05/11/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


05/11/2017

Sarah Smith and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith, George Galloway and Peter Hitchens.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

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of politics this Sunday morning.

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On today's show:

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Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

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police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

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He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

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With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

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can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

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to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

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the entire political class?

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We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

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And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

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In

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the East

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the East Midlands:

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the East Midlands: Child

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the East Midlands: Child sex

have been gathering to mark 100

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In the East Midlands: Child sex

abuse charges dropped. The

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politician be building his career.

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So there's plenty of

explosive political news

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to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

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and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

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a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

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gunpowder and treason.

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It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

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Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

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in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

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left Westminster frozen in fear.

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First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

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investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

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of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

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police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

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office in 2008.

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Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

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police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

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and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

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Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

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over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

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he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

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Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

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misconduct allegations.

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This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

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on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

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Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

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And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

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with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

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of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

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Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

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she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

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against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

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Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

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terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

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that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

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better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

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respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

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can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

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Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

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morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

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issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

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is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

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makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

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Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

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actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

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deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

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terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

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that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

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bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

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political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

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allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

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being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

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were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

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the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

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strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

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clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

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beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

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whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

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relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

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rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

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of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

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moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

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bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

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do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

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not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

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computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

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would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

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be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

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Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

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It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

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without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

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scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

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Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

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suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

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may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

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alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

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in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

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meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

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there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

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Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

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and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

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every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

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her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

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she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

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support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

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Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

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inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

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the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

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the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

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10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

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work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

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regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

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House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

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actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

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point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

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the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

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it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

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sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

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interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

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between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

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chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

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at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

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the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

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Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

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they might be regulated.

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Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

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about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

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to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

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counterparts this week.

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We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

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she's in our Truro studio.

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Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

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talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

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but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

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Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

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morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

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should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

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has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

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is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

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ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

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properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

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that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

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investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

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and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

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important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

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test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

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swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

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exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

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things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

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range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

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Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

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environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

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or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

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knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

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transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

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bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

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the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

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can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

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House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

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well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

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thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

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that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

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Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

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year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

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of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

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it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

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experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

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yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

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certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

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as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

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about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

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authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

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people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

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misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

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brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

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in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

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didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

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hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

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flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

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of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

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the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

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urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

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have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

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do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

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clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

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right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

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and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

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perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

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sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

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companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

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use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

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find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

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of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

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politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

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companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

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this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

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with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

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step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

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are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

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It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

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terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

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and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

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make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

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the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

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children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

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of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

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the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

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undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

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justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

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support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

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prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

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need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

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us today.

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Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

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saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

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of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

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And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

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when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

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newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

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Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

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It's an immense privilege to have

been appointed Secretary

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of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

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is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

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making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

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of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

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greatest armed services,

and it's such a privilege to be able

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to work with them.

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Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:470:15:50

at a challenging time

for UK defence.

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The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

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in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

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is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

0:15:560:15:58

over the next ten years.

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The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

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which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

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while there are continuing

reports of shortages

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of manpower and equipment.

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And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

0:16:110:16:13

what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

0:16:130:16:15

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

0:16:150:16:17

like Trident and Nato.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

0:16:180:16:20

secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

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secretary, Nia Griffith.

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Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:310:16:36

same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

0:16:360:16:39

spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

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and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

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of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

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Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

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really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

0:16:580:17:02

spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

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Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

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cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

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more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:140:17:19

In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

0:17:190:17:24

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

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using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

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Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

0:17:330:17:37

it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

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whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

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they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

0:17:480:17:51

pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:510:17:56

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

0:17:560:17:59

Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

0:17:590:18:02

Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

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about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:070:18:12

last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:120:18:17

very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

0:18:170:18:22

and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

0:18:220:18:26

commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:260:18:31

In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

0:18:310:18:36

extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

0:18:360:18:40

calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:400:18:44

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:440:18:49

kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:490:18:53

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

0:18:530:18:57

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

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spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:020:19:09

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

0:19:090:19:13

pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

0:19:130:19:17

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

0:19:170:19:22

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:220:19:25

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

0:19:250:19:30

at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:300:19:35

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:350:19:41

£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:410:19:48

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:480:19:52

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:520:19:58

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:580:20:02

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:020:20:05

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:050:20:12

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:120:20:15

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:150:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:24

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:240:20:29

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:290:20:34

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:340:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:49

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:490:20:54

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:540:20:58

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:580:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:07

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:070:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:16

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:160:21:22

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:220:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:30

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:300:21:35

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:350:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:49

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:490:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:56

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:560:21:59

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:590:22:04

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:040:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:14

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:140:22:18

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:180:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:27

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:270:22:31

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:310:22:34

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:340:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:46

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:460:22:50

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:500:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:01

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:010:23:05

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:050:23:09

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:090:23:14

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:140:23:19

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:190:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:30

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:300:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:37

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:370:23:42

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:420:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:51

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:510:23:58

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:580:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:06

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:060:24:10

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:100:24:16

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:160:24:21

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:210:24:25

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:250:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:45

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:450:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:54

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:540:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:04

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:040:25:08

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:080:25:15

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:150:25:21

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:210:25:25

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:250:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:33

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:330:25:37

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:370:25:42

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:420:25:47

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:470:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:03

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:030:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:09

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:090:26:11

on the left of politics,

0:26:110:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:15

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:150:26:17

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:170:26:19

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:190:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:25

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:250:26:27

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:320:26:34

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:340:26:38

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:380:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:45

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:450:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:51

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:510:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:27:00

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:000:27:02

Then war.

0:27:020:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:16

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:160:27:22

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:220:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:29

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:34

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:340:27:37

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:370:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:43

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:430:27:46

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:460:27:50

the discourse of history.

0:27:500:27:51

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:510:27:54

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:540:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:59

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:590:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:05

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:050:28:08

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:080:28:14

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:140:28:17

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:170:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:22

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:220:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:28

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:280:28:30

from the Cold War period.

0:28:300:28:32

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:320:28:34

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:340:28:36

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:360:28:39

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:390:28:42

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:420:28:45

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:450:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:52

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:520:28:55

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:550:28:58

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:580:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:09

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:100:29:14

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:140:29:17

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:170:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:25

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:250:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:33

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:340:29:36

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:360:29:38

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:380:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:42

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:420:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:52

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:520:29:57

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:570:30:01

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:010:30:04

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:040:30:12

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:120:30:15

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:150:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:28

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:280:30:32

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:320:30:35

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:350:30:43

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:430:30:47

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:470:30:56

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:560:31:06

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:060:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:20

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:200:31:23

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:230:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:36

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:360:31:53

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:530:31:59

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:590:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:10

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:100:32:12

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:120:32:16

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:160:32:22

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:220:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:28

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:280:32:33

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:330:32:36

labour

0:32:360:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:49

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:490:32:53

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:530:32:57

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:570:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:06

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:060:33:11

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:110:33:14

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:140:33:19

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:190:33:25

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:250:33:29

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:290:33:34

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:340:33:39

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:390:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:46

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:460:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:59

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:590:34:04

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:040:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:17

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:170:34:22

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:220:34:31

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:310:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:40

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:400:34:46

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:460:34:49

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:490:34:56

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:560:34:59

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:590:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:22

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:220:35:27

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:270:35:32

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:320:35:35

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:350:35:41

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:410:35:47

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:470:35:54

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:540:35:58

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:580:36:03

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:030:36:06

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:060:36:12

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:120:36:17

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:170:36:22

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:220:36:32

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:320:36:40

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:400:36:44

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:440:36:50

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:500:36:53

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:530:36:59

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:36:590:37:08

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:080:37:12

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:120:37:16

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

0:37:160:37:20

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:200:37:26

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:260:37:29

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:290:37:32

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:320:37:36

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:360:37:39

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:390:37:44

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:440:37:49

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:490:37:52

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:520:37:55

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:550:37:59

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:590:38:02

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:020:38:06

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:060:38:12

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:120:38:18

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:180:38:21

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:210:38:24

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:240:38:27

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:270:38:31

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

0:38:310:38:35

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

0:38:350:38:40

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

0:38:400:38:43

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:430:38:46

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

0:38:460:38:51

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

0:38:510:38:55

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:550:39:00

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

0:39:000:39:06

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:060:39:09

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

0:39:090:39:14

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

0:39:140:39:17

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:170:39:23

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:230:39:31

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:310:39:38

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:380:39:42

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:420:39:48

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:480:39:49

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:490:39:50

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:500:39:52

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:520:39:55

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:550:39:58

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:580:40:01

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:010:40:03

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:030:40:05

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

0:40:050:40:18

In the East Midlands:

of her Government and her party?

0:40:180:40:19

A counsellor

walks free from court as child sex

0:40:190:40:21

offence charges are dropped.

0:40:210:40:22

How has a politician

coped with the most

0:40:220:40:24

damaging of accusations?

0:40:240:40:25

I've had some dark days

with it, and anyone

0:40:250:40:27

that was ever so slightly

weaker than me

0:40:270:40:30

would genuinely find

themselves under the bus.

0:40:300:40:37

And with winter coming fears for

0:40:380:40:39

thousands of people in fuel poverty,

but one campaigner has found a way

0:40:390:40:42

of cutting the bills.

0:40:420:40:43

All the different

measures that we've taken

0:40:430:40:45

have actually meant that our bills

are phenomenally low.

0:40:450:40:47

In fact, our gas bill

is 78p per month.

0:40:470:40:51

Hello, I'm Marie Ashby

and it's been a

0:40:510:40:53

whirlwind week in politics

with the East Midlands

0:40:530:40:55

at the centre of much of it.

0:40:550:40:57

My guests to talk through what it

all means are Lee Rowley the

0:40:570:41:00

newly elected Conservative MP

for North East Derbyshire,

0:41:000:41:02

and Alan Simpson,

a former Labour MP for

0:41:020:41:10

Nottingham South and now an adviser

to the Chancellor, the Shadow

0:41:100:41:12

Chancellor, John McDonald.

0:41:120:41:13

So let's pick up pretty

much where we left

0:41:130:41:15

off last week, really, and the issue

of whether we get a raw deal from

0:41:150:41:19

Government.

0:41:190:41:20

This week it was Dennis Skinner

raising concerns in his

0:41:200:41:22

style at Prime Minister's Questions.

0:41:230:41:24

He said that 30% of the HS2 route

in the south would be tunnels to

0:41:240:41:27

avoid homes having to be demolished.

0:41:270:41:29

In the north, that figure was 2%.

0:41:290:41:32

Isn't it high time that this

Government stopped treating our

0:41:320:41:34

people like second class citizens?!

0:41:340:41:41

JEERING.

0:41:410:41:43

So, Lee Rowley, is he right,

are we second-class citizens?

0:41:430:41:45

Well, Dennis is Dennis.

0:41:450:41:46

Dennis is my neighbour.

0:41:460:41:48

Dennis has his own unique style

and has for 50 years.

0:41:480:41:54

There is legitimate

questions to be asked

0:41:540:41:56

about high-speed 2.

0:41:560:41:57

I've been asking myself

on behalf of my constituents.

0:41:570:41:59

My constituency is slightly less

problematic now as it

0:41:590:42:02

was before the HS2 move.

0:42:020:42:05

But I know there are

other parts of the East

0:42:050:42:10

Midlands where it's still a concern.

0:42:100:42:12

The reality is, I think

we all as MPs need to speak to HS2.

0:42:120:42:16

We all need to make...

0:42:160:42:17

To do the lobbying, to make

the point that we want to

0:42:170:42:20

make this as easy and as less

impactfull as it possibly can.

0:42:200:42:23

So Dennis is speaking up,

I'm speaking up, and

0:42:230:42:25

lots of other MPs are

speaking up as well.

0:42:250:42:27

Last week we were also talking

about figures that mean we have the

0:42:270:42:30

lowest spending in the country

for economic development and public

0:42:300:42:32

transport, and very much the feeling

was that we are lagging behind yet

0:42:320:42:35

again here in this region.

0:42:350:42:37

Yeah, and I'm not sure

I recognise that.

0:42:370:42:40

I'm East Midlands born and bred.

0:42:400:42:41

I was born in Derbyshire.

0:42:410:42:43

I've seen our area

turnround over 30 years.

0:42:430:42:45

I've seen my own

constituency go on leaps

0:42:450:42:46

and bounds over the past...

0:42:470:42:48

But the thing is that

shocking, really,

0:42:480:42:49

according to East Midlands Council

is that we have the third lowest

0:42:490:42:52

spending on education

and health care for example.

0:42:520:42:58

I think we have lots of money

going into the East Midlands.

0:42:580:43:01

I mean, there are huge amounts.

0:43:010:43:03

Several billion that's gone

into those in the last few years.

0:43:030:43:05

We had a recent

announcement about some

0:43:050:43:07

more money for roads around

Loughborough, for the space

0:43:070:43:09

technology Park in Leicester,

for some improvement in Derby city

0:43:090:43:12

centre, and I think

that they were welcome.

0:43:120:43:19

But the reality is, I don't think it

gets us very far if we

0:43:190:43:23

measure ourselves purely

on what the Government gives us.

0:43:230:43:25

We are better than

that as the region.

0:43:250:43:27

We are doing fantastically.

0:43:270:43:28

We can always do better.

0:43:280:43:29

But ultimately, we want

to do as well as we can.

0:43:290:43:32

Alan Simpson, the fact that

HS2, the HS2 route is

0:43:320:43:34

going through the East Midlands

shows that money is being spent

0:43:340:43:37

here?

0:43:370:43:38

Well, it does, but I don't think

we should spend our time

0:43:380:43:41

arguing about how much

of the East Midlands the train

0:43:410:43:43

should go underneath.

0:43:430:43:44

My worry is that I have

a different starting point.

0:43:440:43:46

Even the new electrification

of the east

0:43:460:43:48

coast main line, the West Coast

mainline, and we've got the Midland

0:43:480:43:51

route round and electrification

of that route, which has been long

0:43:510:43:54

neglected, for decades,

would have been my starting point.

0:43:540:43:56

No, I don't have a shadow

of a doubt that the

0:43:560:43:58

East Midlands gets a very poor deal

and has done historically from

0:43:580:44:01

central Government funding.

0:44:010:44:02

The transfer from the

south to the north...

0:44:020:44:04

If you want a one nation politics,

that we have to begin.

0:44:040:44:08

OK, thank you.

0:44:080:44:18

Well, politics got personal

for many people this week,

0:44:190:44:21

but there was good news for one

East Midlands politician,

0:44:210:44:24

Jason Zadrozny, has spent almost

three years fighting child

0:44:240:44:26

sex offences.

0:44:260:44:27

This week, it finally came

to court and all the charges

0:44:270:44:30

were dropped.

0:44:300:44:31

In a moment, we'll

be hearing from him.

0:44:310:44:33

But first, our political

editor Tony Rowe looks at

0:44:330:44:35

the personal and political

toll the case is taken.

0:44:350:44:45

It was one person

regularly parking on them.

0:44:450:44:47

On the double yellows?

0:44:470:44:48

On the double yellows.

0:44:480:44:49

On the streets of Ashfield

where he's from, Jason Zadrozny is

0:44:490:44:52

well-known.

0:44:520:44:53

He was about to fight the 2015

general election when he

0:44:530:44:55

got a knock on the door.

0:44:550:44:57

About 20 officers burst

into my house and

0:44:570:44:59

took over the house immediately.

0:44:590:45:00

They held me and took my phones

and every thing of me, so I couldn't

0:45:000:45:03

send messages.

0:45:030:45:04

It was just a very surreal

experience, really horrible.

0:45:040:45:07

Really horrible.

0:45:070:45:13

The allegations from one

man, he says he's never

0:45:130:45:16

met, took him to a desperate

place at times.

0:45:160:45:19

But he campaigned on.

0:45:190:45:20

I've had some dark days with it,

and anyone that was ever so slightly

0:45:200:45:23

weaker than me would genuinely find

themselves under a bus.

0:45:230:45:26

I've had some really

close calls with

0:45:260:45:27

depression and, you know, mental

health issues because of this.

0:45:270:45:30

So I think we've got

to be very careful

0:45:300:45:32

how we treat it.

0:45:320:45:33

If I hadn't got my support

network around me, I just

0:45:330:45:35

wouldn't be here now.

0:45:360:45:40

He's led the Ashfield

Independence, largely made

0:45:400:45:42

up of former Liberal Democrats

to local election success, even with

0:45:420:45:45

the accusations hanging over him.

0:45:450:45:46

He says he won't let

what has happened

0:45:460:45:48

go unanswered.

0:45:480:45:49

I've had nothing from the police.

0:45:490:45:50

They just walked away with a smile.

0:45:500:45:52

I intend, obviously,

to seek legal redress and see what

0:45:520:45:54

they say once they're in the dock.

0:45:550:46:04

We put the to the officer of

Nottinghamshire's Police and Crime

0:46:060:46:09

Commissioner Paddy Tipping.

0:46:090:46:10

They issued a one

line statement to the

0:46:100:46:12

effect that this is an entirely

operational matter and therefore one

0:46:120:46:14

for the Chief Constable.

0:46:140:46:15

The court case may be over

for Jason Zadrozny, but

0:46:150:46:18

his legal battle will continue.

0:46:180:46:19

So, Jason, we heard

there that you left

0:46:190:46:21

the Liberal Democrats and you formed

your own party, the Ashfield

0:46:210:46:24

Independence, with some

of your supporters, but given that

0:46:240:46:26

you have these horrendous

accusations hanging

0:46:260:46:27

over you for a long period

of time, what was it

0:46:270:46:30

like knocking on the doors?

0:46:300:46:31

What was like standing on doorstep

asking people for their

0:46:310:46:33

vote?

0:46:330:46:39

Well, I mean, firstly, I had to pick

myself up and dust myself

0:46:390:46:42

down.

0:46:420:46:43

It was pretty horrific.

0:46:430:46:44

The worst things you

can be accused of.

0:46:440:46:46

Luckily, I stood for election again

in a town where the grown-up and

0:46:460:46:49

where people know me, so those

people were incredibly supportive.

0:46:490:46:52

I won two elections there and I

would say the Ashfield Independence

0:46:520:46:55

have had their most successful

election since then,

0:46:550:46:59

so people in Ashfield have been

incredibly supportive,

0:46:590:47:01

and I think that's what

has got me through, really.

0:47:010:47:03

But they must have been

some awkward situations

0:47:030:47:05

on the doorstep where

you

0:47:050:47:12

didn't quite know how to react

and maybe they didn't?

0:47:120:47:15

Well, I always told the truth.

0:47:150:47:16

I mean, people asked me,

"We have seen you in the press,

0:47:160:47:19

we have seen you on the TV,

what is the truth?"

0:47:190:47:22

And I always was a honest,

I've never had anything to

0:47:220:47:24

hide about this.

0:47:240:47:25

And people always appreciated

that honesty, but it's

0:47:250:47:27

been very tough and, yeah,

there have been some very tough

0:47:270:47:30

conversations.

0:47:300:47:31

You talked about the impact this

has had on your mental

0:47:310:47:33

health.

0:47:330:47:34

Yeah, well, if you can imagine

someone with a public life.

0:47:340:47:37

I have lived my life out

in the press when this happened.

0:47:370:47:40

There was no anonymity

until people actually

0:47:400:47:42

find any evidence.

0:47:420:47:43

It was all out there and,

I mean, frankly, and I've

0:47:430:47:45

said this in a number of interviews,

it gave my father an enormous heart

0:47:450:47:54

attack and he died a couple

of weeks afterwards.

0:47:540:47:56

He never got to see me

clear my name, so not only was I

0:47:560:47:59

living my trauma in

the press, but then I had

0:47:590:48:02

the personal tragedies

to

0:48:020:48:03

deal with as well.

0:48:030:48:04

It's been a horrible

1000 days, nearly.

0:48:040:48:05

And you were a Parliamentary

candidate once.

0:48:050:48:07

Is that ambition now done with?

0:48:070:48:08

Are you finished with that?

0:48:080:48:17

Well, that ambition always

stemmed from wanting

0:48:170:48:19

to do something for Ashfield, we've

had many discussions over the last

0:48:190:48:22

ten years on this show about

Ashfield, and my ambition is still

0:48:220:48:25

to do something for Ashfield.

0:48:250:48:26

I think probably now

in 2019 the Ashfield

0:48:260:48:28

Independence can win

the

0:48:280:48:29

council elections in Ashfield,

and will deliver something from the

0:48:290:48:31

council perspective instead.

0:48:310:48:32

Well, we did imagine

that you would say

0:48:320:48:34

that, obviously.

0:48:340:48:35

Away from your specific case,

there has of course

0:48:350:48:38

been a wider issue around

politicians and their conduct this

0:48:380:48:40

week from accusations of rape,

to sexual harassment.

0:48:400:48:42

I mean, Lee, you are new to

Westminster, what do you

0:48:420:48:44

make of all this?

0:48:440:48:45

Well, it's not been

a good week for politics.

0:48:450:48:48

All of us go into

politics to try and do

0:48:480:48:50

the best that we can, to try

and achieve things in politics.

0:48:500:48:53

Politics can be force

for good when it's done

0:48:530:48:55

properly.

0:48:550:48:56

All of the allegations we've seen,

so far don't help that.

0:48:560:48:59

There are some really serious

allegations, allegations of

0:48:590:49:01

criminality, which need

to be investigated fully.

0:49:010:49:02

I think we also need

to tighten up on some of the

0:49:020:49:05

standards down in Westminster.

0:49:050:49:06

To make sure that

some of those things

0:49:060:49:08

which are talked about,

I haven't seen down

0:49:080:49:10

there yet, but which

are

0:49:100:49:11

talked about, need to be stopped...

0:49:110:49:13

I was going to say,

have you seen any of

0:49:130:49:15

this kind of behaviour,

this

0:49:150:49:16

kind of conduct?

0:49:160:49:17

Not that I've seen, but I've only

been in the early few

0:49:170:49:20

months, so I'm probably not

the right person to ask.

0:49:200:49:23

Well, let's ask Alan,

because you were an MP for

0:49:230:49:25

almost 20 years, Alan.

0:49:250:49:26

How much does this

culture need to change?

0:49:260:49:30

Oh, I think it does

need to change, and

0:49:300:49:32

the idea that Parliament can just be

a law unto itself and it's a closed

0:49:320:49:36

space for anyone else was never

helpful at the best of times.

0:49:360:49:39

So I think that that's

part of what needs

0:49:390:49:41

to happen and the imposition

of proper processes that protect the

0:49:410:49:43

person who complains

as well as treating the complaint

0:49:430:49:46

properly, rigorously and seriously

is long

0:49:460:49:47

overdue.

0:49:470:49:48

My only caveat is that I think it's

really important not to

0:49:480:49:51

allow the really serious

and substantial to be taken over by

0:49:510:49:54

something of a morass of

the trivial, because that will stop

0:49:540:49:56

Parliament doing what it is supposed

to do, which is to address really

0:49:560:49:59

big issues that affect our country

and society, so that the separation

0:49:590:50:02

of the substantial from the gossip

culture is I think one of the

0:50:020:50:05

biggest challenges that MPs

and the press have to face.

0:50:050:50:08

All sorts of stories

coming out all the time.

0:50:080:50:18

Lee, we hope this week

that there were calls

0:50:200:50:22

for an independent body for people

who work at Westminster

0:50:220:50:25

to be able to take

their concerns to.

0:50:250:50:27

It seems astonishing that this

hasn't happened before.

0:50:270:50:37

Yeah, and I think that's

something that the

0:50:380:50:43

House, authorities and the Prime

Minister are talking about.

0:50:430:50:47

I completely agree with Alan,

actually, in terms

0:50:470:50:49

of their are some really serious

allegations and very bad behaviour,

0:50:490:50:52

criminal behaviour,

which needs to be investigated.

0:50:520:50:54

We need to divorce that slightly

from the gossip that

0:50:540:50:56

has started coming out.

0:50:560:50:57

My previous life

was not in politics.

0:50:570:50:59

We had processes and

procedures by which

0:50:590:51:01

when this did happen, bearing

in mind it didn't happen very often,

0:51:010:51:03

but it did happen, that people

could go and seek to address and get

0:51:030:51:07

support.

0:51:070:51:17

We need to make sure the house

of parliament is no different

0:51:200:51:23

to any other employer in making

sure that is available.

0:51:230:51:25

I think that's what the public want.

0:51:250:51:27

They want for you to

have the same code of conduct

0:51:270:51:30

that they are expected

to live their lives by.

0:51:300:51:32

The accusations that we hear

from Westminster, Jason, seem

0:51:320:51:34

to suggest there is something very

wrong with politics.

0:51:340:51:36

What impact does that

have only ground level

0:51:360:51:38

here in the East Midlands for

example about people's perceptions

0:51:380:51:41

of politicians and what

they think about MPs?

0:51:410:51:42

I think politics has been

a dangerous place long time.

0:51:420:51:45

We had the MPs expenses scandals.

0:51:450:51:55

And then we had, now we are having

0:51:550:51:57

the same stuff.

0:51:570:51:58

It's almost like we've gone back

in the Delorean to 1992.

0:51:580:52:00

We are living their stuff over

and over again, and how can it not

0:52:000:52:04

be fixed?

0:52:040:52:05

That's why people have turned away

from politics in such a

0:52:050:52:07

big way.

0:52:080:52:09

Brexit, Donald Trump,

and in my area people voting

0:52:090:52:11

independently are fed up

with parties politics.

0:52:110:52:12

I think politics needs

to yank itself up by the

0:52:120:52:15

bootstraps and sort itself

out, otherwise we'll

0:52:150:52:16

all turn away from it.

0:52:160:52:18

Jason Zadrozny, thank you very much

for joining us in the studio.

0:52:180:52:21

Next, winter is coming,

and for hundreds

0:52:210:52:22

of thousands of people

across the East Midlands,

0:52:220:52:24

that means worrying about how

they can afford to pay

0:52:240:52:27

their heating bills.

0:52:270:52:28

The region has the third

worst figures for people

0:52:280:52:30

in poverty in the country.

0:52:300:52:31

One advice centre in

Nottingham said that

0:52:310:52:33

the problem that affects

the

0:52:330:52:34

most vulnerable people in society

who end up paying more for their

0:52:340:52:37

fuel because they cant

access cheaper deals.

0:52:370:52:38

The poverty premium

at the moment is £490 a year.

0:52:380:52:41

And that means that you pay

£490 more for essential

0:52:410:52:43

things if you are a poor.

0:52:430:52:45

Now, that doesn't seem a lot.

0:52:450:52:46

People who are working, £400,

£500, but if you're on a

0:52:460:52:49

benefit of £72 a week,

it's an extra £9 a week that

0:52:490:52:52

you are having to find a week

because you are poor.

0:52:520:52:54

Just in terms of the way

you pay your gas and electric.

0:52:540:52:57

Paying on a prepayment

meter is the most

0:52:570:52:59

expensive way to pay

for your energy.

0:52:590:53:09

This is the real problem, isn't it?

This hits the purest hardest.

There

0:53:120:53:18

is definitely something in that.

There is something that needs to be

0:53:180:53:22

salt around that. The cap is

specifically with regard to

0:53:220:53:26

prepayment. I wish the market was

working. I am a free marketeer. It's

0:53:260:53:33

not working here. The Government has

said it will step in on a temporary

0:53:330:53:38

basis to try and fix it. I welcome

those caps and I hope it saves

0:53:380:53:44

people at the end of the day.

According to the charity National

0:53:440:53:48

energy action, 13% of the people

here in the East Midlands are in

0:53:480:53:54

fuel poverty.

There has been

improvement on that the last few

0:53:540:53:58

years and there Government efforts

to end the late properties and the

0:53:580:54:04

cap has been introduced. We do have

to make this better. People should

0:54:040:54:08

be able to heat their homes. The

fact the Government is saying it's

0:54:080:54:13

trying to tackle it.

I would say in

amicable terms that actually it is a

0:54:130:54:20

shambles. We ought to...

That's not

so amicable.

I think there are a

0:54:200:54:28

part of the Conservative Party

trying to engage in this any

0:54:280:54:30

different way and all supplies of

the Labour Party. The solutions are

0:54:300:54:33

not more of what we been trying to

do badly. I left in order to try to

0:54:330:54:39

show how you could do that. It is on

this is me that I have taken MPs

0:54:390:54:46

around Germany and UC households

that are generating more energy than

0:54:460:54:53

the consumer in Denmark by law you

are not allowed to sell energy for a

0:54:530:54:56

profit. There are a whole states

that haven't had increases in their

0:54:560:55:04

fuel bills in 15 years. Why? In the

UK we have a market dominated by

0:55:040:55:11

Richt corporate interests. -- Road.

Elsewhere there are breaking it down

0:55:110:55:18

and doing it in local with an people

generate their own energy can get it

0:55:180:55:22

added by the dude today.

It was

easily not working. We don't accept

0:55:220:55:29

any conservatives that it

automatically defaults to a place

0:55:290:55:34

where we have to nationalise,

because nationalisation don't work

0:55:340:55:39

in the 60s and 70s. Some of the

things Alan was pointing out that

0:55:390:55:42

there are interesting ideas that we

need to look at how we can do that,

0:55:420:55:46

putting more it installation in,

Micro generation of energy.

Is that

0:55:460:55:56

going to happen?

It is already

happening. We all agreed

we always

0:55:560:56:01

say we have to make it happen

quicker but it's not happening?

If

0:56:010:56:07

you look at where energy subsidies

go at the moment, there is no energy

0:56:070:56:13

investment that isn't Government

funded. They are hugely being thrown

0:56:130:56:18

at the big corporate. If we are

using that money, why not use at

0:56:180:56:23

levels where communities can a

difference and become much more

0:56:230:56:30

environmentally and energy

self-sufficient?

One solution could

0:56:300:56:31

be making our homes more energy

self-sufficient. This lady has

0:56:310:56:37

fitted her home to make it as green

as possible. She has the lowest

0:56:370:56:45

water costs in the country and her

gas bill is 70p a month.

IM Penny

0:56:450:56:52

and I am co-owner of the Nottingham

E.- which is just over here. It

0:56:520:56:55

looks like a typical Victorian house

and there are millions of them all

0:56:550:57:02

over the UK. What makes mine

different is that I have cycled it

0:57:020:57:06

into an eco-home. We have solar

panels that give us 50% of our hot

0:57:060:57:12

water needs every year. The yellow

Worrell is not just render, behind

0:57:120:57:16

that is a super insulated servers

that keeps us very warm. The windows

0:57:160:57:24

are sliding sashes which are triple

glazed. Even in winter when you're

0:57:240:57:28

sat next to them, you will not feel

calls coming off them. Right from

0:57:280:57:32

the roof to the seller and the walls

and everything in between has been

0:57:320:57:38

highly insulated. These shelves are

made from water bottles. Egyptian

0:57:380:57:47

top is made from steel 100%

recycled. -- the kitchen top.

0:57:470:57:55

Underneath is a piece of recycled

pie. This looks like a normal

0:57:550:57:58

radiator and the difference is what

makes it hot. I don't have a gas

0:57:580:58:03

boiler, but I have in most is a

woodfired boiler that runs on

0:58:030:58:08

scavengers would. It saves me an

absolute fortune. It is hard work,

0:58:080:58:12

but it does really work on saving

those bills. Our bills are

0:58:120:58:18

phenomenally low. Our gas bill is

78p a month. The point of me doing

0:58:180:58:23

all this to my house has been a

really big experiment to see how far

0:58:230:58:28

I could reduce costs in my home.

That actually has a rock to do with

0:58:280:58:33

fuel poverty which is something I've

been campaigning about for many

0:58:330:58:38

years. The Government figures

projected for all homes to be

0:58:380:58:41

project late insulated and brought

up to energy efficient measures by

0:58:410:58:47

2025 if the staggering cost of £26

billion. The projected cost of cold

0:58:470:58:55

related illnesses and admissions to

the NHS in 2025 is projected to be

0:58:550:59:02

22 million. -- 22 billion. And think

that energy efficiency is just a

0:59:020:59:08

nice thing to have, it isn't. It's a

matter of life and dad.

-- life and

0:59:080:59:18

death. It could be about £50,000

these days. That is still a huge

0:59:180:59:23

commitment for anybody. £50,000.

It

is and the reality is that if we are

0:59:230:59:29

going to do things on a scale that

makes a difference to people in the

0:59:290:59:35

East Midlands and around the

country, you have to take what that

0:59:350:59:39

lady has done and roll it out on a

bigger scale. The models for doing

0:59:390:59:43

this can be found easily if you go

across and look at what happening in

0:59:430:59:50

Denmark or Germany where they

structurally address what we would

0:59:500:59:57

do would be 25 million homes that

people live in today and we have

0:59:571:00:03

low-cost, financed when to 2% over

20 to 30 years delivering

1:00:031:00:11

transformations of homes into energy

plus housing, properties that now...

1:00:111:00:15

Do you think we should be doing that

in this country?

It the bankers in

1:00:151:00:21

those countries that were saying to

us when we have gone over there, far

1:00:211:00:28

from it being a cost, this pays

ours, because all the kids who do

1:00:281:00:32

this work gets girls, jobs, they pay

taxes, where do the taxes go? They

1:00:321:00:37

come back to us.

1:00:371:00:49

We want fully insulated homes, will

energy bills, creating our own

1:00:501:00:55

energy.

How are we going to do more

about that to help people? Because

1:00:551:01:01

it's not cheap.

The Government has

already done that, they have

1:01:011:01:05

insulated over one and a half

million households. They are

1:01:051:01:08

continuing. It is going to make

things better, but the reality is,

1:01:081:01:14

but we are a country with a large

amount of debt, a large deficit, and

1:01:141:01:18

we have to find a way to pay our own

way in this world. These things are

1:01:181:01:24

fantastic, I wish we could do that,

but at the moment we are

1:01:241:01:27

constrained.

It all comes down to

money.

No, the money is there and if

1:01:271:01:34

you look at the experience of

community energy crops set up all

1:01:341:01:37

around the world, country, people

will throw their savings into it.

1:01:371:01:42

The trouble is, we are not allowed

to sell that electricity back to

1:01:421:01:46

rise out of that half the price.

,

Thank you, Alan. Thank you. Now for

1:01:461:01:52

a round-up of some of the others

reason the East Midlands. Here is

1:01:521:01:55

Tony. -- some of the other stories.

1:01:551:02:00

East Midlands Airport wants

the Government to invest more

1:02:001:02:02

in road and rail in the area

to help its

1:02:021:02:05

expansion plans.

1:02:051:02:06

The airport intends to triple

the number of passengers

1:02:061:02:08

and cargo it handles,

generating thousands of jobs.

1:02:081:02:10

A trip to Brussels for high profile

Remainer Ken Clarke.

1:02:101:02:13

The Rushcliffe MP joins

Nick Clegg and the Labour peer

1:02:131:02:15

Lord Adonis for a meeting

with the EU's chief Brexit

1:02:151:02:17

negotiator, Michel Barnier.

1:02:171:02:19

Ken, are you allowed to be here?

1:02:191:02:21

Because this isn't

a Government policy, is it?

1:02:211:02:23

It's not Government

policy, not visiting

1:02:231:02:24

Brussels.

1:02:241:02:26

The trio said they wanted a better

appreciation of what was

1:02:261:02:28

going on in the talks.

1:02:291:02:30

No cuts to services

are planned by Derby City

1:02:301:02:32

Council for the first

time in seven years,

1:02:321:02:34

but to balance the books

next

1:02:341:02:36

year, council tax is expected

to rise 5%, and there could be

1:02:361:02:38

around 100 job losses.

1:02:381:02:41

The RSPB is concerned

that in the past year

1:02:411:02:43

four birds of prey have been shot

or poisoned in Derbyshire.

1:02:431:02:46

It says its linked to

grouse shooting and wants

1:02:461:02:48

police and local authorities

to protect birds of prey.

1:02:481:02:58

And that is the Sunday Politics here

in the East Midlands. Thank you

1:02:591:03:06

to support.

1:03:071:03:08

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:081:03:11

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:111:03:13

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:131:03:15

again, you might think.

1:03:151:03:16

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:161:03:19

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:191:03:22

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:221:03:25

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:251:03:26

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:261:03:29

or more of a whimper?

1:03:291:03:30

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:301:03:32

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:321:03:33

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:331:03:36

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:361:03:39

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:391:03:45

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:451:03:49

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:491:03:52

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:521:03:56

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:561:03:59

Yes or no?

1:03:591:04:00

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:001:04:05

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:051:04:08

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:081:04:11

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:111:04:15

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:171:04:20

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:201:04:22

I think she's in control.

1:04:221:04:24

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:241:04:26

No, I don't.

1:04:261:04:27

I think she's a mess.

1:04:271:04:28

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:281:04:31

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:311:04:33

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:331:04:38

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:401:04:44

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:441:04:47

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:471:04:50

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:501:04:52

It's her birth right.

1:04:521:04:54

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:541:04:58

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:581:05:00

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:001:05:04

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:041:05:07

I think she could have done better.

1:05:071:05:09

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:091:05:11

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:111:05:13

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:131:05:15

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:151:05:17

She's doing her best.

1:05:171:05:21

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:211:05:23

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:231:05:26

Very disappointed.

1:05:261:05:29

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:291:05:34

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:341:05:37

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:371:05:39

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:391:05:42

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:421:05:44

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:441:05:46

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:461:05:49

I don't see an end to it.

1:05:491:05:52

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:521:05:55

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:551:05:58

and the result is...

1:05:581:06:02

No.

1:06:021:06:03

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:031:06:05

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:051:06:07

CHEERING

1:06:071:06:11

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:111:06:14

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:141:06:20

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:201:06:25

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:251:06:28

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:281:06:33

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:331:06:38

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:381:06:44

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:441:06:49

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:491:06:54

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:541:06:57

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:571:07:01

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:011:07:05

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:051:07:09

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:091:07:12

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:121:07:16

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:161:07:21

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:211:07:25

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:251:07:30

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:301:07:34

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:341:07:39

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:391:07:42

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:421:07:46

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:461:07:50

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:501:07:55

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:551:07:59

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:591:08:04

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:041:08:07

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:071:08:11

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:111:08:16

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:161:08:19

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:191:08:24

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:241:08:32

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:321:08:35

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:351:08:38

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:381:08:43

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:431:08:50

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:501:08:53

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:531:08:57

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:571:09:02

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:021:09:05

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:051:09:10

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:101:09:14

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:141:09:19

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:191:09:24

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:241:09:29

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:291:09:33

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:331:09:38

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:381:09:42

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:421:09:46

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:461:09:50

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:501:09:59

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:09:591:10:08

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:081:10:13

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:131:10:17

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:171:10:24

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:241:10:30

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:301:10:34

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:341:10:40

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:401:10:44

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:441:10:47

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:471:10:51

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:511:10:55

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:551:10:59

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:10:591:11:03

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:031:11:08

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:081:11:12

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:121:11:16

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:161:11:21

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:211:11:24

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:241:11:27

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:271:11:32

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:321:11:35

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:351:11:39

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:391:11:44

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:441:11:47

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:471:11:51

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:511:11:56

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:561:12:00

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:001:12:03

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:031:12:08

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:081:12:12

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:121:12:18

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:181:12:23

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:231:12:27

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:271:12:33

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:331:12:38

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:381:12:43

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:431:12:46

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:461:12:50

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:501:12:54

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:541:13:00

Philip Hammond wands that bee

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:001:13:06

are borrow up to 50 billion

merchandise more for the Government

1:13:061:13:08

to build for themselves.

1:13:081:13:10

That's all for today.

1:13:101:13:11

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:111:13:13

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:131:13:15

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:151:13:18

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:181:13:23

Sarah Smith and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. The programme includes an interview with shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith. Plus former MP George Galloway and journalist and author Peter Hitchens discuss the Russian revolution. Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott, Tom Newton Dunn are on the political panel.


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