12/02/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his


impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.


The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.


But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?


Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.


And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election


later this month, where Ukip is looking to give


And in the East Midlands, the Brexit hotspots -


we'll be looking at a detailed report into how our region voted.


And women forced to wait years for their pension prepare


And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise


Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.


I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.


So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability


to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain


The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views


in front of an audience of students at Reading University


This may not be popular with some people in this audience -


I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,


partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,


and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,


and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies


of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big


Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does


he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,


it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether


there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the


last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have


the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy


Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who


pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had


enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell


the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running


commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit


negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone


maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well


prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --


David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his


position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of


excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a


guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical


lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know


his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has


given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour


which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a


class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready


replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not


force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and


the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is


untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to


fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he


will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It


will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to


someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to


life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,


whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of


Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a


mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the


referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to


debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He


chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no


desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind


of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he


doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.


Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into


his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think


that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of


Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.


Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving


like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine


doing that. It is good he is different.


The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50


and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through


Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote


with their conscience, their constituency,


Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,


is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.


So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:


Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,


we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.


It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.


On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill


was voted through by the House of Commons.


The bill left the Labour Party divided.


Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result


of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -


But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip


That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.


Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,


the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.


However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,


even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.


The Conservative Party were much more united.


The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.


Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.


His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.


The bill will now go to the House of Lords -


peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.


Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at


He's got a book out next month called


Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.


Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the


referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now


becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it


certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics


more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left


and right division has been making way for a new division, between


essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an


incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so


it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is


that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social


democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,


that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to


know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at


what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at


by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the


Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the


possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to


be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are


traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving


the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not


just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would


become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a


party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S


seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the


cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can


seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the


traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are


offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social


Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not


saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of


stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often


gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you


look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German


Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a


referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on


April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of


social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by


that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would


still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are


trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who


think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very


difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of


coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.


Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather


than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European


Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now


seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the


issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue


of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015


or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the


so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It


is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,


to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that


cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might


go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.


Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House


of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill


in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged


the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker


with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin


went one further - mooting the possibility


of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate


the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question


in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government


time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end


of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this


House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale


reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins


me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let


win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a


matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's


remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running


commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as


speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about


nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some


opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any


particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.


I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I


have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he


handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is


some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come


on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have


you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its


job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,


Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has


to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the


House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and


expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all


of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say


scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking


carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,


hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable


expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,


to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that


the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is


seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper


House and the House of Lords performs it pretty


Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first


clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go


ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,


this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.


There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got


through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are


you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?


No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of


amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all


drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.


This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or


not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of


it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the


British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons


voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by


the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that


when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before


parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been


an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government


has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the


amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on


whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the


House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact


I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should


think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of


British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on


clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you


concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go


back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned


that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?


Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of


ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords


failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It


would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of


us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole


country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a


rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,


that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts


to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that


make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper


chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among


those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of


Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we


should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a


second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very


clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has


been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and


what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it


becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.


One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it


goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back


again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two


chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and


complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of


Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain


machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my


experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,


and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want


to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.


Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.


Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.


The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were


changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the


amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do


the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right


thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or


cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We


will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will


scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We


will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote


on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.


That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if


you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If


the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will


happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly


legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are


talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament


and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for


Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of


negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a


process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get


this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back


to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and


it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the


Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of


March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think


Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the


normal process. Unless the government get things right the


first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are


reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking


about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any


vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,


the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government


I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be


on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed


it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to


that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is


important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the


ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know


long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?


I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do


not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when


we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate


these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is


not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look


again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords


decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with


what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on


all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are


saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to


have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a


referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear


result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but


there are things which are not good about the process that we think


could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum


which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that


passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not


contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper


house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite


other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from


the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then


forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not


necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could


do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not


unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote


in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of


abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and


absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of


Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government


and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when


the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying


to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to


the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if


the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for


the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like


Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and


appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to


defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would


suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is


a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in


history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge


or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in


defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour


can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right


every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like


Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people


who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I


don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make


amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for


the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments


to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to


stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying


that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is


inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the


House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean


we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will


happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May


has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.


Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week


There are two by-elections round the corner -


one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central


where the former Shadow Education Secretary,


Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role


as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.


But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency


Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring


as their candidate in a by-election bout to see


At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here


But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,


because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.


70% of people voted to leave the European Union.


I'm the only candidate standing in this election


who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave


the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person


But he has had to fight off allegations


he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.


Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?


Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.


Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.


The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election


and focus on something which is banal nonsense.


And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.


He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series


of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words


I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery


on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that


I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.


It was done quite after the referendum result and it


was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months


after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.


Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,


she had failed to give any meaningful statement


about what Brexit meant other than bland statements


about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.


The context of it was it was out of frustration.


So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here


I never mean to insult anybody and you know,


I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member


of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect


the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.


I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.


While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.


I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority


is about the economy and to ensure we still have an


Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop


a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.


It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.


Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.


The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.


He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.


He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.


30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else


is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.


It is still something people care about.


We are only at the start of the Article 50 process


We are very a clear that we are standing up for those


who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs


Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.


Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.


I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.


We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this


And here is a full list of all the candidates standing


in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.


They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website


as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition


party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a


government. All the speculation is where the


opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an


equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held


traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by


the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of


these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the


leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.


Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the


years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like


Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,


Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are


more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more


diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent


evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up


the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope


lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would


suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear


too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it


still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is


a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,


over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I


mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they


had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what


they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over


the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an


era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a


regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,


but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do


split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is


still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and


Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently


that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the


current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be


a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current


Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about


Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think


that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the


mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour


candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is


is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has


done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember


speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after


the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and


this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one


particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to


play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win


it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has


made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,


are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were


saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the


moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to


overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has


been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,


but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why


I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.


At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these


by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for


Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been


in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.


We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of


this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.


In the East Midlands, women on the march.


# When I get older, dyeing my hair...#


Thousands affected by changes to their pension age


Over 2.6 million women across the UK have


lost ?36,000, up to ?40,000 out of a planned pension pot, which


And the Brexit hotspots, and the polling


centre which exactly matched the national results.


A new survey produces a detailed map of how the


region voted, but has anyone changed their mind?


I think it will do the country good. So...


Get it back to English-grown produce.


We could start trading in other countries


I had no big reason to vote to stay in, I just thought


it was a logical reason to stay in, because I think it's more


Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and my guests this week -


Mark Spencer is the Conservative MP for Sherwood, and Margot Parker


is a Ukip member for the European Parliament


And let's start by looking at a story raised in


A Derbyshire headteacher who normally runs marathons


for charity is having to raise funds for his school instead.


Dave Shaw is head of the Spire Primary School in Chesterfield,


which is facing a ?19,000 cut in its budget.


His case was raised by Toby Perkins at this week's


The headteacher, Dave Shaw, was running


However, her new school's funding formula means that


Spire Junior School now faces the biggest cuts


Running for cash is now the only alternative to sacking staff.


Mark Spencer - Dave Shaw, there, used to


Running marathons for charity is one thing, but having


to run to pay his staff's wages - that's mad!


Yes, I think clearly every pupil, whether they are in


Chesterfield or in Sherwood, should get the same amount of funding right


across the country and that's what we're trying to achieve.


At the moment, a pupil in Nottinghamshire


If you compare that to Islington, to pick a


constituency at random, that's over ?6,000 per pupil, and even if you


consider the London weighting of that, that's


So, the good news is that Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire on average, when


we apply this new formula, win on average.


So I think you've got to bring balance to the country so that


a pupil in Sherwood gets the same cash as a pupil anywhere else.


And headteachers like Dave don't have to


go running to try to get money to pay the wages.


This isn't just a one-off, though, Mark, is it?


The PTA, the charity which supports parents,


reported just over a week ago that more than a third of


parents are being asked to contribute to school funds to top it


Well, I mean, I think if you go back, parent teacher associations


have existed forever, and there's always


something else you can buy to


Yes, but this is for books and things like that that children need


So, we need to make sure that the funding system for our


schools is fair right across the country,


and whether you are a pupil here in Nottinghamshire or


Derbyshire or Leicestershire, you get the same support, the same


amount of cash, as anywhere else in the country,


Margot Parker, what do you think about this?


I think clearly it's got to be balanced out.


It's not right that somebody runs to handle load of


It's not right that somebody runs to hand a load of


money over in order to be able to maintain a teacher or maintain


breakfast at school, or whatever it is they are trying to do.


There should be an equal playing field.


You can't mess around with education - it's got to be fair.


Yes, it's massive, it's not acceptable.


It's worth pointing out, at the moment


it's not fair, so there are schools who are


getting a lot less cash in


Nottinghamshire than in other parts of the country.


Well, to be quite honest, education is very


I mean, at the end of the day, it has to be found from


I'm not an education spokesperson, but I can tell you


that you got to have a fairness, you got to have kids that,


if they don't get breakfast, a breakfast is


That's important, because no child should


have to start the day hungry, or any other way.


So, wherever it comes from, I think it has to be found, because


the children are the future, at the end of the day.


It's not their fault - we have to really look after them.


Well, hundreds of women from across the East Midlands


are planning to join a national protest in London next month


The so-called Waspis, or Women Against State Pension Inequality,


are angry that changes to their retirement age


have left them having to work longer than planned


Our political reporter Helen McCulloch's been


# Send me a forecast, drop me a line, try to change your mind.


# Indicate precisely what you mean to say, Waspi women,


The Waspi campaign began two years ago when women born


Two pensions acts aimed at bringing women's retirement age in line


with men meant women born in the 50s would have to wait until they were


Campaigners say they were never informed of the changes,


We're very angry and very frustrated, and I've completely lost


all trust in the government and politicians and systems


I paid a full stamp, and I honestly thought


I would get my pension when I reached 60,


I organised this big party, everything, thinking...


And two weeks before this, then I get told off,


Tricia Clough is one of the main coordinators of the campaign,


and insists the government failed to inform millions of women


The government are saying, we've put it out on the news,


we had a news item, and we also put little articles in newspapers.


We've had women who've lost their partners, who have had


We've had some women who had to go on jobseekers' schemes,


which they've found really difficult emotionally, physically...


Meetings like this are happening up and down the country,


and it seems the Waspi movement shows no signs of slowing down,


but not everybody has welcomed their campaign.


If the Waspi campaign got their way, which was for


If the Waspi campaign got their way, which was for a bridging pension


in the 1950s, then a woman born on the 1st of January 1960 would not


only see her classmate one day older gets six years of tension


only see her classmate one day older gets six years of pension


that she would not get, but she would have to paperback


that she would not get, but she would have to pay for that


through higher national insurance contributions and higher taxes.


I can't see how that is in anyway fair.


The other group of I think who are grossly discriminated


The Department for Work and Pensions say that the decision to equalise


the state pension age was made over 20 years ago, and there are no


My husband's retired now, and the two of us


We are just having to scrape through.


Making sure their voices are heard is a key priority for this campaign.


The next step, a march on Parliament on budget day.


# Will you still bleed me, corrupt and greedy,


That's what those women are saying, Mark Spencer, and you


probably recognise them, because some of them are actually your


constituents and I know that you've met them, and actually,


they say that you've been very dismissive of


Well, I've met them a number of times, actually.


I've met them certainly in the constituency, I've


met them in London when they came to London.


I think there's some good news in this in that clearly society


has changed, women's roles have changed since the 1950s.


Of course we are living a lot longer, so...


They haven't got enough money for their retirement.


If you go back to the 50s, people would retire at 65 as a


man and probably would pass away in their early 70s.


Now we are all living to, sort of, 80 plus,


These women say they've never really had


equality, and now this is happening to them.


So, the pension needs to adapt to those circumstances, and


we've got to be fair to those women coming behind, to the 18-year-old


girl who is coming out of university who's


going to have to fund this


system, so we've got to get the balance right.


The government has listened, actually, and made ?1 billion


of concessions, so it only makes about a year's difference


OK, Margot Parker, the women fighting this change feel


that they haven't really been given enough notice on this, as you heard


Is that really fair, though, actually?


Because the law's been in place for nearly 20 years now.


Yes, it has, and I am quite sorry for them,


because I think, to be honest, you know, they will have


brought their children up, they will often have had jobs


where they are perhaps working in local government,


you know, not terribly well paid, paid their contribution, thought


they were going to get their pension, and then, this particular


group, I think, you know, also take care


their families, so I think you've got a balance there where they are


But there has to be a cut-off, doesn't that?


Because what about people who were born in the 1960s?


Well, this is true, but there has got to


people are paid today so that they can actually


They've got to have the dignity of a reasonable pension


that they can survive on, because, if they said, well, I've only got


this amount of money, and frankly, I can't pay my bills...


This is an issue where dignity is really important,


because it is very harsh for some of the 500,000 women


They have paid into their pensions, they were expecting to see some of


Some of them are having to go onto Jobseeker's


Allowance, and they say that's degrading -


they shouldn't have to be doing that, Mark.


Wherever you draw the line, someone is going to lose out.


But should they be on Jobseeker's Allowance?


Wouldn't you rather they get the money that they've put in?


I think, to be fair, my mother is 70,


My mother in law is 71, and she's still working,


so lots of women are fit and able to work and enjoy that, actually


government, then, write to these women


individually and say, this is


what's going to happen, it unique to prepare


what's going to happen, it, you need to prepare


for this, we're letting you


I mean, to be fair, Mark, we all got letters about


There was an enormous amount of coverage in the


media and in the press, and lots of women were written to.


Now, some of the Waspi women are saying they


Now, of course, there's no way of knowing


whether those letters arrived or not, or...


There wasn't enough notification, maybe they should have


There was an enormous amount of coverage,


though, in the press, about the equalisation


women's pensions having to equalise and come at the same time.


We've got to be fair to everybody, so, for those


But how can we afford to compensate these women,


how could we afford to compensate them?


It's a question of balancing looking after people that


I mean, dare I go onto the foreign aid


budget, maybe I shouldn't, but, you know, there is money,


Not ?30 billion, which is what it's going to cost.


Not everybody in their 50s is saying they do help.


What about giving to those who really are in more need


Targeted help to help them, would that be a way of


I think that's probably quite sensible.


I think you've got to judge cases are they are, and


people who have to care for, you know, very sick people,


and they are not really being helped.


I mean, a lot of people give up their lives,


give up perhaps going back into work because they've got sick relatives.


You know, I'd like to see a fair system there so that they are not


There is a carer's allowance system, of course.


To help people in those circumstances.


These people are having to compete, as well,


Women in their early 60s are going to try and find jobs


younger people are going for as well.


You want young people to get those jobs.


I think women of that generation actually make very good


I'm just saying what these women feel about being made to feel


guilty, in a way, Mark, that's what they're saying.


I'd be disappointed if they felt guilty,


I think that would be wrong, if they were to feel like that.


The fact that they are having to compete with


I think we need to recognise where we are out, and


I think we need to recognise where we are at, and


there is this enormous challenge in the budget and an enormous


properly, and that's what the government is doing.


That March is on March the 8th in London.


Now, it's been another week in which Brexit has dominated


the political scene, with the East Midlands


politicians once again at the forefront of the debate.


The Grantham MP, Nick Bowles, who is being treated for cancer, left


Meanwhile, Brockstowe's Anna Soubry couldn't hide her disgust


at some of the debate, and Chris Leslie


tabled dozens of amendments, which were all ignored.


Of 35 amendments that I have tabled today, I've not been


Doesn't it prove that the whole of the curtailing of this debate leaves


Parliament and able to scrutinise the EU withdrawal?


Parliament unable to scrutinise the EU withdrawal?


So, looking at that vote in the Commons,


government whip, of course, Ken Clarke was the only Tory who decided


Did the whips tried to persuade him otherwise, or


His commitments on Europe are well-known, and frankly, I admire


him for that, for standing his ground, and defending his well-known


position that he's had for a number of years.


Now, of course, as the government, we need to recognise


that the people took a decision to take it of Europe.


that the people took a decision to take us of Europe.


The government has to deliver that, and that's


And a number of colleagues, including Chris Leslie,


frankly, were just trying to slow the process,


delay it and block it, and I think that is a travesty,


Are you happy now, Margot, that this has passed through


We are definitely going to be leaving?


Well, yes, I mean, we are making a start, you know, and


the heavy ground digging work, I suppose, takes place between the


Council of Ministers and our own Brexit Minister, David Davis, who I


think probably will do a very good job.


Well, what happens in the European Parliament


now, though, Margot, with


all this activity in the Commons, do you just feel like you're on the


sidelines as spectators, really, as a party?


I mean, every day, we go through all sorts of


things, you know, there are certain things we still have to clearly vote


Immediately after Brexit, there was a very strong, very anti-UK mood


Even our country's name was dragged off the


I mean, it was put back two or three days later.


Did it feel like this was a piece of history, this vote, Mark?


It really did feel like it was a significant moment in our history,


We'll look back at this moment, hopefully, through


rose coloured spectacles, and say what a fantastic moment it was in 20


years' time when we are trading with countries all over the world.


Passions obviously running very high in the Commons.


But away from Parliament, the BBC has been


carrying out its own analysis of how the voting went in the referendum.


It has looked at the results from individual polling stations and


found one place here in the East Midlands


where the voting exactly matched the national results.


Our political editor Tony Rowe has been


The 527 people who cast their votes in this pub polling station


represent exactly the split between Remain and Leave in the country.


51.99% voted that way when they walked


into the pub to vote, so the


picturesque villages of Mackworth and Kirk Langley, where Amber Valley


meets Derby, are an exact barometer of how we feel is a country about


Joe Wickes flies the cross of St George


I think if there was a big vote again, I do think a


lot of people would change their minds,


because I think a lot of


people like myself didn't realise how big it was, this Brexit thing,


In Nottingham, the vote to Leave was narrow, but


Bulwell marketplace is of course where the


former city trader and then Ukip leader chose to bring his bust


former city trader and then Ukip leader chose to bring his bus


Shall we hum the theme tune, The Great Escape?


We would be better off without the EU.


We give too much money away and get no thanks for it.


I think it would do the country good.


Get it back to English grown produce.


We could start trading in other countries apart from the EU, so it


Research into how we voted also shows that older people were more


Those we spoke to here certainly fit the bill.


Ethnic minorities were less likely to vote to Leave.


There are concerns about people's attitudes to anyone perceived,


Because you're talking about immigrants, as well.


All over the world there's immigrants, no matter which way you


Where is all the immigrants going to go?


Over on the other side of city, we have the


Radford Park Ward, where they voted heavily to Remain.


The research concluded that this part of Nottingham fits in with


I think it's more of a community to stay together.


I feel like when people start breaking up, it's like, that's


The report, which examined how over 1,000 wards voted, shows a


strong link with educational qualifications and voting.


The better educated voted to Remain, the


It could be about more than that, though.


Poorer areas who feel left out, left behind, wanting to blame


someone, accepting this simple argument to join the great escape


from the EU, to make things better for them.


Well, one thing that this BBC survey found, Margot Parker,


But it's happened, and everybody, I do believe, wants us to get


Let's sort it, let's get it fixed, let's go out and let's


get good contracts around the world, let's


make sure businesses in the


East Midlands thrive, and all over the country, for that matter.


There is a lot to be thankful for, that we


As the world's fifth-largest economy we've got a lot to look forward to.


But we did also hear that ethnic voters tended to vote


Remain, and that they obviously still have a lot of concerns.


What would you say to those ethnic voters?


I would say, frankly, this will be sorted.


I mean, nobody is likely to be asked to leave the country.


I think that scaremongering of the very worst order.


There is that fear, though, isn't there?


Well, yes, but I think it's up to the government,


actually, to calm that down and to say to people, look,


of course we will resolve this, there won't be a problem.


Clearly if you're here and you're working in the NHS, you will


be working in the NHS and are most welcome to do so.


So, if you have the skills, we are very happy.


I think it's the large unskilled swathes of population coming in that


we simply cannot afford to have, we can't afford, because all of the


cascading down onto society makes a tremendous


burden, so, fairness, but


let's take care of people that are from Europe that work here.


OK, well, with opinions so mixed, Mark, how do you


actually go about representing your constituents when you have such a


mix of views and feelings about this?


So, you have to do what's right, and what is right is getting


the best deal for the United Kingdom...


You can't represent them all, though.


I think you clearly can't represent the more in


I think you clearly can't represent them all in


terms of Remain or Leave, but I think we need to recognise that


Remain and Leave has gone now, we are leaving


the European Union, that


was the democratic will of the people,


and so we need to get the


best deal for the United Kingdom, we need to make sure our relationships


with our European colleagues improve and continue to trade with them and


look to the rest of the world and continue to build our economy so


that the jobs and prosperity flow down to those people who are my


And you supported Remain whilst your constituents


wanted to Leave, so how do you square that circle?


Well, you have to take democracy on the chin,


frankly, and, you know, Leave won, so we now


have to commit to that and


deliver what we can for the United Kingdom,


and that comes down to the


best deal we possibly can squeeze out of our European colleagues.


They want to trade with us as well, it's


a two-way street, so let's get out there,


in the rest of the world as


well, and, you know, build the economy


Well, that's the message here in the studio!


Time now for a round-up of some of the other


political stories from the


Grantham's Accident Emergency unit is to remain


closed overnight because of a shortage of doctors.


Lincolnshire Hospitals Trust says it's committed


to reopening the unit, and is looking to recruit staff.


Campaigners have dismissed the plan to open the service for an extra


Derby City Council is to set up a crowdfunding


website to raise money for small community projects.


The authority is to spend ?45,000 setting up a


platform on the Crowdfunder website, and will invite local groups to list


Meanwhile, Derbyshire County Council has announced plans to increase


It will add ?46 a year to the average band D household bill.


A drive to have more electric taxis in Nottingham has been


Nottingham has some of the worst air pollution figures in the country.


The council wants to see more low emission vehicles


The plans will also include a new code of conduct for drivers


And that is the Sunday Politics here in the East Midlands.


Thanks to our guests this week, Mark Spencer


and Margot Parker, for joining us here in the studio.


After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,


MPs are having a little break this week as we head into


But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -


let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.


There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The


budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this


Government because it moves to the autumn.


That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably


about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,


then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next


President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour


leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of


March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew


Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to


block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised


if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination


to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think


one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor


the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you


think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it


would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name


the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a


good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics


for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in


our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can


find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to


time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change


politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger


than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal


Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would


suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does


get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay


that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have


another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary


of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the


table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have


done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew


Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back


but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal


Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not


the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the


European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know


because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch


taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at


the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a


play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first


in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish


Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that


will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.


You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a


national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing


France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A


reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in


the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected


elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal


views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them


to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le


Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the


future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are


were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some


problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in


the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a


number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of


people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She


thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't


got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to


play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,


not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how


much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting


on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from


European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see


what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do


know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get


through to the second round. He could come firth but the


centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would


say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to


saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le


Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,


it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as


in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had


got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has


transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the


French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April


23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he


was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,


this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership


election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,


but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this


parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear


message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you


are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media


performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,


things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win


2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their


offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking


well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might


like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going


to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he


the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership


is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide


to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is


not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be


the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas


would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if


we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general


election, which means you have another itration of this, another


five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour


moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general


election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for


the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn


going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment


being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated


the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.


Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had


their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest


they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any


indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is


now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what


he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another


attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question


enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a


daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about


winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of


two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself


will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half


hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some


people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another


three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it


lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be


under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this


level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the


idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the


people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and


they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most


of people were let alone most of the public.


Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership


potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the


Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That


is it. Now, there's no Daily


or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back


on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics


on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from


a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -


they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover


to reveal the real cost


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby present the latest political news, interviews and debate and are joined by shadow leader of the House of Lords Baroness Smith and Conservative Oliver Letwin. Plus live leadership hustings. The political panellists are Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer from talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.

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