19/03/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by head of NHS Providers Chris Hopson, Nick Clegg MP and Andrew Gwynne MP.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,


After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.


With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,


Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.


NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission


impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,


unless hospitals are given more cash this year.


In the East Midlands: Providers joins me live.


The former refugees leaving countries in


Europe to settle in Leicester drawn in by its multi-cultural mix.


Are we doing enough to help prisoners back into work?


All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking


to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg


from his party's spring conference in York.


With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,


three of the country's top political commentators:


Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.


They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.


So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.


As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,


the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum


on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts


to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key


budget measure just one week after announcing it.


Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week


Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First


Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.


She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK


By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's


future will be decided, not just by me, the


Scottish Government, or the


SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.


Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject


amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to


The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned


attempts to change it and it becomes law.


But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.


Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.


We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the


We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling


the planned rise in National Insurance for


the self-employed announced the budget.


It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.


The trend towards greater self-employment does create a


We will bring forward further proposals


but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this


It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.


By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues


fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax


Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the


Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending


But that's not what the Prime Minister


Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a


We should be working together, not pulling apart.


We should be working together to get that


right deal for Scotland, that


So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and


so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.


Friday and time for the faithful to gather.


SNP activists at their spring conference


Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister


promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.


At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly


I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The


Evening Standard and, you know, with so many


big issues in our world what


good analysis, great news journalism.


It's a really important time for good journalism that The


Evening Standard is going to provide.


There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals


Under my proposals we keep the Barnett


Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the


and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.


And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the


What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,


Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign


of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the


events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with


the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy


periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and


try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.


Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or


so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily


the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel


more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential


drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your


original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic


quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory


backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school


funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will


get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.


Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister


said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime


Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done


quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in


frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,


OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has


already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with


Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle


for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality


bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same


time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge


to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and


Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it


reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is


over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is


how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is


not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a


normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more


mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible


workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to


call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she


tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a


second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the


rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this


week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to


her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She


expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for


her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows


66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off


with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second


referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined


with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her


calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,


I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your


desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a


fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak


opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most


daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I


think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an


election. I don't think she has thought about how you would


manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the


energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning


the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the


small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.


Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be


difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of


going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't


and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which


is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as


commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but


they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in


unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because


she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through


Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an


early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write


a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's


box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.


The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may


replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an


election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself


you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall


see. So if Theresa May did go


for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns


and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we


have just been talking about, executed one of the most


embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a


torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still


so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an


early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing


ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that


we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only


challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative


for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,


would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't


want this government to be in power so of course if there is an


opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a


better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course


we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote


in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an


opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in


government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with


the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very


seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but


would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to


be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to


bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the


British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together


Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a


General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance


of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an


early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?


It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to


dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories


in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that


opportunity to put that case to the British people.


Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all


but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?


How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of


money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the


Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it


inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to


build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We


have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are


taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian


Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the


Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the


support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the


electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready


for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got


your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the


shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if


there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these


things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its


annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates


policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last


Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a


fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much


extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going


to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.


I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We


have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out


Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there


hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war


footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,


can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under


a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.


And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an


election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th


of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't


having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy


development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think


you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll


ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the


Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in


safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long


does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the


Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour


Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party


merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in


case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be


talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation


about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually


for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting


with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the


prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,


given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its


mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be


about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17


behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as


an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you


still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?


These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was


settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.


Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it


is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it


is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will


you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future


looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,


where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit


cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make


sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to


fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to


make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour


returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.


And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring


conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.


Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps


Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In


what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not


saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim


Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware


what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was


arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound


supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as


Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so


ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,


Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more


isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach


that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans


to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,


Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,


nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In


what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has


interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote


you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over


the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have


to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was


in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not


right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we


have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald


Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different


view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not


antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not


aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the


British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by


choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing


so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self


harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the


threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so


ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view


speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not


challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs


that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring


conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long


time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a


realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards


that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a


realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want


that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the


recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People


often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election


we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we


have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in


Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way


seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted


for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling


increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party


because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable


from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk


on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite


them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across


parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster


village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,


inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people


on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the


ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence


to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be


thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we


are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the


referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated


ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something


unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can


guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the


British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work


out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she


will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new


trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of


that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there


will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use


this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling


back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or


thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were


promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this


glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the


world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of


years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to


take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of


quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always


welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is


certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you


spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or


spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper


editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's


feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law


against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will


again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also


wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in


the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his


self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on


a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you


will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.


Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been


warning the health service needs more money to help it meet


But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered


no immediate relief, and today the head of


the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds


of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency


care and planned operations, unless the Government


Warnings over funding are not exactly new.


Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,


published his plan for the future of the health service.


In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England


would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.


To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money


from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,


and that the health service could account for the rest by making


The Government says it's given the health service more than what it


asked for, and that NHS in England will have received


That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair


of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more


like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget


have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.


Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished


the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts


from the Government, the NHS is likely to record


Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A


departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being


This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care


but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn


that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked


And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS


Providers in England, Chris Hopson.


Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra


money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part


of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a


bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so


on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18


billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising


more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that


is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS


knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are


somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.


Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22


billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year


and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25


billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the


2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to


which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period


and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen


before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come


onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some


extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument


about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this


extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?


Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward


view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the


centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms


length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was


consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that


the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS


where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every


year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able


to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding


increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release


we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would


not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in


other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts


Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.


Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.


How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we


estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you


clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour


A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and


operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900


million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you


would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of


those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion


on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5


billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is


important we should make an important distinction about the NHS


versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour


government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return


for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,


the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery


we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would


want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for


it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest


financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going


up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand


go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I


think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going


to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I


think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS


as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have


got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36


office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to


1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know


in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the


last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement


gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25


billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But


having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where


there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it


for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its


contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as


efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for


you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise


those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would


go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a


deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the


moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release


land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts


which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous


organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.


Have you raised that with the government?


Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard


somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big


salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for


the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more


money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being


properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And


yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in


a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I


have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight


in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,


mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most


complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to


be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we


should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid


are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion


a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There


was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the


problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need


and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having


to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem


and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those


amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas


is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you


could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,


what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government


has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing


funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can


I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the


first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we


can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work


in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very


important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the


financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being


asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of


time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.


It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now


In the East Midlands, the immigrant community which has


fled the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark for


More than 15,000 Somalis live in Leicester and many of them moved


from mainland Europe, drawn in by the city's


Leicester is a welcoming city and it's a city that welcomes people


no matter their background, religion, race or colour.


A chance of a new life, but are we doing enough to help


Being an ex-offender, there is not many people that


want to give you a chance and that is the problem


with a lot of ex-offenders is the fact that they're not given


a chance and they don't see no other way out of it so they just revert


Hello. I'm Marie Ashby.


My guests are Amanda Solloway, Conservative MP for Derby North


and Willy Bach, Labour peer and the Police and Crime


Let's get your reaction to the news that two police


forces Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire have passed


their files on the Conservative election expenses scandal


Amanda, this comes as the Conservatives have been fined


?70,000 by the Electoral Commission for not reporting expenses properly.


This is getting serious, isn't it? Are you worried?


I wasn't affected and we have complied with


the commission on this, given as much information as we can,


supported the investigation and we will be paying the fine on time.


The Electoral Commission had to get a court order to get that


I don't know all the details because I haven't been involved in it.


As far as I'm concerned, we have complied in every way on it.


Willy Bach, many of the problems centre around the use


of a battlebus to visit different seats during the election.


All parties use tactics like that, don't they?


Are you sure Labour have recorded their expenses correctly too?


Well, one can never be sure about anything,


but it does look on this occasion that the Conservatives


misused that battlebus, claiming it was for national


expenses when there was definitely a local element.


But let's see what the Crown Prosecution Service decide to do.


It is clearly a serious situation for everyone,


In your role as PCC, I'm interested to know how hard


is it for a police force to deal with something as sensitive


Well, I'm sure it is very hard, I say I'm sure because we haven't


got any constituencies in our area where the police


are being asked to make inquiries, but it is very sensitive.


It's a very difficult field, but police forces around


this country are modern enough and know how to deal with situations


like this and they have the Crown Prosecution Service


who will decide whether prosecutions should be brought or not.


One East Midlands city is gaining an international reputation


Refugees from around the world are settling in Leicester.


Many of them after spending years in countries like the Netherlands,


They chose move on because, despite their reputation


as liberal countries, they decided that Leicester's


multi-cultural society offered a more tolerant attitude


Nisha Chopra has been hearing the story of people


A traditional song and early lessons in a different culture.


Children at the Somali Development Centre in Leicester are carrying


the hopes of their parents, people who came here to make


They arrived here after first settling in countries


like the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden.


It's a city that welcomes people no matter their backgrounds,


Jawahir fled Somalia's civil war and moved to Holland.


University educated, she retrained as a social worker, but worried


that her children wouldn't be able to move on in Dutch society.


She came to Leicester for a holiday after hearing from a friend


I visited colleges, schools, universities and I was amazed.


One primary school I visited had all different flags


and all the different languages saying welcome.


I thought oh my god, they welcome people in their own language.


It's that sense of being able to live their own culture,


but also to move on in society, education and careers that's brought


It's one of the UK's most multi-cultural cities.


The Nomad Cafe in St Matthew's Estate lives up to its name.


So are many of the customers and many have come via Holland,


Sweden and Denmark and have ended up in Leicester


because they say the opportunities are better to build a future.


It's a very open place and a multi-cultural city.


You have a lot of opportunities to get work.


A friend of mine invited me to come to Leicester and I looked


at Leicester and I meet some people and I find


there is a great difference from where I came from and here


in terms of integration and job opportunities


The cafe's owner has seen another opportunity -


the chance to combine the city's multi-culturalism with a love


of ethnic foods to build a business empire in his adopted country.


I use my culture food for mixing Asian and Italian-style


and then becoming unique for everyone.


Even Leicester football players come in and they like the food.


So I want a Nomad Cafe in Leicester, but I want a Nomad Cafe


in in the whole world and every area like Costa Coffee and Starbucks.


It's that dream of moving on and up which has led the Somali community


to flee their war-torn homeland in search of a place


to live, where they can preserve their own culture,


whilst building a future for themselves and for their children.


Willy Bach, it does seem extraordinary that former refugees


who had settled in countries like Holland would then want to move


to places like Leicester - countries supposedly tolerant


Well, those countries are tolerant and nothing against them,


but I'm very proud of our country and I'm very proud


of Leicester because it's a place people want to come


to and to live a good life and to be integrated, but to keep


I'm lucky to know a lot of Somalis in Leicester.


I've worked closely with the community and your film


I've been to the Development Centre and


They're really interested in how the city is functioning


and their part in it and I'm delighted to say


the first Somali police officer is in the next cohort to start


being a policeman in Leicester and two female Somalis have passed


all the tests necessary so that's really exciting.


That's a positive story, but is there a danger if people


keep their own culture that they don't always


That's an accusation that's levelled at that


community in the past, but they deny?


It has been levelled at many communities over many years


and sometimes there is some truth in it.


Everything takes time. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter.


My experience is that the Somali community


in Leicester is integrating well, but it's very indetermined


It's wonderful food by the way. I have been to that cafe.


It is superb. But I think it's working well.


I'm not saying there are no difficulties for young


Somalis, but this is a question of being patient on both sides.


OK, Amanda, other cafes available as well!


But more immigration is hardly going to help


the Government keep get its targets for immigration down?


More people coming in isn't going to help you, as a Government,


to reach your targets on immigration?


I agree that it is part of our cultural richness


that we have all these different communities and in Derby,


we have a vast array of different communities and there is one great


place called Big Communities which is about integrating people


On Friday at my surgery, I saw people who are


asylum and it is great we have this multi-cultural base.


You're talking about an area you know well, Willy knows


Is there a problem for integration with more immigration in the city?


We need to celebrate different cultures and different communities.


I think that's done really well and it's about enhancing


One place where we see it working effectively is in education,


but that can be a challenge and language can be a barrier.


In education, we see some schools where there is a vast array


of different languages that need to be taught.


Not everyone is going to welcome more people coming here, Willy.


Especially if they're refugees who had already had


safe haven in another country before they came here?


But in fact some are refugees from Somalia.


It has been a war-torn country for many years now,


but part of freedom should be if possible for people to come


and live where they want to, provided they're not causing trouble


for people who are here already and the Somalis who have come


from Western Europe, Denmark and Holland


Not only is their use of language very good,


a lot of them speak English too because they've learnt that


in those countries, but they understand what it's


That language barrier or lack of it is key,


isn't it, to integration and better integration?


Absolutely. It is a challenging for education.


Gosh, it's so difficult to learn a different language,


but young children who are in this country are learning English


incredibly well and when I'm talking Urdu to my constituents,


they speak English better than I do Urdu!


From one community looking to build a new life to another,


but are we doing enough to help ex-offenders get into work?


One charity which deals with hundreds of former


prisoners wants to expand across the East Midlands, but is


Here is our political reporter, Tim Parker.


It might look like routine work, but for Anthony March this job has


There are not many people that want to give you a chance.


I think that is the problem with a lot of ex-offenders -


they are not given that chance and they don't see a


way out of it so they just revert back to how they were before.


I was lucky to get that opportunity and the way I put


This bathroom supplies company in Leicester has joined forces


with Leicestershire Cares, a charity getting people who come


It's eight times harder for an ex-offender to find


employment than somebody who hasn't got a criminal record.


Ex-offenders realise they've got to impress upon employers


and put in 100% and they do that and they appreciate that


employers give them that opportunity.


And that's why they are such good workers.


Leicestershire Cares has received ?40,000 from the Police and Crime


Commissioner for Leicester and Leicestershire and it is


benefiting, not only individuals who have come out of prison,


From a recruitment point of view, we found some excellent members


That's never an easy task from the point of view the benefits


it has brought to the teams that have worked with the placement


students, they have undertaken mentoring.


They found new colleagues and they've learnt new skills.


It is a holistic experience for the company and the employees


We're extremely proud of the work that we do on this project.


The Wire Project in Leicester is delivering


permanent jobs to people, but can't expand without


It could be rolled out anywhere in the country.


We were commissioned to do a pilot two years ago in Derbyshire


and Nottingham and that worked very well and that included doing


employer mock interviews in prisons as well as a small number


of placements to see if it works and clearly,


it does work and it would a very cost effective means


For Anthony, it has been a life changing experience.


I couldn't wish for better work colleagues, seriously.


The Leicestershire Police and Crime Commissioner


has backed the project for the next two years to help more


Willy Bach, you put money into that Leicestershire Cares project.


But is that really the right use of money, money that's meant


It's meant to be used and I'm the Police and Crime Commissioner


My police and crime plan - that I'm launching


this week - is going to concentrate on prevention.


We need to prevent people from committing crime as opposed


to having to react to it which the police have to do


too often one of the real problems is for ex-offenders.


Instead of being punished and deciding well, they won't carry


Sometimes people who have been inside are the quickest to commit


offences again and this is the system that Leicestershire


Care uses and it seems brilliant because what it does.


Care uses and it seems brilliant because what it does,


it works in the real world with real employers...


Two weeks placement first and if the placement


works and then a certificate and then a chance of a real job


either with the firm you've done the placement


It sounds really positive from we have seen and from


Amanda, a report last December by the Work and Pensions


Select Committee said that former prisoners basically just drop off


The committee said many come out with a ?46 resettlement, have


to wait weeks for their benefits to come through and don't really


get any meaningful help in those early stages.


It's a pretty poor picture, isn't it?


Well, I think, as you know on Monday we've got the Police and Crime Bill


going through Parliament and I agree completely.


I think that projects like this are essential and I have been


going into a lot of prisons recently as part of my role on the repertoire


for joint committee for Human Rights and the challenges that's around,


we have lots of challenges at various stages.


One is in education, the first place, but it is around


when you're in prison, it's around education.


Equipping you for work outside and then you have the other


challenge of preventing crime happening again and you can,


and prison for some people can even are something


that they become institutionalised and it is about breaking that cycle.


But is your Government actually doing enough on that?


We know that nearly half of adult prisoners are back


I think there is always more to do and one of the things I would be


This is why projects like this is so good.


It's around getting ex-offenders into some kind of employment,


giving them some skills and I think even apprenticeships


Looking at skills and convincing employers, as we saw on the film,


these people actually can become incredibly good


But some people would say there would be plenty


of people who haven't got jobs who would love this support


and help spending on them and they haven't broken any laws,


they haven't offended and they're out of work?


That's true and we have to look after them too and I'm not sure


In fact, I'm sure we're not under present arrangements but I do think


that if we want to live in a peaceful society,


one where crime isn't on the up, it is time


for society to look carefully at what we do with ex-prisoners.


Do you think the Government is tackling this problem?


It does say it has got a big re-launch from April.


It's putting in ?100 million as we know for more than 200 prison


officers and planning, it says the biggest


overhaul in our prison system in a generation?


The prison system is in some kind of crisis at the moment.


I hope and I think the Government accepts that and work is going on.


But there is a huge amount that needs to be done,


but I think we ought to start again and this applies to all political


parties to consider whether we don't send too many people,


The figures came out this week that suggest in Western Europe,


it's in Britain that most people, per population, are sent to prison.


We have to look at rehabilitation again.


I hope the Government is doing it. My party is certainly doing it.


We saw in our film there Amanda, how Anthony felt


It's very positive for him and we hear that ex-offenders make hard


They are very willing to work, but it's actually eight


times harder for ex-offenders to find work and it is hard


to convince employers to take them on so what will your Government be


doing to address that because that's really at the crux


It is. There is two challenges.


One is within the prison system is trying to equip people


for when they leave prison and one of the things I heard the other day


was around prisoners not knowing where they were going to be living


and I think we need to be addressing issues like that.


We need to be managing expectations on leaving prisons and then


One of the things that possibly we could do is maybe having a body


that supports a bit like the one you've got in Leicestershire


where it supports people returning into the workplace,


convincing people to take them into employment and then


hopefully finding employment, moving on from that.


OK, it is time for a round-up of some of the other political stories


Here is our political editor Tony Row with 60 seconds.


Toyota is investing ?240 million to upgrade its factory in Derbyshire


The company says it is doing all it can to make


But it has warned that tariff-free access to


the European Union is vital for the factory's future success.


Leicestershire is one of more of a dozen


to the Prime Minister over changes to school funding.


The council say they are alarmed by the plans and that they won't


address the historical funding gap they were brought in to solve.


The consultation on the plans ends this week.


Derby City Council has offered ?2 million to resolve a long running


dispute with teaching assistants over changes to pay,


but the union Unison has warned there could be more strikes.


Talks are still continuing between the two sides.


Derbyshire's Derwent Valley is getting more than ?1 million


The money will be available to spend on projects to boost tourism


and improve the quality of life in the area.


That Toyota announcement on paper certainly looks


like good news Amanda, but it does come with


The company is stil warning that the plant


will struggle to stay competitive unless the UK gets that


Let's not take away from the fact this is a brilliant thing to happen,


not just to Derby and Derbyshire, but to the Midlands


I think it demonstrates as you know, I was a Remainer,


but it demonstrates there is an opportunity for negotiation


and I think when you're saying around the tariffs there will be


opportunity for negotiation whenever they take place with different


companies and this is a great example of a negotiation that's


working for the people of Derbyshire.


Do you think the deal will be done though?


Absolutely. I think it's going to be great.


I have no doubt whatsoever that the deal will be done.


But do you think Toyota will say that's enough to stay


Yes, I'm convinced that we will be seeing Toyota.


I think that Toyota will be staying here, yes.


Willy, the Government is giving Toyota ?21 million towards training


Is a sign, isn't it that the Government is trying


to persuade companies like Toyota who we need in this country to stay?


It is good news for everyone, but I have to say this...


My concern is that the Government claims to have an industrial policy


and that's good if it has got one, but is an industrial policy just


the Government negotiating with one big company after another


in a slightly desperate attempt to keep them in this country?


I think Brexit was a huge mistake. That's my own personal view.


I think it would be unfortunate if Government has to keep


negotiating with each individual company just to try


I was just thinking when you said about industrial policy,


we've got an industrial strategy as you know that's coming out,


it's going to strengthen the way that we go forward and I have every


confidence the economy is going to grow.


That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.


Thank you to Amanda Solloway and Willy Bach.


Chris Leslie and Emma McClarkin will be here next week.


you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.


So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament


Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think


And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?


Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week


Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is


too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor


would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a


position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four


days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not


be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,


a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,


he's also chairman of While being committed to one day


a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -


a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic


credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,


an American thinktank, And finally as a member


of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep


as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000


since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners


if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on


the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have


got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs


on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.


I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these


people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used


to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,


Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now


because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new


foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair


praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.


They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge


influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015


election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they


elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which


this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as


a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and


government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly


getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George


Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of


London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying


Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major


was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing


for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features


editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,


did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I


worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know


what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.


If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am


to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited


should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is


a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you


see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and


maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people


about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have


known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,


he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have


calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised


there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's


probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and


on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big


budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages


out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.


It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant


budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has


hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a


something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to


stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was


wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an


association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four


hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big


speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages


have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the


editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is


what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the


newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on


newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation


period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas


losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National


Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are


unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are


unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed


form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to


move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or


will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor


level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need


to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but


what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents


have been getting letters across the country in England about what this


will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a


matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and


Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the


new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more


disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are


going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already


struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller


fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,


adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is


an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the


Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy


companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so


good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put


a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was


obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the


Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap


on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus


much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this


translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That


bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the


Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time


where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that


government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in


the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy


consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in


fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of


implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of


Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk


the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about


managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the


lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and


in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just


about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut


their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We


don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that


could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There


has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and


not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory


MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of


continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's


on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs


to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of


Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government


is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you


could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a


malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,


so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics


would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff


to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the


way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You


are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been


calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite


some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to


sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly


ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in


Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial


windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I


mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling


businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having


saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point


being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those


first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions


taken. On that unusual agreement we will


leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at


noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One


next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. I've not given myself that time


to sit down Two years ago, former England


captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

As the NHS in England warns of a severe financial crisis, Andrew talks to Chris Hopson, head of NHS Providers. He is also joined by former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg MP and Labour Party campaign and elections chair Andrew Gwynne MP.

On the political panel are the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn and journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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