06/07/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


06/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Nick Clegg, Alistair Darling, Frances O'Grady and Matthew Hancock.


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Transcript


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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:35.:00:41.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .

:00:42.:00:43.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:44.:00:46.

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

:00:47.:00:51.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:52.:00:55.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:56.:00:58.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:00:59.:01:01.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:02.:01:07.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:08.:01:11.

joins me from Edinburgh. In the East Midlands:

:01:12.:01:15.

The plans to give more power to Nottingham, Derby and Leicester

:01:16.:01:31.

And with me throughout the show three top-flight political

:01:32.:01:34.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:35.:01:37.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:38.:01:52.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:53.:01:54.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:55.:01:57.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:58.:02:00.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:01.:02:02.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:03.:02:04.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:05.:02:10.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

:02:11.:02:15.

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:16.:02:20.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:21.:02:26.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:27.:02:30.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:31.:02:34.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:35.:02:37.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

:02:38.:02:42.

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:43.:02:46.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

:02:47.:02:50.

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:51.:02:55.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:56.:02:59.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:00.:03:03.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:04.:03:07.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:08.:03:12.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:13.:03:16.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:17.:03:20.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:21.:03:23.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:24.:03:28.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

:03:29.:03:34.

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:35.:03:37.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:38.:03:40.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:41.:03:45.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:46.:03:50.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:51.:03:54.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

:03:55.:03:57.

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:58.:04:03.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:04.

United States making the allegations lives in the

:04:05.:04:07.

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

:04:08.:04:09.

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:10.

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:11.:04:17.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:18.:04:21.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

:04:22.:04:21.

inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the

:04:22.:04:35.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

:04:36.:04:41.

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

:04:42.:04:43.

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:44.:04:51.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

:04:52.:04:55.

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

:04:56.:04:55.

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:56.:05:02.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:03.:05:03.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

:05:04.:05:06.

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

:05:07.:05:12.

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I

:05:13.:05:16.

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

:05:17.:05:20.

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

:05:21.:05:24.

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

:05:25.:05:27.

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

:05:28.:05:31.

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

:05:32.:05:36.

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

:05:37.:05:42.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

:05:43.:05:44.

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

:05:45.:05:46.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

:05:47.:05:48.

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

:05:49.:05:51.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

:05:52.:05:53.

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

:05:54.:05:59.

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

:06:00.:06:02.

So why is there still talk of austerity

:06:03.:06:05.

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

:06:06.:06:10.

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

:06:11.:06:17.

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

:06:18.:06:26.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

:06:27.:06:29.

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

:06:30.:06:32.

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

:06:33.:06:38.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

:06:39.:06:42.

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

:06:43.:06:50.

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

:06:51.:06:53.

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

:06:54.:07:01.

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

:07:02.:07:04.

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

:07:05.:07:23.

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

:07:24.:07:29.

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

:07:30.:07:34.

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

:07:35.:07:38.

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

:07:39.:07:43.

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

:07:44.:07:47.

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

:07:48.:07:54.

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

:07:55.:07:59.

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

:08:00.:08:04.

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

:08:05.:08:07.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

:08:08.:08:12.

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

:08:13.:08:16.

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

:08:17.:08:20.

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

:08:21.:08:23.

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

:08:24.:08:26.

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

:08:27.:08:29.

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

:08:30.:08:32.

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

:08:33.:08:36.

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

:08:37.:08:41.

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax

:08:42.:08:45.

cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big

:08:46.:08:51.

corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local

:08:52.:08:57.

government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women

:08:58.:09:00.

who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We

:09:01.:09:04.

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

:09:05.:09:08.

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:09.:09:12.

You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,

:09:13.:09:16.

many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases

:09:17.:09:24.

since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food

:09:25.:09:29.

costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people

:09:30.:09:35.

from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average

:09:36.:09:40.

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

:09:41.:09:44.

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

:09:45.:09:49.

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

:09:50.:09:53.

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

:09:54.:09:57.

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

:09:58.:10:01.

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

:10:02.:10:05.

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

:10:06.:10:10.

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010

:10:11.:10:15.

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

:10:16.:10:20.

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

:10:21.:10:25.

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

:10:26.:10:29.

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

:10:30.:10:33.

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

:10:34.:10:37.

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

:10:38.:10:43.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

:10:44.:10:52.

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

:10:53.:10:59.

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

:11:00.:11:02.

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

:11:03.:11:05.

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

:11:06.:11:10.

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

:11:11.:11:18.

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

:11:19.:11:23.

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

:11:24.:11:32.

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

:11:33.:11:36.

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

:11:37.:11:40.

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

:11:41.:11:49.

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

:11:50.:11:55.

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

:11:56.:11:58.

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

:11:59.:12:03.

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

:12:04.:12:09.

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

:12:10.:12:17.

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

:12:18.:12:22.

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

:12:23.:12:24.

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

:12:25.:12:29.

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

:12:30.:12:33.

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

:12:34.:12:37.

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

:12:38.:12:41.

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

:12:42.:12:45.

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

:12:46.:12:50.

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

:12:51.:12:56.

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

:12:57.:13:00.

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .

:13:01.:13:06.

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

:13:07.:13:15.

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

:13:16.:13:19.

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

:13:20.:13:23.

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

:13:24.:13:26.

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

:13:27.:13:29.

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

:13:30.:13:33.

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

:13:34.:13:38.

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

:13:39.:13:46.

about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

:13:47.:13:52.

service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

:13:53.:13:59.

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

:14:00.:14:09.

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

:14:10.:14:16.

final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

:14:17.:14:19.

this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

:14:20.:14:24.

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the

:14:25.:14:29.

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

:14:30.:14:35.

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

:14:36.:14:38.

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

:14:39.:14:43.

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

:14:44.:14:45.

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

:14:46.:14:49.

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

:14:50.:14:52.

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed

:14:53.:14:53.

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

:14:54.:14:57.

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

:14:58.:14:59.

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

:15:00.:15:02.

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

:15:03.:15:24.

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

:15:25.:15:31.

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

:15:32.:15:35.

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

:15:36.:15:40.

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

:15:41.:15:45.

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

:15:46.:15:51.

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

:15:52.:15:57.

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

:15:58.:16:01.

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

:16:02.:16:07.

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

:16:08.:16:12.

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

:16:13.:16:17.

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

:16:18.:16:21.

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

:16:22.:16:28.

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

:16:29.:16:34.

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

:16:35.:16:40.

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

:16:41.:16:45.

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

:16:46.:16:52.

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

:16:53.:16:56.

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

:16:57.:17:01.

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

:17:02.:17:08.

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,

:17:09.:17:13.

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

:17:14.:17:18.

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

:17:19.:17:21.

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

:17:22.:17:28.

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I

:17:29.:17:32.

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

:17:33.:17:36.

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

:17:37.:17:41.

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

:17:42.:17:45.

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

:17:46.:17:51.

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

:17:52.:17:56.

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

:17:57.:18:02.

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

:18:03.:18:07.

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

:18:08.:18:10.

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

:18:11.:18:15.

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

:18:16.:18:20.

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

:18:21.:18:27.

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

:18:28.:18:33.

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

:18:34.:18:37.

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

:18:38.:18:42.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

:18:43.:18:46.

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

:18:47.:18:50.

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

:18:51.:18:57.

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

:18:58.:19:01.

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

:19:02.:19:06.

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

:19:07.:19:11.

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

:19:12.:19:20.

arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is

:19:21.:19:38.

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

:19:39.:19:42.

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

:19:43.:19:49.

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

:19:50.:19:54.

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

:19:55.:19:58.

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

:19:59.:20:02.

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

:20:03.:20:08.

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

:20:09.:20:13.

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

:20:14.:20:20.

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

:20:21.:20:24.

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

:20:25.:20:30.

years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the

:20:31.:20:34.

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

:20:35.:20:40.

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

:20:41.:20:47.

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

:20:48.:20:51.

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

:20:52.:21:01.

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

:21:02.:21:06.

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

:21:07.:21:12.

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

:21:13.:21:17.

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

:21:18.:21:20.

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

:21:21.:21:25.

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

:21:26.:21:32.

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

:21:33.:21:41.

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

:21:42.:21:47.

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

:21:48.:21:52.

where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference

:21:53.:21:57.

between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign

:21:58.:22:02.

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

:22:03.:22:07.

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

:22:08.:22:16.

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

:22:17.:22:21.

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

:22:22.:22:27.

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

:22:28.:22:31.

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

:22:32.:22:36.

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

:22:37.:22:42.

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

:22:43.:22:48.

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

:22:49.:22:52.

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

:22:53.:22:58.

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

:22:59.:23:02.

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

:23:03.:23:06.

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

:23:07.:23:11.

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

:23:12.:23:17.

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

:23:18.:23:22.

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

:23:23.:23:38.

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

:23:39.:23:48.

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

:23:49.:23:53.

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

:23:54.:23:58.

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

:23:59.:24:05.

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

:24:06.:24:13.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

:24:14.:24:18.

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

:24:19.:24:23.

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

:24:24.:24:28.

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

:24:29.:24:33.

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

:24:34.:24:38.

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

:24:39.:24:46.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon

:24:47.:24:53.

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

:24:54.:24:58.

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

:24:59.:25:03.

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

:25:04.:25:08.

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

:25:09.:25:18.

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

:25:19.:25:32.

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

:25:33.:25:36.

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

:25:37.:25:41.

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

:25:42.:25:46.

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

:25:47.:25:51.

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

:25:52.:25:56.

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

:25:57.:26:00.

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

:26:01.:26:06.

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

:26:07.:26:12.

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

:26:13.:26:17.

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

:26:18.:26:22.

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

:26:23.:26:31.

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

:26:32.:26:37.

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

:26:38.:26:42.

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

:26:43.:26:47.

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

:26:48.:26:52.

itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party

:26:53.:26:58.

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

:26:59.:27:07.

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

:27:08.:27:10.

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

:27:11.:27:14.

next election because if we don t people will vote for the Tories

:27:15.:27:20.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

:27:21.:27:26.

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

:27:27.:27:31.

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

:27:32.:27:36.

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

:27:37.:27:41.

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

:27:42.:28:10.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

:28:11.:28:13.

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

:28:14.:28:17.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

:28:18.:28:21.

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

:28:22.:28:26.

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

:28:27.:28:30.

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things We

:28:31.:28:35.

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

:28:36.:28:40.

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

:28:41.:28:44.

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

:28:45.:28:50.

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

:28:51.:28:53.

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

:28:54.:28:57.

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

:28:58.:29:00.

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

:29:01.:29:04.

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

:29:05.:29:09.

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

:29:10.:29:13.

are going to finish with an old classic now.

:29:14.:29:16.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

:29:17.:29:18.

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

:29:19.:29:23.

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

:29:24.:29:25.

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

:29:26.:29:27.

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

:29:28.:29:31.

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

:29:32.:29:41.

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

:29:42.:29:56.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

:29:57.:30:01.

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

:30:02.:30:05.

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

:30:06.:30:09.

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

:30:10.:30:13.

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

:30:14.:30:17.

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

:30:18.:30:23.

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

:30:24.:30:28.

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

:30:29.:30:33.

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

:30:34.:30:37.

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

:30:38.:30:41.

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

:30:42.:30:45.

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

:30:46.:30:50.

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

:30:51.:30:53.

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

:30:54.:31:00.

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that and

:31:01.:31:03.

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

:31:04.:31:07.

thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I

:31:08.:31:13.

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

:31:14.:31:15.

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

:31:16.:31:19.

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

:31:20.:31:24.

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

:31:25.:31:29.

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

:31:30.:31:32.

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

:31:33.:31:37.

what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking

:31:38.:31:41.

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

:31:42.:31:44.

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

:31:45.:31:48.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

:31:49.:31:51.

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

:31:52.:31:54.

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

:31:55.:32:00.

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

:32:01.:32:04.

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

:32:05.:32:08.

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

:32:09.:32:13.

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

:32:14.:32:19.

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

:32:20.:32:22.

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

:32:23.:32:26.

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

:32:27.:32:30.

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

:32:31.:32:34.

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

:32:35.:32:37.

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

:32:38.:32:39.

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

:32:40.:32:42.

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

:32:43.:32:46.

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

:32:47.:32:49.

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

:32:50.:32:56.

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

:32:57.:33:00.

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

:33:01.:33:05.

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

:33:06.:33:13.

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

:33:14.:33:17.

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

:33:18.:33:22.

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

:33:23.:33:26.

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

:33:27.:33:29.

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

:33:30.:33:32.

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

:33:33.:33:35.

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

:33:36.:33:40.

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

:33:41.:33:47.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

:33:48.:33:53.

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

:33:54.:34:03.

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

:34:04.:34:08.

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

:34:09.:34:12.

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

:34:13.:34:16.

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

:34:17.:34:22.

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

:34:23.:34:26.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It

:34:27.:34:29.

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

:34:30.:34:33.

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

:34:34.:34:37.

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

:34:38.:34:42.

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

:34:43.:34:47.

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

:34:48.:34:53.

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

:34:54.:35:00.

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

:35:01.:35:04.

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

:35:05.:35:11.

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

:35:12.:35:14.

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

:35:15.:35:18.

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

:35:19.:35:22.

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

:35:23.:35:28.

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

:35:29.:35:31.

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

:35:32.:35:33.

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

:35:34.:35:38.

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

:35:39.:35:42.

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

:35:43.:35:46.

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

:35:47.:35:50.

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

:35:51.:35:55.

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

:35:56.:36:00.

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

:36:01.:36:03.

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

:36:04.:36:09.

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

:36:10.:36:15.

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

:36:16.:36:22.

you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:23.:36:27.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:28.:36:30.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:31.:36:35.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:36.:36:39.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:40.:36:42.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:43.:36:46.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:47.:36:50.

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

:36:51.:36:53.

good reason for that. They didn t win the election. The left say that

:36:54.:36:58.

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in day

:36:59.:37:02.

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

:37:03.:37:06.

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

:37:07.:37:14.

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

:37:15.:37:20.

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

:37:21.:37:26.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

:37:27.:37:31.

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

:37:32.:37:34.

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

:37:35.:37:38.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

:37:39.:37:41.

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

:37:42.:37:45.

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change

:37:46.:37:52.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

:37:53.:37:54.

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

:37:55.:38:02.

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

:38:03.:38:08.

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

:38:09.:38:11.

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

:38:12.:38:15.

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

:38:16.:38:18.

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

:38:19.:38:24.

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

:38:25.:38:28.

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

:38:29.:38:33.

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

:38:34.:38:44.

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

:38:45.:38:49.

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

:38:50.:38:54.

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

:38:55.:38:58.

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

:38:59.:39:01.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:02.:39:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:05.:39:08.

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:39:09.:39:10.

the Week In the East Midlands,

:39:11.:39:18.

the courts order a council to hand regeneration money back

:39:19.:39:21.

because it didn't allow European They are penalising the people

:39:22.:39:23.

of Mansfield. Because it is them who have to pay

:39:24.:39:28.

the money back Building up a head of steam,

:39:29.:39:31.

is it time for our big city councils to get back

:39:32.:39:36.

some of those big economic powers? My guests this week, a newcomer to

:39:37.:39:40.

the studio, the region's newest MP, Robert Jenrick, who won New`rk

:39:41.:39:44.

for the Conservatives in thd recent by election, and a veteran guest,

:39:45.:39:47.

and just as welcome, Chris Leslie, Shadow Treasury spokesman

:39:48.:39:52.

and Labour's Nottingham East MP Well, it's been an up and

:39:53.:39:56.

down week for our Labour MPs. Three of them have been chosen to

:39:57.:39:59.

take a leading role So good news for Leicester South's,

:40:00.:40:02.

Jonathan Ashworth, Ashfield's Gloria De Piero, and from Derbyshire,

:40:03.:40:07.

Chesterfield's Toby Perkins. But there was also a demotion for

:40:08.:40:12.

Dennis Skinner, the Bolsover MP who was voted off Labour's ruling group,

:40:13.:40:15.

the National Executive Commhttee. We never like to miss

:40:16.:40:20.

a chance to show the Beast of Bolsover in action, so ldt's see

:40:21.:40:23.

what the NEC will be missing. Why doesn't he have a public inquiry

:40:24.:40:27.

and get this matter settled and make sure that the people of Bolsover are

:40:28.:40:31.

able to leave their complaint at At this government and this

:40:32.:40:36.

little squirt of a minister. Thousands of blind people are having

:40:37.:40:44.

to march through the sheets of London to hang onto

:40:45.:40:52.

their Disability Living Allowance. What a savage indictment of this

:40:53.:40:56.

lousy rotten Tory government. Such passion, and of course

:40:57.:41:03.

his interventions during thd State In a Skinner style,

:41:04.:41:10.

how could you deprive I feel like I should be jabbing

:41:11.:41:27.

my finger at you. Dennis is fantastic

:41:28.:41:35.

and is a legend in his own right. He manages to communicate

:41:36.:41:39.

and articulate what is wrong with the government and the attitude

:41:40.:41:43.

of the Conservatives over ddcades, but ultimately it was an eldction

:41:44.:41:48.

among Labour members of Parliament. I did,

:41:49.:41:51.

but he did not have the numbers At the end

:41:52.:41:56.

of the day it was an election. I am actually a bit sad to lose him,

:41:57.:41:58.

but Dennis would acknowledge it is

:41:59.:42:02.

a democracy and he would st`nd He will continue to be making sure

:42:03.:42:06.

that ministers fear him Robert, I do not suppose yot are

:42:07.:42:12.

a Skinner fan, are you? I have been at the receiving end

:42:13.:42:17.

of Dennis Skinner. I have only been at the House

:42:18.:42:19.

of Commons for three weeks. When I was sworn in,

:42:20.:42:22.

he was the one who shouted out, He is a character

:42:23.:42:25.

and he is great for the the`tre All those three Labour MPs we were

:42:26.:42:33.

hearing about, the deputy organisers for the

:42:34.:42:38.

election, are East Midlands MPs Does that mean what happens here

:42:39.:42:41.

will influence Labour's approach My view is that the East Midlands

:42:42.:42:45.

is really going to be critical. It is the heart of the country

:42:46.:42:50.

and we need to convince as opposition that the people

:42:51.:42:54.

of East Midlands should support It is about keeping our finger

:42:55.:42:57.

on the pulse, listening to what the peopld of the

:42:58.:43:03.

East Midlands have to say, `nd my colleagues involved in the campaign

:43:04.:43:06.

will be well placed to do that. It sounds as if they are pl`nning a

:43:07.:43:10.

strong attack on the East Mhdlands. There are undoubtedly a lot of key

:43:11.:43:13.

seats here in the East Midl`nds We have a number of seats wd want to

:43:14.:43:18.

defend and some we want to take like Nottingham South,

:43:19.:43:22.

a stone's throw from the sttdio The good news is the East Mhdlands

:43:23.:43:24.

is an area that is growing faster than anywhere else in the British

:43:25.:43:28.

economy. My own constituency has had

:43:29.:43:30.

8000 new jobs since 2010. If you want to look anywherd

:43:31.:43:35.

in the country for good news stories coming out of the government,

:43:36.:43:38.

it is the East Midlands. I would perhaps say that evdn

:43:39.:43:41.

though some of the statistics on the economy, at last, ard

:43:42.:43:48.

starting to recover, most pdople, in my constituency in Nottingham,

:43:49.:43:52.

are not feeling the benefit yet There are other issues they are

:43:53.:43:57.

going to be voting on as well and the quality of public sdrvices,

:43:58.:44:00.

what the government are doing to the NHS, is going to come vdry much

:44:01.:44:04.

to the fore. We are in the last year

:44:05.:44:08.

before the general election and Dennis Skinner as much as anybody

:44:09.:44:11.

else will be making sure we hold You only have to look four weeks ago

:44:12.:44:14.

to the Newark by`election to see the Labour vote dropping 5% in a

:44:15.:44:20.

seat that ordinarily any opposition seeking to win a government in a

:44:21.:44:25.

year's time would be hoping to win. We won the first by`election

:44:26.:44:30.

for the Conservatives in 20 years. In the East Midlands people

:44:31.:44:39.

feel it is getting better. Of course it is not as good

:44:40.:44:48.

as we want it to You have just won that by`election

:44:49.:44:50.

and it is time to press on. I was given a pass

:44:51.:44:55.

when I joined the House of Commons which says 05/15 on it so every day

:44:56.:45:03.

I work I know that time is short in politics and we are not going to

:45:04.:45:08.

take anything for granted. It is not hard to imagine what

:45:09.:45:12.

Dennis Skinner would have m`de of the story that has emergdd

:45:13.:45:15.

from Mansfield this week. The District Council there has

:45:16.:45:17.

been told it's got to hand back The cash was part of a grant

:45:18.:45:20.

from Brussels to help to pax for an office development

:45:21.:45:26.

and improvement works at But the government says it broke EU

:45:27.:45:28.

rules by not tendering This week the council lost ` High

:45:29.:45:34.

Court case against the decision The council says it's going to

:45:35.:45:40.

appeal against the decision But one former councillor

:45:41.:45:43.

and local businessman criticised Mansfield not being a wealthy town

:45:44.:45:48.

and having to pay back ?150,000 for something that is not rdally

:45:49.:45:56.

anything wrong plus all the court Looking to what happened in December

:45:57.:45:59.

when the European money was channelled

:46:00.:46:07.

through, they signed it all off I do not know why nobody is

:46:08.:46:12.

getting onto them and finding out. Instead we are having to pax

:46:13.:46:15.

the money so it is a double whammy. I suppose the French governlent

:46:16.:46:18.

would look after their own first. I suppose

:46:19.:46:21.

the German government would. I am bothered about people

:46:22.:46:22.

in this area. We need the money

:46:23.:46:26.

and need to get the facilithes right and I think the council do ` proper

:46:27.:46:29.

job and it is not their fault. It is penalising the people

:46:30.:46:34.

of Mansfield because it is them who have to pay the money back

:46:35.:46:39.

and where is it going to cole from? Well, we're joined by Margot Parker,

:46:40.:46:43.

a UKIP MEP for the East Midlands, and Margot this seems

:46:44.:46:50.

an extraordinary situation, the council having to give back

:46:51.:46:52.

regeneration money. You see the heavy hand of Etropean

:46:53.:46:56.

legislation. It takes over from what would be

:46:57.:47:03.

perhaps a common`sense approach It would be right to be abld to get

:47:04.:47:08.

contracts to local companies but of course they broke the spirit of the

:47:09.:47:18.

agreement which was basically you I don't know if there was

:47:19.:47:21.

a political motivation behind that at the time that was awarded, but

:47:22.:47:28.

there will be many more likd this. The businessman we saw said that

:47:29.:47:32.

the grant was handled by thd old Presumably if they got it wrong

:47:33.:47:40.

with that one as he claims they Maybe, but I do not think this is

:47:41.:47:48.

a European issue. It is typical of UKIP to make

:47:49.:47:55.

this out to be a European issue The reason it is not a European

:47:56.:47:58.

question... Let me explain why, this was

:47:59.:48:01.

a contract which was only offered to a limited number of contractors

:48:02.:48:06.

when it should have been offered to all contractors whether thex were

:48:07.:48:09.

from wherever in the countrx. Small businesses should havd

:48:10.:48:13.

been able to bid for that. That should not have been on a small

:48:14.:48:16.

number of approved contractors. It is about making sure we have

:48:17.:48:24.

competition so the price for the taxpayer is as low `s

:48:25.:48:27.

possible and that was the problem. Do not be blinded by this

:48:28.:48:31.

because it has the word EU. This case against Mansfield District

:48:32.:48:37.

Council was brought by the Department for Communithes and

:48:38.:48:43.

Local Government, your government. It is a European issue whatdver

:48:44.:48:49.

Chris would like to say. We would be fined by the EU

:48:50.:48:52.

unless we take action on thhs. There is a very strong case

:48:53.:48:58.

that this is the kind of arda This is something the Conservative

:48:59.:49:01.

government wants to include in its renegotiation

:49:02.:49:10.

before the referendum... The court heard that Europe has no

:49:11.:49:17.

interest in this, no one has actually made anx

:49:18.:49:19.

complaint, so this is the government No, the government is being forced

:49:20.:49:23.

to take a European regulation If we do not do this

:49:24.:49:30.

it will be fined. What does it look like taking money

:49:31.:49:34.

from councils on behalf of Durope? It is the kind of area that when the

:49:35.:49:37.

Prime Minister goes to Europe after the general election, if he has the

:49:38.:49:44.

mandate to go there, renegotiate and He is not going to

:49:45.:49:47.

renegotiate anything. Mansfield District Council said it

:49:48.:49:55.

did not want to comment bec`use it did not want to jeopardise `ny

:49:56.:49:58.

appeal but issued a statement saying they follow rigorous procedtres and

:49:59.:50:01.

all funding regulations are adhered to and added there was never any

:50:02.:50:04.

attention not to comply with Lots of public bodies procure

:50:05.:50:07.

for contracts. They want to spend money

:50:08.:50:17.

on the local area. You should be allowing comp`nies to

:50:18.:50:19.

compete so it is the best v`lue The fact we have so many politicians

:50:20.:50:23.

pursuing their own agenda, laking out it is the evil hand of the EU,

:50:24.:50:29.

this was a British government suing Will you be raising this

:50:30.:50:35.

in Brussels? What do you feel about

:50:36.:50:48.

the government's role in thhs? We want to see local jobs

:50:49.:50:57.

and local businesses to be `ble to I do not want to see

:50:58.:51:01.

a company coming from Germany I want smaller companies

:51:02.:51:05.

to be able to do that. A company from another part

:51:06.:51:10.

of Nottinghamshire, say, that was excluded because it was

:51:11.:51:12.

an approved number of firms. I believe in open competition but I

:51:13.:51:16.

do not believe Europe should have this overarching effect

:51:17.:51:24.

when it tells people how thdy must This is about competition

:51:25.:51:27.

and the British rule should be The rules are being enforced

:51:28.:51:36.

on the British government bx Europe, The only way we can change this is

:51:37.:51:42.

if the government can renegotiate This council said there was never

:51:43.:51:48.

any intention not to comply with the procurement process but how

:51:49.:51:58.

many more councils could end up in the same situation, paying back

:51:59.:52:02.

money because of the same problem? As long as all local authorhties do

:52:03.:52:07.

the right thing when they h`ve They should be saying to all the

:52:08.:52:12.

companies in the area you c`n bid. It doesn't matter if it is local,

:52:13.:52:18.

national, European. We want all countries to make sure

:52:19.:52:23.

that when it is public monex being spent that everybody can have

:52:24.:52:27.

a chance to get the best value Let's not get sidetracked

:52:28.:52:30.

because you have an obsession She should see what is

:52:31.:52:36.

at the reality of the case. I do not need you to remind me

:52:37.:52:46.

of the difficulties. I represented a trade assochation

:52:47.:52:49.

and because of that I saw wd had no influence in Europe and I knew that

:52:50.:52:54.

small businesses had no voice Mansfield District Council light be

:52:55.:52:58.

glad of a few extra powers, but details emerged this wedk

:52:59.:53:08.

of plans to give even more dconomic Nottingham, Derby and Leicester

:53:09.:53:11.

could soon get greater freedom to run their own affairs, whoever wins

:53:12.:53:15.

the next general election. This is a replica of a sewer

:53:16.:53:22.

that was built by a Leicestdr Those eminent town hall Victorians

:53:23.:53:26.

were also building reservoirs providing gas

:53:27.:53:32.

and electricity supplies. Some places even set up

:53:33.:53:34.

their own banks. They had the power

:53:35.:53:36.

and the clout to get Leicester's current boss is envious

:53:37.:53:39.

of the power his city's Victorian The pumping station is

:53:40.:53:46.

a permanent reminder of that. They had the full range

:53:47.:53:53.

of powers open to them. Today central government constantly

:53:54.:53:57.

feels the need to interfere. But are these images prompthng

:53:58.:54:01.

today's politicians to give Giving power to local peopld

:54:02.:54:05.

to make local decisions. City regions offering England's

:54:06.:54:13.

cities new economic powers that will Mayors and council leaders

:54:14.:54:19.

and cities need the power to be able to ensure that their cities have

:54:20.:54:25.

the infrastructure in place, the services, the roads, the sewers the

:54:26.:54:30.

things that enable people to know that cities are

:54:31.:54:35.

the places to come and to invest. There's a touch of flower power

:54:36.:54:39.

outside the offices of the council. This Leicester suburban borough does

:54:40.:54:43.

not welcome the prospect of being Its leader, a Liberal Democrat,

:54:44.:54:47.

is a city regions sceptic. It sounds like a good thing unless

:54:48.:54:55.

you are in a borough or a dhstrict What would happen if somebody was in

:54:56.:54:59.

charge without a democratic mandate? They would impose it where they

:55:00.:55:08.

thought it was appropriate. So it would be the city acthng

:55:09.:55:11.

as a Big Brother? Is this one of those big political

:55:12.:55:14.

ideas that is going to boom and bust in but simply fade away

:55:15.:55:21.

after the next general election Charting the rise and fall of

:55:22.:55:26.

political ideas is Alistair Jones. Enhanced powers for big cithes,

:55:27.:55:32.

why is it back on the agend`? Labour started up in the 1970s but

:55:33.:55:37.

Thatcher took it much furthdr much faster and in many respects took

:55:38.:55:42.

away a lot of the powers of local authorities leaving them with very

:55:43.:55:45.

little other than monitoring service provision rather than being

:55:46.:55:49.

a true service provider. This woman hopes to be elected

:55:50.:55:53.

the first Conservative MP I think the City Deal could

:55:54.:55:56.

develop those projects. She welcomes the coalition's

:55:57.:56:03.

City Deal initiative. That is giving cities

:56:04.:56:06.

like Nottingham targeted funding It is different from Labour's city

:56:07.:56:08.

regions policy which she fe`rs would The City Deal in Nottingham has

:56:09.:56:15.

?25 million and Nottingham was allowed to spend some of th`t money

:56:16.:56:22.

upfront unlike many other chties. Could City Deal really deliver

:56:23.:56:27.

the power it has promised whthout giving our cities back

:56:28.:56:30.

their political muscle? We need to have a wide rangd

:56:31.:56:33.

of financial measures where we can raise the money that is needed

:56:34.:56:38.

at a local level and be accountable Is local taxation the price

:56:39.:56:41.

of big`city power? That particular flower may

:56:42.:56:48.

take some time to bed down. What we have to do is get ott

:56:49.:56:53.

of the habit of seeing Whitdhall and Westminster holding onto all

:56:54.:57:01.

of these powers. We have seen more centralis`tion in

:57:02.:57:04.

recent years when local authorities Road schemes, skills investlent that

:57:05.:57:12.

needs to take place, help whth regeneration, those are the sorts

:57:13.:57:20.

of decisions we have to try... What does it mean in cities like

:57:21.:57:22.

Nottingham, Leicester and Ddrby We used to have

:57:23.:57:28.

a regional development agency We are left with these conftsed

:57:29.:57:31.

bodies, the Local Enterprisd Partnerships, a lot of acronyms

:57:32.:57:36.

and they do not have any resources, they do not have as strong

:57:37.:57:41.

coordination as they should do. If Whitehall trusted those

:57:42.:57:45.

local leaders people would It has to be about trusting

:57:46.:57:48.

local decision`making. Why should there be all those powers

:57:49.:57:55.

for the London leadership btt for It is very important in this

:57:56.:58:03.

government that we move wealth and jobs, opportunities, outside

:58:04.:58:13.

of London and the south`east. Are you going to give more

:58:14.:58:15.

powers to the cities? You have seen that

:58:16.:58:18.

from this government, major projects like HS2, now the

:58:19.:58:19.

Chancellor is talking about HS3 There was a conference in Lhverpool

:58:20.:58:22.

were Nottingham was represented and they were looking at wh`t great

:58:23.:58:30.

cities can do to get more Three out of four jobs created

:58:31.:58:33.

since 2010 have been in the regions outside of London

:58:34.:58:41.

and the south`east. Giving more power to cities in the

:58:42.:58:44.

East Midlands would mean giving more I do not think it is

:58:45.:58:49.

about party politics. The key thing is how can yot

:58:50.:58:55.

make great cities good placds to That is what the government is all

:58:56.:58:59.

about, we are trying to boost the The economy is the fastest`growing

:59:00.:59:04.

part of the British economy. The Labour plans are

:59:05.:59:11.

rehashing old plans. What I would be concerned

:59:12.:59:16.

about is giving Labour politicians the powers to raise more taxes

:59:17.:59:21.

which puts at risk everything that has been worked on by the British

:59:22.:59:25.

public, by the government, Do not hand back the keys to

:59:26.:59:28.

the people who wrecked the British We are getting

:59:29.:59:32.

the election slogans out early. Are councils up to

:59:33.:59:40.

handling more power? We have to trust local people to

:59:41.:59:44.

pick the leaders to do They used to talk about loc`lism and

:59:45.:59:46.

offered all sorts on that btt we have still got local areas having to

:59:47.:59:52.

go with a begging bowl to Whitehall. It should not be for the Ch`ncellor

:59:53.:59:59.

We should have more local leadership.

:00:00.:00:05.

Some places have chosen to had them and some have not.

:00:06.:00:16.

In Nottingham, how the council has run its tram

:00:17.:00:19.

We do not want to impose maxors on different parts

:00:20.:00:28.

of the country which is why we have been committed to doing refdrendums

:00:29.:00:31.

and in Nottingham there seels to be difference of opinion.

:00:32.:00:34.

People just outside of the city are not that kedn to be

:00:35.:00:38.

You are centralising crime and health.

:00:39.:00:47.

Time for a round`up of the other political storhes.

:00:48.:00:58.

Tempers are still running hhgh at the Erewash borough council.

:00:59.:01:01.

Last week tempers broke out after a council meeting.

:01:02.:01:07.

The Labour opposition now s`ys the council is simply out

:01:08.:01:09.

The ruling Tories have dismhssed the claims as ridiculous

:01:10.:01:14.

and accused Labour of running a dirty tricks c`mpaign.

:01:15.:01:18.

Derbyshire's Conservative MPs have stepped up their lobby of the

:01:19.:01:21.

government to get the new skills academy for HS2 built in Derby.

:01:22.:01:26.

The city is on a shortlist for the academy

:01:27.:01:28.

The MPs have written to the Minister for Schools and Enterprise

:01:29.:01:33.

emphasising Derby's long heritage in train making.

:01:34.:01:38.

Library users have until tomorrow to have their voice

:01:39.:01:40.

The County Council has been consulted

:01:41.:01:44.

on plans to hand over 36 libraries over to local communities to run.

:01:45.:01:50.

The council has warned that some libraries may close.

:01:51.:01:53.

The change could save an estimated ?100,000 a year.

:01:54.:02:02.

That's the Sunday Politics here in the East Midlands.

:02:03.:02:04.

Thanks to Chris Leslie and Robert Jenrick

:02:05.:02:07.

progress in London was being made before that started. I wish we had

:02:08.:02:17.

longer for that. It is all over to you.

:02:18.:02:20.

What will Thursday's mass public sector strike achieve?

:02:21.:02:22.

Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker attacks clawed back support

:02:23.:02:25.

And is Alan Johnson really thinking about challenging Ed Miliband

:02:26.:02:29.

We will start with the strikes, Matt Hancock was hardline in the

:02:30.:02:49.

head-to-head that he did with the TUC. I guess that the Tory internal

:02:50.:02:54.

polling and focus groups must be telling them that there are votes in

:02:55.:02:58.

taking a tough line? There is that and there is the fact that they are

:02:59.:03:07.

now much more confident on any economic policy two or three years

:03:08.:03:12.

ago. They shied away from it because the economy was shrinking, there was

:03:13.:03:16.

still a danger that public sector job losses would lead to higher

:03:17.:03:20.

unemployment overall. Now, the economy is growing, they have a good

:03:21.:03:25.

story to sell about employment so they are much more bolshy and brazen

:03:26.:03:30.

than they were two or three years ago. They know that it always causes

:03:31.:03:35.

problems for Labour. Labour is naturally sympathetic to the public

:03:36.:03:40.

sector workers, pay being squeezed, they are striking to make an issue

:03:41.:03:45.

of it. And yet they can't quite come out and give the unions 100% Labour

:03:46.:03:50.

support? Exactly. You saw Tristram Hunt on the Marr Show this morning

:03:51.:03:54.

squirming to support the idea of strikes, but not this particular

:03:55.:03:57.

strike. It was always the question that gets asked to Labour - who

:03:58.:04:01.

funds you? That is a real problem. The bit that gets me is they trail

:04:02.:04:05.

this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this

:04:06.:04:10.

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

:04:11.:04:14.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

:04:15.:04:18.

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

:04:19.:04:27.

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

:04:28.:04:30.

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

:04:31.:04:34.

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

:04:35.:04:39.

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

:04:40.:04:43.

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

:04:44.:04:49.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At

:04:50.:04:54.

that time, the TUC and the Labour Leadership thought there was going

:04:55.:04:58.

to be a great movement out there, not a kind of 1926 movement, but a

:04:59.:05:03.

great movement out there. This time round, I think the climate is

:05:04.:05:10.

different. Ed Miliband talking about wage increases being outstripped by

:05:11.:05:14.

inflation and people not seeing the recovery coming through into their

:05:15.:05:17.

pay packets. Slightly more tricky territory for the Tories. If The

:05:18.:05:25.

Labour machine cannot make something out of Matt Hancock telling this

:05:26.:05:31.

programme there will be no increase in pay for workers in the public

:05:32.:05:36.

sector till 2018, they have a problem? They do have a problem

:05:37.:05:39.

They have to say always that they would not just turn the money taps

:05:40.:05:43.

on. That is the dance that you are locked in all the time. Can we all

:05:44.:05:47.

agree that Alan Johnson is not going to stand against Ed Miliband this

:05:48.:05:55.

side of the election? Some politicians are cynical enough. I

:05:56.:05:59.

don't think Alan Johnson is one Do we agree? There is nothing in it for

:06:00.:06:04.

Labour and certainly not for Alan Johnson. No way. It is the last

:06:05.:06:09.

thing he would want to do. There are some desperate members going around

:06:10.:06:14.

trying to find a stalking horse Alan Johnson will not be their man.

:06:15.:06:17.

He has more important things to do on a Thursday night on BBC One!

:06:18.:06:23.

Isn't it something about the febrile state of the Labour Party that

:06:24.:06:27.

Labour, some Labour backbenchers or in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the

:06:28.:06:32.

idea of this nonsense? If there was a time to do it, maybe it was in the

:06:33.:06:36.

middle of the Parliament. With ten months left, you are stuck with the

:06:37.:06:40.

leader you chose in 2010. I remember them failing to understand this in

:06:41.:06:47.

January of 2010 when there was that last push against Gordon Brown. Five

:06:48.:06:51.

months before an election, they were trying to do something. The deputy

:06:52.:07:03.

Leader of the Labour Party had something to do with it. There is

:07:04.:07:07.

deep unease about Ed Miliband. There are problems but Alan Johnson is not

:07:08.:07:17.

the man. I think there is no chance of it!

:07:18.:07:20.

If the most recent polls are to be believed, David Cameron appears to

:07:21.:07:22.

have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - clawing back some support from UKIP

:07:23.:07:26.

after he very publicly opposed the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker

:07:27.:07:29.

to the post of EU Commission president. Last week Nigel Farage

:07:30.:07:32.

took his newly enlarged UKIP contingent to Strasbourg

:07:33.:07:35.

for the first session of the new European Parliament.

:07:36.:07:48.

These two gentlemen have nothing to say today. It was the usual dull,

:07:49.:07:57.

looking back to a model invented 50 years ago and we are the ones that

:07:58.:08:01.

want democracy, we are the ones that want nation state, we are the ones

:08:02.:08:05.

that want a global future for our countries, not to be trapped inside

:08:06.:08:13.

this museum. Thank you. I can see we will be covering more of the

:08:14.:08:14.

European Parliament at last! It's rumoured he's likely to stand

:08:15.:08:21.

in the next general election in the Kent constituency of Thanet South,

:08:22.:08:24.

currently held by the Conservatives. Last week the Conservatives selected

:08:25.:08:26.

their candidate for the seat - Craig McKinlay -

:08:27.:08:29.

a former deputy leader of UKIP. Did you get the short straw, you

:08:30.:08:40.

have got a seat that Nigel Farage is probably going to fight? Not in the

:08:41.:08:43.

slightest. It is a seat that I know well. It is a seat that there's

:08:44.:08:49.

obvious euro scepticism there and my qualities are right for that seat.

:08:50.:08:53.

UKIP got some very good... What are your qualities? Deep-seated

:08:54.:08:59.

conservatism, I was a founder of UKIP, I wrote the script back in

:09:00.:09:03.

1992. My heart is Conservative values. They are best put out to the

:09:04.:09:11.

public by me in South Thanet. It would be ridiculous if Nigel chose

:09:12.:09:16.

that seat. We need a building block of people like myself to form a

:09:17.:09:19.

Government if we are going to have that referendum that is long

:09:20.:09:22.

overdue. I don't think he's got the luxury of losing somebody who is

:09:23.:09:27.

very similar in views to him. He would be best look looking

:09:28.:09:31.

elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to stand in your seat, would you? It

:09:32.:09:34.

would seem to make very little sense. People would say what is UKIP

:09:35.:09:39.

all about if it's fighting people who have got a similar view to them?

:09:40.:09:44.

We do need to build a majority Government for the Conservatives

:09:45.:09:47.

next year because only us are offering that clear in-out

:09:48.:09:51.

referendum. I want to be one of those building blocks that is part

:09:52.:09:55.

of that renegotiation that we will put to public in a referendum.

:09:56.:10:00.

Sounds to me like if the choice is between you and Nigel Farage next

:10:01.:10:11.

May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The

:10:12.:10:15.

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

:10:16.:10:19.

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

:10:20.:10:23.

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

:10:24.:10:27.

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

:10:28.:10:37.

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

:10:38.:10:44.

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

:10:45.:10:52.

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

:10:53.:10:58.

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

:10:59.:11:03.

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True

:11:04.:11:07.

Although some of us would say it is possible... You are speaking for the

:11:08.:11:11.

bubble? I'm speaking for my segment of the bubble. Some of us argued

:11:12.:11:15.

that he got it wrong diplomatically and it would be wrong politically.

:11:16.:11:27.

It will be the passage of time. We saw UKIP decline between the 20 4

:11:28.:11:33.

European elections and the 2005 General. You would expect something

:11:34.:11:38.

similar to happen this time round. The question is how far low do they

:11:39.:11:42.

fall? They are still registering 12-15% in the opinion polls. They

:11:43.:11:47.

are. When Mr Cameron wielded his veto which again the Westminster

:11:48.:11:51.

bubble said it's terrible, it is embarrassing, he overtook Labour in

:11:52.:11:55.

the polls for a while doing that. He's had a Juncker bounce. If you

:11:56.:12:00.

were a strategist, would you not conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am,

:12:01.:12:04.

the better it is for me in the polls? In the short-term, yes. This

:12:05.:12:15.

is the short-term thinking we are supposed to despise. The electricion

:12:16.:12:20.

is very clever for a different - the selection is very clever for a

:12:21.:12:23.

different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.

:12:24.:12:28.

He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered

:12:29.:12:31.

accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local

:12:32.:12:36.

people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in

:12:37.:12:39.

real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of

:12:40.:12:43.

the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David

:12:44.:12:46.

Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to

:12:47.:12:51.

MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't

:12:52.:12:55.

take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,

:12:56.:13:01.

quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he

:13:02.:13:06.

said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold

:13:07.:13:13.

Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said

:13:14.:13:17.

darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.

:13:18.:13:20.

Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back

:13:21.:13:23.

at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One

:13:24.:13:27.

next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll

:13:28.:13:32.

be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:33.:13:37.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:38.:13:45.

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate including interviews with the deputy prime Minister, Nick Clegg, former chancellor Alistair Darling, Frances O'Grady of the TUC, and skills minister Matthew Hancock.


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