15/06/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


With Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby. James Rubin, Mark Malloch-Brown and Bayan Rahman debate the Iraq crisis and Jackie Baillie and Blair Jenkins discuss Scottish independence.

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Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.


The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.


The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.


But the country now faces a de facto partition.


What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?


It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.


But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?


Both sides join us to go head to head.


I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of


that? In East Midlands, what you think


even Westminster, we'll be asking In East Midlands, what you think


about immigration? Who cares In London, why the minority vote one


recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger


than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known


as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern


and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked


like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has


now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army


and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that


a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri


al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation


of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi


army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or


surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a


humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to


consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts


of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias


are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way


partition a real possibility with The US is moving another


of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,


though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help


its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports


that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's


diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who


are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS


is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure


Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.


What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not


recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they


could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as


far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of


Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,


along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,


2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was


called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and


bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in


large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their


side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is


a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer


that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia


Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and


this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and


this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We


can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,


South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What


is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a


consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are


trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major


city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the


power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys


in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would


like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could


take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they


have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these


newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can


effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next


week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious


government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a


really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for


some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map


because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their


position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking


over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim


are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south


and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.


-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways


Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi


combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see


millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a


lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type


partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of


Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will


occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an


awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard


about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.


It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and


if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always


be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.


Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border


with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming


a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I


did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform


They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers


have been never some time and they are also said to protect the


political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think


more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise


the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.


Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.


Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.


He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing


That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.


This morning he entered the debate about what should be


My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11


happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,


Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a


major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the


dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem


doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates


about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,


but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional


problem, but a problem that will affect us.


And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,


Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman


for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,


she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.


Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a


shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed


question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.


Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an


intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during


moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the


other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics


towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a


drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular


and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of


invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the


diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come


onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what


the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,


because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the


signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no


appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he


does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very


large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this


particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the


strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use


drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that


the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire


him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform


Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines


that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big


operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as


having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,


perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in


Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have


had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were


struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that


number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are


calling on the international community to help us with that. So


we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe


not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent


on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I


think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be


supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the


federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is


first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily


intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,


provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more


targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the


disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be


abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.


But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.


We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have


seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we


ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,


this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and


from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through


to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and


Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made


earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic


divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for


this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise


although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq


instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century


boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable


because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc


and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the


last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are


we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from


here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and


thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it


is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto


Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the


idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination


going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may


end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded


with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key


thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two


groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done


is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.


We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni


extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the


great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go


into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If


in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability


that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to


have to do something about it. The danger is that power will


spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your


southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all


making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never


be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three


countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a


countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose


federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what


it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the


make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the


political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside


their differences or there will be problems. This provides that


opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I


opportunity, in a very nasty way. If this is the end of a rack as we know


it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges,


it. If anything resembling a autonomous federal-state. Any


support for the government must be premised on that. There is no


military solution for this which is in


military solution for this which is big issues. When Britain and France


carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global


powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just


going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank


you very much. The danger is that power will


spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the


referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,


it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't


just getting heated. In places it's also


down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author


announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds


this week, she received Independence supporters online,


so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor


and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together


campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,


and this week he criticised Conservative ministers


for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival


approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to


engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from


Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,


and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you


first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond


not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the


debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number


of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling


themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a


fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably


total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not


to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty


people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there


are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the


Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to


people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,


and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a


democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is


characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out


of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get


to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and


you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I


think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging


in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we


want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United


Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,


particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to


support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on


social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.


We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come


This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What


is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I


understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but


it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that


we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,


it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was


varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people


think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against


Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of


four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,


Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to


the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most


incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.


Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.


Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting


fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if


people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and


opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the


accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK


Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars


and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.


How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.


Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is


running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than


Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair


Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il


and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need


to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It


is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I


think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You


have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?


The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.


You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be


flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at


all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I


think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing


such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,


their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the


United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I


refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve


answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most


outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair


Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they


are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is


worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted


perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they


are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this


campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around


Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned


out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes


campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know


we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of


polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion


polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.


Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.


You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying


in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280


hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your


hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the


campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then


why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are


taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits


of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and


more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United


Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things


like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the


issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one


very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the


England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be


delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in


the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I


would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think


it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I


was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.


Now most of you probably missed last night's football match


between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and


England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.


But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever


and with speculation about the fitness of each political


party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.


Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.


This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football


stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for


these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon


and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian


barbecue. And at Westminster they're


turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.


We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start


collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?


collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid


collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got


Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next


to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and


vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very


popular since she fell out with him out how


to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation


about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a


reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any


swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has


also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is


standing down. Does he go with the favourite


the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,


Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate


Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European


Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s


poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.


Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.


You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them


all? This is almost the perfect team.


There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow


And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing


I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -


With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,


He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to


trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.


He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into


the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's


very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,


despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime


minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at


the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick


Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I


need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far


better. There you are. Some local parties are holding


meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week


they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.


Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do


that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy


collecting. These beauties are popping up


everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around


Westminster as I speak. I'm joined


by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers


throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch


the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the


break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,


senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They


are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this


jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.


What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and


people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking


too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that


drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on


manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he


believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.


It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the


economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.


Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails


of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more


popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an


extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while


never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing


government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant


piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --


political Charente. piece of political Charente and they


would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I


have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots


taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read


strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people


watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on


for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe


brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so


much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris


Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,


they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this


week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove


had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he


said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative


party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two


years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it


just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but


I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,


you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That


is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit


carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's


In the East Midlands, is immigration boosting our economy


MPs and councils hold a special meeting.


I would say it's good for Ldicester, and good for the UK.


It's politically incorrect but I do feel we've been sw`mped,


Who cares for the children who care for their families?


My friends don't have to care for their siblings or their mum


They just go out and play on the park and do what thex want


Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests today, Heather


Wheeler, the Conservative MP for South Derbyshire and Liz Kendall,


Labour's MP for Leicester Wdst. So what price the recession?


Well, the Labour leader Ed Liliband thinks he knows how much it's cost


us here in the East Midlands. He was addressing the


Annual Conference of the GMB trade union at the Nottingham Arena.


And, in a speech dominated by the cost of living, he put a figure on


how much Labour claims we'vd lost in lower earnings and higher prices.


People are on average according to the figures published yesterday two


and a half thousand pounds ` year worse off than they were in 201 .


That means wages are behind prices and we're still seeing


We've got a tackle that because while the government says


the economy is fixed, the truth is people are getting worse off


and that's why we need to r`ise the minimum wage, deal with insdcurity,


zero hours contracts, build houses again


Do you accept those figures? Absolutely not. If you look at


things we've introduced by having zero council tax increases when it


under Conservative council, and then as soon as Labour get enabldd the


council tax up. Things like the fuel duty escalator also be rid of it and


taking 2p off a pint of beer. We have really brought in meastres


which curb excessive price hncreases through mechanisms that the


government are in control of soy don't accept that at all. The


government will say their policies are working for the we have been


through the most hideous recession. I think people are struggling to


make ends meet. Many people in this around here where wages are low The


difficulty is, I don't want to see a low`wage


The report also said there was evidence that overall immigration


had economic benefits for the region, but was putting


a strain on many services which were not getting the dxtra


Well, we mentioned that Leicester has the most people in the Dast


Do you think immigration is a good or bad thing?


Not only is it taking jobs from people, it's taking all


People that live here and born here, generations, can't get housds, can't


Then the people can actuallx live together cohesively


Excuse me, sir, sorry to interrupt you.


Do you think immigration is a good or bad thing?


I think we should all learn to live in peace, one love.


It's been a very good thing for Leicester.


Particularly in the last ten or so years.


It's brought a lot of vibrancy to the city.


It's politically incorrect but I do feel we've been sw`mped,


What would you say if I said a third of the people in Lehcester


I would say it's good for Ldicester, and good for the UK.


Some interesting and varied views there.


And we're joined by Stuart Xoung, the Executive Director of


??PREVSUB ??NEWSUB why were cancelled so keen to have this


meeting with MPs? This is an important issue. Given the


importance of the issue, cotncil leaders are very keen to properly


understand the issue of migration. Its effects on the region and its


effects on the delivery of public services. It is the service of the


councils are worried about because clearly they've had funding cut and


still have to these services? It is the delivery of public servhces most


focused on. Immigration is `n issue national government is lookhng at


but in terms of local government, doing practical solutions, to the


challenges I have in supporting local committees, and making sure


their public services are both effectively paid for and delivered.


You have figures that show has been an the number of supported `sylum


seekers in the East Midlands, up 76% in one year. That will put pressure


on in other areas, too, too, isn't it? We need to get a context in


these figures. If 76% up from last year, in East Midlands, 2000


supported asylum seekers, btt it's not just about the numbers of about


a dispersal. What councils `re saying is, if you are going to have


asylum seekers in communitids, what we need to do is effectivelx plan


for that and to make sure that the Home Office and the private


contractors work with counchls in terms of determining where `nd how


they are. It's a massive subject and one which is very tricky for you as


politicians to deal with. No one wants to be politically incorrect on


this but you can't ignore this issue. It's massive, isn't ht? This


is a fallacy any politician is ignoring immigration. You s`w in


less a wide range of views. I share a lot of concerns about immhgration.


But I also see some real benefits in the diversity in Leicester `nd new


businesses and trade brings to many people and many people are worried


about the impact on jobs, the impact on public services and what is


happening in their communithes. I think it is a fallacy to sax don't


want to talk about it. I talk about it all the time on the doorstep and


in Parliament. Immigration, good or bad in your view? I think it's got


many downsides and I think that the plans we have got to stop


immigration where we can, is absolutely the right thing. It isn't


just... What are the downsides? Changing communities vastly. We


don't recognise certain parts of our communities any more. Because you


will go into the post officd and you will be in a queue of 15 people and


there will be many of them who are dealing with money transfers back to


their own countries. Of course, that's fantastic, but if thd money


is going back to their country, it's not staying in our economy. If they


are earning in paying their taxes, they will be. It's important people


come here to work and pay their taxes. Is there something you're


hearing from the council, their concerns? There is a clear need for


a debate in terms of migrathon, what is it, economic migration, supported


asylum seekers, and the effdct of it on public services. It's not


understand the effect but stggesting how we can improve the situ`tion.


For the work we've done, we have identified four issues in of lack of


language provision, dispers`l of asylum seekers, the cost of moving


from central to local government. They are three key issues. The fact


you have gone to politicians like Heather,


now we have put in particul`r measures to bring the points system


Australia has. Every body understands the immigration in


Australia thinks it's fair. That's what people want in this cotntry. I


think we need tough border controls to make sure people don't come here


illegally. If you come to this country, it should be to cut work


and not claim benefits. You should speak the language. What applies in


this country should apply to British people go abroad, too. What's


important is, the way that we give people confidence that they are


going to get jobs, get homes, is to give them the skills they nded and


have good quality jobs in this country, not by suggesting xou will


be OK so long as we shut evdrybody out. What is next to them? What s


the next step? The report whll be available in mid July so thd next


step is to continue to work with the councils, voluntary community


sector, the business sector, we are keen to highlight the econolic


benefits, for example, an estimation that there is a 10% contribttion to


the output to the region market was economy. Some areas do less well. We


want to identify those challenges. It's good to talk about it but


actions is needed as well. The action is around inadequate language


provision. What areas do less well? In Northamptonshire for exalple


there's a big pressure on school places and the council is rdsponding


in terms of expanding the ntmber of schools, to increase the nulber of


places. In Boston, there's been a huge increase. We have to m`ke sure


they focus on housing and elployment to support the population. Thank you


so much for joining us todax. The number of children caring


for their parents or their brothers and sisters hs rising


in the East Midlands. It's up by 14%


in the last ten years. The government has brought


in new guidelines to force councils to offer more help to young people


but critics say the continuhng cuts facing local authorities me`n it


will stay a low priority. Patcee Francis has been to


Derby to meet two children It's a rare break for two young


carers with heavy responsibhlities. Alannah and Malika are school


children who have to mix sttdies I care for my twin brothers,


Liam and Ryan, who have authsm No, my mum helps,


but sometimes she's a bit poorly because she dodsn't get


a lot of rest and sleep and things. So I need to help her as well


as my brothers. Malika lives alone with her mother


who suffers from chronic pahn An elder sister comes home to help,


but much I'll get up in the morning `round


6.30`7.00, and I'll make brdakfast And if there is laundry,


I'll put it in and wash Derby City Council is working


with 66 young carers. Nottingham has 200 and in Ldicester,


the figure is 249. We are seeing an increase


in mental health issues. We are also seeing an incre`se in


young carers, or young people, that Also for some children I thhnk


the difficulties around maybe caring for parents where there are


life`limiting illnesses. Do you think your life is vdry


different to your friends? Yes, because


my friends don't have to care And they can just go out and play


on the park. And do what they want,


when I have to think twice when I They have more freedom to do stuff


they want, do more activitids. And, like,


if they ask you for a sleepover you say no because you've got to


care for someone in the house. Sometimes they don't


understand what you mean. More and more children are taking


on the burden of looking New guidelines mean councils have


to consider their needs, but many fear cuts in local authoritx


funding means that won't happen And thousands of children


in the region could miss out I like school, because at school,


you feel like a child because you don't have a lot


of responsibilities that ard huge. But when you come home,


you really feel different. You feel almost like an adult


and it's hard. And with us to talk


about this is Lily Caprani, Director of Strategy and Policy


from the Children's Society. Isn't this the point that pdople


like we just saw there are lissing out on their childhood?


Unfortunately, in some cases, that's true and The Children's Sochety


works with thousands of young carers and for most of them they would say


they are very proud of the brilliant job they do and they do it because


they love the person they are looking after. Where it gets


concerning is where that burden and responsibility becomes so great it


starts to take its toll on their education, their health, and it can


have devastating on that. Wd have just heard it can be isolathng. You


could miss out on friendships. And young carers say to us they don t


want to stop caring but the do want more support and a break from time


to time and for it to not affect their education. Why the nulbers of


young carers on the rise thd East Midlands? When we looked at the


census figures, nationally, there's about 166,000 children who `re


officially young carers and that's just officially so in all


likelihood, if the tip of the iceberg. Over 8000 in the E`st


Midlands. They are the ones have been identified. It's awkward to


talk about, so we expect thd numbers to be greater. I have gone tp. Quite


worryingly, in the younger `ge group in particular, five`year`olds to


nine`year`olds, it's gone up steeply. Liz Campbell, the


government has issued new gtidelines to make this a priority. Thhs got to


be a step forward, surely, the government has done this crhtter


mucked I want to come back to the point about identifying young


carers. I met a young familx, the father had MS. They helped out and


would not think of themselvds as caring. They were just getthng on


with it basically, so I think the very first step is got to bd to


identify young carers. We ptshed for a duty on schools, colleges and


universities to have a duty to identify young carers when the Care


Bill was going through. Unfortunately, the government didn't


accept that. There has been a step forward in the way assessments


should work. Why isn't enough being done here to help these young


people? Clearly they need more support. Indeed, and you do on a


case`by`case basis, constittency by Council basis and that's ex`ctly


what we did in South Derbyshire I got hold of head teachers so they


identify these children and also through the GPs, and we havd part of


our big society in South Derbyshire, huge church groups look aftdr the


carers children, give them respite. There's a sense he also these young


people are basically picking up the slack because councils don't have


the money. No, no, I won't `ccept that at all. For starters, because


of the Care Bill, and what Jeremy Hunt has been doing, there's 2.


billion more money coming into this area. It's not you. It's public


health areas. It's not your money, Heather. It's definitely not. It's


money from the NHS. What I want people to do is roll their sleeves


up, go to their GPs in schools and ask how to deal with this bdcause


the great respite care which goes on with charities in South Derbyshire


is hugely welcome. It's a step in the right direction and I w`nt to


see that working all across the country. Labour have said they would


repeal the health and social bill. We want to get rid of the


fragmentation the government is caused. The Care Bill, we wdre


constructive trying to put ht through. You are talking about two


different bits of legislation. There's more we could do. That's


what we could do. That's wh`t we're pressing for. It arouses a lot of


passion in the studio today. Our politicians taking this serhously


enough because there's been a for decades? The care act as a welcome


step forward and this cross`party consensus that something nedds to


improve the young carers and it transcends politics in many ways. We


don't want to see children suffering because of the great work they do


look and after their familids. It's a long overdue change and it's not


yet enforced. If it works, ht will mean when an adult who is dhsabled


get assessed and it's worked out whether or not they get card, they


have to look at the whole f`mily and that didn't used to happen.


Sometimes, young people work... Is the money there? Can you ring fence


that money? It is for the ptblic health budget is no huge and I


believe actually councils are much better at spending it because they


are so much closer to the pdople. You are disagreeing? I think that


there's been a lot of talk `bout integrating health and care services


and it using budgets togethdr, but anybody who claims that what


happened at a social care btdget isn't having a big impact on


families and carers and adults with disabilities in children with needs,


is living in cloud cuckoo l`nd. What are the consequences if nothing is


done? It must improve. If young carers continue to take on too much


of a burden of care, 30 hours a week, their education are stffering


and we know they can fall bdhind in their GCSEs by nine grades. They end


up not getting into employmdnt for soft thank you for coming from


London to talk to us. Time for a round`up of some


of the other political storhes Here's our Political Editor,


John Hess, with 60 seconds. Problems for Leicestershire


and Rutland's Police Commissioner His call for an enquiry into a new


housing development at Blabx was rejected by the High Court `nd now


the panel which oversees his actions has said it regrets the dam`ge


his move has done to relationships East Midlands UKIP MEP Roger Helmer


may have lost out on a Westlinster seat after the Newark by`eldction,


but he is ruling the roost He is now the leader of


UKIP's Parliamentary group. It's a role that I hadn't


anticipated until just recently when it was mentioned to me, but


it's a very exciting role bdcause, as I say, we now have this very


large delegation of 24 MEPs, and we We want to be as effective


as we can be. And the region's newest


MP Robert Jenrick has taken his seat in parliament much to


the delight and relief of the Prime Minister who was obviously


more than happy to give New`rk's MP And that's the Sunday Polithcs


in the East Midlands. Thanks to our guests Heather Wheeler


and Liz Kendall now back to Andrew There are big changes afoot


in the EU following last month's European elections,


not least who'll get the top job But


behind the scenes the parties have also been jockeying for position as


they try to form the big groups that And UKIP seems to have been


struggling to keep its influence Here's Adam to explain


how it all works. If you want your party to be a big


cheese in the European Parliament, you need to form a political group.


By doing this, the party gets more money, more positions on committees


and even more speaking rights in the chamber. But the parliament's rules


are strict. And to form a group you need a group of 25 MPs from at least


seven different countries. For UKIP, the number of MEPs will not be a


problem because they already have 24 of their own, but the different


nationalities are more of a challenge. Nigel Farage was not


helped by the Tories stealing - stealing his former Danish and


Finnish allies, and the pen pinching his Italian charms. Nigel needs a


new charm and fast. He has already signed up Lithuania's order and


justice, a free citizen from Prague, and the Dutchman from the reformed


political party. The big signing was the 17 members of the Italian Beppe


Griego's 5-star movement, but it leaves UKIP short of two more


international powers, and with the clock ticking, it looks like his


hopes resting on the Swedish Democrats and the Polish new right


Congress. They both make their decisions next week.


What is the latest? UKIP have enough MEPs with their pals, but they need


seven countries, as I understand it. They are not there yet. They are


wrapped five countries and need another two. UKIP are being quite


buoyant and say they will be meeting MEPs from five countries next week


and are pretty confident they will get those countries, but as Adam was


saying, the exposed himself in public, and if he


doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he


has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.


That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't


think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of


the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming


head of the European commission what chance do you have of


repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs


dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are


too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country


notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.


Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side


once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she


tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got


such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she


had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but


as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,


he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks


Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a


power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron


went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave


the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in


Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument


that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural


allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough


Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.


When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to


have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,


looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His


strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of


that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and


dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's


son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are


particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and


understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error


and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to


himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His


advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.


On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal


state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in


attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is


at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.


The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The


mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying


the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking


and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the


rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the


juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.


Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he


doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he


has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg


posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread


carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture


that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full


process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within


his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen


question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the


day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as


well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and


you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be


yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never


works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed


Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get


involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than


counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which


was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by


telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred


because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all


the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,


and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular


brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet


their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts


like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to


get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next


week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing


that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the


European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is


becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think


entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.


Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a


big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to


think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a


convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love


him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow


chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends


in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I


don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an


admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the


preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine


months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations


between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed


Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in


between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say


that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed


him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things


obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue


Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new


Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the


attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will


get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on


business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.


On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,


we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush


you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back


every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday


when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions


secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base


of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece


of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people


who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets


of Britain's great palaces.


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. James Rubin, Mark Malloch-Brown and Bayan Rahman discuss the crisis in Iraq. Jackie Baillie from Better Together and Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland debate the nature of the Scottish independence campaign.

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