19/11/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands

Morning everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

I'm Sarah Smith.

And this is your guide

to all the big stories that

are shaping politics this weekend,

and a few of the smaller ones too.

Philip Hammond is getting ready

to deliver his latest Budget

on Wednesday and he's not short

of advice - to spend more,

show restraint, even

to stop being an Eyore -

but can he change the direction

of the country and his government?

Conservative Party darling

Jacob Rees-Mogg has

some advice of his own.

He thinks the Chancellor

is being far too gloomy about Brexit

- he joins me live to explain why.

The former Leave campaign leader,

Gisela Stuart, will be here debating

with pro-EU campaigner

Alastair Campbell, after taking

a trip to her native Germany

to speak to businesses

about Brexit.

And, as we wait to find out what's

on the menu for this week's budget,

we're in a diner off

the A1 in Peterborough,

finding out who people most trust

with the economy -

Philip Hammond or John McDonnell?

In the East Midlands,

a Conservative MP calls

for an end to austerity

as

his local council spends

millions on regeneration.

Plus, who has the best policies

to attract young voters?

All that coming up in the programme.

And with me for for all of it,

three journalists who've promised

not to show off like Michael Gove

by using any long economicky words -

although I'm not sure they really

know that many anyway -

it's Tom Newton Dunn,

Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin.

Let's take a look at the big

political stories making the news

this Sunday morning,

and as you might expect there's

plenty of speculation

about what might or not might be

in Philip Hammond's Budget.

The Chancellor is promising a big

investment in new technology,

including driverless cars -

which could be on the road by 2021.

He's been interviewed

in the Sunday Times,

where he talks about plans to reach

the target of building

300,000 homes every year,

or the equivalent of a city

the size of Leeds.

That paper speculates that he's

attempting to turn from "fiscal

Phil" into "hopeful Hammond"

as he tries to set out

a vision for the country,

not just a list of numbers.

The Sunday Telegraph thinks that

Mr Hammond is planning to offer

a pay rise to nurses as part

of a bid to take on Labour.

But that hasn't impressed

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

He's spoken to a number of papers

and is calling for an emergency

budget to invest in public services

and help struggling households.

So that's a taste of what you might

hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond

and Mr McDonnell have both been

appearing this morning

on the Andrew Marr Show.

I think Britain has a very

bright future ahead of it,

and we have to embrace

the opportunities that

a post-Brexit world will offer.

They will be opportunities that

are based on huge change,

huge technological evolution.

It's not always going to be easy,

but the British people have shown

time and time again that we're up

for these challenges.

For many people out there,

this is a depression.

We've had people whose wages

have been cut by 10%.

Nurses, for example.

We've had people who are now...

1.25 million food parcels handed out

in the sixth richest

country in the world.

That's what I call a recession

for large numbers of people.

We will be talking about Labour and

their economic policies in a moment,

but let's start with what we might

expect from the budget. We will talk

to our panel of political observers.

Philip Hammond is under pressure to

set out a bold vision and reset the

government's programme. Can we

expect that?

No, we can't. We have

heard enough from the Chancellor

across various broadcast and his

article in the Sunday Times. I think

we will not be getting a bold

budget. His precise words short... A

short time ago were a balanced

budget. Some Tory hearts will think.

They desperately want something to

go out and shout about, something to

capture people's imagination, and do

big and bold things, like how on

earth are they going to build those

new 300,000 houses a year? There are

good reasons why he has chosen what

appears to be a pretty staid,

Conservative budget, and that is

that they are probably unable to get

anything bold through Parliament.

His capital is so low among Tory

MPs. If you have a minority

government, it is tricky.

We have

seen ministers on programmes like

this in the last few weeks putting

in the bids for what they would like

spending on, whether it be payment

for nurses or parliament. Would he

struggled to get something radical

through the Commons?

Big ideas cost

money. That's the problem. Bold

ideas are controversial. In some

ways, Tory MPs are asking their

Chancellor to do the impossible.

Government is already doing

something big and bold, which is

Brexit. That has implications for

how much money is available, how

many risks you want to take with

everything else. What is crucial is

that he demonstrates a reputation

for competence. The reputation that

the Conservative government has for

economic competence, that many

people prefer them to Labour on the

issue of economic competence. The

worst thing he could do is come up

with a big, bold idea that

unravelled quickly. What they

absolutely don't want is to come up

with an exciting idea that falls

apart three days after the budget.

He is under pressure from

Brexiteers, who are suspicious of

him. Does he have to offer them

something?

Part of his problem is he

has to offer so many different

people different things. This is

Philip Hammond trying to be and

dynamic.

It is hard to tell

sometimes.

At least in theoretical

terms. His longer-term difficulty is

that, if you look at the economic

cycle, we are getting to a point

where we are probably overdue, if

you put Brexit to one side, overdue

some kind of correction or downturn,

if you look what has happened to

asset prices globally. What will be

worrying for the Treasury is, just

as everyone is saying we should turn

on the taps and build this or that,

we might be at the top of a cycle,

and the Treasury will want to lose

something in the armoury in terms of

probably growing the deficit if

there are economic difficulties in

the next two years, and then there

is Brexit as well.

It sounds

impossible.

I think so. Talking to

his friends and colleagues over the

last few days, he had to make a

call, which was precisely how much

can I get away with, with my

political capital being as low as it

is, with the mixed problems he had

at the last budget, and a lot of the

party disliking his approach to

Brexit. He is damned if he is,

damned if he doesn't. Universal

Credit, we are expecting a reduction

in the time it takes to wait,

business rates, affected by high

inflation... I think we will see a

problem fixing budget which will

probably do quite a lot of important

spadework in many areas.

We will

pick up on some of this later in the

programme.

Let's speak now to the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week

he helpfully launched an alternative

"budget for Brexit" and advised

the Chancellor to be less gloomy

about the consequences

of leaving the EU.

Thank you for joining us. Your

alternative budget is pretty

radical. Almost half corporation

tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the

London market. It seems you are

advocating the opposite from what we

will hear from your Chancellor on

Wednesday.

There are two parts to

the proposals I suggested. One is

that we should show that after we

have left the European Union, the UK

is open to the rest of the world. It

is about opening up to the rest of

the world. Secondly, looking at the

modelling that has been done by the

Treasury and some other forecasters,

which has been so comprehensively

wrong. The forecasts made about what

would happen after Brexit have

turned out to be hopelessly false.

The team at Cardiff University have

done some modelling based on the

classical economic principles and

what happens if you move to free

trade that would be very positive

for the economy.

You are predicting

a Brexit dividend of £135 billion,

which sounds fantastic. Why are you

right, and everybody else, including

the Bank of England and the

Institute for Fiscal Studies, why

are they all wrong?

It depends on

the type of modelling. The modelling

that have been done by the Treasury

have been based on gravity models,

which work on the basis of the

nearness of the market and the size

of the economy you are trading with.

These have been wrong in the past.

They predicted that if we joined the

euro, trade would grow by 300%. That

was then revised down to 200%, but

it is fantasyland. The model I am

working on, by Sir Patrick Minford,

who has a record of getting these

things right. He was right about the

exchange rate mechanism, right about

the euro.

Being right in the past

doesn't mean you are right about the

future. Why do you think the

Treasury will not pick up the same

numbers, if this is so obvious to

you?

I think the Treasury was

humiliated by the errors in its

forecast prior to Brexit, and is

trying to defend its position. The

short-term economic consequences of

a vote to leave was one of the most

dishonest documents to come out of

the Treasury, purely a piece of

political propaganda. They are

wounded by that and sticking to the

same script, rather than looking at

other forecasts and other experts.

You think the governor of the Bank

of England is an enemy of Brexit,

and it sounds like you think the

Treasury is opposed to it. As the

Chancellor fallen under their spell

as well, and been persuaded to be an

enemy of Brexit?

I have admiration

the Chancellor, but George Osborne,

his predecessor, was the architect

of Project Fear. He was too close to

the Bank of England and lost his

independence. That is what needs to

change. It is an opportunity in the

budget for Philip Hammond to show he

is putting aside the Treasury's

mistakes in the past. It is very

encouraging what he is saying this

morning, about a more positive

approach to Brexit.

Lord Lawson has

accused Philip Hammond of being very

close to sabotage on Brexit. He says

we need a can-do man at the Treasury

and not a prophet of doom.

I think

that Philip Hammond is an

exceptionally intelligent man, a

very thoughtful man. It is not a bad

thing to have a Chancellor who is

serious minded and steady, rather

than one who is a showman and uses

the Exchequer to interfere in

absolutely everything.

I have a lot

of confidence in the Chancellor.

When you launched your budget for

Brexit, you said the government has

to deliver the £350 million for the

NHS that was delivered during the

referendum, even though you didn't

think that promise should have been

made. Is that something they now

need to deliver wrong?

It is. This

only happens once we have left.

Politicians have to recognise that

voters don't look at the small print

of electoral policies. If you put

£350 million on the side of a bus

and say it may be available for the

NHS, it is reasonable for people to

think that is a promise. Brexit was

won by the Leave campaign, so it it

is important that they deliver on

that promise. Politicians must keep

faith with voters and deliver on

implied promises, as well as ones

that are set out in detail.

The

Cabinet will move on to talk about

the Brexit bill this week, and we

understand they may need to come up

with more money to satisfy EU

demands. The more money spent on

that is less money available for

things like spending on the NHS. Are

you worried about the size of the

exit bill?

You have your finger on

the important point. The government

will have to choose whether to give

lots of money to the European Union,

or whether to spend money on UK

public services, and that will be

part of the negotiation. On all

these issues, it comes down to

choice is the government makes. I

would encourage the government to

choose our own domestic public

services rather than expensive

schemes in continent or Europe.

Why

are you advocating that the

government should spend up to £2.5

billion on a no deal scenario?

It is important that we are ready to

leave in the event of no deal. If we

left with no deal we would on

current figures still be saving the

remains of 18 billion so we would be

saving 15 and a half billion against

paying for the financial framework.

To show we're ready on day one would

be money well spent and most would

be needed any way. We need to have

new customs arrangements in place

even if it is not for a no deal

situation.

There are suggestions

that the Government might back down

on the idea of putting the time and

date of leaving the EU on the face

of the bill. Would you be Exxon

certained if that was -- concerned

if that was remove prd the bill?

It

is in Article 50, unless Article 50

is extended by the Council of Europe

we leave on 20th March 2019 and it

makes accepts that should be the

same in -- sense that should be in

same in domestic law. But that is a

secondary concern from my point of

view. It is important that we leave

on that date.

Stay there if you

would.

We're joined in the studio

by the former minister

Stephen Hammond.

He's no relation to the Chancellor,

but he is a member

of the Treasury Select Committee

and he's one of the Tory MPs named

as "Brexit mutineers"

by the Daily Telegraph

this week - lucky him.

I'm assured you're no relation to

the Chancellor. Let's just pick up

on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying.

How important is it to you as a

rebel that the Government does put

the date on.

I agree with Jacob it

is in the Article 50 process, the

key reason it is important is the

negotiations look like they're going

to be tricky and longer than we

expected and it may well be that we

are still negotiating up until March

2019. We could have a short couple

of weeks period of extension. Why do

harm to the economy by falling out

on a precise time? If those

negotiations need to be extended.

They won't go on for more than a

couple of weeks, because there will

be elections in Europe in June 2019

and there is no chance of a new

commission or Parliament dealing

with this. Giving it flexibility and

with this flexibility the government

said it wants flexibility in

negotiations, why give all the

advantage to the other side? Part of

that was evidenced yesterday by

somebody suggesting they will ask

for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to

be suspended. That is as a result of

putting the date on the bill.

You

did not agree with the Brexit

committee and think it is important

that we set the date and time?

I

think it is perfectly reasonable to

set the date and time and I think

these negotiations fill the time

available. The United States and

Australia agreed a free trade deal

between April 2003 and February

2004. These things don't need to be

interm Knabl if both sides want to

agree. I think the British

electorate would be very concerned

if nearly three years after the vote

to leave, we still hadn't left. I

think most people expected that we

would have left by now. The

negotiations realistically to get

through the approval of the European

Parliament and so on need to be

completed by at the end of next

year, going up to the last minute I

don't think is real is tick.

To move

on to talk about a trade deal and

getting that done, the EU need to

agree to move on and we need to

settle the divorce, cabinet are

going to be talking about the amount

that needs to be spent on that,

Stephen what manned, are you happy

for the Government to offer more?

I

hope that the Government will stick

to the Florence speech in terms of

ensuring that we fulfil our

liabilities and obligations. I'm not

clear exactly whether that is 20

billion or 40 billion and I'm not

sure the government is. If part of

the divorce bill is then some

settlement for getting the trade

deal, we will need to examine that

carefully.

Jacob Rees Mogg, is this

that might spark another war in the

party if the cabinet suggest they're

prepared to pay more?

I think we

need to go back to what you said,

that the - the EU said they want us

to settle the money first. The

Government doesn't need to follow

that. They need our money. If we

don't pay any money for the final 21

months of the framework, the EU has

about 20 billion pounds gap in its

finances and it has no legal

requirement to borrow. So it

insolvents or the Germans and the

others pay more. So our position on

money is very strong and we

shouldn't fall into the trap of

thinking just because Mr Barnier

said it it is as if he has received

tablets of stone like Moses, he has

not.

There is a sense that the

Government feels a mo generous offer

would set a good tone, the kind of

approach that Jacob Rees Mogg

suggests would not make for smooth

relations.

It probably wouldn't. But

we have to be clear what we are

paying for and what we are getting.

No one is suggesting we should hand

over money without proper scrutiny.

It may be appropriate to put money

to facilitate international trade to

secure jobs. We have to be careful

about the analysis about what the

scale and size of Brexit dividend is

and the size of payments will be.

You mustn't confuse gross and net

and there is disagreement about some

of the numbers.

On that, Jacob Rees

Mogg in his budget for Brexit

suggests in five years time we would

have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do

you think it is real is tick.

He is

using some analysis that has some

flaws. It is predicting a price drop

in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff

drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is

predicting huge productivity gains,

the likes of which we have not seen

in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his

view on modellers there is evidence

that they weren't and if you go into

the detail of the analysis, some of

the data is 14 years out of date.

Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being

hopelessly optimistic?

I don't think

that right. I think the fall in

prices comes because you make the

economy more competitive and you

take away tariffs which reduces the

price of food by 20%. That is a big

reduction. Bear in mind that the

biggest tariffs hit food, clothing

and foot wear that, harm the poorest

in society the most. The gains from

productivity come from is in

additional tariffs. Leading to other

saving and further investment I

think the modelling done by the

professor is as good as modelling

can be. That doesn't mean it is

infallible. The failure of gravity

model is well known.

Michael Gove

was accused of auditioning for the

job of Chancellor by using long

words. Do you know any good long

economic words?

I don't think that

we want to get into this type of

business actually. I think all

Conservatives and Steven and I very

much agree on this, want to show as

united a front as we can manage.

There are differences on some

aspects of policy, but in terms of

individuals we want to stand

together and support the best

interests of the government.

Thank

you.

Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Berlin this week trying

to win the support of business

leaders there for a comprehensive

free trade deal with the EU.

He warned them against putting

'politics above prosperity'

and reportedly got a bit

of a frosty reception.

Well, the former Labour MP

Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders

of the Vote Leave referendum

campaign.

We travelled with Gisela to Germany

to meet the business leaders

she says will help secure a good

trade deal for the UK.

Here's her film.

I was born and brought up

in this part of Germany,

and although I've lived in the UK

for the past 40 years,

and represented the constituency

of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20

years, my family still live here,

and I've kept many links.

I was chair of Vote Leave,

and together with only a handful

of other Labour MPs,

we campaigned to leave

the European Union because we

thought the country would be

better off outside.

It's hard to remember now, but back

in the 1970s, when we joined

the European Economic Community,

people thought that by joining

the club we would see the kind

of economic miracle Germany

experienced in the '70s back home.

The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder"

would come to Britain.

But, of course, it didn't.

Within a few short years

of the devastation of World War II,

Germany had emerged as

the largest economy in Europe.

Germany's extraordinary

success is down to

the pragmatism of its business.

German Mittelstand is family

dominated, forward-thinking,

long-term thinking, reliability,

are very important values.

Changing moods on a political

landscape and changing frameworks

are toxic for our way of doing

business, and we want

that to go away.

German business is not given

to making big political statements

out of step with government policy,

but talk to those in decision-making

positions, and it is clear

that they want to secure a good deal

with the United Kingdom.

BMW employs almost 90,000

people here in Germany,

and exports just under

1 million cars annually.

The UK is a vital market.

What we are really seeking right now

is more clarity, more certainty,

because in our cycle of investment,

cycle of development,

it's about a seven-year or so period

that we look at,

but we are now, of course, starting

to think about what comes next,

and what we need to see now

is what is going to be

the trading relationship,

how are the logistics going to look,

what is going to be

the requirements for people

moving across the continent?

Because all of these things

are important to us today.

And, by the way, they will be just

as important tomorrow.

Berlin is well aware that

if the European Commission

is allowed to put up trade barriers

against Britain, it will be

German business, German consumers

and German employees

who will suffer.

TRANSLATION:

I think it's very

important that we complete

the first phase successfully.

The first phase of the negotiations,

which looks at the financial

consequences of Great Britain

leaving the EU.

And then it's not a question

of punishment payments.

It's about when you are part

of a multilayer, contractual

obligation and you want to leave

that, then of course it takes

a whole lot of obligations

which you have to deal with,

so both sides are satisfied and can

live with the consequences.

It isn't everyone's interests

for the UK to part on good terms.

Of course there was going to be

upset when the UK voted to leave,

but creating uncertainty over

the terms of UK's exit will simply

have a disruptive effect

on exports to UK markets.

Far better to have a sensible,

amicable negotiation that results

both sides being able to trade

together and work

together post-Brexit.

Markus Krall is managing

director of Goetzpartners,

and heads the Financial

Institution Industry Group.

Is it true to say that,

if we negotiate Brexit well,

then a good Brexit can actually

strengthen the United Kingdom,

the European Union and Germany?

It's absolutely true.

I think that this

is about two things.

One, about proving that

free trade is possible

between a European Union that is

smaller and a former member country.

If you don't prove that free

trade is possible there,

then the question becomes,

what is Europe standing for?

Number two is, I also

believe the free trade,

free market and democratic and less

bureaucratic approach that Britain

has chosen as the path

into the future is a role

model for Europe.

The time has come both

for the United Kingdom

and for the EU to be more clear

about what kind of

deal we can achieve.

Both sides need to be bold.

As long as we remain open to free

trade and sensible co-operation,

we can arrive at something that

will benefit both sides.

But one thing's obvious -

if we are an open and free trading

economy, we've got one big

cheerleader on our side,

and that is German business.

That was Gisela Stuart

setting out her case

and we'll be hearing

from the opposite side

of the argument in the coming weeks.

Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio

now, as does Alastair Campbell.

He used to work for Tony Blair

in Number 10, set up

the New European Newspaper

to campaign against Brexit,

and is so pro-European that at this

year's Labour conference

he was heard playing Ode

to Joy on the bagpipes.

Welcome both of you.

We will start with your point in the

film, that you think the German

business once the EU to offer the UK

a generous deal because it is in

their interests, yet the president

of the German equivalent of the CBI

said that defending the single

market must be the priority for the

EU, and another says that the

cohesion of the remaining member

states remains the highest priority.

The president of the CBI just after

the referendum said that it would be

in nobody 's interest to introduce

tariffs and trade barriers. On the

UK side, I don't think there's a

full understanding that economic

interests are incredibly important,

that they are trying to cover

economic interests on the cohesion

of the 27. I think different

economic interests will raise the

head of different countries. The

German auto industry is as important

as the financial sector is here. The

banking crisis is far from over, but

the big riffs which were going on is

that the E U is losing its second

biggest net contributor. Countries

like Germany want a deal with the UK

that is a free open market. There

are other tensions in the EU that

wants to become more protectionist,

and that is a bad thing.

Looking at

the film there with the Jacob

Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what

side of leave you are, it is

delusional and all driven by wishful

thinking. You could find a

businessman who says Brexit will be

good for Germany. The vast bulk of

British businesses think this is a

disaster, as do the vast bulk of

European businesses. One of the

delusions on which they ran their

campaign is the idea that they need

us more than we need them. That is

not true.

Be you self about £80

billion more in goods and services

into the UK than we do to them, and

Germany has one of the biggest

deficits. It is in their interest.

Of course it is, but it is a myth

that they need us more than we need

them. The damage that will be done

to us, even with a good deal. Let's

be frank, where these negotiations

are, Theresa May is either going to

end up with a bad deal and dumber or

no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no

deal is a catastrophe.

You are

setting up ideas that which were not

there to begin with and knocking

them down. Delusional.

35 billion,

the Brexit bonus.

If we had a

referendum, it was a democratic

decision. I know you don't like it

and that a lot of business would

have preferred to stay with the

status quo. We have had the

referendum. Undermining political

institutions is in no one's

interests. It is functioning

democracies which lead to economic

stability.

Theresa May fought an

election Inc on a hard Brexit that

was rejected.

As we heard from BMW,

there is uncertainty for business.

There will be elections, European

elections, in 2019. There will be a

change of the Commission and the

parliament. We have a narrow window

to implement the mandate for the

referendum which Parliament voted

for. So rather than you undermining

this country, why don't you work

together to get the best deal?

Because we totally disagree.

You

don't want a good deal?

I'm in

favour of a good deal, and I could

give them some advice as to how they

get a good deal. First, you have a

cabinet that has an agreed strategy.

18 months in, they don't have that.

I am not undermining a deal. I am

continuing to pose questions about

what they are trying to do and how

they are trying to do it. This is

democracy. Democracy is the ability

for Parliament, which is not doing

its job properly, and the public, to

keep scrutinising, and if they want

to change their mind, having the

right to do that.

You were trying to

encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to

play hardball with the UK.

I am on

the side of the UK, and I am worried

that if we go down the path that we

are being taken down, and Theresa

May and Boris Johnson and the rest

of them, this shambolic path, we are

going to do fundamental, lasting

damage to the country we love. I

don't care about the Civil Aviation

Authority. I care about Britain. --

I don't care about the European

Union. If every lorry going into the

UK today was stopped for just two

minutes, we would create an instant

17 mile traffic jam. These people

just don't care...

I am not these

people! Let us not conflate... You

either decide that you are

implementing a democratic decision

of a referendum that was called and

over 17 million voted.

You will not

stop me debating it. Just as Nigel

Farage...

Stop talking about Nigel

Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not

Nigel Farage. There is no desire in

Germany to punish the United

Kingdom.

They are behaving

reasonably.

There is a battle of

protectionism and free market going

on. If we implement this properly,

give businesses the kind of

incentives they want, we can get a

good deal. So you want a bad deal?

You are driven by wishful thinking.

Gisela Stuart, you are saying that

business will intervene to prevent

things like tariffs being put in

place? They are leaving it a bit

late to put pressure on.

You will

find that business is laying out the

kind of things they need to get

those deals. I can find as much

fault with the speed of the

progress, but what I really do

resent is that you are actually

encouraging other countries to

undermine...

Know I am not! I spoke

out in support of the Irish

Taoiseach because I spent a lot of

time with Tony Blair and his team on

the Good Friday Agreement. The

people who are driving this hard

Brexit without thinking it through,

still no answer on how you do Brexit

in our island without a hard border.

I think the Irish Taoiseach is right

to call out the government on the

incompetence and the fact they have

not thought it through.

You accept

the result of the referendum and the

fact that we will be leaving the EU?

I accept the result of the

referendum, but I do not accept that

the country will definitely leave,

because the country is entitled to

change its mind. As the chaos and

costs mount, the public is entitled

to change its mind and will change

its mind.

There is no evidence at

the moment.

Come out with me!

Allow

me to finish the sentence. There is

a changing of mind happening, a

crystallisation. Unlike you, I have

fought five elections and I have won

five elections. I have probably

spoken to more people like you.

You

may do, I'm just saying, come out on

the road with me...

40% of the

population in the middle just want

us to get on with it. What that film

showed is that if you want to make

it a self-fulfilling prophecy that

it's a disaster, which I don't. I

want to implement a deal that is

good for British jobs. The rest of

the world is changing in terms of

technology. Currently, Germany

hasn't even got a government, and

nobody is laughing about that.

And

they are stable without a

government!

Let's leave it there.

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be looking at the latest

opinion polls and we'll bring

you the results of our moodbox

asking whether Phllip Hammond

or John McDonnell should be running

the economy.

In the East Midlands, time

for the age of austerity to and?

One of the region's senior

Conservative MPs calls

for an age of investment.

We are in part of the East Midlands

where austerity is over,

as the council decides to invest

millions in infrastructure.

And getting young

people into politics.

Who has the best policies,

and what do young people

want from politicians?

They concentrate on things that

affect them more than

affect the other generation

they are leaving behind.

And they are not really

that bothered about

what the leave for them.

Hello.

My guests this week,

two relatively youthful politicians,

and both new faces on the national

political scene, having been elected

to Westminster in this

year's General Election.

Ben Bradley is the Conservative

MP for Mansfield.

Alex Norris is Labour's MP

for Nottingham North.

Welcome to you both.

The region has been living up

to its reputation for rebellion this

week with our politicians

in the news over Brexit.

A front page in the Daily Telegraph

this week tells the story.

The paper picks out what it called

the Brexit mutineers,

featuring three prominent

East Midlands Conservative MPs,

in the shape of Ken Clarke,

Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan.

Anna Soubry said the reporting

had led to threats

being made against her.

According to my office,

they have just reported about five

if not more leads to the police

issuing threats against myself

following the front-page article

and today's Daily Telegraph.

Would you therefore make it very

clear to everybody in whatever

capacity that they have an absolute

duty to report responsibly and make

sure they use language that actually

brings our country together?

Ben Bradley, Anna Soubry

says her office has reported

at least five threats made

to her through social media

following those mutineer headlines.

What do you make of that?

There is no excuse for that.

I don't think the headlines

were particularly helpful.

It's important that we have a debate

and that people are able to explain

what their view of Brexit

is and to dissect that legislation,

that's what we are there for.

We all think it is helpful and not

depending what we want to get

out at the end of it.

I don't agree with a lot

of what Anna and Nicky say

in the chamber in the debate,

but it is important we are allowed

to have that without being

criticised in that way for doing it.

Alex Norris, you have just

arrived in Parliament.

Were you expecting this kind

of high-level emotion?

Not in this way.

We expect people to disagree

and for legislation to be dissected

as Ben talked about,

but for people to be singled out

basically for intimidation

I think is really wrong.

Anna and I disagree on a lot

of things because we generally vote

on opposite things on every vote.

But she should never be put up

like that just for holding the views

she has and for frankly

doing her job.

Despite all the noise

the government's legislation

is going through.

Can Labour land any blows?

We're already starting to see

the majority, narrow that it is,

starting to crumble.

Are we?

The votes in the second they were

a lot closer than the first.

I think we're already seeing

number ten started to talk

about changes they have to make

because there are Conservative

MPs who agree with us.

There are six more days

of discussion on it.

So yes, we will keep

landing those blows.

Still time for rebels

to rebel as well.

There are Labour MPs

who agree with us as well.

It's one of those that in Brexit,

the referendum is almost not along

party lines as much,

and it is interesting to see

which way it will go.

But at the minute we are carrying

it through and I think

that will continue.

Some really positive

changes in the bill.

I was desperate to see

the date on the front of it.

I hope it comes off,

I think it will.

Next, an end to austerity

and billions of pounds

invested into the economy.

No, it's not the Labour manifesto,

it's what one of our Conservative

MPs wants to see from the Chancellor

in this week's budget.

Nick Boles, the MP for Grantham &

Stamford, says he wants

an age of investment,

and his local council is putting

their money where his mouth is,

taking millions of pounds out

of its own reserves to spend

on boosting the economy.

Our political editor has been

to Stamford to find out more.

Nick Boles says the age of posterity

is over and what's needed now

is an age of investment.

In here are two people trying

to put that into practice.

They are the Tory new guard running

South Kesteven council,

taking in Stamford, Grantham,

Bourne, and The Deepings.

The leader, Matthew Lee,

is in his 30s, and supplements his

councillor income by working

as a train guard, where

he is also a union official.

His deputy is Kelham Cooke,

at 27 he also has a job working

for Grantham and Stamford MP Nick

Boles.

By deciding to invest

£40 million of council

reserves in infrastructure,

they are enacting some

of the MP's new ideas.

If we can take a small investment

and work with the private sector,

the multiple effect on the economy

is huge, meaning new jobs,

better pay, better opportunities,

young people not having to move away

from the district.

This is a pragmatic approach.

Nick Boles has probably

is on blueprint for a massive boost

in future investment.

It would mean scrapping

the deficit reduction target,

which would also lead to increasing

productivity to boost wages.

He has also suggested raising £50

billion on the financial markets,

with a Grenfell housing bond

and capping the profits

of wealthy landlords.

John McDonnell has sent him

a Labour Party application form.

He is repeating exactly what I have

been saying for two years,

and what we're saying is posterity

should be ended now

because it hasn't worked.

And because of austerity

we have not invested

in our economy for seven years,

and as a result we have

a in productivity.

That means we have not got the high

wages coming into an area

like this particular one

and across the country.

That means ordinary

households are suffering.

The Shadow Chancellor

was in the East Midlands

ahead of the budget.

He doesn't believe councils

spending reserves is

the right course to take.

What we need is a government

to be investing, working

alongside local government,

so we have stable and consistent

investment in infrastructure,

skills and public services.

Back in Stamford, and housing,

affordable housing, is one

of the priorities Nick Boles has

in what he calls his square deal.

Unsurprisingly, views echoed

by his local councillors.

You've got to work with

the residents but already

there but also accept that we have

targets that the government sets,

and we have to build houses.

What do you want from

the budget on Wednesday?

The government has reduced our money

year after year, asked us to become

more commercial and more

forward-thinking

and more innovative.

We need help to get on and do that.

I look for the budget particularly

enabling local government

to deliver governments,

to deliver for the local

communities, and to remove some

of the things that higher hands

to do that.

We don't know what's in the budget,

we do know that in this part

of the East Midlands at least

there's going to be investment

to bring and keep jobs here.

Ben, what do you make of this plan

to read the reserves

to the tune of £40 million?

Nick and I are quite

similar, politically.

I supported his office

while he was ill last year,

and I agree with much

of what he said.

I think we do need to invest

in part of our economy,

and councils across Nottinghamshire

are sat on hundreds of millions

of pounds in reserves,

I sat with my Chief Executive

in Mansfield last week and said,

this is rainy day money, in essence,

how rainy does it have to be

for you to dip into that fund?

The rain is falling.

Absolutely.

And if you are complaining

that your budget is lower,

you've got that money,

and that's what it is there for.

It is there to invest

in housing and infrastructure,

I think it should be used.

Alex, you were a Nottingham

City Council until you

were elected in June.

What do you make of the plan to raid

council reserves like this?

It is a rainy day,

is it time to use them?

Absolutely.

Firstly, councils are not

sat on big reserves,

often those reserves are either

earmarked for work that is ongoing,

in Nottingham we have a big reserves

because much of it goes

into the tram on an annual basis.

But South Kesteven has reserves

of 60 million in total.

They are planning to

use this 40 million.

And they are putting it to work,

which is what we have been doing

in Nottingham since 2011

and during my years there,

because it does stimulate

the economy, it does get jobs going.

The problem is on a local level

that is not enough and it won't do

enough for the British economy.

We need the government

in Wednesday's budget to say,

austerity has not worked,

we need to invest in our economy,

get jobs and skills going,

and we will have a better country

for it.

We have had the slowest

recovery on written record

from a British recession.

In America right away Barack Obama

invested in infrastructure,

and they had a really robust

and good recovery,

and we have lagged behind.

We are lagging behind, Ben,

and your fellow Conservative

MP Nick Bowles wants

an age of investment.

Time to end austerity.

Nick's argument is very much that

austerity has worked

has come down from 10% to 2%

That is a manageable level,

let's use that and use that stable

economy that we've built over

the last seven years to able

to invest with that backing

of a stable national economy,

and utilise the funds that

are sat there to be used.

And I hope we will see plans

in the budget next week for some

government investment in these

things as well.

But there is that money

there on a local basis and local

councils can have a huge impact

in the area.

Can we afford to relax the tight

hand in public spending?

Absolutely, because the point is,

if you invest locally you get that

return back into the Exchequer,

whether it is through VAT,

income tax, a growing economy

is good for everyone.

It is growing revenues

for government and you can

continue to invest.

It is sound economics that has

worked spectacularly

well in America.

But everyone wants to know here,

where is that money could come from?

Of course.

Governments can borrow.

It is something all governments do,

it is a very healthy way,

provided the return on that

investment is more than you borrow.

But it increases the national debt.

It does, but as long as you get

a return for that money than it

makes a very good business case.

The private sector

does it all the time,

and it is what we can do as well.

In that particular Council,

the money is already there.

Why borrow when there

is money sat there?

Ending austerity does not mean

a free hand of spending.

We still have to be careful

of what we're spending

and building for the future.

Where there is money

available we should use it.

You have been calling for more

investment in Mansfield.

Do you think you will get that?

I hope so.

I have had a lot of positive

conversations with the Secretary

of State for Transport

and various other things.

The Home Secretary was in Mansfield

the other week, and trying to talk

about the particular issues we have

and what we need from the Treasury.

What do you need for Mansfield?

It is a former coalfield,

it has been left behind for a long

time by governments of all colours.

We need to improve our

transport infrastructure,

there is a lot of things,

some of which we can support

locally and some we need

government help for.

Alex, what would you like to see

come out of the budget this week?

Something really strong around

housing, allowing councils

to build housing so we can

tackle housing shortage.

We would like to see the main

line electrification,

the business case, again

talking about investing

money the government

would get money back for.

Those are the sort of

things we would look for.

Hasn't that gone away?

It has, but we keep it

on the parliamentary agenda,

we raise it with ministers

of the time.

It is still a very good idea,

whether or not they have

realised that quite yet.

If they are saying

investing in things,

that is the sort of thing.

What about in your constituency

in Nottingham North?

Again, we benefit significantly

from housing, that is

a real challenge for us.

We benefit from investment

into schools, because every single

one of our schools under current

plans will lose money.

That's not one-off money,

that is an annual commitment

to our young people.

That is something I have been

raising in Parliament

from the first week,

because it is a really bad idea

to reduce the quality of education

to our young people.

Because again, the cost on the

economy later is much greater.

And from the budget,

what would you like to see, Ben?

Some similar things,

investment in housing,

I think we have to take a fairly

radical approach if we are to keep

up with the levels of

housing that we need.

I'd like to see investment in some

of that infrastructure and actually

a narrative for equalising

things a bit.

I talk a lot about younger voters,

we will talk about that later,

but I like to see a story about how

we help younger people to get

on the housing ladder,

to get more secure jobs and the kind

of education they deserve.

And what about bringing an end

to austerity to help them?

I think we need to move

on from talking about cutting back

on things, but actually...

But things are still

being cut back on.

We have been talking

about austerity.

Most budgets across most

national sectors have been

rising, not falling.

Local government have

lost 40% in real terms.

I've been a councillor,

South Kesteven will spend

their reserves, they will no doubt

do the best they can with it.

The annual budget.

The cut, so they will be rationing

health care for older

people, they will be doing

less youth services.

They don't have to be.

That capital money

is there to invest.

To make the reforms of me

could work in the future.

I know you're very interested

in homelessness, you can't prop up

homelessness services with money

from your reserves, because what do

you do the next year?

You have to have proper

government investment,

and the sort of monopoly money

stuff doesn't work.

As I mentioned earlier,

we have two relatively young

politicians in the studio,

and at the age of 27 Ben Bradley

is one of the Conservative Party's

hopes for winning back the young

but they lost to Labour

in the last election.

But will it work, and how do

we get more young people

involved in politics?

Our reporter Tim Parker

has been finding out.

It's the less glamorous side of

politics, out

It's the less glamorous side of

politics, out on the streets in the

wet. But it does not put off Georgia

Power, who has just become a

Nottingham city councillor. What are

our friends think of her passion for

politics?

My friends are involved in

politics, so that is no surprise to

them. The ones that are not involved

think I am completely mad. But as

long as they think I'm mad in the

garden built, I don't mind.

By any

measure Labour was by far the most

popular party with young voters in

the last election. On the other side

of the political divide, Jack is a

teacher and chairs the Leicester

Conservatives. He has this warning

for young voters.

If you don't get

involved in politics, and the often

see the cleverest don't get

involved, what happens is that

people that are not as clever as you

and making the decisions. I would

say take an interest in politics

because laws affect us all. We all

have to pay tax and VAT. If you

don't take an interest in politics

then you take those decisions out of

your own hands.

Not quite in his

20s, Ian Fox from Leicester is the

proud owner of one of the youngest

parties in the country. He's just

set it up himself.

We believe that

the left and the right have gone a

little bit left and a little bit

right, and the rest of us, me, the

ordinary person, who normally find

politics boring, is stuck in the

middle and we need a change. We need

to do something positive. Bring

young people in, because we need

them. I won't be here in 20 years,

they will.

All parties agree they

need a clear message for young

voters. The challenge is getting

that message across.

Then, you lead a group of under 35

Conservative members, you try to

change the image of the party. It

sounds like a challenge.

Part of the

challenge of the policy and trying

to get things right to paint a

picture of the future for people. We

don't want to live in a society

where younger people feel they will

be worse off than their parents. We

need to support people with the

things we have been talking about,

housing, education, rewarding work

full stop some of it is an image

thing.

How do you change that? You

cannot change the politicians.

The

view of politicians is a certain

thing, and older grey bloke who says

things and does things in a certain

way. We have got a diverse party. My

group is 19 Conservative MPs under

35. We have men and women, parents,

from different backgrounds. It is a

diverse little group and we can with

the engage with people in a

different way.

Alex, Labour had a

lot of policies of interest to

younger voters at the election,

ending zero hours contracts for

example, and paid internships

ending. But one charge levelled

against the party was that you

tricked younger voters to vote for

you. You said you in tuition fees,

there was also hints that you would

tackle debt burdens for existing

graduates.

Let me start by saying I

don't think problems reaching young

people is about image, adding that

is a bit patronising. It is about

policies. Student fees have been

tripled, it is hard to get housing,

getting secure work without stagnant

wages is with difficult. People are

asking, why are the first generation

to be worse off under parents? Our

manifesto policy and student fees

was really clear, page 44, we will

cancel tuition fees, there will be

no tuition fees going forward. We

didn't make an explicit commitment

of a current levels of debt, only

that we would look at it, and that

was a commitment we made. We didn't

trick anyone, we were clear about

the offer. We were happy to say is

what we can offer, you is what the

current comment is giving you, and

lead people to make a choice. We

don't need to patronise them with

the image thing.

Images and

important?

I don't think it's

patronising to see a lot of people,

does representatives of all parties

who are not relate to bow to younger

people. A lot of people I speak to,

friends of mine, say, what is this

guy, this pensioner, now but my

life? That is the reality for people

we had to show that politics is more

diverse.

It is estimated that a

large proportion of young people

voted Labour, perhaps you should

face up to facts that you have lost

the young vote.

We talk about young

people, voters under the age of

about 45 moved away from the

Conservative Party. It is not a case

of tuition fees of those particular

things, it is broader issues around

housing, work, education. It's not a

case of some silver bullet policy to

fix our engagement with young

people. It is a case of what is

broader vision the future.

Let's

hear from some young voters. Tim has

been speaking to young people in

Leicester.

They concentrate on

things that affect them more than

affect the other generation now

leaving behind. And they're not

really that bothered about what the

leave for them.

There's not enough

publicity about certain things that

we should know about, or it is

talked about enough.

Parties are not

interested young person vote because

they are saying we do not engage,

personally I think we do, but we're

not listen to enough.

Not being

listened to.

That's never a great

reflection on politicians. I've only

had five months and nine days at it,

hope when people of all ages made me

they find I do listen. I might not

always be able to do the things they

want, but I try my hardest and do my

best to represent the community.

That's how I hope I will be all to

build trust and they will judge me

on my record.

Do you think we should

lower the voting age?

I don't think

we should. Not because I don't think

16-year-olds should vote, but

because I think our legal system

around when we become an adult is

very confused, you can do a lot of

things at 16 or 18 and different

ages. We need to decide what age are

you adult and move everything to

that age.

You favour bringing down

the age.

We know why the government

don't want to change the voting age,

because the majority of those people

vote Labour. When those people are

given a vote like in the Scottish

referendum, research and that has

been overwhelmingly positive. It is

a good thing to start at 16 because

they are still in sunken of

education, climate or training, so

it means you can make those people

understand the significance of that

thought.

It is a much broader of

eight Ashley broader debate. How

does make sense to see you can vote

at 16 but not drive by alcohol?

But

isn't this about getting them

against?

F-16 is the right age to be

an adult, then everything should be

18.

To get hold of young people

while they are still in schools, to

give them that grounding.

Alex, why

should young people get involved?

Because it is going to happen to

them either way. Politics is

important, bodily value not. The

reason Ollett is get stuff by the

government is because they think

will not get involved.

It's

important people engage and voices

more likely to be heard if they are

making their voices heard.

Politicians have to listen and get

out there, I'm sure we're trying to

do that and go into schools and

colleges and engage with those

younger people. The more they are

willing, the more they will be

heard.

Time for a round-up.

6000 police jobs could go across the

country in the next two years says

the Nottingham Police and Crime

Commissioner. He said police numbers

are at their lowest in 20 years and

crime is on the up. He wants more

than £1 billion for forces across

the UK. Three councils have been put

on notice by the government to

comply with demands that they

produce housing plan for their

areas. They have been given until

the end of January and will face

government intervention in the

planning processes. I wrote over the

idea to create Nottingham and Derby

Metro area to dig advantage of the

benefits from HS2. A report talks of

a spirit of collaboration between

local authorities. But county

council leaders say they were not

consulted, and lead the report ahead

of its launch tomorrow. Forget

Hollywood Boulevard, Derby is

getting its own walk of Fame. A

£70,000 project will see plaques for

famous and inspiring people from the

city lead in the Saint Peters area.

That is all from us, thanks to Alex

Norris and Ben Bradley for being our

guests. Time to hand you back to

Philip Hammond will deliver his

Budget on Wednesday -

he's moved it to the Autumn

if you remember - and he'll be

hoping it can help re-define

the Government in the eyes

of the public.

But when it comes to

the economy, do people trust

the Conservatives, or Labour?

Here's Ellie Price

with the moodbox.

MUSIC: The Road to Nowhere

by Talking Heads.

All eyes will be on the Chancellor

this week as we find out

what he has been cooking

up in his Budget.

So we have pulled off the A1

near Peterborough to ask people here

who they trust with the economy -

is it the Chancellor,

Philip Hammond, or is it

Labour's John McDonnell?

No 7.

Which one's Tory?

I voted Conservative

for the last two

elections, don't feel very confident

now, so I'm going to swap.

If I said to you which

of these characters

would you trust with the economy,

what would you say?

The one who's currently

running it, because they

seem to be bringing

the deficit down.

Labour.

Why?

Because I'm an NHS worker.

For me, it's just about

spending, public spending.

Labour always overspend.

John McDonnell, I think

capitalism as we know it is tanked

and I think we need

a radical re-think.

Broken his egg, who do you trust

more on the economy?

No one.

Why?

Because they never come up trumps

with anything that they

reckon they're going to do.

If I had to make you

choose one of them?

The man that's there, Hammond.

I wouldn't trust

Philip Hammond with a

bag of marbles or a plastic ball!

Hello, Bob.

Oh, hello.

Who do you trust

more on the economy?

Oh, the Conservatives.

Do you?

Why's that?

I just think they're better

for the small businessman.

We need a Maggie or

a Winston Churchill,

somebody in there with

balls to say, right,

that's the direction

we are

going in, that's what

we are going to do.

I've got balls!

What are you doing?

Putting balls in holes

by the look of it!

I suppose the lesser of the two

evils is anything but Tory,

but I say that without a great

deal of conviction.

Having grown up in the '70s

with all the rubbish on the

streets, the strikes, the unions.

Re-nationalisation and they're

going to spend a lot of money

and increase taxes and it will pull

the country down.

I've seen an awful loft of all-day

breakfasts today, but it

is clearing up time here

at the diner and time

to reveal the Moodbox.

Take it away, Tim.

As you can say it was

a close-run thing, but

like any fiscally responsible

Chancellor, I've done my maths and

counted and Philip Hammond got six

more votes than John McDonnell.

Oh, chip, thank you very much!

That was Ellie and the entirely

unscientific Moodbox,

at the Stibbington diner near

Peterborough.

But for a slightly more scientific

understanding of how the public view

the parties on this and other

issues, let's have a look

at some recent polling.

Here's where the Conservatives

and Labour stood on the economy back

when the Prime Minister called

the snap election in April,

when the Conservatives had a big

lead, as they did in many

other areas.

The most recent poll by the same

company reckoned Labour had narrowed

the gap significantly,

as they have in other areas,

although they're still 10 points

behind the Tories on this issue.

And there was another survey much

discussed at Westminster this week,

showing that while the gap

between Theresa May

and Jeremy Corbyn has narrowed

drastically since that pre-election

period, Mrs May is,

despite her many problems,

still pretty much level-pegging

in polling terms or

even slightly ahead.

And when it comes to how

people intend to vote

while the Tories are behind,

there's no sign of a

big Labour lead yet.

Tony Blair thinks that,

given the current "mess"

inside the Government,

Jeremy Corbyn's party should be

10 or 15 points ahead.

Well, many in Labour will find it

easy to dismiss both Tony Blair

and the opinion polls, as they both

called the last election entirely

wrong, so what if anything do

these polls tell us?

Let's turn to our expert panel.