just under an hour to cover

just 40 miles! But is this railway Cinderella about to go to the ball?

The train service is not up to scratch. We should be improving our

services between Lincoln and Nottingham and Newark, making sure

they are more regular and that there is a direct service to Notthngham.

It is all about securing Newark s economic future and the whole of the

East Midlands. The future of the hospital was another local campaign

issue. Would Accident Emergency be reinstated? The Labour Leaddr, Ed

Miliband, toured the wards. People are deeply worried about thd

downgrading of the A here. Labour is pledging to have 48 hour access

with your GP and that is good for health services but it is also good

for the hospital as well, bdcause you get people coming to thd

hospital, and I heard this today, you cannot get proper access. Jeremy

Hunt also came here and within a week the head of NHS England

announced a significant polhcy change. Services will no longer be

shifted to because that is `s a matter of course. Instead, smaller

hospitals will have enhanced services. Is that another shgn of

the by`election affect? How are you going to improve the area's schools?

On the eve of the poll, a round table candidate debate at r`dio

Nottingham. This election commitment was made about local schools. The

school is going to be rebuilt, it is going to be fantastic. I reviewed

the plans with the headteacher and we are going to move forward from

there. I want to see Magnus have the same treatment and Toothill, because

they have another block unddr way and there is clearly more to be

done. Michael Gove also camd to talk up plans about rebuilding the

town's rundown secondary schools. And this was Nigel Farage on a

visit. I get it, I understand it. Over the months to come on Sunday

Politics, we will keep an exe on how and when those pledges are

fulfilled. In a moment, we'll be finding out

what our guests think about that. But first let's go to Tim P`rker,

who's down there, I am in amongst the British bulldog

festival looking at how to help rescue dogs. They are a passing

grade but they can slobber ` bit and my next guest knows all abott that,

we both do, because we have already had some of that around our legs

this afternoon! Let's talk `bout the effect UKIP has been having,

especially recently. Put thdse results into perspective. What does

it mean for them? For UKIP, this is actually quite is accessibld result.

Nigel Farage has recently come out and said, listen, we did not expect

to win. And I think that is probably true. That is not an area conducive

`` normally conducive to th`t demographic but I think it has done

what they wanted, meaning they were able to show they are seriots

contenders for ACT in Westmhnster. Right across the East Midlands, many

seats have been divided with Labour in that way. How is the UKIP

landscape going to change that? That is the interesting thing. For a long

time there was this percepthon that they were pulling from the Tory

Party. And what we have seen recently through the Europe`n

elections is that that is not only the case, so they have actu`lly been

pulling a lot of traditional Labour supporters, which I think w`s

unexpected from the party's perspective, so perhaps Labour was

not expecting that. One intdresting thing to see will be that in

different constituencies, all the parties will have to be prepared to

take this challenge from UKHP because they are not sure where this

support will come from. We have heard on this programme alrdady that

they are the challenger in so many seas. You think that's right? ``

seats. It will be interesting to see because they have had a challenge

transferring their European success into a general election, but one of

the things we see with this data, this survey data, is that they say

they will stay loyal in a gdneral election but if that is the case,

they will be strong challengers across a number of seats in

different parts of the country, including in the north`east and the

North West. So it is a bit soon to tell. There is much work to be done

in the next year but it could be true. Finally, this makes otr job

very difficult in terms of predicting what will happen next. It

will be very unpredictable hn the next year. UKIP will have to do a

lot of work, particularly on a domestic programme. They have been

very successful at deepening amongst groups already likely to support

them but if they want to take seats, they need to cut across these

groups who traditionally don't favour UKIP, and women in p`rticular

will be a challenge for UKIP, so if they can do this, we are gohng to

see a very ample addict for situation, which, for peopld like

me, means it is very exciting. `` a very unpredictable situation. I m

going to go along here and have a go at naming some of these dogs after

that! So, talking about the potential way UKIP can make gains.

There are plenty of marginal seats where all it takes is anothdr 1 ,000

votes and you are in troubld. I am thinking Sherwood, rock Stowe, and

the valley, all of those pl`ces It was a by`election and those are in

a sense, a test of the government. In Newark 50% of people chose to

stick with the Government. H think that is because things are hmproving

locally and nationally. We have had almost 8000 jobs created since 010

here. The East Midlands is the fastest`growing part of the British

economy. Of course there is a way to go but things are improving and the

feedback I had on the doorstep is that people don't want to ttrn back

the clock and risk the recovery so I do have confidence in my fellow

MPs, in the likes of Sherwood. Some of the analysis we have been looking

at points to the fact that xou might have, Roger, a problem with women

voters. They don't seem to like Nigel Farage. You call him box

office, they might disagree. Not all of them, clearly. But in sole of the

polls we have seen. You will see they are either preferred bx men or

women with any party. We just had 24 UKIP MEPs elected and six of those

women, and they are very good women indeed. You probably saw Di`ne James

on the coverage of the by`election on the Andrew Neil Show. Shd was

superb so I am delighted we are now putting forward very strong and

capable women as UKIP MEPs `nd I believe that will appeal to women

voters. Woodward talking about the potential for UKIP to get into these

marginal seats. `` we were talking. You must be feeling more vulnerable

now? Nobody takes this seat for granted and I certainly don't. But

for the Labour Party and those seas we have just mentioned, Sherwood,

Amber Valley, all of those seats across the Keys Midlands, the Labour

Party is working very hard. `` those seats we have mentioned. We will put

for the alternatives and hold the Government to account on thd cost of

living crisis and the fact that people aren't feeling the bdnefits

of the limited growth now t`king place. And, as I said, we whll also

expose UKIP for what they are in terms of their policy and what they

will do. And we will expose you Just tell me, what seats can you win

here in the East Midlands? We talked about marginals. Which ones are you

going for? We are developing a targeted strategy for once we

consider marginals and UKIP potential, but I am certainly not

going to make wild guesses on air. You were rather speaking to Robert

as if UKIP only takes Conservative votes. We don't. We take votes

across the board. Former Lib Dems, former Labour... You will t`ke them

from wherever! We also take votes from those who haven't voted for 20

years and they see something they now liked. Your leader described you

towards the later end of yotr years. As age got something to do with it?

I don't want to be a just! H was the only one with Parliamentary

experience and the one with by far the most business experiencd, which

is a good thing. Will new stand again? We will be looking after the

dust had settled and putting forward appropriate candidates for the

seats, so it would not be stitable for me to make that statement.

Besides, we have adopted a local constituency... But would you like

to stand again? I'm looking forward to moving back to Brussels tomorrow

and I'm looking forward to representing the people of Newark in

Brussels if not in Westminster. Robert, you have a real taste of

what being in the limelight is like with the spotlight on you. Ht all

got rather personal as well, saying your background was privileged. How

did that all feel? It is politics, isn't it? It shouldn't be btt it is.

We fought an unrelenting and positive campaign and unlikd the

other parties, we were focused on the local issues, so if you look at

the leaflets people are now chucking in their dustbins after the

by`election, while others wdre talking about their national issues,

we were talking about hospitals the railways... We talked about local

issues constantly! You had `lready given `` UKIP our `` had already

given up on Newark is Mac you going to stand up?! We felt that there

were great things for the country which were great things for Newark

as well. Listen to the political man speaking! You haven't actually said

whether you are going to st`nd or not. I've replied to that qtestion

already and I refer you to ly previous answer! I guess ond of the

biggest concerns is the turnout and only 52% turned out to vote, and in

a hotly contested seat wherd everything was thrown against. This

is what you are up against, isn t it? Everybody would agree that

clearly when it comes to trtst in politics, there is a job for all of

us to do and we can all agrde on that. This is about trying to, once

again, say to people we havd listened and we understand what you

are saying and then act upon it But as one of the things UKIP are

saying. As I say, not enough... When people listen to what UKIP stand

for, I think then they will come to a different conclusion. I'm sorry.

We will have to go into our 62nd round `` 60`second round up.

The Charnwood MP Stephen Durrell is stepping down from his role as

chairman of the Health Select Committee. He says he will have more

freedom to debate health policy and laughed at claims that he is

preparing for a post Newark by`election reshuffle. The

Government's help to buy scheme has been raised as a concern by the

North Leicestershire MP. Though he says many have been able to buy

under the scheme. John Mann has been an usually quiet, for good reason.

He is up a mountain! The experienced climber is scaling the 19,000 foot

mountain in Ecuador to raisd money for the British Legion. As tradition

now demands, Dennis Skinner interrupted the pomp and

circumstance of the opening of Parliament with a well timed quip.

count, I went to Newark bushness club and then went to open ` pub!

Monday we are opening a prilary school. So it will be a busx time.

Wednesday, looking forward to going to the House of Commons. I'l going

back to Brussels, looking forward to meeting the other newly elected UKIP

MEPs. And a lot of work to be done for Labour. I think that's where we

have to leave it. Thank you for my guests. That is it for the Sunday

Politics in London. Back to Andrew. about some of the strategies to

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an

Islamist organisation, having been involved

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

influence the students of this country with a medieval

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this

establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the

solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working

out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying

about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very

serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into

intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You

have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very

often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think

all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound

problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like

France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The

story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report

that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other

report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in

July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look

at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even

government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism

became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed

the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the

argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They

should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society It

was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a

hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to

resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just

has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?

You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping

him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a

massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal

market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.

There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot

of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from

Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and

drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could

think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I

remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when

the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European

constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the

ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively

rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You

can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the

people who have protested at the elections with the way the European

Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What

has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we

go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink

at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you

are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?

You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.

It's like a big old question mark in your heart.

I just try and do the best I can for them while they're with me

Join Lorraine Pascale as she looks at stories of fostering...

I wasn't happy at all, but now I am. ..including her own.

Nice to know finally where I came to the world.