28/09/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


28/09/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 28/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,

:00:36.:00:38.

live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.

:00:39.:00:45.

There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected

:00:46.:00:46.

He joins us live from his constituency, where he has

:00:47.:00:52.

It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he

:00:53.:00:59.

arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.

:01:00.:01:02.

On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned

:01:03.:01:05.

RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq

:01:06.:01:13.

Will UKIP be stealing any of our East Midlands MPs?

:01:14.:01:22.

Plus is it time we joined up with the West Midlands to demand

:01:23.:01:25.

In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those

:01:26.:01:32.

priced out are choosing to move away.

:01:33.:01:37.

And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,

:01:38.:01:41.

who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.

:01:42.:01:44.

Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.

:01:45.:01:51.

And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:52.:01:54.

And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.

:01:55.:01:58.

At the current rate of Tory resignations,

:01:59.:02:00.

Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote

:02:01.:02:04.

address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.

:02:05.:02:07.

It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP

:02:08.:02:11.

defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and

:02:12.:02:15.

Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.

:02:16.:02:21.

Here's what the Prime Minister had to say

:02:22.:02:28.

These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and

:02:29.:02:40.

rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you

:02:41.:02:44.

want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain

:02:45.:02:47.

that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a

:02:48.:02:51.

Conservative government after the next election.

:02:52.:02:53.

And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.

:02:54.:03:02.

Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative

:03:03.:03:09.

colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping

:03:10.:03:12.

faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You

:03:13.:03:16.

heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was

:03:17.:03:20.

dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have

:03:21.:03:24.

increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour

:03:25.:03:28.

managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under

:03:29.:03:33.

Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my

:03:34.:03:37.

words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut

:03:38.:03:40.

immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to

:03:41.:03:45.

the community, particularly over house-building. The government has

:03:46.:03:48.

broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my

:03:49.:03:53.

voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to

:03:54.:03:59.

UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency

:04:00.:04:03.

chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and

:04:04.:04:07.

you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office

:04:08.:04:12.

telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the

:04:13.:04:17.

Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..

:04:18.:04:38.

So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham

:04:39.:04:43.

to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did

:04:44.:04:50.

you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually

:04:51.:04:55.

do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you

:04:56.:04:58.

cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a

:04:59.:05:01.

decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by

:05:02.:05:05.

UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a

:05:06.:05:11.

lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.

:05:12.:05:20.

That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this

:05:21.:05:26.

country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,

:05:27.:05:32.

quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.

:05:33.:05:37.

So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting

:05:38.:05:43.

UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number

:05:44.:05:46.

of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are

:05:47.:05:50.

winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned

:05:51.:05:53.

with the political class in Westminster, that they have not

:05:54.:05:57.

voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is

:05:58.:06:01.

inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the

:06:02.:06:06.

last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of

:06:07.:06:11.

life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.

:06:12.:06:14.

That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of

:06:15.:06:21.

change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My

:06:22.:06:26.

ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10

:06:27.:06:30.

as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David

:06:31.:06:34.

Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick

:06:35.:06:38.

Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and

:06:39.:06:42.

we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to

:06:43.:06:46.

pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to

:06:47.:06:51.

give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up

:06:52.:06:58.

for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the

:06:59.:07:07.

party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this

:07:08.:07:11.

is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you

:07:12.:07:17.

winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are

:07:18.:07:20.

frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to

:07:21.:07:26.

save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,

:07:27.:07:30.

you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in

:07:31.:07:34.

Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at

:07:35.:07:44.

MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their

:07:45.:07:48.

voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking

:07:49.:07:52.

permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe

:07:53.:07:56.

many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a

:07:57.:08:00.

Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to

:08:01.:08:03.

decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our

:08:04.:08:11.

country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and

:08:12.:08:14.

have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and

:08:15.:08:22.

honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my

:08:23.:08:26.

constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is

:08:27.:08:31.

the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and

:08:32.:08:35.

do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas

:08:36.:08:42.

Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for

:08:43.:08:44.

disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,

:08:45.:08:51.

the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was

:08:52.:08:54.

extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years

:08:55.:08:59.

ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit

:09:00.:09:02.

speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things

:09:03.:09:06.

there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at

:09:07.:09:11.

Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few

:09:12.:09:14.

ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just

:09:15.:09:18.

to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who

:09:19.:09:23.

believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,

:09:24.:09:30.

who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which

:09:31.:09:37.

has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,

:09:38.:09:40.

which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -

:09:41.:09:47.

after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David

:09:48.:09:50.

Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would

:09:51.:09:57.

you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP

:09:58.:10:00.

policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with

:10:01.:10:07.

immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will

:10:08.:10:13.

look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to

:10:14.:10:18.

restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How

:10:19.:10:31.

serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,

:10:32.:10:36.

destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is

:10:37.:10:39.

beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen

:10:40.:10:44.

eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing

:10:45.:10:50.

like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.

:10:51.:10:54.

There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis

:10:55.:10:59.

writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the

:11:00.:11:01.

first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used

:11:02.:11:05.

to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic

:11:06.:11:11.

in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some

:11:12.:11:16.

of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.

:11:17.:11:20.

There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the

:11:21.:11:23.

media problem of the general election which they cannot win if

:11:24.:11:26.

UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in

:11:27.:11:30.

many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does

:11:31.:11:34.

it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would

:11:35.:11:38.

it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics

:11:39.:11:43.

to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the

:11:44.:11:49.

Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably

:11:50.:11:53.

lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising

:11:54.:12:00.

them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It

:12:01.:12:05.

is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I

:12:06.:12:10.

was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the

:12:11.:12:15.

TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.

:12:16.:12:19.

But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to

:12:20.:12:23.

step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what

:12:24.:12:29.

he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in

:12:30.:12:34.

the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that

:12:35.:12:37.

we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they

:12:38.:12:41.

say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,

:12:42.:12:46.

Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this

:12:47.:12:51.

is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able

:12:52.:12:58.

to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly

:12:59.:13:02.

list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,

:13:03.:13:07.

this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.

:13:08.:13:19.

To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative

:13:20.:13:21.

The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative

:13:22.:13:26.

Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000 councillors -

:13:27.:13:31.

that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier

:13:32.:13:34.

There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,

:13:35.:13:47.

and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to

:13:48.:13:50.

the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of

:13:51.:13:54.

Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge

:13:55.:14:00.

they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.

:14:01.:14:06.

Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of

:14:07.:14:09.

pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories

:14:10.:14:14.

run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten

:14:15.:14:21.

councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more

:14:22.:14:25.

ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is

:14:26.:14:30.

getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing

:14:31.:14:33.

seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be

:14:34.:14:43.

stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the

:14:44.:14:45.

policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU

:14:46.:14:51.

Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,

:14:52.:14:57.

39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...

:14:58.:15:09.

It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said

:15:10.:15:17.

were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while

:15:18.:15:22.

treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a

:15:23.:15:27.

Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative

:15:28.:15:32.

councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the

:15:33.:15:36.

general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are

:15:37.:15:43.

opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left

:15:44.:15:48.

the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the

:15:49.:15:55.

Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but

:15:56.:16:00.

what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my

:16:01.:16:09.

residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was

:16:10.:16:14.

happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%

:16:15.:16:21.

think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with

:16:22.:16:27.

31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing

:16:28.:16:32.

councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an

:16:33.:16:38.

issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a

:16:39.:16:46.

way by setting a rule like that it is a very religious thing and it is

:16:47.:16:50.

almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the

:16:51.:16:56.

party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey

:16:57.:17:02.

thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have

:17:03.:17:07.

not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for

:17:08.:17:14.

difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must

:17:15.:17:18.

be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be

:17:19.:17:24.

specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote

:17:25.:17:30.

UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are

:17:31.:17:33.

disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,

:17:34.:17:38.

come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just

:17:39.:17:42.

eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and

:17:43.:17:47.

local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem

:17:48.:17:54.

the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former

:17:55.:18:00.

Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.

:18:01.:18:04.

Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't

:18:05.:18:08.

trust the party leadership to deliver on Europe, do they? They

:18:09.:18:13.

believe people like you and David Cameron will campaign to stay in and

:18:14.:18:18.

they are right. They said before they defected that people should

:18:19.:18:24.

vote Conservative to get a referendum on Europe, and that is

:18:25.:18:30.

right of course. The only way to get a referendum is to do that and this

:18:31.:18:35.

is the point, the people should decide. However a future government

:18:36.:18:39.

decides it will campaign, it should be the people of the country who

:18:40.:18:44.

decide. Can you say to our viewers this morning that is not enough

:18:45.:18:49.

powers are repatriated back to Britain, you would want to come

:18:50.:18:54.

out, can you say that? Our objective is to get those powers and stay in.

:18:55.:19:00.

The answer to the question is I won't be deciding, David Cameron

:19:01.:19:05.

won't be deciding, you the voters will be deciding. But you have to

:19:06.:19:11.

give us your view. If you don't get enough powers back, would you vote

:19:12.:19:16.

to come out and recommended? Our objective is to get those powers and

:19:17.:19:22.

be able to stay in. You just get endless speculation years in

:19:23.:19:26.

advance. I will decide at the time how I will vote. Surely that is the

:19:27.:19:31.

rational position for everyone to take but I want a referendum to take

:19:32.:19:37.

place. I understand that. As you pointed out to Mark Reckless just

:19:38.:19:41.

now, unless there is a Conservative government, people won't have that

:19:42.:19:46.

choice. Under a Labour government they will not get a choice at all.

:19:47.:19:54.

Our survey of Tory councillors shows that almost 50% would vote to leave

:19:55.:19:58.

the EU in a referendum. I think it showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but

:19:59.:20:06.

again, I'm pretty sure they will decide at the time. They will want

:20:07.:20:12.

to see what a future government achieves in a renegotiation before

:20:13.:20:16.

they decide what to vote in a referendum. Unless David Cameron is

:20:17.:20:20.

Prime Minister and there is a Conservative government, there will

:20:21.:20:28.

not be a renegotiation. That is a point you have made four times. I

:20:29.:20:33.

think they have got it. Your Cabinet colleague says we should not be

:20:34.:20:36.

scared of quitting the EU, but you went native in the Foreign Office,

:20:37.:20:41.

didn't you? You used to be a Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign

:20:42.:20:46.

Office line man. No, I don't think so! We brought back the first

:20:47.:20:51.

reduced European budget ever in history. Even Margaret Thatcher ..

:20:52.:20:58.

Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't it? Not much scares me after 26

:20:59.:21:03.

years in politics but we want to do the best thing for the country.

:21:04.:21:12.

Where we scared when we got us out of liability for Eurozone bailouts?

:21:13.:21:16.

We were not scared of anybody. People said we couldn't achieve

:21:17.:21:19.

things but we negotiated these things. We can do that with a wider

:21:20.:21:27.

negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless says he cannot keep the Conservative

:21:28.:21:34.

promise to tackle immigration. You have failed to keep your promise to

:21:35.:21:47.

keep net immigration down. You promised to cut it below 100,00 ,

:21:48.:21:53.

you failed. It is over 200,000 people. We have cut it from 250 000

:21:54.:22:11.

in 2005, the last figures were 240,000. I think we can file that

:22:12.:22:19.

under F four failed. It includes students, we want them in the

:22:20.:22:24.

country. You knew that when you made the promise. But has it come down?

:22:25.:22:28.

Yes, it has. Have we stopped the promise. But has it come down?

:22:29.:22:35.

coming here because of our benefit system? Yes. None of that happened

:22:36.:22:39.

under Labour. If Mark Reckless had his way, it would be more likely we

:22:40.:22:45.

would have a Labour government. They have an open door policy on

:22:46.:22:50.

immigration. You are not just losing MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters.

:22:51.:22:56.

Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows that 20% of people who voted Tory in

:22:57.:23:01.

2010 have abandoned youth and three quarters of them are voting UKIP

:23:02.:23:06.

now. We will see in the general election. Politics is very fluid in

:23:07.:23:12.

this country and we shouldn't deny that in any way but UKIP thought

:23:13.:23:17.

they were going to win the by-election in Newark, we had a

:23:18.:23:21.

thumping Conservative victory, and I think opinion polls are snapshots of

:23:22.:23:26.

opinion now. They are not forecast of the general election and we will

:23:27.:23:30.

be doing everything we can to get our message across. Today we are

:23:31.:23:34.

announcing 3 million more apprenticeships in the next

:23:35.:23:39.

Parliament. I think this is what people will be voting on, rather

:23:40.:23:44.

than who has defected. Your activist base once parked with UKIP. Our

:23:45.:23:52.

survey shows a third of Tory councillors would like a formal pact

:23:53.:23:58.

with UKIP. Why not? It shows two thirds are against it. No, it shows

:23:59.:24:08.

one third want it. I read the figures, it showed 67% don't want

:24:09.:24:14.

it. We are not going to make a pact with other parties, and they don't

:24:15.:24:18.

work in the British electoral system even if they were desirable. You are

:24:19.:24:25.

sharing the Cabinet committee on English votes for English laws. Is

:24:26.:24:30.

further devolution for Scotland conditional on progress towards

:24:31.:24:35.

English devolution? No, the commitment to Scotland is

:24:36.:24:38.

unconditional. We will meet the commitments to Scotland but we

:24:39.:24:42.

believe, we the Conservatives believe, that in tandem with that we

:24:43.:24:46.

have to resolve these questions about fairness to the rest of the UK

:24:47.:24:52.

as well. That will depend on other parties or the general election

:24:53.:24:56.

result. Are you committed to the Gordon Brown timetable? Yes,

:24:57.:25:02.

absolutely. So you are committed to producing draft legislation by Burns

:25:03.:25:07.

night, that is at the end of January. Will you produce proposals

:25:08.:25:12.

for English votes on English laws by then? We will, but whether they are

:25:13.:25:17.

agreed across the parties will depend on the other parties. There

:25:18.:25:23.

was no sign that they were agreeable at the Labour conference. We will

:25:24.:25:31.

produce our ideas on the same timetable as the timetable for

:25:32.:25:35.

Scottish devolution. You will therefore bring forward proposals

:25:36.:25:40.

for English votes for English laws by the end of January? Yes. And will

:25:41.:25:45.

you attempt to get them on the statute book before the election?

:25:46.:25:50.

The commitment in Scotland is to legislate after the election. You

:25:51.:25:56.

will publish a bill beforehand? We will publish proposals beforehand. I

:25:57.:26:00.

don't exclude doing something before the election, but the Scottish

:26:01.:26:05.

timetable is to legislate for the further devolution after the general

:26:06.:26:09.

election, whoever wins the election. Have you given thought as to what

:26:10.:26:15.

English votes for English laws would mean? I have thought a lot of it

:26:16.:26:21.

over 15 years. I am not going to prejudge what the outcome will be,

:26:22.:26:26.

but it does mean in essence that when decisions are taken, decisions

:26:27.:26:32.

that only affect England or only England and Wales, then only the MPs

:26:33.:26:37.

from England and Wales should be making those decisions. You can

:26:38.:26:40.

achieve that in many different ways. Is that it for English

:26:41.:26:45.

devolution, is that what it amounts to? That is devolution to England if

:26:46.:26:51.

you like, but within England there is a lot of other devolution going

:26:52.:26:55.

on and we might well want to extend that further. We have given more

:26:56.:27:00.

freedom to local authorities, there is a lot of scope to do more of

:27:01.:27:05.

that, but that in itself is not the answer to the problem of what

:27:06.:27:14.

happens at Westminster. You haven't just given Scotland more devolution

:27:15.:27:19.

or planned to do it, you have also enshrined the Barnett formula and

:27:20.:27:24.

that seems to be in perpetuity. It is widely regarded as being unfair

:27:25.:27:28.

to Wales and many of the poorer English regions. Why do you

:27:29.:27:33.

perpetuate it? It will become less relevant overtime if more

:27:34.:27:40.

tax-raising powers... It goes all the way back to the 1970s, we made a

:27:41.:27:46.

commitment on that, we will keep our commitments to Scotland as more --

:27:47.:27:51.

but as more tax-raising powers devolved, the Barnett formula is

:27:52.:27:58.

less significant. If you transfer ?5 billion of tax-raising powers to

:27:59.:28:03.

Scotland, 5 billion comes off the Barnett formula? It will be a lot

:28:04.:28:08.

more complicated than that, but yes, as their own decisions about

:28:09.:28:13.

taxation are made, the grand from Westminster will go down. And you

:28:14.:28:18.

can guarantee that if there is a majority Conservative government,

:28:19.:28:23.

there will be English votes for English laws after the election

:28:24.:28:26.

Yes, I stress again that there are different ways of doing it but if

:28:27.:28:30.

there is no cross-party agreement on that, the Conservatives will produce

:28:31.:28:34.

our proposals and campaign for them in the general election. Don't go

:28:35.:28:40.

away because I want to move on to some other matters.

:28:41.:28:46.

Now to the fight against so-called Islamic State terrorists.

:28:47.:28:48.

Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried out their first flights over Iraq

:28:49.:28:51.

since MPs gave their approval for air-strikes against the militants.

:28:52.:28:53.

When you face a situation with psychobabble -- psychopathic killers

:28:54.:29:02.

who have already brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have

:29:03.:29:06.

already launched and tried to execute plots in our own country to

:29:07.:29:11.

maim innocent people, we have a choice - we can either stand back

:29:12.:29:16.

from this and say it is too difficult, let's let someone else

:29:17.:29:20.

try to keep our country safe, or we take the correct decision to have a

:29:21.:29:24.

full, comprehensive strategy but let's be prepared to play our role

:29:25.:29:29.

to make sure these people cannot do not trust harm.

:29:30.:29:33.

And William Hague is still with me - until July he was, of course,

:29:34.:29:36.

Why have only six Tornado jets being mobilised? Do not assume that is all

:29:37.:29:49.

that will be taking part in this operation. That is all that has been

:29:50.:29:52.

announced and I do not think we should speculate. Even the Danes are

:29:53.:30:00.

sending more fighter jets. There is no restriction in the House of

:30:01.:30:02.

Commons resolution passed on Friday on what we can do. So why so

:30:03.:30:08.

little? Do not underestimate what our Tornados can do. They have some

:30:09.:30:13.

unique capabilities, capabilities which have been specifically asked

:30:14.:30:18.

for by our allies. When you are on the wrong end of six Tornados, it

:30:19.:30:21.

will not feel like a small effort. But there will be other things which

:30:22.:30:27.

can add to that effort. We are joining in a month after the

:30:28.:30:30.

operation started, we are late, we are behind America, France,

:30:31.:30:36.

Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, one hand tied behind our

:30:37.:30:39.

backs cause of the rule about not attacking Syria - why is the British

:30:40.:30:45.

government leading from behind? First of all, we are a democratic

:30:46.:30:49.

country, and you know all about Parliamentary approval. You could

:30:50.:30:54.

have recalled parliament. We have done that, with a political

:30:55.:30:58.

consensus. Other European countries also took the decision on Friday to

:30:59.:31:03.

send their military assets. Our allies are absolutely content with

:31:04.:31:06.

that, and Britain will play an important role, along with many

:31:07.:31:09.

other nations, including Arab nations. General Sir David Richards

:31:10.:31:17.

Sheriff, who just steps down as the Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he

:31:18.:31:22.

condemns the spineless lack of leadership and the absence of any

:31:23.:31:24.

credible strategy. It is embarrassing,isn't it? Of course,

:31:25.:31:35.

they turn into armchair generals. We are playing an important role, we

:31:36.:31:39.

are a democratic country. Your viewers will remember, we had a vote

:31:40.:31:44.

last year on military action in Syria and we were defeated in the

:31:45.:31:47.

House of Commons, a bad moment for our foreign policy. We have taken

:31:48.:31:51.

care to bring this forward when we can win a vote in the House of

:31:52.:31:55.

Commons, and that is how we will proceed. The air Chief Marshal until

:31:56.:32:03.

recently in charge of the RAF, he says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq

:32:04.:32:08.

but not Syria. He calls the decision ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make

:32:09.:32:15.

sense to bomb Iraq, because the Iraqi government has asked for our

:32:16.:32:23.

assistance. This came up a lot in the debate on Friday, and the Prime

:32:24.:32:26.

Minister explained, similar to what I have just been saying, that there

:32:27.:32:32.

is not a political consensus about Syria in the House of Commons. When

:32:33.:32:36.

we did it last year, we were defeated, and it was described by

:32:37.:32:40.

all commentators as a huge blow to the government and to our foreign

:32:41.:32:46.

policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there is a majority

:32:47.:32:49.

in this country to do so in the House of Commons. Professor Michael

:32:50.:32:55.

Clarke, one of the world top experts on military strategy and history, he

:32:56.:33:01.

says there are very few important IS targets in northern Iraq, that they

:33:02.:33:05.

are all in Syria, and we are limiting ourselves to the periphery

:33:06.:33:10.

of the campaign. First of all, just because you are not doing everything

:33:11.:33:13.

does not mean you should not do something. Secondly, the United

:33:14.:33:17.

States and other countries are engaged in the action against

:33:18.:33:21.

targets in Syria. This is a coalition effort, with people doing

:33:22.:33:27.

different things. Thirdly, if we were to put their proposal to the

:33:28.:33:31.

House of Commons tomorrow, and it was defeated, we would not have

:33:32.:33:35.

achieved a great deal. You do not know it would have been defeated.

:33:36.:33:39.

The Labour Party has given no indication they would have supported

:33:40.:33:43.

that. So, you are hostage to the Labour Party? We have to win a

:33:44.:33:48.

democratic vote in the House of Commons, and the Labour Party is a

:33:49.:33:51.

very large part of the House of Commons. You are asking us to pursue

:33:52.:33:57.

a policy which at the moment could be defeated in Parliament. Is it not

:33:58.:34:02.

embarrassing to be on the wrong side of so many of these military

:34:03.:34:07.

experts? Why should we trust the judgment of here today, gone

:34:08.:34:11.

tomorrow, politicians? We have the military experts with us now. We

:34:12.:34:18.

have a national security council, we do not have sofa government, unlike

:34:19.:34:22.

the last government. The national security council is chaired by the

:34:23.:34:25.

Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief of Defence Staff and the heads of

:34:26.:34:33.

the intelligence agencies. And we take decisions together with the

:34:34.:34:37.

people who have the information now. So, you will know what British

:34:38.:34:43.

and American intelligence says about Syria. The Prime Minister has said

:34:44.:34:48.

there is a danger that the British-born jihadists will come

:34:49.:34:52.

back and attack us. But the intelligence reports which you will

:34:53.:34:54.

have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and its associates are selecting,

:34:55.:35:00.

indoctrinating and training jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does

:35:01.:35:06.

that not make the Syrian exclusion even more ludicrous? I cannot

:35:07.:35:13.

comment on intelligence. Is the situation in Syria I direct threat

:35:14.:35:18.

to this country? Yes, it is. Have we excluded action? No, we haven't.

:35:19.:35:24.

Could you come back to the House? The Prime Minister said, it was in

:35:25.:35:28.

the motion put to the House of Commons, that if we want to take

:35:29.:35:32.

action in Syria, we will come back to the House of Commons. But we have

:35:33.:35:37.

not taken any decision about that and we would not do so if we thought

:35:38.:35:42.

we were going to be defeated again. The government supports US strikes

:35:43.:35:45.

on Syria, show you must relieve they are legal. Either way the legal

:35:46.:35:52.

basis differs from one country to another, according to their reading

:35:53.:35:56.

of international law. But you have supported it. We do believe that

:35:57.:36:02.

they and Arab countries are taking action legally and we support their

:36:03.:36:06.

action. But I understand your legitimate questions. But it comes

:36:07.:36:13.

back to your basic question, why in Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless, it

:36:14.:36:19.

is important to take action in Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria

:36:20.:36:24.

in building up the political strength of the more moderate

:36:25.:36:30.

opposition and in trying to bring about a peace agreement, and we do

:36:31.:36:34.

not exclude action in Syria in the future. If we propose doing

:36:35.:36:41.

something, then we ask for the specific legal advice. Why would you

:36:42.:36:46.

not ask for the legal advice anyway? Because you have to be sure

:36:47.:36:51.

of the legal advice at the time, and also we do not comment on the advice

:36:52.:36:55.

given to us by the Law officers. Mr Blair ended up publishing his. That

:36:56.:37:00.

was because there was a huge legal dispute. So you have not had legal

:37:01.:37:04.

advice yet that Britain attacking Syria would be legal? The legal

:37:05.:37:09.

situation is unlikely to be the barrier in this case, let me put it

:37:10.:37:13.

that way. Within international law, you can act in the event of extreme

:37:14.:37:23.

humanitarian distress and elective self-defence, so one can imagine

:37:24.:37:26.

strong legal justification, but of course, we will take the legal

:37:27.:37:27.

advice at the time. watching The Sunday Politics. We say

:37:28.:37:29.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who Scotland. Coming up here in 20

:37:30.:37:34.

minutes, The Week Ahead. Is it time for us to get

:37:35.:37:45.

closer to the West Midlands? Politicians want better links,

:37:46.:37:49.

but do you? Someone's come up with the hdea of

:37:50.:37:51.

joining forces, the East and West Midlands together, in order to get

:37:52.:37:54.

more money from central govdrnment. And the region's Conservatives are

:37:55.:37:57.

gathering in Birmingham for their annual party confdrence

:37:58.:38:03.

and our political editor, On any normal Sunday morning,

:38:04.:38:06.

George Clooney's wedding wotld dominate the front pages but not

:38:07.:38:10.

today because the front pagds and the inside pages are dolinated

:38:11.:38:13.

by the latest Tory difficulties A defection to UKIP

:38:14.:38:16.

and minister's resignation, so what do Conservatives

:38:17.:38:26.

from the East Midlands make of it all as they gather in Birmingham

:38:27.:38:29.

for the annual conference? Hello, I'm Marie Ashby

:38:30.:38:31.

and my guests this week, Frdsh from his party's annual conference, which

:38:32.:38:34.

has grabbed a few headlines, is UKIP's Roger Helmer, a European MP

:38:35.:38:36.

for his party in the East Mhdlands. He's joined by Issan Gazhni

:38:37.:38:39.

from the Liberal Democrats. He's chair of the party in the

:38:40.:38:42.

East Midlands. And if you're

:38:43.:38:44.

following the programme on Twitter and seeing a lot

:38:45.:38:49.

of references to the Great British Bake Off that's probably because in

:38:50.:38:52.

the director's gallery todax we ve He's tweeting his thoughts

:38:53.:38:54.

on the show so far and the rest So, Roger, obviously you've come

:38:55.:38:59.

away from your conference btoyed up by the defection of Consdrvative

:39:00.:39:17.

MP Mark Reckless to UKIP. The obvious question,

:39:18.:39:19.

have you got your eye on anx If I had, I wouldn't tell you but,

:39:20.:39:29.

honestly, I haven't. I am not at the top of the party. I can't comment on

:39:30.:39:34.

that but I can comment on the conference. It must've been to about

:39:35.:39:38.

20 of them in my political career. I have never seen one so

:39:39.:39:42.

enthusiastic, so electrified, so determined to make progress. It was

:39:43.:39:48.

going extremely well up unthl 2 0 yesterday, when Mark Reckless

:39:49.:39:53.

arrived. The thing exploded and others like someone had won the

:39:54.:39:56.

football cup. Mark Spencer, the Sherwood LP,

:39:57.:39:57.

retweeted a tweet yesterday in which someone said they had a fiver

:39:58.:40:00.

on him being the next Tory to go. Well, knowing Mark Spencer,

:40:01.:40:03.

we're pretty sure he's joking. But really,

:40:04.:40:05.

outside of the European elections, you haven't made much of an impact

:40:06.:40:07.

in the East Midlands, have xou? Well, if you look at the European

:40:08.:40:18.

election results in Skegness, for example, we polled more than 50 of

:40:19.:40:23.

the vote and recent opinion polls I have seen out of the constituency

:40:24.:40:27.

shows that we are in with an extremely strong chance of winning

:40:28.:40:31.

that seat. So we think we'rd going to be making progress. Therd are

:40:32.:40:34.

other seeds, of course, we be targeting. Everybody said, OK, you

:40:35.:40:40.

got the European election and that UKIP, it will fade away by the

:40:41.:40:43.

general election. It isn't. We are on a roll.

:40:44.:40:46.

And, Issan, as far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned

:40:47.:40:48.

in the East Midlands you're almost spectators with the big fights

:40:49.:40:51.

between the Conservatives and UKIP and Labour and the Conservatives.

:40:52.:40:53.

Yes, I mean, we are very active on the ground. We have local

:40:54.:41:10.

councillors and control somd local authorities. The odds are stacked

:41:11.:41:16.

against you, aren't they? That's the nature of the game. We are hn

:41:17.:41:21.

coalition and parties in co`lition of traditionally had a tough it s no

:41:22.:41:25.

different in our situation. It's a temporary setback. It is a blip and

:41:26.:41:32.

I'm confident we will recovdr. When we are knocking on doors in the East

:41:33.:41:35.

Midlands we're getting a positive response because the economx is

:41:36.:41:39.

recovering. And the austerity people had to go through is now showing

:41:40.:41:42.

signs of coming back. Let's hear from the Conserv`tives

:41:43.:41:48.

then. They are gathering

:41:49.:41:49.

for their annual party confdrence in Birmingham and our polithcal

:41:50.:41:51.

editor, John Hess is there. He's been talking to a couple of

:41:52.:41:53.

senior party members this morning. Well, Marie,

:41:54.:41:56.

it's a lovely sunny Sunday lorning The Town Hall and the Counchl House

:41:57.:41:58.

behind me but there's a dark political cloud over the st`rt

:41:59.:42:02.

of this Conservative conferdnce in Birmingham and that's because of the

:42:03.:42:05.

resignation of a government minister and of course the defection to UKIP

:42:06.:42:07.

by MP Mark Reckless so, to what extent could that trouble the

:42:08.:42:11.

Conservatives and their conference? Let's get the view of some senior

:42:12.:42:13.

East Midlands Conservatives here. Maggie hopes to be the next

:42:14.:42:17.

Conservative MP for Erewash and Neil Clark, the leader of the Cotncil in

:42:18.:42:20.

Nottinghamshire and an infltential Maggie, can I come to you fhrst

:42:21.:42:22.

because this isn't the exact start It's not going to detract

:42:23.:42:28.

from our conference at all. We know that only a Conserv`tive

:42:29.:42:33.

government can deliver There must be sympathy in the

:42:34.:42:36.

Conservative Association for UKIP I don't think there's much sympathy

:42:37.:42:44.

because It's starting to make

:42:45.:42:47.

a difference in Erewash On the UKIP issue, there's ` survey

:42:48.:42:51.

this morning by Sunday Politics which says the vast majoritx of Tory

:42:52.:42:58.

county councillors and district councillors would like some form

:42:59.:43:01.

of electoral pact with UKIP. I think that's something

:43:02.:43:05.

really to talk about later. What's really important is

:43:06.:43:10.

the Conservatives put We've got a lot of good news and,

:43:11.:43:12.

as Maggie has said, we have the guarantee of a referendtm

:43:13.:43:18.

and it's important that people vote Conservative because if thex vote

:43:19.:43:21.

for UKIP, they will let Labour in and we want to keep going whth

:43:22.:43:25.

our Conservative message. But you must be concerned

:43:26.:43:29.

about UKIP? Are they poaching Tory councillors

:43:30.:43:31.

even in the East Midlands? Obviously they are a concern,

:43:32.:43:35.

just like all opposition parties are a concern but we will continue to

:43:36.:43:38.

put our positive messages across. Maggie,

:43:39.:43:43.

what do you need to hear from David Cameron this week which would get

:43:44.:43:47.

the Tories re`elected in a highly We've seen in the last couple

:43:48.:43:50.

of years, with our plan, th`t we are making products again and that

:43:51.:43:57.

is seen across the East Midlands with Bombardier and Rolls Royce

:43:58.:44:01.

manufacturing, making products. We've seen that with Erewash

:44:02.:44:05.

specialist manufacturers. Clooney Lace, Tech`Quipment

:44:06.:44:10.

and it's utterly good news. Are people seeing the benefhts

:44:11.:44:13.

of this revival? One message that has alreadx gone

:44:14.:44:15.

out is we are committing to three million more apprentices

:44:16.:44:22.

in the next government. That has got to be good news

:44:23.:44:25.

for people in Erewash. There is bound to be some bhg policy

:44:26.:44:32.

announcement from the government What do you think is in it

:44:33.:44:37.

for English local government? We have got to make sure th`t we

:44:38.:44:41.

don't create a bureaucracy that s We need to be ensuring

:44:42.:44:45.

the government gives us those powers Even for Borough councils

:44:46.:44:53.

like yours? Borough councils, county cotncils,

:44:54.:44:57.

we need to be together. I encourage councils to

:44:58.:45:01.

work closely together. If we are given the opportunity

:45:02.:45:04.

by the government to work closely together with more powers to make

:45:05.:45:07.

collective decisions, No, because we need to ensure that

:45:08.:45:09.

councils still maintain their sovereignty

:45:10.:45:18.

but that doesn't stop them working very closely together and ddlivering

:45:19.:45:20.

services for each other. OK, Maggie, a good week

:45:21.:45:25.

for the Conservatives this week A very good week

:45:26.:45:27.

for the Conservatives, continuing to get our message

:45:28.:45:29.

across that we are delivering a long`term economic plan for

:45:30.:45:31.

the hard`working people of Drewash. The main message from Grant Shapps,

:45:32.:45:35.

the chairman of the Conserv`tives, when this conference opens this

:45:36.:45:41.

morning, will be securing They talk about the revival of the

:45:42.:46:02.

economy. Behind those headlhnes of defections, the economy is hmproving

:46:03.:46:04.

quickly and they will benefht from that. The economy is improvhng and

:46:05.:46:10.

it's taken a long time. Thex are not getting the deficit down, btt you

:46:11.:46:13.

referred to the confident mdssages. They are whistling in the whnd. I

:46:14.:46:18.

want to pick up the point only a Conservative government would give

:46:19.:46:22.

you a referendum. As Mark Rdckless said yesterday, David Cameron is

:46:23.:46:26.

using this promise of a refdrendum and a renegotiation to kick the

:46:27.:46:29.

issue of Europe into the long grass till after the general election I

:46:30.:46:33.

have been in Brussels for 14 years, I know there is no renegoti`tion

:46:34.:46:37.

going to happen. He will cole back, just like Harold Wilson did, with

:46:38.:46:41.

some cosmetic changes and, on the back of that, he will ask the

:46:42.:46:46.

British people to vote to stay in. That's not what we want. Nehll clerk

:46:47.:46:51.

say if people vote for UKIP it's a way of letting Labour in. Absolutely

:46:52.:46:57.

not. At the beginning of UKHP, we tended to take more support from the

:46:58.:47:01.

Conservatives than Labour. We've just had our conference in Labour

:47:02.:47:08.

heartland in Doncaster. Look at the results in northern constittencies.

:47:09.:47:11.

We are taking support across`the`board. The idea we are

:47:12.:47:15.

only taking support from thd Conservatives is absurd. Yot have

:47:16.:47:18.

your party conference next week Will you be announcing any

:47:19.:47:24.

defections? No, but we will be announcing is a strategy, in

:47:25.:47:32.

particular our environmental policy, a new 5`point plan which will be

:47:33.:47:37.

coming out very shortly. And that will address issues very important.

:47:38.:47:42.

Is that the way to carve out a role in the East Midlands for yotrself?

:47:43.:47:49.

Do you think that's the way forward? No, environmental issues is one set

:47:50.:47:52.

of policies but we will also be talking about how to manage the

:47:53.:47:55.

economy, we have worked effdctively with the coalition and I thhnk it's

:47:56.:48:00.

been excellent because of Lhb Dem involvement. Do you take crddit for

:48:01.:48:06.

the way the economy is improving? Yes, because we'd been very careful

:48:07.:48:09.

making sure the austerity mdasures have been implemented in a fair way.

:48:10.:48:15.

We have kept control of somd of the Tory accesses and we do takd credit

:48:16.:48:20.

for that. We heard that you can have been contacting conservativd

:48:21.:48:25.

councillors in Charnwood bulls are you speaking to other Conservative

:48:26.:48:30.

councillors? Not personally. Is the party? As a party, we are h`ppy to

:48:31.:48:36.

talk to Labour and Conservative councillors, and again, I stress,

:48:37.:48:43.

we're getting support from lots of Labour supporters. Our chairman of

:48:44.:48:46.

the former Labour councillor so I reject the premise of your puestion

:48:47.:48:49.

that we would only be talking to Conservatives. We are keen to talk

:48:50.:48:56.

to people across`the`board, we are not right or left but common sense.

:48:57.:49:02.

Rumours today the third, another Tory MP about to defect. Wh`t is up

:49:03.:49:06.

your sleeve? Honest, hand on heart, I do not know. One of the great

:49:07.:49:14.

things about Nigel Farage is he will conduct these negotiations

:49:15.:49:18.

personally and he is absolutely meticulous and keeping them secret

:49:19.:49:20.

and that's why people are prepared to talk to us. Frankly, if the

:49:21.:49:25.

Conservative or Labour MP c`me to talk to UKIP, and we tell the top

:49:26.:49:29.

ten people in the party, it would be in the Daily Mail tomorrow. Nobody

:49:30.:49:32.

would come full that they come because they know it will bd treated

:49:33.:49:37.

in absolute confidence. UKIP recently is made some stridds, and

:49:38.:49:41.

we can see, it's obviously come you can't ignore them at this moment but

:49:42.:49:46.

I do believe it is short`term and I don't believe it's a long`tdrm

:49:47.:49:51.

issue. The biggest threat UKIP places is to the Conservative Party

:49:52.:49:54.

and I do think David Cameron is extremely worried about the impact

:49:55.:49:58.

of losses for the Conservathve Party and I don't agree that your

:49:59.:50:04.

impact... The Lib Dems aren't as worried? Agro blew our voters would

:50:05.:50:14.

not vote for UKIP. `` our voters would not vote for UKIP. We have got

:50:15.:50:22.

Lib Dem people voting us. There s not such a big group are thdre to

:50:23.:50:23.

join us. Now, is it time to cuddle up to our

:50:24.:50:27.

neighbours in the West Midl`nds This week's Labour conference saw

:50:28.:50:30.

the launch of Midlands Conndct, an attempt to build closer ties between

:50:31.:50:34.

the two sides of the region. At the moment,

:50:35.:50:37.

the Midlands can feel split in two, dissected by motorways and rail

:50:38.:50:40.

lines all heading north to south. The plan will be to bring the East

:50:41.:50:42.

and West closer together and to encourage better links betwden

:50:43.:50:46.

cities on both sides of the divide. Well, we

:50:47.:50:48.

like to think we got there first. Two weeks ago we were discussing,

:50:49.:50:50.

slightly tongue in cheek, the prospects of an independent

:50:51.:50:53.

Mercia and imagining what a Midlands We even worked out we could have

:50:54.:50:55.

a King Gary Lineker and a And, of course,

:50:56.:51:02.

our coins would be the medidval But there is

:51:03.:51:05.

of course a serious side to this. With the fear that more powdr for

:51:06.:51:12.

local authorities could see more money going over our heads from

:51:13.:51:15.

Whitehall to the north of England. So what do you think,

:51:16.:51:18.

is it time we joined forces to fight Are they for closer links whth

:51:19.:51:21.

the West Midlands or do thex simply What do you think of the idda

:51:22.:51:34.

of the East and West Midlands joining up in order to get lore

:51:35.:51:39.

money from central government? We are not going to get bendfit

:51:40.:51:42.

from it, do you know what I mean? Someone's come up with the hdea of

:51:43.:51:52.

joining forces, the East and West Midlands together, in order to get

:51:53.:51:56.

more money from central govdrnment. To unite the East and West Lidlands

:51:57.:51:59.

in order to get more money from central government,

:52:00.:52:09.

is that a good idea? If we do get extra money

:52:10.:52:12.

and it helps both sides, ye`h, it's As long

:52:13.:52:16.

as the money does get spent on both Don't you think they are separate

:52:17.:52:21.

entities, the East and the West Midlands,

:52:22.:52:27.

and they should remain that way Well, in the old days, we wdre part

:52:28.:52:33.

of the kingdom of Murcia and they were united, but I know, I hear what

:52:34.:52:37.

you're saying, you're right. But people may be pragmatic

:52:38.:52:41.

if that will get some money out East and West Midlands unitdd to get

:52:42.:52:48.

more money from central govdrnment, The East Midlands has always

:52:49.:52:52.

been very, very strong. We've got some marvellous

:52:53.:52:59.

countryside, some marvellous cities. We don't really want to be

:53:00.:53:04.

tarred with the West Midlands. Joining us to discuss all that is

:53:05.:53:06.

Anne Western, the Labour le`der of Derbyshire County Council who was

:53:07.:53:18.

at the launch of Midlands Connect. Tell us first of all what

:53:19.:53:21.

Midlands Connect is. It sounds a good bus servicd. It's

:53:22.:53:31.

about the Midlands coming together and speaking with one louder voice.

:53:32.:53:37.

We are at an interesting st`ge in terms of English politics. We've

:53:38.:53:41.

seen the Scottish referendul on a huge demand for something dhfferent

:53:42.:53:44.

in Scotland and I think people in England are asking those qudstions

:53:45.:53:49.

as well. How do we pull powdrs from London and the south`east and bring

:53:50.:53:53.

it to the places where we lhve? We see a strong south`east economy the

:53:54.:53:58.

northern cities starting to work together to argue for the North

:53:59.:54:03.

It's our time and is not about giving anything up, forming any new

:54:04.:54:08.

bureaucracy, it's just about the councils and the communities across

:54:09.:54:11.

the East and West Midlands speaking with a louder voice and argting for

:54:12.:54:15.

greater transport links across East and West to join our economx. There

:54:16.:54:22.

was some scepticism and people said pigs might fly. Is this somdthing

:54:23.:54:27.

which might get off the grotnd? I think it's the right time for this

:54:28.:54:32.

sort of idea. If we don't do this, we would get left behind and become

:54:33.:54:36.

the empty space between London and the south`east and the North. I m

:54:37.:54:40.

very proud of what we have got an East Midlands particular prhde in

:54:41.:54:43.

what we got in Derbyshire and I don't want to compromise for anybody

:54:44.:54:46.

but it's about working with other partners so we can get our lessage

:54:47.:54:51.

across. The East Midlands ndver had its fair share of resources. Is this

:54:52.:54:59.

a good idea? It's cosmetic. I think transport, Camilla K Schnitzer to

:55:00.:55:03.

come is important anyway, and normal council business... Is councils more

:55:04.:55:13.

cosmetic? Transport? We need to look the regional assembly concept

:55:14.:55:15.

because I believe we need to be thinking regionally and working

:55:16.:55:21.

collectively for the isn't that what Annie is saying? Working together as

:55:22.:55:27.

regions? Agro blew she is w`lking about local authorities working

:55:28.:55:30.

cosmetically together for the that's not what I'm saying. People don t

:55:31.:55:34.

want more bureaucracy full survey don't want regional assemblhes. That

:55:35.:55:40.

debate is ten years old and they were not popular. It's about being

:55:41.:55:44.

pragmatic and about flexing our combined muscles a bit more. To make

:55:45.:55:50.

the argument to government that this sort of level of infrastructure

:55:51.:55:54.

funding we're talking about does not currently sit with councils. It sits

:55:55.:56:00.

in Whitehall and is divided by civil servants, most of whom don't know

:56:01.:56:04.

the regions. I think you will find the terms of reference have now

:56:05.:56:08.

changed post`Scottish referdndum so people will be looking at something

:56:09.:56:12.

a little bit more structural to reflect the power shift which has

:56:13.:56:16.

occurred the moment. What does help you in Europe? At the moment, we

:56:17.:56:22.

don't know exactly what it hs and what it's going to be but following

:56:23.:56:28.

the Scottish result, UKIP are saying yes, Scottish people devolution but

:56:29.:56:32.

we must have come at the sale time, a complete settlement for England

:56:33.:56:36.

and Wales and Northern Irel`nd and therefore, we ought to have a

:56:37.:56:39.

constitutional convention that would look at the whole situation. What is

:56:40.:56:45.

your view on that as the le`der of the campaign? While people `re doing

:56:46.:56:48.

what the finer points, the world is changing. `` arguing about the finer

:56:49.:56:56.

points. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle are

:56:57.:57:01.

working together now. They have got deals and are working together. The

:57:02.:57:05.

East Midlands is different, it's not dominated... This is fundamdntal,

:57:06.:57:11.

how central government shards it funding, and how it is allocated,

:57:12.:57:17.

who controls it. Back to thd Midlands connect idea. Isn't there a

:57:18.:57:21.

danger that the East Midlands could be swallowed up by the West Midlands

:57:22.:57:24.

with all the attention going to them? That's why you don't like the

:57:25.:57:33.

idea? I don't like the idea by think we should regional governments.

:57:34.:57:37.

There's no harm working across boundaries with the police, social

:57:38.:57:45.

services, the NHS, so public sector cooperation to get efficiencies of

:57:46.:57:48.

scale and better services, that s OK. But I think actually, wd should

:57:49.:57:52.

retain government is at a rdgional level. We need to know who will

:57:53.:57:57.

control it. It's fine to sax speak with one voice. How will it be

:57:58.:58:03.

democratically accountable? Until we have answers to those questhons we

:58:04.:58:10.

don't know. While we debate this, we need to be arguing for our own

:58:11.:58:16.

corner. Like the northern chties are doing full is if we sit back and

:58:17.:58:19.

wait for six months, till somebody tells us what we can do, thd moment

:58:20.:58:24.

would have gone. And we will have lost out. We need to understand what

:58:25.:58:30.

the proposal is. Democratic`lly elected councils are coming together

:58:31.:58:35.

to form combined authorities and organise ourselves in a way which

:58:36.:58:39.

works so we can take the message to government. What stage is this art?

:58:40.:58:47.

Its early stages. It's prim`rily about connectivity, transport links

:58:48.:58:51.

between West and East Midlands. We have strong links north and south

:58:52.:58:55.

with the M1, the rail links and we have not got good East and West

:58:56.:59:01.

links and that's what we nedd. We have not got HS2, by the wax. If we

:59:02.:59:08.

have our way, won't have it. That is the proposals. We have to ldave it

:59:09.:59:13.

there but thanks for making it clearer for us.

:59:14.:59:15.

Time for a round`up of some of the other political storhes

:59:16.:59:18.

The South Leicestershire MP Andrew Robathan has announced he is

:59:19.:59:23.

The former Northern Ireland Minister and Minister for State for the

:59:24.:59:27.

Armed Forces, who's 63, was an Army officer and had a spell in the SAS.

:59:28.:59:34.

This is a serious question about serious issues.

:59:35.:59:39.

We're used to seeing him as the ruthless inquisitor chairing

:59:40.:59:41.

Can I say, on behalf of this committee, that we have found

:59:42.:59:46.

But Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has been showing a softer side

:59:47.:59:52.

at the Labour conference, dancing Gangnam Style at a party

:59:53.:59:54.

An event he was happy to recreate for the Daily Politics show.

:59:55.:00:03.

And the Beast of Bolsover was showing

:00:04.:00:06.

Dennis Skinner signed copies of his autobiography, Sailing Close

:00:07.:00:09.

To The Wind, his memoirs of 44 years in the House of Commons.

:00:10.:00:15.

Apparently he sold 100 copids in one session.

:00:16.:00:32.

His dance moves will stay whth us, Keith Vaz.

:00:33.:00:36.

That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.

:00:37.:00:38.

My thanks to Roger Helmer and Issan Ghazni for being this week's guests.

:00:39.:00:39.

My thanks to you both. Andrew, back to you.

:00:40.:00:55.

Here we are back in Birmingham with the Conservatives. The Tories

:00:56.:01:03.

thought all they had to do was come here, have a rally, a jamboree, and

:01:04.:01:09.

off they go to the races, or in their case the general election Two

:01:10.:01:14.

races later it hasn't quite worked out like that. Let's look at the

:01:15.:01:20.

state of this conference as it gets under way. On our panel we are

:01:21.:01:26.

joined by David Davis. You wrote an article in the Mail on Sunday this

:01:27.:01:31.

morning which was an Exocet at the heart of David Cameron's modernising

:01:32.:01:38.

strategy. It was designed to act as a lever. It was designed to cause

:01:39.:01:44.

trouble. No, we are in the running for the next general election. One

:01:45.:01:48.

of the characteristics of having a five year fixed term Parliaments is

:01:49.:01:53.

that the last year is about campaigning. It is important we beat

:01:54.:01:57.

Miliband, he would be a disastrous Prime Minister. You think the whole

:01:58.:02:03.

modernising strategy was a wrong turn, that is what the article said.

:02:04.:02:12.

Yes. Has that opened the door to UKIP? It has left a lot of people

:02:13.:02:31.

disillusioned with politics. What do you do to get it right? Who was

:02:32.:02:34.

listening to you? Frankly we need to take a more

:02:35.:03:09.

robust series of policies. How many more UKIP defections will there be?

:03:10.:03:13.

I do not think there will be any more. I would be very surprised I

:03:14.:03:22.

know Nigel Farage has a brilliant sense of timing, but I do not think

:03:23.:03:26.

he has got the resources to do that, namely, another Tory MP. So it could

:03:27.:03:32.

be another Labour one, maybe? I think an awful lot will hinge on

:03:33.:03:38.

what happens in Rochester. Because that is not a slam dunk. Clack and

:03:39.:03:43.

unfortunately looks like it will be a walkover for them. But Rochester

:03:44.:03:55.

is a different scene. And so, there could be a kind of Newark situation.

:03:56.:04:01.

When I campaigned in Newark, two labour families I spoke to said they

:04:02.:04:06.

would vote Tory to keep UKIP out. How bad was the Labour conference

:04:07.:04:12.

last week? One politician said after he had a really bad performance that

:04:13.:04:16.

his television performance was suboptimal. I think that would be a

:04:17.:04:21.

good way of describing Ed Miliband's speech. The problem for

:04:22.:04:25.

Ed Miliband in memorising speeches is that we are not auditioning for a

:04:26.:04:28.

new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing for Prime Minister. He failed the

:04:29.:04:34.

Laurence Olivier test, and therefore failed the Prime Minister test. I

:04:35.:04:37.

think the real problem for him was forgetting to mention the deficit.

:04:38.:04:41.

He spoke from the heart about issues which she really cares about, the

:04:42.:04:46.

NHS, the rupture between wages and inflation, and forgot the deficit.

:04:47.:04:50.

Those issues are important, but if you are not addressing things like

:04:51.:04:53.

the deficit, then people are really not going to be listening to your

:04:54.:04:58.

messages on the areas that matter. Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am

:04:59.:05:06.

afraid. I hope that this ends the nonsense of leaders wasting their

:05:07.:05:09.

time learning speeches off by heart. You could learn a Shakespeare

:05:10.:05:13.

play in the time it takes to learn 70 minutes of a leader's speech I

:05:14.:05:18.

think we should just go back to sensible reading what you have

:05:19.:05:22.

written. You can then alter it just beforehand. A lot of things were

:05:23.:05:26.

changing, which is not surprising, but he did not have time to learn

:05:27.:05:31.

it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked once or twice, but that is enough

:05:32.:05:35.

for that. Despite some of the derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories

:05:36.:05:38.

are flat-lining in the sun decks, they have been there almost since

:05:39.:05:42.

the disastrous budget, the omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is

:05:43.:05:48.

still several points ahead, nothing seems to change? And David Cameron

:05:49.:05:53.

is now the leader in trouble. It is almost as if a week is a long time

:05:54.:05:57.

in politics. I thought the Labour and friends was Saab --

:05:58.:06:04.

sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial. You could've watched the top

:06:05.:06:10.

speeches without knowing that the borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and

:06:11.:06:15.

Syria were in question. I hope, because of Friday's discussion in

:06:16.:06:18.

Parliament, that this conference will raise its sights a bit, and we

:06:19.:06:23.

will have something in Cameron's speech, possibly that of George

:06:24.:06:27.

Osborne as well, which is a bit more global. People hoped UKIP had gone

:06:28.:06:32.

away during the summer, people at this conference, I mean, but it is

:06:33.:06:39.

back with a bang. They are still up at 15% in the polls, the Tories

:06:40.:06:43.

languishing on 32 - what is going to change? UKIP won 3% of the last

:06:44.:06:48.

election, I always thought they would get about 6%. If, by the turn

:06:49.:06:56.

of the year, they are still in double digits, I think at that point

:06:57.:07:01.

you can begin to wake of his party's chances of winning. I have

:07:02.:07:06.

had three people say to me so far, come election day, it will be fine,

:07:07.:07:10.

people will sober up and so on. It will be all right on the night is

:07:11.:07:14.

not a very good strategy, frankly. When they get past 5%, I start to

:07:15.:07:22.

bite into our 3-way marginal seats, with liberals, Labour and Tories,

:07:23.:07:26.

and we have got about 60 of those in the Midlands and the north, so it

:07:27.:07:31.

really is quite serious. And if I may steal one of David's lines, when

:07:32.:07:35.

you were interviewing Mark Reckless this morning, and was not talking

:07:36.:07:40.

about the EU referendum, he was talking about how he felt he had

:07:41.:07:44.

broken his pledges to the electorate because the Conservatives he said

:07:45.:07:47.

had failed on immigration and on the deficit, and those sort of

:07:48.:07:50.

bread-and-butter issues could be really potent on the doorstep, which

:07:51.:07:54.

means the Tories have got to run the kind of campaign they ran in Newark,

:07:55.:07:57.

which is a real centre ground, Reddan but a campaign, in which they

:07:58.:08:02.

would hope to get Liberal Democrat and Labour voters out to vote

:08:03.:08:07.

tactically against UKIP. I think today we have seen Cameron been

:08:08.:08:12.

pushed to the right. He has had to say, yes, I would leave Europe,

:08:13.:08:16.

which he has never said before. It is a huge stepping stone, a big

:08:17.:08:20.

difference. It takes the Tory party somewhere else. May be get them a

:08:21.:08:27.

lot of votes. But it has not so far. But I think it loses a lot of

:08:28.:08:33.

people. The industry organisations, for example. The prospect of going

:08:34.:08:37.

out of Europe, but is quite a fight for them. Is it not the lesson that

:08:38.:08:43.

you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do not need to, really. I agree, last

:08:44.:08:53.

week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold on, that is enough subs! I would not

:08:54.:09:02.

be crowing too much! But what I was going to say, he left out something

:09:03.:09:08.

incredibly important, the deficit. But how many people outside the M25

:09:09.:09:13.

are thinking about the deficit? One problem we face with Miliband is, he

:09:14.:09:17.

is good at politics and bad at economics, in a way. He comes up

:09:18.:09:22.

with bonkers policies which people love, price-fixing, things like

:09:23.:09:26.

that. Our problem will be about relevance on the doorstep. I do not

:09:27.:09:31.

think at the end of the day it will be about Europe. But was there not a

:09:32.:09:36.

moment of danger for you at the conference, that one area where

:09:37.:09:38.

Miliband is potentially vulnerable is not having credible team with

:09:39.:09:42.

business. Who turned up at the Labour conference, the head of

:09:43.:09:46.

Airbus, saying, we have got to stay in the European Union? The danger is

:09:47.:09:51.

that Europe allows the Labour Party to gain credibility with business.

:09:52.:09:59.

There is some truth in that. But we are in effectively the home

:10:00.:10:03.

straight, the last six months, and people will be fussing about prices

:10:04.:10:08.

and jobs. Very parochial. They will not be saying, what does the CBI

:10:09.:10:12.

think about this? It is, what is happening to me, in my town, in my

:10:13.:10:17.

factory, in my office. That is where the fight will be. Is it not the

:10:18.:10:26.

truth that if UKIP stays anywhere near around this level of support,

:10:27.:10:30.

it is impossible for the Tories to win an overall majority? I would

:10:31.:10:34.

say, if it is this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to

:10:35.:10:38.

finish as the biggest party, even in a hung Parliament. The Tories keep

:10:39.:10:43.

trying to win back UKIP voters with cold logic - witches it makes Ed

:10:44.:10:47.

Miliband becoming prime minister more likely. UKIP is basically a

:10:48.:10:53.

vessel phenomenon, coming from the gut, and David Cameron has never

:10:54.:10:57.

found the emotional pitch in his rhetoric to meet that. I wonder

:10:58.:11:00.

whether we will see that moron Wednesday. It is just not him. I

:11:01.:11:11.

hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I hope you're right that we do

:11:12.:11:16.

actually engage on emotion. So far with UKIP, our policy has been to

:11:17.:11:22.

insult them. It does not work. I know that from my constituency. We

:11:23.:11:26.

have to say to them, there is a wider Tory family, we understand you

:11:27.:11:29.

are patria, we understand you are worried about your family, and we do

:11:30.:11:35.

the same. What does it tell us about the state of the Tories, seven

:11:36.:11:38.

months from the election, the economy is going well, they are not

:11:39.:11:41.

that far behind Labour, and yet there is all sorts of leadership

:11:42.:11:46.

speculation? It is extraordinary. They are doing well, they are in

:11:47.:11:49.

with a shout. It depends. UKIP has to be kept below 9% of. -- below

:11:50.:12:02.

9%. I think David Cameron is one of the few who speaks human, actually

:12:03.:12:06.

talks quite well to people and does not look like a swivel-eyed loons.

:12:07.:12:09.

Whereas a lot of people behind him do. You look at Duncan Smith and

:12:10.:12:14.

Eric Pickles, they are all kind of driven, ideological men, with very

:12:15.:12:19.

right-wing policies. And nice people! Don't hold back! He is not

:12:20.:12:27.

the Addams family, he is basically quite human. I think a lot of people

:12:28.:12:33.

do not realise how ideological he is himself and how well he has led his

:12:34.:12:36.

party in the direction they all want to go. You go on about him being

:12:37.:12:41.

this metropolitan moderniser, I do not think that is what he is,

:12:42.:12:46.

really. It may not be visible from the guardian offices in the

:12:47.:12:50.

metropolis! Everybody where you are, Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser.

:12:51.:12:56.

And where you are, too. That is the nature of living in London. The

:12:57.:13:00.

trouble is, when these people get into Westminster, they are part of

:13:01.:13:03.

Westminster, too. If you could only win by being an outsider, the moment

:13:04.:13:09.

you get in, you are done for. All teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson

:13:10.:13:12.

to be the next leader? I do not think so! The point of my Exocet, or

:13:13.:13:22.

lever, this morning, is that I think this is winnable. If we are good

:13:23.:13:26.

Tories for the next six months, we can do this. It is by denying ground

:13:27.:13:31.

to UKIP, not giving in to them, not buckling. Denying ground. Thank you

:13:32.:13:37.

to our panel. They did all right today, but the normal. That is your

:13:38.:13:41.

lot for today. I am back tomorrow. We will have live coverage of George

:13:42.:13:46.

Osborne's speech to the conference. I am back next week in Glasgow for

:13:47.:13:50.

The Sunday Politics at the Labour conference. How could you miss

:13:51.:13:55.

that? Remember, if it is Sunday it is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye

:13:56.:14:24.

of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.

:14:25.:14:39.

I think I've overdone it with the pistachios

:14:40.:14:42.

and somehow, the custard's split, but it's too late!

:14:43.:14:45.

of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.

:14:46.:14:56.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS