21/09/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


21/09/2014

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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:08.:00:11.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

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the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:15.:00:52.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north

:00:53.:00:58.

But what about Home Rule for England?

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Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:06.:01:10.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

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In the East Midlands: people who want to be

:01:16.:01:21.

The councils now calling for more powers from Westminster.

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And the report which says we have three of the most

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powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step

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for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

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business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

:01:53.:01:58.

other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

:01:59.:02:03.

but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

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enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

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it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

:02:11.:02:16.

of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

:02:17.:02:20.

the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:21.:02:31.

has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

:02:32.:02:34.

they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only

:02:35.:02:40.

votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

:02:41.:02:44.

justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

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House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -

:02:48.:02:56.

cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

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Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:00.:03:03.

Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

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Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

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and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

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They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

:03:21.:03:27.

Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

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a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:37.:03:39.

ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

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knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

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draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

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had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

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these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

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don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

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is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

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the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

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overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

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Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

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whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

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would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

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either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

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Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

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this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

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shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

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morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

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English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

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in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

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announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

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Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

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Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

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handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

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Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

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backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

:05:28.:05:29.

in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

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think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

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partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

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course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

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and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

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Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

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sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

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one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

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to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

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and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

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Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

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but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

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the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

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Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

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because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

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in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

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aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

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Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

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can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

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about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

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are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

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of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

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wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

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should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

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the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

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Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

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prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

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staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

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more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

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than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

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poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

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they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

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Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

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the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

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politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

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rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

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leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

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all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

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Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

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counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

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voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

:08:13.:08:17.

proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

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said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

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on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

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pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

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the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

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Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

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standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

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unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

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unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

:08:55.:09:00.

gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London

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Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There

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is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.

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Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year

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revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5

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billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer

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investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a

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more federal system, we would need to look at things like the

:09:36.:09:39.

allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted

:09:40.:09:43.

as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party

:09:44.:09:47.

architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so

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it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to

:09:53.:09:56.

the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs

:09:57.:10:00.

basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of

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Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his

:10:06.:10:09.

promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English

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votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he

:10:13.:10:16.

made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked

:10:17.:10:20.

on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots

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of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at

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this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find

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that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot

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just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for

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all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more

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devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,

:10:48.:10:51.

and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

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leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

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The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

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the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

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Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

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another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

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Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

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In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

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but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

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The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

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Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

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screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

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high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

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other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

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enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

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papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000

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and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

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first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

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Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

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sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

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small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

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applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

:12:40.:12:45.

their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

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independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

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tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

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refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

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place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

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establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

:13:08.:13:12.

referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

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establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

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But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

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called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The

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result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the

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official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen

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three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as

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the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south

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as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if

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it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote

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separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,

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spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern

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Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take

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place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.

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It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See

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you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be

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another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There

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was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,

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his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the

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Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,

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the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader

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gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as

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First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last

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night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if

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it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I

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certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the

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referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...

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Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally

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made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the

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decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you

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get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real

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possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion

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but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of

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the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are

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the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my

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judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the

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National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.

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In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day

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approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought

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for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real

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chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the

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decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,

:16:43.:16:48.

the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from

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Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the

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offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across

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to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get

:17:00.:17:03.

something anyway without the perceived risks that were being

:17:04.:17:10.

festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.

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You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more

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power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is

:17:23.:17:28.

a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part

:17:29.:17:33.

of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire

:17:34.:17:36.

wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to

:17:37.:17:42.

be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see

:17:43.:17:46.

that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There

:17:47.:17:51.

are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the

:17:52.:17:55.

party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24

:17:56.:18:01.

years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many

:18:02.:18:05.

able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will

:18:06.:18:09.

do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take

:18:10.:18:16.

this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is

:18:17.:18:20.

developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that

:18:21.:18:23.

lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won

:18:24.:18:30.

end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days

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before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would

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change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There

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are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as

:18:45.:18:50.

a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will

:18:51.:18:55.

leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before

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Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I

:19:00.:19:03.

would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary

:19:04.:19:07.

campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving

:19:08.:19:11.

the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like

:19:12.:19:16.

of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon

:19:17.:19:19.

of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far

:19:20.:19:25.

almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you

:19:26.:19:36.

would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and

:19:37.:19:44.

pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him

:19:45.:19:48.

that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.

:19:49.:19:55.

The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was

:19:56.:19:59.

extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in

:20:00.:20:04.

the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair

:20:05.:20:12.

kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line

:20:13.:20:16.

and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish

:20:17.:20:19.

Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,

:20:20.:20:26.

certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in

:20:27.:20:35.

Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum

:20:36.:20:40.

wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that

:20:41.:20:46.

still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal

:20:47.:20:50.

view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK

:20:51.:20:55.

moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of

:20:56.:20:58.

circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

:20:59.:21:02.

I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:03.:21:08.

just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:09.:21:11.

shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:12.:21:17.

You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:18.:21:21.

essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:22.:21:26.

to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:27.:21:29.

because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:30.:21:34.

and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:35.:21:37.

frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:38.:21:40.

in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:41.:21:46.

irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:47.:21:52.

movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:53.:21:55.

cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:21:56.:21:57.

think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:21:58.:22:04.

was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:05.:22:09.

effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:10.:22:15.

David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:16.:22:21.

the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:22.:22:28.

matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:29.:22:34.

advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:35.:22:40.

her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:41.:22:47.

brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:48.:22:52.

favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:22:53.:22:58.

since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:22:59.:23:01.

the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:02.:23:14.

for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:15.:23:17.

repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:18.:23:24.

Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of

:23:25.:23:27.

Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:28.:23:34.

substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:35.:23:38.

head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:39.:23:46.

line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:47.:23:54.

seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:23:55.:23:57.

Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:23:58.:24:02.

What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:03.:24:09.

dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:10.:24:13.

to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:14.:24:18.

constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:19.:24:21.

politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do

:24:22.:24:25.

it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:26.:24:31.

from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:32.:24:34.

feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:35.:24:38.

people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:39.:24:43.

Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes

:24:44.:24:55.

Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the

:24:56.:25:02.

independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general

:25:03.:25:06.

election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be

:25:07.:25:12.

talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men

:25:13.:25:16.

and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday

:25:17.:25:21.

Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the

:25:22.:25:26.

Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates

:25:27.:25:28.

say that the level of public spending during their last period of

:25:29.:25:33.

office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise

:25:34.:25:37.

taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On

:25:38.:25:42.

immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too

:25:43.:25:47.

high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates

:25:48.:25:51.

believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.

:25:52.:25:55.

Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the

:25:56.:26:00.

candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in

:26:01.:26:04.

five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change

:26:05.:26:09.

of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came

:26:10.:26:18.

in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.

:26:19.:26:22.

Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think

:26:23.:26:29.

I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't

:26:30.:26:32.

think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I

:26:33.:26:37.

think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:38.:26:41.

of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:42.:26:44.

generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:45.:26:47.

viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:48.:26:52.

can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:53.:26:56.

public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:26:57.:27:00.

to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:01.:27:02.

don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:03.:27:06.

Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:07.:27:11.

policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:12.:27:15.

policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:16.:27:19.

?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:20.:27:21.

enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:22.:27:30.

to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:31.:27:33.

about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:34.:27:37.

yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:38.:27:40.

take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:41.:27:45.

nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:46.:27:48.

think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:49.:27:54.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:55.:28:00.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:01.:28:03.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:04.:28:08.

that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t

:28:09.:28:12.

think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:13.:28:16.

heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:17.:28:21.

radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It

:28:22.:28:24.

isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will

:28:25.:28:34.

have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general

:28:35.:28:38.

election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.

:28:39.:28:43.

I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They

:28:44.:28:49.

are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a

:28:50.:28:52.

small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's

:28:53.:28:56.

pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or

:28:57.:29:01.

wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour

:29:02.:29:05.

is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old

:29:06.:29:13.

or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great

:29:14.:29:16.

country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can

:29:17.:29:21.

achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are

:29:22.:29:25.

not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of

:29:26.:29:28.

their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.

:29:29.:29:32.

Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we

:29:33.:29:36.

are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you

:29:37.:29:39.

want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between

:29:40.:29:42.

Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next

:29:43.:29:53.

government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that

:29:54.:29:55.

the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them

:29:56.:29:58.

think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.

:29:59.:30:02.

Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly

:30:03.:30:08.

representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member

:30:09.:30:12.

of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here

:30:13.:30:14.

to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.

:30:15.:30:19.

Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it

:30:20.:30:24.

should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help

:30:25.:30:28.

create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories

:30:29.:30:34.

we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have

:30:35.:30:38.

trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees

:30:39.:30:42.

to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or

:30:43.:30:46.

bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the

:30:47.:30:50.

tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's

:30:51.:30:57.

turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional

:30:58.:31:02.

conversation where you have to discuss whether English people

:31:03.:31:04.

voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions

:31:05.:31:08.

and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,

:31:09.:31:12.

we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying

:31:13.:31:20.

rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is

:31:21.:31:25.

the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where

:31:26.:31:29.

people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers

:31:30.:31:31.

talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point

:31:32.:31:37.

you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to

:31:38.:31:42.

vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you

:31:43.:31:47.

see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is

:31:48.:31:51.

an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so

:31:52.:31:54.

simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British

:31:55.:31:58.

constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of

:31:59.:32:04.

Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the

:32:05.:32:09.

transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In

:32:10.:32:13.

Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote

:32:14.:32:16.

on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different

:32:17.:32:21.

votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not

:32:22.:32:24.

necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in

:32:25.:32:27.

Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I

:32:28.:32:32.

think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy

:32:33.:32:37.

in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,

:32:38.:32:41.

Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to

:32:42.:32:44.

now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue

:32:45.:32:49.

of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in

:32:50.:32:53.

bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.

:32:54.:32:58.

What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give

:32:59.:33:01.

you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a

:33:02.:33:06.

rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and

:33:07.:33:10.

there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has

:33:11.:33:16.

vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell

:33:17.:33:19.

us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme

:33:20.:33:24.

right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on

:33:25.:33:27.

tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.

:33:28.:33:32.

Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable

:33:33.:33:36.

future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending

:33:37.:33:40.

for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many

:33:41.:33:44.

of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said

:33:45.:33:50.

that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing

:33:51.:33:52.

out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:53.:33:56.

done which is having already deprived communities having money

:33:57.:33:59.

taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:00.:34:03.

accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:04.:34:09.

There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:10.:34:14.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:15.:34:21.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:22.:34:23.

government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:24.:34:30.

is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:31.:34:34.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:35.:34:39.

have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:40.:34:43.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:44.:34:47.

necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:48.:34:51.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:52.:34:55.

want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:34:56.:35:00.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:01.:35:04.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:05.:35:07.

different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:08.:35:10.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:11.:35:14.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:15.:35:17.

minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:18.:35:23.

would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:24.:35:27.

years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:28.:35:35.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:36.:35:41.

can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:42.:35:46.

have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:47.:35:49.

people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:50.:35:54.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:35:55.:35:57.

tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:35:58.:36:01.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:02.:36:06.

workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:07.:36:10.

payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:11.:36:15.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:16.:36:20.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:21.:36:24.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I

:36:25.:36:33.

cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:34.:36:36.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:37.:36:39.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:40.:36:42.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %

:36:43.:36:50.

and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I

:36:51.:36:53.

don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:54.:36:58.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:36:59.:37:03.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies

:37:04.:37:06.

before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their

:37:07.:37:09.

pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are

:37:10.:37:12.

also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as

:37:13.:37:16.

well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering

:37:17.:37:20.

great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:21.:37:24.

number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.

:37:25.:37:27.

The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three

:37:28.:37:31.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:32.:37:35.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:36.:37:37.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

:37:38.:37:39.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:40.:37:42.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:43.:37:47.

Labour as their conference starts In the East Midlands:

:37:48.:37:49.

the Sunday Politics where you are. A no vote in Scotland, but big

:37:50.:38:00.

changes on the way for us all. We've got all the reaction

:38:01.:38:04.

and we're at the Labour conference The most important lesson that we

:38:05.:38:08.

need to learn from Scotland is not that people are looking for some

:38:09.:38:13.

sort of top`down answers from Westminster government, I think the

:38:14.:38:16.

biggest thing that we heard loud and clear from Scotland is that people

:38:17.:38:19.

are just a bit fed up of Westminster politics, and politics as usual

:38:20.:38:22.

and not being listened to. And they've been

:38:23.:38:26.

a contentious issue in the past, but now a report claims we

:38:27.:38:27.

have three of the most polltting power stations in Europe. Is it time

:38:28.:38:31.

to give up on burning coal? Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and tackling

:38:32.:38:36.

all the burning issues of the week, my guests, the Conservative MP

:38:37.:38:39.

for Sherwood, Mark Spencer `nd Kat is the Green Party organiser

:38:40.:38:42.

for the East Midlands and w`s the party's lead candidate here

:38:43.:38:48.

in the recent European elections. First let's get your reactions

:38:49.:38:52.

on the story of the moment, the Scottish referendum and calls

:38:53.:38:55.

for more powers for our loc`l Mark, where does this Scotthsh vote

:38:56.:39:11.

leave us in the East Midlands? We should welcome that vote to stay

:39:12.:39:15.

together, it start the debate about what we want to see and how we

:39:16.:39:21.

organise local government, `nd that has been a debate that has long time

:39:22.:39:25.

coming, and I am keen to get stuck into it to change the model we

:39:26.:39:30.

currently have. Has David C`meron promised too much to Scotland? Now,

:39:31.:39:42.

he says we need a fairer system we need Scotland people in control we

:39:43.:39:44.

need to make sure that Englhsh are in control of their destiny and

:39:45.:39:46.

Scottish and control of thehr destiny. Kat, you said you were

:39:47.:39:50.

disappointed that Scotland did not vote for independence. Firstly, I

:39:51.:39:58.

respect their choice, but wd wanted a yes for independence, I understand

:39:59.:40:02.

the Scottish being frustratdd with being governed by a governmdnt that

:40:03.:40:08.

they have not really voted hn, the support for the Conservativd Party

:40:09.:40:11.

is quite limited in Scotland, but nevertheless, they are ruled by

:40:12.:40:16.

them. I hoped that this votd would open up the system of democracy that

:40:17.:40:22.

needs revising. Surely be issues that you are concerned withhn the

:40:23.:40:26.

Green Party, to climate change, that can only be tackled on a global

:40:27.:40:31.

basis, so having more countries will slow that down. I think we need to

:40:32.:40:37.

work together, for example, in the European Union. But we need to make

:40:38.:40:40.

decisions at the lowest, appropriate level, but as for the Green Party

:40:41.:40:45.

wants to promote, so we verx much welcome devolution and I agree it is

:40:46.:41:02.

long coming and we need to look at giving more power for local

:41:03.:41:03.

authorities and regional cotncils. Mark, what with these powers look

:41:04.:41:06.

like in the East Midlands? What could we visualise? It is about

:41:07.:41:08.

passing down power as low as possible. I would like to sde

:41:09.:41:10.

unitary authorities looked `t, more power for the parish and town

:41:11.:41:15.

council, so simplicity, if xou give a council the ability for gritting

:41:16.:41:18.

their own roads, they know the roads in the housing estates bettdr, they

:41:19.:41:22.

now are the challenges are the challenges after clearing the snow,

:41:23.:41:25.

so that is much better than a centralised system. You are agreeing

:41:26.:41:32.

with that. Yes, but I would like to see more planning, more powdrs for

:41:33.:41:36.

public services, schools, the NHS, even income tax, I think it would be

:41:37.:41:39.

an idea that it would be localised. More from you both in a momdnt,

:41:40.:41:47.

and the leader of one of our city councils who wants more

:41:48.:41:50.

control over transport and But let's head across to Manchester

:41:51.:41:52.

now because Labour politici`ns from the East Midlands are gathering

:41:53.:41:57.

there for their party conference. Our Political Editor,

:41:58.:41:59.

John Hess is with them and he's been talking to two senior

:42:00.:42:01.

party figures from our patch. Well, what can the voters

:42:02.:42:04.

of the East Midlands expect from Labour and Ed Miliband at their

:42:05.:42:07.

conference here in Manchestdr? The last

:42:08.:42:09.

before the general election? Joining me is Vernon Coaker

:42:10.:42:10.

and Leonie Mathers, who hopds to be the next MP for Sherwood

:42:11.:42:13.

at the next general election. The one thing about this conference

:42:14.:42:16.

is the shadow of Scotland, that referendum result is already

:42:17.:42:19.

very much like a ghost here, Vernon Coaker, when do we get Labotr's

:42:20.:42:24.

response to that result for English regional government and

:42:25.:42:27.

for more power for English cities? Firstly,

:42:28.:42:32.

this is very good news that Scotland Obviously,

:42:33.:42:34.

that has consequences across the UK But what we want to do is to take

:42:35.:42:39.

a period of time to consider We need to consult with loc`l

:42:40.:42:46.

councils and local people Cities like Nottingham crying

:42:47.:42:50.

out for more powers, it seels. This is to do with Westminster

:42:51.:42:58.

and with the regions and with You cannot rush to conclusions

:42:59.:43:03.

on this. Leonie Mathers,

:43:04.:43:10.

we have been around this cotrse with regional government before, the

:43:11.:43:12.

East Midlands had its own rdgional Yes, and the most important lesson

:43:13.:43:15.

from Scotland is not that pdople are looking for some kind of top`down

:43:16.:43:22.

answers from Westminster government. The biggest thing that we hdard loud

:43:23.:43:26.

and clear from Scotland is that people are bit fed up Westmhnster

:43:27.:43:29.

politics, politics as usual, The worst thing we could do would be

:43:30.:43:32.

to rush headlong into something that We have got to be

:43:33.:43:38.

listening to people. We will hear a lot about

:43:39.:43:50.

bread`and`butter issues at this conference, one issue has bden the

:43:51.:43:54.

minimum wage, up to ?8 per hour is that the kind of issue that would

:43:55.:44:00.

get constituencies over the line for Labour at the next general dlection?

:44:01.:44:05.

Saying we would raise the mhnimum wage to ?8 is incredible, it is the

:44:06.:44:09.

kind of thing that we are looking for, and I think people need to hear

:44:10.:44:13.

much more of that, because `t the end of the day, what people are

:44:14.:44:17.

saying to us, things are re`lly hard, really tough, we had four use

:44:18.:44:22.

of this government, and people are feeling worse off, not bettdr off.

:44:23.:44:27.

Should voters be concerned that in the magazine to the Labour delegates

:44:28.:44:32.

arriving here, the message from Ed Miliband, but of hard`working

:44:33.:44:39.

people, helping hard`working people, but no reference to

:44:40.:44:41.

deficit`reduction? Ed Milib`nd and Ed Balls have made it very clear,

:44:42.:44:48.

there are no commitments to spending that are not costed and looked at.

:44:49.:44:53.

We're here about changing the economy for better, changing the

:44:54.:44:57.

country for better, but doing it in a responsible way, and that is what

:44:58.:45:04.

you will hear in the run`up to the election. This is a key week for Ed

:45:05.:45:12.

Miliband in Manchester. Every week is a key week in trying to get into

:45:13.:45:15.

government, what we are tryhng to offer the country is governlent for

:45:16.:45:18.

all people which is in a position to the Tories that are governing for

:45:19.:45:23.

the few. Education, schools, child welfare and the issue of Scotland

:45:24.:45:25.

will be discussed here in Manchester.

:45:26.:45:27.

Thanks, John and we're joindd in the studio by the leader of Derby City

:45:28.:45:30.

We heard these powers would take time, do you want those powdrs and

:45:31.:45:43.

what powers do you want? If we look across the UK, whether Glasgow are

:45:44.:45:47.

Derby, that cannot be dealt with effectively from Westminster. For

:45:48.:45:53.

MPs, it is difficult to be truly local. Why can you not steal it from

:45:54.:45:58.

Westminster? Well, council leaders like myself, I represent thd city as

:45:59.:46:05.

a council leader, born and bred there, we are closely connected ..

:46:06.:46:10.

Mark is connected to his colmunity in Sherwood, I would say. C`ncers

:46:11.:46:21.

`` councillors. We are one of the `` councillors. We are one of the

:46:22.:46:23.

most centralised Western democracies... What exactly do you

:46:24.:46:30.

want to do with these powers? In 2006, the Secretary of Statd for

:46:31.:46:33.

community and local governmdnts David Miliband propose some double

:46:34.:46:36.

devolution proposals, and that was about taking power along with

:46:37.:46:41.

financing from the centre and giving it to local communities, cotncils,

:46:42.:46:46.

and for the councils to pass it down to local amenities and local

:46:47.:46:50.

neighbourhoods. Great progrdss was made in that, communities lhke the

:46:51.:46:54.

one eyebrow present in Derbx, they set up community forums and

:46:55.:47:00.

boards... I still do not know what you would achieve with thesd powers?

:47:01.:47:06.

We can deal with strategic powers, like dealing with congestion, social

:47:07.:47:10.

inequality, health inequality issues, bringing regeneration,

:47:11.:47:17.

driving forward... Employment. Mark, these three cities have Labour

:47:18.:47:20.

councils, would you as a Conservative MP be happy to give

:47:21.:47:26.

more powers to councils likd Ranjit's? I would like to go much

:47:27.:47:31.

lower, go to parish councils, town councils, those are the way forward,

:47:32.:47:36.

to give them responsibility for what matters to them, like cleanhng

:47:37.:47:40.

streets in your town, you could operate that with a town cotncil,

:47:41.:47:45.

and smaller details. You were a County Council, are the councils up

:47:46.:47:54.

to the job? The calibre of councils compared to MPs? There are some very

:47:55.:47:57.

good councils, some very poor councils. There are good MPs and bad

:47:58.:48:03.

MPs. Strategically, we could look at changing the model and going to

:48:04.:48:07.

unitary verities and passing more power as low down the structure as

:48:08.:48:13.

possible to the parish and the council. Should councils like Derby,

:48:14.:48:16.

Leicester, Nottingham have lore showers? Yes, I agree with Lark

:48:17.:48:24.

here. The lowest level posshble I would like to see powers. Wd would

:48:25.:48:28.

like to support the system that is bottom up. That would include those

:48:29.:48:33.

that have the opportunity to deselect somebody, I think the

:48:34.:48:40.

top`down system is not servhng this and we have lost the local needs

:48:41.:48:48.

being met. If we talk about councils being up to the job, planning,

:48:49.:48:53.

economic development could they deal with that? Absolutely. They knew the

:48:54.:48:59.

needs of the community, thex know the facilities and the businesses. I

:49:00.:49:02.

would give far more power on this level. You have got to work together

:49:03.:49:08.

on some of the more strateghc decisions. They work at a hhgh

:49:09.:49:13.

level, like development of the 453 only happened with Nottingh`m

:49:14.:49:17.

working with Derby and with coming together and lobbying government to

:49:18.:49:22.

get that cash. I have never heard of a council or politician not wanting

:49:23.:49:25.

more powers, do people want these powers? Is there evidence that

:49:26.:49:29.

working people want you to have more power in the first place? The

:49:30.:49:38.

previous government... The previous government introduced radic`l issues

:49:39.:49:43.

on devolution, but without hncreased powers and without increased

:49:44.:49:46.

financing, it becomes a talking shop. It has been very frustrating

:49:47.:49:52.

as a counsellor that this government has spent in its fifth term, its

:49:53.:49:58.

fifth year in term of officd... In Nottingham, they voted against a

:49:59.:50:02.

city mayor, Leicester went for one, so people have said they don't want

:50:03.:50:07.

more powers locally. The whole of Hucknall town, there was a rumour

:50:08.:50:11.

that the city council wanted to take over, and the majority of pdople

:50:12.:50:14.

came back and said we would rather have a Hucknall town council that

:50:15.:50:17.

would be under the control of the County Council and Ashfield district

:50:18.:50:21.

Council. People are thirsty for that power to go as low as possible. When

:50:22.:50:38.

I talked to be local residents with community walkabouts, there is a

:50:39.:50:41.

real appetite for the residdnts to want more say in running local

:50:42.:50:42.

services and that is the future Last word on this from Consdrvative

:50:43.:50:44.

councillor for Bingham, Francis Purdue`Horan who twdeted me

:50:45.:50:47.

yesterday to say he wishes to confirm categorically that he has no

:50:48.:50:50.

immediate plans to stand for the post of First Minister

:50:51.:50:52.

of the East Midlands. And tomorrow night on BBC One,

:50:53.:50:54.

Inside Out will be taking a closer look at how devolution

:50:55.:50:58.

would work in the East Midl`nds I'll be reporting from Rutl`nd

:50:59.:51:01.

and from East Midlands Airport. That's BBC One,

:51:02.:51:03.

tomorrow night at 7.30. Let's take a look

:51:04.:51:05.

at some environmental issues now and protestors are gathering all

:51:06.:51:07.

over the world today to call Meanwhile,

:51:08.:51:10.

here in the East Midlands, ` report claims we have three of the worst

:51:11.:51:13.

polluting power stations in Europe. The coal`fired power stations

:51:14.:51:16.

at Ratcliffe on Soar, Markh`m and West Burton are a seriots danger

:51:17.:51:18.

to health and should be closed down immediately according to a

:51:19.:51:21.

coalition of environmental groups. But can we afford to shut down our

:51:22.:51:24.

coal`fired power stations and what's It is a well`known landmark

:51:25.:51:27.

in the East Midlands. Ratcliffe on Soar is one

:51:28.:51:33.

of three coal`fired power stations But it is the dirtiest form

:51:34.:51:36.

of energy and has long been On this occasion,

:51:37.:51:41.

hundreds of protesters pulldd down Now Nottinghamshire's three power

:51:42.:51:46.

stations have been named and shamed by environmental groups

:51:47.:51:52.

called Europe's Dirty 30. The report found that coal`fired

:51:53.:51:59.

power stations produced just under a third

:52:00.:52:02.

of the UK electricity supplx last year, but was responsible for nearly

:52:03.:52:05.

two thirds of carbon emissions. It claims that the resulting air

:52:06.:52:10.

pollution causes 1,600 deaths per year and cheap coal has meant

:52:11.:52:14.

output has gone up and not down Environmentalists want

:52:15.:52:21.

the old coal`fired power st`tions Five have closed

:52:22.:52:24.

in the last two years and more are Even someone like John Unwin,

:52:25.:52:29.

once a miner, now working at Sibson Discovery Centre says

:52:30.:52:36.

the writing is on the wall. Coal is a fossil fuel at thd end

:52:37.:52:40.

of the day. Try as you can, with the best of

:52:41.:52:44.

energy available, you're just going It is time to replace it, btt it

:52:45.:52:47.

will take time to get peopld used to EDF which operates two of the three

:52:48.:52:55.

power stations in Nottinghalshire says that both stations meet current

:52:56.:53:00.

European limits on air emissions. In 2016,

:53:01.:53:05.

the Industrial Emissions Directive will require existing plans to

:53:06.:53:08.

comply with new emissions lhmits. This will require the plants to

:53:09.:53:13.

be fitted with new technology. Carbon taxes on energy

:53:14.:53:20.

companies like EDF and E.ON are designed to encourage them to

:53:21.:53:23.

invest in clean power, but LPs from the three major parties and

:53:24.:53:27.

business leaders want the government to ease up on charges to give the

:53:28.:53:31.

economy a better chance to recover. We can talk it through

:53:32.:53:39.

because the job is already done .. Barry Randall runs a landsc`ping

:53:40.:53:41.

gardening company in Leicestershire. He thinks that a freeze

:53:42.:53:47.

on green taxes might slow High heating bills nearly ptt him

:53:48.:53:51.

out of business Inevitably, the bigger comp`nies

:53:52.:53:56.

are the bigger polluters, they are It will just filter down

:53:57.:54:02.

and everyone will just be affected I don't think there is any way

:54:03.:54:07.

around that The government is committed to

:54:08.:54:12.

reducing carbon emissions bx 20 0. It says it says it is well

:54:13.:54:17.

on the way to meeting that target. Environmentalists say that progress

:54:18.:54:20.

is too slow, but there is growing pressure

:54:21.:54:24.

for a rethink on carbon taxds by those who see them as too hhgh and a

:54:25.:54:27.

threat to the UK's competithveness. Kat, on the face of it, it hs a

:54:28.:54:44.

worrying report, but we heard the businessmen in that report saying

:54:45.:54:48.

supporting green energy means prices would go up? This is incorrdct, if

:54:49.:54:53.

we face climate change, this is a huge catastrophe. We, our children,

:54:54.:54:57.

our grandchildren will have to face this. That would be very costly not

:54:58.:55:02.

only in money terms but in human lives, actually, so we cannot afford

:55:03.:55:09.

to wait any longer. Plus looking economically in areas where they

:55:10.:55:12.

have invested greatly instantaneous energies, it has created a lot of

:55:13.:55:18.

jobs. Solar energy has prodtced more jobs than the entire fossil fuel

:55:19.:55:23.

industry together, so it makes economic sense also. Do you say

:55:24.:55:28.

alternative energy like sol`r and wind power are not more expdnsive or

:55:29.:55:32.

they are more expensive? Thdy might be more expensive in the short`term

:55:33.:55:37.

but in the long term we had to do something. Some reports say

:55:38.:55:42.

alternative energy could be twice as expensive. That is incorrect, we

:55:43.:55:45.

have seen it in Germany and the price increase in Germany w`s more

:55:46.:55:53.

down to the poor management. There is a lot of scaremongering. Mark,

:55:54.:55:59.

all scare talk? It is ironic being lectured by somebody from Gdrmany

:56:00.:56:02.

about coal`fired power stathons when they are building more and faster

:56:03.:56:08.

than we are! We had to get the balance right, we cannot give

:56:09.:56:13.

competitors in Europe and advantage with cheaper energy, we havd to take

:56:14.:56:17.

the rest of Europe with this if we want to get greener, but thd

:56:18.:56:19.

government is responsible for keeping the lights on and if we

:56:20.:56:23.

abandoned the coal`fired power stations, the lights would go out.

:56:24.:56:28.

In Germany they have a long`term plan to go away from coal, so in

:56:29.:56:34.

Germany, they have managed. In 2012... Why are they building more

:56:35.:56:42.

coal`fired power stations? Because they are phasing out nuclear, it is

:56:43.:56:45.

a short`term plan, and I do not agree with it, however, the

:56:46.:56:48.

long`term plan is to move away from coal. In the renewables sector, they

:56:49.:56:55.

have produced in 2012, five times as much energy than are 16 nuclear

:56:56.:57:01.

power stations combined. Thdse are real figures that are managdable. If

:57:02.:57:05.

you look at the Danes, they went down the route of wind power and

:57:06.:57:09.

increase the edge of coal they burnt. They had to use coal in order

:57:10.:57:34.

to plug the gaps when the whnds didn't blow. We have to get that

:57:35.:57:37.

energy balance back. Mark, xou are on the government's green w`tchdog,

:57:38.:57:39.

what does it do? You always said you would be the greenest ever, how is

:57:40.:57:42.

it going? We're making good progress in reducing carbon emissions. We are

:57:43.:57:45.

in a race with the rest of the world. If you are charging over the

:57:46.:57:47.

hill and leaving everyone bdhind you, all that you do is you export

:57:48.:57:50.

your carbon to another country. Is fracking be answered? Now, ht is

:57:51.:57:55.

not. We will run out of fossil fuels, sooner or later, that is a

:57:56.:57:59.

fact. You need to invest in renewable energy, and to sax that we

:58:00.:58:03.

cannot do it too fast, for 30 years, we have said this needs to happen,

:58:04.:58:09.

30 years, and our grandchildren we owe it to them, climate change is

:58:10.:58:14.

happening, that is a fact. Will this be a big issue in the next general

:58:15.:58:24.

election? Carbon capture is coming, it would be a big issue. Thd other

:58:25.:58:30.

thing is, you mentioned that renewables may come and go,

:58:31.:58:32.

depending on the weather, for example, you mentioned Denm`rk, we

:58:33.:58:36.

have got a system, a Europe`n wide grid for you can work with the

:58:37.:58:40.

renewables in order to manage that if it is sunny in Spain and windy

:58:41.:58:49.

here, we can equally benefit from it, so we need to work together Do

:58:50.:58:52.

think that Paris will see the lights go out to help London? ! We have to

:58:53.:58:54.

leave that there are. Time for a round`up of some

:58:55.:58:56.

of the other political storhes in the East Midlands this wdek,

:58:57.:58:59.

here's Rob Pittam, with 60 Seconds. A company criticised

:59:00.:59:01.

for how it takes patients to and from hospital in the

:59:02.:59:04.

East Midlands says improvemdnts to Arriva Transport Solutions carries

:59:05.:59:06.

nonemergency patients in Nottinghamshire,

:59:07.:59:09.

Leicestershire and Rutland. The Care Quality Commission says

:59:10.:59:10.

the service fails in three of five areas, but the company says it has

:59:11.:59:13.

now increased staff and vehhcles. Labour's East Midlands MP Glenis

:59:14.:59:20.

Wilmott is leading Europe's moves to clamp down on scandals involving

:59:21.:59:22.

medical devices. Brussels wants new legislathon

:59:23.:59:26.

after scares involving breast The Nottinghamshire Police `nd

:59:27.:59:29.

Crime Commissioner Paddy Tipping wants an independent review

:59:30.:59:34.

of allegations of abuse The police are investigating claims

:59:35.:59:38.

of physical and sexual abusd And Ashfield in Nottinghamshire

:59:39.:59:43.

looks the best place to get yours The district council there has won

:59:44.:59:49.

a seventh Gold award from the RSPCA for its dedication to reuniting lost

:59:50.:59:54.

pooches with their owners. One council that doesn't nedd powers

:59:55.:00:11.

to get the job done! Kat, there is a general election coming up, will you

:00:12.:00:15.

be standing as an MP and whdre? I hope to, at the moment Green Party

:00:16.:00:20.

members are voting on it, so it is up to them. I had to stand hn

:00:21.:00:25.

Nottingham East or Nottingh`m North. There is a slight hitch, thd fact

:00:26.:00:28.

you were born in Germany and do not have a UK passport, that is causing

:00:29.:00:46.

some problems? It is currently with the Home Office, I hope that my

:00:47.:00:48.

citizenship comes through in time, I meet the requirement, I havd litter

:00:49.:00:51.

for 15 years. It is strange that she cannot stand? and stand, in Sherwood

:00:52.:00:53.

against the Conservative mayor's policy No

:00:54.:00:57.

more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.

:00:58.:01:05.

Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:01:06.:01:08.

by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:09.:01:11.

I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:12.:01:17.

In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:18.:01:18.

the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:19.:01:21.

He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:22.:01:25.

Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:26.:01:36.

votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:37.:01:39.

why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:40.:01:44.

in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:45.:01:48.

certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to

:01:49.:01:52.

the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?

:01:53.:01:56.

Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to

:01:57.:02:00.

Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a

:02:01.:02:08.

Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the

:02:09.:02:11.

alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and

:02:12.:02:16.

everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was

:02:17.:02:22.

my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year

:02:23.:02:28.

plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to

:02:29.:02:32.

turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if

:02:33.:02:36.

that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can

:02:37.:02:41.

get reform in a more federal structure, and even English

:02:42.:02:45.

parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the

:02:46.:02:48.

Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite

:02:49.:02:53.

radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in

:02:54.:02:57.

the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's

:02:58.:03:04.

assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they

:03:05.:03:07.

remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but

:03:08.:03:12.

don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their

:03:13.:03:17.

favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come

:03:18.:03:20.

up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page

:03:21.:03:27.

of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the

:03:28.:03:29.

time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you

:03:30.:03:34.

want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want

:03:35.:03:37.

Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is

:03:38.:03:41.

scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the

:03:42.:03:45.

constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same

:03:46.:03:50.

with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a

:03:51.:03:53.

fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years

:03:54.:03:57.

ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't

:03:58.:04:01.

mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are

:04:02.:04:07.

promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout

:04:08.:04:13.

of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The

:04:14.:04:17.

turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get

:04:18.:04:20.

people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation

:04:21.:04:24.

in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what

:04:25.:04:27.

you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they

:04:28.:04:32.

were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is

:04:33.:04:35.

about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in

:04:36.:04:39.

the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and

:04:40.:04:42.

you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,

:04:43.:04:46.

but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of

:04:47.:04:49.

power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.

:04:50.:04:53.

They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with

:04:54.:04:58.

what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up

:04:59.:05:02.

with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of

:05:03.:05:06.

city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a

:05:07.:05:10.

democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of

:05:11.:05:13.

Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of

:05:14.:05:18.

democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:19.:05:23.

boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:24.:05:28.

Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:29.:05:32.

and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:33.:05:36.

regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:37.:05:39.

structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:40.:05:42.

Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:43.:05:47.

believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:48.:05:51.

in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:52.:05:55.

in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:05:56.:05:58.

happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:05:59.:06:03.

You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:04.:06:06.

not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:07.:06:11.

separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:12.:06:16.

if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:17.:06:21.

Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:22.:06:24.

the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:25.:06:29.

about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:30.:06:32.

with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:33.:06:37.

Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:38.:06:41.

Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:42.:06:45.

it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:46.:06:48.

Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:49.:06:55.

lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:06:56.:07:00.

something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:01.:07:03.

Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:04.:07:08.

what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:09.:07:12.

different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:13.:07:16.

decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:17.:07:25.

thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:26.:07:28.

not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:29.:07:32.

covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:33.:07:37.

speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:38.:07:40.

was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:41.:07:44.

independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:45.:07:48.

an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:49.:07:53.

Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:07:54.:08:01.

In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:02.:08:08.

with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:09.:08:13.

30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:14.:08:17.

support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:18.:08:20.

make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:21.:08:24.

and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:25.:08:30.

today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:31.:08:35.

Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:36.:08:42.

can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:43.:08:49.

do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:50.:08:56.

about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:08:57.:08:59.

and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:00.:09:06.

started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left

:09:07.:09:11.

behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National

:09:12.:09:14.

Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If

:09:15.:09:18.

you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you

:09:19.:09:21.

haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the

:09:22.:09:27.

priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that

:09:28.:09:30.

you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or

:09:31.:09:34.

paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives

:09:35.:09:39.

?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary

:09:40.:09:44.

people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the

:09:45.:09:47.

north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more

:09:48.:09:50.

to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably

:09:51.:09:55.

hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission

:09:56.:09:59.

coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I

:10:00.:10:05.

say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our

:10:06.:10:09.

language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I

:10:10.:10:13.

think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the

:10:14.:10:17.

same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they

:10:18.:10:21.

think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks

:10:22.:10:27.

like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch

:10:28.:10:31.

started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the

:10:32.:10:37.

sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how

:10:38.:10:41.

long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.

:10:42.:10:47.

-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and

:10:48.:10:50.

people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to

:10:51.:10:54.

the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is

:10:55.:11:00.

20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear

:11:01.:11:05.

anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it

:11:06.:11:10.

sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion

:11:11.:11:15.

of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why

:11:16.:11:22.

did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,

:11:23.:11:25.

but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a

:11:26.:11:32.

hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an

:11:33.:11:36.

awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.

:11:37.:11:40.

What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution

:11:41.:11:44.

and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public

:11:45.:11:48.

sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record

:11:49.:11:51.

straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the

:11:52.:11:55.

future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to

:11:56.:11:58.

change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.

:11:59.:12:05.

Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you

:12:06.:12:09.

were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite

:12:10.:12:13.

to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:14.:12:24.

is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:25.:12:26.

strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:27.:12:43.

a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:44.:12:48.

I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:49.:12:54.

back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:12:55.:12:58.

today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:12:59.:13:00.

my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:01.:13:05.

11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:06.:13:09.

We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:10.:13:14.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:15.:13:22.

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