26/03/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


26/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:43.:00:47.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

:00:48.:00:49.

but do the security services have the resources and

:00:50.:00:51.

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:52.:00:55.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

:00:56.:00:58.

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:59.:01:04.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

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East Midlands, as to to and the party's

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East Midlands, as to to trigger Article 30, how ready is our region

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for life outside And with me - as always -

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the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

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throughout the programme. First, it was the most

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deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying

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to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four

:01:44.:01:47.

people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical

:01:48.:01:49.

condition in hospital. His target was the very

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heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,

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and he came within metres of the Prime Minister

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and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions

:01:59.:02:01.

of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,

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fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome

:02:06.:02:06.

could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,

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getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of

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all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many

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ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as

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Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is

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as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she

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is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it

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looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like

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Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows

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through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,

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not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this

:02:59.:03:03.

question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be

:03:04.:03:08.

restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at

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the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting

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things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that

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occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what

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and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we

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have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it

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is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we

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deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used

:03:38.:03:43.

to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal

:03:44.:03:47.

risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place

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at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm

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not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on

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just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are

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very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is

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the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda

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point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of

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Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and

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local people, international visitors, reacting much better than

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they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an

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appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city

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riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a

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better advertisement for the values that is attacking.

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OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,

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what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,

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but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest

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on the investigation. According to a police timeline,

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that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive

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through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into

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Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,

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before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes

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to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released

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a statement saying: "We would like to express our

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gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last

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moments and who were There was nothing more

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you could have done, you did your best and we are just

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grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive

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may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,

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despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has

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such encrypted messaging There should be no place

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for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that

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organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others

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like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists

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to communicate with each other. It used to be that people

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would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted

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to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,

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but in this situation we need to make sure

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that our intelligence services have the ability to get

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into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry

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to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,

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although she didn't rule out But for those caught up

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in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that

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will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague

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by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,

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Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the

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aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively

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supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot

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of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,

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this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been

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supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands

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of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist

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community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,

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illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as

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well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan

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Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European

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link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is

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an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is

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not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course

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in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he

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launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've

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seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the

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attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the

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fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat

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dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle

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to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a

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secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a

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trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last

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couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately

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in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency

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services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and

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Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not

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completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being

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stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted

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attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and

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that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted

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attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them

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get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting

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through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly

:09:23.:09:27.

something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look

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at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from

:09:35.:09:38.

what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really

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appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the

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edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target

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list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of

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radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to

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monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the

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blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a

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sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work

:10:09.:10:12.

and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities

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have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this

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morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe

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Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is

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difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.

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What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases

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we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,

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encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in

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the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a

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real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a

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stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully

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intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged

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via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an

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inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through

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appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law

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enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back

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that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We

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know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the

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Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes

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to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for

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her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I

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would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more

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consistent interception of communication in all parts of the

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way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,

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thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now

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is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us

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about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are

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looked after by some very courageous, very professional police

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officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as

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you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very

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carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that

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need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by

:12:31.:12:36.

professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...

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Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,

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particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as

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security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there

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are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be

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made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get

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some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was

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always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start

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to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed

:13:15.:13:19.

armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,

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because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,

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the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not

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the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security

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arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I

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don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed

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commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards

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removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of

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Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in

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particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide

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how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard

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sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of

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staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details

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of the operation but my understanding is that the number of

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people available is what the police and the security authorities working

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together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate

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with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident

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unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they

:14:43.:14:46.

were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career

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with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I

:14:51.:14:59.

think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any

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lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are

:15:03.:15:06.

still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police

:15:07.:15:11.

officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity

:15:12.:15:17.

of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates

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were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening

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to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was

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able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a

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particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to

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judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are

:15:40.:15:45.

trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we

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have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police

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officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be

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a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of

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that. We know the attacker was stopped in

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his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the

:16:08.:16:13.

armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I

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cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were

:16:19.:16:22.

other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker

:16:23.:16:27.

from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible

:16:28.:16:33.

for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,

:16:34.:16:38.

carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended

:16:39.:16:41.

with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament

:16:42.:16:51.

and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been

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mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are

:16:58.:17:03.

dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised

:17:04.:17:10.

by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not

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debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,

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I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear

:17:21.:17:24.

that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the

:17:25.:17:28.

security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said

:17:29.:17:34.

to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that

:17:35.:17:41.

there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual

:17:42.:17:47.

officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to

:17:48.:17:51.

strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at

:17:52.:17:56.

Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward

:17:57.:18:02.

to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions

:18:03.:18:10.

of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not

:18:11.:18:18.

just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security

:18:19.:18:23.

engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we

:18:24.:18:27.

don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are

:18:28.:18:31.

armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking

:18:32.:18:36.

you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our

:18:37.:18:41.

security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain

:18:42.:18:46.

places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we

:18:47.:18:50.

rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from

:18:51.:18:55.

Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to

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get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,

:19:00.:19:04.

and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might

:19:05.:19:08.

need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the

:19:09.:19:13.

triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the

:19:14.:19:18.

European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told

:19:19.:19:22.

Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of

:19:23.:19:27.

the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do

:19:28.:19:34.

you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of

:19:35.:19:38.

negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the

:19:39.:19:45.

EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British

:19:46.:19:49.

national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make

:19:50.:19:56.

of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of

:19:57.:19:59.

negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that

:20:00.:20:07.

it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between

:20:08.:20:12.

the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues

:20:13.:20:17.

from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy

:20:18.:20:21.

co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a

:20:22.:20:25.

substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU

:20:26.:20:32.

relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit

:20:33.:20:38.

need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship

:20:39.:20:43.

that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining

:20:44.:20:47.

member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.

:20:48.:20:52.

Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and

:20:53.:20:55.

join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we

:20:56.:21:00.

will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies

:21:01.:21:04.

and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a

:21:05.:21:18.

deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce

:21:19.:21:22.

bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or

:21:23.:21:25.

do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to

:21:26.:21:30.

run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?

:21:31.:21:35.

I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into

:21:36.:21:39.

negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with

:21:40.:21:44.

Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved

:21:45.:21:49.

too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each

:21:50.:21:53.

other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the

:21:54.:21:57.

Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime

:21:58.:22:06.

Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,

:22:07.:22:11.

for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we

:22:12.:22:15.

want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term

:22:16.:22:25.

payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government

:22:26.:22:30.

ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that

:22:31.:22:34.

is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the

:22:35.:22:38.

negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave

:22:39.:22:46.

side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of

:22:47.:22:50.

50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks

:22:51.:23:02.

that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the

:23:03.:23:07.

situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic

:23:08.:23:10.

obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last

:23:11.:23:15.

year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the

:23:16.:23:19.

opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.

:23:20.:23:24.

Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper

:23:25.:23:27.

will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't

:23:28.:23:32.

announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's

:23:33.:23:39.

say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it

:23:40.:23:42.

will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a

:23:43.:23:48.

dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?

:23:49.:23:55.

No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal

:23:56.:24:01.

obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they

:24:02.:24:07.

stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example

:24:08.:24:15.

refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a

:24:16.:24:20.

UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary

:24:21.:24:25.

legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This

:24:26.:24:34.

is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and

:24:35.:24:40.

the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in

:24:41.:24:44.

what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in

:24:45.:24:49.

voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,

:24:50.:24:53.

will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny

:24:54.:24:58.

process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant

:24:59.:25:03.

committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone

:25:04.:25:07.

else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I

:25:08.:25:12.

hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,

:25:13.:25:18.

but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament

:25:19.:25:23.

itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being

:25:24.:25:25.

with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -

:25:26.:25:27.

Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip

:25:28.:25:30.

from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,

:25:31.:25:31.

but yesterday announced that he was quitting

:25:32.:25:33.

to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came

:25:34.:25:35.

in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy

:25:36.:25:37.

little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage

:25:38.:25:40.

turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock

:25:41.:25:44.

and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum

:25:45.:25:46.

campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU

:25:47.:25:51.

campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official

:25:52.:25:54.

Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former

:25:55.:26:00.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell

:26:01.:26:02.

of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,

:26:03.:26:04.

writing that, Announcing his resignation

:26:05.:26:06.

on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately

:26:07.:26:14.

wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that

:26:15.:26:16.

that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving

:26:17.:26:19.

Ukip." When Mr Carswell left

:26:20.:26:22.

the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,

:26:23.:26:24.

triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission

:26:25.:26:27.

from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has

:26:28.:26:30.

said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford

:26:31.:26:39.

by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are

:26:40.:26:50.

you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm

:26:51.:26:57.

always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary

:26:58.:27:03.

level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been

:27:04.:27:07.

adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his

:27:08.:27:12.

relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a

:27:13.:27:16.

hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring

:27:17.:27:20.

the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it

:27:21.:27:24.

seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone

:27:25.:27:28.

and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did

:27:29.:27:35.

Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your

:27:36.:27:38.

national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the

:27:39.:27:42.

National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues

:27:43.:27:45.

that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the

:27:46.:27:50.

knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and

:27:51.:27:56.

his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he

:27:57.:28:02.

under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they

:28:03.:28:06.

would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not

:28:07.:28:13.

saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced

:28:14.:28:16.

difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and

:28:17.:28:25.

I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane

:28:26.:28:30.

James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by

:28:31.:28:36.

election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now

:28:37.:28:41.

stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday

:28:42.:28:47.

on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4

:28:48.:29:04.

million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be

:29:05.:29:09.

happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,

:29:10.:29:11.

restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be

:29:12.:29:16.

launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used

:29:17.:29:21.

to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that

:29:22.:29:26.

would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way

:29:27.:29:29.

of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've

:29:30.:29:36.

only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to

:29:37.:29:40.

restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial

:29:41.:29:44.

footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a

:29:45.:29:49.

party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,

:29:50.:29:54.

tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it

:29:55.:29:58.

wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't

:29:59.:30:04.

have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.

:30:05.:30:10.

Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has

:30:11.:30:14.

been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we

:30:15.:30:19.

get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just

:30:20.:30:24.

submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you

:30:25.:30:35.

pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.

:30:36.:30:39.

In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News

:30:40.:30:43.

that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since

:30:44.:30:48.

the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the

:30:49.:30:53.

relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald

:30:54.:30:57.

Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has

:30:58.:31:02.

said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a

:31:03.:31:06.

small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the

:31:07.:31:12.

relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point

:31:13.:31:26.

about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on

:31:27.:31:30.

that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives

:31:31.:31:32.

and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you

:31:33.:31:34.

track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.

:31:35.:31:37.

Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of

:31:38.:31:40.

Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the

:31:41.:31:44.

wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably

:31:45.:31:48.

become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,

:31:49.:31:53.

should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called

:31:54.:31:56.

by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know

:31:57.:32:00.

certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always

:32:01.:32:06.

keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a

:32:07.:32:08.

by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening

:32:09.:32:15.

nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have

:32:16.:32:20.

Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not

:32:21.:32:29.

switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a

:32:30.:32:31.

difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,

:32:32.:32:37.

if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time

:32:38.:32:40.

an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,

:32:41.:32:45.

far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,

:32:46.:32:49.

that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm

:32:50.:32:53.

being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a

:32:54.:32:58.

change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every

:32:59.:33:04.

constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents

:33:05.:33:10.

to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every

:33:11.:33:15.

house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if

:33:16.:33:20.

20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure

:33:21.:33:22.

they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several

:33:23.:33:29.

by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the

:33:30.:33:32.

electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,

:33:33.:33:39.

would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I

:33:40.:33:44.

have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently

:33:45.:33:48.

you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa

:33:49.:33:55.

May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago

:33:56.:34:00.

she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about

:34:01.:34:04.

making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50

:34:05.:34:08.

would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip

:34:09.:34:13.

exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be

:34:14.:34:15.

cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made

:34:16.:34:21.

it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the

:34:22.:34:25.

referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea

:34:26.:34:29.

I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly

:34:30.:34:35.

rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,

:34:36.:34:39.

broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in

:34:40.:34:43.

Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that

:34:44.:34:46.

the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just

:34:47.:34:50.

angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we

:34:51.:34:58.

have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence

:34:59.:35:04.

in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking

:35:05.:35:07.

the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed

:35:08.:35:11.

because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we

:35:12.:35:15.

move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at

:35:16.:35:20.

Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the

:35:21.:35:24.

referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage

:35:25.:35:29.

front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it

:35:30.:35:36.

on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he

:35:37.:35:40.

is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we

:35:41.:35:44.

wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit

:35:45.:35:49.

because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the

:35:50.:35:53.

population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,

:35:54.:35:57.

why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is

:35:58.:36:01.

happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that

:36:02.:36:04.

Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a

:36:05.:36:09.

single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue

:36:10.:36:13.

pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue

:36:14.:36:17.

pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and

:36:18.:36:21.

I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an

:36:22.:36:25.

exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in

:36:26.:36:30.

Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said

:36:31.:36:33.

she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would

:36:34.:36:38.

get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last

:36:39.:36:42.

year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this

:36:43.:36:46.

country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take

:36:47.:36:50.

yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is

:36:51.:36:54.

they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May

:36:55.:36:59.

is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's

:37:00.:37:03.

celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,

:37:04.:37:08.

until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime

:37:09.:37:10.

ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still

:37:11.:37:15.

paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large

:37:16.:37:18.

divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd

:37:19.:37:21.

and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a

:37:22.:37:31.

Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go

:37:32.:37:34.

wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our

:37:35.:37:40.

turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,

:37:41.:37:44.

book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and

:37:45.:37:49.

order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have

:37:50.:37:53.

confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.

:37:54.:37:57.

You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that

:37:58.:38:03.

Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would

:38:04.:38:08.

you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable

:38:09.:38:12.

being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch

:38:13.:38:15.

of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being

:38:16.:38:23.

independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look

:38:24.:38:27.

at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We

:38:28.:38:31.

only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next

:38:32.:38:34.

general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very

:38:35.:38:38.

much. In the East Midlands, after a tragic

:38:39.:39:00.

week at Westminster, it is back to the politics that article 50 due to

:39:01.:39:04.

be triggered this week, but is the East Midlands ready for Brexit? In

:39:05.:39:09.

the EU is at the investing in a lot of money in the East Midlands and we

:39:10.:39:13.

agree to miss it. I'm looking forward to sovereignty for a

:39:14.:39:16.

national parliament, that was paramount to me. Are we paying too

:39:17.:39:25.

much for our concert tickets? The lighthouse adding hundreds of pounds

:39:26.:39:30.

to the cost. What can parliament do to stop online ticket touts who are

:39:31.:39:33.

making millions out of supply and demand for tickets? My guess this

:39:34.:39:41.

week, ten o'clock and is a Conservative MEP for the East

:39:42.:39:44.

Midlands and Chris Leslie is Labour MP for Nottingham ace. Political

:39:45.:39:50.

editor Tony Rowe, who was in Parliament as events unfolded on

:39:51.:39:56.

Wednesday, is here. MR, this latest terrorist attack happened on the

:39:57.:40:00.

anniversary of the attacks in Brussels, in which the EU Parliament

:40:01.:40:04.

was also in lockdown. This must bring back difficult memories. You

:40:05.:40:08.

were there. Absolutely, it was a very sad day. We gathered in

:40:09.:40:13.

Brussels for commemorations all over the city, and it was tense already.

:40:14.:40:17.

People were thinking about the memories, where we had been locked

:40:18.:40:20.

inside the parliament watching and hearing about the events unfold

:40:21.:40:26.

outside. I was on a train to Paris at the time when it happened. I

:40:27.:40:32.

desperately hope the day will pass... Of course it had not be the

:40:33.:40:36.

case. What was going to your head as you heard the events unfold? It took

:40:37.:40:42.

me back. I was deeply concerned and worried about colleagues in

:40:43.:40:46.

Westminster, of course, that I know every time I go to London, I step on

:40:47.:40:51.

the Westminster Bridge, even though I had been net 1 million tyres and

:40:52.:40:55.

take that photo from the spot, so I know just from any people out there

:40:56.:41:00.

and how much it means to London and hope that we can all recover. Chris.

:41:01.:41:07.

You are on a visit to Berlin on Wednesday when this tactic place.

:41:08.:41:10.

Many of your colleagues in Parliament. Yes, I was watching it

:41:11.:41:16.

in the same way everyone else was watching it. That was pretty

:41:17.:41:23.

shocking, but I know for those of us who worked in Parliament staff,

:41:24.:41:29.

tourists as well, all-round Westminster, you do kind of know

:41:30.:41:34.

that this is a focal point for the nation, and if you work in

:41:35.:41:38.

Westminster, there is very high security, seen the back of your mind

:41:39.:41:42.

there is always that anxiety that something might happen, and

:41:43.:41:47.

tragically this individual costs so much havoc in such a dreadful way,

:41:48.:41:54.

and to see the loss, particularly of the police officer, everybody was

:41:55.:41:58.

absolutely devastated by what happened. Tony, you were in

:41:59.:42:02.

Parliament when this tactic place. What was like? Where MPs have their

:42:03.:42:07.

offices and where there is a big meeting area, all of a sudden I

:42:08.:42:13.

became aware of a commotion which sounded like somebody was try to get

:42:14.:42:18.

into the building, and the security emerged in that way. It was only

:42:19.:42:22.

when I saw people rushing in terror away from Westminster Bridge

:42:23.:42:28.

outside, you could see the silhouette running past. You

:42:29.:42:31.

realised that something terrible was happening. You must have been

:42:32.:42:35.

scared. I think anybody in those few moments where we didn't know what

:42:36.:42:39.

was happening was quite frightened by what was going on. But everyone

:42:40.:42:45.

really went in the back of the building and we stay calm, and I

:42:46.:42:48.

think it was a unity among the people in their, we had to stay calm

:42:49.:42:55.

and do what ever the police said. Was security good enough? I was

:42:56.:42:59.

slightly troubled because when it first started and we were all been

:43:00.:43:01.

moved back, somebody came up to me and said, is this normal? And I

:43:02.:43:08.

looked at him in a critical way, because I thought, what do you mean?

:43:09.:43:12.

I realised he was a visitor, he had come to visit Parliament and he said

:43:13.:43:16.

to me he had been going through security and he had been searched

:43:17.:43:19.

properly, and he said they open the door and let everyone in. And I

:43:20.:43:24.

thought, if he has come in without being searched, who else is coming?

:43:25.:43:32.

That the troubled me. What is your abiding memory of that day, apart

:43:33.:43:38.

from the tragic loss of life? For me, as we were pushed back, police

:43:39.:43:43.

were racing from all corners of the building, outside, we didn't know

:43:44.:43:46.

what was out there and neither did they. It was just their bravery. At

:43:47.:43:52.

the end of the day, in the evening, five hours after it started, we were

:43:53.:43:57.

all led out of parliament, through the passageways, under the

:43:58.:44:00.

parliament building, and as we were going out, the route was lying by

:44:01.:44:05.

police and security staff, the same police and been defending us. You

:44:06.:44:13.

wanted to thank everyone of them. As you would expect, it is business as

:44:14.:44:16.

usual in politics, and S3 Theresa May prepares to trigger article 50

:44:17.:44:20.

that can mean only one thing, Brexit on Wednesday. The premise of a

:44:21.:44:25.

former give notice of our intention to leave the EU. What will it mean

:44:26.:44:29.

for the East Midlands and I'll be really ready for life outside the

:44:30.:44:37.

EU? Gearing up for a big change, East Midlands copies are preparing

:44:38.:44:41.

for Brexit. All it is then Nigel Baxter, one of the leaders of the

:44:42.:44:45.

League campaign, leaving the EU can't come soon enough. Be let in...

:44:46.:44:53.

A large owner operators, all those people are still coming in,

:44:54.:44:56.

enquiring about the cause and taking orders. Business has continued as

:44:57.:45:03.

well if not better. Cross while bosses he have had no trouble

:45:04.:45:06.

finding business, what about the workforce? One idea being discussed

:45:07.:45:11.

is that a regional immigration that would let areas like London and

:45:12.:45:14.

Scotland set their own targets. But would that work in East Midlands?

:45:15.:45:19.

All of the examples that have successful regional immigration have

:45:20.:45:25.

either people registering with the police in the know where people are,

:45:26.:45:30.

or they are huge countries, like Canada as jelly, where it is not

:45:31.:45:34.

easy to travel from one region to another. Doctor Williams has another

:45:35.:45:40.

concern for the region's economy. My main fear is the development fund.

:45:41.:45:47.

The councils promise of a job or apprenticeship for everyone to the

:45:48.:45:53.

age of 24 is part funded by the EU, the tram expansion, part funded by

:45:54.:45:56.

the EU. New base for college, part funded by the EU. Nothing and

:45:57.:46:04.

Derbyshire working as enterprise partnership, it had money from the

:46:05.:46:08.

EU in the last few years. The EU is investing a lot of money in the East

:46:09.:46:12.

Midlands and we're going to miss that. I am looking for to

:46:13.:46:16.

sovereignty for a national parliament, that was paramount to

:46:17.:46:22.

me. I am hoping very much that we will get a trade deal that will be

:46:23.:46:26.

as good as close to as good as those we have today, I see no reason why

:46:27.:46:30.

that should not be. Different views about the future holds, but on

:46:31.:46:33.

Wednesday the clock starts ticking and Theresa May as two years to

:46:34.:46:38.

strike a deal that keeps both sides happy. As we know, Emma, you

:46:39.:46:42.

campaign for us to leave the EU, but now we have two years to get all of

:46:43.:46:47.

this sorted after Article 50 is triggered, is it really doable? It

:46:48.:46:52.

is really happening and Diane very glad that it is happening. We've had

:46:53.:46:55.

a lot of speculation is that the referendum, but this is it. It is

:46:56.:47:01.

all happening, it is to kick off on Wednesday. With the exchange of

:47:02.:47:05.

letters that we have, we will see how we will go forward in those

:47:06.:47:09.

negotiations. I would like to see them done in parallel so we will be

:47:10.:47:12.

with drying at the same time as forming a new trading relationship,

:47:13.:47:16.

said it began have a smooth transition. Melgart in two years?

:47:17.:47:20.

Everything can be done if you have the will to see through. That is

:47:21.:47:24.

what we have to do. We have deceived the EU is ready the Tigers are they

:47:25.:47:30.

going to play ball? They will be tough negotiations, no doubt about

:47:31.:47:33.

it, but I think what we need to focus on is what is in both parties'

:47:34.:47:40.

rightfully people. Let's reassure rightfully people. Let's reassure

:47:41.:47:44.

those people that are living in the UK on the UK Brits living overseas

:47:45.:47:48.

that they can continue to live and work there. Two years, is a doable?

:47:49.:47:54.

I will be very surprised. Surely it has to be done because that is what

:47:55.:47:59.

the remaining states want. From the British perspective it has to be.

:48:00.:48:03.

You can't adjust the Willets to happen. There are two parties to

:48:04.:48:07.

this negotiation. From what I heard talking to other European countries,

:48:08.:48:16.

they want to prove to their members that if you leave you will be worse

:48:17.:48:21.

off, and so I was getting very strong messages that the charities

:48:22.:48:24.

of us getting everything that we want as is currently the case, which

:48:25.:48:27.

is what David Davis has promised, is what David Davis has promised,

:48:28.:48:31.

not a chance of it. You could have total negotiations I wish the Prime

:48:32.:48:37.

Minister well, but I think the worry I have is about the benefits that we

:48:38.:48:40.

get from the single market, that people don't yet realise in two

:48:41.:48:46.

years' time we the losers. The reality is we have to be tough when

:48:47.:48:51.

we go into that room. We do have to start with being prepared to walk

:48:52.:48:56.

away from the table. That is how you get a tough negotiation stance. It

:48:57.:49:01.

is in both parties' interests to get an arrangement put in place for

:49:02.:49:06.

future trade. What role will MEPs play in this? I'm doing a lot of

:49:07.:49:10.

lines building with my colleagues in the open parliament and with the

:49:11.:49:13.

other countries inside the EU about what is in their best interest and

:49:14.:49:20.

what those countries top priorities in... And seen how we can move

:49:21.:49:24.

forward. What needs to happen is the emotion needs to come out and we

:49:25.:49:30.

need to step away from this punishment Park and think about what

:49:31.:49:33.

is best for the people. It all sounds very easy and simple, if

:49:34.:49:38.

everybody played by those rules. If you are a Manufacturer --

:49:39.:49:43.

manufacturer or any business in the ease Midlands and you rely on

:49:44.:49:48.

exports, it is the Paris that we risk having added on to the supply

:49:49.:49:58.

chain, all those goods coming in, that potentially could not just have

:49:59.:50:03.

higher tariffs adding to all the costs, but the friction that is

:50:04.:50:06.

added in slowing down the movement of those parts across the borders,

:50:07.:50:09.

this is great headers all economically. How did we get round

:50:10.:50:14.

that? We do not want to have any carrots. We're going in with a zero

:50:15.:50:19.

tariff stance. The reality is that we buy more of days products the

:50:20.:50:25.

name by ours. They would be hurting themselves. Are the EU negotiations

:50:26.:50:29.

prepared to play politics with people's livelihoods? European

:50:30.:50:33.

businesses still want to do business with the UK and vice versa. It is

:50:34.:50:37.

the politicians that will be getting any way to prove a political point.

:50:38.:50:42.

We saw an hour film the doctor who came up with this great long list of

:50:43.:50:46.

projects in the region that are funded part funded by the EU. Will

:50:47.:50:53.

your Government replace of that money? European money is our money

:50:54.:50:59.

that we sent to the EU, they then sent back. We contribute more than

:51:00.:51:03.

we had to do receive. When we are not contributing, we will be having

:51:04.:51:07.

those fans here in the UK to distribute. Will you replace those?

:51:08.:51:12.

I am engaged in making sure the even distribution of that, and making

:51:13.:51:17.

sure our share of it in the east Midlands, and the people I ever have

:51:18.:51:22.

that local decision, some involving local government and making sure

:51:23.:51:25.

they have their say about what they are going to do in terms of those

:51:26.:51:32.

funds. You promised that that ?350 million a week was going to go to

:51:33.:51:36.

the NHS, it was on the side of the big red bus, and amazingly all those

:51:37.:51:39.

who were campaigning for Leave before the summer have been very

:51:40.:51:45.

quiet about whether they will guarantee that money. The reason as

:51:46.:51:48.

it wasn't true and it is not to happen. There will be billions

:51:49.:51:54.

coming back from not paying to the EU. We can use those funds as we see

:51:55.:51:59.

fit you promised at. That is what we're going to do and we need

:52:00.:52:03.

concentrate on getting the best be -- deal when we leave Brexit, and we

:52:04.:52:08.

are using our funds for the priorities that each part of our

:52:09.:52:12.

country sees fit. You don't look convinced. There is the risk that we

:52:13.:52:16.

have gone from austerity from the banking crisis to posterity in the

:52:17.:52:22.

result of Brexit. When you see what the offers and the Treasury are

:52:23.:52:25.

projecting it is going to start hitting public services, because if

:52:26.:52:28.

your economy is not a strong you don't generate those revenues, you

:52:29.:52:31.

cannot have it for schools and hospitals. With all the developments

:52:32.:52:37.

at Westminster this week, you may have missed the news that MPs had

:52:38.:52:40.

been investigating the online ticket selling business. They heard

:52:41.:52:44.

evidence from one Nottingham -based company which sold millions of kids

:52:45.:52:49.

from concerts early to see them being sold on other sites with

:52:50.:52:52.

hundreds of pounds added to the cost. Nick Cave is back in

:52:53.:53:04.

Nottingham in September, last time he was in the city was a sell-out.

:53:05.:53:09.

Tickets for events are snapped up quickly, not everyone intends to go

:53:10.:53:14.

to the gig, some buy to sell to secondary agencies to make money.

:53:15.:53:18.

The agencies make even more. This is a really good example, go to the

:53:19.:53:25.

seat tickets website, ?48 60 hoodie booking fees. Go to a secondary site

:53:26.:53:30.

and they will tell you to hurry because they are selling them fast.

:53:31.:53:35.

Only three left apparently. When you go through you cannot select one

:53:36.:53:40.

ticket, you can only buy three tickets, and those three tickets

:53:41.:53:48.

will set you back ?513. At the Commons this week they investigated

:53:49.:53:54.

what they have turned ticket abuse. They began selling tickets

:53:55.:53:56.

over-the-counter as a Nottingham reckoned shop. Now they sell

:53:57.:54:00.

millions online a year, including big events like Glastonbury. We are

:54:01.:54:09.

powerless, if you bought six tickets today, if we don't know you and you

:54:10.:54:13.

bought six tickets and floated them through, we are powerless to stop

:54:14.:54:17.

that. One of the secondary agencies invited get evidence failed to show

:54:18.:54:23.

up. It says something about their lack of self-respect and the shady

:54:24.:54:27.

nature of the operation that they feel they cannot appear here and

:54:28.:54:31.

answer questions. The bands will play an anti-music won't stop, but

:54:32.:54:36.

how canny moneymakers be stopped from online touting in the face of

:54:37.:54:44.

supply and demand? We're joined now by Robert Wilms Hurst from the

:54:45.:54:49.

Nottingham based online to get select C Tickets. You are one of the

:54:50.:54:52.

big players in this industry but your company started with very

:54:53.:54:56.

humble beginnings. It was a record shop when I started. I should add I

:54:57.:55:02.

didn't find the business, it was a growing concern. I wanted computer

:55:03.:55:08.

system to Celtic as more efficiently. I am still here and

:55:09.:55:13.

selling millions of figures a year in the UK. It is a substantial

:55:14.:55:18.

business. We did about ?370 million worth of business last year, which

:55:19.:55:24.

is a lot of money. As we saw, you did sign up for that committee

:55:25.:55:29.

meeting. But your industry does have very serious problems with touts

:55:30.:55:33.

buying tickets from your website. What are you doing to stop that? It

:55:34.:55:40.

is a difficult one, so we have a number of technologies that try and

:55:41.:55:45.

find repeat tabs, and read them out. What we cannot do is stop

:55:46.:55:51.

individuals buying six, maybe selling to whatever, the bedroom

:55:52.:55:56.

taxes we -- touts as the column. It is deeper than the consumer issue.

:55:57.:56:02.

It is not just about consumers not wanted the high price which is what

:56:03.:56:07.

the media picked up on, but for as the wider concern is one of

:56:08.:56:13.

money-laundering, organised crime and credit card fraud. What you have

:56:14.:56:14.

any ticket is the base civil store any ticket is the base civil store

:56:15.:56:20.

and transfer value. It is incumbent on all parties to do what it can and

:56:21.:56:24.

not just say, it is just about this guide not wanted to pay twice the

:56:25.:56:28.

price for this ticket. What you think we should be doing about this?

:56:29.:56:35.

I had to buy tickets for Michael Boo Bley, but she was worth it. It is a

:56:36.:56:42.

Buick real... I work for the Rugby union has well and bizarreness Ollie

:56:43.:56:45.

time. The problem is real fans getting hands on it tickets for real

:56:46.:56:50.

face value. The Government understand this that it is a very

:56:51.:56:55.

forward I making amendments for the forward I making amendments for the

:56:56.:56:58.

Digital economy Bill, to make sure that the use of these is not being

:56:59.:57:02.

abused in order to harvest lots of tickets above the maximum in order

:57:03.:57:06.

to allow more tickets to remain available for the real fans. What

:57:07.:57:10.

you think about this, have you paid over the odds for a ticket? The

:57:11.:57:21.

thing is, for a lot of my constituents, it is something that

:57:22.:57:25.

really gets on their nerves, because they want to go to a sporting event

:57:26.:57:30.

or see their favourite artist, and sometimes what they do is they

:57:31.:57:38.

Google it and go to the website and the secondary sites will pop up, and

:57:39.:57:42.

they will think oh well, they must be telling the truth, there are

:57:43.:57:45.

noting its left. The advice tends to be to go to the registered website

:57:46.:57:50.

of the artist on a sporting event, because you're much more likely to

:57:51.:57:55.

get the truth about what tickets are available. We did approach via

:57:56.:58:00.

go-go, but we haven't replied. They said they don't buy and sell tickets

:58:01.:58:04.

but they just run a site that people can run that excel tickets on.

:58:05.:58:12.

Arenas disapprove of secondary ticketing. They are members of aid

:58:13.:58:18.

music industry campaign. It is the second oldest game in the book. If

:58:19.:58:28.

you look... I'll such a business in France, it is quite regulated, so

:58:29.:58:33.

ticket agents are licensed, and the travel agent industry the UK is

:58:34.:58:37.

licensed to. That is a possible solution, so at consumer knows... Go

:58:38.:58:48.

slack or MEPs be doing more? Possibly, it needs some effort. I

:58:49.:58:51.

was grilled quite a bit on this at the committee. They keep saying, we

:58:52.:58:59.

have legislation, but it is about enforcement. Legislation doesn't

:59:00.:59:05.

stop criminality. Is very rule -- a role for the EU? Is already

:59:06.:59:10.

legislation in place, it just needs to be enforced, understanding the

:59:11.:59:15.

trading standards officers around the country, and around the world

:59:16.:59:18.

this problem. More needs to be done this problem. More needs to be done

:59:19.:59:22.

in the identification of who you are buying from. The tickets I am bought

:59:23.:59:27.

were from eBay, and I knew who I was buying from. It was my choice to

:59:28.:59:32.

with faceless people. That is the with faceless people. That is the

:59:33.:59:39.

way consumers can behave, and there are certain technologies now in

:59:40.:59:44.

terms of putting the name of the person purchasing, even the

:59:45.:59:46.

photograph of them, why did he take it to prevent this stuff from

:59:47.:59:51.

happening. Give as an idea of the damage that has been done to the

:59:52.:59:57.

industry? It is consumer damage that is the issue. People lose faith in

:59:58.:00:02.

the industry, artist like it, they delivered a price their tickets to

:00:03.:00:07.

attack their fan base, so it does reflect negatively on the artist,

:00:08.:00:11.

because they can be seen to be complicit. People can be deterred.

:00:12.:00:15.

They go to Google first. Cross not They go to Google first. Cross not

:00:16.:00:23.

in a motorbike and we're also told is that they encourage fans to go to

:00:24.:00:26.

the fanfare Alliance website for tips on how to beat the ticket

:00:27.:00:28.

touts. The Government is being asked for

:00:29.:00:43.

?40 million to create 1000 jobs in the region's former coalfield which

:00:44.:00:52.

generated -- some of the highest levels of deprivation in the

:00:53.:00:57.

country. Plans to develop a form of American amusement park are expected

:00:58.:01:01.

go before councillors later this year. The value is expecting a

:01:02.:01:05.

planning application frame eggs of homes and retail space on the site.

:01:06.:01:10.

Skills in Nottingham will be among the worst hit in the country by

:01:11.:01:14.

changes to education funding, according to figures released this

:01:15.:01:19.

week. The Nottingham sub MP rated in the Commons. Every school in my

:01:20.:01:28.

constituency will lose an average of ?584 per pupil. Figures also

:01:29.:01:32.

revealed that skills and Derby will see an average rise of almost two in

:01:33.:01:35.

.5%, one of the highest in the country. -- 2.5%. And that is the

:01:36.:01:43.

study we don't have any more time! Thank

:01:44.:01:49.

you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.

:01:50.:01:55.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

:01:56.:02:12.

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

:02:13.:02:15.

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

:02:16.:02:19.

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

:02:20.:02:21.

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

:02:22.:02:24.

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

:02:25.:02:26.

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

:02:27.:02:29.

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

:02:30.:02:35.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

:02:36.:02:40.

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

:02:41.:02:48.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

:02:49.:02:51.

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

:02:52.:02:55.

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

:02:56.:02:58.

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

:02:59.:03:17.

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

:03:18.:03:21.

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

:03:22.:03:25.

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

:03:26.:03:32.

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

:03:33.:03:35.

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

:03:36.:03:40.

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

:03:41.:03:47.

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

:03:48.:03:51.

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

:03:52.:03:54.

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

:03:55.:03:59.

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

:04:00.:04:02.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

:04:03.:04:08.

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

:04:09.:04:11.

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

:04:12.:04:29.

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

:04:30.:04:33.

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

:04:34.:04:35.

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

:04:36.:04:38.

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

:04:39.:04:41.

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

:04:42.:04:43.

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

:04:44.:04:45.

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

:04:46.:04:48.

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

:04:49.:04:50.

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

:04:51.:04:54.

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

:04:55.:05:00.

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

:05:01.:05:04.

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

:05:05.:05:09.

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

:05:10.:05:14.

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

:05:15.:05:19.

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

:05:20.:05:23.

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

:05:24.:05:29.

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

:05:30.:05:33.

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

:05:34.:05:40.

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

:05:41.:05:45.

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

:05:46.:05:51.

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

:05:52.:05:54.

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

:05:55.:06:00.

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

:06:01.:06:05.

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

:06:06.:06:12.

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

:06:13.:06:16.

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

:06:17.:06:20.

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

:06:21.:06:23.

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

:06:24.:06:28.

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

:06:29.:06:32.

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

:06:33.:06:35.

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

:06:36.:06:39.

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

:06:40.:06:52.

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

:06:53.:06:55.

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

:06:56.:06:57.

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

:06:58.:07:00.

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

:07:01.:07:03.

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

:07:04.:07:07.

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

:07:08.:07:11.

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

:07:12.:07:14.

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

:07:15.:07:18.

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

:07:19.:07:25.

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

:07:26.:07:29.

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

:07:30.:07:33.

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

:07:34.:07:37.

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

:07:38.:07:42.

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

:07:43.:07:45.

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

:07:46.:07:51.

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

:07:52.:08:04.

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

:08:05.:08:07.

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

:08:08.:08:10.

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

:08:11.:08:13.

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

:08:14.:08:15.

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

:08:16.:08:19.

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

:08:20.:08:23.

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

:08:24.:08:27.

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

:08:28.:08:30.

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

:08:31.:08:34.

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

:08:35.:08:38.

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

:08:39.:08:42.

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

:08:43.:08:47.

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

:08:48.:08:50.

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

:08:51.:08:54.

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

:08:55.:08:59.

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

:09:00.:09:03.

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

:09:04.:09:06.

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

:09:07.:09:12.

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

:09:13.:09:18.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

:09:19.:09:23.

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

:09:24.:09:25.

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

:09:26.:09:29.

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

:09:30.:09:33.

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

:09:34.:09:45.

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

:09:46.:09:50.

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

:09:51.:09:54.

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

:09:55.:09:59.

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

:10:00.:10:08.

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

:10:09.:10:13.

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

:10:14.:10:18.

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

:10:19.:10:22.

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

:10:23.:10:26.

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

:10:27.:10:30.

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

:10:31.:10:35.

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

:10:36.:10:39.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

:10:40.:10:44.

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

:10:45.:10:49.

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

:10:50.:10:54.

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

:10:55.:10:57.

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

:10:58.:11:16.

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

:11:17.:11:20.

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

:11:21.:11:22.

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

:11:23.:11:25.

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

:11:26.:11:27.

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

:11:28.:11:30.

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

:11:31.:11:33.

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

:11:34.:11:35.

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

:11:36.:11:42.

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

:11:43.:11:46.

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

:11:47.:11:50.

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

:11:51.:11:55.

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

:11:56.:12:00.

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

:12:01.:12:04.

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

:12:05.:12:07.

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

:12:08.:12:11.

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

:12:12.:12:18.

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

:12:19.:12:20.

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

:12:21.:12:25.

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

:12:26.:12:29.

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

:12:30.:12:35.

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

:12:36.:12:42.

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

:12:43.:12:46.

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

:12:47.:12:50.

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

:12:51.:12:53.

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

:12:54.:12:56.

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

:12:57.:13:00.

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

:13:01.:13:04.

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

:13:05.:13:08.

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

:13:09.:13:13.

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

:13:14.:13:17.

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

:13:18.:13:20.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

:13:21.:13:22.

night from Birmingham - with guests including

:13:23.:13:23.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

:13:24.:13:26.

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

:13:27.:13:28.

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

:13:29.:13:34.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

:13:35.:13:38.

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.


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