06/10/2013 Sunday Politics East

Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

election? We talk to the Tory rebel demanding one next year, that is our

top story. As government ministers prepare to decide how the press

should be regulated, what will be You are talking about the colour of

And in the East: The Home Office You are talking about the colour of

And in the East: The Home Office find itself in a jam over foreign

He will try to force a vote in the October. Home Secretary Theresa

He will try to force a vote in the was asked about his plans on the BBC

earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need

to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put

that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a

flea bite or a real threat? I think the next election, a Conservative

Party that will be offering people that renegotiation, a new settlement

with Europe, looking to the future and putting that to the British

people in and in or out referendum. And what the amendment possibly

could do, as James Wharton, who And what the amendment possibly

putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could

jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.

Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would

have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be

time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in

2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started

negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain

and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.

You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.

the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British

people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties

here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,

I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be

good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be

referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the

referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue

that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to

deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust

deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables

in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables

this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables

is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables

the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum

within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may

within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got

your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come

forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come

to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us

more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us

our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in

2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop

this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your

party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the

Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but

Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or

not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do

not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in

that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister

has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from

scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,

re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.

this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would

this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in

the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot

get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in

our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford

the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So

Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the

people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is

a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in

the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it

the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools

or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee

housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.

But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of

help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the

months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed

to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like

Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once

the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the

high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People

might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would

the government want to make those products available then now? It

the government want to make those more what investment banks were

doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the

depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the

game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years

but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years

first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years

it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand

over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at

the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care

economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a

house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to

off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the

Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the

the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a

Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City

It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even

more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in

tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.

What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on

average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on

property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they

cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people

to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will

cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record

have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not

the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed

laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed

prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government

is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create

these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not

a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take

part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the

money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The

taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The

guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the

change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in

response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying

for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like

these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused

the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly

asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house

prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding

bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding

circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding

on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they

should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier

to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission

to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a

huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a

recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a

the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the

figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the

an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third

up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and

up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector

advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron

says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They

don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on

the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable

housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like

in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes

were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people

could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%

mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.

repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?

They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are

already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are

this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape

limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the

Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone

with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and

with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on

printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word

printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also

reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's

uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,

but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers

but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a

but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John

Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John

reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion

about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang

about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making

sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making

do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making

right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is

about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is

and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they

are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we

will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the

proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did

with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the

with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship

between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,

between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press

industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect

the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope

the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent

with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about

couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject

old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until

you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near

the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have

been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is

fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the

frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go

Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press

box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a

means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not

introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

account. When Ed Miliband rang me it regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband we were not attacking him but what

extent, what they are doing about politicians who can look after

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

got good judgment? I would say no, Thank you for joining us, he did not

even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What

is the endgame in this? Whether we sent a truck there for him. What

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy

Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before

question is, what is political unfashionable view, is that the

total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past

those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in

being too close to editors and proprietors. You said that Adam

Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a smile. Is the Daily Mail also a

Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,

I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I

think... I should say I used to and now the evil Daily Mail! I

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

common ground between the three so-called press industry version.

What the Daily Mail has done is ensured that the Prime Minister

What the Daily Mail has done is What is going to happen this week is

that the press Royal Charter has to be considered first, and that will

probably be rejected. The Privy Council will reject it. Then the

three party Royal Charter will come up, but meanwhile the press will set

up their own regulatory body because the Royal Charter is not a proper

statutory underpinning, they will be able to go ahead with that. There

statutory underpinning, they will be will be the legal basis for the

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

all those vested interests are people that you would expect a

left-wing politician to want to people that you would expect a

on. It is also more significant about who he has stood up for, and

the person he has studied for is his father. Maybe people thought of

the person he has studied for is his as a Marxist, now they think of

the person he has studied for is his as war hero. He gets to the crux of

matters, you know! You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in

Hello. At a time when we celebrate gathering in the harvest, there is

doubt —— trouble on the farm. Growers are angry at a decision to

scrap a popular works dream the students. It is a scheme that has

worked well. It is a shame to see the whole thing being binned so

easily. In the Fens, there is mounting

pressure to act against the exploitation of migrant workers. The

BBC investigation uncovers serious breaches of UK employment law.

Do you think the condition your tenants live in our good enough? Can

you go please. Can the Tories pass the Bridget

Jones test as are most favourite Singleton makes a comeback.

We start with an investigation which sends alarm bells running through

the Fens. We uncovered disturbing evidence of the widespread abuse of

migrant workers. The allegation is, unscrupulous gang masters were

recruiting workers from Eastern Europe with promises of rich

pickings. The shocking truth is many of these recruits were housed in

appalling conditions and were paid well below the minimum wage. That is

an offence under UK employment law. Are you taking their wages? No, I

don't take anything. This is a story of exploitation,

intimidation and bribery. Our investigation has found evidence of

illegal gang masters are still exploiting migrants in the Fens.

This is one of the worst houses. The ceiling is falling in, water is

dripping down and there is mould everywhere. The smell is

indescribable. I certainly wouldn't want to live here. We have evidence

you are at ring as an illegal gang master. Maybe the police have

evidence, but not you. We have Lisa Duffy, she is the mayor

of the UKIP strong county. Alongside her is Stuart Jackson, Conservative

MP for Peter borough. A lot of these problems happening not far from you

in Wisbech. What do you make of that? It is appalling. I think

Operation Pheasant, happening, the partnership group, eight different

authorities to come together to fight against this problem in our

region is a good thing. But where are the prosecutions? We have The

Gang Masters Licensing Authority. There is legislation, why isn't it

working? There is good cooperation between the agencies. I do think the

wider picture is, we need to be working on reducing the pool factor

of people coming from Eastern Europe. We need to make it clear

they need to work in legitimate as Mrs and cannot claim benefit so we

are reducing the numbers. No one can excuse the appalling conditions they

are housed in. I have two play tribute to Mike Coley, the local MP

who has been campaigning on this issue. —— my colleague. How can we

do this when people from Romania and Bulgaria are free to come to the UK?

We are expect thing a big influx from Romania and Bulgaria. We need

to deal with the problem here and now and take action. I agree totally

with what the MP, Steve Barclay is doing in Wisbech and supported. Do

you think people will be shocked they are paying the price through

the price of fruit and veg, they are paying the price for this sort of

Labour or do you think they will pay more for fruit and veg? Nobody wants

to see this behaviour. Illegal gang masters should end up in prison. We

have some rogue landlords in Peter borough and they should feel the

full weight of the law. Most of them come to make a better life for

themselves, decent working people do not deserve to be treated in this

way. The basis of this is the ludicrous decision of the Labour

Party in 2004 to have no controls on immigration for the European Union.

We said there would be problems with the labour market and the issue of

public services and infrastructure. That is what has happened. On this

occasion it is housing, but there is education and health.

Not all farmers rely on gang masters. A lot of it is staffed by

overseas students. At present they are hired on a government programme

called This Season Agricultural Programme. But from January it is

being abolished. The government says there is no need for it and in any

case they want more UK citizens to fill the vacancies.

A group of vulgar Aryan and Romanian fruit pickers on this farm at

Tiptree. This is where they make the world—famous jam. This 24—year—old

student has been coming over here to pick fruit the six years under the

scheme. She is up at first light, works eight hours a day and can earn

around 320 pounds a week before tax. We are living in the camp, so I have

made a lot of friendships. Not only Bulgarian, so I have met different

people here. This farm have employed foreign workers since 1953. They

have come from all over the world to work in Essex and the scheme has

always worked well. Fruit yields have been good. Flavour has been

good. This is the farm director and he is worried when this scheme comes

to an end, he will struggle to get enough reliable workers to pick the

fruit. We are licensed by the Home Office and monitored by the Home

Office. I come to see us several times a year. So great

disappointment and frustration because it has worked well,

everybody acknowledged it worked well. It is a shame to see it end so

easily. What will happen when it is scrapped in January? Workers from

Eastern Europe will still be able to come here. But the government says

it will able to help unemployed, UK residents. Although many people in

this sector find it laughable. Many workers are not as reliable and

efficient and cannot make it within the industry. It is sad, because we

would like to employ more British workers. Will 20,000 British people

come and work in this sector? I don't think so, no. The people we

employ in this industry are migrant labour. They stay less than six

months and they don't even register on the immigration figures. Getting

rid of these workers makes no difference to immigration. What do

think the government are doing? Playing to the crowd? That is our

fear. We know the results the government had in the elections

earlier in the year and are great fear is we have been caught in the

crossfire. Can I have a look in. This lady shares a static caravan

with three others. The community centre has a kitchen, laundry and

cooking facilities. The farm is disappointed at what they say is the

government's short—term decision. They would never take production

abroad to somewhere like Spain, but other growers say that is a real

possibility. I know the Home Office have been

talking to you about this. We saw it is popular with farmers, popular

with students and it gives work. White abolish it? Immigration is the

issue. It is number one in the east, an issue most people are concerned

about. Local employers have a social responsibility. I commend the

company for providing accommodation for their workforce. You cannot make

an impact on welfare reform to get young people off benefits into work,

if you import of people on a special scheme, a sweetheart deal between

the farmers and government. Is it a sweetheart deal or is it a scheme

that was working very well? The farmers say they need people who are

trained, speed is of the essence when working with fruit and

vegetables. Shouldn't those views be important? They are important and

there has been consultation on the changes that are going to be made.

But it is important they go into Jobcentres and meet British workers,

train them and bring them on board and pay them a decent wage. They

have a social responsibility. Just importing low skilled foreign

workers while we have thousands of youngsters parked on benefits is no

way to drive economic growth. Farmers say it is a six—month

contract, and the workers are committed the six months, will that

work in reality in the open job market? People can come and work in

horticulture and food processing. The government is bringing an end to

this particular scheme. We all have a social responsibility to get

people off benefits, off welfare and into work and also control

immigration, which is a major concern amongst my constituents.

Farmers say local people don't want to do this work. They all say that.

They are making plenty of money, paying taxes to the Treasury and the

people they employ are happy. In my city we are having to Howes, provide

health service and education service. There has to be a social

contract between business and government and the people coming to

work here. Lisa Duffy, the Observer newspaper quoted Abul Garey and

government source as saying its citizens were brought over here to

do things like fruit picking because UK citizens are too lazy to do the

work. Are they lazy people where you live? There are lazy people were

anybody lives. What I would have wanted to have seen was the scheme

phased out, so at the moment there is a certain level that are able to

come in for the six—month period. I would like to have seen it phased

out so the farmers have a sense of not nervousness of them losing these

workers. Quite rightly, British young people are not taking those

jobs on for six months. They need to know they have got these workers for

six months at a time so they can produce and deliver on time. We need

to keep the work in this country and not have it going abroad to Spain.

Isn't there a danger the growing itself could transfer abroad? That

is not the case because people will always come to this country because

of the English language, because of the free labour market, the capacity

to improve yourself. We are not turning people away who are highly

skilled and in well—paid jobs. While we have thousands of young people

who are parked on benefits who need training and support and the work,

that is a priority. I remain to be convinced companies will make

long—term, substantial business decisions on the basis of ending

this scheme when they can already recruit. This was a perfectly

workable scheme which has been caught up in the immigration issue

which UKIP has been part of stoking the flames of. Do you agree with

that statement? Yes, in our region immigration is a huge problem. 1st

of January there is a nervousness of how many Romanians and Bulgarians

welcome over. We have to manage it. They are taking some of the jobs are

British and people don't take. But we need to encourage young people to

take these jobs. They need to earn higher wages so that puts the

products up. Do you think this scheme has been the victim of the

immigration issue? The immigration minister and Theresa May have made a

brave decision, supported by The Migration Advisory Committee. Make

it clear you come to this country to study or work. No free lunches, you

don't get free health care and free housing. That is the way it is.

Party canvassers know immigration is high on the agenda of voters. Tory

MPs in the marginal seats are right to worry about the impact of UKIP

rivals. At the Conservative party conference, the subject of UKIP

fringed in the bars were Nigel Farage talked about Conservative MPs

in our region who might be interested in some form of pact.

UKIP's appeal, whether it is on the European question, whether it is on

mass, open—door immigration. Whether it is our desire to bring back

grammar schools and give working class kids in poor areas a chance to

get on. Whether it is on all these issues, UKIP connects, not just with

traditional Tories, but it connects across the political spectrum. Peter

Bowen and Jacob, have made the running with the idea that why can't

we have haps, in some areas, a co—operation that takes place at

local level between UKIP associations and Tory, or perhaps

even Labour local associations? At the moment UKIP is destroying the

chances of an in out referendum. Somehow you have to move to gather.

You have to get them to work together somehow. I am a

conservative and I hope UKIP will endorse conservatives and in return,

give David Cameron is huge majority. You are one of those MPs who were

not mind a UKIP endorsements? We will have one of the most

ideological elections coming up in 2015, the 20 years. The choice UKIP

have as a party is are they going to stand candidates against people like

me who voted against more powers to the European Union. If they do that

they will elect a Euro fanatical Labour MP, destroy any chances of an

EU referendum and put Ed Balls and Ed Miliband in charge of the country

via a Labour government and we will have high debt, high borrowing and

high interest rates for mortgages. I am interested to know how this would

work on a practical level. What would it take to persuade you as a

party not to put a candidate up? What Nigel was talking about is

working at a local level together, which we are already being seen

being done on our county councils where we want them to work together

for the best interests of the community. Surely at a national

level you would want to veto and know what was going on at the local

level? We would know exactly what is going on. We should do what is right

for the people you are representing. In terms of standing against the

likes of Stuart, who are clearly of the same mindset of us, we would

like to say, come across. You are working underneath a Euro fanatic

leader. Stewart, let's go for dinner and have a discussion. You have zero

MPs. I'll eat my hat on this programme live if you get to MPs in

a general election. There will not be a UKIP government. But you will

knock out some good Eurosceptic MPs to put Labour in. We are in spirit

as one, but there are ways of delivering. You are not moving

across, but Lisa Duffy, would you put up a candidate against Stuart

Jackson? I have been in a meeting this morning looking at the

elections over the next 90 months, we will be standing against the

likes of Stuart. —— 19 months. Their leader is wanting to stay within the

European Union. This by—election, the Euro election coming up will be

the country's referendum. This is UKIP all over. They punch David

Cameron on the nose to feel good about it. About 70% are not

conservatives. What conversation would you like to have? My

conversation is not with Lisa Duffy, who I'm sure isn't Admiral

Conservative in another constituency. —— isn't Admiral

person. They will put Ed Miliband in Downing Street. If they want but,

never to have an opportunity for a referendum, high welfare costs,

open—door immigration again, that is the choice UKIP have. Are you

prepared to potentially let Labour candidates in? No, we're asking for

the British people to vote with their heads and hearts and see there

is an alternative. We are consistently coming place where the

north or south of the country. We are becoming the party of opposition

in by—elections. We are building the vote share and people are seen UKIP

have common—sense policies and will deliver what they say they will

deliver. No handshakes today? I am an authentic, long—standing

principles Eurosceptic and I think UKIP should join my party.

The conference season has had its share of protests, both inside and

out. Hundreds of health protesters from

around the region joined the 50,000 strong march at the start of the

Conservative conference in Manchester. It is no longer going to

be an NHS, it will be a private health service. More demonstrations

followed later in the week when teachers held a strike and hundreds

of schools in the region closed. The people who suffer are the children.

I have some of the most disadvantaged children in the

region. But better news as new regulation aimed at stopping the

plague of metal that came into force as a Stevenage firm helped draw up

the new rules. Cash is not available, we have do have ID and

proof of address. We can trace every bit of metal that comes through the

doors. As the Conservative conference drew to a close, a new

Richard Jones hit the shelves. Let's remind ourselves what UKIP

said about Labour and the Conservatives.

It is perfectly so obvious Labour stands for sharing, kindness, days,

single mothers and Nelson Mandela as opposed to praying, see men having

affairs with everyone left right and centre and going to the Ritz in

Paris and telling the presenters of on the today programme.

Stuart Jackson, are their brain, bossy men in your party? No, that is

a caricature. To ascribe those values to every Conservative MP or

member is not a very nice caricature and not true. Lisa Duffy, can you

imagine a single mother on benefits voting for UKIP? Yes I can. We are

talking to single mothers, single women, women of all ages coming

across to UKIP for common—sense policies. Do you have to do anything

as Conservatives to make the party more inclusive? We have driven up

the number of women members and members of polity —— members of

Parliament. We are a one nation party. Same for UKIP? Absolutely. We

have to leave it there. You can keep in touch on the website, where you

will find in touch on the website, where you

We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we

have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to

controversy, a former UKIP MEP he recently lost his party's whip after

a series of outbursts including receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'

and joking that a group of UKIP women who didn't clean behind their

fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in independent but remains a UKIP party

member. Here's a flavour of recent events in the political life of

Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly be giving £1 million a month...

Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails within 12 hours, only 47 were not

agreeing with me so you are the within 12 hours, only 47 were not

that is out of touch. Everybody knows me, a bit like the Marmite

joke, they love me or they hate knows me, a bit like the Marmite

but I have always told me like it is. I made a joke and said that

women who did not clean behind the French were sluts and everybody

laughed along, including the women. I have had hundreds of e-mails,

saying, God Almighty, can't you I have had hundreds of e-mails,

a joke any more? I am long in the correctness and I understand UKIP

have moved on and they are doing well, and I wish them well. This,

with no black faces on it. You are picking people out for the colour of

with no black faces on it. You are their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps

the way they are doing things now is disgrace me. We are joined now with

a suitable distance between us by the independent MEP for Yorkshire

and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You said this weekend that you have

and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You be a complete sociopath to be in

politics, are you a sociopath? No, I am just an ordinary bloke from the

rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to

rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of

the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I

member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your

conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your

same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward

and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my

country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and

country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game

in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been

liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of

perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a

one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe

meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything

Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or

me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,

and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect

that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?

Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?

have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to

have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You

in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in

in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't

of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as

European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason

for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked

Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics

in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet

table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,

whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to

promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female

in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally

amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without

amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to

change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?

personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,

personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?

personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend

personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will

change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference

season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband

season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?

I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the

latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you

wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the

living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are

booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but

booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on

about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband

making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under

their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And

you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that

will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are

people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still

forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he

in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of

references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of

Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,

living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the

same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would

be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their

conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they

could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it

generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I

generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.

What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you

they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework

that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones

after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also

pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go

ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will

ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.