15/01/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


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15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron MP, Max Mosley and Piers Morgan.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:32.:00:35.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:36.:00:38.

of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:39.:00:42.

We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:43.:00:45.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:46.:00:52.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:53.:00:54.

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:00:55.:00:59.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:00.:01:05.

Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:06.:01:09.

And in the East Midlands, the council bucking the trend and

:01:10.:01:12.

building new care homes for the elderly.

:01:13.:01:14.

We've a special weather report on the

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:31.:01:32.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:33.:01:40.

So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:01:55.:01:57.

The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:01:58.:02:00.

gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:01.:02:04.

will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:05.:02:07.

of the single market and customs union.

:02:08.:02:12.

The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:13.:02:14.

they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:15.:02:17.

The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:44.:02:49.

most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:50.:02:52.

But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:02:53.:02:58.

that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:02:59.:03:02.

the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:03.:03:06.

the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:07.:03:10.

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:11.:03:14.

with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:15.:03:19.

stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:20.:03:22.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:23.:03:25.

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:26.:03:30.

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:31.:03:34.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:35.:03:37.

and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:38.:03:43.

it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:44.:03:47.

the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:48.:03:51.

believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:03:52.:03:56.

resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:03:57.:04:00.

Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:01.:04:05.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:19.:04:22.

the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:27.:04:29.

final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:30.:04:35.

Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:36.:04:41.

Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:42.:04:44.

a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:45.:04:48.

introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:53.:04:55.

servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:04:56.:04:59.

deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:00.:05:03.

the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:04.:05:10.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:13.:05:15.

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:16.:05:18.

of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:25.:05:29.

good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:30.:05:32.

that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:33.:05:36.

nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:37.:05:39.

best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:40.:05:44.

that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:45.:05:48.

union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:05:56.:05:58.

travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:05:59.:06:02.

Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:03.:06:07.

and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:08.:06:10.

the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:11.:06:13.

believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:14.:06:18.

for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:19.:06:24.

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:25.:06:28.

continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:29.:06:32.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:33.:06:37.

Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:38.:06:41.

membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:42.:06:43.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:44.:06:49.

believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:50.:06:53.

I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:54.:06:57.

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:06:58.:07:01.

individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:02.:07:05.

your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:06.:07:11.

freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:12.:07:15.

Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:16.:07:20.

don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:21.:07:23.

without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:30.:07:32.

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:33.:07:37.

flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:38.:07:40.

corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:41.:07:43.

that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:44.:07:50.

members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:51.:07:56.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:07:57.:08:00.

many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:01.:08:03.

you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:04.:08:06.

aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:07.:08:10.

that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:11.:08:13.

very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:14.:08:18.

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:19.:08:22.

answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:23.:08:28.

the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:29.:08:32.

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:33.:08:37.

right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:38.:08:42.

you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:43.:08:45.

afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:46.:08:49.

The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:50.:08:55.

Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:08:56.:09:03.

the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:04.:09:07.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:08.:09:10.

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:11.:09:13.

for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:14.:09:20.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:21.:09:24.

migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:25.:09:27.

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:28.:09:31.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:32.:09:34.

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:35.:09:38.

clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:39.:09:42.

don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:43.:09:45.

definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:46.:09:52.

is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:53.:09:55.

somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:56.:09:57.

hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:09:58.:10:03.

option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:04.:10:06.

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:07.:10:09.

We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:10.:10:18.

on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:19.:10:21.

reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:22.:10:26.

possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:27.:10:29.

David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:30.:10:33.

Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:34.:10:37.

are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:38.:10:42.

rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:43.:10:48.

arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:49.:10:52.

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:53.:10:56.

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:10:57.:10:59.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:00.:11:04.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:05.:11:07.

you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:08.:11:11.

years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:12.:11:16.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:17.:11:20.

would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:21.:11:25.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:26.:11:30.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:31.:11:33.

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:34.:11:39.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:40.:11:43.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:44.:11:47.

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:48.:11:53.

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:54.:11:58.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:11:59.:12:02.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:03.:12:06.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:07.:12:09.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:10.:12:14.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:15.:12:17.

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:18.:12:20.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:21.:12:25.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:26.:12:28.

Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:31.:12:33.

enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:34.:12:34.

Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:35.:12:37.

could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:38.:12:39.

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:40.:12:49.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:50.:12:52.

while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:53.:12:54.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:55.:12:56.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:12:57.:13:02.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:03.:13:06.

a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:07.:13:11.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:12.:13:14.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:15.:13:16.

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:17.:13:26.

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:27.:13:29.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:30.:13:31.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:32.:13:34.

that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:35.:13:35.

like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:36.:13:37.

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:38.:13:44.

the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:45.:13:48.

publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:49.:13:50.

costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:51.:13:54.

It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:13:55.:13:58.

We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:13:59.:14:02.

This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:03.:14:04.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:05.:14:10.

from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:11.:14:13.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:14.:14:18.

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:19.:14:24.

you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:25.:14:26.

I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:27.:14:29.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:30.:14:32.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:33.:14:34.

"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:35.:14:37.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:38.:14:39.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:40.:14:48.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:49.:14:50.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:51.:14:53.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:54.:14:55.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:56.:15:04.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:05.:15:06.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:07.:15:11.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:12.:15:14.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:15.:15:20.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:21.:15:24.

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:25.:15:26.

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:27.:15:29.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:30.:15:33.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:34.:15:35.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:36.:15:37.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:38.:15:40.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:41.:15:43.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:44.:15:50.

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:51.:15:55.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:56.:15:57.

since the Government launched its consultation

:15:58.:15:59.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:00.:16:02.

And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:03.:16:06.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:07.:16:11.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:12.:16:13.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:14.:16:20.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:21.:16:22.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:23.:16:30.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:31.:16:34.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:35.:16:38.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:39.:16:41.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:42.:16:45.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:46.:16:50.

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:51.:16:53.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:54.:16:56.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:16:57.:17:01.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:02.:17:04.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:05.:17:08.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:09.:17:11.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:12.:17:14.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:15.:17:24.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:25.:17:27.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:28.:17:31.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:32.:17:39.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:40.:17:44.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:45.:17:48.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:49.:17:53.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:54.:17:57.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:17:58.:18:02.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:03.:18:07.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:08.:18:08.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:09.:18:35.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:36.:18:38.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:39.:18:40.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:41.:18:43.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:44.:18:46.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:47.:18:49.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:50.:18:52.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:53.:18:59.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:00.:19:02.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:03.:19:07.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:08.:19:11.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:12.:19:21.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:22.:19:25.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:26.:19:32.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:33.:19:36.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:37.:19:45.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:46.:19:49.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:50.:19:55.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:56.:19:59.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:00.:20:05.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:06.:20:08.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:09.:20:14.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:15.:20:19.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:20.:20:25.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:26.:20:29.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:30.:20:37.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:38.:20:42.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:43.:20:49.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:50.:20:54.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:55.:20:58.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:20:59.:21:02.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:03.:21:06.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:07.:21:09.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:10.:21:14.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:15.:21:18.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:19.:21:24.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:25.:21:30.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:31.:21:39.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:40.:21:55.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:21:56.:22:02.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:03.:22:06.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:07.:22:11.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:12.:22:16.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:17.:22:27.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:28.:22:35.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:36.:22:39.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:40.:22:44.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:45.:22:50.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:51.:22:54.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:55.:23:00.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:01.:23:06.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:07.:23:11.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:12.:23:17.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:18.:23:23.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:24.:23:28.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:29.:23:34.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:35.:23:38.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:39.:23:44.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:45.:23:54.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:55.:24:04.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:05.:24:08.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:09.:24:12.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:13.:24:17.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:18.:24:21.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:22.:24:27.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:28.:24:33.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:34.:24:43.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:44.:24:52.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:53.:24:56.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:24:57.:25:02.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:03.:25:06.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:07.:25:13.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:14.:25:17.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:18.:25:22.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:23.:25:27.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:28.:25:30.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:31.:25:35.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:36.:25:40.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:41.:25:52.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:53.:26:01.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:02.:26:05.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:06.:26:08.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:09.:26:12.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:13.:26:15.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:16.:26:20.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:21.:26:25.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:26.:26:29.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:30.:26:37.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:38.:26:43.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:44.:26:50.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:51.:26:52.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:53.:26:58.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:26:59.:27:02.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:03.:27:08.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:09.:27:12.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:13.:27:18.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:19.:27:23.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:24.:27:28.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:29.:27:32.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:33.:27:39.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:40.:27:43.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:44.:27:47.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:48.:27:51.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:52.:27:55.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:56.:28:00.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:01.:28:04.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:05.:28:11.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:12.:28:16.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:17.:28:19.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:20.:28:24.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:25.:28:33.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:34.:28:37.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:38.:28:41.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:42.:28:46.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:47.:28:50.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:51.:28:51.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:52.:28:53.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:54.:28:58.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:28:59.:29:00.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:01.:29:03.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:04.:29:06.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:07.:29:08.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:09.:29:15.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:16.:29:17.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:18.:29:22.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:23.:29:26.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:27.:29:34.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:35.:29:36.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:37.:29:41.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:42.:29:43.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:44.:29:49.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:50.:29:52.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:53.:29:58.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:29:59.:30:02.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:03.:30:06.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:07.:30:10.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:11.:30:13.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:14.:30:20.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:21.:30:24.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:25.:30:27.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:28.:30:34.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:35.:30:37.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:38.:30:40.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:41.:30:50.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:51.:30:55.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:56.:30:58.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:30:59.:31:01.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:02.:31:06.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:07.:31:11.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:12.:31:16.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:17.:31:21.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:22.:31:24.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:25.:31:28.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:29.:31:31.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:32.:31:35.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:36.:31:45.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:46.:31:48.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:49.:31:50.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:51.:31:53.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:54.:31:58.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:31:59.:32:02.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:03.:32:06.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:07.:32:12.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:13.:32:15.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:16.:32:22.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:23.:32:27.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:28.:32:30.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:31.:32:34.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:35.:32:39.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:40.:32:47.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:48.:32:50.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:51.:32:54.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:55.:32:59.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:00.:33:03.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:04.:33:06.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:07.:33:10.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:11.:33:17.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:18.:33:19.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:20.:33:22.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:23.:33:27.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:28.:33:31.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:32.:33:34.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:35.:33:38.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:39.:33:43.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:44.:33:48.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:49.:33:51.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:52.:33:55.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:56.:34:00.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:01.:34:04.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:05.:34:08.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:09.:34:12.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:13.:34:15.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:16.:34:22.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:23.:34:27.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:28.:34:31.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:32.:34:36.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:37.:34:40.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:41.:34:45.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:46.:34:50.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:51.:34:54.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:55.:34:59.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:00.:35:03.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:04.:35:06.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:07.:35:10.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:11.:35:14.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:15.:35:17.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:18.:35:24.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:25.:35:29.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:30.:35:33.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:34.:35:37.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:38.:35:42.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:43.:35:45.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:46.:35:50.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:51.:35:52.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:53.:35:57.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:35:58.:36:00.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:01.:36:05.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:06.:36:12.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:13.:36:14.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:15.:36:17.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:18.:36:21.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:22.:36:24.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:25.:36:28.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:29.:36:33.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:34.:36:37.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:38.:36:40.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:41.:36:45.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:46.:36:50.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:51.:36:53.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:54.:36:57.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:36:58.:37:00.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:01.:37:05.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:06.:37:09.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:10.:37:12.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:13.:37:17.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:18.:37:21.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:22.:37:25.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:26.:37:28.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:29.:37:30.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:31.:37:32.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:33.:37:35.

minutes: The Week Ahead. In the East Midlands,

:37:36.:37:46.

the council building new care homes. Derbyshire bucks a national

:37:47.:37:49.

trend with its latest specialist centre but says it

:37:50.:37:51.

will struggle to build more. We are wasting money

:37:52.:37:54.

keeping people in hospital, which is expensive,

:37:55.:37:57.

when they don't need to be there instead of coming

:37:58.:38:00.

to places like this. And it's looking like

:38:01.:38:01.

a stormy year ahead in politics, so we've got a special

:38:02.:38:06.

weather report on the political Well, predicting the weather

:38:07.:38:09.

is one thing, but forecasting the political outlook,

:38:10.:38:14.

that's a real challenge. I'll be looking at

:38:15.:38:17.

what 2017 could have instore for the region's

:38:18.:38:19.

politicians, the economy, and the big events coming up

:38:20.:38:21.

in the year ahead. My guests for our first week

:38:22.:38:24.

of 2017 are Sir Patrick McLoughlin, the MP for

:38:25.:38:38.

Derbyshire Dales and chairman of the Conservative Party,

:38:39.:38:39.

and Liz Kendall's First, we'll be getting

:38:40.:38:41.

reaction to something Jeremy Corbyn told us this week and it

:38:42.:38:46.

appears to be an entirely new The Labour leader told our political

:38:47.:38:48.

editor, Tony Roe, that a Labour Government would take over

:38:49.:38:53.

the course of the private finance initiatives, which have landed

:38:54.:38:56.

hospitals with billions of pounds of I do think PFI, frankly,

:38:57.:38:58.

was a big mistake. I think it would be much

:38:59.:39:02.

better to invest in those new hospitals by direct public

:39:03.:39:04.

investment and I think that, generally, the public

:39:05.:39:11.

would agree with it and I don't think anybody

:39:12.:39:16.

now So, Liz Kendall, was

:39:17.:39:17.

this a surprise to you? Look, some of the early PFI deals

:39:18.:39:22.

where poor value for money and I think it's important

:39:23.:39:25.

to look at, but, you biggest programme of hospital

:39:26.:39:27.

building in the history of the NHS and we turned Victorian buildings

:39:28.:39:32.

into state-of-the-art NHS Do you agree with

:39:33.:39:34.

Jeremy Corbyn on this? I think it's important

:39:35.:39:45.

that we look at any It's interesting that the health

:39:46.:39:47.

foundation looked at this issue last year and they actually said

:39:48.:39:54.

that the cause of the financial I think the real

:39:55.:39:57.

thing we need to look at is getting more money

:39:58.:40:00.

into the system and look at the Government's

:40:01.:40:03.

failures on the NHS. Patrick McLoughlin,

:40:04.:40:04.

the biggest PFI contract in our region is actually

:40:05.:40:06.

for Kings Mill Hospital in Mansfield, which has a debt

:40:07.:40:13.

of ?2.5 million for a refit which Surely it does make sense

:40:14.:40:16.

to effectively step in and right of that

:40:17.:40:19.

massive amount of debt. Well, it's not about writing it off,

:40:20.:40:21.

it's about what was paid. What Jeremy Corbyn doesn't answer

:40:22.:40:24.

in their quick quip with Tony is where any money was now

:40:25.:40:27.

going to come from, it's still

:40:28.:40:35.

a debt on Government. I think this is a bit too

:40:36.:40:37.

dismissive, saying that all the PFIs were great things and they've

:40:38.:40:40.

done marvellous things. There were some very bad

:40:41.:40:42.

deals and we've been able to renegotiate some of those

:40:43.:40:44.

deals, but there are debts around some of our hospitals

:40:45.:40:47.

and quite a big call on their finances,

:40:48.:40:49.

and that is part of the problem that they're

:40:50.:40:50.

having to address within the house Jeremy Corbyn suggests that it

:40:51.:40:53.

could be paid for by borrowing Is that really a sensible idea

:40:54.:40:57.

in the current climate? any deal that is poor value for

:40:58.:41:00.

money, but the real issue we've got with the health care

:41:01.:41:05.

system is that we're not putting the money

:41:06.:41:07.

into social care so elderly people

:41:08.:41:08.

are getting forced to go into hospital and getting

:41:09.:41:11.

stuck in hospital. That's the good for them and it

:41:12.:41:12.

costs the taxpayer more. The Government has

:41:13.:41:15.

completely failed to Liz, when you're fighting

:41:16.:41:16.

the last general election, when you're on the front bench,

:41:17.:41:19.

you failed to our commitment on the health service, we were told

:41:20.:41:30.

by signing even that an extra ?8 billion was needed, we said

:41:31.:41:36.

we would put that money end, we are putting that money end,

:41:37.:41:39.

we will be putting Well, finds even said

:41:40.:41:41.

this week that the Prime Minister was stretching it to say

:41:42.:41:48.

the NHS had got the money it wanted and, in fact, any said that next

:41:49.:41:52.

year's spending plans on the NHS Staying with health, let's move

:41:53.:41:55.

on now because one East Midlands authority is bucking the national

:41:56.:41:59.

trend by building its own care homes Derbyshire County Council said

:42:00.:42:02.

it means it can help ease pressure on the NHS, but it

:42:03.:42:06.

claims that Government rules will Our political editor

:42:07.:42:08.

Tony Roe has been to visit the Council's

:42:09.:42:12.

newest care home. The number of council-run care

:42:13.:42:13.

homes are dwindling. Here in Derbyshire, they are taking

:42:14.:42:15.

a different approach. Meadowview is built into a hillside

:42:16.:42:20.

at Darley Dale near Matlock. Architecture for the

:42:21.:42:29.

elderly and views they

:42:30.:42:30.

say some of the best Day care is an important part

:42:31.:42:35.

of what they do here. Jane Morris says it's

:42:36.:42:40.

now a highlight of the I am look after very

:42:41.:42:43.

well by my family. I found I couldn't

:42:44.:42:47.

walk, so I came here. At first, you do wonder what it's

:42:48.:42:54.

going to be like and what It wasn't until Mum came that,

:42:55.:42:57.

actually, you realise how good Meadowview provide specialist

:42:58.:43:00.

dementia care, too, contributing to over 140 beds

:43:01.:43:03.

provided by the council. But they also have debts which can

:43:04.:43:05.

take the pressure of stretched hospitals,

:43:06.:43:09.

interim care to get people ready to go home again,

:43:10.:43:10.

ready for independence. This facility has got 16 beds

:43:11.:43:12.

specifically to get people out of hospital, get them skilled

:43:13.:43:15.

and rehabilitated, backed up so they can go home and live

:43:16.:43:17.

independently Now, in a lot of places,

:43:18.:43:19.

then that facility as people either language in hospital longer

:43:20.:43:26.

than they should or they go to a nursing home and sometimes

:43:27.:43:33.

never go home from there. It's a ?10 million

:43:34.:43:43.

capital investment here that kept control

:43:44.:43:45.

of social care in Derbyshire. They believe they found

:43:46.:43:47.

the way that is best for the elderly but the Government, they

:43:48.:43:49.

say, doesn't approve and is making We will be struggling

:43:50.:43:52.

to do this again because we can't use the health and social

:43:53.:43:55.

care budget to support people We are wasting money

:43:56.:43:58.

keeping people in hospital, which is expensive,

:43:59.:44:01.

when they don't need to be there. Social care was missed

:44:02.:44:04.

out of the Chancellor's Last month, councillors

:44:05.:44:08.

were told they can add an extra 3% to council

:44:09.:44:12.

tax bills to help pay for social care over

:44:13.:44:14.

the Each 1% that said only

:44:15.:44:15.

raises 2.7 million. We don't want and we shouldn't

:44:16.:44:22.

be a bill that the It should be sorted

:44:23.:44:24.

out at national level. But in a Commons

:44:25.:44:28.

debate this week, the Health Secretary Jeromy Hunt

:44:29.:44:30.

defended the Government's record in response to criticism

:44:31.:44:35.

from the Shadow Health Secretary, Social care last year,

:44:36.:44:38.

spending went up by He stood on a platform

:44:39.:44:41.

at the last election of not a penny more to local

:44:42.:44:48.

authorities for social care. To stand here as a defender of

:44:49.:44:50.

social care is, frankly, an insult to vulnerable people up and down

:44:51.:44:58.

the country but particularly people living under Labour councils

:44:59.:45:12.

like Hounslow, Merton and Eeling where they are refusing

:45:13.:45:14.

to raise the social care -- precept but complaining

:45:15.:45:17.

about social care funding. There have been called

:45:18.:45:26.

to take the politics out of social care,

:45:27.:45:28.

have an independent commission

:45:29.:45:30.

which discusses the best way forward

:45:31.:45:31.

in The Lib Dems go as far as saying

:45:32.:45:32.

there should be a tax to Others say the real problem

:45:33.:45:37.

is years of cutbacks. Sir Patrick McLoughlin,

:45:38.:45:40.

you have to admit that Meadowview, which we were looking at there,

:45:41.:45:42.

looked Surely it makes sense

:45:43.:45:44.

to allow more councils to build homes themselves rather

:45:45.:45:47.

than relying on the private sector. Well, Meadowview is actually in my

:45:48.:45:49.

constituency, you're quite right, but it was also on the planning

:45:50.:45:51.

by the last administration, the

:45:52.:45:53.

Conservative administration, when the county councils were being run

:45:54.:45:55.

by the Conservatives. I thought the way in

:45:56.:45:57.

which the dismissal of the extra money when it was said that 1%

:45:58.:46:10.

only raised 2.7 million. That's going to be

:46:11.:46:12.

an increase in an Derbyshire can have an increase

:46:13.:46:16.

of over ?8 million therefore

:46:17.:46:17.

in its social care budgets. So, the Government is listening

:46:18.:46:22.

and has made, and will They are raising the

:46:23.:46:28.

council tax, but they There was going to be

:46:29.:46:32.

a question as to how much money you put in

:46:33.:46:36.

and how you use resources But can you see a benefit of

:46:37.:46:38.

Meadowview? You but it's not something

:46:39.:46:43.

that your comment is In fact, people have

:46:44.:47:01.

said they have been too Even though they want

:47:02.:47:04.

to eat the NHS' problems, they have told they should

:47:05.:47:07.

rein back in, basically. It's up to the local authorities

:47:08.:47:09.

what they do with their The problem is keeping elderly

:47:10.:47:20.

people out of hospital. Saving any money, Britney back and social care.

:47:21.:47:25.

My understanding is that when a that plan, the Government said no.

:47:26.:47:28.

There is a real problem here with the

:47:29.:47:30.

Government thinking that the social care

:47:31.:47:34.

precept can fund the gap in

:47:35.:47:38.

In Derbyshire, just like in Leicester, the social care

:47:39.:47:41.

precept only makes up one third of the gap

:47:42.:47:43.

and the real problem is

:47:44.:47:44.

poorer areas are less able to raise money from the social care precept,

:47:45.:47:51.

so, in Leicester, we can raise about ?6.50 per head

:47:52.:47:53.

It will increase inequalities and my constituents

:47:54.:48:05.

Well, we've got to look at social care.

:48:06.:48:11.

We got to look across the whole piece.

:48:12.:48:13.

We asked Sir Simon Stephens how much extra was

:48:14.:48:15.

Before the last general election, he said that those extra ?8 billion

:48:16.:48:26.

We've committed an extra ?10 billion into the health service.

:48:27.:48:32.

People working in the health service are doing a fantastic job at the

:48:33.:48:35.

moment under very, very difficult circumstances.

:48:36.:48:36.

Is something that has happened at different times of a

:48:37.:48:38.

There's always extra pressures on the health service.

:48:39.:48:41.

Well, of course, but you say it's up to local areas to try and look at

:48:42.:48:45.

Nottinghamshire County Council called on the

:48:46.:48:48.

Government to commit an extra ?2.3 billion

:48:49.:48:50.

to social care, which is the

:48:51.:48:51.

saying is needed on top of what the

:48:52.:48:54.

I would expect Nottinghamshire County Council to pass

:48:55.:48:59.

a project like that and say it's got to be found by the Government

:49:00.:49:02.

The simple fact is, we've increased spending on the health

:49:03.:49:05.

service and obviously we've got to look at some of the issues which

:49:06.:49:11.

have come about as a result of some of the things

:49:12.:49:13.

we seen over the past few

:49:14.:49:15.

Miss Kendal, the Government, Jeremy Hunt, is saying there's an

:49:16.:49:18.

extra ?208 million in funding a into social care.

:49:19.:49:22.

And he is allowing councils to raise council tax.

:49:23.:49:24.

Overall, we have seen around ?4.5 billion cut

:49:25.:49:26.

from social care budgets in the Government came.

:49:27.:49:31.

Patrick, I want to see that money got forward.

:49:32.:49:35.

That doesn't come on until 2019 - 20.

:49:36.:49:37.

I also strongly support a cross-party look at one

:49:38.:49:39.

term funding issues for the NHS and social care.

:49:40.:49:41.

It's always going to be political, but I actually think,

:49:42.:49:46.

if you want a long-term solution, we are going

:49:47.:49:48.

to have to get round the

:49:49.:49:49.

We've tried it before, it's very, very difficult.

:49:50.:49:52.

But I've certainly supported calls from Norman Lamb

:49:53.:50:02.

Let's get round the table and look at it.

:50:03.:50:07.

But we do need an immediate cash injection

:50:08.:50:09.

because, otherwise, the system is really going to struggle.

:50:10.:50:11.

Well, the money has been made available.

:50:12.:50:13.

They are saying it's not enough, though,

:50:14.:50:16.

The NHS are saying it's not enough, councils are saying it's not

:50:17.:50:20.

They might we increase and brought forward.

:50:21.:50:23.

We asked how much was needed, recommitted Stewart.

:50:24.:50:24.

Labour did not commit to a 20 was a Labour front

:50:25.:50:29.

bench spokesman on the last general election.

:50:30.:50:31.

They did not commit to that extra funding.

:50:32.:50:33.

We've got to deal with the situation we

:50:34.:50:36.

There's no point in this debate going back and

:50:37.:50:39.

And that's certainly what we have done

:50:40.:50:44.

by the extra ?600 million that Jeremy Hunt has announced by giving

:50:45.:50:47.

By giving local authorities the extra power that

:50:48.:50:50.

they can to raise finance locally and spent that locally.

:50:51.:50:53.

Surely it's time to get round the table, which

:50:54.:50:55.

is what Liz is suggesting, and other people.

:50:56.:50:57.

The last Labour Government spent 30 years at a Royal

:50:58.:51:01.

There's been more talking about this.

:51:02.:51:07.

Are you against getting round a table and talking this?

:51:08.:51:14.

I think there's a lot that we can learn as we need

:51:15.:51:17.

I think the public gets sick about this when they are in an ambulance

:51:18.:51:23.

outside A and they can't get to see their GP.

:51:24.:51:25.

They would like us to get around the table.

:51:26.:51:36.

The Government has got to acknowledge what the state

:51:37.:51:38.

Are you in denial over the state of the NHS currently?

:51:39.:51:43.

We appreciate the tremendous work that

:51:44.:51:47.

there are doctors, nurses, front line staff, paramedics, people

:51:48.:51:49.

involved in the health service are doing.

:51:50.:51:51.

Well, you can see more on the state of the NHS in an Inside

:51:52.:51:55.

Out special programme tomorrow night at 7:30 here on BBC One.

:51:56.:51:58.

Now, as you already seen, 2017 is shaping up to

:51:59.:52:00.

be quite a contentious year in politics,

:52:01.:52:02.

but what does it hold for

:52:03.:52:03.

One person used to predicting the future is East

:52:04.:52:06.

Midlands today weather presenter Alex Hamilton.

:52:07.:52:08.

What you probably don't know is that Alex is also a

:52:09.:52:11.

So, we've asked her to do a special forecast looking at the

:52:12.:52:15.

outlook for the region's political weather for 2017.

:52:16.:52:17.

Well, predicting the weather is one thing but

:52:18.:52:19.

forecasting the ecological outlook is a real challenge.

:52:20.:52:29.

In the East Midlands, we seen some of the

:52:30.:52:33.

highest economic growth outside of London but also some of the lowest

:52:34.:52:39.

Some say Brexit will bring sunshine and blue skies,

:52:40.:52:43.

but others say an economic rainstorm will dampen the region's commercial

:52:44.:52:45.

Several Labour MPs mutinied against Jeremy Corbyn last

:52:46.:52:48.

Now, the winds of political change could blow through the

:52:49.:52:52.

revolving doors of Westminster again,

:52:53.:52:53.

but some familiar faces from the

:52:54.:52:59.

East Midlands may have to stay out in the cold for a little longer yet.

:53:00.:53:03.

Well, there was an icy reception for some East

:53:04.:53:11.

Midlands MPs in Theresa May's new regime but who'd

:53:12.:53:27.

thought that would be in the

:53:28.:53:28.

Reshuffles are notoriously hard to predict but, in the Primate

:53:29.:53:32.

of Brexit, that carousel of high and low pressure around the Cabinet

:53:33.:53:35.

It was a funny picture for much of 2016.

:53:36.:53:40.

When will that blanket of fog lift or not in 2017, the issue is so

:53:41.:53:56.

complex is likely there will be some mist patches surrounding finer

:53:57.:53:59.

And what about the electrification of the

:54:00.:54:02.

Will we be able to get to London at lightning speed?

:54:03.:54:05.

Or will there be a storm over delays to the project?

:54:06.:54:08.

The Government says it is committed, but East Midlands MPs on all sides

:54:09.:54:11.

And talking of rail, building has now started on the rail freight

:54:12.:54:15.

It promises a jet stream of jobs for the East Midlands.

:54:16.:54:19.

Opponents warn of a tornado of environmental problems.

:54:20.:54:22.

Or the lack of it here in the East Midlands?

:54:23.:54:29.

failure to agree with neighbours has left plans final

:54:30.:54:32.

Meanwhile, the sun shines on the devolution deal in

:54:33.:54:36.

Perhaps the Spring will allow new plans for our

:54:37.:54:43.

As we've been hearing, health looks set to

:54:44.:54:45.

Dark clouds seem to gather over some of

:54:46.:54:48.

Warnings about the closure of Glenfield Children's Heart Unit in

:54:49.:54:58.

Leicester and a review of several smaller hospitals could bring

:54:59.:55:00.

We'll have to stay tuned to the forecast to see how

:55:01.:55:05.

A units are under pressure and Emas was named the

:55:06.:55:19.

nation's worst performing and services for hospital handovers.

:55:20.:55:21.

A blizzard of calls in the New Year stretch the service even further.

:55:22.:55:24.

If the inclement conditions continue for Emas,

:55:25.:55:33.

create the perfect storm for the service in 2017.

:55:34.:55:36.

All in all, it's a changeable forecast for the

:55:37.:55:38.

Well, we told you she was a political geek.

:55:39.:55:45.

So, the electrification of the mainline.

:55:46.:55:54.

Patrick, you were Transport Secretary when that was given the

:55:55.:55:56.

again at what a lot of our regional MPs,

:55:57.:55:58.

labour and Conservative, are

:55:59.:56:00.

very concerned now that it would go ahead.

:56:01.:56:02.

Some of the work has already started and some of the

:56:03.:56:04.

changes that one sees as one goes from the trained in Derby to London

:56:05.:56:08.

Some of the double tracking just outside Corby is also

:56:09.:56:11.

Well, the trouble is, when you're working on a

:56:12.:56:23.

railway line which is a live railway line and in operation, it

:56:24.:56:29.

does take longer on those particular project, and we embarked on a huge

:56:30.:56:36.

investment as far as electrification across the country.

:56:37.:56:38.

Liz, your Labour colleague Lilian Green is one who has been very

:56:39.:56:46.

We haven't had a clear commitment about completing the

:56:47.:56:52.

project and, overall, we see nine times as much investment in rail

:56:53.:56:55.

infrastructure in wonder as he do in the East Midlands.

:56:56.:56:58.

Because when you're talking about that, your job and that the

:56:59.:57:13.

King's Cross is serving the east coast.

:57:14.:57:28.

You're quite right, there is a project across rail which is a

:57:29.:57:31.

big project in London, but that is part

:57:32.:57:32.

of the reason, one of the

:57:33.:57:34.

reasons why they've got things like HS2.

:57:35.:57:36.

This Government is committing more to transport than the

:57:37.:57:44.

last previous government ever did.

:57:45.:57:46.

the very past six years, we've done very badly in terms of

:57:47.:57:51.

We have the world's largest cluster of

:57:52.:57:56.

railway companies in the East Midlands.

:57:57.:57:57.

We really need to make the most of it and we need that because

:57:58.:58:01.

they want jobs and growth for the East Midlands

:58:02.:58:03.

to do even better in

:58:04.:58:04.

If the Government wants to balance the economy and get an

:58:05.:58:08.

economy working for everybody, it needs to do more for the East

:58:09.:58:10.

I buy how important infrastructure is.

:58:11.:58:14.

But 30 years of Labour governments, you've done ten

:58:15.:58:16.

miles of electrification in the country.

:58:17.:58:18.

I'd like to say it was at a snails pace.

:58:19.:58:21.

Your New Year's resolution, I believe, is to help

:58:22.:58:30.

We have some of the best clinical app comes as Glenfield.

:58:31.:58:39.

For public consultation, it will be announced later on this one.

:58:40.:58:44.

there working very closely with your hospital and campaigning.

:58:45.:58:49.

I think Liz has done a commendable job on that.

:58:50.:58:52.

I want to see people partake in a public exercise because

:58:53.:59:03.

the question is about heart service across the country and I think it's

:59:04.:59:06.

absolutely vital that this particular issue is...

:59:07.:59:08.

It shouldn't become a party political issue.

:59:09.:59:11.

We've got to make sure we've got the right answer for the region.

:59:12.:59:14.

Time for a round-up of some of the other political

:59:15.:59:18.

stories from the East Midlands this week in 60 seconds.

:59:19.:59:22.

petitions against plans to survey Sherwood Forest for shale gas.

:59:23.:59:39.

A firm wants to scan line under the forest to see if there is

:59:40.:59:43.

Derby is to get a share Government funding to

:59:44.:59:46.

create 9000 free childcare places around the country.

:59:47.:59:48.

The city will get part of ?2 million being

:59:49.:59:50.

allocated to six cold spots where lack of social mobility is a major

:59:51.:59:53.

They are facing higher council tax to pay for

:59:54.:59:58.

The county was when Police and Crime Commissioner wants it to

:59:59.:00:02.

centralise any amount of tax paying towards policing.

:00:03.:00:04.

It would add ?3.50 per year to the average bill and

:00:05.:00:07.

Having failed to agree on its own devolution deal,

:00:08.:00:10.

the East Midlands is now throwing a spanner in the

:00:11.:00:12.

Elections for a mayor there have been put back for more

:00:13.:00:22.

time to consult on by Chesterfield to join the scheme.

:00:23.:00:27.

And that is the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.

:00:28.:00:29.

Thanks to Liz Kendall and Sir Patrick McLoughlin

:00:30.:00:32.

Lillian Greenwood will be here next time.

:00:33.:00:40.

Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:41.:00:48.

after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:49.:00:50.

The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:00:51.:01:02.

again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:03.:01:04.

Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:05.:01:06.

In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:07.:01:10.

But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:11.:01:13.

Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:14.:01:16.

to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:17.:01:18.

You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:19.:01:34.

Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:35.:01:39.

organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:40.:01:41.

As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:42.:01:47.

writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:48.:01:52.

Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:53.:01:54.

I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:01:55.:01:58.

If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:01:59.:02:00.

The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:01.:02:08.

Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:09.:02:10.

The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:11.:02:23.

change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:24.:02:27.

being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:28.:02:31.

in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:32.:02:36.

as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:37.:02:39.

and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:40.:02:43.

should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:44.:02:47.

Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:48.:02:50.

have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:51.:02:54.

doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:55.:02:57.

specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:02:58.:03:01.

He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:02.:03:07.

to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:08.:03:11.

talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:12.:03:15.

the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:16.:03:19.

can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:20.:03:23.

boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:24.:03:27.

magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:28.:03:35.

carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:36.:03:43.

has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:44.:03:47.

the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:48.:03:51.

heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:52.:03:55.

ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:03:56.:03:59.

says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:00.:04:03.

from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:04.:04:08.

you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:09.:04:12.

press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:13.:04:15.

or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:16.:04:22.

off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:23.:04:26.

just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:27.:04:32.

This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:33.:04:36.

nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:37.:04:43.

know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:44.:04:46.

the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:47.:04:49.

with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:50.:04:54.

leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:04:55.:05:00.

You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:01.:05:07.

read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:08.:05:11.

doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:12.:05:14.

different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:15.:05:20.

has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:21.:05:23.

ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:24.:05:27.

right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:28.:05:31.

might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:32.:05:37.

his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:38.:05:40.

not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:41.:05:45.

This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:46.:05:49.

political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:50.:05:52.

wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:53.:05:55.

background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:05:56.:05:59.

stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:00.:06:03.

internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:04.:06:06.

whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:07.:06:14.

in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:15.:06:18.

campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:19.:06:24.

hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:25.:06:29.

years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:30.:06:32.

kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:33.:06:36.

so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:37.:06:39.

during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:40.:06:42.

Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:43.:06:46.

election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:47.:06:50.

had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:51.:06:54.

as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:55.:06:58.

In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:06:59.:07:00.

entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:01.:07:06.

It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:07.:07:07.

foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:08.:07:13.

disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:14.:07:17.

ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:18.:07:21.

dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:22.:07:27.

any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:28.:07:30.

deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:31.:07:39.

-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:40.:07:43.

accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:44.:07:47.

want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:48.:07:51.

tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:52.:07:55.

communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:07:56.:07:59.

successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:00.:08:02.

argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:03.:08:06.

irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:07.:08:13.

say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:14.:08:15.

that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:16.:08:20.

you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:21.:08:25.

the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:26.:08:28.

said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:29.:08:33.

in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:34.:08:36.

love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:37.:08:41.

red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:42.:08:46.

us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:47.:08:52.

speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:53.:08:54.

that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:08:55.:08:58.

thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:08:59.:09:02.

maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:03.:09:09.

Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:10.:09:11.

yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:12.:09:14.

and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:15.:09:16.

you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:17.:09:18.

hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:19.:09:22.

to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:23.:09:26.

the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:27.:09:28.

them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:29.:09:31.

them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:32.:09:33.

them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:34.:09:35.

in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:36.:09:40.

but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:41.:09:43.

every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:44.:09:46.

and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:47.:09:49.

where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:50.:09:51.

there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:52.:09:53.

and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:54.:09:55.

because of the debts they are going to end up

:09:56.:09:57.

with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:09:58.:10:05.

Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:06.:10:08.

has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:09.:10:12.

on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:13.:10:17.

They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:18.:10:22.

it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:23.:10:25.

clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:26.:10:29.

first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:30.:10:33.

going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:34.:10:37.

mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:38.:10:42.

position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:43.:10:46.

say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:47.:10:51.

In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:52.:10:55.

Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:10:56.:11:02.

are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:03.:11:05.

what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:06.:11:09.

80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:10.:11:13.

left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:14.:11:17.

leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:18.:11:22.

across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:23.:11:25.

later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:26.:11:32.

There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:33.:11:34.

moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:35.:11:37.

angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:38.:11:40.

on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:41.:11:44.

this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:45.:11:48.

When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:49.:11:52.

posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:53.:11:57.

has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:11:58.:12:06.

Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:07.:12:08.

resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:09.:12:11.

Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:12.:12:14.

Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:15.:12:20.

incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:21.:12:24.

look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:25.:12:27.

disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:28.:12:30.

attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:31.:12:34.

potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:35.:12:38.

Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:39.:12:43.

him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:44.:12:48.

comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:49.:12:52.

what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:53.:12:57.

stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:12:58.:13:00.

messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:01.:13:03.

you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:04.:13:05.

time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:06.:13:08.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:09.:13:10.