29/06/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


29/06/2014

With Marie Ashby. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat.


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No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.

:00:38.:00:47.

But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?

:00:48.:00:51.

Doctors want to ban smoking outright.

:00:52.:00:54.

A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all

:00:55.:00:57.

Fewer hospital beds and fewer medical staff `

:00:58.:01:11.

Plus, should teachers sit exams with their students?

:01:12.:01:28.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:29.:01:31.

panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

:01:32.:01:42.

They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in

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Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence

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He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made

:01:48.:01:49.

it big in the world of European politic.

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I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg

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He'll soon be President of the European Commission,

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He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.

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But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up

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on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.

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-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist

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So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes

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of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?

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Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington

:02:33.:02:37.

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr

:02:38.:02:43.

Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got

:02:44.:02:46.

harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The

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majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts

:02:52.:02:57.

power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right

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cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European

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Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European

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countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of

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Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on

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how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the

:03:25.:03:26.

mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming

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European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The

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Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to

:03:38.:03:43.

integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.

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What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at

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different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new

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Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the

:04:03.:04:12.

approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime

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Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general

:04:18.:04:20.

acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to

:04:21.:04:25.

the single currency will want to press forward with closer

:04:26.:04:28.

integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country

:04:29.:04:33.

in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern

:04:34.:04:38.

that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with

:04:39.:04:42.

28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the

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extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and

:04:49.:04:53.

integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable

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geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is

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that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the

:05:02.:05:04.

slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which

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backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that

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there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to

:05:24.:05:26.

seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the

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election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the

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British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the

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British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will

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take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron

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secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,

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not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with

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Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't

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think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of

:06:00.:06:03.

reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do

:06:04.:06:11.

put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission

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to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers

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around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things

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cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger

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of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of

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work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of

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countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election

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results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing

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parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing

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real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch

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decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the

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condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would

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have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.

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Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role

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in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed

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up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from

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that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I

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think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and

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it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament

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to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.

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They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are

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the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms

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of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The

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current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The

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Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?

:08:16.:08:19.

We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at

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the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on

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whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you

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think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but

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also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't

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challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.

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Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of

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State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the

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existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He

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doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is

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the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the

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position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a

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distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government

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now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and

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the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that

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important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and

:09:29.:09:33.

that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a

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whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going

:09:38.:09:44.

to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in

:09:45.:09:49.

2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For

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one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press

:09:54.:09:56.

ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done

:09:57.:10:00.

in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain

:10:01.:10:06.

outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of

:10:07.:10:10.

migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this

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week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will

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you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the

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government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the

:10:21.:10:24.

election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg

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speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,

:10:32.:10:36.

more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is

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all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's

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not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in

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the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries

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those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories

:10:55.:10:58.

and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,

:10:59.:11:02.

will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and

:11:03.:11:04.

perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank

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you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there

:11:13.:11:17.

is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring

:11:18.:11:20.

back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I

:11:21.:11:25.

think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,

:11:26.:11:29.

those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay

:11:30.:11:33.

regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on

:11:34.:11:36.

renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would

:11:37.:11:41.

vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20

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years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only

:11:46.:11:49.

stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be

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re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the

:11:54.:12:00.

referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single

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biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not

:12:04.:12:08.

what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure

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to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against

:12:14.:12:17.

Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr

:12:18.:12:21.

Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only

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because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these

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changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that

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would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the

:12:34.:12:39.

biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of

:12:40.:12:44.

coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of

:12:45.:12:51.

benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of

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movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is

:12:55.:12:57.

a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is

:12:58.:13:02.

also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was

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encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not

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say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted

:13:11.:13:14.

in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The

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fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when

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he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling

:13:29.:13:31.

to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela

:13:32.:13:33.

Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the

:13:34.:13:36.

European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,

:13:37.:13:39.

he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this

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basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was

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presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there

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was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I

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understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.

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I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that

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he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his

:14:06.:14:10.

backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They

:14:11.:14:14.

don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to

:14:15.:14:17.

draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that

:14:18.:14:21.

sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to

:14:22.:14:24.

Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people

:14:25.:14:28.

will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on

:14:29.:14:33.

Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for

:14:34.:14:40.

immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who

:14:41.:14:42.

John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is

:14:43.:14:44.

replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by

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arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by

:14:49.:14:50.

staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would

:14:51.:15:12.

leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common

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foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims

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which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change

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anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of

:15:27.:15:34.

these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants

:15:35.:15:39.

to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the

:15:40.:15:44.

chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,

:15:45.:15:49.

doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big

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things to get through first in domestic politics before we even

:15:57.:16:02.

reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom

:16:03.:16:07.

this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,

:16:08.:16:13.

are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to

:16:14.:16:17.

be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they

:16:18.:16:23.

going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the

:16:24.:16:27.

sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK

:16:28.:16:32.

stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David

:16:33.:16:38.

Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a

:16:39.:16:42.

danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes

:16:43.:16:49.

correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press

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comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold

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Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to

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say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is

:17:05.:17:08.

different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it

:17:09.:17:14.

cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government

:17:15.:17:18.

to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land

:17:19.:17:24.

will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on

:17:25.:17:28.

the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European

:17:29.:17:34.

Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the

:17:35.:17:38.

line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting

:17:39.:17:42.

dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will

:17:43.:17:54.

not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.

:17:55.:18:00.

If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is

:18:01.:18:05.

working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority

:18:06.:18:09.

of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see

:18:10.:18:14.

there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined

:18:15.:18:19.

ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had

:18:20.:18:24.

about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it

:18:25.:18:31.

is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a

:18:32.:18:34.

referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious

:18:35.:18:40.

consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking

:18:41.:18:46.

about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people

:18:47.:18:50.

to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his

:18:51.:18:57.

party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a

:18:58.:19:01.

whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything

:19:02.:19:06.

we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future

:19:07.:19:10.

integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are

:19:11.:19:15.

upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being

:19:16.:19:20.

passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are

:19:21.:19:24.

prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in

:19:25.:19:29.

charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into

:19:30.:19:34.

which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence

:19:35.:19:39.

Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib

:19:40.:19:50.

Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what

:19:51.:19:54.

the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the

:19:55.:19:57.

choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political

:19:58.:20:02.

leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we

:20:03.:20:07.

went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the

:20:08.:20:11.

individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I

:20:12.:20:17.

mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his

:20:18.:20:21.

views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a

:20:22.:20:29.

small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of

:20:30.:20:33.

America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is

:20:34.:20:44.

really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we

:20:45.:20:56.

closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the

:20:57.:21:02.

idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers

:21:03.:21:11.

back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly

:21:12.:21:19.

been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that

:21:20.:21:24.

has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are

:21:25.:21:29.

we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship

:21:30.:21:33.

with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or

:21:34.:21:45.

another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on

:21:46.:21:50.

and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can

:21:51.:21:54.

remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the

:21:55.:21:59.

referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it

:22:00.:22:05.

sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is

:22:06.:22:10.

a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we

:22:11.:22:17.

will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to

:22:18.:22:27.

ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I

:22:28.:22:32.

thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the

:22:33.:22:36.

Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional

:22:37.:22:43.

implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to

:22:44.:22:47.

established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we

:22:48.:22:55.

mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the

:22:56.:22:58.

institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by

:22:59.:23:03.

federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate

:23:04.:23:10.

but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains

:23:11.:23:14.

national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it

:23:15.:23:23.

makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the

:23:24.:23:27.

Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU

:23:28.:23:38.

wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you

:23:39.:23:42.

liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to

:23:43.:23:48.

you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be

:23:49.:23:52.

disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only

:23:53.:23:58.

had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,

:23:59.:24:03.

France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of

:24:04.:24:09.

menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the

:24:10.:24:15.

North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an

:24:16.:24:23.

army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms

:24:24.:24:32.

of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you

:24:33.:24:37.

can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having

:24:38.:24:41.

the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the

:24:42.:24:46.

United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,

:24:47.:24:52.

Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is

:24:53.:24:58.

an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want

:24:59.:25:03.

to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a

:25:04.:25:07.

referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he

:25:08.:25:23.

was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and

:25:24.:25:28.

restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw

:25:29.:25:31.

everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born

:25:32.:25:36.

after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those

:25:37.:25:41.

plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British

:25:42.:25:47.

was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men

:25:48.:25:52.

smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a

:25:53.:25:57.

political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in

:25:58.:26:02.

those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,

:26:03.:26:12.

more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that

:26:13.:26:17.

thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in

:26:18.:26:28.

enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately

:26:29.:26:31.

we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think

:26:32.:26:38.

it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has

:26:39.:26:43.

improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.

:26:44.:26:48.

Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on

:26:49.:26:54.

those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the

:26:55.:26:58.

introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride

:26:59.:27:05.

in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.

:27:06.:27:18.

We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson

:27:19.:27:21.

from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban

:27:22.:27:24.

on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark

:27:25.:27:28.

They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are

:27:29.:27:38.

bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in

:27:39.:27:47.

our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as

:27:48.:27:52.

children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start

:27:53.:27:57.

smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for

:27:58.:28:01.

you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we

:28:02.:28:06.

totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make

:28:07.:28:11.

that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol

:28:12.:28:16.

eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is

:28:17.:28:19.

totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes

:28:20.:28:24.

which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping

:28:25.:28:28.

children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops

:28:29.:28:34.

shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so

:28:35.:28:39.

you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a

:28:40.:28:45.

36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you

:28:46.:28:50.

will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the

:28:51.:28:54.

younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily

:28:55.:28:58.

addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this

:28:59.:29:04.

becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you

:29:05.:29:09.

would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have

:29:10.:29:13.

no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if

:29:14.:29:17.

we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2

:29:18.:29:23.

years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't

:29:24.:29:27.

have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their

:29:28.:29:31.

20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes

:29:32.:29:36.

the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting

:29:37.:29:39.

cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get

:29:40.:29:45.

better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is

:29:46.:29:56.

going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.

:29:57.:30:01.

Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see

:30:02.:30:04.

adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is

:30:05.:30:09.

for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop

:30:10.:30:13.

young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they

:30:14.:30:17.

never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds

:30:18.:30:27.

who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government

:30:28.:30:33.

increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to

:30:34.:30:37.

18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,

:30:38.:30:43.

we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal

:30:44.:30:46.

says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a

:30:47.:30:52.

motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There

:30:53.:30:55.

is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they

:30:56.:30:58.

doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not

:30:59.:31:03.

about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and

:31:04.:31:06.

they have to get their act together because they are bringing the

:31:07.:31:10.

medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about

:31:11.:31:15.

things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,

:31:16.:31:20.

but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes

:31:21.:31:22.

altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s

:31:23.:31:28.

not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to

:31:29.:31:33.

smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would

:31:34.:31:37.

be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So

:31:38.:31:44.

even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,

:31:45.:31:47.

just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the

:31:48.:31:54.

habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so

:31:55.:31:58.

that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so

:31:59.:32:02.

important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One

:32:03.:32:06.

thing you will find is that throughout the world people is

:32:07.:32:09.

looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and

:32:10.:32:13.

different countries like Australia, they were the first with a

:32:14.:32:17.

standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all

:32:18.:32:20.

of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the

:32:21.:32:25.

tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with

:32:26.:32:29.

cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going

:32:30.:32:33.

head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal

:32:34.:32:37.

representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "

:32:38.:32:40.

So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?

:32:41.:32:43.

Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,

:32:44.:32:45.

but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what

:32:46.:32:48.

parliament might look like after the next year's general election.

:32:49.:32:49.

Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to

:32:50.:32:56.

Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of

:32:57.:32:59.

Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010

:33:00.:33:05.

more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but

:33:06.:33:08.

not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.

:33:09.:33:17.

Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female

:33:18.:33:23.

MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and

:33:24.:33:29.

the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have

:33:30.:33:34.

selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and

:33:35.:33:37.

to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been

:33:38.:33:40.

trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts

:33:41.:33:45.

and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the

:33:46.:33:50.

all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the

:33:51.:33:55.

whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long

:33:56.:33:58.

way to go on the issue of being representative. So we

:33:59.:34:10.

way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack

:34:11.:34:10.

of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.

:34:11.:34:11.

In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they

:34:12.:34:43.

got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%

:34:44.:34:49.

The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy

:34:50.:34:51.

at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most

:34:52.:34:53.

marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn

:34:54.:34:56.

In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected

:34:57.:34:59.

If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones

:35:00.:35:05.

they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.

:35:06.:35:08.

The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won

:35:09.:35:12.

at the last election, if they manage that, they would have

:35:13.:35:15.

However all the indications are it could be

:35:16.:35:20.

a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform

:35:21.:35:24.

swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.

:35:25.:35:29.

One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all

:35:30.:35:33.

options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is

:35:34.:35:36.

The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at

:35:37.:35:50.

evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life

:35:51.:35:57.

experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.

:35:58.:36:01.

They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be

:36:02.:36:03.

represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary

:36:04.:36:07.

projection for gender, According to the last census

:36:08.:36:09.

in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from

:36:10.:36:14.

black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they

:36:15.:36:20.

get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party

:36:21.:36:23.

were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME

:36:24.:36:28.

candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,

:36:29.:36:34.

that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats

:36:35.:36:38.

don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling

:36:39.:36:46.

on to their current number of seats they would have two,

:36:47.:36:52.

giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost

:36:53.:36:55.

their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix

:36:56.:36:57.

of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve

:36:58.:37:07.

the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to

:37:08.:37:09.

a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford

:37:10.:37:13.

or Cambridge. Only a fifth

:37:14.:37:21.

of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with

:37:22.:37:29.

the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like

:37:30.:37:32.

us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they

:37:33.:37:36.

cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the

:37:37.:37:41.

turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20

:37:42.:37:44.

points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and

:37:45.:37:47.

that is getting worse with single election.

:37:48.:37:49.

And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a

:37:50.:37:52.

Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get

:37:53.:37:55.

It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:56.:38:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:05.:38:07.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.

:38:08.:38:11.

The power of the backbencher. the Sunday Politics where you are.

:38:12.:38:23.

We meet the MPs who make Prime Ministers tremble.

:38:24.:38:26.

If you can swap your desire for power for asking diffictlt

:38:27.:38:29.

Being a backbench MP can be very rewarding indeed.

:38:30.:38:38.

Should teachers sit exams alongside their pupils?

:38:39.:38:42.

I think it just adds added pressure, because when you're in your exams,

:38:43.:38:45.

you don't want to turn round and your teacher is sitting there,

:38:46.:38:49.

you want to be calm and ready for the exam, so I don't think ht is

:38:50.:38:53.

Hello, I'm Mhairi Ashby and my guests this

:38:54.:38:59.

week, two backbenchers who cause more trouble than most.

:39:00.:39:01.

Andrew Bridgen and is the Conservative MP for

:39:02.:39:06.

North West Leicestershire and John Mann is the Labour MP for B`ssetlaw

:39:07.:39:09.

But first, the plans for a radical shake`up of hdalth

:39:10.:39:12.

Under proposals announced this week, Leicestershire and Rutland will

:39:13.:39:15.

lose acute services and have fewer hospital beds.

:39:16.:39:18.

The Better Care Together pl`n unveiled by health bosses w`rns that

:39:19.:39:23.

NHS services in the two counties are heading

:39:24.:39:27.

for a ?400 million shortfall unless something is done to cut costs.

:39:28.:39:30.

The plans include reducing the number of acute care hospit`ls in

:39:31.:39:33.

Leicester from three to two, with Leicester General Hospital dealing

:39:34.:39:37.

It also calls for investment in better facilities

:39:38.:39:43.

The plan is expected to lead to fewer hospital beds and job cuts.

:39:44.:39:49.

Well, Andrew Bridgen, fully last week, we were talking about the

:39:50.:39:52.

NHS Trust in Leicester having the biggest debt in the country

:39:53.:39:58.

These latest cuts are as a direct result of this, or they?

:39:59.:40:03.

No, these plans have been created by health care professionals

:40:04.:40:21.

looking forward to the future health care requhrements

:40:22.:40:22.

of the city and the county this is their response to that.

:40:23.:40:25.

What we are actually seeing is migration of health services

:40:26.:40:28.

So you're saying this has got nothing to do with the huge deficit

:40:29.:40:32.

The trust had a ?39 million deficit last year, I don't

:40:33.:40:36.

I think Peterborough has got far the biggest deficit.

:40:37.:40:40.

No, Leicestershire Leicester was higher.

:40:41.:40:41.

That has got to be addressed, but what we are looking

:40:42.:40:43.

at is a long`term plan for the shape of health card moving

:40:44.:40:46.

So you're saying this is a good thing?

:40:47.:40:50.

Most people do not want to go into hospital, most people want to

:40:51.:40:55.

GPs are going to be offering more primary care, and it is good for the

:40:56.:41:00.

patients, it is good for elderly people with complex morbidities

:41:01.:41:03.

There is a funding gap of ?400 million over the next four xears.

:41:04.:41:06.

Well, you know that health has had a special case as far

:41:07.:41:09.

as the austerity measures under the Coalition Government.

:41:10.:41:10.

We have actually increased health spending well above inflation,

:41:11.:41:13.

which is in contrast to what Labour would have done, they would have cut

:41:14.:41:16.

Well, John, the health servhces behind this plan have told ts that

:41:17.:41:20.

they want to use the financhal challenges to reorganise and come up

:41:21.:41:23.

The report actually says, working together will provide more

:41:24.:41:27.

community`based projects and support for patients to live at

:41:28.:41:29.

Keeping people out of hospital is a good thing?

:41:30.:41:42.

Anyone going into hospital is a bad thing,

:41:43.:41:44.

However much Andrew and the Tories try and rest this up, cuts cuts

:41:45.:41:50.

cuts, the cutting the National Health Service and the way to change

:41:51.:41:53.

the National Health Service is by putting money in and by improving it

:41:54.:41:56.

and by ensuring everyone gets the best treatment. These ctts,

:41:57.:41:58.

you know the phrase is workhng together, what is coming next?

:41:59.:42:01.

A huge cut, doctors jobs gohng, patients suffering, it is what this

:42:02.:42:04.

government is about, and we are going to see a lot more of ht.

:42:05.:42:11.

Stop dressing it up, Andrew, and start apologising.

:42:12.:42:14.

You start apologising for your manifesto last timd where

:42:15.:42:19.

you proposed what would havd been a 20% cut in the NHS budget.

:42:20.:42:22.

We protected that and gave it extra money.

:42:23.:42:24.

Is cuts, cuts, cuts, and we are seeing it in my `rea

:42:25.:42:29.

as well, we are seeing privatisation and Nottinghalshire

:42:30.:42:31.

Patients are starting to go private, because they can't get

:42:32.:42:38.

To be fair, Andrew the report says pretty clearly that thdre

:42:39.:42:42.

It actually says the exact number of job cuts is not yet clear,

:42:43.:42:47.

but it is not denying that there will be job cuts.

:42:48.:42:49.

That is because there is a migration of services

:42:50.:42:51.

from hospitals to GP practices and primary care, and that is the plan.

:42:52.:42:56.

At a time where we have got a huge shortage of GPs?

:42:57.:42:59.

GPs are running this now, through their clinical commissioning groups.

:43:00.:43:05.

They are shaping the structtre of care.

:43:06.:43:08.

For far too long, the NHS has been run from Whitehall

:43:09.:43:11.

What we are actually doing hs empowering

:43:12.:43:14.

the clinical professionals to come up with decisions of how thdy are

:43:15.:43:16.

Set more GPs on, well thank you very much.

:43:17.:43:20.

You have cut the training btdget, you've cut the numbers.

:43:21.:43:23.

It takes years to train up ` doctor, and you are cutting doctors,

:43:24.:43:26.

cutting nurses, cutting other health specialist

:43:27.:43:30.

Where would the NHS have bedn if Labour had got into power

:43:31.:43:36.

Not getting cut, and Bevan said you have got to stand up for thd NHS

:43:37.:43:47.

if you want it, now is the time for people to fight against you lot

:43:48.:43:51.

OK, well as we have just sedn, our guests might not agree on much,

:43:52.:43:56.

but there is one thing that they do definitely have in common,

:43:57.:43:59.

they are very effective exponents of the art of back benching.

:44:00.:44:02.

We thought while they were both here, we might

:44:03.:44:04.

find out a little bit more `bout how they go about their business.

:44:05.:44:07.

But first, Chris Doig takes a look at how the backbenchdr can be

:44:08.:44:10.

If you are Cameron, Clegg, Milleband or Farage, there hs

:44:11.:44:19.

a threat more scary even th`n that of a bad opinion poll, becatse more

:44:20.:44:23.

dangerous than the public's opinion is the opinion of the men and women

:44:24.:44:26.

Does my right honourable friend `gree

:44:27.:44:33.

with me that continued criminalisation the people whose

:44:34.:44:35.

only crime is being poor is completely untenable?

:44:36.:44:37.

The evasiveness of the government on this matter has not escaped

:44:38.:44:40.

so much no one can remember where the party line is, or their mouth is

:44:41.:44:47.

What do I do with my money, do I take it out this rotten,

:44:48.:44:57.

Backbench MPs can be unruly, disloyal...

:44:58.:45:01.

With power in their constittency, and some independently wealthy like

:45:02.:45:15.

Andrew Bridgen, many back bdnchers feel they have little to lose.

:45:16.:45:19.

My questions surround this project have been asked, but

:45:20.:45:21.

As we all know, the best se`t on the school bus is the one at thd back.

:45:22.:45:26.

You are grossly negligent, or you are grossly incompetdnt.

:45:27.:45:28.

It seems the backbenchers have all the fun too.

:45:29.:45:30.

But wait, we are forgetting something very important.

:45:31.:45:32.

The former West Derbyshire LP Matthew Parris recalls tellhng

:45:33.:45:35.

his constituency association that he would settle for being Home

:45:36.:45:37.

Secretary, because Prime Minister would have sounded pretentious.

:45:38.:45:41.

In the end, maybe Minister for Transport, he thought, tntil he

:45:42.:45:46.

lowered his ambitions to just being on a select committee and going to

:45:47.:45:49.

junkets to the Humber Bridgd, or a bus carriage in Toronto.

:45:50.:45:52.

Not surprisingly, Mr Parris ended up in a much more important career

:45:53.:45:55.

The crushing disappointment doled out by the slippery pole is a game

:45:56.:46:06.

Almost every new MP secretlx wants to live at number ten, have tea with

:46:07.:46:15.

the Queen, and have a speci`l Branch codenamed like Princess.

:46:16.:46:17.

Most will be the bridesmaid and never the bride.

:46:18.:46:19.

But if you can stomach the smell of regret and unfulfilled

:46:20.:46:22.

potential, then the life of a backbencher isn't too bad.

:46:23.:46:24.

They are paid ?67,000 a year, you get to tell the governmdnt what

:46:25.:46:27.

it is doing wrong, and the thoughts of select commhttees,

:46:28.:46:30.

panels of backbench MPs stuffed full of the mischievous and vengdful

:46:31.:46:35.

I'm a big fan of getting answers from you.

:46:36.:46:48.

If you can swap your desire for power

:46:49.:46:51.

for asking difficult questions and causing trouble, being a backbench

:46:52.:46:54.

Four Chris Doiges there for the price of one, I think you could say.

:46:55.:47:07.

A few years ago, Andrew, people were saying that the backbencher was

:47:08.:47:10.

dead, that MPs just followed their leader, but I guess with Tony Blair

:47:11.:47:13.

and Gordon Brown, they had huge majorities and they didn't have to

:47:14.:47:18.

listen, but now that this is a coalition, do backbenchers

:47:19.:47:21.

like yourself have more powdr because every vote counts?

:47:22.:47:23.

I think turning to an intakd of the more independently minded, ht was

:47:24.:47:26.

a very large intake, so it really altered the sort of structure of the

:47:27.:47:31.

house, where a small intake can be absorbed into the status quo

:47:32.:47:33.

I think because the intake was so large,

:47:34.:47:35.

I think the fact that we ard in a coalition, and I think for `

:47:36.:47:44.

Conservative backbenchers to realise that 57 Liberal Democrats h`ve such

:47:45.:47:49.

power over the government, ht is not hard then to work out that hf I can

:47:50.:47:53.

get 56 of my colleagues on the backbenches of my party, we can have

:47:54.:47:56.

as much say over what the government policy is as the Liberal Delocrats.

:47:57.:47:59.

I don't know about more powdr, but the role of an MP is not to

:48:00.:48:10.

spend their time sucking up to some top politician and saying ghve me

:48:11.:48:13.

a job, it is to represent the people who have put you there.

:48:14.:48:16.

And, you know, for better or for worse, to put forward what you

:48:17.:48:21.

If the government is doing something good, get more of it for yotr area,

:48:22.:48:25.

and if they are doing something bad, stop it in your area.

:48:26.:48:28.

Well, we know, John, that you are always very happy to offer `

:48:29.:48:31.

friendly advice to your own leader, but if Labour do get into power

:48:32.:48:37.

does that outspoken persona that you have, does that hold you back?

:48:38.:48:41.

If it comes to getting a job in Cabinet, if they get into power?

:48:42.:48:44.

I am not really interested in the greasy pole.

:48:45.:48:46.

Do I want to live in ten Downing St, I can tell you, no.

:48:47.:48:52.

I wouldn't dream of living hn some kind of a mansion house likd that.

:48:53.:48:55.

If Labour is in power, I will be there twisting arls to

:48:56.:48:58.

ensure that the very best comes to my area, so that there is more money

:48:59.:49:02.

If there is more money for the NHS, I wanted.

:49:03.:49:07.

If there is more money for new roads, I want it.

:49:08.:49:09.

And I will get more access hf Labour is in power,

:49:10.:49:12.

And you don't care that it might damage your career?

:49:13.:49:16.

By being outspoken and upsetting a few people along the way,

:49:17.:49:19.

If I don't upset people on the way, I am not doing the job propdrly

:49:20.:49:24.

I do, at the end of the day, common sense isn't always

:49:25.:50:04.

as common in the House of Commons as you'd like it to be and I think the

:50:05.:50:08.

However I finished being an MP, I want to look back at Hans`rd and

:50:09.:50:14.

say, yes, I don't take any of that back, everything I said I bdlieved

:50:15.:50:17.

Well give us some of the trhcks of the trade, then.

:50:18.:50:22.

How do you go about making an impact as a backbencher?

:50:23.:50:25.

Well, you get a government linister, and you say to them, indirectly

:50:26.:50:28.

I am going to make you a st`r and a hero, or I am going to make

:50:29.:50:32.

What backbenchers do have, we have the power of the argument, `nd

:50:33.:50:38.

if you make that argument wdll and you can persuade colleagues, not

:50:39.:50:42.

It is always about putting your case over well, isn't ht?

:50:43.:50:45.

Then you get a chance to make that case to the media, and if you take

:50:46.:50:49.

the people with you, the power of the argument is very strong.

:50:50.:50:52.

It's a shame he doesn't fault with me more often.

:50:53.:50:56.

He is always agreeing with le, I'm always speaking, and he's up there

:50:57.:50:59.

nodding, thumbs up all the time that is alliance across the chamber.

:51:00.:51:02.

What he needs to do is transfer that into votes.

:51:03.:51:05.

That might get some popularhty for you then.

:51:06.:51:07.

What effect has social medi` had for both of you?

:51:08.:51:09.

I mean, John, you take to Twitter quite a lot

:51:10.:51:11.

Oh, yes, I get plenty of abtse from people, normally from London.

:51:12.:51:14.

I am interested in what the good people further north think,

:51:15.:51:18.

They tell me, in no uncertahn terms, and I take

:51:19.:51:21.

their life experiences and their advice back into Parlhament.

:51:22.:51:23.

If it is a Labour Prime Minhster, they will be hearing

:51:24.:51:26.

from me what the people of Bassetlaw think In no uncertain terms.

:51:27.:51:29.

How much pressure do you cole under to toe the party line, though?

:51:30.:51:32.

Because you must come under pressure.

:51:33.:51:34.

On the government benches, obvious the votes are predominantly whipped.

:51:35.:51:36.

But at the end of the day, bigger all free vote if you are

:51:37.:51:39.

At the end of the day, it is down to each member's

:51:40.:51:43.

What I would say is to the listeners or the viewers is when we are

:51:44.:51:48.

discussing politics in the local pub, it is all black`and`whhte.

:51:49.:51:51.

It is a little more shades of grey when you're down taking part in it.

:51:52.:51:54.

You don't agree with each other at all, do you?

:51:55.:51:58.

Well, he is a favourite of privatising the NHS.

:51:59.:52:01.

I say to the whips, don't tell me how to vote, xour job

:52:02.:52:04.

Well, the latest target for Andrew Bridgen's fire is te`chers.

:52:05.:52:11.

He says that teachers should be sitting A`levels alongside

:52:12.:52:13.

In a moment, we will be hearing from a teacher's union

:52:14.:52:16.

on how they feel about the hdea but first Des Coleman's been back to

:52:17.:52:19.

school to hear from pupils who will be taking their A`levels next year.

:52:20.:52:23.

Well, I have come to this school in Hucknall, to ask a group

:52:24.:52:26.

Do you think teachers should set their A`level exams

:52:27.:52:29.

Like, they have already got their qualifications,

:52:30.:52:33.

I don't think you need them to take their A`level to prove that

:52:34.:52:39.

I think that your results speak for how they teach.

:52:40.:52:43.

I think it just adds added pressure, so when you are in your exal,

:52:44.:52:46.

you don't want to turn around, and your teacher is sitting there.

:52:47.:52:49.

You want to actually be call and ready for the exam,

:52:50.:52:51.

so I don't think it is necessary that they do it with you.

:52:52.:52:55.

Yes and no, really, because it would show their capability

:52:56.:52:57.

of teaching the subject, but now because, like Jodie said, you are in

:52:58.:53:00.

your exam, and seeing your teacher there could just add pressure.

:53:01.:53:03.

It is like, they have already got their

:53:04.:53:05.

I think all the teachers I have had no thoroughly about their stbject,

:53:06.:53:09.

but whether they are a born teacher and whether they are good

:53:10.:53:12.

at portraying that to their pupils is sometimes a different matter

:53:13.:53:14.

The problem is their teaching capabilities over because they are

:53:15.:53:19.

obviously going to be brillhant in their subject, but that doesn't

:53:20.:53:21.

necessarily mean they are going to be brilliant at teaching it.

:53:22.:53:24.

Thanks very much to the sixth formers At the National in Hucknall.

:53:25.:53:27.

Well, Ian Lever from the National Union of Teachers

:53:28.:53:29.

Well, I was going to say, I am actually reassured and

:53:30.:53:47.

not entirely surprised that the students there were saying that it

:53:48.:53:50.

They were more afraid of them actually being in the same

:53:51.:53:59.

room while they were taking their exam Partly that, but also

:54:00.:54:02.

one of the students there also said about the fact that there is more to

:54:03.:54:05.

You can see how this governlent at the moment seem to be absolutely

:54:06.:54:10.

obsessed with the fact that as long as somebody is a graduate they are

:54:11.:54:13.

quite capable of being in the classroom, they are even happy to

:54:14.:54:34.

in the classrooms in academhes and free schools, and their latest

:54:35.:54:37.

idea seems to be that anybody who happens to have a degree was retired

:54:38.:54:41.

Well, actually, the thrust of my debate about the A`levels was to

:54:42.:54:46.

reschedule the timing of thd exams so that people could get thd results

:54:47.:54:50.

and apply to university with known grades rather than a prediction

:54:51.:54:56.

We know that the predictions are four out of five are incorrdct,

:54:57.:55:04.

three are overpredicted out of five, and one is under predhcted.

:55:05.:55:07.

I thought that was the way to get the meritocr`cy,

:55:08.:55:09.

and get the best people to go to the best universities.

:55:10.:55:12.

But you were talking about teachers sitting exams?

:55:13.:55:14.

Or was that a flippant, throwaway remark?

:55:15.:55:15.

That actually came from a constituent of mine who is ` sixth

:55:16.:55:18.

former at the moment who actually e`mailed me on that day when we were

:55:19.:55:21.

debating about A level policy, and he said he thought that somd of the

:55:22.:55:25.

teachers on different coursds on A`levels were better than others.

:55:26.:55:27.

He thought that a good test of it for rigour would be to let the

:55:28.:55:31.

I agree with the pupils from the National in Hucknall.

:55:32.:55:38.

I mean, come on, you might as well have an MP in

:55:39.:55:42.

It means nothing, because times have moved on

:55:43.:55:45.

They are harder now, teachers are better, and a good teacher hsn't

:55:46.:55:50.

just with the knowledge which they certainly need, ht is the

:55:51.:55:52.

That is what makes a brilliant teacher, that inspires,

:55:53.:55:56.

What about an idea of taking exams earlier?

:55:57.:55:59.

Well, before I come to that, a lot of other students there were

:56:00.:56:02.

saying about the fact that they recognise the scrutiny that teachers

:56:03.:56:04.

are under at the moment, with classroom observations and

:56:05.:56:07.

It is a shame that that is not recognised

:56:08.:56:10.

Do they see this as more meddling, really?

:56:11.:56:15.

They ought to recognise that morale is at rock bottom at the molent

:56:16.:56:19.

A recent report showed that morale amongst teachers in this

:56:20.:56:21.

You are going to have a strike again, aren't you?

:56:22.:56:25.

Yes, and teachers don't strhke for nothing.

:56:26.:56:27.

They don't strike unless thdy get to the stage were morale is th`t bad.

:56:28.:56:30.

It is a shame that that isn't being recognised.

:56:31.:56:32.

The issue of, as John was s`ying, about it being more than just simply

:56:33.:56:35.

having knowledge and being `ble to impart that knowledge, recently

:56:36.:56:38.

There are huge changes coming in to the A`levels...

:56:39.:56:41.

The NUT requested an additional training day to

:56:42.:56:43.

Instead of having to sit ex`ms, that would have been far more

:56:44.:56:47.

useful, but that has been knocked back by Michael Gove.

:56:48.:56:49.

So you are saying you have got enough on your plate,

:56:50.:56:52.

without people coming in and suggesting the sort of things?

:56:53.:56:54.

Teachers are quite happy to engage in CPD, but the career spechfic ..

:56:55.:56:57.

Continuing professional development...

:56:58.:57:00.

teachers are very happy to dngage in that, but a lot

:57:01.:57:08.

of the career specific profdssional development has now disappe`red

:57:09.:57:10.

What he is also saying is they have clearly had enough,

:57:11.:57:13.

they have got to meet all of these targets, they are stressed,

:57:14.:57:16.

they are overworked, they fdel there is underpaid, they are worrhed

:57:17.:57:19.

But how can a teacher in part the knowledge

:57:20.:57:23.

I think if you are teaching A`levels,

:57:24.:57:26.

A`levels are very important exams, they are going to ship the rest

:57:27.:57:30.

of the student's life, and they only get one chance at an educathon.

:57:31.:57:33.

I would suspect that students should be able to expect that the teacher

:57:34.:57:36.

taking them through the course of an A`level course should be able

:57:37.:57:39.

How prepared are you to take this further?

:57:40.:57:43.

How far do you want to take this idea?

:57:44.:57:45.

At the end of the day, we need to have...

:57:46.:57:49.

Have you spoken to Michael Gove about it?

:57:50.:57:51.

I am very keen to change A`levels so we can actually have a true merit

:57:52.:58:09.

` meritocracy and get peopld going to the right universities, `nd I

:58:10.:58:11.

think the way we are going to do that, I am sorry about the

:58:12.:58:15.

disruption to teachers, but I think the prize is worth it to

:58:16.:58:18.

have a genuine meritocracy, because I think the current system

:58:19.:58:20.

really does discriminate ag`inst people who go to state schools.

:58:21.:58:23.

I think they're grades are tnder predicted, and I think that

:58:24.:58:25.

if they do achieve better than that, they are not going to go to

:58:26.:58:29.

Would it make a difference, taking exams early?

:58:30.:58:32.

I think that Michael Gove otght to be taking a few A`levels.

:58:33.:58:36.

Question him, where is the North of England.

:58:37.:58:39.

Let's just ask you a couple of questions before you leave me.

:58:40.:58:43.

Consider, John, the extent to which the which the influence

:58:44.:58:47.

of individual grassroots melbers within the Labour Party has

:58:48.:58:49.

And the answer to that is that it hasn't diminished.

:58:50.:58:58.

Not ever since I successfully proposed giving members the vote.

:58:59.:59:00.

And now the vote to elect individual party leaders.

:59:01.:59:06.

I would say, get involved in the Labour Party, go and have a say

:59:07.:59:09.

Andrew, what extent does the contemporary Conservative Party

:59:10.:59:13.

promote traditional conserv`tive values, 30 marks for this.

:59:14.:59:15.

Probably for me and some of my colleagues not quite dnough.

:59:16.:59:19.

I think the confusion is th`t we actually do not have a Consdrvative

:59:20.:59:22.

government we have a coalithon government and people shouldn't

:59:23.:59:27.

The one thing I was going to say if I may do is that teachers are

:59:28.:59:33.

highly qualified and well skilled professionals and if you have got

:59:34.:59:36.

an amateur in charge, look `t what happens with Michael Gove in charge.

:59:37.:59:56.

Is tanker 60 seconds. Busindsses any East Midlands are being urgdd to bid

:59:57.:00:02.

for their share of ?200 million for regeneration. The next round of the

:00:03.:00:05.

regional growth ground is open for applications. Previous rounds have

:00:06.:00:11.

given the area the least amount of grass in the country. Firefhghters

:00:12.:00:14.

say they can't rule out indtstrial action over plans to cut a puarter

:00:15.:00:18.

of the workforce. Managers say the service need to sate ?7.5 mhllion.

:00:19.:00:23.

Unions say it would put the lives of viral fighters and the publhc at

:00:24.:00:27.

risk. Passions run high 18 leeting of borough councillors this week.

:00:28.:00:30.

Our reporter with interviewhng the council leader when Labour `nd

:00:31.:00:36.

Conservative councillors behind him almost came to blows. Tempers

:00:37.:00:59.

quickly calmed and no one w`s hurt. Well, it didn't come to blows, but

:01:00.:01:03.

emotions were clearly running rather high, weren't they? Put thel in the

:01:04.:01:10.

stock in the Market Square. That is certainly one solution. That is the

:01:11.:01:12.

Sunday Politics in the been problems elsewhere in Europe,

:01:13.:01:16.

but I take your point. Thanks to both of you today. Back to you,

:01:17.:01:17.

Andrew. Now, there have been some

:01:18.:01:23.

less-than-helpful remarks about the way the Labour party makes

:01:24.:01:24.

policy, and they've come from the man who is heading Labour's

:01:25.:01:27.

Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. In a speech to party activists he

:01:28.:01:32.

was recorded saying that, "instrumentalised, cynical nuggets

:01:33.:01:36.

of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies and

:01:37.:01:38.

our desire for a topline in terms of the 24 hour media cycle,

:01:39.:01:42.

dominate and crowd out any He added that Labour's election

:01:43.:01:44.

strategy was being hampered by a The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls

:01:45.:01:55.

was asked about what Mr Cruddas had I talked to him a couple of days

:01:56.:02:16.

ago, and he's not frustrated, he is excited about his policy agenda He

:02:17.:02:21.

is frustrated that one report of 250 pages gets reduced down. So it's our

:02:22.:02:27.

fault? That is the way we live in the world in which we live, but we

:02:28.:02:32.

have big ideas about devolution long term infrastructure spending

:02:33.:02:36.

and new manufacturing policy, new investment in skills, big changes

:02:37.:02:39.

which, let's be honest, I'm really on George Osborne's agenda. How

:02:40.:02:48.

serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so let's call it an unforced error You

:02:49.:02:52.

go to the party speeches, and you don't know who is in the audience.

:02:53.:02:56.

There is no need for something as serious as this to happen. It's

:02:57.:02:59.

hugely serious because it speaks about something people have felt for

:03:00.:03:03.

a long time, that they have doled out little nuggets of policy but no

:03:04.:03:07.

overarching story. There was a quite saying the Ed Miliband has given as

:03:08.:03:11.

a shopping list, not a narrative. When people in the party say things

:03:12.:03:15.

that are true, it's very difficult for people to explain it away. Not

:03:16.:03:19.

sure Mr Miliband can win here. He was recently criticised for not

:03:20.:03:22.

having policies. Now he's being criticised for having too many. I

:03:23.:03:27.

think this line of attack is particularly wounding because he

:03:28.:03:30.

prides himself on being a politician of ideas. That is his unique selling

:03:31.:03:36.

point, and the weight that David Cameron's prime ministerial nature

:03:37.:03:40.

is his selling point. So it is wounding. If I was the Labour Party,

:03:41.:03:44.

before announcing any policy, I would ask can help fix us on the

:03:45.:03:50.

economy? It might be radicalised immolating on its own terms, but

:03:51.:03:55.

it's politically useless. -- radical and innovative on its own terms I

:03:56.:03:59.

don't think any member of the public does not think they are not radical

:04:00.:04:03.

enough or creative enough. If anything, it's the opposite. They

:04:04.:04:06.

are a bit nervous about what a Labour government could do and

:04:07.:04:10.

nervous about the economic reputation. Reassurance, caution,

:04:11.:04:14.

maybe a bit of timidity might be the notions that inform their policies

:04:15.:04:18.

or should inform their policies in night -- my view, not the opposite.

:04:19.:04:24.

I am worried for Jon Cruddas, because anyone who questions the

:04:25.:04:27.

Labour Party are part of the nexus of the banking industry who are

:04:28.:04:31.

terrified of a Labour victory. It's interesting that this goes to the

:04:32.:04:34.

heart of the debate in the Labour Party, at the highest levels, do

:04:35.:04:38.

they put a big offer to the British people, or a little off, John

:04:39.:04:42.

Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander offer? Ed Miliband says that his

:04:43.:04:49.

ideas about freezing energy prices and rent controls are a big offer,

:04:50.:04:52.

but his policy chief clearly has real concerns that they don't go far

:04:53.:04:57.

enough. How important a figure is John Cruddas in the project? He is

:04:58.:05:01.

hell of the -- head of the policy review and has a huge amount of

:05:02.:05:06.

power, and so him slagging off the policy review is a bad moment. He is

:05:07.:05:11.

trusted in that inner circle and the problem for Ed Miliband from the odd

:05:12.:05:15.

is that he has people with strong opinions, Maurice clasping is

:05:16.:05:19.

another, big thinkers, but they maybe don't have a precaution that a

:05:20.:05:24.

professional politician might have in terms of giving bland answers.

:05:25.:05:29.

So, David Cameron had to apologise after his former director

:05:30.:05:31.

of communications was convicted of phone hacking.

:05:32.:05:33.

David Cameron's other former friend, Rebekah Brooks, had a better day.

:05:34.:05:37.

At the same trial, she was cleared of all the charges against her.

:05:38.:05:42.

I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did some

:05:43.:05:49.

on the basis of undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and

:05:50.:05:52.

those turned out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned

:05:53.:05:56.

out to be wrong, I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that

:05:57.:06:01.

today. I am extremely sorry that I employed him. It was the wrong

:06:02.:06:06.

decision. I'm clear about that. When I was arrested it was in the middle

:06:07.:06:10.

of a maelstrom of controversy, politics and of comment. Some of

:06:11.:06:14.

that was there, but much of it was not, so I'm grateful to the jury for

:06:15.:06:24.

coming to that decision. Not been a great week for David Cameron. Andy

:06:25.:06:28.

Coulson found guilty, and another person who had worked in Downing

:06:29.:06:31.

Street is also charged on an unrelated issue. And he was 26- on

:06:32.:06:37.

the wrong end in Brussels, and there is a poll this morning which no one

:06:38.:06:40.

seems to be talking about which puts Labour nine points ahead. Before all

:06:41.:06:44.

that there was Dominic Cummings criticising the Downing Street

:06:45.:06:49.

operation is being shambolic. Is Mr Cameron's judgement becoming an

:06:50.:06:53.

issue? Yes, what often happens when one leader is under pressure for

:06:54.:06:56.

long enough, as Ed Miliband has been the six months, we get bored. We

:06:57.:07:01.

then switch the Gatling gun to the other guy. So David Cameron going

:07:02.:07:04.

into the Conference season might be the man under pressure. The whole

:07:05.:07:07.

Andy Coulson saga has raised questions about his judgement and

:07:08.:07:10.

those around him, but any political damage she was going to sustain over

:07:11.:07:14.

Andy Coulson and phone hacking was sustained years ago -- he was

:07:15.:07:17.

going. It was Brother beyond the date the News of the World was

:07:18.:07:21.

closed down three summers ago - it was probably on the date. As the

:07:22.:07:25.

hacking trial cut through to the general public? Or is it just as

:07:26.:07:32.

media and political obsessives? I am sure it has cut through in some way

:07:33.:07:35.

but it didn't necessarily happen in recent days, more likely in recent

:07:36.:07:40.

years. It was some time ago that Andy Coulson resigned in high

:07:41.:07:44.

profile circumstances. It has had a slow burning effect over a few

:07:45.:07:48.

years, and the Prime Minister fears the Big Bang. But there is one theme

:07:49.:07:53.

and words that unites this week with Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that

:07:54.:07:57.

is that the Prime Minister can be lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical

:07:58.:08:00.

in not asking big question is when there was a lot in the public domain

:08:01.:08:04.

about what had happened that the News of the World. And he was

:08:05.:08:08.

lackadaisical with Juncker. He made a calculation that Angela Merkel

:08:09.:08:10.

would support him and it turned out she couldn't. Maybe he needs to

:08:11.:08:14.

change. He was late in understanding what was happening in Germany when

:08:15.:08:18.

both the Christian Democrats, her party, wanted Juncker, and when the

:08:19.:08:25.

actual Murdoch press of Germany said that they wanted him as well. He

:08:26.:08:30.

never saw that. He only looks at one person in Germany, Angela Merkel,

:08:31.:08:34.

and it is a grand coalition, and the SDP felt strongly about it. He is,

:08:35.:08:39.

in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He is, in a sense, an

:08:40.:08:42.

essay crisis Prime Minister. He s very good in an essay, and the SA

:08:43.:08:47.

gets a double first the essay. Is Ed Miliband right to be angry? He has

:08:48.:08:53.

John Cruddas attacking him, and that is the news leading in the Sunday

:08:54.:08:57.

Times, and has not been a good week the Prime Minister and in which Mr

:08:58.:09:00.

Miliband has a bigger lead in the polls than he has had some time so

:09:01.:09:04.

he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He made a

:09:05.:09:08.

tactical error in Prime Minister's Questions by asking all the

:09:09.:09:10.

questions about Andy Coulson. The one at the end about what Gus

:09:11.:09:15.

O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in the extreme. Politicians can be out

:09:16.:09:20.

of touch on all sides of the house. The problem is, and there is a great

:09:21.:09:23.

quote by William Hague, is that the Tory party has two modes, panic and

:09:24.:09:28.

complacency. At the moment they are complacent. They think Ed Miliband

:09:29.:09:31.

will lose Labour election but I don't know if they have a positive

:09:32.:09:34.

plan about how to win it. -- lose Labour the election.

:09:35.:09:37.

Now, we knew Prince Charles had trouble keeping his views

:09:38.:09:39.

about the environment and the countryside to himself,

:09:40.:09:41.

but that's not the only thing he's passionate about according to

:09:42.:09:44.

a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.

:09:45.:09:46.

Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince

:09:47.:09:51.

had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.

:09:52.:09:54.

I would explain that our policy was not to expand grammar schools, and

:09:55.:10:00.

he didn't like that. He was very keen that we should go back to a

:10:01.:10:07.

different era where youngsters had what he would've seen as the

:10:08.:10:10.

opportunity to escape from their background, where as I wanted to

:10:11.:10:12.

change their background. And you can hear that documentary -

:10:13.:10:14.

it's called The Royal Activist Does it matter that Prince Charles

:10:15.:10:24.

is getting involved in this kind of policy, released behind closed doors

:10:25.:10:27.

question mark on the issue of grammar schools is not clear anybody

:10:28.:10:33.

listened to him. I think it is a principal problem. I've spoken to

:10:34.:10:36.

form a government members, and judging by what they say, if

:10:37.:10:39.

anything we underestimate how much contacting makes with ministers And

:10:40.:10:43.

how many representations he makes on the issue that interest him. There

:10:44.:10:48.

has been an attempt to keep it hidden. It's almost a theological

:10:49.:10:52.

question about whether the future monarch should be involved in the

:10:53.:10:56.

public realm. If he wants to influence policy, shouldn't we know

:10:57.:11:00.

what policy he's trying to influence and what position he is taking?

:11:01.:11:05.

Sewer speech is better than private one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so

:11:06.:11:11.

a speech. Prince Charles's views are interesting. He's not a straight

:11:12.:11:14.

down the light reactionary. He makes a left-wing case for rammer schools.

:11:15.:11:19.

There is an interview with him in the Financial Times in which his

:11:20.:11:23.

argument in favour for architectural development takes into account

:11:24.:11:27.

affordable housing in the wake which no one would have suspected. He has

:11:28.:11:30.

interesting views, but I'm not convinced on the point of principle

:11:31.:11:34.

whether someone is dashing his position should be speaking. Your

:11:35.:11:38.

former employer 's famously described him as the SDP king. You

:11:39.:11:46.

slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 and still an apprentice. He's in a

:11:47.:11:52.

difficult position. We know what the powers of the monarch are. They are

:11:53.:11:56.

to advise in courage and warned the Prime Minister of the day. These in

:11:57.:12:00.

the difficult position where the problem for him is that there is a

:12:01.:12:03.

line that isn't really defined, but you slightly feel he just gets a bit

:12:04.:12:07.

too close to it and possibly crosses that line with the lobbying that

:12:08.:12:12.

goes on. I think the worrying thing is that at some point he will become

:12:13.:12:17.

King and will he know that he has got to work within that framework?

:12:18.:12:22.

He is somebody that cannot win either. If he doesn't take an

:12:23.:12:25.

interest in public policy, he will be thought to be a bit of a waster,

:12:26.:12:29.

going round opening town halls, and when he does have an interest we

:12:30.:12:33.

think, hey, you are in the monarchy, stay out. There's an interesting

:12:34.:12:37.

parallel with first ladies who are encouraged to find a controversial

:12:38.:12:43.

charitable project. Michelle Obama has bought childhood obesity, and

:12:44.:12:47.

that is the standard thing. Everybody knows that that is a bad

:12:48.:12:51.

thing, but you are not offering solutions that are party political.

:12:52.:12:55.

I feel there must be a middle way with what he should be able to do

:12:56.:12:58.

about finding big causes he can complain about without getting stuck

:12:59.:13:02.

into lobbying ministers. Which can become a party political issue. He

:13:03.:13:06.

has had some influence on architecture, because the buildings

:13:07.:13:08.

we are putting up to date are better than the ones we used to put up

:13:09.:13:11.

The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 at 11:00am

:13:12.:13:15.

We'll be back here at the same time next week.

:13:16.:13:20.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:21.:13:24.

With Marie Ashby. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat. Also should there be a complete ban on smoking?


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