26/03/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall.

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.


The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,


but do the security services have the resources and


We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.


As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of


Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power


Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job


East Midlands, as to to and the party's


East Midlands, as to to trigger Article 30, how ready is our region


for life outside And with me - as always -


the best and the brightest political panel in the business -


Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting


throughout the programme. First, it was the most


deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying


to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four


people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical


condition in hospital. His target was the very


heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,


and he came within metres of the Prime Minister


and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions


of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,


fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome


could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,


getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of


all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many


ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as


Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is


as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she


is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it


looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like


Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows


through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,


not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this


question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be


restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at


the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting


things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that


occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what


and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we


have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it


is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we


deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used


to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal


risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place


at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm


not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on


just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are


very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is


the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda


point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of


Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and


local people, international visitors, reacting much better than


they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an


appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city


riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a


better advertisement for the values that is attacking.


OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,


what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,


but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest


on the investigation. According to a police timeline,


that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive


through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into


Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,


before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes


to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released


a statement saying: "We would like to express our


gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last


moments and who were There was nothing more


you could have done, you did your best and we are just


grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive


may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,


despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has


such encrypted messaging There should be no place


for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that


organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others


like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists


to communicate with each other. It used to be that people


would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted


to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,


but in this situation we need to make sure


that our intelligence services have the ability to get


into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry


to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,


although she didn't rule out But for those caught up


in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that


will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague


by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,


Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the


aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively


supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot


of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,


this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been


supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands


of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist


community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,


illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as


well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan


Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European


link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is


an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is


not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course


in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he


launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've


seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the


attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the


fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat


dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle


to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a


secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a


trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last


couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately


in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency


services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and


Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not


completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being


stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted


attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and


that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted


attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them


get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting


through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly


something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look


at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from


what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really


appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the


edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target


list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of


radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to


monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the


blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a


sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work


and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities


have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this


morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe


Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is


difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.


What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases


we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,


encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in


the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a


real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a


stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully


intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged


via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an


inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through


appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law


enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back


that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We


know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the


Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes


to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for


her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I


would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more


consistent interception of communication in all parts of the


way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,


thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now


is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us


about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are


looked after by some very courageous, very professional police


officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as


you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very


carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that


need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by


professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...


Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,


particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as


security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there


are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be


made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get


some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was


always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start


to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed


armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,


because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,


the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not


the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security


arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I


don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed


commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards


removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of


Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in


particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide


how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard


sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of


staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details


of the operation but my understanding is that the number of


people available is what the police and the security authorities working


together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate


with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident


unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they


were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career


with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I


think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any


lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are


still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police


officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity


of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates


were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening


to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was


able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a


particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to


judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are


trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we


have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police


officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be


a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of


that. We know the attacker was stopped in


his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the


armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I


cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were


other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker


from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible


for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,


carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended


with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament


and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been


mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are


dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised


by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not


debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,


I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear


that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the


security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said


to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that


there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual


officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to


strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at


Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward


to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions


of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not


just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security


engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we


don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are


armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking


you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our


security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain


places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we


rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from


Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to


get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,


and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might


need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the


triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the


European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told


Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of


the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do


you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of


negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the


EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British


national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make


of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of


negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that


it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between


the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues


from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy


co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a


substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU


relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit


need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship


that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining


member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.


Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and


join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we


will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies


and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a


deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce


bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or


do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to


run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?


I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into


negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with


Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved


too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each


other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the


Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime


Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,


for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we


want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term


payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government


ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that


is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the


negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave


side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of


50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks


that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the


situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic


obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last


year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the


opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.


Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper


will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't


announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's


say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it


will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a


dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?


No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal


obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they


stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example


refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a


UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary


legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This


is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and


the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in


what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in


voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,


will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny


process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant


committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone


else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I


hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,


but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament


itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being


with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -


Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip


from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,


but yesterday announced that he was quitting


to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came


in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy


little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage


turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock


and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum


campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU


campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official


Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former


Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell


of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,


writing that, Announcing his resignation


on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately


wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that


that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving


Ukip." When Mr Carswell left


the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,


triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission


from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has


said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford


by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are


you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm


always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary


level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been


adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his


relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a


hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring


the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it


seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone


and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did


Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your


national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the


National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues


that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the


knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and


his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he


under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they


would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not


saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced


difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and


I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane


James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by


election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now


stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday


on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4


million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be


happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,


restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be


launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used


to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that


would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way


of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've


only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to


restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial


footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a


party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,


tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it


wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't


have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.


Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has


been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we


get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just


submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you


pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.


In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News


that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since


the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the


relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald


Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has


said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a


small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the


relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point


about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on


that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives


and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you


track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.


Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of


Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the


wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably


become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,


should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called


by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know


certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always


keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a


by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening


nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have


Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not


switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a


difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,


if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time


an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,


far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,


that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm


being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a


change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every


constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents


to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every


house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if


20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure


they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several


by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the


electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,


would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I


have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently


you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa


May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago


she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about


making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50


would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip


exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be


cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made


it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the


referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea


I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly


rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,


broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in


Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that


the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just


angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we


have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence


in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking


the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed


because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we


move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at


Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the


referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage


front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it


on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he


is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we


wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit


because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the


population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,


why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is


happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that


Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a


single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue


pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue


pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and


I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an


exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in


Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said


she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would


get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last


year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this


country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take


yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is


they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May


is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's


celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,


until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime


ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still


paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large


divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd


and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a


Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go


wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our


turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,


book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and


order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have


confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.


You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that


Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would


you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable


being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch


of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being


independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look


at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We


only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next


general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very


much. In the East Midlands, after a tragic


week at Westminster, it is back to the politics that article 50 due to


be triggered this week, but is the East Midlands ready for Brexit? In


the EU is at the investing in a lot of money in the East Midlands and we


agree to miss it. I'm looking forward to sovereignty for a


national parliament, that was paramount to me. Are we paying too


much for our concert tickets? The lighthouse adding hundreds of pounds


to the cost. What can parliament do to stop online ticket touts who are


making millions out of supply and demand for tickets? My guess this


week, ten o'clock and is a Conservative MEP for the East


Midlands and Chris Leslie is Labour MP for Nottingham ace. Political


editor Tony Rowe, who was in Parliament as events unfolded on


Wednesday, is here. MR, this latest terrorist attack happened on the


anniversary of the attacks in Brussels, in which the EU Parliament


was also in lockdown. This must bring back difficult memories. You


were there. Absolutely, it was a very sad day. We gathered in


Brussels for commemorations all over the city, and it was tense already.


People were thinking about the memories, where we had been locked


inside the parliament watching and hearing about the events unfold


outside. I was on a train to Paris at the time when it happened. I


desperately hope the day will pass... Of course it had not be the


case. What was going to your head as you heard the events unfold? It took


me back. I was deeply concerned and worried about colleagues in


Westminster, of course, that I know every time I go to London, I step on


the Westminster Bridge, even though I had been net 1 million tyres and


take that photo from the spot, so I know just from any people out there


and how much it means to London and hope that we can all recover. Chris.


You are on a visit to Berlin on Wednesday when this tactic place.


Many of your colleagues in Parliament. Yes, I was watching it


in the same way everyone else was watching it. That was pretty


shocking, but I know for those of us who worked in Parliament staff,


tourists as well, all-round Westminster, you do kind of know


that this is a focal point for the nation, and if you work in


Westminster, there is very high security, seen the back of your mind


there is always that anxiety that something might happen, and


tragically this individual costs so much havoc in such a dreadful way,


and to see the loss, particularly of the police officer, everybody was


absolutely devastated by what happened. Tony, you were in


Parliament when this tactic place. What was like? Where MPs have their


offices and where there is a big meeting area, all of a sudden I


became aware of a commotion which sounded like somebody was try to get


into the building, and the security emerged in that way. It was only


when I saw people rushing in terror away from Westminster Bridge


outside, you could see the silhouette running past. You


realised that something terrible was happening. You must have been


scared. I think anybody in those few moments where we didn't know what


was happening was quite frightened by what was going on. But everyone


really went in the back of the building and we stay calm, and I


think it was a unity among the people in their, we had to stay calm


and do what ever the police said. Was security good enough? I was


slightly troubled because when it first started and we were all been


moved back, somebody came up to me and said, is this normal? And I


looked at him in a critical way, because I thought, what do you mean?


I realised he was a visitor, he had come to visit Parliament and he said


to me he had been going through security and he had been searched


properly, and he said they open the door and let everyone in. And I


thought, if he has come in without being searched, who else is coming?


That the troubled me. What is your abiding memory of that day, apart


from the tragic loss of life? For me, as we were pushed back, police


were racing from all corners of the building, outside, we didn't know


what was out there and neither did they. It was just their bravery. At


the end of the day, in the evening, five hours after it started, we were


all led out of parliament, through the passageways, under the


parliament building, and as we were going out, the route was lying by


police and security staff, the same police and been defending us. You


wanted to thank everyone of them. As you would expect, it is business as


usual in politics, and S3 Theresa May prepares to trigger article 50


that can mean only one thing, Brexit on Wednesday. The premise of a


former give notice of our intention to leave the EU. What will it mean


for the East Midlands and I'll be really ready for life outside the


EU? Gearing up for a big change, East Midlands copies are preparing


for Brexit. All it is then Nigel Baxter, one of the leaders of the


League campaign, leaving the EU can't come soon enough. Be let in...


A large owner operators, all those people are still coming in,


enquiring about the cause and taking orders. Business has continued as


well if not better. Cross while bosses he have had no trouble


finding business, what about the workforce? One idea being discussed


is that a regional immigration that would let areas like London and


Scotland set their own targets. But would that work in East Midlands?


All of the examples that have successful regional immigration have


either people registering with the police in the know where people are,


or they are huge countries, like Canada as jelly, where it is not


easy to travel from one region to another. Doctor Williams has another


concern for the region's economy. My main fear is the development fund.


The councils promise of a job or apprenticeship for everyone to the


age of 24 is part funded by the EU, the tram expansion, part funded by


the EU. New base for college, part funded by the EU. Nothing and


Derbyshire working as enterprise partnership, it had money from the


EU in the last few years. The EU is investing a lot of money in the East


Midlands and we're going to miss that. I am looking for to


sovereignty for a national parliament, that was paramount to


me. I am hoping very much that we will get a trade deal that will be


as good as close to as good as those we have today, I see no reason why


that should not be. Different views about the future holds, but on


Wednesday the clock starts ticking and Theresa May as two years to


strike a deal that keeps both sides happy. As we know, Emma, you


campaign for us to leave the EU, but now we have two years to get all of


this sorted after Article 50 is triggered, is it really doable? It


is really happening and Diane very glad that it is happening. We've had


a lot of speculation is that the referendum, but this is it. It is


all happening, it is to kick off on Wednesday. With the exchange of


letters that we have, we will see how we will go forward in those


negotiations. I would like to see them done in parallel so we will be


with drying at the same time as forming a new trading relationship,


said it began have a smooth transition. Melgart in two years?


Everything can be done if you have the will to see through. That is


what we have to do. We have deceived the EU is ready the Tigers are they


going to play ball? They will be tough negotiations, no doubt about


it, but I think what we need to focus on is what is in both parties'


rightfully people. Let's reassure rightfully people. Let's reassure


those people that are living in the UK on the UK Brits living overseas


that they can continue to live and work there. Two years, is a doable?


I will be very surprised. Surely it has to be done because that is what


the remaining states want. From the British perspective it has to be.


You can't adjust the Willets to happen. There are two parties to


this negotiation. From what I heard talking to other European countries,


they want to prove to their members that if you leave you will be worse


off, and so I was getting very strong messages that the charities


of us getting everything that we want as is currently the case, which


is what David Davis has promised, is what David Davis has promised,


not a chance of it. You could have total negotiations I wish the Prime


Minister well, but I think the worry I have is about the benefits that we


get from the single market, that people don't yet realise in two


years' time we the losers. The reality is we have to be tough when


we go into that room. We do have to start with being prepared to walk


away from the table. That is how you get a tough negotiation stance. It


is in both parties' interests to get an arrangement put in place for


future trade. What role will MEPs play in this? I'm doing a lot of


lines building with my colleagues in the open parliament and with the


other countries inside the EU about what is in their best interest and


what those countries top priorities in... And seen how we can move


forward. What needs to happen is the emotion needs to come out and we


need to step away from this punishment Park and think about what


is best for the people. It all sounds very easy and simple, if


everybody played by those rules. If you are a Manufacturer --


manufacturer or any business in the ease Midlands and you rely on


exports, it is the Paris that we risk having added on to the supply


chain, all those goods coming in, that potentially could not just have


higher tariffs adding to all the costs, but the friction that is


added in slowing down the movement of those parts across the borders,


this is great headers all economically. How did we get round


that? We do not want to have any carrots. We're going in with a zero


tariff stance. The reality is that we buy more of days products the


name by ours. They would be hurting themselves. Are the EU negotiations


prepared to play politics with people's livelihoods? European


businesses still want to do business with the UK and vice versa. It is


the politicians that will be getting any way to prove a political point.


We saw an hour film the doctor who came up with this great long list of


projects in the region that are funded part funded by the EU. Will


your Government replace of that money? European money is our money


that we sent to the EU, they then sent back. We contribute more than


we had to do receive. When we are not contributing, we will be having


those fans here in the UK to distribute. Will you replace those?


I am engaged in making sure the even distribution of that, and making


sure our share of it in the east Midlands, and the people I ever have


that local decision, some involving local government and making sure


they have their say about what they are going to do in terms of those


funds. You promised that that ?350 million a week was going to go to


the NHS, it was on the side of the big red bus, and amazingly all those


who were campaigning for Leave before the summer have been very


quiet about whether they will guarantee that money. The reason as


it wasn't true and it is not to happen. There will be billions


coming back from not paying to the EU. We can use those funds as we see


fit you promised at. That is what we're going to do and we need


concentrate on getting the best be -- deal when we leave Brexit, and we


are using our funds for the priorities that each part of our


country sees fit. You don't look convinced. There is the risk that we


have gone from austerity from the banking crisis to posterity in the


result of Brexit. When you see what the offers and the Treasury are


projecting it is going to start hitting public services, because if


your economy is not a strong you don't generate those revenues, you


cannot have it for schools and hospitals. With all the developments


at Westminster this week, you may have missed the news that MPs had


been investigating the online ticket selling business. They heard


evidence from one Nottingham -based company which sold millions of kids


from concerts early to see them being sold on other sites with


hundreds of pounds added to the cost. Nick Cave is back in


Nottingham in September, last time he was in the city was a sell-out.


Tickets for events are snapped up quickly, not everyone intends to go


to the gig, some buy to sell to secondary agencies to make money.


The agencies make even more. This is a really good example, go to the


seat tickets website, ?48 60 hoodie booking fees. Go to a secondary site


and they will tell you to hurry because they are selling them fast.


Only three left apparently. When you go through you cannot select one


ticket, you can only buy three tickets, and those three tickets


will set you back ?513. At the Commons this week they investigated


what they have turned ticket abuse. They began selling tickets


over-the-counter as a Nottingham reckoned shop. Now they sell


millions online a year, including big events like Glastonbury. We are


powerless, if you bought six tickets today, if we don't know you and you


bought six tickets and floated them through, we are powerless to stop


that. One of the secondary agencies invited get evidence failed to show


up. It says something about their lack of self-respect and the shady


nature of the operation that they feel they cannot appear here and


answer questions. The bands will play an anti-music won't stop, but


how canny moneymakers be stopped from online touting in the face of


supply and demand? We're joined now by Robert Wilms Hurst from the


Nottingham based online to get select C Tickets. You are one of the


big players in this industry but your company started with very


humble beginnings. It was a record shop when I started. I should add I


didn't find the business, it was a growing concern. I wanted computer


system to Celtic as more efficiently. I am still here and


selling millions of figures a year in the UK. It is a substantial


business. We did about ?370 million worth of business last year, which


is a lot of money. As we saw, you did sign up for that committee


meeting. But your industry does have very serious problems with touts


buying tickets from your website. What are you doing to stop that? It


is a difficult one, so we have a number of technologies that try and


find repeat tabs, and read them out. What we cannot do is stop


individuals buying six, maybe selling to whatever, the bedroom


taxes we -- touts as the column. It is deeper than the consumer issue.


It is not just about consumers not wanted the high price which is what


the media picked up on, but for as the wider concern is one of


money-laundering, organised crime and credit card fraud. What you have


any ticket is the base civil store any ticket is the base civil store


and transfer value. It is incumbent on all parties to do what it can and


not just say, it is just about this guide not wanted to pay twice the


price for this ticket. What you think we should be doing about this?


I had to buy tickets for Michael Boo Bley, but she was worth it. It is a


Buick real... I work for the Rugby union has well and bizarreness Ollie


time. The problem is real fans getting hands on it tickets for real


face value. The Government understand this that it is a very


forward I making amendments for the forward I making amendments for the


Digital economy Bill, to make sure that the use of these is not being


abused in order to harvest lots of tickets above the maximum in order


to allow more tickets to remain available for the real fans. What


you think about this, have you paid over the odds for a ticket? The


thing is, for a lot of my constituents, it is something that


really gets on their nerves, because they want to go to a sporting event


or see their favourite artist, and sometimes what they do is they


Google it and go to the website and the secondary sites will pop up, and


they will think oh well, they must be telling the truth, there are


noting its left. The advice tends to be to go to the registered website


of the artist on a sporting event, because you're much more likely to


get the truth about what tickets are available. We did approach via


go-go, but we haven't replied. They said they don't buy and sell tickets


but they just run a site that people can run that excel tickets on.


Arenas disapprove of secondary ticketing. They are members of aid


music industry campaign. It is the second oldest game in the book. If


you look... I'll such a business in France, it is quite regulated, so


ticket agents are licensed, and the travel agent industry the UK is


licensed to. That is a possible solution, so at consumer knows... Go


slack or MEPs be doing more? Possibly, it needs some effort. I


was grilled quite a bit on this at the committee. They keep saying, we


have legislation, but it is about enforcement. Legislation doesn't


stop criminality. Is very rule -- a role for the EU? Is already


legislation in place, it just needs to be enforced, understanding the


trading standards officers around the country, and around the world


this problem. More needs to be done this problem. More needs to be done


in the identification of who you are buying from. The tickets I am bought


were from eBay, and I knew who I was buying from. It was my choice to


with faceless people. That is the with faceless people. That is the


way consumers can behave, and there are certain technologies now in


terms of putting the name of the person purchasing, even the


photograph of them, why did he take it to prevent this stuff from


happening. Give as an idea of the damage that has been done to the


industry? It is consumer damage that is the issue. People lose faith in


the industry, artist like it, they delivered a price their tickets to


attack their fan base, so it does reflect negatively on the artist,


because they can be seen to be complicit. People can be deterred.


They go to Google first. Cross not They go to Google first. Cross not


in a motorbike and we're also told is that they encourage fans to go to


the fanfare Alliance website for tips on how to beat the ticket


touts. The Government is being asked for


?40 million to create 1000 jobs in the region's former coalfield which


generated -- some of the highest levels of deprivation in the


country. Plans to develop a form of American amusement park are expected


go before councillors later this year. The value is expecting a


planning application frame eggs of homes and retail space on the site.


Skills in Nottingham will be among the worst hit in the country by


changes to education funding, according to figures released this


week. The Nottingham sub MP rated in the Commons. Every school in my


constituency will lose an average of ?584 per pupil. Figures also


revealed that skills and Derby will see an average rise of almost two in


.5%, one of the highest in the country. -- 2.5%. And that is the


study we don't have any more time! Thank


you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.


So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday


at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document


Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -


overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,


And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,


will trigger Article 50, formally starting


The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,


made an appeal for unity at the gathering.


Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations


that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.


At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,


they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic


circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith


Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on


that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important


figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our


divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new


crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international


trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,


by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is


inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member


states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because


that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I


think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.


Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow


setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise


Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that


doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would


be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member


states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is


effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is


not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent


but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the


Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it


ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification


process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:


Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact


that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,


there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and


quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and


disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries


celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful


movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not


there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there


now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that


we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!


I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place


envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why


people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look


at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not


possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they


will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?


I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be


surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal


decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to


buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed


and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can


happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany


which could really result in a change of Government... That is the


big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw


that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into


the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory


observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,


if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional


agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council


doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French


elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second


round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be


representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine


le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a


party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to


sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote


d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that


and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no


longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form


a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you


know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we


are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big


task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional


arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year


timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us


on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a


meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is


going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and


agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government


eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a


take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have


campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it


wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our


parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the


negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated


areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the


campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council


and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.


You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity


for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the


Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time


devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog


about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU


march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to


Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the


European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of


national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people


like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is


for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it


happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were


lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,


if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their


minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even


begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.


Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that


credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the


Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even


then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's


interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free


movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single


market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that


outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are


pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least


let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea


of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really


did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want


external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the


momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the


banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news


was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force


from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our


resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right


that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and


that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining


movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we


will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course


those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been


such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she


blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about


this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's


job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think


you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and


everywhere else where there are British citizens would have


responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU


counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that


until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk


about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a


better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU


citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow


at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.


And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow


night from Birmingham - with guests including


the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,


former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -


I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.


Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.

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