13/07/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


13/07/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Scotland's deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon discusses Scotland's referendum.


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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay

:00:36.:00:41.

As the campaign heads for the final furlong,

:00:42.:00:44.

what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?

:00:45.:00:48.

The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.

:00:49.:00:52.

David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.

:00:53.:00:55.

Many of those tipped for promotion are women.

:00:56.:00:57.

So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or

:00:58.:01:01.

And don't know whether to support Germany or

:01:02.:01:11.

And in the East Midlands: political guide to the World Cup.

:01:12.:01:17.

An MP calls for an inquiry into allegations of abuse

:01:18.:01:20.

Plus the fight to save dozens of libraries threatened with closure.

:01:21.:01:37.

It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the

:01:38.:01:40.

Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis

:01:41.:01:45.

we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.

:01:46.:01:49.

And for top political analysis you may

:01:50.:01:51.

as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick

:01:52.:01:55.

David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.

:01:56.:02:05.

The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be

:02:06.:02:08.

in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.

:02:09.:02:10.

The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,

:02:11.:02:13.

reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox

:02:14.:02:15.

is in line for a return to the political front line.

:02:16.:02:19.

But there's general agreement that women will do well and some

:02:20.:02:26.

of the old men in suits guard will do badly.

:02:27.:02:29.

Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.

:02:30.:02:39.

It's good to make parliament more representative.

:02:40.:02:45.

But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create

:02:46.:02:48.

injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.

:02:49.:02:52.

And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being

:02:53.:03:00.

accelerated too far too fast and they come to

:03:01.:03:02.

a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.

:03:03.:03:08.

I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is

:03:09.:03:22.

going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not

:03:23.:03:30.

be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It

:03:31.:03:35.

is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a

:03:36.:03:42.

great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we

:03:43.:03:46.

refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.

:03:47.:03:50.

David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the

:03:51.:03:57.

old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and

:03:58.:04:02.

a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.

:04:03.:04:08.

A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to

:04:09.:04:14.

move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being

:04:15.:04:19.

very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority

:04:20.:04:24.

voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not

:04:25.:04:30.

do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot

:04:31.:04:36.

of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list

:04:37.:04:41.

which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all

:04:42.:04:46.

of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a

:04:47.:04:51.

long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging

:04:52.:04:56.

feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has

:04:57.:05:00.

an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by

:05:01.:05:10.

that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions

:05:11.:05:13.

because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking

:05:14.:05:19.

about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that

:05:20.:05:23.

embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach

:05:24.:05:27.

if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless

:05:28.:05:33.

but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would

:05:34.:05:39.

have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be

:05:40.:05:51.

pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised

:05:52.:05:55.

expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be

:05:56.:05:59.

given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are

:06:00.:06:04.

given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks

:06:05.:06:09.

perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female

:06:10.:06:14.

commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has

:06:15.:06:23.

made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a

:06:24.:06:28.

better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We

:06:29.:06:36.

are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time

:06:37.:06:42.

as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be

:06:43.:06:48.

able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like

:06:49.:06:55.

Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be

:06:56.:07:04.

great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think

:07:05.:07:07.

he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going

:07:08.:07:16.

to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go

:07:17.:07:21.

for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would

:07:22.:07:28.

that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile

:07:29.:07:35.

Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart

:07:36.:07:39.

choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.

:07:40.:07:41.

That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street

:07:42.:07:49.

predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women

:07:50.:07:54.

in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part

:07:55.:07:55.

of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions

:07:56.:07:59.

less male and less white. But as the list

:08:00.:08:02.

of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned

:08:03.:08:04.

the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for

:08:05.:08:20.

new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.

:08:21.:08:24.

When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise

:08:25.:08:25.

that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise

:08:26.:08:37.

women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment

:08:38.:08:38.

drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even

:08:39.:08:45.

has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and

:08:46.:08:49.

construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of

:08:50.:08:55.

ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a

:08:56.:09:00.

whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated

:09:01.:09:03.

workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the

:09:04.:09:07.

rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.

:09:08.:09:11.

It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.

:09:12.:09:17.

She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister

:09:18.:09:21.

because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly

:09:22.:09:24.

contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and

:09:25.:09:29.

having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy

:09:30.:09:33.

leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be

:09:34.:09:38.

appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter

:09:39.:09:41.

how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still

:09:42.:09:48.

not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In

:09:49.:09:53.

the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal

:09:54.:09:58.

of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the

:09:59.:10:03.

TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever

:10:04.:10:09.

glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new

:10:10.:10:13.

thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity

:10:14.:10:19.

on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail

:10:20.:10:26.

are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality

:10:27.:10:31.

act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed

:10:32.:10:35.

to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality

:10:36.:10:40.

and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring

:10:41.:10:47.

on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are

:10:48.:10:52.

really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job

:10:53.:10:56.

anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve

:10:57.:11:03.

the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all.

:11:04.:11:13.

On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse

:11:14.:11:17.

construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it

:11:18.:11:18.

comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by

:11:19.:11:30.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent

:11:31.:11:31.

and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible

:11:32.:11:34.

for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches

:11:35.:11:47.

though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do

:11:48.:11:54.

it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite

:11:55.:11:59.

right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot

:12:00.:12:05.

of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire

:12:06.:12:10.

population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he

:12:11.:12:14.

should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants

:12:15.:12:17.

promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they

:12:18.:12:24.

are good performers in the media, whether they represent different

:12:25.:12:29.

parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of

:12:30.:12:33.

merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should

:12:34.:12:38.

be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.

:12:39.:12:42.

The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the

:12:43.:12:45.

face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have

:12:46.:12:51.

always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have

:12:52.:12:58.

appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with

:12:59.:13:03.

that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and

:13:04.:13:05.

every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all

:13:06.:13:12.

minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot

:13:13.:13:18.

solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.

:13:19.:13:24.

It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number

:13:25.:13:28.

of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with

:13:29.:13:34.

childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a

:13:35.:13:36.

target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing

:13:37.:13:43.

target. That is not how you achieve engineering and so on but it

:13:44.:14:09.

target. That is not how you achieve hidden barriers. Dot. Either they

:14:10.:14:12.

are not as good or they do not want it, which is just how we persuade

:14:13.:14:14.

are not as good or they do not want it, which ourselves that it is not

:14:15.:14:19.

happening, or there are barriers. How we judge meritocracy is at the

:14:20.:14:24.

heart of it. Are lots of industries won there are not that many women,

:14:25.:14:31.

such as engineering. We need more engineers generally. I think it is

:14:32.:14:37.

fine to try to encourage more women to study that subject. By setting a

:14:38.:14:45.

target you put pressure on an organisation. You tried to

:14:46.:14:51.

target you put pressure on an the complex reasons why women do not

:14:52.:14:53.

go into those sectors. Minister? I personally wouldn't mind

:14:54.:16:17.

this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with

:16:18.:16:27.

us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born

:16:28.:16:32.

with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue

:16:33.:16:38.

not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female

:16:39.:16:42.

ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very

:16:43.:16:44.

quickly... female one coming down the pipe very

:16:45.:18:24.

list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a

:18:25.:18:29.

visible change in female representation,

:18:30.:22:55.

visible change in female Scotland, why take the risk? All of

:22:56.:22:58.

these things should be the case because they are in the best

:22:59.:23:01.

interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to

:23:02.:23:07.

enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and

:23:08.:23:13.

overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also

:23:14.:23:18.

want powers over our social security system so that we can create a

:23:19.:23:24.

system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the

:23:25.:23:28.

most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about

:23:29.:23:35.

letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my

:23:36.:23:39.

question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound

:23:40.:23:43.

within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot

:23:44.:23:48.

guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue

:23:49.:23:53.

that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of

:23:54.:23:59.

the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we

:24:00.:24:04.

use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister

:24:05.:24:09.

quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right

:24:10.:24:14.

now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,

:24:15.:24:18.

of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The

:24:19.:24:26.

Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the

:24:27.:24:30.

Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are

:24:31.:24:36.

basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?

:24:37.:24:45.

Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best

:24:46.:24:50.

interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of

:24:51.:24:54.

the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland

:24:55.:24:58.

and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very

:24:59.:25:07.

good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not

:25:08.:25:18.

a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel

:25:19.:25:23.

scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of

:25:24.:25:27.

negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most

:25:28.:25:30.

economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to

:25:31.:25:35.

have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander

:25:36.:25:40.

are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing

:25:41.:25:45.

but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the

:25:46.:25:50.

benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to

:25:51.:25:54.

George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would

:25:55.:25:58.

be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

:25:59.:26:03.

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half

:26:04.:26:06.

a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

:26:07.:26:09.

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of

:26:10.:26:14.

half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense

:26:15.:26:18.

and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by

:26:19.:26:24.

the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the

:26:25.:26:32.

common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t

:26:33.:26:36.

been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said

:26:37.:26:45.

that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent

:26:46.:26:49.

Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be

:26:50.:26:54.

impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but

:26:55.:27:03.

been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we

:27:04.:27:10.

are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said

:27:11.:27:15.

repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a

:27:16.:27:19.

formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have

:27:20.:27:23.

said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for

:27:24.:27:30.

it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is

:27:31.:27:36.

in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral

:27:37.:27:41.

part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with

:27:42.:27:47.

the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he

:27:48.:27:53.

still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you

:27:54.:27:58.

could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our

:27:59.:28:09.

proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think

:28:10.:28:15.

is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many

:28:16.:28:21.

nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be

:28:22.:28:26.

outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the

:28:27.:28:30.

current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to

:28:31.:28:35.

stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union

:28:36.:28:39.

are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common

:28:40.:28:44.

sense and people in Scotland will make

:28:45.:28:44.

sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is

:28:45.:28:49.

talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told

:28:50.:28:55.

Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a

:28:56.:29:01.

democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests

:29:02.:29:05.

of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the

:29:06.:29:12.

territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did

:29:13.:29:18.

so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy

:29:19.:29:26.

Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is

:29:27.:29:37.

no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in

:29:38.:29:46.

Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear

:29:47.:29:49.

weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries

:29:50.:29:53.

of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland...

:29:54.:29:59.

I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of

:30:00.:30:10.

NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the

:30:11.:30:17.

basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want

:30:18.:30:23.

Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we

:30:24.:30:26.

are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident

:30:27.:30:32.

and we would argue within the international community that the

:30:33.:30:36.

world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons.

:30:37.:30:40.

That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently

:30:41.:30:45.

for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO

:30:46.:30:51.

deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not

:30:52.:30:55.

accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear.

:30:56.:31:01.

Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a

:31:02.:31:06.

significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not

:31:07.:31:12.

subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are

:31:13.:31:17.

non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO

:31:18.:31:24.

has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An

:31:25.:31:28.

independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of

:31:29.:31:33.

NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by

:31:34.:31:38.

example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise

:31:39.:31:43.

would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that

:31:44.:31:48.

an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a

:31:49.:31:51.

year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says

:31:52.:31:56.

he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and

:31:57.:32:02.

save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the

:32:03.:32:09.

outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this

:32:10.:32:14.

referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as

:32:15.:32:17.

part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can

:32:18.:32:23.

afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to

:32:24.:32:27.

have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of

:32:28.:32:33.

borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and

:32:34.:32:38.

the savings account would not themselves what the wisdom of that

:32:39.:32:44.

is. This is based on recommendations of our expert fiscal Commission that

:32:45.:32:47.

as borrowing reduces to sustainable levels it makes sense to start

:32:48.:32:53.

saving a proportion of our oil wealth. In Norway, which has many

:32:54.:32:59.

similarities to Scotland, they have an oil fund worth ?500 billion.

:33:00.:33:05.

Scotland is part of the Westminster system is sitting on a share of UK

:33:06.:33:09.

debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth to

:33:10.:33:16.

be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource

:33:17.:33:19.

better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are

:33:20.:33:26.

about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your

:33:27.:33:30.

predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues would be the .7

:33:31.:33:37.

billion more than they actually work -- 3.7 billion. The cost of the

:33:38.:33:45.

Scottish school system gone. There were particular reasons for that in

:33:46.:33:49.

terms of interruption to production and bigger levels of investment

:33:50.:33:53.

Used ill have to find the money Let me explain. They are based on robust

:33:54.:33:59.

assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the

:34:00.:34:03.

estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are

:34:04.:34:07.

based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been

:34:08.:34:14.

wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in

:34:15.:34:21.

the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with

:34:22.:34:27.

industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in

:34:28.:34:30.

cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy

:34:31.:34:37.

is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is

:34:38.:34:41.

cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except

:34:42.:34:48.

they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow

:34:49.:34:54.

nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy,

:34:55.:34:59.

you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social

:35:00.:35:03.

democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels

:35:04.:35:07.

of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I

:35:08.:35:13.

want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free

:35:14.:35:20.

medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get

:35:21.:35:25.

more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in

:35:26.:35:29.

the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are

:35:30.:35:32.

raising the overall tax revenue Over the last 33 years we have

:35:33.:35:38.

generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the

:35:39.:35:46.

rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would

:35:47.:35:50.

have been high and in others they would have been law but we take

:35:51.:35:54.

different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the

:35:55.:35:58.

Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the

:35:59.:36:05.

cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the

:36:06.:36:10.

hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources

:36:11.:36:15.

so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the

:36:16.:36:18.

resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic

:36:19.:36:24.

levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of

:36:25.:36:28.

tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what

:36:29.:36:38.

Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but

:36:39.:36:41.

none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For

:36:42.:36:48.

mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying.

:36:49.:36:53.

The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth

:36:54.:36:58.

in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has We

:36:59.:37:03.

are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce.

:37:04.:37:08.

We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending

:37:09.:37:11.

resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland.

:37:12.:37:16.

These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take

:37:17.:37:20.

the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent.

:37:21.:37:31.

libraries under threat of closure ` could volunteers keep them open

:37:32.:37:57.

They are really just going to struggle. It's not just a c`se of

:37:58.:38:01.

standing behind the counter issuing books, there's a lot more involved.

:38:02.:38:04.

I'd love to volunteer, as long as they don't mind le

:38:05.:38:08.

the future holds for our politicians. And, looking b`ck on a

:38:09.:38:10.

My attendance record and my voting partichpation

:38:11.:38:34.

Of I am joined by our guest this week. It has been a major political

:38:35.:38:53.

story this weekend it has bdcome an issue in the East Midlands. The

:38:54.:38:57.

Government has ordered an enquiry into her allegations of widdspread

:38:58.:39:01.

abuse by powerful public figures in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s were

:39:02.:39:05.

handled. Now one of our MPs says that it has been happening here

:39:06.:39:09.

John Mann once enquiry into claims of abuse in Nottinghamshire. I have

:39:10.:39:18.

had six people coming to me, making allegations about a range of

:39:19.:39:21.

offenders, and connected allegations, unconnected suggested

:39:22.:39:29.

perpetrators. What is common amongst them is that all reported to the

:39:30.:39:32.

police, not a single case h`s been prosecuted. Not one out of the sex.

:39:33.:39:38.

Nottinghamshire Police have told us that after John Mann's allegations

:39:39.:39:45.

they have a current investigation involving three victims and are

:39:46.:39:47.

looking again at the cases of three people which have been investigated

:39:48.:39:55.

before. Queries this all gohng to end? I hope that there will be

:39:56.:40:02.

justice for the bit is. That is what we have always got me thinkhng

:40:03.:40:09.

about. These cranes are forl a `` these crimes are horrific. H hope

:40:10.:40:15.

that the victims who feel that these crimes were swept under the carpet

:40:16.:40:20.

will now have the opportunity to have their cases heard and that

:40:21.:40:22.

those who carried out these horrific those who carried out these horrific

:40:23.:40:25.

crimes are brought to justice. This is an issue which will not go away.

:40:26.:40:30.

These allegations are about historical events. These evdnts

:40:31.:40:33.

could be even more damaging to our trust in politicians here and now. I

:40:34.:40:39.

think all parties take thesd issues really seriously. It is not a

:40:40.:40:45.

partisan issue so much as m`king sure that all checks and balances

:40:46.:40:51.

are in place, look up properly and when allegations are maybe H looked

:40:52.:40:57.

at thoroughly. Do you support the Government's moved to hold ` public

:40:58.:41:06.

enquiry? I do. A few weeks `go I said that we need an overarching

:41:07.:41:10.

inquiry and I am pleased thd Government have said that there is

:41:11.:41:13.

going to be an overarching hnquiry. Cyril Smith, a Labour MP was

:41:14.:41:19.

campaigning on Cyril Smith, I remember growing up in Greater

:41:20.:41:23.

around Cyril Smith and rumotrs that around Cyril Smith and rumotrs that

:41:24.:41:26.

the authorities had not let into these issues properly. And so I hope

:41:27.:41:32.

that 20 or 30 years down thd line, this enquiry that the Government has

:41:33.:41:35.

set up can look into all thdse issues, because the key thing is

:41:36.:41:40.

getting justice for the victims of these horrific crimes. Therd is a

:41:41.:41:45.

concern that as we look to the past escape divert resources awax from

:41:46.:41:51.

current abuse cases. One thhng that kept me awake at night as ldader of

:41:52.:41:56.

the County Council was child protection issues because it is so

:41:57.:41:59.

critical and life destroying when it is not looked into properly and

:42:00.:42:04.

prevented. I was confident with the team that we had in Derbyshhre. I

:42:05.:42:10.

think that other local authorities, regardless of party, take this issue

:42:11.:42:12.

incredibly seriously and will continue to do so.

:42:13.:42:17.

This week Leicestershire Cotnty Council ended its public

:42:18.:42:23.

consultation on its decision to hand libraries over two communithes to be

:42:24.:42:27.

run by volunteers and admitted that they could close if no one comes

:42:28.:42:33.

forward. This is one of 36 community

:42:34.:42:37.

libraries that Leicestershire County Council want to support comlunities

:42:38.:42:41.

to run. Many users here lovd their local library and do not want it to

:42:42.:42:47.

change. I love reading, I love my library, and it is the main thing in

:42:48.:42:52.

my life. I understand that the council need to save money, but I do

:42:53.:42:56.

not think that closing the library is the right way to do it. We moved

:42:57.:43:00.

here last year and the libr`ry was one of the first places that we came

:43:01.:43:06.

to. We have made lots of new friends. I love reading and I want

:43:07.:43:13.

my son to as well. I'm keephng my mind open about volunteering. I

:43:14.:43:19.

think it will struggle, it hs not just the case of standing bdhind the

:43:20.:43:22.

counter issuing book, there's a lot more involved. I would love to

:43:23.:43:27.

volunteer, as long as the domain name bringing my sidekick. To cancel

:43:28.:43:33.

it had taken the petition to County Hall. People pay their taxes, their

:43:34.:43:38.

council tax, they expect certain services to be delivered and one of

:43:39.:43:41.

those services is the local library. They wanted to be funded by

:43:42.:43:46.

the County Council and will be staffed by professional librarians.

:43:47.:43:50.

In a statement, Leicestershhre County Council say they will be

:43:51.:43:54.

analysing the responses of this consultation, which closed on

:43:55.:43:57.

Monday, and a report will bd going to Cabinet in September. Thdy go on

:43:58.:44:01.

to say that they understand people value their libraries and w`nt them

:44:02.:44:09.

to continue as community hubs. The community here is already trying to

:44:10.:44:17.

facility, not the library, the local facility, not the library, the local

:44:18.:44:20.

pub. We had a 98% positive vote to say that we wanted to save the pub.

:44:21.:44:25.

But we want to turn it into much more than that, we do not h`ve a

:44:26.:44:31.

such facilities, so we want to have such facilities, so we want to have

:44:32.:44:37.

a small shop, be able to offer perhaps a function room, a coffee

:44:38.:44:43.

bar, parcel drop, picking up prescriptions. It becomes a much

:44:44.:44:47.

are former leader of the Cotnty are former leader of the Cotnty

:44:48.:44:53.

Council, dealing Leicestershire could be doing work? I think that

:44:54.:44:59.

Leicestershire's model of trying to hold onto its libraries this way is

:45:00.:45:02.

interesting. When I was leader of the County Council I ran culture

:45:03.:45:07.

personally because I took it seriously. We brought services into

:45:08.:45:10.

libraries from different departments at the council to keep them vibrant

:45:11.:45:15.

and vital. This is a differdnt model, they've consulted ovdr it

:45:16.:45:21.

widely. I think communities do value their libraries and therefore they

:45:22.:45:27.

will want to help the counchl in difficult times to support the

:45:28.:45:33.

service. Should the council be doing work? The council faces the legacy

:45:34.:45:39.

of an economic recession. Which we are recovering from now. Thdre is a

:45:40.:45:46.

long way to go with it. That means that there will have to be different

:45:47.:45:50.

ways of doing things across the public sector. This is about the

:45:51.:45:52.

money. It is not available, so it makes sense to involve the community

:45:53.:45:55.

in this way. What is driving this is the huge cuts that the Tory `Liberal

:45:56.:45:59.

Government have imposed across local governments across the land.

:46:00.:46:07.

Leicestershire Government and Derbyshire Government have defined

:46:08.:46:14.

cuts. That is the problem hdre. The Government has made decisions about

:46:15.:46:17.

the funding it gets to councils and councils are being forced to

:46:18.:46:26.

respond. Sadly, in this casd, they are closing libraries. Wait like he

:46:27.:46:29.

is saying it is your fault. Am always interested when Labotr see

:46:30.:46:33.

that their cuts are terribld. The Labour Leader says that thex would

:46:34.:46:39.

stick to these conservative lands and they got into power. Wh`t we are

:46:40.:46:46.

actually saying is that we recognise the mess that David Cameron and

:46:47.:46:49.

George Osborne have made with the public finances and we are just

:46:50.:46:56.

being honest that if we get into Government next year then wd will

:46:57.:46:59.

inherent a very unbalanced budget. George Osborne actually prolised to

:47:00.:47:05.

balance the books by 2015, he is going to feel on that. But he is

:47:06.:47:10.

saying that he will inherit your mess. He has been in Governlent now

:47:11.:47:18.

for over four years. The thhng is that people clearly do love their

:47:19.:47:21.

libraries and they are prep`red to fight for them. Leicestershhre

:47:22.:47:26.

County Council said they had 20 0 responses to the consultation and

:47:27.:47:31.

1400 people turned out to mdetings. People are very interested `nd want

:47:32.:47:34.

to care for their libraries. I support that, they are very

:47:35.:47:39.

important. But the economy hs in recovery after a disastrous period

:47:40.:47:45.

under Labour. We have taken time to recover otherwise would be to have

:47:46.:47:49.

had to make more severe cuts. People do not like the cuts, that hs

:47:50.:47:54.

perhaps why you lost Derbyshire People do not like the cuts but they

:47:55.:47:58.

are being made in the national interest. They are being done over a

:47:59.:48:05.

full parliamentary term. Ed Miliband said this week that people would

:48:06.:48:08.

support people powered publhc services. Is that not the s`me thing

:48:09.:48:12.

as the big society? We have said that we want to default mord money

:48:13.:48:16.

so that they can make decishons To so that they can make decishons To

:48:17.:48:20.

be fair, the Government are doing this as well know. These ard the big

:48:21.:48:26.

buzzwords and public policy. We are in favour of that. The Government

:48:27.:48:30.

had taken steps this week. We have gone further... How? Where hs your

:48:31.:48:38.

money going to come from? Wd want the money from the National

:48:39.:48:43.

Department for local authorhties to devolve money to local level. We are

:48:44.:48:48.

interested in projects wherd local people come together and run

:48:49.:48:52.

services. But Leicestershird what is happening is that the Countx Council

:48:53.:48:54.

has taken decisions close lhbraries because of cut that they have got to

:48:55.:48:58.

find because of what central Government has imposed upon them.

:48:59.:49:02.

Next week Derbyshire has announced `` is announcing ?17 million of cuts

:49:03.:49:08.

and they are blaming your Government for it. The leader said that the

:49:09.:49:12.

Government has left us no choice and we are now thinking the unthinkable.

:49:13.:49:17.

I think Derbyshire County Council has been particularly badly run I

:49:18.:49:23.

decisions have been deferred which has made them worse. Money has been

:49:24.:49:28.

given to organisations that printed T`shirts about Margaret Thatcher's

:49:29.:49:33.

death and all sorts of things. You are saying they have wasted money?

:49:34.:49:37.

Yes, they have put off making decisions. They are Labour `uthority

:49:38.:49:45.

that must be worrying to thd rest of the Labour Party because thdy have

:49:46.:49:49.

messed things up. It is the end of the political year. Parliamdnt rises

:49:50.:49:53.

in just two weeks's time and when MPs return in autumn it will be in

:49:54.:49:57.

the final run`up to the gendral election. We will be getting the

:49:58.:50:00.

views of our political editor about how that election fight is shaping

:50:01.:50:05.

up in the East Midlands. Here is our look back at the highlights of the

:50:06.:50:08.

year so far. Your Sunday politics is in Brussels

:50:09.:50:12.

this week for a special programme here in the European Parlialent

:50:13.:50:20.

What can I say? Queries that chocolate shop? Rain mac I would

:50:21.:50:25.

love to show you inside but the races following in. My partx's

:50:26.:50:39.

record is better than your Lib Dems. It is pushing the Lib Dems hnto

:50:40.:50:44.

fifth place. I will not apologise. Some people would say that `s Labour

:50:45.:50:48.

authorities you have picked high`profile services to cut. Not so

:50:49.:50:56.

many people are wanting to foster or adopt children, I think that more

:50:57.:51:02.

people should. How are you going to regulate the drilling? We h`ve come

:51:03.:51:07.

to Newark market to do the cupcake challenge. Being a backbench MP can

:51:08.:51:28.

be very rewarding indeed. Ddnnis Skinner shouted out, are yot on work

:51:29.:51:34.

experience? I know what it hs like. My phone has been playing up. Maybe

:51:35.:51:39.

it was that call for the vote of no confidence. Might have had something

:51:40.:51:51.

to do with it. It was a black Dalek, fight Dalek and great Dalek and I

:51:52.:51:57.

lost one of them. It is likd your life just flashing before your eyes.

:51:58.:52:06.

Let us look ahead to what is in store in the run`up to the general

:52:07.:52:10.

election. What have in the big themes in the East Midlands? Three

:52:11.:52:14.

things spring out for me. One thing is that the coalition are still

:52:15.:52:18.

going after four years. It lay appear to be a bit like a t`ndem,

:52:19.:52:22.

with David Cameron holding onto the handlebars, Nick Clegg going behind

:52:23.:52:27.

him. Basically it is holding together. The other thing is the

:52:28.:52:32.

economy. The East Midlands hs very much in the driving seat of the

:52:33.:52:38.

revival. The politics, the Newark by`election, the European

:52:39.:52:40.

elections, that has definitdly given the Tories and the Prime Minister

:52:41.:52:45.

rebounds. Here is one of thd reasons for that Tory bones. `` bounce. They

:52:46.:52:55.

may have put UKIP in a box. What should we be looking out for? The

:52:56.:53:00.

parties will be increasinglx pitting those booster rockets under their

:53:01.:53:04.

campaigns. Destination general election next May. You will find

:53:05.:53:08.

increasingly as the Tories, the Labour Party and Liberal Delocrats

:53:09.:53:12.

put the items in their shop window what they would do in Government. We

:53:13.:53:17.

will have a reshuffle very soon the next couple of days, will Kdn Clarke

:53:18.:53:21.

remaining Cabinet and to wh`t extent will the Prime Minister be `ble to

:53:22.:53:29.

promote women at the top table. That has a knock`on effect for Ed

:53:30.:53:32.

Miliband, will he start to shuffle his pack? And then Scotland, the

:53:33.:53:38.

referendum result in September. That will have a huge effect, not only on

:53:39.:53:45.

British politics, but on thd role of English cities. What would be the

:53:46.:53:50.

knock`on effect for that? You are involved in labour's campaign. Is it

:53:51.:53:56.

just coincidence is the East Midlands going to be this bhg battle

:53:57.:54:00.

ground in the coming general election? I think it is just pointed

:54:01.:54:05.

and is that we have got to outstanding Labour MPs, frol the

:54:06.:54:10.

East Midlands. But you are right, the East Midlands are going to be a

:54:11.:54:21.

big battle ground. The Tory membership in these seats is

:54:22.:54:26.

actually falling. But at thd same time they are getting big money

:54:27.:54:29.

donations in. So I think th`t if you live in Amber Valley, where Labour

:54:30.:54:37.

won the local elections, yot will be getting a lot of glossy litdrature

:54:38.:54:41.

from the Tory party. But in laughter about you will also be getthng the

:54:42.:54:43.

Labour candidate knocking on your door. It is going to be people

:54:44.:54:52.

power. Have the Conservativds feeling as they go into the summer

:54:53.:54:57.

break? Because you did when the Newark by`election but you had a cut

:54:58.:55:00.

in your majority which John has just alluded to. That could translate to

:55:01.:55:05.

losing a lot of marginal se`ts here in the East Midlands. I am sure that

:55:06.:55:10.

those knocks on the door or something for everybody to look

:55:11.:55:15.

forward to. We have won a by`election in Amber Valley already.

:55:16.:55:21.

On top of their European success, there is an agreement betwedn John

:55:22.:55:26.

and I that this is a key battle ground and there will be a lot of

:55:27.:55:28.

national attention on our area because it will determine pretty

:55:29.:55:34.

much who forms a Government. East Midlands economy is growing very

:55:35.:55:37.

quickly, new report says we have seen the biggest growth in the

:55:38.:55:42.

number of jobs in the country. I am pleased that there are more jobs in

:55:43.:55:45.

the East Midlands economy btt what we're finding is that peopld are

:55:46.:55:50.

still worse off. I do better or for worse off under the Tory Government,

:55:51.:55:54.

in the East Midlands you're still worse off. It is increasingly

:55:55.:55:57.

characterised by squeezed w`ges low pay and part`time or zero otr

:55:58.:56:03.

contracts. People are in work but what are not `` is not as mtch as

:56:04.:56:11.

what they did before. There are more cuts to come, job losses as well,

:56:12.:56:15.

that is not good news in thd run`up to a general election. Cartoon ever

:56:16.:56:21.

popular and it is our job to explain why they have been necessarx `` cuts

:56:22.:56:26.

are never popular. We need to show what progress we have made hn

:56:27.:56:31.

rebuilding the economy. The fact we are getting significant growth is

:56:32.:56:37.

good news for everybody. It is not significant growth, it is growth.

:56:38.:56:44.

Into significant growth. George Osborne said that it should be much

:56:45.:56:50.

more by now. Any growth can be considered a huge achievement. We

:56:51.:56:53.

are proud of it and we will take it to the doorstep. What are they not

:56:54.:56:59.

seeing here? What are they `voiding? Isn't that fascinating. That is what

:57:00.:57:03.

it will all be about. The two issues that I would sum up, the Tories do

:57:04.:57:08.

not want to talk about UKIP, Nigel Farage, will he get a nomin`tion

:57:09.:57:14.

probably in Kent, he will bd fighting the Tories. UKIP whll be a

:57:15.:57:21.

big problem for the Conserv`tives. For Labour, the elephant in the room

:57:22.:57:23.

is Ed Miliband's personal poll rating. Labour are doing all key in

:57:24.:57:31.

the polls, they are picking up local authority by`election seats, but Ed

:57:32.:57:34.

Miliband's personal rating hs still to move. UKIP will be a big worry

:57:35.:57:44.

for you? I am happy to talk about UKIP. I am happy to explain that

:57:45.:57:49.

what I think has changed with the UKIP vote is that when we h`d the

:57:50.:57:52.

County Council elections thdre was clearly a huge UKIP vote, mtch

:57:53.:57:57.

bigger than people expected and it did damage Conservatives. What has

:57:58.:58:01.

happened since is that in Etropean elections UKIP's support has

:58:02.:58:06.

broadened across into labour and it is up to both of us as the

:58:07.:58:11.

mainstream parties to make the case that the vote and the choicd in the

:58:12.:58:15.

general election is who do xou want as Prime Minister, David Caleron or

:58:16.:58:21.

Ed Miliband. Are you worried about UKIP? Politicians have to understand

:58:22.:58:25.

why such huge numbers of people voted UKIP and we should not dismiss

:58:26.:58:30.

their concerns, but I am not worried about them as such. What about your

:58:31.:58:34.

party leader? The elephant hn the room? Of course he is the rhght man

:58:35.:58:41.

for the job. John is going on about ratings. In the opinion polls we

:58:42.:58:45.

have been consistently ahead of the Conservatives. The other thhng John

:58:46.:58:49.

has not mentioned, extraordhnarily, four years ago we would havd been

:58:50.:58:54.

talking about the Liberal Ddmocrats. They are finished. They are not

:58:55.:58:58.

competitive in the East Midlands in the East Midlands and as

:58:59.:59:00.

Parliamentary election and peer to four years ago. It is, and there are

:59:01.:59:07.

none of them here to defend themselves. Time for a round`up of

:59:08.:59:18.

some of the other political stories. Fancy making history? The ptblic has

:59:19.:59:21.

been consulted on a new Magna Carter. They're not the North MP is

:59:22.:59:27.

leading a nationwide discussion on radical changes to our political

:59:28.:59:34.

system. A lot of people do not know the difference between Parlhament

:59:35.:59:37.

and Government or central Government and local Government, we ard opening

:59:38.:59:51.

a six`month debate with the public. The constabulary have no ch`nge to

:59:52.:59:57.

mac train their officers to get their support worked compassionate

:59:58.:59:59.

victim support. These honourable victims will not feel intimhdated to

:00:00.:00:05.

speak out. The head of Derbx City Council is keen to meet the public.

:00:06.:00:13.

He is whole `` holding local sessions every month.

:00:14.:00:26.

That is the Sunday Politics here in the East Midlands. Thank yot to my

:00:27.:00:33.

guests. We will be back in the autumn

:00:34.:00:34.

will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have.

:00:35.:00:47.

So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including

:00:48.:00:49.

a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and

:00:50.:00:52.

Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make

:00:53.:01:12.

a difference? It will make a difference because we have

:01:13.:01:19.

established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and

:01:20.:01:24.

why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent

:01:25.:01:32.

and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed

:01:33.:01:35.

this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed

:01:36.:01:47.

through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international

:01:48.:01:53.

examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon

:01:54.:01:58.

passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of

:01:59.:02:03.

control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled

:02:04.:02:06.

down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for

:02:07.:02:15.

this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a

:02:16.:02:19.

principled objection but most other people have a practical objection,

:02:20.:02:22.

which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous

:02:23.:02:26.

relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a

:02:27.:02:30.

controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is

:02:31.:02:35.

on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church

:02:36.:02:39.

against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is

:02:40.:02:47.

stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who

:02:48.:02:52.

can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who

:02:53.:02:58.

can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is

:02:59.:03:02.

potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of

:03:03.:03:06.

Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of

:03:07.:03:10.

England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please

:03:11.:03:17.

withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court

:03:18.:03:22.

kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of

:03:23.:03:26.

three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that

:03:27.:03:32.

banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights,

:03:33.:03:37.

but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to

:03:38.:03:46.

decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament In

:03:47.:03:51.

record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson

:03:52.:03:59.

and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the

:04:00.:04:04.

establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great

:04:05.:04:11.

quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act

:04:12.:04:16.

and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to

:04:17.:04:22.

look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could.

:04:23.:04:26.

There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about

:04:27.:04:30.

drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look

:04:31.:04:34.

something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is

:04:35.:04:41.

right or is the political establishment right? I think the

:04:42.:04:50.

establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We

:04:51.:04:56.

are in a unique position where all three political parties have

:04:57.:04:58.

relatively recent experience of government so they now that security

:04:59.:05:03.

threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation

:05:04.:05:10.

being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I

:05:11.:05:16.

do not see the political controversy. All three political

:05:17.:05:22.

parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always

:05:23.:05:30.

are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but

:05:31.:05:34.

a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political

:05:35.:05:41.

controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy

:05:42.:05:47.

about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting,

:05:48.:05:53.

it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys

:05:54.:06:02.

setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have

:06:03.:06:06.

serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out

:06:07.:06:13.

in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have

:06:14.:06:19.

said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public

:06:20.:06:20.

school. For many English football fans,

:06:21.:06:24.

tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick

:06:25.:06:26.

between two traditional foes Well, if you're

:06:27.:06:30.

a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the

:06:31.:06:33.

nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced

:06:34.:06:36.

a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament,

:06:37.:06:51.

it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing

:06:52.:06:56.

and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group

:06:57.:07:00.

with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems

:07:01.:07:06.

There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over

:07:07.:07:09.

authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it

:07:10.:07:11.

through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the

:07:12.:07:21.

worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The

:07:22.:07:25.

left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and

:07:26.:07:30.

authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives

:07:31.:07:35.

remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the

:07:36.:07:43.

semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking

:07:44.:07:50.

on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out

:07:51.:07:55.

Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that

:07:56.:08:00.

pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?

:08:01.:08:10.

We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser

:08:11.:08:12.

Should we read political significance in to the fact that the

:08:13.:08:26.

only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?

:08:27.:08:31.

Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a

:08:32.:08:36.

Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour

:08:37.:08:42.

government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina

:08:43.:08:46.

Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It

:08:47.:08:52.

is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best

:08:53.:09:00.

football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2 10

:09:01.:09:05.

as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing

:09:06.:09:10.

people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I

:09:11.:09:15.

would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to

:09:16.:09:20.

seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not

:09:21.:09:28.

around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong

:09:29.:09:32.

political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the

:09:33.:09:44.

World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort

:09:45.:09:48.

of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk

:09:49.:09:56.

about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league

:09:57.:10:02.

is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very

:10:03.:10:07.

different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual

:10:08.:10:16.

good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the

:10:17.:10:24.

club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate.

:10:25.:10:27.

Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and

:10:28.:10:32.

centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team

:10:33.:10:44.

and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch

:10:45.:10:48.

Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few

:10:49.:10:51.

weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he

:10:52.:10:57.

was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support

:10:58.:11:03.

Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic

:11:04.:11:08.

regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and

:11:09.:11:20.

democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards.

:11:21.:11:26.

Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win

:11:27.:11:35.

under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you

:11:36.:11:40.

cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know

:11:41.:11:48.

that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we draw any

:11:49.:11:57.

conclusions between a political system and the performance of the

:11:58.:12:03.

football team? You can draw certain parallels between maybe national

:12:04.:12:06.

cliches, so the Germans are efficient and effective, which might

:12:07.:12:14.

reflect and the English are very polite so we let everyone score

:12:15.:12:18.

first and go into the second round. We put ourselves at the back of the

:12:19.:12:23.

queue. Is England going to qualify for the European? We are going to

:12:24.:12:35.

win the European Championship. The first country Scotland have to play

:12:36.:12:38.

is Germany. What could possibly go wrong? Who is going to win? Germany.

:12:39.:12:51.

Germany. I am going to put a few bob on Argentina. Are you going to be

:12:52.:12:55.

watching? Absolutely. Thank you This is the last Sunday Politics

:12:56.:13:02.

for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn

:13:03.:13:07.

and our first programme will be live from Scotland,

:13:08.:13:10.

the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow

:13:11.:13:16.

at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer

:13:17.:13:21.

on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:22.:13:24.

it's the Sunday Politics, unless

:13:25.:13:27.

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