26/02/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


26/02/2017

Andrew Neil is joined by Kezia Dugdale, Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society, while Marie Ashby's guest is Vernon Coaker.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:41.:00:46.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:47.:00:47.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:48.:00:49.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:50.:00:51.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:52.:00:53.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:54.:00:55.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:56.:00:58.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:59.:01:08.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:09.:01:13.

And in the East Midlands... mocked for talking about the impact

:01:14.:01:20.

Council tax is going up but services are still being cut.

:01:21.:01:22.

And the children who do not own a toothbrush - a new campaign

:01:23.:01:26.

In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local

:01:27.:01:32.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:33.:01:38.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:39.:01:41.

to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:42.:01:49.

I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

:01:50.:01:53.

but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:54.:01:56.

We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

:01:57.:02:06.

Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

:02:07.:02:11.

British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:12.:02:15.

may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:16.:02:20.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:21.:02:25.

credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:26.:02:30.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:31.:02:34.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:35.:02:38.

they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

:02:39.:02:42.

hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:43.:02:46.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:47.:02:52.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:53.:02:59.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:03:00.:03:03.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:04.:03:08.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:09.:03:12.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:13.:03:18.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:19.:03:22.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:23.:03:27.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:28.:03:33.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:34.:03:40.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:41.:03:45.

opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:46.:03:49.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:50.:03:53.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:54.:03:59.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:04:00.:04:04.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:05.:04:08.

very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:09.:04:12.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:13.:04:18.

wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:19.:04:21.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

:04:22.:04:26.

of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:27.:04:29.

under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

:04:30.:04:33.

two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:34.:04:40.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

:04:41.:04:43.

operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:44.:04:48.

to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

:04:49.:04:51.

disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

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would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

:04:56.:05:01.

coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:02.:05:05.

moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:06.:05:12.

might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:13.:05:15.

anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:16.:05:18.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:19.:05:24.

slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:25.:05:28.

transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:29.:05:32.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

:05:33.:05:36.

and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

:05:37.:05:41.

which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

:05:42.:05:44.

today. Thursday was a big night

:05:45.:05:45.

for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

:05:46.:05:47.

significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

:05:48.:05:52.

to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

:05:53.:06:00.

the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

:06:01.:06:05.

a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

:06:06.:06:09.

were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

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on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

:06:13.:06:16.

is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

:06:17.:06:22.

strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

:06:23.:06:25.

to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:26.:06:27.

in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

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in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

:06:31.:06:33.

Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:34.:06:38.

places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

:06:39.:06:46.

by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

:06:47.:06:49.

Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

:06:50.:06:50.

winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

:06:51.:06:53.

where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

:06:54.:06:56.

onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

:06:57.:07:00.

that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

:07:01.:07:03.

here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

:07:04.:07:11.

played down the defeat, insisting his party's

:07:12.:07:18.

time would come. Are you going to stand again

:07:19.:07:21.

as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

:07:22.:07:27.

don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

:07:28.:07:30.

the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:31.:07:39.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

:07:40.:07:42.

it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

:07:43.:07:47.

the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

:07:48.:07:51.

votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

:07:52.:08:03.

is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:04.:08:07.

but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

:08:08.:08:09.

points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

:08:10.:08:21.

I think is an incredible The morning after the night

:08:22.:08:25.

before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

:08:26.:08:29.

and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:30.:08:33.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:34.:08:36.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

:08:37.:08:43.

a second age for us. So that needs to be

:08:44.:08:46.

more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

:08:47.:08:50.

you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:51.:08:53.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

:08:54.:09:02.

we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:03.:09:05.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:06.:09:07.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:08.:09:12.

for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:13.:09:15.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:16.:09:18.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:19.:09:23.

leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:24.:09:26.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:27.:09:28.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:29.:09:35.

since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

:09:36.:09:38.

looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

:09:39.:09:41.

could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:42.:09:46.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:47.:09:53.

a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:54.:09:56.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:57.:10:02.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:03.:10:07.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:08.:10:18.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:19.:10:21.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:22.:10:23.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:24.:10:28.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:29.:10:30.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:31.:10:33.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:34.:10:49.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:50.:10:52.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:53.:10:57.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

:10:58.:11:05.

support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:06.:11:07.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:08.:11:11.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:12.:11:14.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

:11:15.:11:18.

while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:19.:11:25.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:26.:11:28.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:29.:11:32.

to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:33.:11:37.

committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:38.:11:43.

committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:44.:11:48.

Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:49.:11:54.

Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:55.:11:59.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

:12:00.:12:04.

election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

:12:05.:12:08.

the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:09.:12:12.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:13.:12:15.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:16.:12:18.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:19.:12:22.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:23.:12:27.

invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:28.:12:30.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:31.:12:37.

a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:38.:12:40.

by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

:12:41.:12:45.

federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:46.:12:49.

ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:50.:12:53.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:54.:13:00.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:01.:13:05.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:06.:13:10.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:11.:13:15.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:16.:13:21.

Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:22.:13:28.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:29.:13:32.

is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:33.:13:35.

prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:36.:13:39.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:40.:13:44.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:45.:13:48.

there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:49.:13:52.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:53.:13:56.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:13:57.:14:01.

happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:02.:14:06.

people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:07.:14:09.

evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:10.:14:15.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:16.:14:20.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:21.:14:23.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:24.:14:28.

here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:29.:14:33.

What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:34.:14:37.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:38.:14:40.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:41.:14:45.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:46.:14:48.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:49.:14:52.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:53.:14:55.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:56.:15:00.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:01.:15:08.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:09.:15:11.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:12.:15:13.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:14.:15:16.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:17.:15:20.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:21.:15:21.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:22.:15:31.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:32.:15:35.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:36.:15:40.

promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:41.:15:43.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

:15:44.:15:49.

not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

:15:50.:15:52.

Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:53.:15:57.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:58.:16:01.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:02.:16:06.

in this country. It is not united on that

:16:07.:16:29.

issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

:16:30.:16:33.

yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:34.:16:35.

like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:36.:16:37.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:38.:16:40.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:41.:16:42.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:43.:16:44.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:45.:16:46.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:47.:16:49.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:50.:16:52.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:53.:16:55.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:56.:16:59.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:17:00.:17:04.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:05.:17:08.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:09.:17:13.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:14.:17:17.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:18.:17:23.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:24.:17:26.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:27.:17:31.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:32.:17:46.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:47.:17:50.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:51.:17:52.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:53.:17:55.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:56.:17:57.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:58.:18:01.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:02.:18:05.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:06.:18:13.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:14.:18:17.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:18.:18:21.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:22.:18:27.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:28.:18:32.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:33.:18:37.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:38.:18:41.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:42.:18:47.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:48.:18:52.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:53.:18:55.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:56.:19:01.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:02.:19:04.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:05.:19:09.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:10.:19:13.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:14.:19:22.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:23.:19:26.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:27.:19:30.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:31.:19:34.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:35.:19:38.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:39.:19:43.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:44.:19:49.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:50.:19:55.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:56.:19:58.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:19:59.:20:03.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:04.:20:07.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:08.:20:11.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:12.:20:12.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:13.:20:14.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:15.:20:16.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:17.:20:19.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:20.:20:21.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:22.:20:31.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:32.:20:35.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:36.:20:41.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:42.:20:46.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:47.:20:49.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:50.:20:53.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:54.:20:59.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:21:00.:21:05.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:06.:21:10.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:11.:21:15.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:16.:21:20.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:21.:21:25.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:26.:21:29.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:30.:21:34.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:35.:21:36.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:37.:21:53.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:54.:21:55.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:56.:21:57.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:58.:22:00.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:01.:22:02.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:03.:22:06.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:07.:22:12.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:13.:22:18.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:19.:22:25.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:26.:22:30.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:31.:22:33.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:34.:22:38.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:39.:22:44.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:45.:22:49.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:50.:22:53.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:54.:22:55.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:56.:23:12.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:13.:23:14.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:15.:23:16.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:17.:23:18.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:19.:23:21.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:22.:23:24.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:25.:23:29.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:30.:23:33.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:34.:23:37.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:38.:23:41.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:42.:23:44.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:45.:23:50.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:51.:23:55.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:56.:24:01.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:02.:24:05.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:06.:24:10.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:11.:24:14.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:15.:24:19.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:20.:24:24.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:25.:24:32.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:33.:24:35.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:36.:24:38.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:39.:24:41.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:42.:24:46.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:47.:24:50.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:51.:24:54.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:55.:24:59.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:25:00.:25:04.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:05.:25:09.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:10.:25:13.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:14.:25:17.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:18.:25:24.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:25.:25:30.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:31.:25:33.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:34.:25:40.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:41.:25:45.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:46.:25:48.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:49.:25:52.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:53.:25:58.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:25:59.:26:01.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:02.:26:07.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:08.:26:12.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:13.:26:15.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:16.:26:21.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:22.:26:24.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:25.:26:29.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:30.:26:33.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:34.:26:39.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:40.:26:42.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:43.:26:47.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:48.:26:51.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:52.:26:58.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:26:59.:27:03.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:04.:27:06.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:07.:27:11.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:12.:27:16.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:17.:27:19.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:20.:27:24.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:25.:27:28.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:29.:27:32.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:33.:27:37.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:38.:27:42.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:43.:27:47.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:48.:27:51.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:52.:27:56.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:57.:28:01.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:02.:28:05.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:06.:28:10.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:11.:28:13.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:14.:28:15.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:16.:28:16.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:17.:28:20.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:21.:28:21.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:22.:28:30.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:31.:28:33.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:34.:28:37.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:38.:28:39.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:40.:28:43.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:44.:28:45.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:46.:28:48.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:49.:28:50.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:51.:29:00.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:01.:29:02.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:03.:29:09.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:10.:29:11.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:12.:29:19.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:20.:29:22.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:23.:29:30.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:31.:29:33.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:34.:29:35.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:36.:29:37.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:38.:29:43.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:44.:29:45.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:46.:29:51.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:52.:29:54.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:55.:30:07.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:08.:30:09.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:10.:30:25.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:26.:30:29.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:30.:30:33.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:34.:30:38.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:39.:30:43.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:44.:30:47.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:48.:30:51.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:52.:30:59.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:31:00.:31:03.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:04.:31:09.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:10.:31:14.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:15.:31:21.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:22.:31:26.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:27.:31:30.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:31.:31:35.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:36.:31:40.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:41.:31:45.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:46.:31:48.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:49.:31:54.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:55.:32:00.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:01.:32:05.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:06.:32:09.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:10.:32:12.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:13.:32:17.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:18.:32:21.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:22.:32:27.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:28.:32:32.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:33.:32:38.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:39.:32:43.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:44.:32:48.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:49.:32:53.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:54.:33:01.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:02.:33:06.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:07.:33:11.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:12.:33:14.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:15.:33:20.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:21.:33:26.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:27.:33:30.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:31.:33:34.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:35.:33:41.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:42.:33:46.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:47.:33:50.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:51.:33:55.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:56.:33:59.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:34:00.:34:05.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:06.:34:08.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:09.:34:14.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:15.:34:19.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:20.:34:22.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:23.:34:29.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:30.:34:32.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:33.:34:36.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:37.:34:40.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:41.:34:44.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:45.:34:48.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:49.:34:57.

enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:34:58.:35:03.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:04.:35:08.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:09.:35:12.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:13.:35:17.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:18.:35:22.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:23.:35:25.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:26.:35:30.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:31.:35:33.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:34.:35:41.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:42.:35:48.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:49.:35:53.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:54.:35:56.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:57.:36:01.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:02.:36:04.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:05.:36:09.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:10.:36:16.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:17.:36:22.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:23.:36:27.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:28.:36:31.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:32.:36:35.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:36.:36:41.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:42.:36:45.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:46.:36:48.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:49.:36:54.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:55.:37:04.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:05.:37:14.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:15.:37:18.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:19.:37:24.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:25.:37:28.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:29.:37:35.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:36.:37:39.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:40.:37:43.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:44.:37:47.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:48.:37:52.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:53.:37:57.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:58.:38:01.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:02.:38:06.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:07.:38:10.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:11.:38:13.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:14.:38:18.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:19.:38:21.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:22.:38:26.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:27.:38:34.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:35.:38:40.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:41.:38:45.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:46.:38:50.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:51.:38:54.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:55.:38:58.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:38:59.:39:02.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:03.:39:06.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:07.:39:12.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:13.:39:15.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:16.:39:19.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:20.:39:22.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:23.:39:27.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:28.:39:33.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:34.:39:38.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:39.:39:43.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:44.:39:48.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:49.:39:52.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:53.:39:57.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:58.:40:00.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:01.:40:14.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:15.:40:17.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:18.:40:19.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:20.:40:23.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:24.:40:24.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:25.:40:27.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:28.:40:29.

the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:30.:40:45.

Council tax is on the rise but we'll still face cuts to services

:40:46.:40:49.

Councils here say they're getting a raw deal from the Government.

:40:50.:40:54.

Nottingham has received nothing, Derby has received nothing,

:40:55.:40:56.

And the campaign to fight tooth decay in children

:40:57.:41:01.

moves into the classroom, where some are already

:41:02.:41:03.

You've got your big teeth and if you eat too much

:41:04.:41:07.

sugar and they fall out, you will not get any more.

:41:08.:41:10.

David Tredinnick is the Conservative MP for Bosworth and Vernon Coaker

:41:11.:41:18.

First, let's get your reaction to this week's by-elections...

:41:19.:41:27.

Labour, of course, holding on in Stoke-on-Trent,

:41:28.:41:29.

beating off the Ukip challenge, but getting trounced

:41:30.:41:31.

in Copeland in Cumbria, losing a solid Labour seat

:41:32.:41:33.

So, Vernon Coaker, the East Midlands Labour Party did

:41:34.:41:43.

play a major role in campaigning in Stoke-on-Trent, hardly a big

:41:44.:41:45.

As far as Stoke is concerned, it was really important

:41:46.:41:51.

for the Labour Party to have defeated Ukip.

:41:52.:41:58.

We have heard a lot from Ukip and Paul Nuttall in particular about the

:41:59.:42:03.

way in which they were going to become the true representatives of

:42:04.:42:07.

the working class, coming to the Midlands and the North of England,

:42:08.:42:10.

to the traditional Labour seats, and it will go into us there. We have

:42:11.:42:14.

the leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall, going to one of the biggest

:42:15.:42:19.

majorities for Brexit, in the whole of the country, let alone the East

:42:20.:42:24.

Midlands, and he loses. He perhaps is not done yet. Perhaps, but he is

:42:25.:42:29.

in Stoke. He thought he was going to win. Not a good result in Copeland.

:42:30.:42:34.

You were campaigning with Jeremy Corbyn Tom Stalker, that cannot have

:42:35.:42:38.

been easy given that you resign from his cabinet. He is the leader of the

:42:39.:42:42.

party, he was elected. You campaign with the leader of the party. We

:42:43.:42:46.

campaigned hard in ten seam-mac. We made sure people were aware of our

:42:47.:42:50.

for some of the things he had said for some of the things he had said

:42:51.:42:54.

that he wanted. David, I detect some that he wanted. David, I detect some

:42:55.:42:58.

quiet satisfaction amongst conservatives. But perhaps the

:42:59.:43:02.

Tredinnick shows that they will be Tredinnick shows that they will be

:43:03.:43:05.

harder to defeat than expected. If Ukip had put up a better candidate,

:43:06.:43:11.

the Conservatives would have one Stoke because the vote would have

:43:12.:43:16.

held up. It was only because Ukip were unable to get at the labour

:43:17.:43:20.

vote that they did not win. In Copeland, we had the best result

:43:21.:43:27.

since 1878, and not only that, we have strengthened the Prime

:43:28.:43:32.

Minister's can immeasurably in negotiations in Brexit, so they are

:43:33.:43:35.

international ramifications here, in which he is not the strongest leader

:43:36.:43:40.

in Europe because she had demanded that no Prime Minister has had for

:43:41.:43:43.

100 years, and that is winning a seat from the opposition when in

:43:44.:43:48.

government. Vernon, there will be a lot of browbeating after the result

:43:49.:43:52.

in Copeland. Jon Ashworth on Twitter said this was so disappointing, a

:43:53.:43:57.

bit of an understatement. Lifelong Labour supporters turning their back

:43:58.:44:00.

on the party after more than 80 years. It would be ridiculous to say

:44:01.:44:04.

it was anything other than a bad result for Labour in Copeland. It

:44:05.:44:11.

was a bad result but a good local candidate and campaign but in the

:44:12.:44:15.

end we lost the vote. Was that down to Jeremy Corbyn? There was an issue

:44:16.:44:19.

around nuclear power and our support for that although we tried to

:44:20.:44:23.

reassure people about that. We have to think clearly long and hard about

:44:24.:44:26.

the way in which we will respond to that defeat and how we persuade

:44:27.:44:31.

people that we might have some of the answers to the problems.

:44:32.:44:34.

Certainly before the elections any month of May, not long to go till

:44:35.:44:37.

then. Next, the amount we pay to our local

:44:38.:44:41.

councils is set to rise, but local authorities

:44:42.:44:45.

are still warning we'll Councils have been working

:44:46.:44:46.

out their tax charges for the coming year,

:44:47.:44:49.

with increases of up But they warn they still don't

:44:50.:44:51.

have enough money to pay Our political reporters have been

:44:52.:44:55.

taking a look at what it means How we care for the elderly

:44:56.:45:00.

and the disabled has become the major issue to affect

:45:01.:45:04.

all of our councils. In Nottingham, adult social care

:45:05.:45:07.

accounts for around one third of the city's spending and some

:45:08.:45:09.

of that goes to pay for centres like this,

:45:10.:45:12.

the Martin Jackaman Centre in Aspley that provides specialist care

:45:13.:45:14.

for those with physical Labour-controlled Nottingham City

:45:15.:45:16.

Council have criticised the Government for what they have

:45:17.:45:18.

said are unfair cuts that mean disadvantaged areas like Nottingham

:45:19.:45:23.

are missing out The poorer the area,

:45:24.:45:25.

the more that they have lost. The poorest areas in this country,

:45:26.:45:29.

and Nottingham is the 20th, It is a scandal that

:45:30.:45:31.

has yet to be told. There is billions and billions

:45:32.:45:37.

being transferred from the North And it is a similar picture

:45:38.:45:40.

in the county with Labour leader Alan Rhodes writing

:45:41.:45:44.

to the Chancellor last week, urging him to address

:45:45.:45:46.

what he called the funding crisis Nottinghamshire County Council has

:45:47.:45:48.

lost around ?200 million in funding since 2010 and are proposing

:45:49.:45:55.

a rising council tax In Nottingham City it will be

:45:56.:45:58.

an extra ?1 a week on the average council tax bill to make up

:45:59.:46:05.

for losing ?82 million in funding Derby City Council has a budget

:46:06.:46:08.

shortfall of ?14 million this year, so it is cutting back

:46:09.:46:17.

on non-statutory services, that is the things that it does

:46:18.:46:19.

not have to do by law, and instead is asking

:46:20.:46:23.

for the public's help to Now, charities and individuals

:46:24.:46:25.

will be able to apply for that funding to pay for,

:46:26.:46:30.

well, pretty much anything, from self-defence classes to flower

:46:31.:46:32.

beds and help for the homeless. The project is costing ?45,000

:46:33.:46:36.

to set up and the council is putting in ?60,000 of funding to help

:46:37.:46:43.

those appeals along. Now, there is only one problem

:46:44.:46:46.

with the whole crowdfunding Who fancies putting their hands

:46:47.:46:49.

into their pockets? Now over to Tim Parker

:46:50.:46:58.

for the picture in Leicestershire. Here in Leicester and

:46:59.:47:04.

Leicestershire, we have already seen some big budget cuts

:47:05.:47:06.

across community services. Let us take a look at

:47:07.:47:08.

some of the figures. In Leicestershire,

:47:09.:47:11.

they have made budget cuts They need to save a further

:47:12.:47:13.

?66 million by 2020, of which ?23 million has yet

:47:14.:47:19.

to be identified. Leicester City Council has said it

:47:20.:47:23.

has had to make budget cuts of ?100 million

:47:24.:47:26.

between 2010 and 2016. Its target was to save a further

:47:27.:47:31.

?55 million by 2020. ?22 million of this has

:47:32.:47:34.

yet to be identified. Here, in Leicestershire,

:47:35.:47:39.

we have already seen the closure and demolition of the mining museum

:47:40.:47:43.

in Snibston, and our smallest libraries in the county

:47:44.:47:48.

are being handed over to communities to run, like this one in Thurmaston,

:47:49.:47:50.

and a couple of the volunteers Carole, firstly, do you think

:47:51.:47:54.

it is right that local people should No, the council should run it,

:47:55.:48:00.

but as there is not the money available to run it,

:48:01.:48:07.

then the only way we can do Well, Joe is 16, you are

:48:08.:48:09.

volunteering here as well, why? This is for my Duke

:48:10.:48:14.

of Edinburgh Silver Award and I want to help towards the local

:48:15.:48:17.

community and to complete my award. A couple of volunteers

:48:18.:48:21.

here in Thurmaston. All 39 of Leicestershire's smallest

:48:22.:48:23.

libraries will be handed over to their local communities

:48:24.:48:25.

in the next few months. This is Tim Parker,

:48:26.:48:28.

in Leicestershire. So, in Leicestershire, David, the

:48:29.:48:40.

conservative cancer, as you well know, one of the lowest funded per

:48:41.:48:43.

head in the whole of the country, they are regularly lobbying MPs like

:48:44.:48:51.

yourself. Are you listening? -- Conservative centre. Yes, because we

:48:52.:48:55.

will see changes to the funding of councils, a fairer system. Better to

:48:56.:49:00.

get resources. How will it be fair? The money will be Bicester we did

:49:01.:49:05.

more in accordance with the EU and we will look at the rural parts.

:49:06.:49:08.

There will be improvements. One of the things that has happened is

:49:09.:49:14.

increased funding for social care. As we go through the transition,

:49:15.:49:17.

we'll be bring social care and the health budgets together under the

:49:18.:49:24.

auspices of the organisations. It is not all bad news. As far as

:49:25.:49:27.

volunteers are concerned, it is surely better to let the community

:49:28.:49:35.

run them. They do not have much choice as we heard. The Deputy

:49:36.:49:40.

Leader of Nottingham City Council, Mr Chapman, he has said that they

:49:41.:49:42.

are getting no help from the government to cope with the cuts

:49:43.:49:45.

while better of councils done in the south of the country are. He has

:49:46.:49:52.

described that as a national scandal. He might tell you that but

:49:53.:49:55.

he is wrong. There will be a fairer distribution of raids across the

:49:56.:49:58.

country. At the moment, some of the major cities get twice as much money

:49:59.:50:03.

as the individual as people in my constituency, for example, and have

:50:04.:50:07.

areas of deprivation just as they exist in Birmingham. So you do not

:50:08.:50:12.

feel that areas are missing out? The East Midlands will have a fairer

:50:13.:50:18.

distribution system in the future. It does not matter who you talk to,

:50:19.:50:24.

it is the local government Association, the Institute for

:50:25.:50:27.

Fiscal Studies or any of the local bodies, P Dettori, labour, whatever,

:50:28.:50:31.

and Mr Darby, whatever, they all recognise that the system is unfair,

:50:32.:50:36.

we are unfairly funded. The south gets better funding than we do and

:50:37.:50:40.

even under the fairer funding images that David talks about, that will

:50:41.:50:44.

not change, they will still be a discrepancy and it will mean that

:50:45.:50:47.

people in Leicestershire, in Nottinghamshire, in Derbyshire, in

:50:48.:50:50.

the cities, they will receive a worse level of service. They will

:50:51.:50:54.

not get the level of funding needed, whether it is social care, housing,

:50:55.:50:59.

and so on. The idea that we have community volunteers looking after

:51:00.:51:02.

libraries because it is a good policy decision, it has nothing to

:51:03.:51:05.

do with policy, it is the only be to ensure that they remain open. That

:51:06.:51:13.

is the truth, David, is it not? There is a change, younger people

:51:14.:51:16.

are not going to libraries, they are going online. They cannot go to them

:51:17.:51:22.

if they are not open. There is a decline in demand for libraries, but

:51:23.:51:25.

I very much welcome the idea of local people helping to save local

:51:26.:51:32.

libraries when they are targets for reductions to funding. But David,

:51:33.:51:35.

they are only doing that because it will close. Everybody wants

:51:36.:51:40.

volunteering but it is to supplement services, not as a replacement for

:51:41.:51:44.

essential services, surely? If you have got a county funded library and

:51:45.:51:47.

there are pressures on the budget, surely it is better that local

:51:48.:51:50.

people who love books help in the libraries rather than see them

:51:51.:51:57.

close? Should the Labour Party be going along with these cuts in the

:51:58.:52:00.

first place? We have to balance the budget, it is illegal not to do so.

:52:01.:52:04.

No one is suggesting anyone should act in an illegal manner. But labour

:52:05.:52:10.

councils are doing what they can to protect the people affected by the

:52:11.:52:15.

worst of this Tory austerity. It has been suggested that money should be

:52:16.:52:19.

taken out of the reserves right now to lessen the cuts. The council is

:52:20.:52:23.

breaking into ?70 million but the Tories have said they could take

:52:24.:52:28.

more, is that wise to suggest? There are always choices to make but the

:52:29.:52:33.

reality is that if you look at each of the hospitals, for example, in

:52:34.:52:37.

our region. Just did not University Hospital, there are people on

:52:38.:52:41.

average, 52 people per day, it cannot get out of hospital because

:52:42.:52:47.

there is not social care support mechanisms available to them. It is

:52:48.:52:50.

a regional and national scandal and the governments son around and tell

:52:51.:52:53.

you that it has provided some money, councils have put up their attacks

:52:54.:52:57.

there is a crisis. Social care is there is a crisis. Social care is

:52:58.:53:00.

one of the biggest concern is one of the biggest concerns is that we're

:53:01.:53:02.

facing. The Health and Social Care Act was taken to in the last

:53:03.:53:07.

Parliament and I am a member of the Health Committee which I chair from

:53:08.:53:10.

time to time. It brings together health and social care. We have a

:53:11.:53:14.

huge increase in demand for services because people are living longer and

:53:15.:53:18.

they require more care. One of the things we must do is to encourage

:53:19.:53:22.

people to look after themselves. They can do that by not getting

:53:23.:53:28.

overweight, by taking exercise, there must be education and we do

:53:29.:53:33.

not have that. If there are other systems such as homoeopathic

:53:34.:53:36.

medicine that I have supported over the years where you can keep a

:53:37.:53:38.

of remedies at home, try treating of remedies at home, try treating

:53:39.:53:42.

yourself before you even get to your doctor. But what would that solve?

:53:43.:53:47.

One of the problems is demand or daughters which continues to rise.

:53:48.:53:51.

We do not have a social care crisis because the elderly are overweight!

:53:52.:53:55.

We have a social care crisis because there is a shortage of funding.

:53:56.:53:59.

There are people medical are set to be discharged from hospital to go

:54:00.:54:02.

into the community and they cannot go because there is not a care home

:54:03.:54:06.

place or a social care support package available. There is a crisis

:54:07.:54:10.

in our social care. It is a problem with funding,

:54:11.:54:26.

not that people are overweight. People should be looking after

:54:27.:54:28.

themselves. We must have responsibility to do that as well.

:54:29.:54:31.

Overweight people have a greater likelihood of heart attacks and

:54:32.:54:33.

diabetes, that means they will spend more time in hospital and harder to

:54:34.:54:36.

discharge. Some would say that your government is simply passing the

:54:37.:54:38.

buck with these austerity cuts and beating the council do your dirty

:54:39.:54:40.

work for them. You have to have a budget, it is not just councils. One

:54:41.:54:43.

of the reasons there have been some reductions in supply of money for

:54:44.:54:48.

local government to make good the deficit which the Labour Party left

:54:49.:54:53.

us with when they left power. To have a successful economy with low

:54:54.:55:00.

taxes and businesses that are thriving, you have to have some

:55:01.:55:02.

control over government expenditure, you cannot just write checks for

:55:03.:55:04.

everything. OK. There's a new campaign

:55:05.:55:09.

in East Midlands schools to tackle Dental teams have found that some

:55:10.:55:12.

children in deprived parts of the region don't even

:55:13.:55:16.

own a toothbrush and children younger than ten have needed surgery

:55:17.:55:18.

to have their teeth removed. Here's our political

:55:19.:55:21.

editor, Tony Roe. At school today, these

:55:22.:55:22.

children in Nottingham are learning a lesson in life,

:55:23.:55:27.

it is a lesson not to Right, so we are just doing

:55:28.:55:30.

a check-up for you today, Sean. You've got your big teeth

:55:31.:55:34.

and if you eat too much sugar and they fall out,

:55:35.:55:37.

you will not get any more. And you would have

:55:38.:55:40.

to have fake teeth. Southwark Primary is one of three

:55:41.:55:42.

schools in Nottingham being used as a pilot for what is called

:55:43.:55:48.

the Teeth Team. It is a scheme developed in Hull,

:55:49.:55:52.

where the problem of decaying children's teeth is the worst

:55:53.:55:55.

in the country. You get multiple extractions under

:55:56.:55:59.

general anaesthetic, which is obviously not a good thing

:56:00.:56:03.

to put a child under. They can have problems

:56:04.:56:06.

with speech... Obviously, they come to school

:56:07.:56:07.

in pain, which is not good. They have time off school due

:56:08.:56:14.

to the pain and dental visits. Let us have a look with the magic

:56:15.:56:17.

mirror, open wide... The Nottingham North MP Graham Allen

:56:18.:56:21.

fears his city is not that far behind Hull,

:56:22.:56:23.

which is why he asked What they found in their work

:56:24.:56:25.

shocks the assumptions Some children do not even

:56:26.:56:29.

have a toothbrush at home, so what we're finding

:56:30.:56:34.

is that they are taking these skills home with them and then hoping

:56:35.:56:36.

that they carry on that message and that routine for

:56:37.:56:39.

the rest of their lives. A combination of sugary drinks,

:56:40.:56:41.

poor diet and lack of brushing means that tooth decay is the main reason

:56:42.:56:46.

why five to nine-year-olds It costs the health service ?30

:56:47.:56:49.

million each year to treat children, In the most deprived parts

:56:50.:56:53.

of the East Midlands, there are examples of some children

:56:54.:57:02.

who have had to have They want to expand the Teeth Team

:57:03.:57:05.

project into every primary school. They say it will save money,

:57:06.:57:12.

but more important than that, Back at Southwark Primary,

:57:13.:57:15.

they value the lessons and the input The feedback from parents has

:57:16.:57:26.

been extremely positive and also from our pupils

:57:27.:57:30.

and teachers as well. So we are delighted

:57:31.:57:33.

with the success. Everything we can do to promote

:57:34.:57:35.

those healthy lifelong habits is a positive benefit

:57:36.:57:39.

to all of our community. A child with healthy teeth means

:57:40.:57:42.

that they do not have pain from the aching and they can

:57:43.:57:45.

take lessons home. What we're hoping is to instil that

:57:46.:57:49.

good routine that they will take with them and obviously

:57:50.:57:52.

teach their children What will also help, according

:57:53.:57:54.

to the dental professionals, is adding fluoride to the water

:57:55.:57:57.

supplies, especially The local MP is pressing

:57:58.:57:59.

for that to happen. It is truly shocking, isn't it, to

:58:00.:58:12.

hear that children younger than ten have already lost some of their

:58:13.:58:17.

adult teeth? Why can this be happening in the 21st century? This

:58:18.:58:21.

government is introducing a sugar tax to bear down on the amount of

:58:22.:58:23.

sugar in drinks, that is really important. We have clearly got a

:58:24.:58:28.

problem that parents are not taking their children to dentists and there

:58:29.:58:30.

might have to be a requirement that might have to be a requirement that

:58:31.:58:38.

they do so. They might have to be legislation to make this happen. We

:58:39.:58:40.

cannot have a situation where children was a lot of teeth. It is

:58:41.:58:44.

almost a form of abuse. Are you being -- are you blaming the parents

:58:45.:58:49.

or the sugary drinks? Both. Parents must understand they have an

:58:50.:58:52.

obligation to look after the health of their children. That is fair

:58:53.:58:57.

enough, isn't it, Vernon Coaker? It is obvious to say that parents have

:58:58.:59:04.

an obligation to look after their children and clearly they must

:59:05.:59:06.

ensure that children clean their teeth. But some parents cannot

:59:07.:59:11.

access an NHS dentist and their teeth fall the date, it is the for

:59:12.:59:16.

more likely that their children's teeth might follow suit. That could

:59:17.:59:22.

be true and we might have to look at the position of school dentists and

:59:23.:59:27.

so on. But there is an issue around parents have a responsibility.

:59:28.:59:32.

Clearly, as they would have said, I am not sure about meeting a legal

:59:33.:59:35.

requirement but there are issues around sugar and payments, it is

:59:36.:59:39.

unacceptable and we are not doing well enough at the present time. We

:59:40.:59:42.

will hear more about the sugar tax in the upcoming budget in March,

:59:43.:59:47.

what more can you tell us? Well, I do not know what will be in the

:59:48.:59:54.

budget, but I know that companies are going to pay more tax if there

:59:55.:59:57.

is no sugar. The number of dentists, that issue was dealt with about a

:59:58.:00:00.

decade ago, dentists increased through training. That is not the

:00:01.:00:05.

problem that it used to be but we have to find those children that are

:00:06.:00:08.

suffering and it does mean that people have got to take more

:00:09.:00:14.

responsibility for their own lives, their health, obesity and the lives

:00:15.:00:17.

of their children. We need a new culture which is almost like the old

:00:18.:00:21.

culture, where there was more self-help rather than constantly

:00:22.:00:24.

asking others to solve problems, constantly going to the doctor went

:00:25.:00:28.

for simple complaints they could have been treated by other remedies

:00:29.:00:34.

at home. I have quoted homoeopathic medicine, try it out. If it is

:00:35.:00:38.

serious, go to the doctor, but if not, do not waste their time. Would

:00:39.:00:45.

schools across the country? What, schools across the country? What,

:00:46.:00:53.

fluoride is in? -- what the use of fluoride? No, the idea of a Teeth

:00:54.:00:59.

Team going into schools and helping them? Absolutely. Try to make it

:01:00.:01:05.

easier for schools and parents, toothbrushes are incredibly cheap.

:01:06.:01:08.

But there must be a demand that we do not let these children fall into

:01:09.:01:12.

a state where it cost the health service a fortune. Would the Labour

:01:13.:01:18.

Party support a sugar tax? We are willing to explore it, it would

:01:19.:01:22.

depend how it is done, but something clearly needs to be done and a sugar

:01:23.:01:26.

tax is one option for sugary drinks and so on. I think that the example

:01:27.:01:34.

used at that school where that school dental project, and not sure

:01:35.:01:40.

what it was called. The Teeth Team. That is correct. It was expanded and

:01:41.:01:48.

spread out, the cost in the short term will be better than the

:01:49.:01:54.

long-term damage. So you would be supportive of that, more programmes

:01:55.:01:58.

like that across the country? What about the use of fluoride, is that

:01:59.:02:02.

the answer, yes or no? Nottingham is not the only place to have a problem

:02:03.:02:08.

with bad teeth. Yes, the use of fluoride is one possibility. There

:02:09.:02:15.

is some controversy. I am in favour. Thank you very much.

:02:16.:02:16.

Time now for a round-up of some of the other political stories

:02:17.:02:19.

The National Union of Teachers in Leicestershire wants parents

:02:20.:02:26.

to lobby MPs over cuts to school funding.

:02:27.:02:28.

It says it could mean redundancies for teachers and support staff.

:02:29.:02:32.

The Government has said its new funding formula

:02:33.:02:34.

Firms in the East Midlands are calling for an overhaul

:02:35.:02:39.

The East Midlands Chamber says the system is broken and wants

:02:40.:02:43.

a scheme linked to a company's ability to pay rather

:02:44.:02:45.

The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt wants a review of the overnight

:02:46.:02:51.

closure of A services at Grantham Hospital.

:02:52.:02:55.

Three MPs, including Grantham's Nick Boles,

:02:56.:02:58.

who is being treated for cancer, have met the Prime Minister

:02:59.:03:01.

The Nottingham by-election veteran David Bishop,

:03:02.:03:04.

better known as Bus Pass Elvis, is retiring from politics

:03:05.:03:07.

But he said he is reserving the right to return and the name

:03:08.:03:14.

is already registered with the Electoral Commission.

:03:15.:03:16.

Elvis And The Yeti Himalayan Preservation Party -

:03:17.:03:18.

That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands,

:03:19.:03:31.

thanks to Vernon Coaker and David Tredinnick.

:03:32.:03:33.

Next week Edward Argar and Willy Bach will be here.

:03:34.:03:35.

Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain

:03:36.:03:57.

leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way

:03:58.:04:01.

through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an

:04:02.:04:05.

intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.

:04:06.:04:12.

Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is

:04:13.:04:17.

going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll

:04:18.:04:20.

tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,

:04:21.:04:25.

that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't

:04:26.:04:30.

think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and

:04:31.:04:34.

Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion

:04:35.:04:40.

led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already

:04:41.:04:44.

moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how

:04:45.:04:49.

much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating

:04:50.:04:54.

that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of

:04:55.:04:59.

the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week

:05:00.:05:04.

on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind

:05:05.:05:07.

of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring

:05:08.:05:16.

that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords

:05:17.:05:20.

with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of

:05:21.:05:26.

it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a

:05:27.:05:31.

large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the

:05:32.:05:36.

Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as

:05:37.:05:41.

soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on

:05:42.:05:45.

Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and

:05:46.:05:50.

peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has

:05:51.:05:53.

all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in

:05:54.:05:58.

place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and

:05:59.:06:02.

the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them

:06:03.:06:08.

already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they

:06:09.:06:12.

were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they

:06:13.:06:17.

won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The

:06:18.:06:21.

question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The

:06:22.:06:25.

Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,

:06:26.:06:28.

but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in

:06:29.:06:33.

the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May

:06:34.:06:37.

because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in

:06:38.:06:43.

Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when

:06:44.:06:46.

they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain

:06:47.:06:50.

and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the

:06:51.:06:53.

moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional

:06:54.:06:58.

propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me

:06:59.:07:04.

the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of

:07:05.:07:08.

democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to

:07:09.:07:13.

cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.

:07:14.:07:17.

Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the

:07:18.:07:26.

Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and

:07:27.:07:30.

have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the

:07:31.:07:34.

timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,

:07:35.:07:38.

Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting

:07:39.:07:45.

that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party

:07:46.:07:49.

but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the

:07:50.:07:53.

most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this

:07:54.:07:57.

point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her

:07:58.:08:02.

timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel

:08:03.:08:04.

Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small

:08:05.:08:14.

group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is

:08:15.:08:19.

the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple

:08:20.:08:23.

of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the

:08:24.:08:29.

President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather

:08:30.:08:33.

close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is

:08:34.:08:38.

now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.

:08:39.:08:45.

Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not

:08:46.:08:51.

only close to the president but to a series of people within the

:08:52.:08:54.

administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to

:08:55.:08:59.

keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into

:09:00.:09:04.

that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can

:09:05.:09:10.

feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of

:09:11.:09:16.

negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and

:09:17.:09:20.

what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over

:09:21.:09:24.

later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into

:09:25.:09:28.

what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about

:09:29.:09:31.

our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among

:09:32.:09:35.

some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast

:09:36.:09:40.

with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet

:09:41.:09:43.

ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and

:09:44.:09:48.

we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind

:09:49.:09:53.

of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and

:09:54.:10:01.

that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no

:10:02.:10:04.

doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing

:10:05.:10:09.

the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it

:10:10.:10:17.

through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the

:10:18.:10:21.

president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically

:10:22.:10:25.

rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is

:10:26.:10:29.

his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is

:10:30.:10:33.

one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it

:10:34.:10:36.

isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said

:10:37.:10:47.

for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just

:10:48.:10:56.

look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor

:10:57.:11:00.

there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to

:11:01.:11:06.

go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which

:11:07.:11:12.

has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a

:11:13.:11:16.

serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more

:11:17.:11:20.

money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems

:11:21.:11:24.

there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people

:11:25.:11:28.

argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit

:11:29.:11:32.

but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.

:11:33.:11:39.

And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and

:11:40.:11:42.

the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and

:11:43.:11:47.

months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will

:11:48.:11:50.

have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to

:11:51.:11:56.

the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was

:11:57.:11:59.

remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If

:12:00.:12:03.

he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or

:12:04.:12:07.

another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she

:12:08.:12:11.

is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of

:12:12.:12:15.

the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.

:12:16.:12:21.

Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,

:12:22.:12:27.

magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are

:12:28.:12:33.

that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,

:12:34.:12:37.

rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to

:12:38.:12:42.

throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of

:12:43.:12:46.

this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to

:12:47.:12:50.

find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.

:12:51.:12:56.

I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim

:12:57.:12:59.

settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but

:13:00.:13:04.

they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in

:13:05.:13:10.

the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens

:13:11.:13:15.

promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,

:13:16.:13:20.

he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more

:13:21.:13:23.

important because that is when people will feel the cost living

:13:24.:13:25.

squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:26.:13:27.

on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at

:13:28.:13:31.

the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:32.:13:34.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:35.:13:40.

Andrew Neil is joined by Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society. Marie Ashby's guest is Vernon Coaker, while Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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